Ann Summers CEO: The Heartbreaking Story Of One Of Britain's Richest Women! Jacqueline Gold CBE

1. 0:00 – 2:35

   Intro

   1. SBSteven Bartlett0:00

      The Diary of a CEO Live, my live show, my live reincarnation of this podcast is coming on tour. And it's coming to a city near you. There's a link in the description below. Put your email address in, and I will email you when tickets go on sale. Can't wait to see ya. (upbeat music playing)

   2. JGJacqueline Gold0:17

      I know what I've done has been culture changing, and I'm super proud of that. (dramatic sound) All hell would kick loose if that happened today. I was poisoned by my nanny, I've had a bullet through the post. It was so important to me not to feel like a victim. You know, anybody that's listening will not know the crusade that I've been on.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett0:34

      I don't really know what to say. Honestly, I feel speechless.

   4. JGJacqueline Gold0:36

      Yeah. Gosh, it's, it is hard. I was diagnosed with breast cancer. When I spoke to the consultant, he said... (upbeat music playing)

   5. SBSteven Bartlett0:52

      Jacqueline Gold. She is one of the most successful businesswomen in Europe. She's also one of the wealthiest women in the UK. And she's certainly one of the most inspiring people I have ever, ever met. Just remarkable. But her road to success is one of the most devastatingly misfortunate, tragic, heartbreaking roads I think we've ever heard traveled on this podcast. Imagine me speechless. This podcast made me speechless, not once, not twice, but over and over again. She is and has been the CEO of Ann Summers for decades, a company that if you don't know is known for popularizing sex toys, dismantling the unhealthy archaic stigmas around sex, and starting a crusade to make sex a more widely accepted part of all of our lives. But her story twists and it turns. The lessons, the courage, the resilience, the heartbreak, the pain. This should be a movie. You just couldn't make it up. Jacqueline, thank you for your honesty, thank you for your courage, and thank you for the inspiration. I know that it will stay with me for a lifetime. Without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. (upbeat music playing) I really hate when, um, podcasts are quite predictable. However, I've noticed that in my podcast, I've continued to start in a very similar place, and it's, I can't get away from it, and the place that I always tend to start is about the person

2. 2:35 – 18:00

   Your early years - a traumatic childhood

   1. SBSteven Bartlett2:35

      that's sat in front of me's early years and how those early years have shaped them. And as I was reading about your story, I actually read that you'd said that. I read that you'd said your early adversity heavily shaped who you are today and who you became and influenced the career journey you took. So, I have to start there, and I feel like I always start there, but can you tell me about that early adversity that you're talking about?

   2. JGJacqueline Gold2:59

      Yes, I can. Um, I had a really, uh, unconventional and challenging childhood. Um, my parents split up when I was 12. My sister was a lot younger than me. She was seven years younger than me. So it didn't impact her in the same way as it impacted me. Um, I found it, it, it was quite traumatic. I actually stayed down a year at school because of the impact it had on me. Um, and at the same time, my mother moved in with her boyfriend, um, who sexually abused me between the age of 12 and 15. You know, and that combined with a mother who was overprotective, you know, wouldn't let, um, me or my sister just do anything and play in the normal way. Um, you know, we weren't allowed to go to sleepovers or parties or anything like that. But then when it came to this abuse, which I believe she knew about, um, you know, we were left in the most vulnerable situations. Um, you know, she was quite a, a complicated woman, and, you know, we were in a, a pretty tough situation. So for me, later in life, in fact I say later in life, I probably was about 15, you know, finding financial independence was really important to me because that was my escape.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett4:40

      Hmm. It's hard to, it's hard to imagine a parent knowing about, about that, especially as you say one that was so risk adverse, was so keen to keep you in the house, to not let you outside because you might fall into a dangerous situation. But would turn a blind eye to that?

   4. JGJacqueline Gold5:05

      I mean, it, you know, I've tried to rationalize this myself numerous times because she was, she was quite ill in her later years, so I didn't challenge her. I just felt she was... And even in her earlier years, I just felt, I always felt she was very vulnerable herself, um, you know, just she, she once said to me, "If I could live in the middle of a field with no one around me, I'd be happy." So she herself wanted to be protected in one sense, you know. She, she wouldn't even let my sister and I play in the front garden in case we were kidnapped. I mean, it was, you know, totally irrational, and yet stayed with a man... You know, I remember overhearing her on a, in a phone conversation with her sister after he'd returned after a, a year's break-And I remember hearing her say, "Yes, I know he's a bastard, but, you know, I, I don't wanna be on my l- my own." It was just a toxic, you know, a toxic relationship, a toxic environment. Um, and I, and, you know, I, I have forgiven her, um, but I feel very sad for, for her and, and, and the life that she lived.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett6:30

      Did she ever admit to knowing that her partner was abusing you?

   6. JGJacqueline Gold6:35

      No.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett6:36

      Did you ever ask her?

   8. JGJacqueline Gold6:38

      I didn't ask her, but there were many occasions when I called out for help, um, and a couple of occasions that she either witnessed or overheard me telling someone, you know, I was told off for telling lies. Even my aunt has later told me that she saw something going on. She told my mum about it, who played it down. So there were lots of situations where it was clear to me that she would've known.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett7:11

      Do you know much about her upbringing and what might, and what, um, the early sort of experiences that shaped her?

   10. JGJacqueline Gold7:19

       No. I mean, I, I think that... I mean, my grandmother was lovely. Um, my grandfather was an authoritarian. Um, you know, her sister grew up, you know, perfectly well, but she, she was very, was, was very insecure. Beautiful woman, you know, very elegant, but, you know, just scared of life.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett7:48

       And your younger sister? You've got a younger sister?

   12. JGJacqueline Gold7:49

       I have. Yep. She's, uh, seven years younger than me. Fantastic buz- businesswoman, great people person, and somebody who really, you know, sh- I admire her so much, Vanessa. We have a great relationship, and she's funny and engaging and... Yeah, I mean, she's my best friend.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett8:13

       You grew up in the same household with her, but you turned out to be very different people, and you're only a couple of years apart because you talked there about, fr- at the very start, about how just being a couple of years apart in those early years experiences, even if you're in the same household, can create two completely different people, 'cause y- they both experienced very, very different things because of age. And I, I really resonated with that because, um, like even in my, in my childhood, my family became on the verge of bankruptcy when I was, um, old enough to know what was going on-

   14. JGJacqueline Gold8:46

       Mm-hmm.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett8:46

       ... but my older brothers and sisters kind- and also when I was probably most influential, sort, sort, sort of easily influenced. Like adversity showed up in my childhood when I was, when I was at l- at like the ripest of ages, um, and so I'm very, very different from my brothers and sisters, and I, I kind of f- felt that from what you said there. The difference between you and Vanessa was just a couple of years off, but, um, you experienced very different things in those early years.

   16. JGJacqueline Gold9:12

       Yes. Um, I think Vanessa was also a bit more outspoken than me, and I think that, you know, as a child, maybe it was because of the way my mother was and the fact that, you know, for my first, um, seven years of life, I was an only child and, uh, I don't know, but I, I was very, I was very shy. And I remember my mother used to... If we went on a beach holiday, she used to draw a circle in the sand, put me in the middle, and I wasn't allowed outside that circle. Um, so I, I never really had opportunities to make friends with other children and engage with adults. I was, I always felt quite lonely, bizarrely, whereas I think the second child always, you know, has it easier, in my opinion, um, as I keep reminding my sister. (laughs) And so, you know, she just was that much more confident, that more- much more outspoken, so I th- don't think she was ever, you know, likely to be a, a target. I'm not saying she wasn't, but because we d- we, we haven't spoken about it, but I think she's less likely to have been a target of, of, of abuse than I was. Um-

   17. SBSteven Bartlett10:37

       You've never spoken about it?

   18. JGJacqueline Gold10:38

       Well, we have spoken about it, but I don't think she wants to... She just doesn't wanna talk about her experience.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett10:45

       Fine.

   20. JGJacqueline Gold10:46

       Which is, which is, you know, I respect that, and, you know, and everybody deals with adversity in different ways. Um, and, you know, no matter how successful somebody is or privileged they may be, you know, it doesn't change, you know, the, the challenges that we might experience along the way. And everybody deals with them in different ways, and for me, it was so important to me not to feel like a victim. I didn't want to feel like a victim. I hate the word, and that's not to say, you know, that other people handle it wrong. It's just for me. I just wanted to, (sighs) I suppose, gain something from that bad experience, you know, whether it be proof that I can... You know, and actually, I've experienced adversity throughout my life. I've, I've been quite unfortunate, you know, in that way, um, I, you know, I lost my son when he was six years old, um, I was poisoned by my nanny, I've had a bullet through the post. So I've had a number of challenges subsequently to the childhood experience, but certainly, just going back to that, the childhood experience did...... I believe, shape who I am today. I think it drove me to want to go out and work hard, uh, have that financial independence. You know, I was always curious, always talking to people-

   21. SBSteven Bartlett12:23

       Mm-hmm.

   22. JGJacqueline Gold12:23

       ... always looking for inspiration, I guess.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett12:29

       And so much of... And just thinking about that as well, so much of your work now, 'cause I've, you know, been through your story multiple times and looked at the way that you've made your decisions, and so much of it is, is centered on that idea of, like, empowerment and giving, you know, empowering people to be free from whatever their prisoner might be. And sometimes prisoner is society, sometimes it's social narratives, whatever else. But, um, I've really, I deeply respect that about you. 'Cause I read there was a day in your story where you confronted your abuser, and that ended up being a really pivotal moment. Could you tell me about that?

