The Curiosity Shop with Brené Brown and Adam GrantSober AF, Michael Scott Phobia, and How to Politely End a Conversation
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
55 min read · 10,656 words- 0:00 – 5:00
What Are We Talking About Today?
- BBBrené Brown
Three topics for today. One, let's chat sobriety and my 30 years. I, I have some interesting thoughts I wanna run by you. Two-
- AGAdam Grant
The Office
- BBBrené Brown
... we're going to talk about not just The Office, but why I'm incapable of watching shows that people love. And three, we'll talk about the art and science of gently leaving conversations.
- AGAdam Grant
Love it.
- BBBrené Brown
How's that sound?
- AGAdam Grant
I mean, that's the perfect way-
- BBBrené Brown
Okay
- AGAdam Grant
... to exit this conversation, [laughs] is to talk about how to get out of one.
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs] [upbeat music] Hi, everyone. I'm Brené Brown.
- AGAdam Grant
And I'm Adam Grant.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay. Um, I thought we'd start with a new question, because John and Julie Gottman, who I absolutely love the Gottmans' work, are celebrating their 30th anniversary, and they taught me this question. I use it with Steve. It's such a good question. What's on your heart and mind?
- AGAdam Grant
Am I supposed to have different answers to both?
- BBBrené Brown
I don't know. It depends on how far apart they live in your mind-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
... in your body, I guess. But, um, what's on your heart and mind today, this week, that we can talk about?
- AGAdam Grant
Well, 30 years. I mean, did you forget your post?
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, yes. Uh, John and Julie-
- AGAdam Grant
Sobriety
- BBBrené Brown
... Gottman are celebrating their 30th anniversary, and I am cele- I'm celebrating 30 years of sobriety.
- AGAdam Grant
Congratulations, Brené.
- BBBrené Brown
Thank you. It's really exciting.
- AGAdam Grant
Definitely want to talk about that.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay, we'll talk about sobriety. I am, I am dying to talk to [laughs] you about this conversation. I've had a, a small version of it with you, and then I spent an hour and a half talking to my kids, so Charlie, Ellen, and Ellen's new husband, JT. I, I, I spent, like, an hour talking to them about this. I cannot watch the shows that y'all all love, starting with The Office, which is a collection of some of my favorite actors of all time, but I, I cannot watch it. And so I wanna get into why I can't watch it, and then I need you to cure me.
- AGAdam Grant
I definitely need to cure you. I'm not okay with this. You have to watch The Office.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay. And then the last thing-
- AGAdam Grant
Oh
- BBBrené Brown
... we're gonna talk... Oh, what? Tell me.
- AGAdam Grant
Well, there, there's one other thing I wanna talk about, which is we were at a conference-
- BBBrené Brown
Okay
- AGAdam Grant
... together, and you-
- 5:00 – 16:30
Sober AF: Celebrating 30 Years of Sobriety
- BBBrené Brown
that my sobriety, I attribute my sobriety to the final project, one of the final projects in my MSW program, my Master's of Social Work program, was to create a family genogram. Are you familiar with a genogram?
- AGAdam Grant
No.
- BBBrené Brown
It's a map of your family that uses different shapes and arrows and dotted lines to understand the relationships, and sometimes a therapist will say, "Let's do a, l- tell me about your family," and the notes that they're taking is a genogram. So they'll have, like, disrupted lines showing hard relationships. And so we had to do a genogram for this class, and I thought, "This is interesting." A geno- not a genia, a genogram. It's genogram.
