The Diary of a CEOAnt Middleton Opens Up About His Personal Demons, Being "Cancelled" & His Spirituality | E74
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,039 words- 0:00 – 1:55
Intro
- AMAnt Middleton
One of the things that I say, um, is the most courageous thing you can do a- above all bravery is-
- NANarrator
(music)
- AMAnt Middleton
... this is the personal life that I really keep to myself. You know, I've spoke a lot about it today, which I've never spoken about before.
- NANarrator
(music)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Ant Middleton. Ant is an adventurer, a military vet, a television host, an author, an entrepreneur, and one that's become highly, highly respected as an authority when it comes to things like survival and endurance and leadership techniques. And due to his experiences as an elite special force member, he can talk about these things in a way that nobody, nobody else can. Ant has very, very recently been at the center of a huge media storm where he was, quote unquote, "canceled" with his biggest show to date, SAS: Who Dares Wins, being axed by Channel 4 after five years. And the broadcaster came out and said that Ant's views and values weren't aligned to theirs. This is his first in-depth conversation that he's recorded since he was, quote unquote, "canceled". I've watched countless amounts of interviews that Ant Middleton has done, but the side of Ant that you're gonna hear today is one that even he admits himself that he has never fully shared before. I'm gonna say it, this podcast lifted a ton of weight off my shoulders and answered maybe the most important question about life that we all must ask ourselves if we are gonna be happy, and if we're gonna be successful, and if we're gonna be free. Ant, thank you for your honesty. Without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.
- NANarrator
(music)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Ant,
- 1:55 – 15:01
Exorcising my demons
- SBSteven Bartlett
um, one of the th- when I was reading your book, First Man In, there was, um, there's this quote at the end of one of the chapters, and I thought it was, uh, a good place to start this conversation today, because I tend to think that it's probably one of the more foundational pieces, um, of information. Well, it might lead to one of the most foundational piece of information to describe who you became in your life and what you've gone on to achieve. And this is what you, you wrote at the end of the chapter. It says, it's called Making Friends with Your Demons. "Having dark forces living within us is part of being human. They're the result of inevitable damage of life. Each one of us has a choice. Make these demons work for us or turn them loose against us." And slightly linked to that, in the same- on the same page, you wrote, "Most of, most of us have horror stories we can tell you about from our childhoods. It's not the horror that defines you, it's how well you fought it." What did that mean?
- AMAnt Middleton
I think that's just a generic message to everyone to say that it's okay to have, you know, bad thoughts. It's okay to have these demons inside you. They exist in all of us, you know, but the important message is to exercise them.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm.
- AMAnt Middleton
'Cause the moment you lock them away, the moment you lock these thoughts away, the moment you lock these demons away, the moment you lock any negativity away, all it's gonna do is take over like a mold, and it's gonna completely engulf you, and it's c- gonna- going to control you as an individual. And it's only because I've been there and I've done it, whether that's what I've done in combat, losing my father at a young age, um, losing my mother, um, seeing bodies blown up around me, seeing dead people around me, seeing the effect it has on families, seeing what my decision, pulling that trigger or not, has on a certain person or has on a certain family or has on a certain situation. And it's ultimately being okay with who you are. That's the whole thing about it, is it's being... Acknowledging that, listen, we're not perfect. We're human, okay?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm.
- AMAnt Middleton
We have weaknesses. We have insecurities. We have these horrendous thoughts sometimes. Now, you'd be a liar to say that you don't sit there sometimes, and, you know, the things that go through your head, if you actually voice them, then that becomes a problem.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm.
- AMAnt Middleton
(laughs) That's you not exercising your demons. That's them exercising you. And it's just about acknowledging that. And I acknowledged that from such a young age. I acknowledged that from a young age when my father passed away and I couldn't really understand what was going on.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Can you tell me about that?
- AMAnt Middleton
Um, yeah, my father passed away when I was five years old, and, um, within a few months, a new man came into our life, um, my stepfather. Um, and then within two years, we up- moved to France. So, we lived in Portsmouth. We upped and moved completely to France, a new situation, a new environment, a new man in our life. And I can just remember thinking, I remember going into a bush, um, in the fields where we lived in France, um, after a couple of months we were there, and I sat in this bush and the magnitude of the situation was so overwhelming. I can just remember looking at the road and thinking to myself, "What am I doing here? Why, why am I here? What's the purpose?" I- I- I couldn't grasp anything at that young age. And it was during that moment when I let everything go, and I can just remember thinking to myself, "Don't try and understand what's going on. Don't under- try and understand who this man is and where he's come from. Don't try and understand why you're in a different school speaking a different language, because you can't. Don't try and understand all e- all of a sudden you're living in caravans." We moved, we were living in a couple of caravans. We, we... A big, big family, um, from houses. Um, and I can just remember dropping everything and thinking to myself, "Understand what you c- can understand." And that... At that young age, what I could understand was what I was feeling. You know, I could understand myself. So when I look back on the, the death of my father, and as I flip everything into a positive, even though years and years and years down the line, I'd done this-You know, the death of my father actually made me self-reflect from the age of six or seven. So I've been self-reflecting, you know, understanding my emotions, understanding how I feel, understanding my demons, understanding, you know, the good parts of me, the bad parts of me, the weak parts of me, the strong parts of me, the positive side of me, the negative side of me. And I've been really breaking it down from such a young age. And that's given me an advantage in life. I generally believe that that's given me my sort of bulletproof mindset on how to tackle anyone or any situation today. So even though it was a traumatic, um, part of my life and it affected me all the way up to my mid-20s in a, in a bad way, where I'd go out and try and understand who my father was, try and understand... You know, I never went to his funeral. Um, I never went to, to, to his grave. You know, my parents, my, I say my parents, my stepdad, because he came in my life so young, I called him my dad. Um, they never told me where he was buried. He was just completely cut out of our life. Um, because of the situation beforehand, you know, for him to come into our lives a couple of months after, it was pretty obvious that my mum was obviously having an affair or there's something going on. And again, I'm not judging anyone or the situation, but you know, so when he came into our life, it was like, "Right, you call him Dad." My name changed from Aaron to Middleton. Not a lot of people know that.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Really?