   24. JGJacqueline Gold13:05

       Yeah. Um, gosh, it's, it is hard-

   25. SBSteven Bartlett13:09

       Yeah.

   26. JGJacqueline Gold13:10

       ... going back and remembering-

   27. SBSteven Bartlett13:12

       Yeah.

   28. JGJacqueline Gold13:12

       ... those periods in time that you, you just want to, uh, park away. But I was 15. I'd been p- trying to plan how I was gonna do this for some time. But obviously, you lack the courage, you know. I was a very young 15-year-old as well. Um, and I didn't want to, you know, generate anger. I mean, he was... The rows that my mother used to have, the coercive control that I witnessed made me want to make this as, um, you know, easy as possible. So in my childish way, I decided to tell him it wasn't fair on Mum. So it was... I was trying to... I mean, is this something we do as, as girls? I think girls are brought up to be helpful and to please, people please, and this is, you know... I'm sure w- we're coming onto empowerment, but that was the, you know, that was the problem. I was brought up to be well-behaved, and to be a people pleaser, and take John up a cup of tea, and, you know, he likes you, and this, all this type of-

   29. SBSteven Bartlett14:38

       Stay inside your circle.

   30. JGJacqueline Gold14:40

       Yeah. Um, so for me, the best way to handle this was to help him not lose face or not feel bad or... So... And he, he just, he didn't really say anything. He just shrugged. Um, and that was it. It was as easy as that, and it never happened again. But I didn't... When I look back, or if I was talking to my, you know, young self now, I didn't realize, you know, that I could stand up to him and that I was perhaps more powerful than I realized. I'm disappointed as an adult that I felt I had to ha- approach it in the way I did. But then I forget that that... You know, I am an adult. I was a child then, and I was incredibly brave, you know? I could have done nothing. Um, and I did, I was able to bring it to an end. Um... And, you know, whilst it's very difficult to forgive somebody that has put you through that much pain and trauma in your life, um, as a person, I have to take positives from anything negative that happens to me and everything that I've been through. That, for me, is how I survive. That's, for me, how I better my life, how I go on to better things. And, you know, I turn my focus to work and to ambition and being curious and learning different things, and then just seeing this opportunity which actually turned out to be a great opportunity to empower women. You know, a lot of people are, "Well, gosh, you went through that abuse. Why would you go into something like this?" But there was an opportunity there. And, you know, fast-forward, I mean, I'm 61 now. I was 21 when I started, so fast-forward 40 years.
3. 18:00 – 21:47

   Being a shy person

   1. SBSteven Bartlett18:00

      sexuality and gender. And, um, the crusade that you, you know, led, I think, is, is, has been a really important one, um, probably more important than a lot of people realize. Um, I wanted to pick up on one thing you said about you being shy-You know, the, what you've gone on to do in your career and life and the crusade you've led is not one that would, you know, one would think would be led by a shy person. The person that I've met today doesn't seem to be a shy person necessarily, to me. Seems to be one of conviction and confidence and belief. In hindsight, how did you go from being that shy person that was kind of coddled, um, at a early age by a mother that was, uh, risk-averse, drew a circle around you in the sand, didn't let you off the front garden, to being the person you are today? What is it that che- that, what is it that does that to somebody?

   2. JGJacqueline Gold18:49

      Um, well, for, I, I think there's a few things around this, because, um, I don't think this is exclusive to me. I think a lot of women especially, uh, experience this. I think, well, first of all, I, I, I might be wrong, but I don't think we're born shy. I think it's our situational environment that creates that. And secondly, you can be shy but still have fire in your belly, which is what I had. You know, I had that ambition and that burning desire. And when you have that passion, you, you have to release it. You can't keep it inside just because you're shy. And, um, I think there were many things that I did. You know, I remember in my very early twenties holding a conference, my first conference for my army of, of, um, sales ambassadors, which I had about 500 in my first year.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett19:45

      Fran Summers?

   4. JGJacqueline Gold19:46

      For Fran Summers, yes.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett19:48

      Yeah.

   6. JGJacqueline Gold19:48

      And I held this conference at the, um, Grand Hotel in Brighton. And I thought it was a great idea when I planned it, because the whole idea is to engage with your teams and tell them about what you're doing and what your mission is and get everybody involved and on the journey. And it was sort of, you know, a few hours before I was going on stage, I was thinking, "Oh, my God, what am I doing?" (laughs)

   7. SBSteven Bartlett20:14

      (laughs)

   8. JGJacqueline Gold20:14

      Because this was like ho- horror to me. I had no experience, and I was, you know, absolutely terrified. But if you're talking about something that you are passionate about, I think it changes it. It's not the same as doing a best man speech or-

   9. SBSteven Bartlett20:35

      Yeah, yeah.

   10. JGJacqueline Gold20:36

       ... you know, getting up, uh, at school and doing your first speech. When you're talking about something that you really care about and that you live and breathe, once you get out there and you've got that first sentence out the way, I do think it changes you.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett20:52

       Yeah.

   12. JGJacqueline Gold20:53

       And, you know, uh, that's what it did for me. So I, I am a great believer that courage comes first, and I've always had a lot of courage. And I think if you have the courage, eventually the confidence will come.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett21:10

       Hmm. Yeah. So yeah, from what you've said there, it's like the courage is creating, is forcing you to create evidence for yourself.

   14. JGJacqueline Gold21:17

       Yeah, it's forcing you to step outside your comfort zone.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett21:21

       Yeah.

   16. JGJacqueline Gold21:21

       And then we all know-

   17. SBSteven Bartlett21:22

       Yeah.

   18. JGJacqueline Gold21:22

       ... anyone that's successful knows that when you do, great things happen.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett21:25

       Yeah. And your comfort zone then expands-

   20. JGJacqueline Gold21:27

       Mm-hmm.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett21:28

       ... becomes a bit bigger, and then you step out of it, and then (imitates object flying by)

   22. JGJacqueline Gold21:30

       Exactly.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett21:31

       Interesting. Um, so you, you said there about work and you've always had that drive. W- when I was reading through your story again, I, I heard about y- one of the things your mum did allow you to do was to work. Um, and so I was, I was thinking about the r- the relationship work y-

4. 21:47 – 24:27

   Using work as an escape

   1. SBSteven Bartlett21:47

      then had in your life from a very early, um, from a very early stage. If, if work was the place that you were allowed to go to, to leave the home, then was it, was it an escape from home? Was it like a, um, a, a place of freedom in your life?

   2. JGJacqueline Gold22:05

      It was so freedom. I mean, well first of all, I can't tell you the countless times I asked her if I could go to a sleepover or a, you know, party, or just things that normal kids do, and it was always no. Um, and there was another sort of form of abuse, was this, they had, uh, her and her husband had this, uh, her new husband, had this task mask, task master approach to everything they did. And it was, you know, there was no end to it. It, you, it was never like you could ever finish the tasks. And they were like digging the garden, um, they weren't like cleaning the kitchen, they were like digging the garden, bringing logs up. You know, it was very, it was manual labor, for my sister as well. And it was like, "These jobs will never get done, so w- we'll never be able to go out." It was a bit like Cinderella. (laughs) As I'm telling the story, it sounds a bit like that. Um, but she seemed to accept things that were traditional. So going to work was something, or getting a Saturday job is something that people do. So that was okay. So I couldn't get a bus into Bromley to meet up with friends, but I could get a bus into Westham to go and work at The Spinning Wheel as a waitress.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett23:30

      So did you look forward to that?

   4. JGJacqueline Gold23:31

      Oh, absolutely. And of course, well, there weren't the rules then. You know, I was working at 14 years old, I, I worked in a bar at Biggin Hill Airfield, I did waitressing, I worked in a hairdressing salon. So, um, yeah, that, that was a, a release.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett23:51

      Did you try and work all the time? (laughs)

   6. JGJacqueline Gold23:53

      (laughs)

   7. SBSteven Bartlett23:53

      More and more hours, overtime, getting all the-

   8. JGJacqueline Gold23:55

      Yeah, and actually, it compromised my schooling, because I, I didn't really invest in my schooling. I just wanted to work. So I didn't go to college or university or-... anything that I expect my daughter will probably do now.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett24:12

      Was there, um... And I would- I do want to talk about some of these points around empowerment. But was there f- any physical, and I don't think people think about this enough, but one of the things I've, I've got more increasingly fascinated by was the connection between like psychological trauma

5. 24:27 – 30:32

   Physical consequences from emotional trauma

   1. SBSteven Bartlett24:27

      and physical impacts, so the, on our physical health and how the two are somewhat interlinked. And was there any sort of physical s- uh, symptoms or consequences of that psychological trauma that reared their head?

   2. JGJacqueline Gold24:43

      So interesting you say that, because I have a stalker, um, and his mother many years ago, many years ago, and I- and the impact was tinnitus. I had tinnitus.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett24:55

      Really?

   4. JGJacqueline Gold24:55

      Yeah. And all through the... 'Cause they, they caught them. It was, went to trial. They were, um, found guilty. I mean, it was, it's another st- I mean, it's a crazy story. It's a crazy story.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett25:09

      C- Can you describe what it is ............................

