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The Diary of a CEOThe Diary of a CEO

CMO Of Netflix: "Work Life Balance" Is BAD Advice! I Lost My Baby & My Husband!

In this episode, Steven sits down with the former CMO of Netflix and former Chief Brand Officer of Uber, Bozoma Saint John. 00:00 Intro 02:03 Early context 04:32 Your love for culture 09:31 Your Dad 11:36 What really gives us power in society 13:12 The start of your career 18:30 Deciding your destiny 25:58 The Sunday scaries 28:26 Why you shouldn't dismiss anyone 41:12 Receiving a call from an ex-boyfriend who was struggling 53:29 Finding love at work 01:00:47 Were you ready to be a mother? 01:06:35 Life after losing your baby 01:12:23 You and your partner separating 01:14:23 Your husband getting cancer 01:22:28 Continuing your career despite all your hardships 01:25:50 Career advice you wish you had when you started 01:30:00 How to be a great marketer 01:32:30 The last guest's question Are you ready to think like a CEO? Gain access to the 100 CEOs newsletter here: ⁠https://bit.ly/100-ceos-newsletter Bozoma’s Book: https://amzn.to/3spGeoZ Bozoma: Instagram - https://bit.ly/3s4kqi2 Website - https://bit.ly/3OMzeLd My new book! 'The 33 Laws Of Business & Life' pre order link: https://smarturl.it/DOACbook Join this channel to get access to perks: https://bit.ly/3Dpmgx5 Follow me:  Instagram: http://bit.ly/3nIkGAZ Twitter: http://bit.ly/3ztHuHm Linkedin: https://bit.ly/41Fl95Q Telegram: http://bit.ly/3nJYxST Sponsors:  Huel: https://g2ul0.app.link/G4RjcdKNKsb Zoe - http://joinzoe.com with an exclusive code CEO10 for 10% off Wework - http://we.co/ceoworks

Bozoma Saint JohnguestSteven Bartletthost
Aug 10, 20231h 35mWatch on YouTube ↗

CHAPTERS

  1. 0:00 – 8:40

    Phoenix Origins: Childhood Upheaval, Culture, and Survival

    Saint John introduces herself as a ‘phoenix’ whose life has burned down multiple times, beginning with a political coup in Ghana and repeated relocations before landing in Colorado. She explains how constant change sharpened her ability to read people, decode culture quickly, and survive socially while her Ghanaian mother insisted she honor her own identity.

    • Multiple ‘rising from the ashes’ moments define her life narrative.
    • Childhood in Ghana ends abruptly when her father’s political world collapses in a coup.
    • Frequent moves across African countries and then to Colorado demand rapid adaptation.
    • She develops early pattern recognition: spotting friends vs foes quickly.
    • Her mother forces her to proudly share Ghanaian culture with American peers, teaching her to value what she brings to any room.
  2. 8:40 – 24:00

    Family Expectations, Success, and Redefining Power

    She describes her father, a self-made scholar with two PhDs and extreme standards, who equated success with money and titles. His fixation on upward titles initially shaped her ambitions, but she eventually learns that leadership is about influence, execution, and earned trust—power that can’t be granted by a job title alone.

    • Her father never finished formal school yet earned two PhDs, modeling intensity and high standards.
    • Success at home meant financial wealth, big houses, nice cars, and impressive job titles.
    • He criticized her for taking a lower-title role despite strategic upside, revealing a narrow ladder view of careers.
    • She later concludes titles don’t create power; influence, competence, and a record of being right do.
    • Leadership is persuading others and consistently executing, not just occupying a C‑suite seat.
  3. 24:00 – 35:00

    Finding Destiny: New York, Spike Lee, and Acting on Instinct

    Moving to New York to avoid medical school, she ‘falls into’ advertising but frames it as destiny finding her because she kept moving and exploring. The pivotal moment comes when, as a temp receptionist, she boldly marks up Spike Lee’s script, earning a full-time role and a permanent belief in her own perspective—and a model for inclusive leadership.

    • She comes to New York with no plan, just a desire to escape a prescribed med-school path.
    • She rejects passive ‘let go and let God’ interpretations, defining letting go as dropping rigid plans and pounding on wrong doors.
    • At 22, she asks Spike Lee to read his script ‘Bamboozled’ and returns it covered in red ink.
    • Instead of firing her, Spike validates her notes and offers her a job—an inflection point in her self-belief.
    • She learns to question experts respectfully, to trust her own view, and later, as a leader, to intentionally solicit junior voices.
  4. 35:00 – 49:00

    Intuition, Destiny, and Tuning Out External Voices

    Saint John expands on her philosophy of intuition and destiny, rejecting both fatalism and crowdsourced decision-making. She treats intuition as a muscle that grows louder with use, warns against overvaluing advice from people who don’t live your context, and reframes success as freedom, joy, and peace rather than status markers.