- AMAnt Middleton
Yeah. Um, and this whole new life was just forced upon me, forced upon me. So I was either forced to act or forced not to act. You know, sitting in that bush, me forcing not to act was probably jumping in the road. You know, thinking, "Right, listen, enough is enough."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Did that cross your mind?
- AMAnt Middleton
It was a big road (laughs) . It was a big road. And it never got to that stage where I thought, "Right, I'm gonna take my life." But it was like, you know, there's, there's an easy option out of here. Do you know what I mean? It's like there is an easy option out of here, but it never crossed my mind to, to do it. But I can just remember thinking on that road, thinking, "The cars move fast there." Do you know what I mean? If you wanted to. It was more like if you wanted to-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- AMAnt Middleton
... that could be-
- SBSteven Bartlett
So it crosses your mind.
- AMAnt Middleton
Yeah-
- SBSteven Bartlett
But it doesn't-
- AMAnt Middleton
It crosses your mind, but it doesn't register.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- AMAnt Middleton
If that makes sense.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- AMAnt Middleton
And it's only, you know, throughout these few years when you start to reflect back on, on, on who you are and what you've been through, you start to go, "Bloody hell. Man, actually, maybe I, I was thinking like that at, at a young age." So, um, but then again, you know, who I am, I, you know, I'm honest with myself, I'm honest with my demons, I'm honest with, with who I am, and ultimately, um, I'm, I'm honest with, um, with knowing that we're not perfect.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You know, a lot of people, and you've described it there, they never make... they never admit their demons to themself.
- AMAnt Middleton
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And what ends up happening is those demons run the show, but from the back room.
- AMAnt Middleton
Absolutely.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And, you know, I guess you see that a lot with, you know, people that have come back from war as well, because they don't get the, uh, the support they need. But h- h-
- AMAnt Middleton
I see it during war.
- 15:01 – 30:40
What shaped you to who you are today?
- SBSteven Bartlett
What, what are the other, if any, moments from your early years that went into shaping who, the man you became? Was there anything else? 'Cause I, I hear you in your books and in your writing and your interviews continue to cite that, that, that sort of trauma with your father and your, your stepfather then coming in and, and b- and being the way that he was. But there was, was there anything up leading until, you know, your 20s that you cite as being pivotal in who you became?
- AMAnt Middleton
Yeah, when I joined the British military, (clears throat) I joined the army at the age of 16, um, just going onto 17, and I came from a background of French culture.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- AMAnt Middleton
You know, I'd go out and drink coffee when I was 14, played bowling when I was 15, you know, and all of a sudden, I get thrown into a male dominant organization, um, the culture, drinking, fighting. You fit in or you fuck off. It's as simple as that. So what do you do? You try and fit in. But when you try and put a, a round peg into a square hole, (clears throat) you know, you're, you're gonna get stuck.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- AMAnt Middleton
And you'll either stay stuck, okay, you go, and you go around pleasing everyone else, or you pull yourself out of that situation. And that's ultimately what I done with the army. I spent four years in the army, then left because of that situation. It wasn't me. I wasn't this aggressive young lad that loved drinking. I'd never used to drink. I was always polite, always respectful. I'd walk past someone, I'd tip my hat. You know, in France, it's bonjour, you know, you'd just have a little chat. You do that in England when I, when I was 16, 17 walking past someone, nodding and they're like, "What the fuck are you looking at?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- AMAnt Middleton
No, it, it used to shock me and I used to think, "I'm only saying hi, mate. What..." You know? And that was a pivotal four years in my life where I thought to myself, "Right, I can either fit in to this UK culture, um, or I can pull myself out of it." And for the first four years, I found myself fitting in and I found myself being good at drinking. I found myself being good at fighting. I found myself at being, good at being a fucking dickhead, you know, because th- that's what I needed to be to fit in. So again, those were demons that I discovered along the way that I found that I was good at. So would I let anyone take the piss out of me anymore? You bet... No, 'cause you're gonna get, you're gonna get a good hiding. You know, would I, would I go out and, and drink and fit in? Yeah, of course, of course I would. You know, it's like, "Yay, one of the lads." Mm-hmm. I wanna fit in. Do you know what I mean? I'm so, I'm so far detached from all of that, but if I'm this young, polite, respectful, sort of multicultural individual, then that's gonna be a more of a hindrance- Mm-hmm. ... moving forward in, in what I need to do, especially in the military than it is, uh, a benefit. Mm-hmm. So you find yourself turning into this person. I can just remember, I was about 21 and I went to Macedonia and I worked with the French Foreign Legion out there 'cause I could speak fluent French. And I worked with the French Foreign Legion a bit, and I saw how they were. They're very m- very mature, very sort of, you know, going back to that French culture, you know, they're family-orientated, very... I thought to myself, "Well, this is, this is who I am." And when I got back off that tour, I can just remember going to the squadron bar...I was in Nine Parachute Squadron, Royal Engineers, going to the squadron bar. We'd just done a six-month tour. I'm going to the squadron bar and I remember walking in there and I remember seeing someone, um, a staff sergeant, probably about 35, 36. You know, I'm a young 20, 21 year old, drinking from a, a boot, from an old desert boot- (laughs) ... right? And he's drinking piss. B- drinking piss from a boot. And I can just remember looking at him, thinking, "If I continue the way that I'm going, that's gonna be me in 15 years time." Hmm. And