   6. JGJacqueline Gold25:10

      Oh, so tinnitus is when you get the ringing in the ears.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett25:13

      Yeah.

   8. JGJacqueline Gold25:13

      But actually, I'd just had this marching. It was a constant marching, and it doesn't stop. So when you go to bed, you've got, you know, tinnitus.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett25:20

      I've had it.

   10. JGJacqueline Gold25:21

       Oh, did you?

   11. SBSteven Bartlett25:22

       So I know. Very few people will know what tinnitus is like unless you've had it, because it sounds trivial. If I say to you, "Oh, it's just like a ringing in the ears," or whatever, people go, "Oh, that's fine." Like, "I've been to a gig before my ears have rung."

   12. JGJacqueline Gold25:33

       Yeah. (laughs)

   13. SBSteven Bartlett25:34

       But you get like day two into it, and I... So I got tinnitus for... All right, so I go and Google, "What's this ringing in my ears and why won't it stop?" And it must've been about six years ago, seven years ago. And then you get to day three, and you're losing your mind. And I'm on these forums and people are like, "People commit suicide because of, because of it." And I, I kind of understood why.

   14. JGJacqueline Gold25:55

       Yeah.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett25:56

       It was like a form of torture.

   16. JGJacqueline Gold25:57

       Mm-hmm.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett25:58

       Sleep, you wake up, it's constant. You're eating lunch, your ears are ringing and there's no end to it. There's nothing you can do to stop it. So fortunately, you know, talking about my experience with it, one day, pff, I don't really know what happened, but your sinuses are connected to your ears. It's what I came to learn when I had t- tinnitus, tinnitus. And I think it must've been because my sinuses were blocked, 'cause on day nine of my ears ringing, it just stopped.

   18. JGJacqueline Gold26:21

       Mm-hmm.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett26:21

       And some people live with it for life.

   20. JGJacqueline Gold26:24

       Yeah. I mean, I was very fortunate. I think I had it for about three months and then it stopped, so I was very lucky. I mean, some people have to live it, live with it. Um, but mine was definitely brought on by that awful experience, and obviously the abuse I, I, I did. I mean, I had s- severe, sorry to be graphic, but severe constipation-

   21. SBSteven Bartlett26:47

       No worries.

   22. JGJacqueline Gold26:48

       ... that, um, I look back and I think was, you know, brought on by my own trying-to-be-in-control behavior. Just remembered as you said that, I remember going to the doctor's about it and blurting out to the doctor what was going on at home. And the doctor... And I said, "And I'm really worried 'cause I've got a younger sister." And the doctor said to me, "Um, okay, do you want me to get social services involved?" And I went, "Oh, no. No, no, no," 'cause, you know, as a child, you think you're gonna be in trouble, you think you're gonna be taken away from your mum. And she said, "Okay," and that was that.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett27:27

       Oh, fuck.

   24. JGJacqueline Gold27:29

       I mean... I mean, all hell would kick loose if that happened today.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett27:36

       I don't really know what to say, honestly. I feel speechless, 'cause you just can't imagine an adult hearing that these days, and-

   26. JGJacqueline Gold27:43

       No.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett27:43

       ... and posing the question to you about next steps.

   28. JGJacqueline Gold27:46

       Mm-hmm.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett27:47

       Just think, that just seems unthinkable. Perceptions have changed a lot, haven't they, around sexual abuse and, um, and, and, and also victim blaming, which I think was, was a, was a really destructive habit that society had which fueled the problem. Not having a safe environment to, to speak, thinking that you'd be blamed or, you know...

   30. JGJacqueline Gold28:13

       Hmm. Absolutely. I think there still are challenges. I don't think this is a problem that's gone away just because we're all more vocal. Now, I did a, a, a project recently and just going off piste for a moment, I was quite surprised about consent and... I, I, I did a workshop on consent, and, uh, I think there's a lot that we don't know, we don't realize. And I did a, uh, piece around, um, talking to university students and, you know, some girls go to university expecting to be assaulted. So, I do still think there is a lot, a lot more education that's needed. And maybe that's because I'm the mum of a 12-year-old daughter, so things like that sort of resonate with me more.
6. 30:32 – 34:18

   How hard times have shaped me - Breast cancer

   1. SBSteven Bartlett30:32

      What does that mean to you, resilience?

   2. JGJacqueline Gold30:35

      I think that's true. I, I think I am a, a resilient person. I think, um, for me, the battle is won before the war has even started. So, for example, I was diagnosed in 2016 with breast cancer. I remember my husband and my sister, when they were first told the news, I could tell they'd been crying. And I'm saying, "Come on guys," you know, "I need your support here." We, you know, "We need to put a strategy together. We've got to put a plan together." Because that is how, that's my mindset. My mindset has always been that way, "There's gotta be a solution to this." You know, "There's got to be something better that can come from this." It was a brutal journey. Um, there is no doubt about that. Um, but I remember saying things to myself like, "When I have my next scan, the cancer's gonna be gone." And when I had my next scan in the January, it had gone. Or, uh, it wasn't on the scan. I then had an operation in the, in the July, I think it was, uh, a lumpectomy, and I was told I was all clear, and that there was a one, 0.1% chance it would come back because I'd had such a good response to treatment. Unfortunately, I was in that 0.1%, and it did return a couple of years later, and I had a mastectomy. And when I spoke to the consultant, he said, "It's not curable, but it is treatable, uh, because it's now gone from stage two to stage four," which was, you know, which was devastating to hear. And of course, I m- I immediately said to him, "Well, um, you know, w- what are the chances of it being cured? I know you're saying it, it's not curable, but we've all heard of people..." "Oh, yes. But, you know, that's naught, naught, 0.1%" And my attitude is, "Well, if anyone's gonna be that 0.1%, it's gonna be me." Because I have to think like that. That's what helps drive me forward and get me out of these situations. If I could've been that 0.1% where it went wrong, I can be that 0.1% where it goes brilliant. And actually, I'm right now in what they call excellent remission. So, you know, I'm still, got my amb- I still have ambitions for more, but I am feeling blessed at where I am. And I think that has a lot to do with, with my outlook on life. And that's the learning. You know, when... Nobody wants to wish this, you know, serious illnesses or life-threatening illnesses on ourselves. But for me, I have to find the opportunity in that. Well, where's, where's the good thing? Where's the opportunity? Well, it has made me live a much healthier life. You know, I do appreciate things so much more. You know, I am a different person. I put... You know, my priorities have changed. I love the female empowerment side of what I do, and I want to invest more time in that. I think this is far more important to me, and I think finding your passion is so, so vital, whether you are going through health issues or not, in everything that you do.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett34:03

      That bias towards optimism that you describe, like, you know, it sounds like you could be thrown in any sort of situation and you'd be looking at the, as you say, like the 0.1% chance of a positive outcome. That's r- a really,

7. 34:18 – 39:31

   The importance of being optimistic - The pandemic

   1. SBSteven Bartlett34:18

      really remarkable thing, right? And you've, you know, you've been the CEO of a tremendous company. You'll, you'll be able to look at your organization and see those people in your organization that have that same bias to optimism. When all goes wrong, pandemics show up outta nowhere, they have that bias towards optimism, which is, "We can." And you know, like, it doesn't even matter if we can't, because all we can focus on is we can. That's the only choice we have. But you've also probably seen the negati- the other side of that, right? And, um, I guess my question to you is like, from what you've seen in your organization and, you know, even in your life, how important is that, um, and how costly is the antithesis of that?

   2. JGJacqueline Gold34:58

      Oh, gosh, there's a few answers to that. First of all, in my personal life, the first thing that comes to mind is my daughter. So when she was in junior school, every morning without fail, as she left, I, my husband would take her to school and I would say, "I can." And she would shout back, "I know I can."

   3. SBSteven Bartlett35:17

      (laughs)

   4. JGJacqueline Gold35:17

      So we did that every morning, and I didn't want her to grow up having the, that feeling of lacking in confidence and being so painfully shy. I just wanted to empower her as much as I possibly can. So it was just, that was just a little thing I used to do. I think, um, you know, the pandemic is a really good example. I mean, I remember... I mean, at our peak we had 146 stores. Uh, uh, you know, over the years, obviously, more people are going online. We've reduced our, our store portfolio, and then of course, the pandemic. Anyone having leases had to negotiate with their landlords. And you know, we had to suddenly be told that, "All of your stores are, have to be closed." I mean, I never, like I never forget that moment. It was heartbreaking actually, because it was like my baby. You know, to suddenly be told that was incredible. And-Then, of course, you, you're thinking, "How am I gonna tell my teams?" We value our people so much. And this was, how we're going to talk them through what's, you know, the plan. Because we had to make difficult decisions. We had to let people go. But bringing those people on that really difficult journey was so important, talking to them regularly, reassuring them, telling them what our plans were, how we were gonna get through this, um, was, it was incredible actually. You know, yes, we all worked really hard. Everybody worked so hard. But they achieved things I never thought we as a business could achieve. I mean, our sales ambassadors, you know, went from 4,000 to 20,000 in three months, um, because we were doing a fantastic job, um... I mean, you may (laughs) say differently. But I think we were doing a fantastic job on social, engaging with our customers and, you know, keeping the conversations going, and being relevant in what was going on. And you won't be surprised that we completely sold out of penis pasta.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett37:31

      Penis... Sorry, one second.

