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The Diary of a CEOThe Diary of a CEO

Vanessa Van Edwards: Why withholding liking costs friends

How small cues like phone-checking, posture, and profile photos warp warmth; a cat or cowboy hat can pull the right people toward your dating photo.

Vanessa Van EdwardsguestSteven BartletthostGuest date participant (male, software engineer)guest
Apr 10, 20252h 9mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 3:02

    Intro

    1. VE

      (gasps) A lot of people do this on dates, and it drives me crazy. Look, watch this.

    2. SB

      Vanessa, yesterday, you and my team did some matchmaking.

    3. VE

      Yes. Okay. So we had the very first date, and I pre-coached the gentlemen, and I was coaching the girls via an earpiece, and I was shocked by these dates. Please don't do that. This is why we're having a baby crisis. I got angry after this date.

    4. SB

      Why?

    5. VE

      I was like, "Girl, we handed this guy to you on a silver platter." She was physically attracted to him, and I asked her, "Would you like to go out with him again?" And she said to me... (smacks lips)

    6. SB

      Really?

    7. VE

      Yeah, yeah. And now we are missing opportunities for connection, the thing that's going to make us healthy, happy, and live a long time.

    8. NA

      Vanessa Van Edwards has helped over 400,000 students crack the code on human behavior.

    9. Decoding universal body language and sharing science-backed secrets for better dates. Smoother conversations.

    10. And bigger career wins.

    11. SB

      Vanessa Van Edwards, welcome back. The first place I wanna start is, can we change who we are?

    12. VE

      They've actually researched this, and every person on planet Earth has these five personality traits, and they fall in a spectrum, high, medium, or low. And they're somewhere between 42 to 57% heritable. For example, neuroticism, which is how you worry. And high neurotics, like me, produce less serotonin more slowly. Serotonin makes us feel calm. And so, like, I am having far more negative experiences than the same person in the room, and that's genetic. But there is 30 to 40% potential for change. You want a better relationship? You want a raise? You want a promotion? You want more friends? And the good news is, anyone can learn these cues and techniques, such as decoding the seven universal micro-expressions we all do unconsciously, how to spot a liar, the number one mistake people make in a first impression, and how to become a master communicator. Can I teach them to you?

    13. SB

      Please.

    14. VE

      Let's start with-

    15. SB

      This has always blown my mind a little bit. 53% of you that listen to this show regularly haven't yet subscribed to the show. So could I ask you for a favor before we start? If you like the show and you like what we do here and you wanna support us, the free, simple way that you can do just that is by hitting the subscribe button. And my commitment to you is, if you do that, then I'll do everything in my power, me and my team, to make sure that this show is better for you every single week. We'll listen to your feedback, we'll find the guests that you want me to speak to, and we'll continue to do what we do. Thank you so much. Vanessa Van Edwards, welcome back.

    16. VE

      Thank you for having me back.

    17. SB

      How you been?

    18. VE

      Oh my gosh. Your folks are so kind. Can I just say, since the last interview, the incredible people have reached out and just been supportive and kind. They ask amazing questions. And so I'm just so grateful. So I've been really good.

    19. SB

      Just in case anybody doesn't know who you are and what you do, you're gonna have to take me back. What is it you do? And who are you?

    20. VE

      I'm a recovering awkward person, and I help other awkward folks learn how to communicate. I have books and courses, and I love helping very, very smart people share their ideas better.

    21. SB

      Communicate online and in person?

    22. VE

      Oh, all of it. All of it.

    23. SB

      'Kay.

    24. VE

      Slack, text, email, online, in person, on the phone. We could talk about vocal power, video power. You are communicating all the time, even if you don't realize it. And I, that's, that's the hidden opportunity.

  2. 3:02 – 3:33

    How Important Is It to Master the Skill of Communication?

    1. VE

    2. SB

      How important is it? Like, how pivotal is it and can it be for someone's life if they master the skill of communication, first impressions, and all of the things that you educate us on so articulately?

    3. VE

      It will get you everything you want. You want a better relationship? You want a soulmate? You want a raise? You want a promotion? You want a business? You want more friends? You want a support system? It will even get you longevity. That's how strong I feel about it. If you have incredible relationships and you're able to communicate your ideas so people like you and they listen, your life changes.

  3. 3:33 – 4:18

    Are We Set in Our Ways? Is Charisma Genetic?

    1. SB

      But is it, is it not genetic? You know, like, are, are we set in our ways?

    2. VE

      Look, there are certain people born out the womb charismatic. Great hand gestures, great eyebrows, right out the womb. There are those very unique people, but most of us learn charisma. Most really, really charismatic leaders, they've learned, "Ah, this nonverbal cue gets people to smile. Oh, with this vocal power, people pay attention and lean in." And they've accidentally or purposefully learned how to hone their charisma. And the good news is, I think anyone can learn it. Anyone. No matter how awkward you are, believe me, I'm proof, you can learn it.

    3. SB

      You're proof?

    4. VE

      I'm a recovering awkward person. I was so awkward. I have, I had a really hard time communicating with people. I was not well-liked. I was, had very few friends. If I can learn it, anyone can

  4. 4:18 – 4:53

    Different Types of Awkwardness in People

    1. VE

      learn it. I promise.

    2. SB

      It's almost impossible to believe that you were an awkward person.

    3. VE

      I promise. I, you know, also, awkwardness dresses up in different ways, right? So I think most people, when they think of awkward, they think of that stereotypical robotic, unreadable, saying weird things. That was not my brand of awkward. My brand of awkward was trying to be impressive when I clearly wasn't, telling funny stories that were not funny, talking too much. Shocker.

    4. SB

      (laughs)

    5. VE

      Right? It was saying the wrong things and overcommunicating. I also had that Labrador energy. You know, like that golden retriever energy, where I'm like... (pants)

    6. SB

      (laughs)

    7. VE

      Do you know what I mean?

    8. SB

      She just stuck her tongue

  5. 4:53 – 6:37

    How to Make Friends – The 3 Core Friendship Values

    1. SB

      out for anybody who was qualified.

    2. VE

      Yeah, I'm like super into people, and that was awkward 'cause people would be like, "Back up. It's okay." And that was awkward because it created... I, I was so overeager, I so wanted people to like me that I feel like, you know, I was leaning into everyone all the time. And that created awkwardness for people because I was trying so hard.

    3. SB

      ... people write into the show or speak to me in the street-

    4. VE

      Mm-hmm.

    5. SB

      ... and it's so surprising that the thing, even if they live in these, you know, densely populated cities, the sort of most pressing issue on their mind is, "I don't know how to make a friend." And it's funny 'cause sometimes they say that to me in a gym, and I'm just like, "There's 300 people surrounding us right now." And not knowing how to walk up and say hello or introduce yourself.

    6. VE

      Yeah, but a lot of us, I think, have casual friends. We have like, you know, f- acquaintances, people, they know what we do, but then we don't know how to level up. Like, I believe that everyone should have core friendship values. Mine are, for me personally, respect, meaning they don't show up late. (laughs)

    7. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    8. VE

      They respect my time. Self-honesty. I actually like honesty, but I prefer self-honesty in a friend. I had friendships that didn't work for a long time because they lied to themselves about things, and I'm not a liar, so I would be like, "But he's terrible to you." And they'd be like, "What? No, he's not."Self-deception doesn't work for me. That is a core friendship value, cannot do it. Do you know what I'm saying?

    9. SB

      Self-honesty is the first thing.

    10. VE

      Self-honesty, specifically. Um, and the last one is depth. So once I started going deep, I realized I need that. I cannot have a surface-level friend. Like, I want to know how is your marriage, but how is it really? Like, I want to go really, really deep and if I sense that there's any kind of hesitation there, we're not gonna be friends. So I think it's important to think about, yes, hobbies, great. Like, you want to do activities with these people. But what are your core friendship values?

  6. 6:37 – 7:34

    How Do You Figure Out Your Core Friendship Values?

    1. VE

    2. SB

      And how do I figure out what my core friendship values are?

    3. VE

      Okay. Think about all the things that drive you crazy about your current friends.

    4. SB

      (laughs)

    5. VE

      Okay?

    6. SB

      Yeah.

    7. VE

      Okay?

    8. SB

      Yeah.

    9. VE

      Think about friendships that didn't work out, that had a lot of potential, but like they j- you just, they fizzled, you never quite had a good time with them. Or friends that you get together with them all the time, but they still, they still wouldn't be a best friend. Why?

    10. SB

      Okay. Yeah.

    11. VE

      Like what, what is blocking, what is missing there? And it could be on either side, right? It's like not all just up to them. So think about what drives you crazy and then, like, what makes you feel healed? What makes you feel good? What makes you feel calm? What makes you feel like yourself?

    12. SB

      Personal responsibility is a big one for me, I think.

    13. VE

      Ooh, give me an example of that.

    14. SB

      Just like how, it's, it's a deep belief that you are in control of your life and you are in control of your outcomes because then it's like almost the antithesis of victimhood.

    15. VE

      Totally.

    16. SB

      And you don't want to be dealing with a friend who's, um, chronically engaged in, like, victimhood, you know? So that was the first one.

    17. VE

      Yeah. You want, you want heroes.

  7. 7:34 – 8:18

    How Many People Has Vanessa Taught These Skills? And What Do They Want?

    1. VE

    2. SB

      And how many people have you taught the skill of better communication and better connections to in the last decade?