it scared the hell out of me. I can remember just thinking, "I've got to get the hell out of here." And I walked out of that bar. Then the next day I put my notice in. I was like that, "This is not who I am. This is not..." You know, I've gained more demons from this four years than I have any friends, any benefits from it. And that was a pivotal p- point. That was a pivotal point in my life where I thought to myself, "Wow, you know, I can either go... I can either change in such a way and just be stuck in this square hole, or I can pull myself out, rebuild on the foundations that I have of knowing that I'm a good person." And, and you... And from there, you handed in your notice. Mm-hmm. And what happened next? From there, I handed in my notice and, and I left. And, um, I found that in civvy street, I was acting the person that I never wanted to be in the military. Right. But I'd found that that had followed me, that that had taken charge of me. You mean... Be specific on that. So those demons that, um... Those demons that had sort of identified themselves within that four years were running the show. Okay. So when I got out, I joined the Metropolitan Police and I was acting like a proper squaddie. Right. You know, going out drinking every night, you know, cheating on my exams, um, drink-driving. You know, I've, I've worked... I got all the way through training, I... A couple of weeks ago, um, a couple of weeks to go, passed all the tests, I got caught drink-driving. Wow. Boom. Kicked out the, um... Kicked out of the Met. Um, out of the training, um, in, in Hendon. And, but it didn't bother me. I was like, "Yeah, I'm, you know, once a soldier, always a soldier." And I was living in the past and being someone who completely wasn't me, but who had control of me. And then getting into, into the street life. You know, I got into this street life where, you know, fighting... Not gangs. Not gangs, but that, that social circle where, you know, you have to uphold a reputation where you... And the one thing that I w- you know, the... Well, I say the one thing, but the thing that I was good at that fitted me is that I was, I was a good scrapper. I knew, I know how to scrap, I know how to drink, I know how to fight. But you find yourself reverting back to the person who you never wanted to be, and I suppose that was a d- defense mechanism. I knew that that worked in the UK. I'd never trialed and tested anything else. Hmm. As soon as I came over to the UK, straight into the military again. Now, I spent 10, 12 years in France before that. Then boom, straight over into, into the British culture. And I thought that's, that's how you acted. I never knew what sh- civvy street was about. Mm-hmm. Because, um, I never... I was never in it. So, um, it took me a, a good couple of years, again, to realize, "What-" What saved you? "What the hell did..." What pulled you out of this pit? The job. Uh, there's one moment that, that saved me. Um, I refused to sign on. I refused to take any, any help from the government. Same. Um, and I can remember my aunty... I was living with my aunty at the time. She went, "Ant, you've got... You know, you've got no money. What, what are you gonna do?" I said, "Well, I'm gonna go down to the job center." She went, "Well, why, why don't you just sign on, you know, until you find a job?" I'm like, "No." She went... You know, I w- I was proud. I was like, "No, I've never taken a penny off the government." And I thought, "No, I'm gonna go to the job center." And I remember walking into the job center, walking up the stairs, walking into the job center, and I had my red book. And the red book, when you leave the military, it's got all your- Hmm. ... all your qualifications, military qualifications, all your credentials. And I walked into the job center and the, the guy re- obviously recognized the books. They probably have hundreds of people going there, you know, a year. And he said, "Oh, mate, you're ex-military, aren't you?" I was like, "Yeah." He said, "Come to the desk." He sat down with me and then he opened up my r- my book and he started reading my book. And he looked up at me and he said, "Why did you leave the military?" And before I could answer, I was gonna say something back and the f- He said, "Well, I have hundreds of these come across my desk," and he said, "This is one of the best reports I've ever read." He said, "So, my advice to you..." As he slammed the book shut, he went... (book slapping) He went, "Go back into that space." And I can remember just sitting there, um, I was 22, sitting there and I'm thinking, "Right, okay, he's gonna offer me a job now." And he just handed me the book and called over the next person. (laughs) And I was just like... So I remember (laughs) picking up the book and thinking to myself, "God, he's just told me I've got..." You know? But obviously there's, there's n- all military qualifications. There's nothing for me out there, apart from to empty bins or whatever it may be. Hmm. Um, and I remember taking the book and as I walked down the steps of the job center, um, I sat down halfway down on the steps and I had a train ticket in my pocket and probably about a couple of quid loose change. That's, that's... That was my life. Um, this was at the age of 22, 23 maybe. And, um, and I can just remember thinking to myself, "Right, why the hell are you sat skint, nothing in your life apart from what you... the clothes that you're wearing and what's in your pockets, jobless?" And then a moment of clarity just hit me. It was almost as if I had an out-of-body experience and I was looking back at the, the boy sitting on the step. And I can just remember thinking to myself, "Right, I'll tell you why."... is because you're pretending to be someone else. You're lying to yourself, therefore you're living a lie. You're, y- y- you know, you think you're better than everyone else, you know, you've got this reputation that you want to uphold that's not you. Um, you're just, you're just a shadow of who you really are. You're not, you know... Who the hell do you think you are? Because the person that I'm looking at, you know, almost looking in the mirror, the person that I'm looking at is exactly where he should be. Sat on a fucking step, jobless, with nothing. Because this isn't you. And if you want to live in this shadow, if you wanna stay stuck in that hole, in that square hole, then keep lying to yourself and keep living a lie. And that moment, I'll always go back to that moment. Whenever I get a bit above myself-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Ugh.