   6. JGJacqueline Gold37:32

      (laughs)

   7. SBSteven Bartlett37:35

      (laughs) Take a ad break there for pen- No. (laughs)

   8. JGJacqueline Gold37:38

      (laughs)

   9. SBSteven Bartlett37:38

      Penis pasta?

   10. JGJacqueline Gold37:40

       Of course.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett37:41

       Okay.

   12. JGJacqueline Gold37:41

       All, all the supermarkets sold out of pasta. And we were pushing s- pa- pasta and toilet rolls. We were pushing our penis pasta, which is pasta shaped like penis.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett37:52

       (laughs) Okay.

   14. JGJacqueline Gold37:53

       We were doing, and still are doing, some amazing things. It was a very creative time.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett37:59

       Hmm. Very innovative.

   16. JGJacqueline Gold38:01

       Yeah.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett38:01

       Forced innovation.

   18. JGJacqueline Gold38:02

       It was very creative and i- innovative. (paper crinkles)

   19. SBSteven Bartlett38:05

       Quick one. On this podcast, I've spent a lot of time talking about how Huel has changed my life, especially someone that lives a very fast-paced lifestyle that wants to also be healthy and not, you know, reach for convenient food. Having a nutritionally complete, um, partner in my life like Huel has, um, led me to being in the best shape of my life, but also has given me high energy, has made me feel good, has helped my mental health. However, this week I wanted to do something different, because every week I bang on about the impact it's had on me. I received a DM from somebody this week, um, from a young man who picked up, um, some Huel a couple of months ago, after listening to the podcast, which makes me feel amazing. Um, and they described to me how having Huel and, and having a convenient alternative to the junk food they were eating has had a tremendous, quote, "tremendous impact" on every area of their lives that they would never have foreseen before. Um, and this person has continued to send me videos and sometimes pictures of them on their Huel journey and their transformation. And for me, that is why it's a pleasure to have Huel as a sponsor, a company and a brand and a product that I genuinely believe can help people change their lives and start getting nutritionally complete in their, their dietary choices. (paper crinkles) You started working at Ann Summers when you were 19 or 18?

   20. JGJacqueline Gold39:19

       I did, yes.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett39:20

       How did that happen?

   22. JGJacqueline Gold39:22

       So, I was working at Royal Doulton. I had no, I had no business experience. I had retail experience. But it wasn't...

8. 39:31 – 48:32

   Ann Summers, your journey

   1. JGJacqueline Gold39:32

      You know, Royal Doulton i- is a fantastic brand, but it was too quiet, and I wanted a much buzzier environment. They offered me management, but I, you know, it wasn't really what I wanted to do. So, I was creative as well. So, I wanted... I guess there was that creativity. Um, and I, I worked at Ann Summers, which was my father's business at the time. And they were, he had sex shops and, um, a mail order business, which was like literally tearing a coupon out of a magazine and posting off what you wanted. I was only working there as, uh, for work experience. And I was invited to, um, a Tupperware... Well, it wasn't Tupperware, it was Pippa D, but it was sort of like Tupperware style party. And it was clothes. And it was in a council flat in South East London, in Thamesmead. And I remember driving there in my mustard-colored Mini. Um, I was just, you know, just... These two women invited me. They knew what I did, and I was just a guest. Um, and they were showing me around the clothes. And, and then somebody got... I do remember actually having to draw a picture of my husband's meat and two veg on a piece of paper on top of my head. Uh, and I was (laughs) sort of thinking, "This is not how I imagined my career starting." (laughs) But it's, uh, it's an interesting story to tell.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett41:01

      (laughs)

   3. JGJacqueline Gold41:01

      And it was, women at the party sort of knew I worked at Ann Summers and said, "Look, why don't you do Ann Summers parties? We want to... We'd love to be able to spice up our sex lives, but we're, we're too embarrassed to go into a sex shop." And I thought, "Hmm, actually this is quite a good idea." So, I got some of the toys and lingerie from the s- from our Tottenham Court Road store we had at the time. Um, I held a few parties myself. And, uh, and I remember guests at the party sort of passing the product round like this, 'cause obviously it was switched on.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett41:34

      (laughs)

   5. JGJacqueline Gold41:35

      And they were sort of excited. Um, curious, but incredibly (laughs) nervous at the same time. Which now, of course, they just wanna know what sizes they come in, what speeds they are. It's completely different. Um, but they were having fun. They were enjoying themselves. The- they were talking about their relationships. You know, they were just being open and relaxed and candid. And I just thought, "This, this is something completely different." I've never seen anything like this. You don't... Um, even women's magazines aren't this candid. It was that point I thought, "If this, if I go forward with this, it's gonna be for women only." You know, you're just not gonna get that same atmosphere with, with men, and also a mixed, um, group. I just thought women would feel uncomfortable. Uh, there'd be other...... partner's husband's there. You're showing personal product. This isn't, this isn't gonna w- work." And I think that was actually one of the best decisions I made. So, of course, today, it's sort of like a, a female institution. But we had, at that time, there was, I think, 10% of women going in the stores. And I remember taking this idea to the board, walking down this sort of, what felt like this long corridor, into this room full of all men, all middle-aged, all in gray suits. Um, and telling them about this party I'd been to and these parties that I'd held, and, you know, we, we need to do something different. We should do Ann Summers parties. I had no business experience, by the way. It was just all from the heart. And, uh, I remember one businessman at the meeting, Ron Coleman, he's dead now, so I can talk about him.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett43:23

      (laughs)

   7. JGJacqueline Gold43:24

      He stood up and he threw his pen down on the table and said, "Well, this isn't gonna work, is it? Women aren't even interested in sex." So, I instantly thought, "Well, actually this has got a lot more to do about your sex life-"

   8. SBSteven Bartlett43:36

      Fucking hell.

   9. JGJacqueline Gold43:36

      "... than it has about my idea."

   10. SBSteven Bartlett43:38

       Wow.

   11. JGJacqueline Gold43:39

       Um, and, you know, luckily they agreed to, to invest in some advertising. So, um, I was advertising in the Evening Standard once a week, and I wasn't allowed to put "erotic parties". I had to put "exotic". And I couldn't say "ladies only" because of all the rules. But I used to hold a, like, um, a seminar once a week at the Strand Palace Hotel. And I'd go up there, meet with people that had seen the advert, probably about 25 people in the room, talk to them about my idea. Obviously, the men I had to ask leave. Some would actually get up and leave themselves. They... You know, it was... Nothing had been done like this before. And I remember, I still remember having those conversations, and I remem- remember one couple, it was two women, wanted to do the parties together, bored housewives living in Chelsea, not the demographic people would necessarily expect. And then, all of a sudden, people were popping up, groups of people were popping up in different areas. So, I recruited the two girls in Chelsea. I recruited the eight women at the party in Thamesmead. Then what I would do is I would advertise in those area- areas, concentrate the advertising in those areas. And it really was self-propagating. Then l- later, when we decided to, "Right, we're ready now to open stores," reopen stores with a f- through a female lens, it was like a, an induction into the brand. So, um... And it still is, I think, to a degree.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett45:21

       That's incredible. And there's something you said at the start there about being naive in business I thought was really compelling, because so much innovation seems to come from being naive.

   13. JGJacqueline Gold45:31

       Yeah, I agree. I had no experience, but, uh, that no experience forced me to rely on feedback from my customers, you know, something we don't always do enough of, um, because I had no choice. And what I saw as a disadvantage actually turned out to be, you know, one of my and the b- and the brand's main benefits, because that's in our DNA now. That's what we do.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett45:57

       It's really interesting. I've never heard it phrased like that, that you, uh, because you didn't have experience or a ton of knowledge, you were learning from feedback as opposed to, like, convention. Convention doesn't create new things. It just more of the same.

   15. JGJacqueline Gold46:12

       Yeah. And, you know, I w- As a woman in business, I was only 21. I was quietly spoken, not how people would expect a businessperson to be. Alone, if you like, in the sex industry, as it was then. I don't sort of think of it that way now. There was so much negativity. So, from businesspeople, I would have comments. Um, I r- I remember one guy who owned a chain of, um, estate agents saying to me, "This isn't gonna work. It's just a fad. Give it two years." You know? And I think people were so used to doing things how they'd always done them. A- And we know that, don't we? When we... And, uh, moving on a few years, and if it's okay to go off piste again, but-

   16. SBSteven Bartlett46:57

       No worries.

   17. JGJacqueline Gold46:57

       You know, when you think of heritage brands like Woolworths, you know, doing things the way they'd always done things, that's why I say the pandemic, there were positives, because it, it forced those companies that have done well to do things differently.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett47:15

       You talked about the phase in your business where you started opening these stores. Um, in that era, you know, if someone was to open a, a shop that was perceived as being just a sex shop, in my neck of the woods, you know, when there was a huge amount of stigma towards it, can't imagine people being so happy about that.

   19. JGJacqueline Gold47:37

       It wasn't the people. It wasn't... If you w- If we wanted to go into a... I mean, I'll give you an example of... I mean, loads of examples, but, you know, Bromley, um, we really wanted a presence in, in Bromley's, um, Glades Center. And I actually remember, you know, I was... I went with the landlords and the, um, the center, and, you know... And they were going, "Right, well, you know, we could do it, we could do it if, if we changed the n- if you could change the name from Ann Summers." And there was a, a brand bias. There were many s- you know, center management that would say, "Over our dead body," and, you know, we're there now.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett48:17

       Someone... Did someone s- did someone send you a bullet in the post?