    3. VE

      Oh my gosh. Well, at least 400,000 students who I can count but millions more. Millions more.

    4. SB

      400,000 students?

    5. VE

      Yes. And it's, it's actually probably way more than that, but that's just what we can count.

    6. SB

      And what is, like, the essence of what they're trying to get? 'Cause obviously, a skill is a path to something that they want. What is the thing that they want?

    7. VE

      They want to be master communicators.

    8. SB

      Why?

    9. VE

      They want to be able to ask for what they want and get it. If you are a master communicator, no matter what you want, again, if it's a partner or a business deal, you can get it if you can communicate well.

    10. SB

      Can you make me a master communicator?

    11. VE

      For sure.

    12. SB

      Let's do it then.

    13. VE

      Let's do it.

    14. SB

      So, the first

  8. 8:18 – 10:24

    First Impressions

    1. SB

      place I want to start is with first impressions.

    2. VE

      Yeah.

    3. SB

      And how one can make a great first impression c- because first impressions are like, I make them all day every day. When I meet people on the podcast, in business, in, in the street, at the gym. Someone might listen to this show, they come up to me.

    4. VE

      Mm-hmm.

    5. SB

      So I'm constantly trying to think about how to make a better first impression.

    6. VE

      Mm-hmm.

    7. SB

      Because from the work that I've read of yours, they really matter, right?

    8. VE

      They really matter. They really matter.

    9. SB

      How much?

    10. VE

      Our first impressions are actually very accurate. They, they find 76% accurate with our personality traits. In other words, people can accurately guess after a first impression how extroverted you are, how agreeable, how neurotic. Actually, neurotic is the hardest one to guess. We can hide that really well. Openness and conscientiousness. We're pretty good at guessing that. Like, I can guess that based on just the first few seconds of interaction, which means they're lasting. So if you've made a bad first impression, it's hard to recover. I, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, we can work on it. But nailing that first impression will set you up for a lifetime of success with that person. So it's very important that we don't throw them away, and this is the number one mistake people make in a first impression. They do it like this. "Oh, hi, nice to meet you." Looking down at their phone or their iPad or their computer or their notepad or their book. When we are looking down, it looks very much like the universal defeat posture. Universal defeat is when we tuck our chin to our chest, we usually have our, very little space between our sh- shoulders and our ear lobes. We have our arms close to our sides. This, yeah. Don't you feel kind of horrible? You look horrible.

    11. SB

      Oh, thank you. (laughs)

    12. VE

      (laughs) Look. When you check your phone, every time you check your phone, you accidentally look like a loser. And I mean that literally in terms of losing and winning. So in a first impression, you're waiting in the waiting room for a big job interview, you're waiting for your date, or possibly your perfect person, and what are you doing? Checking your phone.

    13. SB

      So I'm, I'm sat there looking like a loser?

    14. VE

      Yeah. That first impression that happens in the first few seconds of seeing you, and this is another mistake introverts make. They think their first impression happens, starts the moment they start talking. No. Your first impression happens the moment someone first sees you. That's when they walk into a room, open the door, walk into a restaurant, or look at your profile

  9. 10:24 – 12:11

    Profile Pictures

    1. VE

      picture. Profile pictures are even more important. They've found that people make a first impression of you within the first 100 milliseconds of looking at your profile picture. That's so fast that you barely even realize you saw a picture. But we are so attuned to look at someone's facial expressions, their body posture, what's visible, our clothing, our ornaments, and what's fascinating about this research is they found that different pictures of the same person can give different first impressions, which means we are in control of our first impressions. If different pictures of the same person, like if you have five different pictures of yourself and you put them up all on different LinkedIn profiles, y- people are gonna make different judgments of you, which means you can control the kind of judgment you want to make by picking the right picture but also having the right body language when someone first sees you.

    2. SB

      Someone did a study on that?

    3. VE

      Yeah. I think Simin Vazir I think did this study. Yeah. Don't quote me, but I, I believe Simin Vazir does a lot of, on digital first impressions, and what's incredible is that small tweaks to your cues can have a massive impact on your impression. So for example, I've played around with this on mine where I'll have my hand in my picture. Like, there's a big difference. If you were to see me like this with my ha- my, my face on my hands, it's called a face platter.

    4. SB

      Okay, so for anyone that can't see you, sh- y- you've got both of your-

    5. VE

      Hands...

    6. SB

      ... hands out and your chin resting in the middle of them.

    7. VE

      Yeah. It's called a face platter, right? Think of like my face on a platter for anyone who's listening. (laughs) This is a very different impression than this. Like same face, face platter, warm, almost feminine, kind of girly versus this. Very professional, very competent. Just that one difference. So all these cues are changing, especially if you're ha- first impressions are happening on dating profile apps, on LinkedIn, in your email, like a little picture in an email or your website is changing the way people treat you and think of you.

    8. SB

      Okay. So let me show you some profile photos.

    9. VE

      I would love to see.

  10. 12:11 – 14:10

    Profile Picture Examples

    1. VE

    2. SB

      And you tell me what they're giving.

    3. VE

      All right.

    4. SB

      Okay. What is this giving?

    5. VE

      Okay. So she's leaning her head to one side with her cheek on her hand. First, immediately, a head tilt. Head- head tilt is a universal sign of engagement and warmth. She's giving me nurturing vibes. Doesn't... Don't you wanna tell her all your problems? Like, I would guess she's a therapist or a life coach. She has a watch on, which is a good ornament for competence, so she's probably a therapist or maybe a psychoanalyst, probably has a degree. She also wears glasses. We like women in glasses and makeup for very competent. That actually ups our competence factor. By the way, this is just the research, not my opinion. And, uh, she has a, a sweater tied around her, uh, top, and that's very conservative. So I would say warm and nurturing, could be a grandmother, likely in a self, uh, help profession.

    6. SB

      Correct. (laughs)

    7. VE

      (laughs)

    8. SB

      That was brilliant.

    9. VE

      So some cues there we can learn from is we wanna balance out the friendliness-

    10. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    11. VE

      ... the warmth, the approachability with the, with the take me seriously. So you take her seriously because of her watch, and her glasses, and her lack of a smile.

    12. SB

      Okay.

    13. VE

      Those are all cues of competence. We like that. We also like those cues of warmth, head tilt, hand on face, and a soft smile. So in that way, it's a perfect bla- balance or blend.

    14. SB

      What about this guy? Profile photo.

    15. VE

      Okay. So we are seeing a gentleman with, uh, no hands. So we see no hand gestures, just his face. He's also tilting his chin down and his forehead is forward. Um, you also see a genuine smile. The best thing about this picture is he's doing an authentic smile because you can see those cheek muscles are activated, uh, his upper, upper zygomaticus. Terrible at saying that. But these bu- muscles are activated, so very likable. Oh, yeah, like that. Good job. Yes. I love the smile. Um, so we love that authentic smile, so he's very warm and approachable. He's also making eye contact with the camera, slight head tilt. I would actually say this is very warm, almost too warm. If he is a doctor, or a professor, or someone who needs to be taken seriously, I don't know if I'd go to him with my problems. It's v- a lot of warmth for that photo. And by the way, I wanna make this as helpful for folks at home. So

  11. 14:10 – 15:28

    Add Cues for a Better First Impression

    1. VE

      think of your impression like a thermostat. You can dial up your trust and your approachability by adding cues. So if you wanna add warmth, or trust, or likability, you can add a head tilt, you can show your hands. Movement is also one. So sometimes you'll see people who are, like, leaning their head over to the side or even in the process of a walk. That's why all those photographers use wind. (blows air)

    2. SB

      Ah, yeah.

    3. VE

      Yeah. It actually adds, like, this weird element of warmth. If you wanna dial up, um, competence, power, if you wanna be taken seriously, especially if you're in a career where you've been challenged, or interrupted, or not taken seriously, or underestimated, you really wanna dial up competence in your profile picture. Like the cover of my books, I am not smiling. And that is because I'm not quite a smiley person, and I want people to take me seriously, so I made a choice to not smile on my covers.

    4. SB

      What about this chap?

    5. VE

      All right. (laughs)

    6. SB

      This is a d- dating app profile photo.

    7. VE

      Look, I love it. Okay, this guy has a cat around his neck. And you know what? I love it. Why? Because if you love cats, you're gonna love this guy. If you hate cats, you're gonna swipe. We want to make people not like us with the ornaments we choose, right? Like, I love when my husband wears a cowboy hat because certain people are gonna love it and some people aren't gonna like it. He's gonna find his people. We're in Austin, Texas, so it would be weird if he, like, wore it in London or something like that.

    8. SB

      Dee, what

  12. 15:28 – 16:21

    How Sunglasses Block Connection

    1. SB

      do you think?

    2. VE

      Okay. So I do not like sunglasses in photos at all. And the reason for this is because research shows that we can produce oxytocin, which is the chemical connection, even through a lens. When you can't see someone's eyes, it puts a little barrier in our head of like, "I don't know. I don't know about this person." That's chemically your body being like, "I cannot see her eyes." So I'm a hard no on sunglasses. This is like she's very distant from me. Even though she has a beautiful smile, I can't see the upper cheek muscles-

    3. SB

      Hmm.

    4. VE

      ... and I can't see her eyes.

    5. SB

      Is... Does that apply to real life too, the sunglasses point? Like, does it disconnect us from people?

