Billion Dollar NIGHTMARE! The Tragedy Of A Billion $$ Beauty Business - Nicola Kilner, The Ordinary

1. 0:00 – 2:39

   Intro

   1. NKNicola Kilner0:00

      Just a tragic story and a tragic ending. (tense music) It's hard to say if it's regrets, but is there anything different we could've done?

   2. SBSteven Bartlett0:11

      Nicola Kilner.

   3. NANarrator0:12

      Co-founder and CEO of DECIEM and The Ordinary. This is the unthinkable, inspirational, and tragic story of how she built a $2.2 billion empire.

   4. NKNicola Kilner0:21

      I always just had this feeling that the only way to achieve financial freedom is entrepreneurship. And then, I met Brandon.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett0:28

      Brandon Truax... Founder of DECIEM... ... and The Ordinary...

   6. NANarrator0:32

      One of the fastest-growing skincare companies in the world.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett0:35

      A success story. (cameras clicking)

   8. NKNicola Kilner0:37

      The minute it launched, we couldn't keep it in stock, producing 400,000 units every single day and valued at $2.2 billion US. It truly happened what felt like overnight.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett0:47

      And this is really where Brandon's behavior started to change.

   10. NKNicola Kilner0:51

       He'd gone from someone who, there was just so much warmth, to just this coldness in his eyes. I was suddenly pushed out of everything, and then I got fired. Abusive emails were being sent, firing people and copying the whole company in. Everything was played out on Instagram, saying he was shutting down the entire company. The shareholders had to step in, but then things just seemed to keep spiraling, and I don't know what to do to help him.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett1:14

       We've got breaking news right now of the founder of DECIEM has died. Come give me a hug. What would you do if the person closest to you, your best friend, your partner, the person you've built your life with, seemingly lost their sanity overnight and went from working with you to turning against you? This story is as profound as it is heartbreaking. It is as haunting as it is heroic. Of all the stories we've shared on this podcast, this is the most chilling. It is the most hard to believe, and right at the end of this conversation there is a twist that I did not see coming when you learn, in the most tragic way, that history is just repeating itself. An incredible business story, an unthinkable tragedy, and a formidable entrepreneur that stood tall when most would fall, and a genius lost to the world too soon. So pause, take a deep breath, because what comes next is not ordinary. It is certainly extraordinary. (upbeat music)

2. 2:39 – 5:36

   Where do you come from?

   1. SBSteven Bartlett2:39

      Nicola, paint a picture for me. Paint a picture for me of where you have come from.

   2. NKNicola Kilner2:48

      So I think quite a traditional, um, you know, because Mum stayed at home, so she did do-

   3. SBSteven Bartlett2:52

      Yeah.

   4. NKNicola Kilner2:52

      ... the cooking, the cleaning and just a very caring, uh, you know. I just, she's just with my, my children today, and it makes me so happy because I know what kind of mum she was, and just knowing that that love that they're gonna have. Uh, my da- father was very, um, great sense of humor, always very playful, very inspiring, very charismatic, always had kind of big ideas, uh, kind of high energy. Um, my mum was much more reserved, more of an introvert. My dad was kind of always the, the people person, always kind of very busy socially. Um, Mum was very calm. Dad would have a temper sometimes, but you know, nothing too much.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett3:32

      And at that age, at that young age, sort of like around that 10, 11, 12 age, what were your aspirations and hopes for your future, if I'd asked you? Where did you think you were gonna end up?

   6. NKNicola Kilner3:42

      It's actually a, a combination of kind of almost two, well, I don't think needs to be extremes anymore, but kind of I think originally would've been seen as two. One was actually a stay-at-home mum, because I think I'd seen my mum obviously just in that role, and I've always been very maternal. I'd always dreamt of having children, except I always wanted freedom. I never wanted to rely on anyone else. And I think I'd always kind of been interested in entrepreneurship, watched Dragons' Den from, you know, quite a young age. I always just had this feeling that actually the only way to really achieve financial freedom is probably through entrepreneurship in, in some way. So I always kind of had this dream of almost just doing something with my 20s, kind of making all the sacrifices to build up enough freedom that then actually going on to have a family, I could make the choices to really spend my time where I wanted to.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett4:35

      Is that, is that why you went and studied management studies?

   8. NKNicola Kilner4:38

      Yeah, so I, it was actually interesting 'cause I never knew if I wanted to go to university or not, because, you know, I believe in university very much if you want to become a doctor, you want to become a lawyer, you know, there are, there are subjects that you really need to learn. Business is one of those where it's always hard, like, do you learn that at university or do you learn that in doing? So I came across this course, um, which was business management in company, which is quite a unique course, which was at Nottingham Trent University. So it's sponsored by different blue chip companies, so Rolls-Royce, Boots, Barclays, Tescos, companies like that. They take on 40 people into this course. We would work four and a half days a week for whichever company are sponsoring us, and then the other half day was kind of our, our study time, although obviously there was much more than that. And actually we were then ... We'd go, so I chose Boots. Well, we went through interviews. I had Boots as my first choice, and I was lucky to get there.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett5:33

      Boots, for anyone that doesn't under- know the store if you're overseas

3. 5:36 – 10:13

   Skills you learnt working at a big corporation

   1. SBSteven Bartlett5:36

      in America or something, is kind of like CVS or something, isn't it?

   2. NKNicola Kilner5:38

      Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett5:38

      Pretty much that's the equivalent. Um, what's your ... So if we just pause there then, what's your opinion now on university? When your children get to that age where they're about to make that decision, you've got two young children-

   4. NKNicola Kilner5:50

      Mm-hmm.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett5:50

      ... when they get to 18 years old and if they said, "Mummy, I want to be an entrepreneur like you," what advice would you give them based on your experience?

   6. NKNicola Kilner5:59

      So I actually would always probably recommend doing a few years in a corporate, because I have to say, at Boots, I learnt so much.... you know, you learn the things that they do really well, you learn the things that they do, not necessarily wrong, but just the drawbacks of being such a big organization. So I think, you know, more than going to university, like, those t- the two placement years I did at Boots, I learned incredibly so much. And depending on the kind of person you are, you know, if you go to a big corporate, it's so difficult to impact the culture there, because there's just so many people, there's so much history, and if you are someone who's kind of got this strong drive to make a change, then, you know, entrepreneurship, I think, is just an incredible area. And even if it's, uh, not your idea but going to join a startup is just incredible energy, um, it would just always be what I would recommend.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett6:53

      At that point, if there was a, a key skill or a key set of skills that you took from your time working in a corporate at Boots that then proved to be incredibly valuable as you went on, what were those skills?

   8. NKNicola Kilner7:08

      So when I was at... so, so when I graduated, I then stayed on and I was an assistant buyer to begin with, and then I got promoted to be, um, a, a buying manager for them, which was really around relationships. It was about collaboration, it was about looking around the world, seeing new technologies, finding the innovation new brands, and then really handholding those, which mainly were entrepreneurs, to come into Boots, to actually show them, "Look, this is how we could launch." Uh, you know, we had a stand, it was called Latest Finds. We would launch a new innovation for a period of three months as a trial to see if it would work, would Boots consumers like this? Uh, if it did, they would get a listing with Boots kind of long term, and that just really suited my skillset because it was a very entrepreneurial role, uh, because actually, you know, I, I very much guided them with PR agencies in actually how to build the plan and, um, you know, we used to have a saying of, like, "Launch and love," because actually, it's one thing to get a listing at Boots. It's another thing for your product to actually be picked and taken off the shelf. Like, the listing is just the first thing, you know, you, you have to drive consumers. You had to have that entire plan, and I think it was just a really good way of actually learning from working with supply chain, working with finance, doing the checks, with legal, "Can we do this? What can we say?" It was a really good sense of actually working with so many different departments, and actually starting to understand, I think, consumer goods, learning demand, learning how to create it, um, so I feel like that role was created, which really just suited my s- my skillset incredibly well, and I'm very fortunate for that. And then that's also how I met Brandon, so actually he had a huge impact on obviously my, my next stage too.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett8:54

      And Brandon was a business you were maybe... he had a business you were maybe looking at, or-

   10. NKNicola Kilner9:00

       Yeah. So he was with his previous business, which was called Indeed Labs, um, and we launched a couple of their products through this program Latest Finds, so I'd worked with him, and I remember, you know, and actually when I... This sounds alien now so many years ago, but you couldn't check your emails when you left the office. So often every morning I'd come in and I was dealing with a lot of international entrepreneurs, so I'd always come into like a- an inbox full of emails, and I always remember, like, looking for his name because his email was always so full of energy, uh, he always signed off "Smiles, Brandon," you know, just someone whose positivity, his passion just kind of really shone through that I'd always go straight to his emails, kind of open it and, uh, you know, the launches that we did with Brandon and at Indeed Labs were some of the most successful we did through the, through the innovation program. Um, and he was just, you know, when he used to come to, to the Boots head office in Nottingham, just, it was bouncing off the walls with kind of this infectious energy, uh, and I remember just from the day I met him thinking, "Gosh, I always want this person in my life," because he just had this aura and just someone who you knew wanted to actually also make the world a better place and kind of really cared about doing good and, and doing things differently.