- AGAdam Grant
Genogram. You were trying to turn it into, like-
- BBBrené Brown
Genie
- AGAdam Grant
... a genie coming out of a magic lamp. [laughs] A genogram-
- BBBrené Brown
I was
- AGAdam Grant
... will grant all your wishes
- BBBrené Brown
... a genogram. Yeah, like something you send somebody on their birthday.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
So I started working on it, and I got confused when I got to extended family, so I called my mom.And I said, "Where is this person?" "Oh, dead. Um, alcoholism." And, "Oh, okay, got it. So what about these two people?" "Oh, both dead. Cir- uh, cirrhosis of the liver and, uh, alcoholism." And, and I, I s- I was like, oh, my God. What is happening in this, this... You know, it's like shake the family tree, and all the alcoholics fall out. Um, I, I kept thinking, "What's happening?" And I- I, I, I guess I was just ready, and I wanted something different for my life and my history, and that scared me, and I knew my propensity to... You're at the age in graduate school where are you a fun party girl, or is there a problem emerging? Um, and so my, my, l- the last time I drank was the night of my... I graduated from my, with my master's degree, and I was hungover and late to Mother's Day brunch the next day at my mom's.
- AGAdam Grant
Oof.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. And I thought that combined... You know, it was funny 'cause, like, when you're a fifth-generation Texan, you just hear kind of stories and, and about outlaws and folklore heroes in your family. But then when you, you know, you sit down and you map it out, you're like, wow, there's a lot of addiction and mental health issues, really. Turned into funny stories, but not so funny.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
And so I gave up smoking and drinking. I went to my first meeting that Monday. Graduated from Saturday. Mother's Day was Sunday. Went to my first meeting. And you're supposed to find, like, a sponsor, and of course, I have the rule book. And so this woman said, "Let's go grab dinner after the meeting." And I told her my story, and she looked up and she said, "I believe you have the poo-poo platter of addictions. I need you to stop drinking, using food to comfort yourself, and stop involving yourself in all of your family's problems and issues." I was like, "Well, shit. I'm gonna have a lot of time on my hands."
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Um, and then that was it. Then I worked the AA proble- uh, uh, AA program. I went to meetings all the time for about a year and a half and was also working on that stuff in therapy, and have been sober since.
- AGAdam Grant
It's incredible. First of all, congratulations.
- BBBrené Brown
Thank you.
- AGAdam Grant
Secondly-
- BBBrené Brown
Thanks. It's-
- AGAdam Grant
No, go ahead.
- BBBrené Brown
No, it's, um... I posted about it, which we can... It is a weird thing. I posted about it on social for a really weird reason. I, I, I sometimes post things like that and sometimes don't. Um, the number of people that have come up to me over the last 15 years and said, "You sharing your story really helped me get sober, and putting a face on it that's different really allowed me to get help." And so I had to weigh kind of, it feels private, but at the same time, hearing other people's stories really helped me, so it was interesting. I have to say, it's got a million impressions on, on LinkedIn, and thousands and thousands and thou- I mean, just thousands of people engaging with it, leaving comments, but a lot of people... In the picture on LinkedIn, I'm holding a coffee cup that says, "Sober AF," and on LinkedIn, people were just putting their date and Sober AF.
- AGAdam Grant
Wow.
- BBBrené Brown
And it was so shocking. So many people wrote how much shame is still attached to talking about being sober, especially in a work environment. And, and again, you'll know whether it's safe for you or not if you're listening or watching. But I don't know. It was hopeful for me.
- AGAdam Grant
Well, look at you normalizing vulnerability yet again.
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs] Hate it. Fuck it.
- AGAdam Grant
I, I have to, I have to tell you, there's something that, that's really amazing about your story that I don't think, I, I don't think gets talked about enough, I don't know if I've ever heard it talked about, which is people always say you have to hit rock bottom in order to begin making a change, and i- you didn't do that at all. Like, you, it, it sounds like-
- BBBrené Brown
I had a, I had a high bottom. Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] Yeah, but-
- 16:30 – 28:22
Grieving for Joy
- BBBrené Brown
form a tight circle around that person, reach out, go to meetings. But we know from the research that if someone gets promoted or engaged or something really exciting happens, they're as or more likely to relapse.
- AGAdam Grant
Really?
- BBBrené Brown
Yes. Because they're so overwhelmed by the positive emotion that they've also been numbing, and the community doesn't surround that person in that moment because there's not a hard time, so they're alone in these incredibly, excruciatingly vulnerable feelings of joy, optimism, and gratitude, which they also don't have experience feeling. And so it can lead to relapse. I mean, to me, the hardest thing I've had to learn how to do was not grief or shame, but joy. That's the hardest for me.
