CMO Of Netflix: "Work Life Balance" Is BAD Advice! I Lost My Baby & My Husband!

Bozoma Saint John 0:00 If there's anything to know, it is that my world has burned a few times, and that I have risen every time.

Steven Bartlett 0:07 Bozoma Saint John. Forbes' number one most influential marketing chief.

Bozoma Saint John 0:12 She's an international phenomenon. Has led marketing and branding at some of the biggest companies in the world.

Steven Bartlett 0:19 Who have you worked for?

Bozoma Saint John 0:20 Apple, Netflix, Pepsi, Spike Lee. He was walking by with a script under his arm, and I took a red pen to it. I was a receptionist. I really did think I was getting fired that day. But intuition and creativity and following your gut made me be successful. Oftentimes, we're in these situations that aren't serving us, and we're thinking about how the other person's gonna feel. You are going to be unsatisfied with your life. That is the scariest thing. Be selfish in your life, in your career. I didn't want anything to stop me, but I was about five months pregnant when very quickly things descended into hell. I had a condition where the pregnancy is, like, attacking you. And the doctor says to my husband, Peter, "You save her or you save the baby. Which one is it?" She didn't survive. It was the beginning of the big fractures in our relationship. We were no longer a team.

Steven Bartlett 1:09 A few years later, he gets diagnosed with cancer, after you've separated.

Bozoma Saint John 1:13 We had to make a choice to have the conversations which were about forgiveness. Anger and misunderstanding really did not matter. We're going to be together to the last heartbeat. (heart beating)

Steven Bartlett 1:32 Before this episode starts, I have a small favor to ask from you. Two months ago, 74% of people that watched this channel didn't subscribe. We're now down to 69%. My goal is 50%. So, if you've ever liked any of the videos we've posted, if you like this channel, can you do me a quick favor and hit the subscribe button? It helps this channel more than you know. And the bigger the channel gets, as you've seen, the bigger the guests get. Thank you and enjoy this episode. (upbeat music)

Steven Bartlett 2:03 Boz.

Bozoma Saint John 2:03 Yes?

Steven Bartlett 2:05 You've overcome so much. You refer to yourself often as a phoenix.

Bozoma Saint John 2:08 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 2:09 I've heard you describe yourself as that. So, take me back because there's a certain, there's a certain distinctive brilliance and character to you-

Bozoma Saint John 2:19 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 2:19 ... that I know isn't acs- I know isn't common.

Bozoma Saint John 2:26 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 2:26 And that, that uniqueness is what makes you brilliant.

Bozoma Saint John 2:29 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 2:29 So, take me right back to the beginning.

Bozoma Saint John 2:31 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 2:31 What do I need to know about you to understand the person sat in front of me-

Bozoma Saint John 2:34 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 2:34 ... going right back to the start?

Bozoma Saint John 2:36 Oh, gosh. Well, as a phoenix, there isn't just one rising, you know, for me. So, if there's anything to know, it is that my world has burned a few times, and that I have risen every time. Now, I wouldn't say that, like, I rise right away. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 2:53 Mm-hmm.

Bozoma Saint John 2:54 It's not that kind of miracle. It's the dusting off. It's the letting the feathers grow back. It is the, "Can I fly again? Let me try. Ooh, this really hurts. Let me sit down, try one more time, and then, whoosh, I'm off." You know, so that means that it's everything from being, you know, five years old and living in Ghana, and my father being in politics, and the government being overthrown in political, a political coup, uh, and having to uproot ourselves out of Ghana. I mean, that, my whole world burned at that point. Or it is when I was 12, and we had lived in numerous places in Africa, and then moved to Colorado Springs, Colorado. And again, the world shifted and burned, and I'd have to recreate myself.

Steven Bartlett 3:49 Those first 12 years-

Bozoma Saint John 3:50 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 3:51 ... when you look back on the most significant fingerprints they left on you and your character, what are those?

Bozoma Saint John 3:58 Hmm. Um, probably my ability to survive, like get to know people quickly, understand who is a friend and who's a foe quickly. Like, being able to read people, I would say almost immediately. I don't need a lot of proof, you know. I can tell on, like, the first question-

Steven Bartlett 4:21 (laughs)

Bozoma Saint John 4:22 ... (laughs) whether or not you have good intentions for me.