4. 10:13 – 15:14

   Starting your own business

   1. NKNicola Kilner10:13

   2. SBSteven Bartlett10:13

      And at some point you start having a conversation with him privately about launching a business, your own business, and then he's launching his business, right?

   3. NKNicola Kilner10:19

      Yeah. So, so, uh, I remember he suddenly left Indeed Labs. Now, Indeed Labs, he, he founded it, it was a rocket ship, it was kind of doing super well, and I remember getting this, this message from him that he left and just being, like, shocked as in, like, "What has happened?" Um, so then when he was next in London, I met up with him, and obviously he told me about his reasons for leaving, he was gonna do this next thing, and I'd always kind of had this, this viewpoint of wanting to do, do my own business, um, and ever since I worked in beauty I found that, you know, I always had friends, family, everyone asking what's the best mascara, what's the best foundation? Um, and just how we'd go to TripAdvisor, you know, to look at kind of ratings and reviews for restaurants and hotels. I wanted to create the same thing for beauty that actually ranked the products. So I told Brandon my idea and said, "I want to do this," um, like, "What do you think? Do you have any advice?" And he told me he wanted to start something called DECIEM, which is from the Latin word for the number 10, um, it wasn't designed to be a beauty engine in, in that time. There was a beauty concept but there was a technology concept, there was a food concept, so kind of just lots of different, uh, ideas generating, but with this viewpoint of doing 10 things at once. So he said, "Why don't you come and help do DECIEM with me, and I'll help do the, the beauty..." we, we went on to call it Beauty Wise, "...with you." So then obviously I made the decision to leave Boots, which, um, obviously I was at the age of, uh, 24, 23, 24, and I remember telling mum and everyone's like, "Ooh," like, "You're in a really good business, you've got a good, like, you're already achieving things," but I just knew that I wasn't meant to be there forever, so I, yeah, I left 10, 10 years ago, and then it was the start of DECIEM.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett12:01

      I've gotta say, this idea of doing 10 brands at once seems like it's counterintuitive to all, anything you might read in a business book that speaks to the importance of focus.Um, was there any sense in that, in your view?

   5. NKNicola Kilner12:14

      So, in, in actually our office in, in Melbourne, we used to have on the wall, "Focus is overrated," uh, because everyone just tell you not to do 10 things at once. And actually, there were so many benefits to doing (laughs) 10 things at once. So, first of all, it was this viewpoint of trying to create this ecosystem of, you know, how do we have our own manufacturing, do our own comms in-house? Because... and again, i- it takes funds to set up that ecosystem, but also, you know, so many entrepreneurs which, uh, I understand why they're in this situation, but so many entrepreneurs have to outsource everything. They go to the PR agency, they go to a lab, they go to someone to do your R&D, and then you're really just coordinating all of those efforts rather than... I mean, so it, it was a privilege we could build this, this whole ecosystem, because then at the table, everyone's sat there, everyone's generating ideas, and again, you know, if I think around, like, doing comms in-house, it's a lot for one brand to pay, but if you've got 10 brands, suddenly you can look at it as 10% of everyone's salary. If I'm flying to Australia for me to buy, well, do I want to present one brand or do I present 10 brands? And also just this, uh, you know, area of you don't know what's going to... until... if you're in consumer brand, until it starts selling, you don't really know what's gonna be... you can do all the research and all of the insights in, in the world. Until something gets traction, you don't really know what's going to work. So it also just set up this incredible structure that we could fail, we could keep trying things, we could fail relatively cheaply, quickly, and kind of start the next thing.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett13:50

      What's the downside, though, of doing 10 brands?

   7. NKNicola Kilner13:53

      So I'd say the downside in, in the later years is because The Ordinary has become such a huge success, when The Ordinary took off, the other brands got pushed aside, because it's very difficult if you have one brand that's really driving such a huge portion of your revenues, when everyone is, you know, facing high workload, that always gets prioritized. So then you end up ignoring the other brands, versus if they had to dedicate a team in. It's something now we want to actually... we start our incubator engine, and actually the only way we can do that is by having a dedicated team to that. So, there are downsides. I think the other thing that made a huge difference for us, because we didn't have much money as a startup and we obviously wanted to hire all of these people, we couldn't afford experience, so everyone who was hired was pretty much straight out of university, straight out of college, just applied for their first job, and actually that meant no one really had preconditioned ideas about the beauty industry, about the way things should be. Everyone was approaching it with... just with a... almost a very practical viewpoint, and I think that made a big difference too, with actually this, "How do we think differently? How do we do what others aren't doing?" It was almost never something that had to be discussed because people hadn't worked-

   8. SBSteven Bartlett15:09

      Didn't hear about that.

   9. NKNicola Kilner15:09

      ... for the... the conglomerates for, for all the years.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett15:12

       Mm-hmm.

5. 15:14 – 17:49

   Co-founders relationships

   1. SBSteven Bartlett15:14

      Soon after you become co-CEOs with Brandon-

   2. NKNicola Kilner15:16

      Yeah.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett15:16

      ... um, I always think about co-founder relationships and, you know, people being yin and yang, and what the kind of right balance is for, for co-founders. In your case you... the way that you came to together was quite unique. It wasn't necessarily there wasn't an initial interest in being co-founders, you were both gonna do two separate things-

   4. NKNicola Kilner15:34

      Mm-hmm.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett15:34

      ... you then kind of got drawn towards each other. If I put your personality on this side and, and Brandon's here, what are the, the differences? How are they complementary but also uncomplementary?

   6. NKNicola Kilner15:45

      So, Brandon was eccentric.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett15:47

      Yeah, it sounds like it.

   8. NKNicola Kilner15:47

      Um, he was... uh, you know, I'd say we both... we were both very passionate. He was a lot more eccentric and I'm a lot more calm, I think would be a big difference, but I guess but also from a skill set, you know, he was... um, he was so into the sci... like, he was a genius when it came to science. Um, he was a tech person originally, so he came from things with a very... he didn't understand gray, it was black and white, and actually that was quite a good way to actually approach the science, I think, behind beauty products. Um, he was at times short-tempered. Um, I'd be the, the kind of smoothing things out, and he would kind of be a little bit more hot-headed, but again, I think it was... you know, a startup culture is not for everyone, but for me, those first few years were incredible. But he also just had this amazing way of making things fun. Uh, you know, like when we would plan trips to go on meetings, he would be prioritizing which restaurants we were going to, where's got the best ice cream, what are we gonna go and do here, and actually the work was something that came alongside it. He also had this... th-... you know, he had this philosophy, he wanted to build a family. He'd had, you know, a troubled upbringing. I think he'd always... you know, he'd, he'd actually had this pattern, I think, of always leaving a business when it kind of just went on the verge of success. Um, DECIEM was his fourth business. He had a, a tech business and he had two beauty businesses, UOKA, then indeed before, before DECIEM, and each time what hurt him was actually leaving the relationships and the people behind. So his viewpoint of DECIEM was actually, "How do we build a family, like a work family?" But I think he... it was never work, and I think that's what so many of us felt. Weekends, evenings, like, we wanted to be doing DECIEM because we were all friends, we were all eating together, we were going to Niagara Falls on the weekend, we were going to a theme park in Toronto. Like, we were just having fun whilst we were doing everything.