- AGAdam Grant
Why?
- BBBrené Brown
Because I want to just rehearse tragedy when it happens. I call... You know, in the, our research, we call it foreboding joy. So when something good happens, I immediately feel this quiver of danger. I, this is gonna be taken away from me. Um, something bad's gonna happen to balance this out. I'm gonna get sucker punched by pain if I let my guard down, so I push away joy, and that, that was the hardest part of my recovery.
- AGAdam Grant
Wow.
- BBBrené Brown
I can tell you this. In our research, we found that 90, over 90% of parentsWhile feeling a very overwhelming love for their children immediately picture something terrible happening to their children. You're tucking a baby in at night, you're overwhelmed with love and joy, and then you immediately picture something horrible happening. It's the same thing. It's-
- AGAdam Grant
That feels different to me.
- BBBrené Brown
Say how, tell me how.
- AGAdam Grant
Well, lo- love and the fear of loss, I think those go hand-in-hand. Like, joy, I'm having a good time, [laughs] like, what is there to worry about?
- BBBrené Brown
Um, I think joy for me would not be I'm having a good time. That might be happiness or pleasure or something like that. But real joy to me is, like, like this weekend I was, I was with Steve, all... It's so fun to say all three of the kids now that Ellen, now that I've got a new birdie in the nest with a son-in-law. Um, and we all went out on the boat. It was a great day. Um, it was just fun. And then I remember the kids, the older kids saying, "We're gonna head home." And I was like, "Call me as soon as you get there." Um, I think there's a real vulner- I think joy is the most vulnerable emotion we experience.
- AGAdam Grant
Really?
- BBBrené Brown
Um-
- AGAdam Grant
I'm so surprised-
- BBBrené Brown
For sure
- AGAdam Grant
... by this.
- BBBrené Brown
No. Yeah, hands down. I think joy is incredibly vulnerable. And some people would say it's like waiting for the other shoe to drop. It's just in moments of joy if we're not practiced in... The people who can lean into joy, we found had one thing in common, and that's a very strong gratitude practice, that when they're in joy they can say, "I'm really grateful for this moment."
- AGAdam Grant
Is, is that even necessary though? Because-
- BBBrené Brown
Yes. I, I, I think yes
- AGAdam Grant
... I, I, when I think about great moments of joy, like, you're so absorbed in the moment that you don't even have to think about feeling [laughs] grateful for it.
- BBBrené Brown
Mm. I would say for the majority of people we've interviewed, real true joy, deep joy, like, the, a spiritual sense of being interconnected and love is vulnerable. Yeah. I think it's, I think maybe, maybe not for everyone, but when n- over 90% of parents say, "Yeah, the deepest moments of joy are, trigger insane fear in me," um, I think it's the same thing. But I can't think of a moment... You know, see if you can make sense of this. This is interesting. I'm so, and I'm so, I'm so curious about your reaction to all this. One of the things we found in our early research is that some people choose to never get too high in emotion or too low, and the reason why they don't get too high in emotion is they don't want to feel disappointment.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
So they choose to live disappointed rather than feel disappointed. You know, they choose just to think, "Eh, it's okay right now, but it'll be bad in a little bit," or, "This is nice now, but it'll turn soon." Um, and I just, I harken back to an interview with a man who was in his 70s, and he and his wife were in a c- an automobile acci- a- accident, and she was killed.
- AGAdam Grant
Mm.
- BBBrené Brown
And he said his greatest, he told me his greatest regret was never leaning into the great moments out of fear that they'd be taken away, because now he had not accumulated those across his life. So I-
- AGAdam Grant
It's a gut punch.
- BBBrené Brown
It's a gut punch. Yeah. And so I do think there's a vulnerability to letting, to giving over to love and joy that's real.