    6. VE

      You know, I haven't seen research on that. I've only seen research on sunglasses in photos. So I'm gonna say in person, I think it's okay. But I will say, like, have you ever been with someone and they, like, take off their glasses to see you better? Does that ever happen to you?

    7. SB

      Yes.

    8. VE

      It feels good.

    9. SB

      Yeah, like they care.

    10. VE

      S- if you wanna show someone, "I'm gonna really listen to you," take off

  13. 16:21 – 16:54

    More Good Cues for First Impressions

    1. VE

      your glasses or roll up your sleeves. So there's also... We know this is a cue.

    2. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    3. VE

      It's like, "Let's get into it." I often see, like, leaders when they're getting into the get into it part of their speech, they roll up their sleeves. Another one that I like is this one, rubbing your hands together.

    4. SB

      Okay.

    5. VE

      So this is a universal get ready cue. If you are about to share something really, really good to your team, you wanna go like this. "Guys, (laughs) I got something good today." (laughs) You would like it. You would like it.

    6. SB

      No, I just re-

    7. VE

      If you were in a team meeting-

    8. SB

      Yeah. Okay.

    9. VE

      Right?

    10. SB

      (laughs)

    11. VE

      You gotta... It's, it's a universal cue of warming up.

    12. SB

      So going back

  14. 16:54 – 18:30

    How Do I Make a Really Bad First Impression?

    1. SB

      then to first impressions, how do I make a really bad first impression?

    2. VE

      A really bad first impression?

    3. SB

      Yeah. So we'll do the bad first, then we'll do the good.

    4. VE

      Okay.

    5. SB

      You said one of the f- the worst things one can do is to walk up on their phone, on a device, et cetera.

    6. VE

      Yes. Okay, so bad is taking up as little space as possible.

    7. SB

      Yeah.

    8. VE

      Right? No space between our arms and our torso. No space between our shoulders and our ear lobes. Um, the second thing is hidden hands. So hands in pockets, hand on the table, hands not in shot. We like to see hands, especially right away. It makes us feel intention, right? We, like, know what's gonna happen. So I'm like, "Hi. Good to see you." I put my hands... A lot of my hands are in my profile pictures. That's, that's a bad one is n- hidden hands. And the last one is avoidant gaze. We really do like to make eye contact within the first few seconds of meeting someone. It makes us feel like someone's not avoiding that oxytocin. It gives us a chemical burst of trust. They even, you know, have people do nose sprays full of oxytocin and it immediately makes them share more, open more, connect more. Yeah. So we want direct eye contact, visible hands, and a broad body.

    9. SB

      What about when it's-

    10. VE

      I call it the triple threat, by the way.

    11. SB

      The triple threat.

    12. VE

      That's the triple threat.

    13. SB

      What about when sat at a table like this? 'Cause I s- I sit here for hundreds and hundreds of hours listening to people.

    14. VE

      Yeah.

    15. SB

      And I am... I've never said this before, but I'm always really quite conscious about my body language because I don't wanna signal the wrong thing. But because I'm thinking about so many things at once, I'm like...... doing research while someone's talking, I'm reading my notes, I'm writing sometimes, I'm jotting something down, and I'm thinking about the next thing, I'm thinking about the edit. I've, there's a lot going on in my head. Um, I never want them to misconstrue it as, like, a reflection on them.

    16. VE

      Mm-hmm.

    17. SB

      So what would you rec- how would you recommend that I conduct myself, whether it's as a podcast

  15. 18:30 – 21:27

    What We Need to Signal to Express Warmth

    1. SB

      or in a meeting when you're with a client or whatever, to signal that I'm warm and competent and all the good stuff?

    2. VE

      Okay. So first easiest one is you're always angled towards me. I'm so grateful-

    3. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    4. VE

      ... that you don't have us angled at a V. So many podcasts I do are like that, and it is very hard to connect with someone when they're like that. So you're already laying the groundwork of s- of, of being aligned. In your office right now, if you work in an office, move your chairs so they're not at an angle towards you, that they're right at you.

    5. SB

      Hmm.

    6. VE

      That's already gonna set you up for success, because I know we're on the same page, even if you're looking at something else. Then you wanna think about 60% eye contact. It's very specific. In Western cultures, they find that the ideal, the sweet spot for oxytocin is 60, 70, 60 to 70%. Some East Asian cultures, it's less eye contact, so that's okay. But if you can hit that 60%, that's not 100%, especially when I'm making an important point. Like, you'll often be doing notes, and you'll look up at me when I'm making an important point. That's all I need to know, "I got this. Keep going." And then really powerful people make eye contact at the end of their point. So you could be talking like this, explaining this, remembering something, but let me tell you, at the very end of my point, that's when it matters.

    7. SB

      Interesting.

    8. VE

      And I think you actually do that pretty naturally. I don't know if you realize you're doing it, but if you're in a meeting or pres- presenting or you're an interviewer, that's actually what matters more is that at the end of your sentence, you're sealing it with that eye contact.

    9. SB

      Yeah, 'cause I look aw- so I'm doing it now. I look away because I, I'm struggling with my ideas, trying to articulate them, and then once I've got it, I come back to make the point like that.

    10. VE

      Yes, and that actually is good. It shows me that you're processing. We know as humans that I cannot do complex math problems while making eye contact.

    11. SB

      Yeah.

    12. VE

      We can't do it. And so actually, it makes you look very thoughtful and pensive for the 40% you're not looking at me when you're gathering.

    13. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    14. VE

      That actually, leaders do that because they're showing, "I'm authentically coming up with the answer." It would be very weird if you were delivering 100% with 100% eye contact, because I would feel like it was scripted.

    15. SB

      Yeah.

    16. VE

      That's one of the reasons why I think, um, presenters make this problem, and I, whenever I watch, like, Shark Tank or Dragon's Den, a big mistake they make is they're so rehearsed, they don't break eye contact, and it gives you sort of a robotic feeling.

    17. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    18. VE

      So if you're practicing a presentation, you actually want to have a little bit of, like, ad lib in there. You wanna be processing a- around 'cause it shows you're authentically grabbing the information, and that shows competence. Right? Highly competent people, they don't need a script-

    19. SB

      Hmm.

    20. VE

      ... because they know their stuff so well, they can just grab it out for you, they can think on the spot. Low competent people are memorized.

    21. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    22. VE

      That is why, like, the TED Talks that we like the best-

    23. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    24. VE

      ... the pitchers we like the best, they're basically having a really smart conversation with you, and you like it.

    25. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    26. VE

      So I like that you're gathering away from me, that you're thinking of a question. The worst interviews I have are, is where someone is just beating me with questions and not thinking about it, you know?

    27. SB

      Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    28. VE

      Okay, so gestures, eye contact, um, it's okay to make only 60% eye contact. That's the triple threat. The other thing in a first impression that I really like

  16. 21:27 – 23:19

    Breaking the Script

    1. VE

      is breaking the script, right? I think in a first impression, it's okay to be like, "Hey, good morning." But when we do the, "How are you?" "Good, how are you?" "Good, how are you?" "Good, how are you?" And you get in, like, that horrible, like, loop, I'm gonna challenge everyone to try to break the script with, "How are you?" So when someone asks, "How are you?" Don't say, "Good." Don't say, "Busy but good." Try to answer with, like, a little bit of humor-

    2. SB

      Okay.

    3. VE

      ... if you can. Now, I'm not funny, so we should take this advice with a grain of salt. (laughs)

    4. SB

      You are funny.

    5. VE

      But I'm not that funny. But there's a couple things you can do. So one is you could answer with a number. So like-

    6. SB

      S-

    7. VE

      You laughed. I didn't even do it yet, and you already laughed.

    8. SB

      (laughs)

    9. VE

      Right?

    10. SB

      Seven.

    11. VE

      Se- most people say seven. I was gonna say seven.

    12. SB

      Oh, really?

    13. VE

      Right? So if you're like, if someone's like, "How are you?" And you're like, "Mm, 7 on a 10 scale."

    14. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    15. VE

      Right? Like, it just, it breaks the script a little bit. I also love when you say, um, what you're wrestling with. So I might be like, "Just been fighting my inbox all day, but a good 10 out of 10." Like, it, sometimes it's good to give, like, a little bit of context of, like, what you've been dealing with for the day, or if you know that you look a mess, you can be like, "Better on the inside than the outside."

    16. SB

      Better on the inside than the outside, okay.

    17. VE

      Right? Like, something that just gets people thinking a little bit. It kind of breaks the script, and it makes for a very nice first impression.

    18. SB

      So first impressions, make sure the conversation doesn't hit a dead end, essentially.

    19. VE

      An- and, and break the script.

    20. SB

      Yeah, break the script.

    21. VE

      Break the script. So like, I'd rather you take a little bit of a risk and have some conversational courage to not do the script, right? Because then you're gonna make a way better first impression.

    22. SB

      Yeah.

    23. VE

      And that also means not asking, "How are you?" But instead being like, "What's good?" It's like, when I start a conversation, like, anytime, I try never to ask, "How are you?" I try to say, "What's good? Anything good today?" It's a very subtle, subtle change on that, and it, it makes people think for a second in a good way.

    24. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    25. VE

      They're like, "Oh, yeah, what's good?" And it totally changes the nature of the conversation.

  17. 23:19 – 25:33

    Master Communicators and the "Chemical Cocktail"

    1. VE

    2. SB

      I've, I do this here sometimes. So when a guest comes in, the question that I always ask pretty much everyone that sits down is like, "What's front of mind for you at the moment?"