6. 17:49 – 26:02

   Building the best team culture

   1. SBSteven Bartlett17:49

      The part you said about he wanted to build a family because he had a s- sort of troubled upbringing, I'm trying to understand there how his upbringing you believe shaped h- his perspective on how you assemble a company. It sounds there like he was building the family he might not have had, or there's clearly some attachment challenges there if he wants to sell the brands but not the people. (laughs)

   2. NKNicola Kilner18:08

      Yeah.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett18:08

      And, and again, the heartbreak associated with leaving these companies was all about losing relationships. A lot of that speaks to something that must have happened early.

   4. NKNicola Kilner18:17

      Yeah. So, I think it, it, it was around building a family of ... He never wanted anyone to leave him, and he wanted DECIEM to, to be a place of belonging. And actually, even now we have belonging as our kind of north star. Like, the most important thing anyone in our team should feel is that they belong at DECIEM. Whoever they are, whatever they believe in, like, there is a place for them at DECIEM. And I think that really comes from this, like, sense of family. And I think ... And you know, again, like a, even like at my, my husband's world, I, I do think start-ups, because you're working in a very intense environment, it does build relationships far deeper than, well, I ever experienced at Boots and that I think would exist in, in corporates. So, this sense of family, I think, you know, we would've taken a bullet for each other. And I think even now, like, within, within DECIEM, you know, we're 1,500 people now, but we still have so many of those early team members. And I s-

   5. SBSteven Bartlett19:19

      Sounds like a cult.

   6. NKNicola Kilner19:20

      It is. But actually-

   7. SBSteven Bartlett19:21

      (laughs)

   8. NKNicola Kilner19:21

      ... a very happy one.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett19:22

      You can't say that, yeah. (laughs)

   10. NKNicola Kilner19:23

       It's like a-

   11. SBSteven Bartlett19:23

       This morning I did a- this morning I did a talk, and I said, "Listen, I'm gonna say something here which might get me in trouble." I'm like, "You've got to scale from a cult." (laughs) I was like-

   12. NKNicola Kilner19:30

       Yeah.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett19:31

       I always have to disclaimer it and explain, "Cults are really bad, of course, and you know, they manipulate people." But this is what I mean. It's that, that sense of dedication, we're-all-in-this-together, inspirational founder, mission you all believe in, and you believe you're right regardless of what the outside world says. You're on a mission. You're sleeping under the ta- you know?

   14. NKNicola Kilner19:47

       Yeah. Well, it's-

   15. SBSteven Bartlett19:48

       (laughs)

   16. NKNicola Kilner19:48

       They always say that, you know, you can, you can d- like, complain about your parents, but if anyone else says a bad word about your parents-

   17. SBSteven Bartlett19:55

       Yeah. (laughs)

   18. NKNicola Kilner19:55

       ... you're like, "No." Like, even if they're saying the same thing you've said. And DECIEM's like that, you know, like, you can compl- like, internally-

   19. SBSteven Bartlett20:01

       Mm-hmm.

   20. NKNicola Kilner20:01

       Like, maybe there's not in this process, but if anyone says a bad word, you-

   21. SBSteven Bartlett20:04

       Mm-hmm.

   22. NKNicola Kilner20:04

       ... come straight to the defense. But I think there was just so much love and passion. And again, Brandon cared for all of us. Like, he had so much love that you gave it back.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett20:14

       Mm-hmm.

   24. NKNicola Kilner20:14

       And that's why it was so difficult, you know, when we, when we went through the, the unthinkable and things became so difficult, because it, it wasn't a colleague. Like, you've just lived this incredible journey of us all traveling together, building something so special. Like, just this, such a sense of we're-all-in-this-together. Like, even when times are hard, like, we've got each other's backs, and things may not work out, but actually let's just have fun, let's learn things, and let's just keep trying. Like, let's never be afraid to fail, um, and let's just do it together.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett20:46

       People hear that, and they see the outcome. So, everything you've described there is the outcome. You've got this great culture, people are dedicated, they're loyal, they're on this mission. Wh- what people will be thinking, because they'll be sat in their offices now working somewhere, or they'll be building a company of their own ... In fact, this young lady came up to me this morning and asked me this question when I was, um, doing this talk. She said, "I've got this small team, and I'm trying to create exactly what you've described, that kind of real dedicated kinda cult-like, um, company culture where everyone's in it." How? H- h- how does one create it? It's so, it's actually quite difficult to explain how it comes together, because in many cases from what I've observed, it's not necessarily intentional, i.e., there wasn't a, uh, it wasn't like, a strategic, um, drawn-up plan to make people really care. It was quite a natural thing that resulted in that sort of deep sense of care from-

   26. NKNicola Kilner21:41

       Mm-hmm.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett21:42

       ... the team members. Um, I'll offer up one thing, which you said, which I thought was spot on, which people often overlook, which is fun.

   28. NKNicola Kilner21:48

       Yeah.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett21:49

       People think of, you know, people think, "Well, we'll, we'll give perks, and this and ..." But it's all the things that happen outside of the work that seem to do most of the work in creating that cult.

   30. NKNicola Kilner21:58

       And y- you come up with the best ideas.
7. 26:02 – 31:38

   Work-life balance

   1. SBSteven Bartlett26:02

      What do you think of this concept of work-life balance? You know, I had someone on the podcast the other day and he's called Alex Hormozi, and he was saying that, um, he was like, "People need to stop having a conversation around work-life balance because it kind of assumes that there is such a thing as a universal balance that we should all be striking." Whereas as you described it, you were happy. And you... Okay, your life, uh, might have been slightly one-dimensional, but (laughs) but you were happy. And surely that happiness is the most important thing. And Alex Hormozi says, "Listen, I do two things. I work and I play video games. That's it. And I'm happy. So stop telling me to do work-life balance. I'm happy."

   2. NKNicola Kilner26:38

      Yeah. 100% agree, and I think, you know, it's, it comes down to what's- what's the right balance to you? And it changes at different periods of your life. So y- I was in my 20s. I was fine on my maybe sacrificed nights out and kind of doing other things. But I was so happy being traveling all the time, being in this kind of Deciem bubble, creating all of these- this magic. And to me, that's such a powerful concept around how do we achieve balance at different periods of your life? We're all gonna have periods where we can be working every hour and we love it. And actually it's our, it's our work, but also it's our hobby, it's our downtime because we just love it so much. Then you have another period of your life where, you know, maybe you have a- an elderly parent that needs your support. Maybe you're going through some challenges, you've got young children. How do we step up and support each other to say, "Do you know what? I've got you here. You do this bit, I'll cover those bits for you." Because in another few years, maybe it switches around. And again, that's something that I think is- is so unique to when we say a family culture, that to me is an example of kindness that I think really actually demonstrates it.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett27:47

      There has been a debate, hasn't there, about the use of the word family in the corporate world? People think it means... It kind of asserts that there's a lack of boundaries. And these are not, you know, Netflix's whole culture document, which is like, "We're not a family, we're a high performance team." Um, and I think I have struggled to figure out where I- I sit on it because there are many elements of the family culture that I always want in my businesses. That sort of care, that going above and beyond, the way, you know... A deeper sense of relationship that's non-transactional. And then also on the other hand, you don't fire your family (laughs) . You know? So it's what- what- what is that balance between family and high performance team?

   4. NKNicola Kilner28:31

      So for me, family is about belonging.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett28:33

      Okay.

   6. NKNicola Kilner28:33

      And- and everyone just really feeling like they have a- a safe place to be and that they are loved. I think kindness sometimes is mistaken for weakness. And- and also I think there's- there's a conflict between the words being kind and being nice. Being nice is- is kind, but can be superficial, you know? You see a stranger on the street, you're like, "Hi, how are..." You know, you open the door. It's nice, but do you truly mean like, "How are you?" Or are you just kind of passing it? If someone's not performing at work, it's not necessarily a nice thing to have that conversation with them. But it is a kind thing, because if your intention is to help them, and the help may be, "This is maybe a different role that we see in the company which we think you're more suited for. It may be that we think you need this coaching, this training to get to where you need to be." And it may be that, "Look, you're in this role, but we're not seeing the delivery here. We actually think the better option for you is- is outside." And now when we've done terminations, you know, we've done things around like, how do we do counseling where actually it helps someone to look for another career depending on kind of what role it is and- and the reasons why we're leaving? Because to me then that's a kind of way we're actually trying to help that person. And the other thing, you know, o- our business, we- we were like kind of this and we like had a rocket ship kind of boomed. And then, then we came to a dimp just after, after kind of COVID. It hit me when I realized if our numbers don't pick up again, we're gonna have to let people go. Mm-hmm.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett30:04

      Because actually that is the consequence of business. Like y- you're- you're there to kind of do many things, but ultimately like one factor of that is- is to be a business and to make money. And if you start to not hit your numbers, ultimately like you can't lose money for long, people will start to say, "You have to save money." Where does that come from? Headcount. And I think that then hit me again that...