    • Destiny is not prewritten; it’s co-created through countless small choices and movements.
    • The ‘Sliding Doors’ analogy illustrates how tiny divergences lead to radically different outcomes.
    • She believes asking others to decide your life is misguided; even loving people give bad advice because they aren’t you.
    • Intuition must be exercised: if you consistently ignore it, the voice weakens; obey it and it becomes clear and fast.
    • Her current choice to step away from CMO roles is guided by intuition toward more creative, undefined work.
    • She now defines success as freedom to do work she loves, not as titles or material wins.
  5. 49:00 – 1:02:00

    Contribution, Creativity, and Protecting People When Ideas Fail

    Discussing team dynamics, she embraces the idea that everyone has a ‘contribution score’ and stresses leaders’ responsibility to encourage participation without punishing failure. She enjoys ‘Monday morning quarterbacking’ to harvest learning from both hits and flops, while refusing to allow hindsight sniping or blame to destroy creative confidence.

    • People’s historical contributions affect how seriously their ideas are taken; you should protect your ‘contribution score.’
    • Leaders must create space for quieter or junior team members to speak without fear.
    • A failed campaign doesn’t make the original idea worthless; sometimes conditions just aren’t right.
    • Post-mortems should focus on learning, not punishment or grandstanding about having ‘known’ it would fail.
    • Her job as a leader is not just picking great ideas, but protecting people so they’re willing to try again.
  6. 1:02:00 – 1:18:00

    Suicide, Guilt, and the Invisible Grief of Survivors

    She recounts her college boyfriend Ben’s suicide after a turbulent, long-distance relationship in which both struggled with depression. She details the haunting guilt of missing his last call, the trauma of feeling responsible, and her evolving realization that his choice was ultimately his, reframing how she supports struggling friends today.

    • Both she and Ben were on medication for mental health, blurring lines between creativity, angst, and illness.
    • On the night he died, she ignored repeated calls after days of emotional battering and returned to voicemails culminating in his suicide threat and act.
    • For decades she has replayed the ‘what if I had picked up?’ scenario, a classic survivor’s guilt loop.
    • She criticizes how public narratives focus on the deceased but neglect the psychological burden on those left behind.
    • Therapy helped her see that while she might have altered that night, she likely couldn’t have changed his long-term decision.
    • She now over-indexes on checking in, sometimes overreacting because past trauma makes her see crises where there may be none.
  7. 1:18:00 – 1:31:00

    Love, Culture Clash, and Building a Life with Peter

    Saint John tells the story of meeting her future husband Peter, a white colleague she initially dismissed as ‘not her type,’ and testing his seriousness by assigning him Toni Morrison’s ‘Song of Solomon.’ Their intense, fast-moving romance collides with her Ghanaian father’s disapproval, prompting a high-stakes confrontation that eventually gives way to reluctant acceptance.

    • She initially finds Peter wholly off-type—white, ginger, gold chain, open shirt—yet challenges him to read Toni Morrison before a date.
    • He surprises her with deep insights and later an original painting based on the book, triggering her instant conviction he’s ‘the one.’
    • Her father flies from China to New York to confront Peter when she announces they’re moving in together, objecting on cultural and moral grounds.
    • Despite objections and fears about being an interracial couple, they get engaged within a year and marry in 2003.
    • The episode exemplifies her larger theme: letting go of rigid expectations to allow unexpected love and life paths.
  8. 1:31:00 – 1:49:00

    Pregnancy, Preeclampsia, and the Devastation of Losing Eve

    At the height of her Pepsi career, she becomes pregnant for the first time and is horrified rather than overjoyed, fearing motherhood will derail her ambition. Only when complications arise and she develops life-threatening preeclampsia does a fierce maternal instinct emerge; she loses baby Eve after an emergency early delivery, triggering waves of grief, anger at God and Peter, and obsession with ‘doing pregnancy successfully’ the next time.

    • Her first reaction to pregnancy is deep distress, clashing with societal expectations that women immediately glow with joy.
    • At around five months, low amniotic fluid and preeclampsia turn the pregnancy into a medical crisis.
    • Doctors force an early delivery, and the baby does not survive; Saint John feels she has failed at something women have done ‘since the beginning of time.’
    • She is furious that Peter chose to save her life rather than the baby’s when given an ultimatum, creating fractures in their marriage.
    • Within three months, she becomes pregnant again against medical and therapeutic advice, driven less by a desire to mother than by a need to ‘succeed’ at pregnancy.
    • Despite extreme vigilance and treatment, she becomes ill again but ultimately delivers their daughter Lael, whose survival she vows fiercely to honor.
  9. 1:49:00 – 2:07:00

    Marriage Fractures, Separation, and Cancer’s Final Wake-Up Call

    Traumas mount as unresolved grief over Eve, conflict over a second pregnancy, and diverging priorities erode the partnership; she and Peter separate and begin divorce proceedings. His subsequent diagnosis with Burkitt’s lymphoma—and its transition to terminal—forces them to consciously choose forgiveness, recommit to each other for his remaining time, and face mortality together.