Steven Bartlett 4:26 Do I have good intentions for you?

Bozoma Saint John 4:27 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 4:27 Okay, good. (laughs)

Bozoma Saint John 4:31 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 4:32 Your desire to, um, be able to relate to the person in front of you-

Bozoma Saint John 4:37 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 4:38 ... is, is that also linked to... Because I- it was clear when I was reading about your story that you had a very early love of culture-

Bozoma Saint John 4:44 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 4:44 ... and just, like, what's going on in the world.

Bozoma Saint John 4:46 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 4:46 Like, you know?

Bozoma Saint John 4:47 Yeah. But that was survival. It wasn't, that wasn't, um... You know this battle of, like, nature versus nurture?

Steven Bartlett 4:53 Mm-hmm.

Bozoma Saint John 4:53 I think I have some of it naturally, my curiosity about people and the things that surround me in pop culture. Um, but it was certainly nurtur- nurtured, you know, this idea of like, "Well, I have to understand everything that's happening in this society, so I can talk to you, so I can seem normal to you." You know? So that meant that like, okay, I have to understand American football inside and out. Friday Night Lights were a big deal in Colorado, so I need to understand what's happening in the field, so I don't annoy people with cheering at the wrong time. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 5:28 Mm-hmm.

Bozoma Saint John 5:29 Or music, understanding what was happening at the time and being able to sing along to lyrics or argue with somebody in the hallway about my favorite pop star, you know. Or fashion, make sure that the crease on my jeans was perfect or the way I folded it over and doubled it up was right. You know, all of those things are nurtured. And so it created a lifelong student of pop culture. So, it means that every time...... that something new would happen, oh, I'd be the first on it. I'd be the one who'd be like, "Oh, let me figure out what that is. I need to understand all of it, because should I be in a situation where I'm in front of somebody who really likes that thing, I wanna be able to talk to them. I wanna be able for them to understand that I understand what they're talking about. I'm not so strange."

Steven Bartlett 6:23 And that, that s- explains in large part why you pursued creativity and marketing, or at least why you ended up there. But-

Bozoma Saint John 6:29 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 6:29 Do, do you think it's hard to be yourself when you're trying to survive?

Bozoma Saint John 6:32 Hmm. Yeah, I think so.

Steven Bartlett 6:36 Were you being yourself as you reflect on that chapter of your life, the pre-A Team?

Bozoma Saint John 6:41 Left to my own devices, I probably wouldn't have. I probably would've turned out to be too much a people pleaser. But thankfully, I had a mother who was... Well, both my parents, but my mother in particular was very focused on making sure that all of us girls, I have three younger sisters, understood our worth and the way that we contribute, you know. So, in the process... So imagine I'm 12.

Steven Bartlett 7:07 Mm-hmm.

Bozoma Saint John 7:08 And I'm here trying to understand all the American things.

Steven Bartlett 7:11 Mm-hmm.

Bozoma Saint John 7:11 (laughs) And I come home and I've finally broken through the inner circle of the cool girls, and they've now said they wanna come over to my house.

Steven Bartlett 7:22 Mm-hmm.

Bozoma Saint John 7:23 And here I am in front of my mother, my very Ghanaian, very proud mother, and I'm saying, "I'm gonna need you (laughs) to buy some pizza, get some Fanta up in here, okay? Like, french fries, I don't know what it is. Get all the American foods. Chicken nuggets, the things they like." And she's like, "Uh, absolutely not. (laughs) They're going to eat fufu. They're gonna have some pepper soup. They're gonna eat with their hands because that's what we do in this house." And I'm sitting there like, "Oh, you've got to be kidding my whol- Like are you, like you wanna destroy me? Like I'm just learning how to get along with these people." You know? And the lesson there... And by the way, she didn't, she wasn't, like, cryptic about it. She was very direct, very straightforward, and she was like, "When you go to their house, you do the things they want to do. When they come to your house, they do the things you want to do." She was, did not mince words. And at 12 she said that. Maybe I couldn't have articulated it then, but I certainly understand it very clearly now, which is that I had to understand my own worth, like what am I bringing to the table. Not just about what they have and what they're trying to do and they're trying to communicate, but what is it that I'm bringing? So that the pride I have in my own culture, in my own skin, in my own uniqueness is as important as the things that they like.