   8. NKNicola Kilner30:27

      ... okay, we have to perform, so to be kind to everyone, we have to be a performing team. So again, I think you can be high performing, but by being kind, I think you can make everyone feel safe and trusted that, again, if you have to make the hard decision, you're gonna do it in the way to be as kind as possible and actually, you know, have the action to try and help.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett30:51

      Quick one before we get back to this episode. Just give me 30 seconds of your time. Two things I wanted to say. The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show week after week. It means the world to all of us, and this really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn't have imagined getting to this place. But secondly, it's a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started. And if you enjoy what we do here, please join the 24% of people who watch this channel regularly and have hit the subscribe button. It means more than I can say. And if you hit that subscribe button, here's a promise I'm gonna make to you. I'm gonna do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can now and into the future. We're gonna deliver the guests that you want me to speak to, and we're gonna continue to keep doing all of the things you love about this show. Thank you. Thank you so much. Back to the episode.

8. 31:38 – 37:54

   Why do you call yourself 'an unqualified CEO’

   1. SBSteven Bartlett31:38

      I heard you say something which was that you, um, you're the least qualified CEO ever.

   2. NKNicola Kilner31:45

      Yep.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett31:46

      You don't sound like the least qualified CEO ever. I guess you've been through some shit, so... (laughs)

   4. NKNicola Kilner31:52

      (laughs) Uh, I definitely am. And again, you know, you have to... I was there from the beginning, and being someone who can, you know, play a leader for an organization of 10 people, 20 people, 100 people is a very different skill set to, you know, we are 1500 people, we now have a majority ownership from, uh, Estee Lauder Companies, who are a public company. Our whole world has changed. And, and rightly so, because being a much bigger organization, we have to be far more organized and planning, and I wouldn't say those are necessarily my skill sets. And again, when, you know, the, the kind of dip I mentioned was a very difficult period because we'd, we'd just been on this rocket ship of, you know, even when things were difficult, the one thing that always... we were always ahead of budget, targets, whatever anyone set for us. We always were just overachieving, which feels incredible when you're in business. Like, if, if you hit numbers then everything else just falls into place. And I remember, like, you lose confidence, and I remember actually saying to, to Stefan, who, um, is... we report into a ELC, who's like an incredible person, but each time when I used to say, "Well," like, you know, "This is, is not going right." And I, I said, like, "I'll resign. Like, I'm not the person." But then I was like, "I need help." Like, I was like, "I can't do this. Like I'm, I'm not the CEO who understands numbers in the right way, who plans." Like, I changed my mind. And again, like, you think about all the things as, as a, as a startup, you can do things quickly. You can change. If you change your mind on a decision when you now have many more people working on it, you demotivate people. You become... Chaos is fun in a startup. In a large organization, chaos can become demotivating. So then I was very fortunate that we did bring in, um, a very incredible general manager who joined us about a year ago, and he has had such a transformation on the company because he can't believe just the basics we didn't have in place, and because we'd grown so quickly, and it's now to get that balance between, you know, there's, there's areas we don't want ex- any experience but DECIEM's when it comes to, like, brand and innovation, our values, things that we are so passionate about. When it comes to supply chain and scaling and new markets, we need experience. So actually having the GM come in that actually could kind of take control of those and then actually allow me to focus on the areas which I'm much more passionate about, which is the, the brand area, our people, culture, belonging, social impact. It's just made a huge difference to the business.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett34:33

      So two things there. You offering up your, uh, essentially resignation from your, your role when things were a little bit tricky, it's giving me imposter syndrome.

   6. NKNicola Kilner34:47

      I'd like to think more just like a realist of-

   7. SBSteven Bartlett34:50

      Have you ever had imposter syndrome? 'Cause, you know, saying this quote here about being the least qualified CEO ever, what is- is-

   8. NKNicola Kilner34:57

      Uh, from a, from a traditional perspective. For example, if I went now to, you know, a co- another company with revenues nearing a billion dollars a year with 1500 employees, I wouldn't be a good CEO.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett35:10

      Mm-hmm.

   10. NKNicola Kilner35:10

       I think I could be a good people person. I think I could help on values, on brand. Now, obviously there's an argument of, like, a modern CEO, and I think especially for there's no one more qualified for DECIEM than me because of the history, but when I think about just the pure metrics and the size of the business, it needed someone with some more experience. And again, I'm a big believer on, you know, I'm... anyone who thinks they're the expert at everything, they're not. And I think I'm a good person at relationships and hopefully bringing people on for their journey, hopefully people feeling how appreciative and, and truly grateful I a- I am that they choose to kind of be at DECIEM and give their all every day. But there are many areas that I'm not good at all. And actually having trusted people to support that is amazing, and I always do think myself more, you know, it's, it's kind of like the conductor of an orchestra, like, being aware, except I'm not very organized. So the bigger you get then suddenly you do need someone that maybe has got more technical skills.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett36:12

       It's interesting 'cause when I asked that question about the imposter syndrome thing, I immediately reflected upon it, and I thought, it's funny how imposter syndrome and self-awareness can sound s- very, very similar. And, and that's in fact from speaking to some of your team. One of the things they repeatedly said...... to us, was about your self-awareness, and I even reflect, going back early to your time at Boots, where you were considering, contemplating becoming a buyer. And the first thing you're doing there is saying, "Does that suit my skillset and what makes me happy?"

   12. NKNicola Kilner36:43

       Mm-hmm.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett36:43

       I mean, your team said it. They said your quote is that, "She isn't afraid to, to tell you, and she instinctively knows what her strengths and weaknesses are."

   14. NKNicola Kilner36:50

       But I think it's the only way to be authentic. You know, trying to be something that, that you're not or something that doesn't make you happy is- is not really good for anyone. And I actually think, like, authenticity, in today's world, I think, is a value that is- is one of the most important because otherwise, you- you get called out. It'd be crazy for me to say that I'm good at the finance piece. I'm not. It's not a strength. But we have an incredible VP of finance. We've got an incredible general manager that truly understands it. So I think, actually, just playing to your strengths and allowing others to play to their strengths is actually what brings out authenticity.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett37:27

       I- I should probably read this. Your team said, "She delegates a lot and very well. She very instinctively knows her strengths and her weaknesses. She isn't afraid to bring on knowledge and talent for those weaknesses." Her team says, "She's incredibly self-aware, and also, she's literally a ray of sunshine."

   16. NKNicola Kilner37:48

       (laughs)

   17. SBSteven Bartlett37:48

       How much did you pay-

   18. NKNicola Kilner37:50

       (laughs)

   19. SBSteven Bartlett37:50

       ... Jenny in-

   20. NKNicola Kilner37:51

       (laughs)

   21. SBSteven Bartlett37:51

       ... marketin- no, I'm joking.

   22. NKNicola Kilner37:52

       It was kind.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett37:53

       2017,

9. 37:54 – 45:14

   The Ordinary's success

   1. SBSteven Bartlett37:54

      um, you launch The Ordinary in 2016?

   2. NKNicola Kilner37:59

      Yeah, at the end of 2016.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett38:01

      At the end of 2016.

   4. NKNicola Kilner38:02

      Mm-hmm.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett38:04

      And then 2017 is The Ordinary's breakout year.

   6. NKNicola Kilner38:07

      Yep.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett38:09

      Breakout year, how would you quantify that? Give us an idea.

   8. NKNicola Kilner38:13

      The minute it launched, we couldn't keep it in stock. It was ... And- and again, from ... We'd come ... So The Ordinary was the eleventh brand that we came up with a concept for.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett38:25

      Wait, that- that violates the name.