    3. VE

      Hmm.

    4. SB

      Is that a good one?

    5. VE

      I like that one a lot. I would prefer-

    6. SB

      That's cool, okay, fine.

    7. VE

      ... "What have you been looking forward to? Are you looking forward to anything in your life?"

    8. SB

      Becau- is that because it's positive?

    9. VE

      Yeah, it's juicing excitement. So like, our, I think our job, if you wanna really be a master communicator, is you are gifting good chemicals. You know that phrase, like, "Leave people better than you found them"?

    10. SB

      Yeah.

    11. VE

      I take that quite literally. I think master communicators are literally gifting beautiful chemicals to the other person. They're making people feel super full of dopamine. Dopamine is, like, very simplified, excitement, motivation, energy. They're gifting testosterone. You feel capable. You feel smart. Wow, you're good at what you do, right? And you leave feeling like, (exhales) like, "I'm so good." This is for both men and women. You're gifting serotonin, calm, belonging, "You got this."

    12. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    13. VE

      "You can be yourself with me. I give you permission to be yourself. I love you for who you are." Like, I think one of the reasons why people often verbal vomit on me, like they tell me everything about their lives-I think it's because I'm gr- I'm, like, trying to give them serotonin. I want them to feel like they can be absolutely themselves and I accept them for e- exactly who they are. So serotonin, dopamine, and testosterone, if we can give those out, I call it, like, the chemical cocktail. Like, that's the cocktail I want to give to everyone in my conversation, and that's what master communicators are doing.

    14. SB

      And how would I give you all those things?

    15. VE

      Okay. So you break the script by just waking me up, right? Like, "This is gonna be different." Then you ask, "What have you been looking forward to?" Like, if you ask me what's been front of mind, I'm gonna probably give you a negative answer, to be quite honest with you. Have you... Do you usually get negative answers to that question? (laughs)

    16. SB

      Negative or neutral.

    17. VE

      Mm-hmm.

    18. SB

      Or s- it's typically something work-related. So they'll say, "My book tour, I'm trying to get this published," or blah, blah, blah. Yeah.

    19. VE

      And you're bored, aren't you?

    20. SB

      Uh, it's somewhat interesting to me 'cause I write it down and then I'll talk to them about it. But, I mean, if it was a social conversation, it wouldn't be interesting.

    21. VE

      Yeah. And I would argue, like, you would be more engaged if you got an exciting answer-

    22. SB

      Yeah.

    23. VE

      ... even in this setting.

    24. SB

      Yeah.

    25. VE

      So you're bored, they're bored. So one, if you're, like, "Looking forward to anything? Got any fun plans coming up?" Those are all, like, gifting little bits of dopamine. Then capitalizing on any moment that, I call it a me too moment. I have this

  18. 25:33 – 26:12

    Thread Theory

    1. VE

      theory, it's called thread theory (laughs) , and it's this idea that in conversation, we are throwing threads at each other. So, like, if we have a shared thing, I've thrown a thread, you d- get it and you pull it, and it's like you're trying to get even more out of me. The more threads that there are between you and me, the more we like each other and the closer we get. Me too moments create serotonin. When I say, "I like X," and you're like, "What? I like X too," we're like...

    2. SB

      Mm.

    3. VE

      Like, chemically. And that makes me feel serotonin. It makes me feel calm, belonging, I can be myself. So anytime in a conversation that someone says anything that you agree with or you feel like, "I have that too," you wanna capitalize it and be like, "Thread! Me too."

    4. SB

      How

  19. 26:12 – 26:33

    How to Stop Feeling Like You're Making the Conversation About Yourself

    1. SB

      do you stop it feeling like you're making it about yourself, though? Because if you said to me... You've got a Cybertruck outside. If, if, if you walked in and said, "Oh, I've got a... Just bought a Cybertruck," and I go, "I've just bought a Cybertruck."

    2. VE

      Okay. So there's a big difference between how you said it and how I said it. Okay, so I say, "I just got a Cybertruck." "Oh, yeah? Join the club."

    3. SB

      That's what you want me to say?

    4. VE

      Yeah.

  20. 26:33 – 26:52

    British vs. American Expression Styles

    1. VE

    2. SB

      I wouldn't say it like that though.

    3. VE

      (laughs)

    4. SB

      There is a difference here 'cause I'm British, and British people are very like, we're very like-

    5. VE

      I know.

    6. SB

      You know what I mean?

    7. VE

      You're so demure.

    8. SB

      Is that what it is?

    9. VE

      Demure.

    10. SB

      We're just very, "Oh, yeah? Join the club." (laughs) Could you imagine?

    11. VE

      I would have liked it.

    12. SB

      You would freak out. No, you're saying that.

    13. VE

      (laughs)

    14. SB

      You would like it 'cause it's so weird, not because it's-

    15. VE

      I like, I like weird people.

    16. SB

      Is there anything else

  21. 26:52 – 28:11

    Second Impressions

    1. SB

      in the first impressions bucket before we move on to second impressions? And what I mean by that is really, like, how do I then cement and invest in that relationship so I can keep it?

    2. VE

      Mm-hmm. Okay. So if you've made a good first impression, you are set up for success. It's great. If you're making a second impression because you weren't sure how the last one went, right, or you wanna kind of build on it further, your best bet is to show them how much they were on your mind. Everyone's number one worry in this world is, "Did I leave an impression? Am I memorable?" That's what we wanna know. So the very first thing you wanna assure them is, "Ugh! I loved our last meeting. I've been looking so forward to this lunch."

    3. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    4. VE

      Right? So can you assure them that you're so happy to see them, talk to them, hear from them? Same thing on the phone. "Oh my gosh, I'm so glad you called." Like, that warmth of, "You were right to call. You were right to text. You were right to show up." Right? Like, if someone texts me, I, and of course, like, not if I'm texting someone all day long, but if someone texts me and I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I'm so glad you texted," I will literally say that. "I was just thinking of you." Right? Like, "Oh, I'm so glad you reached out. I always love our conversations." Like, that immediate, "You're good here"-

    5. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    6. VE

      ... is serotonin. That, that's that belonging feeling of like, you're already safe. You're letting someone be themselves right off the bat.

    7. SB

      What about

  22. 28:11 – 29:11

    Online First Impressions

    1. SB

      online first impressions? Is there anything that I need to think about if I'm on... 'Cause so much of our lives runs on Zoom or Google Hangouts now, so.

    2. VE

      Yes. Okay. So first, can we talk about just, um, like, dating apps, first of all?

    3. SB

      Yeah. Sure.

    4. VE

      Okay. So they've actually done research on this. You are better off opening with a unique word or phrase than just "Hi," "Hello," "How are ya?" So, like, "Howdy." If you're in Texas, even if you're not in Texas, "Howdy," "Aloha," (laughs) "What's good?" Anything that's not that hi or hello is a little bit different. It's gonna make you stand out. So if you can-

    5. SB

      Hey?

    6. VE

      Nope. (laughs)

    7. SB

      (laughs)

    8. VE

      You're defeating the spirit of the study here, okay? (laughs)

    9. SB

      Okay. So-

    10. VE

      Like, not a "Hey," not a "Hi," not a "What's up?" not a "How are ya?"

    11. SB

      Okay.

    12. VE

      But, like, can you have, like a, a, like, like a signature phrase or like a-

    13. SB

      Bingo.

    14. VE

      E- I would take it.

    15. SB

      You'd take it? (laughs)

    16. VE

      (laughs) Bingo! I'm in your inbox. (laughs)

    17. SB

      (laughs)

    18. VE

      They, they studied this and they found that we're... there's so much noise, there's so much noise that if you can be the red apple... So this is

  23. 29:11 – 30:17

    Be the Red Apple

    1. VE

      a story from when I was... I used to be a camp counselor when I was younger. That's how I made money. And I noticed this phenomenon during break where I would bring always a basket of fruit for break, and usually, it was all red apples or all green apples. And I noticed if I had a basket of green apples and one red apple, every single camper had to have that red apple. But I would ask them, "Do you like the red apple d- better?" And they'd be like, "No, I just want that one 'cause it's the only one." And I've never forgotten that in that I think that really special people w- master communicators are the red apple. They're not oranges. They're still fitting in with everyone, but they're just, like, a little bit different. And that's, I think, how it should be both in business and also in romance is, can you be a red apple? Where you're still the same, you're not, like, wacko crazy, but you're, like, a little different than everyone else. So, like, a "Bingo" (laughs) or a "Howdy" or an "Aloha" or a "Shalom" or whatever it is, I think that it makes you stand out just enough where you have that kind of pique effect. The pique effect is like you piqued someone's curiosity a little bit-

    2. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    3. VE

      ... and that that really works. That's why marketing campaigns that are a little different, they always work better.

    4. SB

      And

  24. 30:17 – 32:08

    How to Make an Impression on Zoom

    1. SB

      what about then on Zoom and other sort of business professional environments?

    2. VE

      Okay. So in Zoom, in professional environments, please turn your camera on.

    3. SB

      Yeah.