Steven Bartlett 8:47 Regardless of apparent consequence?

Bozoma Saint John 8:50 Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 8:52 Because throughout the, whether it's the corporate world or our professional lives-

Bozoma Saint John 8:55 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 8:55 ... there's always an apparent consequence which holds us back from-

Bozoma Saint John 8:57 Oh, absolutely.

Steven Bartlett 8:58 Do, do you think being the oldest of four, four sisters, right?

Bozoma Saint John 9:00 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 9:01 So, do you think being the oldest of four sisters shaped your personality?

Bozoma Saint John 9:03 Oh, absolutely. Yes. I'm the boss (laughs) .

Steven Bartlett 9:09 (laughs)

Bozoma Saint John 9:09 No question about it. But also, that was how our household ran, you know. It's like my, my dad made no small, uh, pshh, no small beings of saying like, you know, reminding me constantly that, "You're the oldest. You have to set the tone. You, you lead the example. You know, your sisters will follow you." I- he says that today. He, I think he said that to me last

Bozoma Saint John 9:31 week (laughs) you know. He's like-

Steven Bartlett 9:32 What's, what's he like?

Bozoma Saint John 9:33 Oh, my dad, oh my God. He is the type of person who absorbs information and holds it and then can spit it back at you. He doesn't need a lot of time to understand concepts or things. I mean, he's a self-taught musician. He didn't go to high school. He didn't go to middle school or high school but has two PhDs. And my dad, um, has very, very high standards (laughs) . So, that is the person (laughs) that I grew up with.

Steven Bartlett 10:00 What impression did he give you about what success was and looked like? And that, and also, in doing so-

Bozoma Saint John 10:06 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 10:06 ... what failure was?

Bozoma Saint John 10:08 Success meant financial independence and financial success, you know. You needed to make a certain amount of money in order to have the nice things, you know, the nice house, the nice car, the vacations, all the things. Um, success also meant big titles, you know. So early on in my career, um, I remember wanting to take a job that had a lesser title than the one I was leaving, and my dad hated that. You know, he was just like, "Huh, wha- But you're taking steps backwards." And my thought was like, "Well, it's not really because the responsibilities are different and better-

Steven Bartlett 10:53 Mm-hmm.

Bozoma Saint John 10:53 ... and they're gonna get me closer to the place I wanna go. You don't understand that, but I understand that." But to him, that was failure. And so, that certainly changed the way that I think about, you know, my own upward mobility, that for some time I did chase titles, you know. But the truth of matter is that a title isn't going to give you power. You know, a title doesn't actually give you anything (laughs) . You know, it's like, what I've learned about leadership is that you have to convince the people who are around you that you are right, that you have a good idea, and that they should input into that thing, and then they will follow you. You think just because you have a chief title that somebody's

Bozoma Saint John 11:36 gonna follow you or not think you're stupid? (laughs) There, there are plenty of people out there who have, you know, that title and teams who don't respect them. And so for me, I think those early lessons were... They have their good things and their bad things, you know.

Steven Bartlett 11:56 Mm-hmm.

Bozoma Saint John 11:56 And the good things were that me understanding that, um, my dad's understanding of what success looked like in terms of titles was not necessarily the only way.

Steven Bartlett 12:05 What does give you power then? So if, if the title doesn't give you power, what does give you power?

Bozoma Saint John 12:10 Influence. Influence.You know, being ... Well, there's a couple of things, because that's a really complicated question. It's like talent alone doesn't do it. Again, met many talented people who couldn't lead anybody, (laughs) you know?

Steven Bartlett 12:26 Mm-hmm.

Bozoma Saint John 12:26 And you have many leaders who have no talent, so it's like a, it's a interesting combination of those two things. Like, you have to be able to be on the ground and do the work.

Steven Bartlett 12:36 Mm-hmm.