   10. NKNicola Kilner38:27

       I know. (laughs)

   11. SBSteven Bartlett38:27

       It was meant to be ten.

   12. NKNicola Kilner38:29

       But we don't focus, so we can change our mind.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett38:31

       Wow.

   14. NKNicola Kilner38:31

       So we kept going and-

   15. SBSteven Bartlett38:34

       What's the Latin word for eleven? (laughs)

   16. NKNicola Kilner38:36

       I don't know. Maybe- maybe a company name change. With The Ordinary, I don't think we ever thought it would ... We never dreamt it would become what it's- what it's become today. We launched The Ordinary out of frustration that there wasn't enough transparency in the world of skincare. And, you know, we took inspiration from the world of pharmacy. If you have a headache, you can go into a pharmacy. You buy paracetamol. You're gonna be paying, you know, 50p to £3.00. It's a very small window. No one can sell you paracetamol for £100 because you know the ingredient, you know the milligram. The trust is there because the transparency has been in that industry. That didn't exist in the world of skincare, which meant that if you walked into a beauty hall to pick a skincare product, you may see actually a rel- relatively similar formula being sold for £10, being sold for £100. And actually not really understanding what's the difference. You know, is it the marketing you're paying for? We kind of have this assumption, does, like, paying more mean more? But if you go into Boots and you see a new £100 painkiller, are you gonna trust it or are you just gonna take the ingredient that's safe and effective and trusted? And I think the reason we were feeling frustrated was because for NIOD, we were really using brand new technologies that were very expensive and no one else was using these, so it was kind of true innovation. So we said, "Well, actually, let's- let's take this approach of people ..." Because again, the- some of the ingredients we use in The Ordinary, they may have been around for decades. That's not a bad thing. If something's been around for a long time, there's so much research done, there's so much safety. And again, just like paracetamol, aspirin, we don't always need new if you've actually found a solution that has incredible effects. We presented the concept of The Ordinary to two significant retailers, two of our, you know, big partners now, who both said no to launching the brand. And this was when we were kind of still at concept stage, before we'd even, um, created- like produced our first product. They said it was too confusing, white boxes will collect dust, you know, you need to just rename the products to be anti-aging serum, radiant serum, effectively just what everyone else looked like in the industry. And because we had these- this umbrella and we had different brands, it gave us the confidence to say no because, you know, we- we were doing okay for ourselves. Like, we could cover everyone's payroll. We- we kind of had traction with some of the other brands, but we said, "No, let's- let's follow our gut," which again, is a- a privilege to be able to say that because I know for so many entrepreneurs, cashflow is- is a killer and it can be so difficult to say no to a listing that you know could be worth significant money. But we said, "Actually, no. We really believe that actually this transparency is what's missing in the beauty industry." So, you know, we ... The Ordinary launched and it- it just honestly was a rocket ship that even today, we ... And for our VP of supply chain has, you know, we're producing 400,000 units every single day at the moment in our manufacturing in Toronto. We still have retailers, if you go into Boots, you'll still see lots of out of sup- stocks on the- on the shelf. Like, we still struggle to keep up with demand six years later since we launched the brand. And that has been f- it's just been an- an incredible story, but I mean, when we look back at 2017, we knew we needed kind of more money to scale, so we started looking for investment.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett42:05

       Which is how many months after launch?

   18. NKNicola Kilner42:06

       Um, oh, The Ordinary was, like, three months old. Deciem was four years old, um, and again, we'd- we were doing okay. Like, we had some success stories, not anywhere near the scale of- of kinda where The Ordinary went to. We met with different private equity firms, there was, like, another huge, um, conglomerate who we had lots of meetings with, and we ended up meeting with, um, Estee Lauder Companies in April.And it was eight weeks from our very first meeting to the deal being signed, which was due diligence, negotiations, everything. It was ... especially for a corporate with a board, a public company. It was, it was just this huge energy from the moment we, they came to Toronto, the, the kind of M&A team. Then they were like, "We, we need you to come to New York. We want you to meet Leonard. We want to meet you, meet you, Fabrizio, our CEO. We want you to kind of meet this team." And I remember seeing Fabrizio, the CEO, who I have a huge amount of respect and admiration for, and the deal was done within like 30 minutes of meeting because they just saw this, I think the energy, particularly from Brandon, like Brandon and I were in the room, like just this creativity, this passion and The Ordinary was just starting to kind of create these kind of rumbles. And I think they, you know, ultimately they believed in the concept. They believed in what we wanted to do. So they, uh, the deal signed in June, they became a minority investor. Uh, they, they took 29% of the company. And I actually, you know, with DECIEM today, we have had more time with ELC than without ELC.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett43:41

       ELC?

   20. NKNicola Kilner43:42

       Estee Lauder Companies.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett43:43

       Okay.

   22. NKNicola Kilner43:44

       When acquisitions happen, I think companies go from zero to a hundred percent.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett43:49

       Mm-hmm.

   24. NKNicola Kilner43:50

       You know, we're at 70 ... they, they own 76% now of DECIEM, and it will go to 100%, um, next summer. And actually, that process will have been seven years.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett44:00

       Mm-hmm.

   26. NKNicola Kilner44:00

       Which actually is one, I think quite forward. I haven't seen many deals like that done, I think between kind of a startup and, um, you know, a, a larger company, but actually it's just been this amazing different chapters of us both getting to know each other, learning each other's strengths. I think having a lot of respect for, you know, where, where we need help and where we kind of need to be left alone. Um, so actually it's just been this really nice journey and, you know, DECIEM were in our 10th year, uh, this year, um, and six years of those, we've had the partnership of Estee Lauder Companies.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett44:36

       29% they took, and I ... It's rumored the valuation was about 1.5 billion.

   28. NKNicola Kilner44:41

       Uh, in, so in the, the last ... in the 2021 investment.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett44:46

       Ah, ah, okay. Right.

   30. NKNicola Kilner44:47

       Yeah. It was, I think valued at 2.2 billion US dollars.
10. 45:14 – 53:05

    My co-founder started acting differently

    1. SBSteven Bartlett45:14

       We move on then from 2017 to 2018. Um, and this is really where Brandon's behavior started to change.

    2. NKNicola Kilner45:23

       Mm-hmm. It truly happened what felt like overnight. So at the, the end of 2017, so, so we, we closed the investment in the summer, and again, The Ordinary at the end of 2017, it's, it's a year old, it's having this incredible ... just people are warming to it. People are loving the concept. You know, I always think of The Ordinary as like a community brand because it really was spread through word of mouth endorsements. And I remember my husband and I, we went to New Zealand and Australia for, for kind of the, the, the Christmas break. And then I remember getting this call from, from Brandon saying, you know, "You need to go straight to the airport with whatever," like, he was like, "Have you got your passport?" I said, "Yes." He said, "You go straight to the airport now. Book a first class flight. Come straight to Toronto on the next flight. Turn your phone off, turn your emails." He was just like, "Calm down. Let's, let's be relaxed. But you need to come immediately."

    3. SBSteven Bartlett46:20

       So he didn't tell you why?

    4. NKNicola Kilner46:22

       No, but I, I could just sense it was an entirely different person I was speaking to.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett46:27

       All of a sudden?