- AGAdam Grant
[Instrumental music] This show is brought to you by Geico. We've talked a good amount on this show about dealing with uncertainty. It's about being prepared, yes, but it's deeper than that. It's a balance of fortifying your mental attitude while getting ready in the practical sense. It's about identifying the outcome you want, and then securing for yourself and your people some solid insurance. In other words, building the kind of foundation that can handle what may come. For a lot of things in life, the dealing with uncertainty toolkit involves having the right insurance partner. That's where Geico comes in. They've spent decades showing up for their customers again and again with real savings and genuinely great customer service from people who truly care. Knowing that if something goes wrong when you're on the road, you're not on your own. You're covered. If there's one thing you can be certain about, it's that Geico will show up for you when it matters. In the face of uncertainty, it feels good to be prepared. It feels good to Geico. But we have to talk about The Office, which gives me, I thought, a lot of joy. [laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs] Well, it could, for sure. Um, good television, good film, good music brings me a ton of joy. It gives me a feeling of inextricable human connection.
- AGAdam Grant
Same.
- 28:22 – 43:18
Why Can’t Brené Watch The Office?
- BBBrené Brown
kids were disrespectful to their parents. Like-
- AGAdam Grant
Wow
- BBBrené Brown
... and we could watch... Yeah, I saw Smokey and the Bandit with my grandmother, who was like a Pearl beard-drinkin', cigarette-smokin', um, like, no-boundaries person, and I, uh, even when I got home from my San Antonio summer, I was grounded for four weeks for watching a PG movie, when I was 15 probably. Yeah. Like, we just, we're very strict, and so I don't, maybe I didn't learn to differentiate, but I don't think it's that. Maybe I'm just visually porous.
- AGAdam Grant
I believe that.
- BBBrené Brown
I wanna pose this moral question. Is there something wrong with me because I can't watch Game of Thrones, or is there something wrong with the people who can watch it because they can watch it?
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] Well, there's a lot more of them than there are of you, so I guess something wrong with could be defined multiple ways.
- BBBrené Brown
I, I don't care about population. I mean, like, is, is it, is it okay that I'm not desensitized to vio- violence?
- AGAdam Grant
I am, I'm really-
- BBBrené Brown
So maybe no one's wrong. Maybe no one's wrong.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, I was gonna say, I don't, I don't see this as a moral issue at all.
- BBBrené Brown
Right. Me neither.
- AGAdam Grant
I watched the first two seasons of Game of Thrones and thought it was really interesting and well done but found the violence too gratuitous and didn't wanna go on. I d- I did-
- BBBrené Brown
But why did you just tell yourself it's like a rollercoaster?
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, I did.
- BBBrené Brown
If it was-
- AGAdam Grant
But the image is just, like, I was just like, "Ah, there, there's a lot of good content out there, and a lot of the shows I watch I'm not ambivalent about, so I don't need to engage with this one."
- BBBrené Brown
Okay, you gotta stop. I'm gonna take you back. You just said and went like this. The images were like eh, ew. Like, let's go back to that moment. What, unpack that for me. The images were what?
- AGAdam Grant
I mean, it's, it, how would I describe it? It's like-It's gross and it's a little upsetting. And it's not like watching a Civil War movie where there's a reason for depicting it. Like, you don't have to show me all this. It, it felt like, it felt like the, [laughs] the gore version of clickbait. Whereas when you watch The Office, it serves a purpose. Like, [laughs] they're making a point.
- BBBrené Brown
Wow.
- AGAdam Grant
I don't know, maybe-
- BBBrené Brown
I'm just realizing just how, how subjective all this is, right?
- AGAdam Grant
It is, 'cause y- I guess, you know, as I, as I listen t- [laughs] to, to this discussion, or as I, as I reflect on what I just said, I think that maybe Game of Thrones was trying to make a point about the brutality of the world that they were depicting. But I don't know that that point [laughs] needs to be made, or at least it doesn't need to be made to me. Uh, whereas you, you don't get The Office without awkwardness, and Brené, you are the queen of awkward. Like, it's in your tagline, "Stay brave," and you say, "Stay awkward." So don't you wanna raise your awkwardness tolerance?