   21. JGJacqueline Gold48:19

       Yes.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett48:20

       What the fuck? W- Why did they send you... What, what-

   23. JGJacqueline Gold48:22

       Uh, God. I wanted to open a store in Dublin.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett48:27

       Okay.

   25. JGJacqueline Gold48:29

       The sales per, um, per

9. 48:32 – 54:12

   Receiving a bullet in the post

   1. JGJacqueline Gold48:32

      head of parties were higher than they were in the UK. So I knew that, um, you know, there w- there was an appetite. And we found this site in O'Connell Street, which admittedly was a bit of a controversial location, because it was right opposite the GPO building. Um-

   2. SBSteven Bartlett48:56

      What's GPO?

   3. JGJacqueline Gold48:56

      And so, you know, it- it's where there were, you know, there was violence and clashes.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett49:02

      Right.

   5. JGJacqueline Gold49:02

      And the Dublin Corporation, which is the equivalent of our council, in fact they might be called council now, um, were ema- uh, not emailing me, sending me letters, you know, putting me under pressure not to go ahead, saying that they had another location, back street, but I didn't want to be in the back street. I wanted to be accessible. So they, um... In fact, it was me, I invited them over to the UK. I just wanted them to see our stores, to see that we weren't trying to shock people. That we, you know, we were trying to empower people. We were trying to make it comfortable for women, empower women in the bedroom. But despite showing them round and they- they... In the after- so then during the morning, they were shown boun- round by my retail director. In the afternoon, I invited them to a board meeting. And their names were Kieran and Alan. Kieran couldn't look at me. He sat, he sat there without any eye contact at all. Alan sat right next to me (laughs) right here, telling him every... You know, they were really good cop, bad cop. He's trying to tell me about his sex life and I said to them, "Look, you know, it- it's very clear. You have your own agenda. You're not gonna change your mind. There's no- n- not much point in us carrying on here." And Alan said to me, his parting words were, "Well, I hope you'll understand that we cannot be held responsible for what might happen to you," which was a very chilling thing to say. And there was loads of, uh, negative media, because there was all this big hoo-ha about Ann Summers, um, going to O'Connell Street. And I'd never done any media before and I was, uh, invited on the Late Late Show, which has sort of got a bit of a cult following.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett50:52

      Yeah.

   7. JGJacqueline Gold50:53

      And, um, I was, you know, really nervous about going on the show. But the producer took me out to dinner and said, "It's gonna be great. You know, you're just gonna be fine. You'll..." You know, gave me lots of reassurance. So when I got there, uh, and I was s- sat in the green room, Michael Crawford was on before me. And, uh, for those that don't know, he was a- a legend, iconic, um, comedian. He- I could hear him on stage, you know, he was a comedian, so he was telling jokes and the audience were laughing and I'm thinking, (gasps) "Oh my God, what's it gonna be like when I go on?" (laughs) You know? So I went on and I sat on the stage. The- the presenter had a desk. I've sat... I was like at the headmistress' office, I'm telling you.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett51:40

      (laughs)

   9. JGJacqueline Gold51:40

      I sat there and all the audience were, uh, you know, it was a live audience, sort of tear-shaped. He did an interrupt- introduction and then he then said, "Right, we'll get Alan t- uh, to speak first." And I'm like, "Gosh, they never told me about this, that Alan's gonna be on the show."

   10. SBSteven Bartlett51:58

       Alan from the c- council?

   11. JGJacqueline Gold51:59

       Alan from the council, stood up at the front of the stage and then starts, you know, beating his chest, telling everyone why there shouldn't be an Ann Summers store in Dublin. And, uh, then of course it was my turn and I- I just told the story, pretty much how I told you about the sales at the parties. First of all, one woman at the very back, at the highest level, stood up and she's pointing down at Alan like this, "Don't you dare tell us where we can and can't shop." And it was fabulous, 'cause once one person did it, others did it. And despite us being served a writ on the first day of opening, um, the Dublin store is now in our top three performing stores. And it's also on the tourist bus route-

   12. SBSteven Bartlett52:45

       Oh, wow.

   13. JGJacqueline Gold52:45

       ... which, you know, because of that story, which I think, you know, for me is great.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett52:51

       Served a writ?

   15. JGJacqueline Gold52:52

       A writ, yeah. So we were taken to court. We won the court case. We got damages, uh, because they tried to stop us remotely.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett53:01

       And someone sent you a bullet in the post after the show?

   17. JGJacqueline Gold53:03

       Oh, sorry. Yes, the bullet in the post, that arrived anonymously, obviously, a week before I was due to fly out to Dublin.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett53:14

       And how did that feel?

   19. JGJacqueline Gold53:18

       Um, (sighs) very frightening. But I just felt... I've- I've had to deal with a lot of challenges within the business, a lot of preconceived ideas. To me, I felt like I was being bullied and it was actually before- before bullying was even a thing. It- I- but that's how I felt and I felt so strongly about what I wanted to do that, uh, nothing was gonna stop me. And I actually... I did get, uh, somebody- a security person to meet at the airport and, you know, that was... But that was about it. That's what I did.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett53:57

       You became CEO of Ann Summers in... What year was that? Do you remember?

   21. JGJacqueline Gold54:01

       I don't. But I was in my 20s still I think.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett54:04

       Really? Becoming a CEO in your 20s is not easy. (clears throat)

   23. JGJacqueline Gold54:09

       Mm-hmm.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett54:10

       Especially if you're, we're gonna

10. 54:12 – 58:19

    Discrimination as a female CEO

    1. SBSteven Bartlett54:12

       be completely honest, especially if you're a woman. Especially in that time, in that era, when there is so much discrimination. Um, tell me about... 'Cause I also became a CEO in my 20s. Tell me about the discrimination that a woman CEO in that era experiences that I would not know about.

    2. JGJacqueline Gold54:34

       Well, there, there's two, as always, there's two answers to this question, if that's okay. The first one is about being f- there were very few businesswomen, so, uh, about being a woman in business, you know, the, uh, w- you'd meet somebody, uh, at a meeting, and they would assume that your colleague, if they were a man-

    3. SBSteven Bartlett54:56

       Hmm.

    4. JGJacqueline Gold54:57

       ... they would start talking to them. So there was that assumption. And I think there is a possibility that still goes on now. Um, and actually, I, as you can tell, I'm quite... I'm only five foot one.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett55:10

       (laughs)

    6. JGJacqueline Gold55:10

       I looked younger than I was at 21. And-

    7. SBSteven Bartlett55:14

       Well, you're only 25 now, so-

    8. JGJacqueline Gold55:16

       (laughs) No, but that's-

    9. SBSteven Bartlett55:16

       ... it's unbelievable.

    10. JGJacqueline Gold55:17

        ... I was only two then. (laughs) Um, and my managing director was very tall. Although she was a woman, she was very tall. So there is this bias that if you're, if you're short and female that you can't possibly be running the business. But then I, I still have that now. So a few years ago, I was speaking, I was doing the, uh, keynote speak at the Retail Live show. And I was re- I remembered I was interviewing Baroness Neville-Rolfe on stage, um, about her role in, in business and some of the challenges that we were experiencing, that the industry was experiencing. And I was just walking the boards basically, getting myself comfortable. Some guy came over and he said, "I've still got, I've still not got my slides." I'm not looking at him. He said, "I've, I'm on in half an hour and I've still not got my..." I said, "H- I'm s- I'm speaking." "Oh." And then he just walks off as if that's a... oh.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett56:15

        Fucking hell.

    12. JGJacqueline Gold56:15

        And th- and, um, another example, I've gotta tell you this one. I jump on the train at the last minute with a first-class ticket.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett56:24

        Oh, I've been there.

    14. JGJacqueline Gold56:25

        Have you?

    15. SBSteven Bartlett56:25

        I know exactly what you're gonna say.

    16. JGJacqueline Gold56:26

        You know what I'm gonna say.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett56:27

        Yeah.

    18. JGJacqueline Gold56:27

        I'm at London Bridge. All the city boys are sitting in there. The train is full. And I'd just, I'd just come down from Sheffield and just managed to get my, um, connection. I was dressed casual. And I said to this guy, "Could y- could you move ove- uh, could you just move over, please, so I can sit there?" He said, "Have you got a first-class ticket?"

    19. SBSteven Bartlett56:46

        Ugh.

    20. JGJacqueline Gold56:48

        And I looked at him and I said, "You're kidding me, aren't you?" He said, "No. Have you got a first-class ticket?" I said, "I'm not answering that." And so he reluctantly moved over and I sat down, but he then carried on. I'm, and I'm saying, you know, this is, this is sexist. How many other... how many of these city guys sitting in here have you asked? Then the guy next to me said to m- uh, who was on, on the other side of the aisle, said, "Just show him your ticket. You know, just stop arguing, just show him your ticket."

    21. SBSteven Bartlett57:23

        Oh, yeah.