    6. NKNicola Kilner46:29

       Over that, over that break in the holidays, I mean, the flight from Australia to Toronto, I think I was on the plane, you know, traveling for about 20 hours. I cried the entire way because I knew something really bad was happening. And I guess, so just kind of towards the end of 2017, and again, I have to say Brandon is someone who he, he would have like one drink in the month, like he barely drank as far as I know him. You know, we spent so much time together, like wouldn't do drugs, was just a ... he was high on energy and happy as just drinking Diet Coke and eating fries with ketchup type person. Towards the end of 2017, he'd become intrigued, I think by magic mushrooms and just kind of this, uh, idea of, you know, can you access different parts of your brain? And again, this was just something like in Amsterdam where it's legal and it's kind of just this almost just this inquisitive actually, how does, how does the mind work? And I knew he'd planned to go to Amsterdam over New Year to kind of experiment with some of his learnings on kind of mushrooms and, and, and different dosages. And, and I'm someone who's quite anti-drugs. Like, I've always been kind of ... I like to be well-behaved, and I don't like to kind of break an- break any rules, um, in, in those senses. And I just had this awful feeling, and I came back to Toronto and he summoned, you know, if ... uh, around 10 of us to have this meeting in the Distillery store, uh, which was one of our, our DECIEM stores in Toronto that we, we closed for the day. And everything had changed. And it was just like talking to a stranger. He had this like coldness in his eyes, and he'd gone from someone who, you know, the second you see him, there'd be hugs. There was just so much warmth. You know, all of his emails would have hearts on, it was just kind of all of this love in, in messages and kind of just being. He's just this almost kind of zoned out, cold person that suddenly almost felt like, kind of just had this like-... it's like he didn't understand. There was no understanding anymore between him and any of us. He spoke around things where, you know, we've- we're- we're too caught up now in the concept of time. So for example, he said to me, like, the- the next day when, you know, we'd meet for coffee and, you know, our routine for the previous four years has been he'd text me, he'd be like, "I'll pick you up at 7:00 AM." We'd go to a coffee shop, we'd get, you know, breakfast, and head to the office. And he suddenly was like, "There's no time anymore. I'm gonna meet you in the coffee shop tomorrow, but we don't need to tell each other a time. We'll just be there when we're supposed to be there." And I remember finding it really hard because he truly was... is such a genius and a visionary, and this has happened so quickly. And I remember, like, ringing- ringing Sean and saying like, "Does he- does he have a point? Like, are we too caught up in time? Like, is this just- like, are we taking things the wrong way?" That's why I had a lot of confusion just around that how could something change so quickly. And again, this is someone who, you know, over the four or five years of being, like, insanely close to him, you know, we- I was in- going to Toronto at this point for, like, three weeks out of the month and we'd have every dinner together, breakfast together, lunch together, every weekend together. And never seeing any episodes of- of mental health or anything changing, so to suddenly have this drastic change of someone you loved, but someone suddenly who feels like he's completely closing the door to you and kind of pushing you out, this was an- a different person who was angry, shouting, crying, scary. It was suddenly very cold to everyone. And then, so everyone's very confused, very upset, and then there's business things that start to happen that make no sense that are actually quite mean, you know. Canceling a brand on Instagram, a big partnership we had done with someone, canceling a retailer on Instagram.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett50:41

       What, so he- he went on Instagram and told them- said to your following on Instagram that...

    8. NKNicola Kilner50:46

       "This brand's no longer gonna exist." So he-

    9. SBSteven Bartlett50:48

       Before telling them?

    10. NKNicola Kilner50:49

        Yeah. So we'd spent all of this time with Dr. Esho, uh, building this brand.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett50:54

        I know Dr. Esho.

    12. NKNicola Kilner50:55

        Yeah, and then it canceled- like, Tjon found out on Instagram with everyone else that this brand that he'd put all this passion and energy in was ended. Retailers were ended. It became... it was just horrible, so I did challenge him, and what happened when I challenged him was I got a- a meanest, meanest response around how I just don't understand him of all the people I- I should understand.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett51:19

        Gasp.

    14. NKNicola Kilner51:20

        And, and just-

    15. SBSteven Bartlett51:21

        Nice one.

    16. NKNicola Kilner51:21

        Yeah, and be like you look back and, like, nothing was making any sense, and then I got fired because again- and he wasn't technically allowed to, like, you know, you need board approval and all of these things, but there was- there was no ration- rational actions at this time. So this- this just accelerated so quickly, and then it's so difficult because then anyone who's trying to help gets pushed out, so then everyone's- and again, like, in the background, like, I'm... 'cause it's all of these early team members, like, everyone wants to help him and protect him, and everyone's like, "What do we do?" And- and you know, that's the hardest thing about, you know, mental health and drug abuse, which then, like, circle together, but ultimately when it's affecting someone's brain, they can't necessarily recognize that themselves. And someone said to me, "It's like you're speaking Polish to them. You may think you're speaking English, a common language. There is no understanding in that conversation of what each other is saying." And actually that- that did start to make sense. But it was just very difficult and I think, you know, again, I got fired in February, so, like, a month into this, and it been the worst month of my life, like, truly, like, horrendous, like, so emotionally difficult.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett52:38

        What happened in that break? Do you know? Have you got any suspicions?

    18. NKNicola Kilner52:42

        Yeah, I think he's... well, yeah, he was very curious and I think he- he took everything to an extreme, and I think he'd been reading a lot around psychedelics and kind of how to access different parts of your brain, and I think he experimented a lot during that break.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett52:59

        And do you think that triggered some kind of psychotic episode?

    20. NKNicola Kilner53:04

        Yeah.

11. 53:05 – 1:04:03

    He fired me from my own company!

    1. SBSteven Bartlett53:05

       So on that point about being fired...

    2. NKNicola Kilner53:07

       Yeah.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett53:07

       How- how were you fired?

    4. NKNicola Kilner53:09

       I knew it was coming.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett53:11

       What- how? Why?

    6. NKNicola Kilner53:12

       Because he'd- I'd gone from being... we were inseparable to I was suddenly pushed out of everything. Excluded from conversation- conversations, emails. He'd came to London. He was in London at the time when I- when I got fired, and again, when he'd landed in London, from the minute he landed to the minute he left, we would be together. And I- I didn't- I barely saw him. And-

    7. SBSteven Bartlett53:38

       How did that feel?

    8. NKNicola Kilner53:40

       So hurtful, because... hurtful and confusing and just really hard and- and I guess you have, like, a whole team who are like, "What's happening?" Everyone is scared because it's a very strong personality who now could take anything anyone in the team said the wrong way and kind of someone could be at the end of quite, you know, an explosion of anger, which again, was never there before. So it's just a very difficult situation of one where you just- you don't even understand it, which I think is what makes it so hard. But I'd also... I think at that point, we didn't maybe know the extent of how- how things were gonna spiral from there or how mentally unwell he was because, I mean, six weeks earlier, he'd been- he'd been the Brandon like we all knew and loved, so it was such a quick turnaround and change. And I remember getting a call from- from the- the person who ran our HR at the time.And I remember just saying, like, "I know, like, he wants to fire me." And obviously she said, "Yeah." And then, um, and I remember just, like, crying my eyes out. And actually, at the time, the, um, person from Estee Lauder Companies who was on the M&A team, who was based in New York, um, he was in London at the time. And I went to meet him, and I remember just saying, like, "I'm scared because I don't know what's happening. And this is someone who's just entirely changed, and I don't know what to do to help him." And I remember then, you know, the confusion of someone's now acting. It doesn't matter what agreements are in place, this is now someone acting irrationally. But we've got to act in a certain way because it's someone who is so unpredictable in the way. And again, I think at this point, I hadn't really realized how bad things were going to be, and you know, part of you thinks like, "Maybe it is me." Like, maybe I'm not the right person to be there anymore and maybe for whatever reason, like, he thinks I don't believe in the vision or things have just changed. My husband, who's like, the most supportive person in the world but also very calm, takes such a, like, relaxed approach to anything. Like, nothing is a problem to him in- in his world in a very positive way. He, like, booked us a holiday, he was like, "Let's just get away." And like, you know, it's been, like, a very hard month. Right now, Brandon, like, doesn't want you. We can't change that, so let's just focus on just, like, taking a moment just to kind of reflect. Um, and obviously I'd always wanted children. We'd been married for a few years at this time. I'd never wanted them whilst I was in, like, the busyness of Deciem, because I wanted the time to enjoy being, you know, a mum of young children. So, we were like, "Let's- let's try and have a baby." So, I got pregnant in the march, um, and-

    9. SBSteven Bartlett56:46

       A month later?

    10. NKNicola Kilner56:47

        Yeah. And, um, but then at that point, things were spiraling with Brandon, and you know, abusive emails were being sent, uh, targeting everyone. He was firing so many people within the business, firing people and copying the whole company in, copying retailers in, press in, and it became clear, like, things were really unwell. Um, and I remember, I think being about six weeks pregnant, and I was being targeted on, like, some of these emails. And I remember thinking, "If I tell him I'm pregnant, because I know he's so kind, then maybe he'll, like, leave me alone. Or it might, like, impact something that he announced on Instagram." And I was like six weeks pregnant. And if- and something like that happens, you know someone's not rational, like, no good human being does that to someone. And then it became really hard because I was still in this situation of loving him so much, wanting to help him, feeling ... just not knowing what to do. Also having, like, the company, like, having ... everyone still coming to me, asking me, like, "What should we do?" Because you've got someone saying things that make no sense and being, you know, he was just very, very unwell. So, I was still trying to, like, help people in the background, keep things going with the business. Obviously, you know, trying to be in the early stages of pregnancy, which now obviously the whole world knew, um, and it was just really, really hard. And I remember when he first got sectioned, feeling such a sense of relief that he was finally gonna get the treatment he needed to get better. And it was actually in- in London when he got sectioned for the first time, and then he- he was out five days later.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett58:56

        Wow.