- AMAnt Middleton
... or a bit too big for my boots, I always go back to that moment where I ripped myself apart. Because it freed me as an individual. And I promise you this, and it's not cliché, this isn't some kind of fucking bullshit story that I'm telling you, it freed me as an individual because I can remem- remember standing up on them steps (sniffs) feeling like a new man because I just identified who I was. This isn't you. Get that out of your life, get that out of your life, get that out of your life. Be you. And I had those foundations to fall back on-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AMAnt Middleton
... because I knew who I was ultimately, but it was just covered in, in-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Ego.
- AMAnt Middleton
... yeah, ego. Covered with so much bullshit, covered with so much complication that I'd implemented on myself. And when I got rid of it all, it was just like that, "Do you know what? I was good at the military. I've got Best Recruit, Best PT when I was in the Army. Do you know what I'm gonna do? I loved that lifestyle, but I was just around the wrong people. I was in the wrong regiment, you know? I'm gonna rejoin the military, but I'm gonna be a team player. I'm gonna be myself. I'm gonna be this respectful gentleman, hard worker that I know that I am. Do you know what I mean? I'm not gonna s- go out boozing, I'm not gonna go out fighting, I'm not gonna try and fit in. You know, if they don't accept me for who I am, then so be it. The, the military obviously isn't for me." And I joined the Royal Marines. I went straight down the careers office-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- AMAnt Middleton
... straight down the careers office and joined the Royal Marines. And within a couple of months, because of my previous, um, military, uh, history, um, I got in very quick. And within a couple of months I found myself going through Royal Marine training.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh.
- AMAnt Middleton
And when I passed that Royal Marine training, I got, um, awarded with Best Recruit, which is the King's badge.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Wow.
- AMAnt Middleton
And I can just remember thinking to myself, "Right, Ant, you've been here before. You know, you got Best Recruit, Best PT, you know, you rested on your laurels, went to your unit, didn't really fit in. You're in the same position now. Now you can either use this as a positive and push forward and, and, you know, go on to achieve great things, or you can try and fit in, booze, fight, be a, be a camp hero, you know, a pub soldier, and just be back to square one where you was five, six, seven years ago."
- SBSteven Bartlett
There's something, uh, and I, I want to carry on from that story, but just going back to that, I find it super fascinating that you're sat on those stairs, and at a moment when your ego kind of dissolves because of the circumstances you find yourself in, um, you're actually able then to go and pursue your true self. And I find, you know, I had someone sat in this chair previously, and he's the biggest investor in the world in psychedelics, and one of the things that he talks about with psychedelics is it, what it does is it strips back the bullshit. Your ego, the, the, the identity you've been living to please society, and what's left is, like, who you actually are. And it's, and it's so funny that so many of the guests I speak to, and so many of the psychologists I've spoken to, talk about in order to, like, find your happiness and pursue your true self, you have to get rid of that bullshit. And what, what I'm, what I was hearing when you were saying that is, you know, you'd, you'd created this reputation and identity for yourself, which actually was leading you astray, but it was helping you survive in those circles-
- AMAnt Middleton
Absolutely.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and, and this tough, tough decision to say, "Do you know what? I'm gonna break out that circle, leave that identity behind, throw myself into a, uh, an uncertain moment-
- AMAnt Middleton
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and go in pursuit of, like, who I actually am." And everybody faces that in their life.
- AMAnt Middleton
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You know, I, as a k- kid grow- growing up in Devon in a school of 1,500 white kids, pretending that I liked indie music and pretending I was-
- AMAnt Middleton
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
... to fit in and survive, and I-
- AMAnt Middleton
Yeah. Survival mechanisms.
- 30:40 – 40:59
Why is being honest with yourself so hard these days?
- SBSteven Bartlett
(page flips)
- AMAnt Middleton
One of the things that I say, um, is the most courageous thing you can do abo- above all bravery is to be honest with yourself.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why is that so hard these days?