Bozoma Saint John 12:36 You also have to convince other people, so that's where the influence comes in. That the idea that you have, or the way that you're saying we should go is the right thing, and then get them to follow you, and then you must execute. Like, you actually have to be right.

Steven Bartlett 12:52 Mm. Yeah.

Bozoma Saint John 12:53 You know? And then if you do that enough times, oh, then it becomes unquestionable. You know? That's when the reputation precedes you. That's when, you know, at least for me, it's like I get into a new job and people expect a certain thing. It's like, "Oh, I've seen you do that over there," or, "I had a friend who worked for you at this place and they said you did..."

Steven Bartlett 13:11 Mm-hmm.

Bozoma Saint John 13:12 You know?

Steven Bartlett 13:12 Your first sort of b- s- real significant career move seemed to be this encounter with Spike Lee's agency.

Bozoma Saint John 13:18 Yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 13:19 So for people that don't know, who is Spike Lee?

Bozoma Saint John 13:21 Okay.

Steven Bartlett 13:21 And how did that happen?

Bozoma Saint John 13:22 (laughs) Spike Lee is blackety, blackety, black (laughs) , first of all.

Steven Bartlett 13:26 Mm-hmm.

Bozoma Saint John 13:28 All the blackness. Uh, no, but he, he is a, um, film director really, at his core. Filmmaker, let's call it that, because he certainly produces and does other things and writes. Um, but he has a, an advertising agency in New York. Uh, when I was there, it was on Madison Avenue. So Madison Avenue is like the place for advertising in the world, right? It's, um, the place where the show Mad Men was made from. So DDB is one of the biggest agencies and Spike had a JV with them.

Steven Bartlett 14:02 What brought you to New York in the first place?

Bozoma Saint John 14:04 Um, (laughs) curiosity. I was ... I graduated from Wesleyan University, which was in Middletown, Connecticut, and, um, it was just time to apply to med school and I really didn't want to, and New York was right there. It was like an hour and a half from school, and I really didn't have a plan. You know, I just, I just went, trying to escape what I thought was my destiny. And like many people say, I think, sometimes in this business, I kinda fell into this. But I think my destiny actually came to find me. That's what it was. I opened up and allowed for something greater that I didn't even know was possible to find me instead.

Steven Bartlett 14:46 So many people are in, in that chapter of their life where they're trying to find their destiny or trying to help-

Bozoma Saint John 14:51 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 14:51 ... trying to f- figure out a way to let their destiny find them.

Bozoma Saint John 14:55 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 14:56 When you look back and connect the dots as to how your career came to be, and you think about that first moment where you, you know, you-

Bozoma Saint John 15:01 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 15:02 ... went to New York, and then you're on Madison Avenue, you're working for Spike Lee and you find, you find your destiny or it finds you.

Bozoma Saint John 15:07 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 15:08 If your, if your daughter, um, comes to you and says, "Mom, what advice have you got for me on finding my destiny?"

Bozoma Saint John 15:13 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 15:13 Like, w- what have I got to do to actively bring it about?

Bozoma Saint John 15:16 Oh, man. Woo. Have you ever heard that statement, like, "Let go and let God"?

Steven Bartlett 15:20 No.

Bozoma Saint John 15:21 Have you heard that before?

Steven Bartlett 15:21 No.

Bozoma Saint John 15:22 It's a very Christian thing. I feel like in the, like, Black church, there is a lot of that. "Let go and let God." You know, as if God is just gonna just, "Bloop, bloop, bloop."

Steven Bartlett 15:29 (laughs)

Bozoma Saint John 15:29 Sprinkle magic dust over you, you know? And I'm like, no, I don't, I don't necessarily believe that just as a plain statement. I think the letting go is an action. You know, it's not surrender. It's not like you just lay down and it's gonna find you. You're not gonna find your destiny sitting on the couch. You know, the letting go for me is like the letting go of preconceived ideas about what it is that you are going to do. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 16:00 Mm-hmm.

Bozoma Saint John 16:00 Letting go of, mm, sometimes you're like trying to do something and keep hitting a wall, you know? You're just like, "Oh, if I just hit it one more time, it's gonna break." Mm. Sometimes it's like, you know that's a cement wall, right? If you just move five feet to the right, it's actually plaster-

Steven Bartlett 16:19 Mm-hmm.