    12. NKNicola Kilner58:56

        And then that was the start of, you know, over that 2018, he got sectioned five times across London, across Canada, across America. And each time, would just get released a short period after. And then that's when I started to- to almost kind of ... you- you lose the hope of like, how can- how can we help this person when he keeps getting into these terrible ... Like, you know, to get sectioned, you're in a terrible situation for authorities to actually come in and remove you for your own safety. But then this would just happen again, and it was- it's almost like there wasn't even a connection between like the countries and the medical systems and- and kind of like how that all works. It's- it's confusing. But he- he has to ... In the- in the June, you know, he was sending me videos crying and just saying like, "I need you back. I don't know what I've done." Like, "I'm so sorry." And I remember feeling like, I could- I can't help if I'm not there. Maybe if I'm with him, maybe I can help him. So, I- I went back and the first week I went back we went to Morocco, 'cause he was like, "You know, we need to plan. Like, we need to get the business things sorted again." And- and actually, it felt like a normal-ish conversation, so I remember feeling like, you know, maybe- maybe things can get better. And I remember the week in Morocco just, things were worse than ever. Things had got even worse in that time I'd- I'd been away. And it's just ... it's a helpless situation, and I have so much empathy for anyone who-... well, one, the people who struggle with, with mental health and, and addiction, but also for the people surrounding them, because it's a very toxic environment to be in. One, because you're, you're, you're being abused, but secondly you're losing a loved person, and thirdly you just feel like you can't help. Because, again, with so many other health issues, when you're not battling with the brain, there's more acceptance of treatment to get better. But that just doesn't exist in, in the same way.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:15

        I can tell how much you loved him.

    14. NKNicola Kilner1:01:17

        Honestly, he was like ... And this is what I find so hard, like, he, he really was so kind and, like, would do anything, and again, like, you know when I talk about DECIEM being a family, in his estate, in his will, every single beneficiary is a DECIEM employee. Like, that's, that's this family bond that was just so strong. So just to see that go ... And again, like, everything was played out on Instagram. Brandon was doing all of these posts in terrible situations, and it's a very hard line. I mean, we'd, we'd talk to Instagram, like this, it's such a free, it's such a difficult ... You have free speech, you have someone, like, it's, it's a platform, like people can, can post what they want, you know, some things would, would get removed, others wouldn't. But it was just an awful situation to be in. And I think everyone just had such a huge desire to help him, um, and like, in this time period. I mean, even like, Estee Lauder companies were behind the scenes, they were so supportive to us. But again, you have, you know, you go on Instagram and you see all these comments, "Why is no one helping him? What are you all doing?" And again, it's, it's so hard because people don't see that situation of, it is pretty much impossible to help. And then you have people that say, "Look, someone has to reach rock bottom, like, they have to just reach rock bottom until they get better." So then in, in October, Brandon had done an, an Instagram post basically saying he was shutting down the entire company and there would be no more DECIEM, and obviously that was the point when the, the shareholders had to step in because suddenly, you know, there's, I think at that point we had 800 employees, like, there was everyone's jobs on the line, and, and again, you think, look, maybe, maybe this is the, the kind of bottom point he needs to reach to actually understand he needs to get help. So that's when the court order happened to remove Brandon from the company, which again, is an incredibly hard situation because no one wants to remove the founder who they care so much about, and you know, a founder who is such a visionary and is the brand. Like, to feel like he is being forcibly removed from his own company is very difficult. But you've also got a situation where everything was public, so every email sent had the whole company on CC, had all the journalists, had all of our retailers, had customers on, Instagram posts were obviously going to everyone. So you're also living this out in public, which I think also makes it a lot harder. So in October he got removed as the CEO.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:02

        Reflecting

12. 1:04:03 – 1:09:12

    We had to take drastic measures

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:03

       on what you said to me at the s- earlier in the conversation about him wanting to keep the family together and be part of the family based on his own early experiences, maybe his own, um, family upbringing, that must have been particularly painful for him. Seems like he had desig- designed this company to be a family, and that's clearly one, one of the most important things for him. So for him to be ousted from his quote unquote family must have been tremendously painful. Did you ever learn about his early years? Did you ever learn about his, his own background? His family?

    2. NKNicola Kilner1:04:33

       Yeah. I actually ... It's interesting because for how close I was to him, when he became unwell, I actually learnt how much I didn't know about him, and I think, you know, he just, I think he had a lot of challenges of never feeling accepted for who he was. Which makes me so sad because me as a person, and, and especially like the DECIEM that we have now, like, we truly accept anyone and love anyone. It doesn't matter, like, who you choose to love, where you're from, like, you belong to us and, like, we are grateful if you want to be part of the family, you are, you are the family. So I find it hard that he never felt that accept- ... He never felt like he could be his true self, which I think I only learned more when he became unwell.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:27

       How?

    4. NKNicola Kilner1:05:28

       Um, like he'd had Riyad, he'd had this incredible life partner for 10 years that I didn't even know about.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:36

       A romantic partner?

    6. NKNicola Kilner1:05:37

       Yeah.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:38

       A husband? A, a boyfriend?

    8. NKNicola Kilner1:05:40

       Pretty much, yeah. And, and again, like those things when ... I mean, that's a big thing to hide from someone.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:47

       Why was he hiding it?

    10. NKNicola Kilner1:05:49

        Well, I can only think that was him feeling like he wouldn't be accepted for it. And I mean, it-

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:55

        Because it's a man?

    12. NKNicola Kilner1:05:56

        Yeah. And I mean, well, in the world today, but I mean especially the beauty, like, it's ... I'm so proud of the, the, you know, the, the diverse team we have. Like, he would've been so accepted. But I mean, he was from Iran.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:11

        Mm-hmm.

    14. NKNicola Kilner1:06:11

        I think he maybe just had ... Well, I don't know, I can't say the reason, because-

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:15

        Attitudes are different in a-

    16. NKNicola Kilner1:06:16

        Yeah.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:16

        ... you know?

    18. NKNicola Kilner1:06:17

        Um, but he clearly never felt like he could share with the world who he truly was. And I mean, that's, that's a huge thing to carry.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:25

        What about his parents?

    20. NKNicola Kilner1:06:26

        So his mother died when he was very young, and I think he had a challenged relationship with his father. But again, I only learned a lot when he became ill, and I also have a battle with, if you didn't want to tell me-... he didn't want people to know. So there's kind of a balance of, you know, I have so many things that, gosh, I wish I could ask him.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:50

        What are those things?

    22. NKNicola Kilner1:06:52

        About his childhood, about who is, about why he felt the need to keep things secret, and then also just to understand because, you know, people say to me like he, like, "Did he have any signs of, of mental health challenges before?" And, and again, it depends on what you consider traits of mental health, but, no, I mean, he was eccentric and he was, you know, high intensity in, in many things that I think are, are traits often of founders. I mean, I would love to understand more, like, how do we support people with mental health? Because, again, I mean, for someone to be sectioned five times-

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:31

        Why was he sectioned? Uh-

    24. NKNicola Kilner1:07:33

        He would just be in very bad situations. Police would come and get involved, and then-

    25. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:37

        Drugs?

    26. NKNicola Kilner1:07:38

        ... drugs, mental health, and again, it's so hard to diagnose-

    27. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:41

        Mm, cause and effect.

    28. NKNicola Kilner1:07:42

        ... because, yeah, they, they both kind of spiraled, spiraled each other quite dramatically.