- AMAnt Middleton
You know, people say to me, "Ant, you know, what's the bravest thing you've ever done?" And I always talk about the story of the job center steps, 'cause that took courage, that took balls, that took, that's bravery right there. Now, I've been in rooms where bullets were flying over my head, I've kicked doors down and, you know, I've taken, I've saved life. It's like, that's not being brave. That's just me being extremely good at my job and loving what I do. You know, that's not, it's nothing to do with bravery. You know, bravery is almost forced upon you. But when you decide to step into the arena, when you decide to step into that and go, "Right, I'm going to face this." And put that mirror on yourself, ultimately facing yourself, that is the hardest but most liberating thing I've ever done. And people shy away from that and they live in the void. They live this life where they just live in a void. I call it, I say you're on autopilot because you're lying to yourself and it's pretty simple. Therefore, you're going to live a lie. I don't care, it's, I'm not the Archbishop of Canterbury, you know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- AMAnt Middleton
I'm, I'm not, I'm not a rocket scientist. It's, it's just simple sci- you know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AMAnt Middleton
If you lie to yourself, g- guess what? You're going to live a lie. Um, but standing in a mirror, standing in a mirror-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- AMAnt Middleton
... and ripping yourself apart does take away all the bullshit and all the complications, and it frees you as an individual. But it's, you have to do it on a regular basis. You can't just go, "I've done it once."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- AMAnt Middleton
"So here we go, I've found myself. This is who I am." Because hopefully you're constantly changing, you're constantly evolving-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AMAnt Middleton
... you're constantly, um, adapting your mindset. You know, that's the, what evolution is about. You know, the, the world is designed to, to, you know, is, is, e- e- evolutionizes and we are designed to do exactly the same. And the moment that you, you're not honest with yourself, it's game over for you. It's like, it's like you, you just wanna be just that person, you know? Like, a lot of people say to me, "Ant, fucking hell, you know, I've, remember s- remember me from the military?" I'm like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah." They go, "Fucking hell, Ant, you've changed a lot. You've changed." I'm like that, "I haven't seen you for 10 years-"
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- AMAnt Middleton
"... I hope I've changed."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. (laughs)
- AMAnt Middleton
And I say to them, "You haven't. That's why you're still just that guy. That's why I'm Ant Middleton-"
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AMAnt Middleton
"... and you're still just that guy." It's because of course I've changed. I'd like to think in another 10 years time when you see me that I've changed again, because if I haven't, I'm doing something wrong. And that doing something wrong is not being honest with myself! And it all goes back to you as an individual. No one can do that for you. No one can do that for you. And I say to every- everyone, everything starts with you. And it's, it's so true. If you don't want to change, then nothing will change around you. You know, if you don't want to be honest with yourself, well, g- guess what? You're lying to yourself. It's complete opposite, therefore you're living a lie. It's like you have to do this on a, on a, on a, on a m- weekly or a monthly basis.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AMAnt Middleton
Any time a- an obstacle is thrown in front of you, you can fall back on, "Right, just be honest with yourself. Be honest with who you are, be honest with, with, with your, you know, with how you tackle things and, and, and don't lie to yourself."
- SBSteven Bartlett
The cost of being yourself and being honest with yourself is, uh, seemingly increasing in this day and age. Be- and, you know, I find it re- I think that's a really, really valid point, one that I, I hadn't, I don't think expressed properly, which is you had that reflective moment when you sat on those stairs where you say, "Fuck it. We're gonna start being honest with ourselves." But then especially as you get more successful, you know, in your media career and everything else, the forces fe- uh, at play trying to get you to not be honest with yourself get greater and greater.
- AMAnt Middleton
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And this is this crazy sort of, I don't know, paradox or whatever we see in society at the t- at the moment which is you being honest with yourself is the reason you're sat here.
- AMAnt Middleton
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's the reason you're Ant Middleton.
- AMAnt Middleton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But, and that's what's made you to go, go explode, right?
- AMAnt Middleton
Mm-hmm.
- 40:59 – 50:58
Cancel culture
- AMAnt Middleton
then, and then you start to get canceled. But...
- SBSteven Bartlett
What's the answer though? Like, so I, I, you know, I hear... We've heard Piers Morgan talk a lot about this as well and other people talk about how, you know, if you don't perfectly fit the, the views or the perfect hashtag of the, of the left or whatever, then, um, you're basically being canceled in culture.
- AMAnt Middleton
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I, I genuinely... This is a fucking... And probably the most genuine question I've ever asked on this podcast 'cause it's one that I'm thinking about all the time, is I also see this happening. My views don't always fit the left or the right. And sometimes, like in the Black Lives Matter moment, I posted on my Instagram saying... It was actually my best performing post of all time. I said j-... Because there was this whole narrative around, like, silence is violence, and if you're not saying anything, then you're racist.
- AMAnt Middleton
Yep. Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I did a post saying like, "That's obviously bullshit."
- AMAnt Middleton
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
As I said, it's unpopular Black opinion.
- AMAnt Middleton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
If someone doesn't post a Black square on their Instagram doesn't make them a racist. People process things in completely different... In fact, the most unnatural reaction to trauma is to take to social media. So, like, and that-
- AMAnt Middleton
Absolutely.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... it was, it was... It didn't fit the, like, silence is violence narrative.
- AMAnt Middleton
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And, and my ability... And I, like, of course, that's fucking true.
- AMAnt Middleton
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Like, do you know what I mean? It doesn't, it doesn't fit. I understand, right?
- AMAnt Middleton
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But it's... No one, not one individual in the millions and millions of views that that post did could tell me... There was one slide in that nine that was... they disagreed with.
- AMAnt Middleton
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But it was the feeling that I wasn't wearing the football kit of the, of the left that made some people go, "You're an awful person, Stephen." Then I'd go, "Why?" They'd go, "Ugh."