    4. VE

      Please turn your camera on. This sounds obvious, but more and more people are turning their camera off, especially if you have back-to-back meetings. But if you can have your camera on just for the first few seconds, it is a game changer for people's perception of you. So, one is make sure that you are not accidentally negative. Here's how this happens. "Can you see me? Can you hear me? Oh. Oh, hi." (laughs) A lot of Zoom impressions happen where someone is caught off guard or they're in the middle of like, "Can you see me? Can you hear me?" And they're fixing themselves, and then they make a first impression. No, your first impression already happened. It happened the moment your camera turned on. Remember, your first impression on video happens the moment someone first sees you, not when you start talking.

    5. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    6. VE

      So, your first impression is usually, "Hey, morning."

    7. SB

      So, you raised your hand then?

    8. VE

      I always, I always give a wave or a hi. I make sure my camera is at least three feet away from my nose. Like, I literally have measuring tape to make sure I'm not too close. I make sure that my body is angled towards the camera. And then usually, I have a question ready, and here's why. In person, it's so much easier to make conversation, especially ab- around context or like, "Oh, you know, w- was it easy getting here? I loved your Cybertruck," very hard on Zoom. And so what happens is, you get on and you go, "Hi. Hi. Weather good where you are?" It's like, ooh, it's so awkward. Be ready. Be ready with an anecdote or a question. I like an anecdote. So, if you've done anything good, interesting, seen anything good or interesting, I want you to be ready to share it. It sounds like this. "Hey, morning. Oh my gosh, I just discovered the best breakfast taco in Austin. Best breakfast taco in Austin. Ah, have you ever had a breakfast taco?" Whatever, but like,

  25. 32:08 – 35:07

    The Story Toolbox

    1. VE

      I was ready to go with that anecdote. I think that that's how we should pre-start all of our video calls, is like some small anecdote or story, and that also helps in conversation. Like, I believe everyone should have a story toolbox. So, in conversation, there are certain topics that will always come up: weather, traffic, and where you're from. So, here's my challenge, this is what master communicators do. Whenever those three topics come up, I want you to have one story about each of them, it could be a trivia, it could be a story, it could be a fact, that you're ready to go to shift the conversation away from boring weather to something really interesting. When someone asks, "Where are you from?" You should say, "Oh, I'm from Los Angeles." Interesting fact, interesting story, that little interesting story, like someone the other day said to me, "Oh, I am from..." This place in En- uh, it was, uh, maybe Liverpool?

    2. SB

      Liverpool.

    3. VE

      And he said, "Oh, it's where Banksy's from." And I was like, "Oh," and we had a whole conversation about Banksy. And I was like, "That was it." He said where he was from, but instead of being, "Liverpool," and I'd be like, "Cool, never been there," he was like, "Liverpool, it's supposedly where Banksy's from." I was like, "Really? But don't we, do we even know who Banksy is?" And he's like, "Well, we don't know, but he could've been at my high school." We had a whole fun conversation about Banksy. And I asked him afterwards, I was like, "Do you always share that comment?" He's like, "Yeah, because it creates the most interesting conversation." So, when you say where you're from, have an interesting fact or an interesting story. Um, I read a book about traffic, literally to have interesting stories about traffic. Like, for example, in Los Angeles, everyone says the 101, the 5, the 10, that's the only place in the world where we say that. So, sometimes I'll even, like someone will be like, "Oh, traffic," and I'll be like, "Oh, so are you a the person? Do you say the..." Then we get in a whole conversation about... So, like, I have little things-

    4. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    5. VE

      ... that create a little bit of juice, and I'm always rotating them out. So, in your phone, create a note called Story Toolbox, and have the topics that typically come up in your conversation and start saving little stories for them.

    6. SB

      It is the same stuff. It's like 80, 90% of the time-

    7. VE

      Same.

    8. SB

      ... it's the same stuff, it's the same questions: How are you? Where are you? How's the weather? Traffic?

    9. VE

      I, I'm constantly adding to that story toolbox and I'm rotating out my facts and trivia 'cause I get bored.

    10. SB

      What if you, like, stumble across the same person twice and you don't realize you've hit them with the same story? 'Cause if you, if we do Zoom-

    11. VE

      But I don't talk to the same people again. (laughs) No, I'm just joking.

    12. SB

      (laughs) If we did a couple of Zoom calls and you kept coming on going, "Are you a the person," or ... I, I'd go, "Wait a minute," like-

    13. VE

      No, if we were doing regular Zoom calls, you would know that I'm probably gonna ask you what's good, and you'd probably be pre-thinking about what's good in your life.

    14. SB

      Hmm.

    15. VE

      Like, I have a friend who always asks, "What are you learning?" And whenever I go hang out with him, I make sure I'm learning something. Like, it actually preps me in a good way. So, you would know me for certain questions, and that would, I think, my, my experience is when you're known for asking better questions, people actually come into the conversation more excited with better expectations to interact with you. So like, be known for it, like find, be known for the traffic trivia. Or like, worse comes to worst, someone says, "Oh yeah, the, the thing, we talked about that last time." And I'd be like, "Oh my gosh, yes. And then, r- I forgot you're from Ohio. Great, I remember you."

  26. 35:07 – 36:29

    How Important Is Background on Zoom?

    1. VE

    2. SB

      How important is the background?

    3. VE

      On your Zoom videos?

    4. SB

      Yeah.

    5. VE

      Pretty important. I also, um, have a thing against, like blurred out, fake backgrounds. I don't like when people use a fake background. I think there was actually some Harvard Business Research on this, but it was during, uh, COVID, so it kind of changes, you know, the, the research. But w- as a human, we get very distracted by fake backgrounds. So, please think twice about blurring out your background or putting a, a fake background around you, like, you know, one of those backdrops. It, the, the, the eye, it's like a green screen, you know when you see on a green screen, your eye is like, "Something is not right." People will perceive you as more inauthentic. I would much rather you have conversation cues behind you, right? Like, you have the most wonderful bookshelf of cues in Captivate up there, right? Like, my books, which I love. Um, and you rotate those books out. So, as I'm talking, if I wanted to make conversation with you, I could be like, "Oh my gosh, yes, Peter Attia's book, Outlive is so good. Did you like it? Do you, w- what was your biggest takeaway from that?"

    6. SB

      Hmm.

    7. VE

      Where like, it gives me gifts of conversation. I also noticed, like one time I was looking at Kevin Hart, he was on a Zoom call, and his background was all of his favorite comedians behind him, and it was like a great conversation starter. And he even had, um, uh, one of the comedians behind him was like holding up his hand like this, like literally in a permanent hello. And I was like, "Oh my gosh," like Kevin Hart doesn't even realize he's doing the best non-verbal cue there is, which is palms. Like, we love a palm.

    8. SB

      And what about looking

  27. 36:29 – 37:16

    Where to Look on Zoom Calls

    1. SB

      at the camera versus looking at the face of the person?

    2. VE

      So, I try to make them as close as possible.

    3. SB

      Okay.

    4. VE

      So, like, just physically speaking, if you can try to make your camera and your, and the person as close as possible, it's going to help you be more authentic, right? So like, my, my screen is not over here. I see some people will have the mistake of they're, they're like, you know, they're off to the side as a, and then like kind of looking over their shoulder at the camera. Whew. Please don't do that. So I have mine even like up, propped up so like your face would be very close to the top of the camera. If you can get 50% eye contact with them and 50% eye contact with the camera, I'd be very happy. Research does show that we can get oxytocin through a screen.

    5. SB

      Really?

    6. VE

      Yeah, yeah. Even though it's not real, our brain is still sort of, "Oh, yeah. They're, they're looking at me. They're talking to me. They're not hiding anything."

    7. SB

      Hmm.

    8. VE

      So 50/50 if you can do it.

    9. SB

      Now, we were talking

  28. 37:16 – 39:45

    Date Experiments

    1. SB

      a second ago about first impressions, um, then second impressions, but also dating, profile photos. Yesterday or the day before, my team here took you to a bar in Austin, Texas, and you met two different couples that were going on a first date, and your job was to coach them both so they had success on that date. And on that first date, one member of the couple had an earpiece in so you could speak to them directly and give them advice on what they should do. We're gonna play some videos for anyone that's, um, able to watch, but you give me the context on what, what happened and what you observed.

    2. VE

      I was shocked by these dates. I was shocked because every single person except one hid their true feelings, and that did not serve them. So we had the very first date, and they were very well-matched, by the way. Like, I liked both of them. What was shocking about this date though is the female, Ashley, I could not tell if she liked him. I literally had no idea, and I was in her ear, so I was whispering in her ear things to say and to ask. I was giving her all the warmth 'cause she looked very cold.

    3. SB

      Hmm.

    4. VE

      You would never have known she was into this guy. You would not have known. She said, "Oh, yeah. I'm really physically attracted to him." Like, what? He didn't act attracted at all. And her questions were all very fact-based. What I wanted her to do is bring in more warmth.

    5. SB

      Hmm.

    6. VE

      So we can watch it if you want.

    7. SB

      Let's watch it.

    8. VE

      So you can see. Are you ready to meet your lady?

    9. G(

      (laughs)

    10. VE

      Are you ready?

    11. G(

      Yeah.

    12. VE

      Okay. So what is gonna be your opening line? This is the mo- ... We gotta prepare our conversation starters 'cause we can't do a-

    13. G(

      Really?

    14. VE

      ... "How are ya?"

    15. G(

      Hmm.

    16. VE

      A "How are ya?" We can't do that.

    17. G(

      I mean, what if I started with a, "Who are ya?"

    18. VE

      Okay. That breaks the script. I like it.