    22. JGJacqueline Gold57:23

        And the woman in front of me was doing this... (deep breathing)

    23. SBSteven Bartlett57:29

        (laughs)

    24. JGJacqueline Gold57:29

        I'm like, "Don't calm me down. Don't calm me down." And that's the problem. We need... you know, that's one of... when people say it's job done, it is not job done. It really isn't job done.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett57:43

        Those are the rare instances where you get to see it. But most of it you don't get to see, right? Most of that, um, discrimination is invisible because it will be small decisions compounding against you because of discrimination-

    26. JGJacqueline Gold57:57

        Mm-hmm.

    27. SBSteven Bartlett57:57

        ... over decades and decades and decades. Those are the instances where you can go, "Hmm, that was clear prejudice because that was just me."

    28. JGJacqueline Gold58:04

        Mm-hmm.

    29. SBSteven Bartlett58:04

        Um, I read that there was a bullying culture at Ann Summers in early-

    30. JGJacqueline Gold58:09

        Really?
11. 58:19 – 59:41

    Putting a stop to a bully culture

    1. SBSteven Bartlett58:19

       that because you didn't like that.

    2. JGJacqueline Gold58:21

       Yes.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett58:22

       Yeah.

    4. JGJacqueline Gold58:22

       And again, that was before bullying was a thing. So we have a parent company called Gold Group International, and that person worked in that part of the business. Um, and, you know, and he wasn't the only person. There were others. Uh, and, and bullying was, um, entertainment. In those days, there wasn't the o- the open, um, culture that we have in businesses today. People wouldn't speak up. You know, they, they would assume they're not gonna be listened to, or... um, but I, you know, I knew it was going on, and I thought, "This is, this is not, this is not how I want the business to be." So that was, that was actually very, very early on.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett59:10

       And you have a no sort of tolerance approach to that.

    6. JGJacqueline Gold59:12

       Yeah, I mean, I just don't... I get to hear about, you know, we're small enough that I get to hear about most things, and, uh, tha- that's not something I hear about. And if, if we did, we'd be all over it.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett59:27

       I ask, I ask all my guests this question. You know, you've built this tremendous business. It's hugely successful, and it's really, as you said, it's more than just a financial success because it's been a l- almost a so- like a social success. It's been a societal success because it's kind of led

12. 59:41 – 1:03:26

    Your relationship with money

    1. SBSteven Bartlett59:41

       a, um, perception shift. It's dismantled a stigma, which I think, as you've described from the atmosphere you described at these early parties, was like liberating for people to be able to be open and, and, um, speak freely about sexuality and sex-

    2. JGJacqueline Gold59:58

       Mm-hmm.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett59:58

       ... um, which was taboo at one point.

    4. JGJacqueline Gold59:59

       Mm-hmm.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:00

       Um, but a consequence of... my point is the consequence of business success is, um, financial success. And what role has that played in your, in the, in your life generally as it relates to your fulfillment and everything in between? Financial success?

    6. JGJacqueline Gold1:00:16

       I mean, obviously, financial success is something, you know, that as a society, I'm not saying as a, an individual, but as a society, we recognize as s- or, you know, one of the elements of success. And, you know, certainly in my...... younger time. That was, you know, the more sales, the more bottom line. All of these things were symbols of success that I recognized. And I, I started the female empowerment almost from the day I started, but didn't realize it. So, or I didn't, I realized, but I didn't realize the relevance of it, or the importance of it, or how groundbreaking it was going to be. You know, I wanted to create an environment that was for women. I could see why I wanted to do that. And I wanted women to feel safe. I wanted them to be open. As time has evolved, that passion for doing that has evolved along with so many other things, you know. That, to me, is what gives me the pleasure more than having nice clothes or, or whatever. You know, just the financial independence that I've given hundreds of thousands of women. You know, during lockdown we had women earning £30,000... We were giving out checks of £30,000 a month. Obviously not to everybody, but to our top performers. And it was like, who'd have thought we could be... We would be in a position to do that? I mean, that's... That was fantastic. Sexual empowerment for every woman became something that was really important to me. In the la- last 10 years, you know, uh, five years, that's ex- that's broadened even further to what we consider to be every woman.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:05

       Hmm.

    8. JGJacqueline Gold1:02:05

       You know, our last campaign, for example, which I was at, our Halloween campaign, you know, we had trans, we had an amputee, we had slim girls, we had curved girls, we had models, we had customers, you know, involved in this campaign. And that is what every woman is. And that is something I really love. So yeah, money is, money is nice because we... It makes us feel secure. Um, it's, it... We're able to treat ourselves. We're able to do nice things. Um, you know, I feel I've worked really, really hard and, you know, I feel I'm... You know, it's nice, it's nice to have nice things and do nice things, and I feel very privileged. But for me, having that legacy, which is far more important to me, that for me, female empowerment is, is what I stand for, and I wanna put my stake in the ground and really own it.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:10

       I was thinking there as you talked a little bit about the pandemic, um (clears throat) , much of the reason why I started this podcast was to highlight, um, the, the more untold parts of, like CEOs and professional people and successful people's, um, journeys, because a lot of it's glamorized these days. Entrepreneurship

13. 1:03:26 – 1:05:54

    Your worst day in business

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:26

       is seen as quite a very aspirational thing to a younger generation who can create, you know, c- companies using their mobile phone now. But what was the, um... If... When I say like, "The worst day in business," like what's the day that comes to mind for you? The hardest day?

    2. JGJacqueline Gold1:03:42

       The hardest day was when the, uh, Boris Johnson announced that all stores would have to close. Retail would have to close. There was no mention at that stage of furlough schemes, of rates holidays. Um, you know, there was no mention of deals to be done with landlords or what the future held. I, I honestly was in shock that day.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:20

       Yeah, I can't imagine. I can't imagine that 'cause I don't work in that industry. Uh, just that the Prime Minister announcing that you have to close your business and not offering any kind of hope.

    4. JGJacqueline Gold1:04:31

       And I, uh... You know, and I went on... I mentioned to you earlier, I went on the, on the, on the retail calls and most companies their, their, um, their level of cash was low. I mean, most companies, based on what we were offered at that time was, you know, y- you, you didn't have more than three months cash. So then they of course brought out the CBOS loan-

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:03

       Hmm.

    6. JGJacqueline Gold1:05:04

       But I think it was 80% guarantee. We needed that to be 100% guarantee because there were so many, so many, um, companies were refused credit, um, because the banks were so scared. So that was... You know, you, you, you were thrown a lifeline and then, you know, we'd, we did this for about... It was about nine months of, of, f- you know, constantly being thrown lifelines that then didn't materialize or weren't applicable to you.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:39

       In those, um, difficult moments, um, we turn to our partners in life. You know, they are... You know, many occasions bear the brunt of that chaos at home. How's your... You know, talk to me about your home life and how you've

14. 1:05:54 – 1:09:15

    Your partner

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:54

       man-... As a CEO of a business that's gone through things like that, how you've managed to maintain (clears throat) a healthy relationship, um, with your husband, um, throughout all of this 'cause I think I need some advice.

    2. JGJacqueline Gold1:06:07

       (laughs)

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:08

       (laughs)

    4. JGJacqueline Gold1:06:09

       But do you know? It's interesting as you was asking the question because... And, and I'm definitely not judging here.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:14

       Mm-hmm.

    6. JGJacqueline Gold1:06:15

       I'm just saying that my... I mean, I have, I have a wonderful marriage. I have a lovely husband, but when I was going through health issues, you know, let's say, you know, he wasn't the best. He tried, but it's a very, very difficult thing to go through and it, it spurns up a lot of emotions, and I think there were times that he...... he was brilliant and times that he didn't, you know, handle things as well. And I'm sure anybody listening would know. They've either been in this space or-

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:47

       Hm.

    8. JGJacqueline Gold1:06:48

       ... have been in my position.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:49

       Can I ask? 'Cause I don't wanna make that mistake in my life. What, what, what's, um, what was missing in terms of-

    10. JGJacqueline Gold1:06:54

        I think it's the emotional support.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:56

        Okay.

    12. JGJacqueline Gold1:06:57

        I think that's what men struggle with, um, perhaps in those situations, because, um, I, and I think he's so used to me being strong. That's what it ... And he said that to me at the time. He is so used to me being strong and resilient, as you said earlier. And I was strong and resilient, but there was a vulnerability about me because obviously I was having, having treatment that was debilitating. Um, you know, and I think he struggled with that. I think having ... You know, at one point, you know, I, I couldn't see. I couldn't feel my feet. Um, I was sleeping most of the time. Obviously, struggled with nausea, and I'd lost my hair. So that is ... You can understand why anybody would find that difficult. But in business, when I have business challenges, he, you know, he's remarkably supportive.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:01

        As many of you know, I'm in the process of making conscious switches in my life. And one of the sort of big switches that's happening in my life at the moment is my move towards living a more sustainable life. And that's where a brand like MyEnergy comes in, who, as you'll know if you've listened to a couple of episodes of this podcast, are one of my amazing sponsors. MyEnergy are the UK's number one renewable energy brand, and they're on a mission to increase the usage of green energy. This is one of their renewable energy products. If you're watching this on YouTube, you, you'll be able to see this. But if not, um, beautiful little thing called the zappi. And I've spoken about this device before, but it's probably my favorite product so far, so I'm showing it again. It's a smart EV, electric vehicle, charger which simply allows you to charge your electric vehicle from a solar or wind power source. It's super easy to install, and it's super user friendly, saving you a ton of time, and also saving you a ton of money, which is, um, a huge bonus. So if you are looking for a quick fix for your electric vehicle, or if you want to become more sustainable, then head over to myenergy.com and check out the zappi on their website to hear a lot more. (paper rustles) You talked as well at the very start of this conversation about, um, the passing of one of your ch- children.