- AMAnt Middleton
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) Maybe.
- AMAnt Middleton
You see their minds ticking and ticking. You're like-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. And I go, "Um, tell-"
- AMAnt Middleton
"Tell me. Tell me."
- SBSteven Bartlett
"... tell me what's wrong with the post."
- AMAnt Middleton
Yeah. Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
They go, "Ah, you know what's wrong with it." (laughs)
- AMAnt Middleton
Yeah, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And, and I, I, I try... I think, well, I'm... I know I'm not going to change.
- 50:58 – 57:51
Cutting myself off emotionally
- SBSteven Bartlett
I wanna talk about, going back to your, you know, when you started in the military, one thing I found- found really interesting is the guy that was running around drinking, boozing, getting in trouble, um, for him then to go into the military and pass with flying colors is like a massive contradiction in my mind. I'm like, one appears to be a guy that's kind of out of control, the other one ... and- and seemingly lacking the appreciation of authority, and then the other guy is one that's able to do what he's told and follow orders and- and- and how did you achieve such high-
- AMAnt Middleton
That's what they want.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... yeah.
- AMAnt Middleton
That's what they need. They need the animal on the battlefield. They need the aggression. They need the violence. Because ultimately, on the battlefield, you counter violence with extreme violence. Now there's zero tolerance to violence in civvy street. In society nowadays, you show any form of violence, you're gonna end up behind bars. Been there. But in the military, you- you counter violence with extreme violence. You- you counter anger with extreme anger. And your- that's needed. I- I- I needed to be that person on the battlefield. I needed to- to have ... to cut myself off from any emotional sort of feelings, any emotional, you know, sort of, um, discrepancies. Because they were the missions that I went on. You know, I was hunting down Taliban commanders. You know, I was getting into fucking shitstorms, into firefights every week, every couple, you know, two, three times a week. I needed to put ... to call on those demons to come to the forefront of who I was to get the job done, and then switch it. You're expected to switch it because one moment you're kicking the door down, you know, taking out enemy combatants. The next mo- next door, you're kicking the door down, there's women and children in there. So, you- you live on that side or you live on that side. And then when you get the two confused, you know, I might be an Afghanistan best man, put me on camp, you know, "Well, you can't be doing that, Ant." Well, what- what ... who the fuck do you want?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AMAnt Middleton
Do you know what I mean? You can't be doing that. You can't be, you know, getting into fights downtown. You can't be, you know, getting, you know ... I used to get into a hell of a lot of fights, you know? Fucking hell, it ruined my military career because, you know, but then t- putting ... three tours of Afghanistan I'd done almost back to back. "Perfect out there, Ant." You've put boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. So what- what animal do you want? You know, and it's okay to be able to flip from one to the other when- when you're here-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AMAnt Middleton
... but when you live on the complete opposite sides of the spectrum, you're gonna get confused every now and then. You're gonna be met with a situation in society where you're met with aggression, you're met with violence, and this demon takes over. You know, it's ... and all it is, is- is a moment of madness. It's just a con- it's confusion-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AMAnt Middleton
... confliction between the two, you know, and it's between the two- two people.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AMAnt Middleton
And it's ... sometimes it just goes whack.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- AMAnt Middleton
And before you know it, that crossover is too much. They- th- m- ...
- SBSteven Bartlett
They're both, like, trained to survive, but in different environments.
- AMAnt Middleton
In completely-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- AMAnt Middleton
... different environments. And sometimes those- those environments, you know, you're forced to act and those environments get switched. Yeah. And it's literally like a flash in front of your eyes. It's like bang, bang. "Shit. I used the wrong person there," or, "I used the wrong environment." It's- it's-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AMAnt Middleton
And that- and that's- that's the world that I live in. That's the world that I lived in. That was my life. That was, you know ... I used to come back from- from Afghanistan and, you know, I've got four- four- four- well, four children at home f- um, a fifth one from a previous relationship who's 19, but, um, used to come home and s- I remember coming back from Afghanistan and my daughter was born, um, she's 13 now, my daughter was born, um, 10 days before I left for a six-month tour in Afghanistan.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Ah.
- AMAnt Middleton
So she was born, so I didn't know her, and I came back six months later and she was like nearly seven months, um-And then I went straight on special forces selection, so for another six months. So I came back after, like, a year really of not really being at home to a, to a one-year-old daughter who barely recognized me. You know, i- she would push me away. She would, you know... And I'd interact and I'd be playing dolls on the, on the floor, Barbies. And my wife came in one day and I was playing with these Barbies and she thought I'd lost the plot. She's like, she's like... 'cause I'm, you know, got these Barbies together trying to make her laugh, trying to make her smile because for the last year, she's just seen this pent-up war machine, you know. And I've come back and I'm not as... I'm not very easy to deal with, you know, during those transitions, you know. I need a bit of time. So-
- SBSteven Bartlett
What do you mean by that, you're not very easy to deal with in those transitions?