    19. G(

      That, I mean, yeah. That's like, "What the hell is this?"

    20. VE

      Can I give you another one, though? Can you c- consider, uh-

    21. G(

      Yeah.

    22. VE

      ... w- what's been good? And remember, this could also, the same tip if you were to see someone in a grocery store, someone in the park.

    23. G(

      Right, right.

    24. VE

      Like, what's the opener when you ... it's cold?

    25. G(

      Right, right, right.

    26. VE

      Right? So like, I l- I don't like a, "How are ya?" I don't like a, "What's up, doc?"

    27. G(

      Yeah. "Weather's great, right?"

    28. VE

      No, no.

    29. G(

      No.

    30. VE

      No.

  29. 39:45 – 40:45

    Adding Depth to Conversations

    1. SB

      you watched it back?

    2. VE

      Okay. So do you see he got nervous?

    3. SB

      Yeah. His body language, like, "Ugh."

    4. VE

      Ugh. Because I knew it's easy for him to make friends with anyone. And very likable men sometimes have a, have really a hard time getting serious relationships because they're so likable. They can make friends with everyone. They get confused about where the, where the depth is.

    5. SB

      Is that a bit of a defense mechanism as well?

    6. VE

      It's a defense mechanism. It's also what he's good at. We wanna do what we're good at, which is, you know, um, making chitchat. And a lot of people do this on dates. They'll be like, "Where are you from in Austin?" No. That's the wrong question. What you ask is, "What are your favorite secret spots in Austin? What do you love about Austin? What are the most underrated restaurants in Austin?" That is breaking the script, and that happened to them on this date. There was a good five or 10 minutes of boring fluff because they were on that, and I was like, "Get to the deeper questions." So when you're asking these questions, to prepare ahead of time, "What's the most underrated thing? What's your favorite thing that would have been better?" But he got very nervous when I started- by challenged him on depth.

    7. SB

      So the, the next video's them meeting.

    8. VE

      Mm-hmm.

    9. SB

      Feel free to pause it if there's anything pertinent or anything interesting

  30. 40:45 – 41:47

    Dream Killing in Conversation

    1. SB

      you want to show me.

    2. G(

      What's your favorite spot to go to around here, then?

    3. G(

      Um, to be honest, I don't go out very much.

    4. G(

      Okay. Nice.

    5. G(

      Um-

    6. G(

      What do you do?

    7. G(

      I-

    8. VE

      Okay. She d- ... S- ...

    9. SB

      If someone said that to me, I'd assume they weren't interested in me.

    10. VE

      E- exactly right. Okay. So this is called dream killing in conversation. When someone asks you a question and you shut it down by saying, "I don't do that. I don't like that. I don't want that." With nothing else left. Like, she just stopped. "I don't ... To be honest, I don't really go out that much." And he said to me afterwards, "That's the thing I'm most nervous about is that she sort of shut that down." So when you don't like something, don't dream kill the conversation. A better way to answer that would be, "You know what? I do love to be in my jam-jams at home on the couch watching Netflix. But for the right occasion, I can get out and party sometimes."

    11. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    12. VE

      That would've been a better way to answer that question because it's a little bit playful, and it's not totally dream killing his charisma. And watch this. She's gonna act like she's not interested at all, but she's actually very attracted to him. She said that to me.

  31. 41:47 – 43:09

    Cheersing

    1. VE

    2. G(

      ... work. (laughs)

    3. G(

      (laughs)

    4. G(

      A lot. Um-

    5. VE

      Tell him something you love. Tell him something you love.

    6. G(

      Um, what do I love? Um, what do I-

    7. G(

      What do you love?

    8. G(

      ... what do I love?

    9. SB

      What do you love? Yeah.

    10. G(

      What I love to do. (laughs)

    11. G(

      Uh-huh.

    12. G(

      Uh, work out, be outside, um, be active.

    13. G(

      Yeah.

    14. VE

      Uh-

    15. G(

      These are waters.

    16. G(

      Oh, okay.

    17. G(

      And that was the-

    18. G(

      Yeah.

    19. G(

      (laughs)

    20. G(

      I was like, "I don't know what this is."

    21. G(

      If you would ... Yeah, if you'd like one.

    22. VE

      Always, always do a cheers. Cheers, Steven.

    23. SB

      Cheers.

    24. VE

      Cheers. Cheers.

    25. SB

      What does that do?

    26. VE

      Okay. Cheers. Mm-hmm. It immediately warmed her up. She was very, very stiff in this, and I was like f- ... I said to her, in, in her ear ... By the way, he did not know. Kendrick, poor Kendrick. He still doesn't know that I was, he, we never told him. (laughs) I never told him.

    27. SB

      Okay.

    28. VE

      Surprise! Um, he didn't know that I was in her ear whispering. She was so stiff. I said, "Tell him what you love." Because I was trying to get her to show any kind of warmth or excitement at all because she was so stiff, and then she still, she was like, "Well, what do I love? I work out."

    29. SB

      I just can't believe that she actually liked him.

    30. VE

      Yes.

  32. 43:09 – 44:23

    Drivers and Passengers in Conversation

    1. VE

    2. NA

      I don't know.

    3. G(

      I know. I was just sitting here like, "This is a Tuesday," which is crazy. How long have you been in Austin?

    4. NA

      Two years. (laughs)

    5. G(

      Okay. What? No, that's great.

    6. VE

      Meh, meh, meh, meh. Right? Like, (sighs) like, that's why that didn't work. You just heard it. That's what I don't want you to do on a date. It's a conversational dead end. No numbers questions unless you are absolutely desperate for conversation and you're willing to ask a followup. But it was like, "How about you?"

    7. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    8. VE

      Followup, horrible.

    9. SB

      "How long you been in Austin?" She went, "Four years," and then there was a gap. She had no intent at all of, of asking a followup question.

    10. VE

      Right. No, no intent at all of asking a followup question, and he didn't know what to do with it.

    11. SB

      It's funny 'cause when I watch this I think, sh- he really likes her because he's leading the conversation, and she's just hitting the ball back.

    12. VE

      That's right. But actually, she was very into it. She just didn't know how to hit the ball back. Right? So if you're gonna be in conversation, you wanna be a master communicator. By the way, there are drivers and passengers in conversation. This is what I'm researching right now. You actually don't want all drivers. Right? Like, you don't want two people asking all the questions.

    13. SB

      Yeah.

    14. VE

      But you have to be a good passenger by she should have said, "Two years, but actually, I feel like Austin has changed so much in the last two years. Have you noticed that? Have you been here for a long time?" Like, she should've added one more thing to not dream kill.

    15. G(

      Uh, like three years.

    16. NA

      Okay.

    17. G(

      Yeah.

  33. 44:23 – 45:05

    Micro Wins

    1. G(

      I'm from Ohio.

    2. NA

      Okay.

    3. G(

      Like the Akron area.

    4. NA

      Okay.

    5. VE

      So ask him, "What do you love about Ohio?"

    6. NA

      Do you love ... Do you miss Ohio?

    7. G(

      No.

    8. NA

      No?

    9. G(

      Not really. I mean, I'll go back. My whole family's there, right?

    10. NA

      Can I ask how old you are?

    11. G(

      Y- uh, guess.

    12. NA

      Oh, okay.

    13. VE

      Guess 30.

    14. NA

      Um, 30?

    15. G(

      Yeah.

    16. SB

      Why did you say, "Guess 30"?

    17. VE

      Okay. So I was giving her a micro win. So she ... Remember, we're trying to gift dopamine, serotonin, and t- testosterone, very simplified. It was not going great. Right? I was watching, and this is like, "Oh my God, we're talking about Akron, Ohio. We're in trouble now." Right? So he tried with her. So I knew if she guessed right, it would, like, make her feel good, and I needed her to feel good so she would start driving.

    18. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    19. VE

      So she would start driving the conversation.

  34. 45:05 – 49:35

    Body Language That Indicates Attraction

    1. VE

      So that's why I made ... I told ... I knew his age.

    2. G(

      I'll be 31 in, like, a week, but ...

    3. NA

      Okay.

    4. G(

      Does that count? (laughs)

    5. NA

      I know you're not supposed to ... Oh, wait. You're a Vir- So you're an Aries?

    6. G(

      Yeah.

    7. NA

      I'm an Aries too.

    8. G(

      Oh my God.

    9. VE

      A me too moment.

    10. G(

      They set this up on purpose. (laughs)

    11. NA

      (laughs)

    12. G(

      They literally did, yeah.

    13. NA

      Wait. So what day is your birthday?

    14. G(

      April 1st.

    15. NA

      Okay. Oh, I'm March 29th. What are you doing?

    16. G(

      Are you serious?

    17. NA

      Yeah.

    18. G(

      I think that's my mother's birthday.

    19. SB

      What's her body language giving here?

    20. VE

      Very closed.

    21. SB

      Yeah.

    22. VE

      And in ... I'd never done this before. I wanted to say to her, "Open up. Laugh more. Touch your lips. Touch your hair." There's a lot of things that women can do to show, "I am feeling physically attracted to you." But I was like, ooh. Like, I wasn't sure if she was physically attracted. So here I am thinking, "Is she physically attracted?" If she wanted to show him, "I'm into you," she could have touched her hair. She could have touched her lips. She could have touched the side of her face. All of those are gestures of, like, self-touch that show interest, but she didn't show any of that. She also was ... See how tight ... See how s- little space she's taking up? Defeated body language, let's say. So very, very closed off. We are gonna be in trouble if we can't show that we like someone. I also want you to notice, as soon as they had the me too moment, the thread theory, they both warmed up.