Bozoma Saint John 16:19 ... and you're gonna go right through it. You know, it's like sometimes it's the letting go of this thought that you had, which is like, "Oh, I'm going to do this thing right here," is the magic. And I'll tell you this, look, it didn't just happen at that stage in my life. It's happening right now where, you know, I'm like, "Okay, well, I think I am done with my corporate CMO work. I believe I'm finished, so I'm going to let go. Let go of it. I'm not going to be actively looking for the next CMO job. I want whatever is coming for me to come. I'm gonna allow space for it." Now, it doesn't mean I'm just sitting around. (laughs) I'm also, you know, trying to polish other skills. I'm trying to create. You know? Because perhaps the next thing that's coming is somewhere more in that space. I can feel it like in my spirit. And that understanding of like your intuition, and if you're listening to it, it's like a magnet. It's gonna just draw you closer to the thing that you're supposed to do.

Steven Bartlett 17:31 Mm-hmm.

Bozoma Saint John 17:31 And it has happened every single time, like every time without fail. Like, every job, every move I've made hasn't been because somebody said, "Oh, you know what? This makes logical sense. One plus one equals two." Sometimes I'm just like, "Mm, but it's not math though, you know? It's physics, because not ... It's not the addition, it's the subtraction." I'm just gonna sit here, and I'm gonna get up and I'm gonna go talk to this person, and I'm gonna talk to that person, and I'm gonna sit back down again, and I'm gonna write this thing out. And then like magic (laughs) , because I don't know how else to describe it, it's like the destiny appears. I'm telling you, every time it has happened.... every single time. Even when people were like, "Oh, that is never gonna happen." Like, "You're wasting your time. I don't know why you'd go over there and do that." I'm like, "Mm, I don't know. Something, something inside, I'm telling you. It's telling me that this is the way to go. I'm gonna go over there." Every time

Bozoma Saint John 18:30 it's worked.

Steven Bartlett 18:31 But, but do you believe... So there's a lot there for me.

Bozoma Saint John 18:34 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 18:35 There's a lot that I'm interested in there. Do you believe... Because I wanna be clear-

Bozoma Saint John 18:38 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 18:38 Are, are you... 'Cause some people hear that and go, "Ha ha. L- love that. Everything happens for a reason."

Bozoma Saint John 18:43 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 18:43 "I'm gonna chill-"

Bozoma Saint John 18:44 Mm-mm.

Steven Bartlett 18:44 "... and my fate is prewritten and it's coming for me."

Bozoma Saint John 18:47 Mm. Mm!

Steven Bartlett 18:48 Bo said all I gotta do is wait-

Bozoma Saint John 18:50 Mm! Mm! Mm!

Steven Bartlett 18:50 ... and it's gonna... 'Cause everything happens-

Bozoma Saint John 18:52 Mm!

Steven Bartlett 18:52 ... for a reason, it's prewritten, so I just gotta-

Bozoma Saint John 18:55 No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No!

Steven Bartlett 18:55 ... play these tarot cards and I'm gonna- (laughs)

Bozoma Saint John 18:59 No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! This is when I start banging on the table. (laughs) No! No! No! No!

Steven Bartlett 19:03 If I just chill here. (laughs)

Bozoma Saint John 19:05 No! No! No! No! No! No chilling here. Okay? (laughs) I think you're probably testing my energy. I'm not one of those chilling here type people anyway.

Steven Bartlett 19:10 (laughs)

Bozoma Saint John 19:10 You know? Um, and I don't believe things are prewritten, actually. Like, for me, the idea of destiny isn't that something is already predetermined for you. I think you create your destiny, also. You know, meaning that, like, look, there was a movie in the, in the late 90s called Sliding Doors. Starred Gwyneth Paltrow. Um, the concept is basically, like, you know, if you're running for the train and you catch it, you know, you jump inside, you have one destiny. If the doors close and you still stand on platform the ne- you have to catch the next train, it takes you to a different destiny. That's the concept, right? It is what I also believe, which is that, like, my destiny is not prewritten, but the movements that I make are what lead me to the thing that's actually for me.