- AMAnt Middleton
Well, you come back from... You can't just take your head... Even though I can do it, I can take a head off, put a different head on, but that transition of f- kicking doors down to being back with the family, I need d- uh... Even now when I come back off of filming, when I come back, I, I need... Before we actually start getting on again, you know, before I start settling back into the, into, into the family, it takes about two weeks. And again, me and my partner are the best, most compatible partners in the world. The teamwork that we have is absolutely amazing, you know, hence why I've been with her for 16 years, been married for 14. Um, but it still takes that two-week period for me, of me breaking her, her routine, of me coming in, you know, taking over everything, you know, with the kids, taking the, taking the kids to school, taking... Ruining her, her life that she's built-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Sure.
- AMAnt Middleton
I come in like a storm. (imitates storm)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- AMAnt Middleton
And it takes two weeks before that storm normally calms down and we go, "All right." You know? And again, not arguing to this, but, you know, just disagreements, just control issues can... You know, it's, it's like two worlds colliding, right? And then after the two weeks as everything settles, I'm away again.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- AMAnt Middleton
I might be on tour or I might be... Like, I'm, uh, in Australia for two months now. It's like... So it's that constant-
- 57:51 – 1:02:51
Whats the worst thing that you brought back from war?
- SBSteven Bartlett
um, what are some of the, the things that have come, come back with you from war that you don't like or that you think aren't h- helping you in your, in your-
- AMAnt Middleton
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... personal life?
- AMAnt Middleton
Um, they're two different worlds. You know, you deal with dark humor, dark banter to get you through certain situations and that dark humor and dark banter and dark way of talking is a norm to you because you live and breathe that. And sometimes that comes out, you know. And only when I'm doing a military style show, you know, you, you, you come out and you might say something which is a, for me, probably a throwaway comment or a bit of banter that... and you realize there's 100 odd crew members listening. And it's nothing... You know, it just might be, I might say something about someone or I might... It's never direct, you know. It's always an indirect conversation that we have. Um, it's that military banter that I fucking hate. Sometimes I hear myself talking like a military man, and I hate it. I might say military words, you know, "hoofing," "honking," "waz." The... You know, there's loads-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- AMAnt Middleton
... of them out there. Um, and I think to myself, "Why are you talking like that?" But it's just come- it just comes out because I might find myself in, in a high-octane situation, in a stressful situation, in a, in a, an aggressive situation, in a violent situation which, which I revert back to what I know works, which is this, ultimately, this military person. But then I think, "Fucking hell, I'm not in a military environment." I'm not in, in, in a... I'm in society, you know. I've got b- you know. And it's controlling that that I find really difficult, um, but knowing, also acknowledging that it needs to be controlled, you know. I'm not in the military anymore, you know, uh, and I always hate this, "Once a marine, always a marine." You know, you get people who go, "Hey, once a marine, always a marine." I'm like, "I was a marine 12 years ago, 10 years ago." You know, and now I'm a, I'm a media, um, TV presenter. I'm now an, an, an e- an extinguished author. I'm now, you know... I, I like to say, like, you know, about mindset, my mindset career. I go around, do my tours. You know, I'm in a completely different space but I have to pull up on this young soldier every now and then in order to get the job done because I know that that works. You know, I know that if I do that... But I just need to fine-tune it. I need to buffer it around the edges-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AMAnt Middleton
... which, again, is a work in progress. You know, um, I, I, I put my hands up and I go, "Fucking hell." Do you know what I mean? I've... Yeah, I shouldn't have said that or I shouldn't have done that, you know, and I'm, I'm, I'm the first one to admit it. But people have to realize that, listen, it's, it's, it's a work in progress. It's, it's not something that I can change overnight. You need to understand me. You need to understand that who I am, um, in order to, to acknowledge that, "Okay, wow, fucking hell. Yeah, that was a bit uncomfortable to see." Now some of the things that we do with the recruits, you know, they're like, "Fucking hell, man." G- like, he's on, on his knees and you're, you're literally, you know, saying to him that, "You stay there." You don't... You know, "If, if you think you're not worthy," you know, if you, if you... "you piece of shit," blah, blah, blah. But p- it's hard for people to see that-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AMAnt Middleton
... and to watch that, but ultimately, there's always a, a positive motivator behind that. So that's where people, I think, get, get confused, is like-Negativity is a great fuel. It's a great source to use to get to where you need to be, but only if there's a positive motivator ahead of it. So you can't use negativity to get through a situation if there's not a positive motivator because all you'll do is you'll veer off in the negative lane-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- AMAnt Middleton
... because there's no positive motivators to aim towards. It's like a plow. Right? Say the plow is, is the positive motivator-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AMAnt Middleton
... and the fuel is the negativity, whether it's aggression, whether it's revenge, whether it's, you know, prove people wrong, whether it's, you know... These are all things that, that, that fuel you, but you be sure that there's always a positive motivator. So when I'm talking like that to the recruits, what I'm doing is, believe it or not, is to get the best out of them, to make them realize what they're capable of, make them bring their attributes and, and, and, um, personality to the forefront so they can identify who they are. And a lot of people, they, they, I bring that to the forefront or I flip that mirror on them and they look at themselves and they go, "Oh." (imitates explosion) "No, I don't like what I see." They VW or they go or they leave.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. So that's what I was gonna say. It's also a filter.
- AMAnt Middleton
It's a filter.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And that's what a selection process is.