    23. SB

      Yeah. They did, yeah.

    24. VE

      Like, once we get a me too moment, it's, like, so much faster to laugh more. She actually, like, literally re- physically relaxed.

    25. G(

      'Cause we ... I love dancing, and they, like, always have a DJ. It's more like clubby.

    26. NA

      Okay.

    27. G(

      There's rap music here.

    28. VE

      You love dancing. Say, "I love dancing."

    29. G(

      Uh, yeah.

    30. NA

      I love dancing.

  35. 49:35 – 51:16

    Why Busyness Is Not a Mark of Success

    1. VE

      him?" "Yes." "Did you have fun?" "Yes." "Would you like to go out with him again?" "I'm real busy." I was like, "Girl, we handed this guy to you on a silver platter. He's fun, you're attracted to him, and you're too busy? Busyness is not a mark of success. Busyness is going to prevent you from finding your person." And this is a problem we have. We're so busy with our self-care rituals and our workouts and our work that we are missing opportunities for connection, and connection is the thing that's going to make us healthy, happy, and live a long time. We have to stop saying we're too busy to connect with good people.

    2. SB

      Was she actually too busy, like, or is she scared or something? 'Cause I just don't understand that.

    3. VE

      I literally think she thought she was too busy, and I was like, "Get your priorities straight." And this is not even if you're looking for your person. I also see this with friendships. Friends were, we, we put our friendships last, but actually, if we were having a hard moment or a health crisis, who do you want? Your support system and your friends. We have to start prioritizing the connections in our life, especially with good people. And so I, it made me angry because I thought, "This could be a great person for you."

    4. SB

      Do you know what's really wild is had they met in a village 100 years ago, they'd be married.

    5. VE

      Married. Babies.

    6. SB

      They'd be married. But I guarantee, if you hadn't intervened in this situation and this wasn't, if you weren't sort of coercing them to, like, to hang around with each other, they'd never see each other again.

    7. VE

      Yeah, and I said to... After, after mics were off, I was like, "Go get him. Girl, go get him." And they did, and they sat in the bar, and they chatted for the entire hour, and they walked out together.

    8. SB

      Yeah, they left together, uh-huh.

    9. VE

      By the way, let's get some DAOC babies.

    10. SB

      I know. Can you imagine? We-

    11. VE

      Let's get some babies. I will be an officiant at the wedding. We can do it together.

  36. 51:16 – 52:12

    The Jam Study – Too Many Choices

    1. VE

    2. SB

      I imagine, imagine if they... But it's so, I've been thinking about this a lot lately. We were talking about it as a team, us saying one of the issues I think people have these days is we just have too many options.

    3. VE

      Mm-hmm. Too many choices. Yeah, so jam study?

    4. SB

      Too many ******* choices. Do you know the jam study?

    5. VE

      Yeah, yeah. You have tw- you have, you know, 20 jams on a table.

    6. SB

      Yeah.

    7. VE

      People will pick none 'cause there's just too many. When there's only three, people buy more.

    8. SB

      Yeah.

    9. VE

      Very simple.

    10. SB

      And this is going on in dating at the moment. Do you know what it was? A friend of mine, um, we were having a debate actually in the room over there couple of days ago, and they were saying to me, "I just need to meet more guys." And I'm sitting there thinking, "Your actual job is networking. Like, you get paid to meet people."

    11. VE

      Yeah.

    12. SB

      You know more people than anyone I know.

    13. VE

      Yeah.

    14. SB

      I could say, right now, I could say to this person, "I need a chiropractor in Las Vegas," and this person would, should go, "I know the guy."

    15. VE

      Oh, wow.

    16. SB

      So I was saying like, the issue might be that you know, you have too many options.

    17. VE

      Too much jam.

    18. SB

      Too much jam.

  37. 52:12 – 53:08

    Prioritizing Self-Care Over Connection

    1. SB

    2. VE

      Okay, so too many choices is one, but I also think, like, we're so, accidentally, we become so obsessed with our morning routine-

    3. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    4. VE

      ... our evening routine, our rituals, our self-care. Self-care wasn't even a thing that we talked about when I was on social media 10 years ago. So what happens is I see rigidity. There's a new rigidity happening for both men and women, but a lot of women too, where, "Oh, I can't go on that date because I have to do my morning routine. I can't do that thing because I have to get my workout in." And I think that we are putting our connections in last place when actually, if we wanna know what's really good for our health and our longevity, it's our relationships.

    5. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    6. VE

      We get the most of the good chemicals, of the good h- happy laughs and the endorphins when we're with other people, and we keep putting it last.

    7. SB

      You must meet people though, that they've been on like 100 dates.

    8. VE

      Mm-hmm.

    9. SB

      And they, they tell you that they just can't find the person. And you go 100 dates, like 100 years ago, you wouldn't even know 100 people.

    10. VE

      Yeah.

    11. SB

      And you'd be happily married.

  38. 53:08 – 54:23

    Dating Checklists

    1. SB

    2. VE

      Yes. Yes, I also think our checklists are getting in the way.

    3. SB

      Checklists?

    4. VE

      So many single people I know, they'll tell me they have a list. They have a list of things that they really want. I, when I met my husband, I did not have a list, but there was just a connection there. And even though we were very different on paper, it just worked. And so I think that when people have a checklist, it actually blinds them to seeing a connection right in front of their face.

    5. SB

      Yeah.

    6. VE

      And she said to me, I don't know if this was on camera or not, so hopefully it's okay if I share it, but she's like, "You know, I just, I don't know if he's as career-oriented as I was like. That's really important to me." And I knew that was on her list. On her list, on her internal list, career is right up top. Now, they didn't even talk about career. So I said, "Well, do you, did you even know what he does?" "Well, no."

    7. SB

      So she was judging him based on his personality.

    8. VE

      That's it. And it didn't check the list, and so what can happen on these dates is they become very conversationally transactional.

    9. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    10. VE

      "What do you do?" Check. "Where are you from?" Mm, don't know. Check.

    11. SB

      So you're trying to get through your list.

    12. VE

      "Do you want kids?" Mm-hmm. So this, these checklists, I think, are creating a lot of rigidity, and then you add in the busyness, the busyness trap, which is, "I'm so successful, I'm so busy." Busy is not a mark of success.

    13. SB

      Do you think there's also an element

  39. 54:23 – 55:32

    Do We Get More Numb the More We Date?

    1. SB

      that we've got more and more ambivalent with... If we, the more and more we date, the more it becomes transactional, the more we show up with- without passion or interest or curiosity.

    2. VE

      Mm-hmm. I- I don't know if that's ambivalence. I think that is, um, numbness.

    3. SB

      Hmm.

    4. VE

      Like, people have gotten really attractive-I don't know if you've noticed this.

    5. SB

      Maybe they have.

    6. VE

      My goodness, people are so pretty. Like, I'm on Instagram and I'm like, "How does everyone look so good?" Like, I- I didn't really know anyone with an eight pack when I went to school. Like, did you?

    7. SB

      (laughs) No.

    8. VE

      No! 'Cause that wasn't really a thing. I'm like old, right? Like I- no- no one had that. There was no social media. So like, people had like, you know, normal looks. Now people are extremely attractive. And so I think that the bar has gone up so that we're all like numb to how beautiful people are, how funny people are, how kind people are because we've been on 1,000 dates. Or the funniest best thing they ever did is on their Instagram and we saw it, so anything else is like, "Eh."

    9. SB

      Hmm.

    10. VE

      "Seen it."

    11. SB

      Hmm.

    12. VE

      Like nothing is impressive anymore. Like I- there's

  40. 55:32 – 58:26

    Two Challenges If You're in a Funk or Feeling Lonely

    1. VE

      two challenges I recommend for people who are in like kind of a funk. Like if you're in like a- you're burnt out or you're feeling lonely or you're like things are not working, there's two challenges you could consider. The first one is really hard and it's the no mirror challenge. It's you go 30 days without looking in a mirror. Something really crazy happens when you cannot see yourself and see how good you look and see what you look like, and it's especially powerful for women. I did it for 30 days, um, and I went- you have to do all your normal things. You have to go to meetings, you have to go out, but without looking in a mirror. Which means you usually- you don't wear makeup (laughs) , you know, you don't do your hair. You kind of just go out as you are. First you realize that people still like you (laughs) , even if you don't look perfect. So no mirror challenge can give you a lot of confidence and also can show you where your true relationships- your true friends are. The second challenge is a social media or an online blackout challenge. Which is if you don't have any dopamine from your phone, you have to go get dopamine and oxytocin from in-person relationships. So if you have a blackout where you cannot go on any social media or have any kind of interactions on your phone, and you have to go out in person, you actually do. Like I remember when I used to travel for work, and I'd get to a city and there was nothing to do. Like there was no phone in my hotel. I did not have an iPad. You could read a book-

    2. SB

      Hmm.

    3. VE

      ... or you could try to go out, and that's what I would do. I would like get to a city and I'd be like, "Well, I have nothing to do in the hotel room." There's literally nothing to do. I had my book or I could go to the hotel bar or I could go walk around the city, and I met more people in that time of my life than I do now, even though I'm connected to more people than ever.