- BBBrené Brown
Is it the ... Oh, I, I don't even wanna say this out loud. [laughs] It makes me ... I don't re- I don't, I don't even think I wanna know this about myself, 'cause I'm trying to think about whether it's the awkwardness or the rule-breaking-
- AGAdam Grant
Hmm
- BBBrené Brown
... that's really hard for me. You know, it's like, I, I ... And, and I'm not talking about pol- political correctness because, I mean, that doesn't really bother me and I can find a lot of humor in that sometimes. Um, but when you said maybe they were trying to, maybe in Game of Thrones they were trying to teach a lesson or make a point about the brutality of the world they had created, maybe ... But it, but I don't need to learn that lesson. Maybe it's for me, maybe with The Office they're trying to make a point about the just terrible idea of putting groups of people together in the workplace and expecting it to go well. I don't know what the point is, but that's funny. But they don't need to make it to me. I already know that, and I don't ... And, and I just think it's the ... It could be, like, my, the firstborn-
- AGAdam Grant
Higher
- BBBrené Brown
... rule following.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Do you know what I mean?
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- 43:18 – 49:30
Loving or Hating Violating the Rules
- AGAdam Grant
just say, like, "Excuse me for a second," and then give someone a reason to walk away. I was like, "Okay, this is a skill that you have that I wanna learn." How do you leave a conversation without making somebody else feel bad?
- BBBrené Brown
Okay, I, I'm still, like, shocked about the workout person that came in, saw people working out, and jumped into a nine-minute story.
- AGAdam Grant
It was, uh, I, I... That was, yeah, it was shocking, and he was not reading the room at all.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay. So I, I've, I've been thinking about it, and I did pull an interesting lit review, which, where I actually think is helpful to talk about some of the research, because I didn't really have words for what I did until I read the literature. The way I always think about it in my mind was, I always thought about it, even tried to teach it to my kids with this metaphor. Pull the Banda- rip the Band-Aid off and leave some relational sticky.
- AGAdam Grant
Ooh.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
Tell me more.
- BBBrené Brown
That's how I always thought about it. Like, I'm going to, I'm gonna exit stage left when I'm ready and when I need to, but I am gonna do it in a way that's highly relational. And so had I not read the lit review preparing for this conversation, I wouldn't have understood what I was doing. So this is, like, a win for research. So, um, I'm, I'm gonna do these things. I didn't know they were, they, I didn't know they had names. Have you ever had that experience with research? Like, you're like, "Here's what I do intuitively-"
- AGAdam Grant
All the time
- BBBrené Brown
... "and then here's..." Isn't that wild?
- AGAdam Grant
Love it.
- BBBrené Brown
God, I love g- I love it so... Why do I love it so much?
- AGAdam Grant
It's-
- BBBrené Brown
It's like-
- AGAdam Grant
... it's both validating and enlightening at the same time.
- BBBrené Brown
Yes. Okay. So-
- AGAdam Grant
I feel seen, and also now I can talk about it.
- BBBrené Brown
Yes, it gives me language. 'Cause, you know, it's not helpful to say, "Well, just you gotta rip off the conversation and like a Band-Aid, Adam, but just make sure you leave some relational stickiness on that person when you pull it off." Like, you're like, "Not helpful," right?
- AGAdam Grant
Not yet.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, it's not that.
- AGAdam Grant
Keep going.
- BBBrené Brown
It's not that. N- right. [laughs] Not yet. Okay. So here, here's the... And we're gonna put all of this research in the show notes so you can go to the actual articles. But, um, here are some interesting things I learned. The polite assumption that they wanna keep talking is almost always wrong based on the research. Exiting earlier is usually doing the other person a favor. It's not a slight.
- AGAdam Grant
Ah, I love framing this-
- BBBrené Brown
And so this was a study-
- AGAdam Grant
... as pro-social.
- BBBrené Brown
Yes. I, it, it was a landmark study of 932 conversations.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, wait. Is this-
- BBBrené Brown
Um-
- AGAdam Grant
... Mastroianni and Gilbert?
- BBBrené Brown
Ye- yes, it is.