- AMAnt Middleton
And that's, um... But that's how I... It's not only what a selection process is. That's how I live my life, Steve. I'm, I'm so brutally honest with what I do and situations I find myself in and the environment that, that I choose to be in is, uh, uh... And it's that brutal honesty, it's that brutal sort of truth that the motivator is always becoming a better version of who you are, of un- of, of learning something, growing from it, and becoming a better version of who you were
- 1:02:51 – 1:10:25
How important is personal responsibility?
- AMAnt Middleton
yesterday.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And how important is it to take personal responsibility for your outcomes in life? Because there's a growing culture of blame and, you know, victimhood. And, and I see this as well as someone that, um, you know, the, the, the best thing that probably happened to me is if I was successful and I had parents that were rich and I had loads of money and I had got a degree and I got these great grades, people would immediately go, "Well, no, Steve can't tell us anything because he-"
- AMAnt Middleton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
"... got it handed to him."
- AMAnt Middleton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Fortunately, I was the opposite.
- AMAnt Middleton
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I'm a Black kid born in Africa, kicked out of school, dropped out of university after one lecture, got no degree, parents are bankrupt.
- AMAnt Middleton
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So I can talk a little bit more about, like, personal responsibility-
- AMAnt Middleton
The substance behind you.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... without being discredited.
- AMAnt Middleton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And people say, "Oh, well, of course you fucking say that." And, like-
- AMAnt Middleton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But I see this growing culture because I was a kid in Moss Side in Manchester stealing pizzas to feed myself only, I don't know, seven, eight years ago. And I know that my mindset and the beh- the, the, the behavior that my mindset created is the reason I'm sat here now.
- AMAnt Middleton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Like, of course there's luck, timing. I understand that. But my mindset increased my probability of being sat here now.
- AMAnt Middleton
Yep.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So when I preach that to people, especially people that don't want to take, take personal responsibility or like, you know, victimhood or blame keeps them nice and safe and comfortable-
- AMAnt Middleton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and it means they don't have to look in the mirror.
- AMAnt Middleton
Yep.
- SBSteven Bartlett
They go, "Fuck you, fuck you. Fuck you, guy."
- AMAnt Middleton
(laughs) Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And they... But it's hard to atta- attack me.
- AMAnt Middleton
(laughs) Yeah, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's hard to attack me because what are you gonna say?
- AMAnt Middleton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You know what privilege I h- the privilege I had was moving to this country as a baby.
- 1:10:25 – 1:22:09
Flipping a negative into a positive
- AMAnt Middleton
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AMAnt Middleton
And there's nothing more rewarding in this world than flipping a negative into a positive. Because if you're willing, and again, if you're willing to work hard enough and you're willing to take the shit and the fucking, uh, and the bullshit and everything that surrounds negativity, if you're willing to dive into the center of it and you're willing to work in order to flip it into a positive, then I guarantee you, you, you will find a positive in it, and I guarantee you that will be the most rewarding thing you ever do.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- AMAnt Middleton
And it's like failure. It's exactly the same with failure. I look at failure and it's just a- it's like a challenge to me. It's like, "You can't do that and you don't know nothing about that. You're going to fail at that." Well, listen, I'll tell you what, I probably will fail at it, but I'm not scared to commit because I know that the moment I commit to failure, I take two or three or four steps into failure, and I might go, "Yeah, right, I haven't achieved that." But those three or four steps I've taken, that- that's- that's what I bank. Those moments in the moment, that's what I bank. A lot of people, they- they might take on failure and they might fail their objective, and they think, "Oh, I failed that, therefore I'm a failure," and they forget how far they've come. That just, it's completely automatically written off-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AMAnt Middleton
... because they're going, "Oh, I failed that." Do you know what I mean? It's like-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- AMAnt Middleton
... "I won't, I won't go near that again."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. That becomes part of your identity.
- AMAnt Middleton
You... It's-
- SBSteven Bartlett
"I'm a failure." Yeah, yeah.
- AMAnt Middleton
"I'm a failure." So they, anytime failures, th- they think their safety bubble.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah.
- AMAnt Middleton
Safety bubble, victim, but whatever it... They won't go anywhere near it. But I love it. When negativity comes along and failure comes along, you know, I'm so intrigued on what I'll get out of it. I'm so intrigued what I learn from it. Because when you learn, you grow. When you grow, you become a better version of who you are. It's- it's just that, it's- it's that knock-on effect that it has. And failure is exactly that. Failure isn't going anywhere. I failed up to now in my life, I'm gonna fail till the day I die. So are you. So are you. So are you. Every single one of you in here, ugh, is- is gonna fail. Whether you like it or not. It's as everyday part of life as much as it is breathing.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AMAnt Middleton
It's- it's surrounded by us. So why do we ignore it? If it's part of who we are and part of, part of, part of what's, what makes the world tick, then why don't we use it to our advantage?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Because the perceived cost of failure-
- AMAnt Middleton
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... whatever that might be, you know, Jenny at work is gonna think I'm not so whatever-
- AMAnt Middleton
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and this person's gonna write this about me.
- AMAnt Middleton
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
The perceived cost-
- AMAnt Middleton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... especially in the short term, feels greater. It feels... And that's the same force of like the PC brigade or that, you know, it- it's like, it's better just to stay in your lane today-
Episode duration: 1:38:46
Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript
Transcript of episode k8voKz-2vBU
Get more out of YouTube videos.
High quality summaries for YouTube videos. Accurate transcripts to search & find moments. Powered by ChatGPT & Claude AI.
Add to Chrome