    4. SB

      I was just thinking then about something someone said to me a couple of days ago which links to what you're saying. Someone said to me that much of the cause of the incel culture is these young men spend lots of time playing video games, and the video games gives them the sense of accomplishment, the sense of building. It also gives them the like dopamine hit when you like win a sword or some coins or something.

    5. VE

      Yes.

    6. SB

      And so I was just also thinking about that in the context of being like a workaholic. Like if I'm working all day every day on a screen and I'm cons- which is what I do.

    7. VE

      Mm-hmm.

    8. SB

      When it comes to like going out and meeting people and networking, for me it's like hell.

    9. VE

      Mm-hmm.

    10. SB

      And I'm wondering if there's a link there. I'm like, "Maybe if I wasn't on a screen all f- for like 12 hours a day, I'd have more dopamine leftover to go speak to somebody."

    11. VE

      Dopamine and also the energy flip wouldn't be so massive. The energy that you're using on your computer is very much output, right? Like you're- you're putting your energy into your machine to create content of some kind. When you go out, it's a feedback. It's back and forth.

    12. SB

      Yeah.

    13. VE

      Go- having your brain switch from one to the next is very jarring. And if you already get dopamine from your screen, what- what's the motivation for going out in person?

    14. SB

      Yeah.

    15. VE

      There's only downside.

    16. SB

      My computer has never energized me, but these conversations always do.

    17. VE

      Mm-hmm. Yeah, why would you go out? You're already having the best conversations you can do and

  41. 58:26 – 1:00:14

    Steve Being a Control Freak

    1. VE

      you're in control. And look, I don't know, just saying, I think you like control.

    2. SB

      Do you think I like control? In what context? What do you think I like control in?

    3. VE

      The reason I- I bring up the control thing is if you are on social media, you are in complete control. You decide how often you scroll, you decide where you click, you decide when you're done with someone, you just exit their video. Well, you know in conversation if I don't like your answer, I can't go, "Off." (laughs)

    4. SB

      Hmm.

    5. VE

      I can't turn your volume down. I can't double click on your like. I actually have to sit and listen to you.

    6. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    7. VE

      And I think that, you know, if you're in control of your conversations, and even like at this table, you are in control. Like I'm talking a lot, but like you could interrupt me anytime you want and I will answer whatever question you ask me. And so I wonder, don't be mad at me, if in like real conversation like I could ask you anything that I want. Like right now, I have a thousand questions for you, but I'm trying to not ask them of you.

    8. SB

      Ask me the questions.

    9. VE

      Well, I asked you the one about control, but you didn't really answer. You- and you tossed it back to me.

    10. SB

      (sighs) .

    11. VE

      You don't think you're a control freak?

    12. SB

      Probably.

    13. VE

      Okay, thank you.

    14. SB

      Yeah, probably. It- it's all context dependent 'cause when you said control freak, I was like, "Well, I don't have any control in that part of my life."

    15. VE

      (laughs)

    16. SB

      That's like a democracy. But typically in- in business, I think that I'm a control freak.

    17. VE

      Yeah, and it's why you're successful.

    18. SB

      I think if you asked my team-

    19. VE

      Yeah.

    20. SB

      ... they'd say, "Yeah, he's a control freak."

    21. VE

      So I would argue-

    22. SB

      Am I a control freak?

    23. VE

      Am I? Jack?

    24. SB

      He's laughing. (laughs)

    25. VE

      (laughs)

    26. NA

      (laughs)

    27. SB

      He was already laughing by then ... the second.

    28. VE

      You answered my question, Jack.

    29. SB

      Yeah. (laughs)

    30. VE

      Thank you, Jack.

  42. 1:00:14 – 1:00:55

    Networking Events

    1. SB

      really struggle with like, um, going to like networking events and stuff.

    2. VE

      Mm-hmm.

    3. SB

      I really struggle with that stuff.

    4. VE

      I don't love a networking event, but I've found that if I have a very specific goal-

    5. SB

      Yeah.

    6. VE

      ... it's better. So like for example, if I- like I'm researching my next book.

    7. SB

      Yeah.

    8. VE

      I'm looking for conversational case studies. So if I'm going to the event and I'm like, "Okay, tonight I'm going to try a new question and see how it goes." You know, I'm then- I'm like, "Okay, I have a purpose." Or if I'm like, "I'm going to practice some new jokes," or if I'm like, "I'm looking from a- a new, you know, business inspiration." Like that helps me. So I think no one really likes networking events, but if you have a goal, it makes it a little bit better. (paper rustling)

    9. SB

      Just for a second, I want to talk

  43. 1:00:55 – 1:01:59

    Ads

    1. SB

      about a company I've invested in, and who sponsors this podcast, called ZOE. Like me, many of you are big on tracking your fitness and your sleep, but how many of you understand how your body handles food? Metabolic fitness is all about understanding your metabolism's response to food, and we all react differently. So ZOE created a test to help you understand how your body responds, and it starts with their famous test cookies, which are identical test meals with the same sugar, fat, and calorie content of the average meal, and therefore acts as a metabolic challenge. You also wear a continuous glucose monitor that tests your blood sugar levels. I've done this test, and it left me wondering how my metabolic fitness compared to others like me, and my results revealed everything. So if you'd like to learn about your body's response to food, head over to zoe.com to order your test kit now. And if you want a discount, use code STEVEN10 at checkout for 10% off your membership. As a ZOE member, you'll get an at-home test kit and personalized nutrition program to help you make smarter food choices that support your health. That's zoe.com with code STEVEN10. We're talking

  44. 1:01:59 – 1:02:50

    How Do Great Leaders Communicate?

    1. SB

      about business there.

    2. VE

      Yeah.

    3. SB

      If I want to communicate more effectively as a leader in business, are there any ways that I can become a little bit more... I guess there's different types of leaders that struggle with different things. But how do great leaders communicate? What do they do well?

    4. VE

      Oh, this is my favorite topic. As a leader, especially if you're trying to get, meet people, and new people especially, your, "What do you do?" needs to be, "I am a, who helps." A lot of leaders struggle with building the right connections, and so they'll be very either, like, intellectual with their answer, so like, or very vague. So like, I've heard business leaders say, "Oh, you know, um, I run a tech company." Hmm. That, that is a dream killer for a conversation. People don't know what to do with that. So what you're better off saying is, "I have a tech company, and we help aspiring cooks."

    5. SB

      So

  45. 1:02:50 – 1:07:02

    Date 2 – Giving People Hooks in Conversation

    1. SB

      this kind of actually pulls us to another conversation you had in our fake date scenario.

    2. VE

      Yeah, yeah.

    3. SB

      If you click on the first link there with the, with the gentleman whose name is...

    4. VE

      Tim.

    5. SB

      Tim. I'm sorry.

    6. VE

      Oh, yeah, Tim.

    7. SB

      I found it really fascinating watching you help Tim introduce his profession.

    8. VE

      I love Tim. So Tim is my person, okay? Tim is my person. Like he, he... Let me tell you about Tim. So Tim is a code monkey/software engineer, which we'll watch that video in a second. He's highly technical. He's very kind. He loves what he does. And on the date, he was actually the only person of the four speed daters who showed warmth the entire time. And I didn't know. I even said to Jack, I was like, "I think he's into her." And I asked him afterwards, I said, "Are you into her?" And he said, "No." And I was very impressed with him, because he still showed warmth, congeniality, and kindness, even though he wasn't physically into her. And I was like, "This is magic." I also think that Tim came across as a little bit nervous and a little bit awkward. And I was like, "Ooh, Tim. If we could just dial up your confidence and add that to your warmth, you are gonna find your person." And so I love Tim. We can watch his interaction.

    9. SB

      The first clip of Tim there I thought was f- fascinating.

    10. VE

      All righty.

    11. SB

      Yeah, that one there.

    12. VE

      Okay. You're gonna have a great date. First, I, can I help you out with some, some advice?

    13. GE

      Yeah.

    14. VE

      Okay, so ignore the cameras completely.

    15. GE

      Okay.

    16. VE

      Um, you're making great eye contact, which I love. Um, she's probably gonna ask you, "What do you do?"

    17. GE

      Okay.

    18. VE

      What is your answer to that question?

    19. GE

      I am a code monkey or a software engineer.

    20. VE

      Okay, cool. So every, any time I meet a software engineer, it's a good answer, but it's a conversational dead end.

    21. GE

      Yeah.

    22. VE

      'Cause unless I'm a software engineer, I don't know what to say. So I'm like... So what I want you to do is actually create a hook.

    23. GE

      Okay.

    24. VE

      So you're gonna say, um, "So what kind of coding do you do?"

    25. GE

      Uh, I do a lot of backend stuff. That's probably too much.

    26. VE

      Nope, nope. Don't even know what that is.

    27. GE

      (laughs)

    28. VE

      You have to think of a hook to give me so that you don't have this, "What do you do?" "Software engineer." "What do you do?" "Teacher." 'Cause we have to have a-

    29. GE

      Yeah.

    30. VE

      We can't, you can't say, "I'm a software engineer." "Do you like art?"

  46. 1:07:02 – 1:09:20

    How to Present Your Job to Someone

    1. NA

    2. SB

      Do you know, I have to say, I don't think he should call himself a code monkey.

    3. VE

      Yeah, it's a bit, it's-

    4. SB

      Demeaning.

    5. VE

      Yeah, and also people, people don't know what it is really.

Episode duration: 2:09:02

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