    14. JGJacqueline Gold1:09:11

        Mm-hmm.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:12

        Um, another sort of inconceivable thing

15. 1:09:15 – 1:18:49

    The passing of your child, IVF treatment

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:15

       to, uh, experience. You said at the start you've experienced a lot of, like, misfortune in your life. I mean, that's right up there with things that everybody hopes will never happen to them. Are you, are you comfortable to talk about, about that?

    2. JGJacqueline Gold1:09:32

       Um, yeah, I'm okay.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:36

       So you, you have, you had IVF?

    4. JGJacqueline Gold1:09:38

       Yes.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:39

       Tell me about that process. I, I've learnt ... You know, I've, it's, it's, it's interesting because if it weren't for this podcast and some of the guests that I've sat here with who've gone through the IVF process and-

    6. JGJacqueline Gold1:09:51

       Mm-hmm.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:51

       ... that had the process fail for them, as a young man, I would not have a clue about any of that. And do you know what? I also wouldn't have a clue about the struggles that, um, some women face, um, to become a parent. Um, so whatever you can tell me about that process and that experience, I'd be incredibly grateful for.

    8. JGJacqueline Gold1:10:17

       Hmm. Well, obviously, it's not just women that struggle.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:21

       Hm.

    10. JGJacqueline Gold1:10:21

        It's men as well, which I think can be very difficult for some, you know, for men. I think they find that harder.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:27

        Oh, yeah. Of course.

    12. JGJacqueline Gold1:10:29

        Certainly, when I went through the IVF, I mean, we, it's 12 years, over 12 years ago now. So again, it wasn't talked about like it is now. And that stigma makes it even more difficult. And, you know, makes everybody involved feel, you know, there's something wrong with you. And it can be so many different things, you know? And it's, I don't think it's just a given that people just fall pregnant. And the journey I went on is I did three IVFs in this country. Everything was, "If you fall pregnant." "If, you know, if we can make an appointment here." "If we can do that." Everything was an if and felt a bit negative, and then I had to, um ... One of the things I had to do was, or we had to do as a couple, we had to see a counselor. I think, I, I don't know if that's still part of the process, but you have to see a counselor. And halfway through the counseling session, the counselor started having a go at me.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:11:29

        What the hell? What-

    14. JGJacqueline Gold1:11:30

        Yeah, she was saying, "You're very intense." I'm like, "Well, I'm just, I'm just hanging, you know, I'm listening to everything you're saying, and I'm interest-" And she was, it felt like she was threatened by me. She felt uncomfortable with me. It was just a very negative approach. And then our, our fourth ... So we, we had a break for about two years, and then decided to go again. And this time we went to San Francisco, and everything was when. "When you fall pregnant." "When this happens."

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:01

        Oh, really?

    16. JGJacqueline Gold1:12:01

        "Yeah, we can make this appointment." "Call me anytime." "Not- Nothing's a problem." And I just think we are ... Maybe things have changed, and you know, this was, I was fortunate to use a private clinic, but there was still this ... We're very cautious. We're so cautious in, in Britain. But that adds to the anxiety, definitely.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:25

        One might even go as far as saying that reduces the chance of success.

    18. JGJacqueline Gold1:12:29

        Absolutely.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:30

        I mean, we talked about having an optimism bias.

    20. JGJacqueline Gold1:12:31

        I'm totally, I'm totally convinced of it. Totally convinced. And the disappointment every time we failed was overwhelming.You know, there's this blame. Like, who's, who's at fault here? You know? It is a very difficult, it's a very difficult journey to go on. Very difficult.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:50

        And the San Francisco-

    22. JGJacqueline Gold1:12:51

        Mm-hmm.

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:51

        ... procedure was successful?

    24. JGJacqueline Gold1:12:52

        Yes. And I, I then found out I was pregnant with twins, which was a shock. Um, I didn't want to know what sex they were. And at my first scan, he just spent a long time one, on one of the, the babies. I didn't really notice. It was my, my husband that noticed something must be wrong. Um, and afterwards, the r- radiographer said to us, "I'm sorry, but one of the, one of the fetuses is, uh, has a..." He used words like, "An abnormal brain." Um, "A morbid outcome." And I think I can still pronounce the condition, but it, the condition that Alfie had was alobar holoprosencephaly, which is basically, he just has enough brain to live. And, um, to hear that... Well, in f- in fact, I didn't think he was going to make the pregnancy. They said he, he... I was told he wouldn't make 19 weeks. But, um, of course, he did. He, he went through to birth. And that was very difficult for me, because I had grieved for him when he was in the womb. So, it was a big shock to me when he was born, and I found bonding with him difficult at first. I found, um, diffic- I found it difficult going to the hospital. Um, I, I was in hospital for a week, um, b- before I was able to go home. Um, I'd had a cesarean. It was a two-hour, it was a two-hour journey, and I obviously would take Scarlet with me. Um, but that was a very difficult time, a very difficult time for me. And he was in hospital for quite some time, and then eventually we had the confidence to move him out of a ho- uh, out of the hospital and into a fantastic home called The Children's Trust in Tadworth. And then I think that was when I was able to start to build a relationship with him. But nothing prepares you for that. Nothing prepares you for that.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:52

        Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's just unthinkable.

    26. JGJacqueline Gold1:15:56

        And, you know, as hard as this is to hear, you know, he was born in pain. And to hear your son born crying, in pain, not as a, any other... You know, that was, that was just the worst thing on Earth.

    27. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:14

        That, the impact that has on a relationship as well, uh, uh, marriage... Oh, God, it's just so many, there's so many feelings, right?

    28. JGJacqueline Gold1:16:25

        Well, like, you know, they say, you know, i- i- it's ironic that the, the going through the IVF probably, uh, d- you know, caused arguments and drove us apart. But when we had our s- our son, and, and he was, you know, obviously in hospital and then in, uh, The Children's Trust and with this devastating illness, um, it pulled us together. And my husband, uh, you know, was absolutely amazing. And I mean, to have a strong person by your side in the worst situation you could ever have. But on the, you know, we did manage to, t- Scarlet was able to spend lots of time with him. We were able to take lots of lovely f- video footage of him. He w- was looked after so well there, and all of the sensory treatment they, they give is amazing. And you know, now, um, we have all of S- all of Alfie's memories, and you know, I've kept a Pirates box for him. And, um, you know, he's very much part of Scarlet's life, even though he's not here.

    29. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:48

        Thank you for your honesty there. It, um... I think it's just tremendously, uh, valuable and eye-opening. And it's a window that, into a, um, a set of life events that few, um, few are, um, misfortunate enough to experience. But, um, I'm glad, um, just very, uh, glad that you find the confidence to give us that. Because yeah, these are things that, you know, people are naive to unless they go through them. And I think a lot of the things that you've talked about today, um, people are naive to unless they go through them. Um, so sharing it, okay, like for me, is never gonna make me understand fully. But I think it gives me a ton of empathy towards, um, the people that go through those situations.