    • She and Peter stop functioning as a team, especially around health decisions and her determination to get pregnant again.
    • Empathy erodes; they are unable to see or validate each other’s distinct grief over events like baby loss.
    • Post-separation, his cancer initially appears treatable but eventually becomes terminal.
    • They actively choose to reconcile, have hard conversations about forgiveness, and honor their marriage vow to be together ‘to the end.’
    • Their ‘kiss of forgiveness’ symbolizes not romance but a covenant to walk together to his last heartbeat.
    • His death fundamentally reshapes her urgency about life; she vows never to reach her own deathbed feeling she lived the wrong life.
  10. 2:07:00 – 2:16:00

    Career Aftershocks: Urgency, Uber, and Self-Preservation

    In the wake of immense personal loss, Saint John continues to rise through major brands, but with a sharpened sense of urgency and intolerance for misaligned environments. Her controversial departure from Uber, amid a ‘Delete Uber’ crisis, cements her view that she is not obligated to be any company’s savior and must prioritize saving herself—an ethos she now openly recommends to others.

    • Peter’s death accelerates her sense that time is finite and must not be wasted in roles that drain her.
    • At Uber, she sees the real brand problem as lack of trust rather than isolated PR issues like diversity or safety.
    • She resists being positioned as the person who will ‘fix’ a broken culture single-handedly.
    • Her line ‘You don’t need to be the savior. You can save yourself too’ encapsulates her approach to corporate crisis roles.
    • Critics accuse her of not handling adversity, but she counters that she refuses to endure misalignment or disrespect.
  11. 2:16:00 – 2:24:00

    Selfishness, Quitting, and Redefining Work-Life ‘Balance’

    Saint John openly embraces being ‘selfish’ and dismantles the romanticization of grind culture and work-life balance tropes. She argues for centering your own desires ruthlessly, leaving misaligned jobs and relationships once you have a plan, and treating signals like Sunday-night dread or persistent ‘ick’ around people as non-negotiable warnings.

    • She places no one above herself in her own life hierarchy, not even her child.
    • Being selfish means assessing constantly whether a situation serves you, and if not, planning and executing an exit.
    • She views chronic ‘Sunday scaries’ as a clear indicator you took a wrong turn and must reclaim the driver’s seat.
    • The same diagnostic applies to relationships: dread and ickiness are signs to reevaluate, not to normalize.
    • She insists career advice should have told her earlier to be selfish in work and life, and to ignore shame around quitting.
  12. 2:24:00 – 2:34:00

    Marketing Mastery: Seeing the Forest and Studying People

    Turning to craft, she explains what makes a great marketer and why she has succeeded at the top of iconic brands. Her superpower is ‘seeing the forest’—identifying the root problem (like trust) rather than playing whack-a-mole with symptoms—and combining that with storytelling that is close enough to truth that people willingly believe and embody it.

    • She excels at systems-level thinking: seeing how seemingly disparate issues connect to a single root problem.
    • Her assessment at Uber: people didn’t trust the system—CEO, drivers, or technology—so no single initiative could fix the brand alone.
    • She says the best marketers are great storytellers who can make you believe that a product makes you a better version of yourself.
    • A good marketing story is ‘close enough to the truth’ to feel real while aspirational enough to change behavior.
    • Her advice to aspiring marketers (including her daughter): be relentlessly curious about people, ask why repeatedly, and test ideas against your own genuine emotional reactions.
  13. 2:34:00

    Legacy, Greatest Fight, and Living Without Regret

    In closing, Saint John reflects on the moment that made her fight hardest to become who she is: Peter’s last heartbeat. It solidified her refusal to live by others’ definitions or die with unspent potential, reinforcing her central message that the only viable path to greatness is becoming a fuller version of yourself, guided by your own intuition.

    • She names Peter’s final moments as the catalyst that clarified her life priorities.
    • She now measures every commitment against a singular question: will this help me die satisfied with how I lived?
    • She warns against confusing admiration for others’ lives with aspiration to copy their path.
    • Her parting advice: get to know yourself deeply; no checklist of her steps will reproduce her outcomes.
    • She aligns with the idea that the only greatness you can authentically achieve is the greatest version of yourself, not an imitation of anyone else.

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