- 49:30 – 1:03:40
The Art of Leaving Conversations Respectfully
- BBBrené Brown
collaboratively end something. I just do it intuitively. So I will say, "Oh, shoot. It was so good to see you. I've gotta run. Can't wait to catch up again."
- AGAdam Grant
Much harder when-
- BBBrené Brown
I, I'm just going-
- AGAdam Grant
... you're in the same captive location. [laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
So I was thinking about the conference where we both were. Even if I've gotta run from one huddle of people talking or just one other person to another one-on-one that i- is literally 10 feet away, I will still do this. "Oh, shoot, I just saw so-and-so. I promised them I'd give them some information. It was so good to catch up. Glad we get to be at the conference together. I'll see you soon." Tell me about these four steps for you.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, I like, I like them a lot. I think in, in, actually to go back to the Gottmans, in Gottman language, you're making a bid that-
- BBBrené Brown
You're making a bid
- AGAdam Grant
... all, like, it, here's a bid. Like, I'm sending you a message that I would love to collaborate in wrapping up this conversation. And unless you're oblivious or from a different culture or neurodivergent, you're gonna pick up that signal and start collaborating to, to close it out because it would be very awkward to drag me back into it as I'm trying to leave.
- BBBrené Brown
I mean, I think that's right.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, I like it a lot.
- BBBrené Brown
And I think your list of caveats is also big, important.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, I think there, I mean, a lot, I think a lot of these situations may, [laughs] I think the caveats might capture some of the situations where it's, it's hard because you initiate the collaboration and the other person denies the bid, as opposed to accepting it. Well, what do I do? Should I just be more direct? I don't wanna hurt their feelings.
- BBBrené Brown
Yes. I think that's when I do the soft hand on the forearm. "I'm so sorry. I'm so glad you're here. I wanna catch up later. I've got to run. It's so good to see you." That's my-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... what I talk about when, rip it off, but leave the relational sticky. One of the things I've been thinking about from a work perspective in the work that I do with leaders is this is why it's so difficult for transactional leaders to lead real transformation. They don't leave behind any relational residue, even when they have to cut things short.
- AGAdam Grant
Exactly right. And so it feels abrupt and impersonal and just instrumental, task-focused.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. "I got what I need. I'm leaving now."
- AGAdam Grant
Yep.
- BBBrené Brown
So there's no collaborative closing.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, you're, you're a means to an end for me.
- BBBrené Brown
I mean, that's exactly right. One thing that I highlighted in this little lit review that I did, I want you to diagnose this sentence for me. Are you ready?
- AGAdam Grant
Ready.
- BBBrené Brown
This is, again, this is part of how to, this is my how to exit a conversation gracefully lit review. For introverts specifically, the literature suggests the discomfort that drives early exit is not a social deficit. It surfaces a coordination signal the other person was likely also feeling but suppressing.
- AGAdam Grant
Okay. So, hmm.
- BBBrené Brown
Do you want me to read it again?
- AGAdam Grant
No, I'm just, I'm just thinking-
- BBBrené Brown
You got it
- AGAdam Grant
... I'm actually, I'm connecting it to the Mastroianni and Gilbert paper.
- BBBrené Brown
For sure.
- AGAdam Grant
Okay. So that, that study of nearly 1,000 conversations. [laughs] The, the, the thing I remember so vividly from it is that of all those conversations, only 2% ended when both people wanted them to.
- 1:03:40 – 1:08:39
The Shortcut to a Graceful Exit
- BBBrené Brown
The Curiosity Shop is produced by Brené Brown Education and Research Group and Granted Productions. You can subscribe to The Curiosity Shop on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app.
- AGAdam Grant
We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more award-winning shows at podcast.voxmedia.com. This show is brought to you by Geico. Trust is foundational. It's at the heart of every relationship, every decision, and every leap worth taking, and it's something you build over time through everyday consistency, follow-through, and care. Geico gets that. It's why they've spent decades showing up for their customers again and again with real savings and genuinely great customer service from people who truly care. Trust is everything, and it feels good to have it. It feels good to Geico.
Episode duration: 1:04:25
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