    30. JGJacqueline Gold1:18:34

        Mm-hmm.
16. 1:18:49 – 1:26:36

    Being poisoned by your nanny

    1. JGJacqueline Gold1:18:49

       I've been very unlucky, haven't I? (laughs) Oh, yeah. Yeah. Um, I mean, this was bizarre. This was bizarre. This is like a movie. I had this nanny. Uh, it was when Alfie was, uh, obviously in the home, so I needed all the help I could get. And, um, I trusted her implicitly with my daughter. And I had a really good relationship with her. I liked her. She was a lovely girl, um, and, you know, very reliable, et cetera. I also had a lady that used to sort of pop in with, and do odd jobs, and while I was going through that period with Alfie, she would also prepare our meals. So all I had to do, uh, before HelloFresh and Gusto- (laughs) ... it's what I had to do to, um, you know, she, she'd just make it easier for me. And, uh, what I didn't know was that she and the nanny didn't get on. And the nanny, instead of coming to me and saying, "Look, I've got a problem here. Can we talk about it?" she thought the best tactic would be to get the n- the cook the sack. So she thought, "I know, I'll start off by putting, uh, copious amounts of sugar in, in, in the food after she's prepared it." So I came home from work, and I'm sat there and I'd, um, cooked dinner. Everything seems fine. And we had fish, and when we sat down to eat the fish, the sauce tasted like custard. (laughs) Um, but, you know, the first time it happens, you think, "Hmm, maybe she accidentally... I don't know. Maybe she's just used the wrong pot." Yeah. Then the second time, a few weeks later, same thing happened again. This time, it was salt. And I thought, "There's something wrong here." Um, and I want... I obviously needed to talk to the, to the lady that was doing the food. So that's what I'd arranged to do. But before I had chance to speak to her, um, the nanny was taking my daughter to Bluewater, and I'd left my lunch at home. And so, I called her and I said, "You wouldn't drop it in for me, would you?" She said, "Yeah, no problem, I'll do it on the way." So she came over. Unbeknownst to me, on the way, pulled over, poured, um, screenwash into my soup, sealed it all back up again. Then went to the petrol station, sorted herself out petrol for the car. She's got my daughter in the back. Brings it to my office, gets in the lift, brings it up, gives it to me. I say, "Thanks, Allie," taking it from her. Then she's gone off to Bluewater with Scarlet. So I didn't know straightaway, 'cause it wasn't until I'd come to, I came to eat it at, um, lunchtime. Luckily, I took quite a large mouthful. And the reason I say that is because I don't think I would've tasted it otherwise. Hmm. And I spat it out because immediately, it tasted of chemical. Of course, screenwash can kill you. And, um, yeah, we... I, I then went into meltdown because obviously she'd got my daughter with her. Did you know straightaway that she'd done that? I... Yes. I, I... It was just instinct. My instinct was she w-... It was her, but I needed to talk to the cook first. But this all happened too quickly. I thought, "If I ring the police, is she of sound mind? Would, you know, would that make things worse?" So I just waited for her to p- to... 'Cause she was due to come back anyway and drop Scarlet off with me. And, um, yeah, when she did, um, I took Scarlet and, um, m- my HR, um, Gary at the time, and someone else, my sister actually, I think it was, um, confronted her. And what did she say? And she admitted it. You're joking. And not at first. First of all, she denied it, but went bright red. And then they said, "Look, if you tell us the truth, we won't need to get the police involved." So she just blurted it out. She said, "Okay, I did it. I don't, I don't like the cook." "I don't like the cook." And, uh, of course I then felt I could do nothing but call the police, because this is a woman that is gonna... Even when she leaves, even when she leaves me, she's gonna get another job doing this, where she could do something like this to another family. And, and so she was charged. It went to court. She appeared on Good Morning Britain first thing in the morning, and was at court in the afternoon, which didn't go down with the judge eith- well with the judge, as you can imagine. Um, you know, trying to get public sympathy and, and... Sorry, public sympathy? Yeah. I think, you know, these people don't always see their own wrongs, do they? They, they... It's never their fault. Whose fault was it in that view? Ugh. Um, I think she just, she was just trying to put herself across in, in a- Yeah. ... in a positive way. Um-You know, and she wasn't trying to harm me. But nevertheless, she was in a trusted position. And you can imagine the tr- the sort of trauma I felt for those few hours.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:25:09

       Hmm.

    3. JGJacqueline Gold1:25:09

       Um, and actually afterwards because, you know, you then are questioning whether you can ever trust anybody again.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:25:16

       Yeah.

    5. JGJacqueline Gold1:25:17

       Um, I'm... I just, you know... It's something else that makes you feel vulnerable. Um, she, you know, she kept messaging me, trying to get the, the court case cancelled. And of course, once it goes through that process, it can't anyway. She was, uh, found guilty. She was sentenced to, um, a year in prison, and she served three months.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:25:44

       Fucking hell. That is awful. Do you know what I mean? Like, p- potentially killing somebody and, um, poisoning someone's food, you get three months in prison.

    7. JGJacqueline Gold1:25:59

       Mm-hmm. And then when she came out of prison, I then, um, had to take out an injunction on her because I found out that she was trying to write a book about that time.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:26:14

       Ugh.

    9. JGJacqueline Gold1:26:14

       I mean, you know, how much more disgusting can it get?

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:26:22

        What a ride. (laughs)

    11. JGJacqueline Gold1:26:25

        (laughs) It's been very colorful.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:26:30

        What are your, like, conclusive life lessons when you reflect on your own journey in business,

17. 1:26:36 – 1:30:49

    Your conclusive life advice

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:26:36

       in life? What are some of the, like, you know, the things you'd say to your daughter if you were trying to advise her on the potential rollercoaster that life can be, as it has been for you?

    2. JGJacqueline Gold1:26:47

       I mean, I try... I'm somebody who tries to have few regrets because I don't think there's any great benefit to that. But there are things I definitely would've done differently. Um, I think, you know, I do have courage, but you can never have enough of it. And in certain situations, I always find myself the first one to be daring, I suppose, is the word I'm looking for. Um, I think that's a good thing, a good thing that's a good thing in life. I think being engaging is a good quality I'd want my daughter to have, which is why I've always wanted her to be as confident as possible, to always believe that you not only can be anything you want to be, but you don't have to follow the norm, and actually it's good to be different. My business pieces would be slightly different actually 'cause I, you know, I think the things I wish I'd done more of are networking, um... And I, I told you about the story about going to San Diego, and I guess that's where I was going with that because in America, networking is something that people do all the time. And in this country, at the time I started out, it was nowhere near what it is today. Um, and I think particularly for women, women, you know... Um, you know, my husband is a brilliant networker. I mean, you know, wherever he does it, he'll do anywhere, and you know, I know when he says, "Oh, I was playing golf again." Actually, you know, he's, um, he's just natural at it. It's, it's part of who he is. But I think, you know, women, it's a thing where you think, "Oh, I haven't got time for that. I've gotta really focus on this job," or, "I've gotta finish this deadline," or... But I have realized as I've got older, you know, every time you walk in a room and meet a room full of strangers, there's an opportunity there, uh, you know, that could possibly change your life. And actually, you were telling me something similar earlier when you were talking about The Apprentice.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:29:00

       Oh, right. Yeah, yeah.

    4. JGJacqueline Gold1:29:01

       Yeah.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:29:01

       Exactly. Yeah, yeah. (laughs)

    6. JGJacqueline Gold1:29:03

       So, you know...

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:29:04

       Yeah. I've gotta tell... (laughs) Basically, we were talking about The Apprentice before we started recording, and, um, uh, Jacqueline, you were on the, The Apprentice?

    8. JGJacqueline Gold1:29:12

       Yeah.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:29:13

       Um, and I was saying that I basically got threw off The Apprentice, the Junior Apprentice, when I was 14 years old, as some of you might know. Um, but in the queue, I met a family, the Ahluwalia family. Um, it was actually the, uh, the son of the Ahluwalia billionaire, I believe he's a billionaire now, was in the queue with me. Got chatting to him, Jay Ahluwalia. And although I got kicked off the show, and therefore didn't get the 25 grand that I would've got at 14 years old to start my business, he ended up, uh, investing multiples more than that in my business. And that was just someone that I met in the queue-

    10. JGJacqueline Gold1:29:43

        Yeah.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:29:43

        ... and had a great conversation with because we were auditioning together for seven hours.

    12. JGJacqueline Gold1:29:46

        Yeah.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:29:46

        So, um-

    14. JGJacqueline Gold1:29:47

        And I think that's brilliant, a brilliant example.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:29:50

        Yeah. Completely agree.

    16. JGJacqueline Gold1:29:53

        Yeah. So, um, and the people piece that I said to you earlier, I wished I had recognized the importance of, you know... For me, you know, people are the success of your business, and I wished I'd recognized that earlier.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:30:10

        Amen to that. That's the s- I... That's the single number one thing that I wish I'd recon- recognized earlier. I thought it was about me-

    18. JGJacqueline Gold1:30:20

        Yeah.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:30:20

        ... 'cause I was naive and-

    20. JGJacqueline Gold1:30:21

        Yeah.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:30:21

        ... dumb and probably a bit, I don't know, arrogant. I thought my business success was about my ability. But it was all about the people that I p- pulled together-

    22. JGJacqueline Gold1:30:30

        Mm-hmm.

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:30:30

        ... and the culture I bound them with.

    24. JGJacqueline Gold1:30:32

        Mm-hmm.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett1:30:33

        So, I had an idea last week, which we wanted to try. Historically, we get our guest just to sign the book.

    26. JGJacqueline Gold1:30:39

        Mm-hmm.

    27. SBSteven Bartlett1:30:40

        But, um, what I would like you to do instead of that, as well as signing the book, is just to write a question. And whoever sits in this seat next, and it could be anybody,

18. 1:30:49 – 1:32:06

    Our new question segment

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:30:49

       all right? It could be someone at the very, very top of business, the very top of politics, the very top of sports, um, could be anybody. I'm gonna ask them to a- I'm gonna ask them that question.We're not gonna, we're not gonna read it out right now. But next week's episode, I will pose them that question. So, whatever question you wanna write in this book, feel free.

    2. JGJacqueline Gold1:31:11

       Okay.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:31:11

       It's gonna be a secret until next week's episode.

    4. JGJacqueline Gold1:31:13

       Okay.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:31:14

       Okay?

    6. JGJacqueline Gold1:31:14

       Fab.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:31:14

       Thank you so much. Um-

    8. JGJacqueline Gold1:31:16

       Thank you.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:31:17

       You know, you're just remarkable. It's quite staggering that you've both, uh, gone through so much adversity, as you've described, and misfortune, as you've, you've called it, and, um, yet you are the person you are today. And there's such a huge amount of optimism which shines through when you speak about these incidents. Even, you know, you were talking about some of, some incidents that are just unthinkable for one person to go through in, in their life, just one of those incidents, yet you always caveated it with a but, and that was always the silver lining. And I think to have that attitude where you can always see the silver lining or the, the lesson or the value in adversity is a remarkable thing that, um, I think, you know, will, will create, as we described with the negativity bias that you saw-

    10. JGJacqueline Gold1:32:02

        Mm-hmm.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:32:02

        ... in the IVF system in the UK-

    12. JGJacqueline Gold1:32:03

        Mm-hmm.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:32:03

        ... can actually dictate the outcome in our lives.

Episode duration: 1:33:31