    29. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:48

        He was doing meth in the UK, I read as well, th- and then he got arrested for-

    30. NKNicola Kilner1:07:51

        Yeah, and, and again, my, my limited understanding of drugs, but I think crystal meth is about as, as bad as it gets, I think, in, in, in many ways. Um, so then in, in October, he got removed, and again, I remember feeling like maybe, maybe this will show him, like be the push he needs to, to get help, but it wasn't. Things just kept spiraling. And again, what's so difficult in these situations is, at this point, I think he's pushed pretty much everyone away who really loved him, and he's now... Because you have to remember, he also had funds. He had, you know, resources, which meant, you know, at this point, he'd, was now flying private jets everywhere, and he was kind of surrounded by people that I had never met before and who I don't think were particularly good people for him to have around. But I mean, you don't have control over another human being, and I think that's the thing that I really struggled with was how much everyone wanted to help him and loved him. But it w- at some point, you know, so by October, I mean, we've had 10 months of so much hurt, so much trying to help him, so much, you know, you have moments when you think you're, you're getting through and maybe like this is gonna like be a change, and then things just fall down again.

13. 1:09:12 – 1:17:27

    He shut down the company

    1. NKNicola Kilner1:09:12

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:12

       So he then, when you've got sort of 700 employees, takes to Instagram and announces that he's shutting down the company.

    3. NKNicola Kilner1:09:20

       Mm.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:21

       And d- did he mean that?

    5. NKNicola Kilner1:09:23

       Yeah, I think he did. Again, I don't know if he meant it or if he was just wanting to be removed, and almost, you know, if that was the reason he was kind of doing some of these behaviors. There had been, things had been very extreme, and I sometimes don't know if he would've thought like, "You know, what else do I need to do for someone to just take me out of this?" So then obviously, at that point, you know, the, the board, the shareholders, there's, there's no choice but to now remove Brandon from, from the company.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:59

       Did they contact you after that?

    7. NKNicola Kilner1:10:02

       So l- yeah, they, they, they might-

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:03

       Privately, I mean, before the, the lawsuit and all that stuff started-

    9. NKNicola Kilner1:10:06

       Yeah.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:06

        ... they'd said, "Listen, Nicola, we're gonna have to do something here."

    11. NKNicola Kilner1:10:08

        Yeah, and, and I mean, throughout this process, there were many conversations because again, you know, every shareholder loved Brandon and cared for him and like, everyone's a good person, and it's like everyone wants to help someone that they've seen this brilliance in and kind of seen this quick, quick downfall. And I think the viewpoint was always how do we protect Deciem so that Brandon can get better and come back? So it was always just a temporary order, um, and obviously they rang me because it would, it would name me as becoming sole CEO in kind of the interim period. And again, you know, I had these thoughts that maybe, maybe this is what is needed for him to actually get the help, because sometimes they say, you know, you have to lose everything to hit rock bottom to then be accepting that you need help, but that, that didn't happen. And I think when, when it, when the court order happened in October-

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:11:05

        Which is what, three days after he announces he's shutting down the company, or was it more?

    13. NKNicola Kilner1:11:09

        I- it was a very quick period. I can't remember exactly-

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:11:12

        Right.

    15. NKNicola Kilner1:11:12

        ... but yeah, I think it was within days. But then things just seemed to keep spiraling, and obviously, you know, at that point in October, I was, uh, seven months pregnant, um, so I remember I had like one last travel before I was at the kind of no, no flying stage, so I went to Toronto, and actually, the first thing I did was bring back a lot of the incredible team members that had gone during the period of 2018.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:11:38

        So I need to pause there because that's pretty astounding. You're seven months pregnant, the founder has been ousted by a huge, like multinational billion-dollar con- conglomerate, and you're thrust in as CEO of the company of 700 people who have just gone through chaos. What do you do day one? (laughs)

    17. NKNicola Kilner1:12:01

        (laughs) Um, so, so assemble the team. So you know, the, the key people who were incredibly close to Brandon, who had also been fired and kind of pushed out in, in all of this chaos, they needed to come back to the company because they were also co-founders. They were also people who had been there from the beginning, understood the values, and we desperately needed. I remember going for dinner with Steven and saying like, "I need you to come back." So Steven was our CFO at the time, and then we came back as the COO, and again, like we just needed to get organization because, I mean, in this period of 2018, you have to remember the- our, our demand for the products went through the roof because, I mean, there was a lot of noise around what was happening. And-

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:48

        Did it help sales?

    19. NKNicola Kilner1:12:49

        ... massively, which is frustrating, but, you know. Because we had such good products that was also in the conversation, but it was like, "Have you seen what's happening? Have you seen this Instagram? Have you seen this founder?" Like-

    20. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:03

        Because I'd seen it.

    21. NKNicola Kilner1:13:03

        ... it's e-

    22. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:03

        You know, I'll be honest with you, the only time I'd heard ... 'Cause I'm, I'm not a buyer of the, the products, The Ordinary products. The only time I'd heard about the brand was I heard a story when I was in New York, I think in 2017, 2018, when I was living in New York, about this founder that had, like, hijacked the Instagram and was posting, like, a dead sheep. He posted, like, a picture of a dead sheep or something.

    23. NKNicola Kilner1:13:23

        Yeah.

    24. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:23

        And I remember clicking on ... This is so funny, actually. I clicked onto the Instagram to, like, see what was going on. It's kind of like being nosy or whatever. And I was like, "That branding's cool." (laughs)

    25. NKNicola Kilner1:13:34

        (laughs)

    26. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:34

        So for, for the last five years I've known it from that first moment-

    27. NKNicola Kilner1:13:37

        Yeah.

    28. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:37

        ... but I remember thinking, "That branding is really on the money." (laughs)

    29. NKNicola Kilner1:13:39

        Well, in, in 2018, I mean, the brand was only one ... a year old.

    30. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:43

        C- c- crazy.
14. 1:17:27 – 1:27:21

    A journalist told us the horrific news

    1. NKNicola Kilner1:17:27

       getting a message. So s- ... Dion had ... The press had got in touch with us to say, "Is it true Brandon's died?" We had heard nothing at this point. And I remember thinking, "Surely not." Like, we wouldn't be hearing from a reporter asking us the question. So I said to John, "Look, I'll, I'll ask Steven to see if he can hear anything." So Steven went to the police station, who confirmed they'd found his body, and, and he'd, he'd passed away. I remember Steven ringing me, and I was breastfeeding my daughter at the time, and just feeling this shock because you just never think that's actually the ending that's going to come. Like, I think ... I always did just think at some point he would get better. And actually not within a year someone could go from, like, being the person you know and you love and who is normal and is them for them, to a year later that this, this ... Such a fast downward spiral has happened that that's kind of had that ending. And then you also ... I then realized that I don't think his partner knew. I don't think any, you know, like, any of our Deciem family, like, no one knew, other than that reporter. But if the press know, that means quite quickly everyone's going to know.... it's then having to go through this process of ringing his partner, ringing, like, the people that I knew were incredibly close personally to him, ringing Estee Lauder companies, like, telling the people that I had to know, and then quite quickly having the email drafted. Because also, you know, this press inquiry has gone to our general media at DECIEM inbox, which means the team are already knowing that this inquiry is out there. So, suddenly it's like, "Okay, gosh," like, "I need everyone to hear this in, in the right order." So, trying to, like, make those phone calls, (smacks lips) send those messages.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:28

       Did you process it yourself?

    3. NKNicola Kilner1:19:30

       No. I think I went into... I remember just the shock of... I really didn't think it was gonna end in that way, or that soon. And then I think it was just, "Okay, let's, like, go through the motions." Like, "Who do we need to tell?" Like, "How do we handle this from here?" And then, I remember, like, them being like, "We need to get Mila a passport," because we flew to Toronto five, like, five days later. Um, and it, yeah, just going to, like, how do we... Because again, it's not just a, a company that's left a founder, it's a family, it's a friend, it's someone who's so close to all of us. And it's also hard because it's just such a, just a tragic story and a tragic ending. And, you know, and I think back to sometimes, like, our family bond, and especially the bond that we still have now. It's the only people who were there at the beginning. But, I mean, we lived through this. Like, we had this year of all messaging each other around, "This has just happened. What do you think we should do? How do we handle this situation?" Like, we lived that pain together, which I think is, is probably why there is a bond that I think is still incredibly strong that wouldn't normally exist, because it- it does strengthen when you go through those tough times together.

Episode duration: 1:53:47