Steven Bartlett 20:01 Mm.

Bozoma Saint John 20:02 You know? And so it's a constant evolution. So I don't believe that you have to sit and wait for it. I think your constant movement, your constant discovery is actually what then brings the destiny to you. So this isn't about predetermined anything or just, like, let me just chill out on... Like I said, you can't sit on the couch and expect your destiny to come for you.

Steven Bartlett 20:23 So it's not reading my horoscope-

Bozoma Saint John 20:25 No.

Steven Bartlett 20:25 ... getting tarot cards and-

Bozoma Saint John 20:26 No disrespect to the tarot card readers. (laughs) But I do believe that we are constantly creating our destiny, you know, that this life that we're living, these experiences, the people we're meeting, the people you're in relationships with, ooh, it happens because there's a certain action that you take that leads you to that thing. Now, it's your choice whether or not you take it, and then that's when the whole intuition thing comes up for me, right? Because I'm like now, you may have caused a lot of action and then you have a couple of choices in front of you. Where are you going? Which one is calling you? And you know what people like to do. They wanna write pro and con lists, they wanna ask people for advice. "Ah, do you think I should do this or should I do that? Both of these look good." Why are you asking other people? They don't know. They're not, they're not living your life. They don't have the, the whole dest... They have their own thing. Like, why are you asking them? And if you got quiet for a second and heard your intuition... But then again sometimes people are scared, right? Because it's telling you do something that you probably don't wanna do. You're a little scared of it. And then you're gonna choose the wrong thing.

Steven Bartlett 21:45 It's hard to hear your intuition when George is-

Bozoma Saint John 21:49 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 21:51 ... very loudly telling you-

Bozoma Saint John 21:52 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 21:53 George being your father.

Bozoma Saint John 21:54 Yes. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 21:55 And, and everyone can relate. There's, there's always an external voice which is very loud, whether it's social expectation or Instagram or George-

Bozoma Saint John 22:00 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 22:01 ... saying that this is the right thing to do.

Bozoma Saint John 22:02 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 22:03 So, like, how do you tune into your intuition and out of George?

Bozoma Saint John 22:06 It's like any muscle. You know, it's like look, we all have biceps. But some people's biceps are enormous.

Steven Bartlett 22:13 Thank you. (laughs)

Bozoma Saint John 22:14 (laughs) That was good. (laughs) That was, that was, that was super smooth. That was really nice. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 22:23 (laughs)

Bozoma Saint John 22:23 Nicely done. Um, but it is like any muscle. You know, you gotta work it. You've gotta listen to it. You have to make it brave to talk to you. You know, I, I kinda feel like, um, it's like that friend... Now this is not about multiple personalities. But, you know, it's like that friend who's talking to you inside your head. You know, and like if you keep dissing it and keep being like, "Shut up. T- No, that's a bad idea." If you keep doing that, that voice is gonna get quieter and quieter. What makes you think it's gonna ever be like, "T- Listen, Boz, I told you..." No. T- Look, my intuition is so loud, oh, there's no way... Oh, I meet people and will be like, "T- That person's not for me." And no. By the way, somebody else will be like, "Oh, that is a very powerful person." You know, they'll introduce you to this other person, or, "Oh, they're so smart. They've done this and that and that and that and that." Not for me. No. So I'm not, I'm not even going to engage. Like, my intuition is that strong. I trust it a hundred percent.

Steven Bartlett 23:33 Because you've had to train it, right?

Bozoma Saint John 23:34 Yes. Yes. I've had to, I've had to allow it to lead me.

Steven Bartlett 23:39 Is that because of what you said earlier about the survival and the pattern recognition is developed now where you can kind of-

Bozoma Saint John 23:45 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 23:45 ... you see a couple of cues, your intuition goes, "Oh, we met this person a couple of times."

Bozoma Saint John 23:48 Yes. Yes, yes.

Steven Bartlett 23:49 And it never ended well.

Bozoma Saint John 23:50 Yes. That's part of it, for sure. Like, throughout my life I've had to listen to my intuition, allow it to lead me, even when other people were like, "No." Whether it was my dad or a friend or a mentor, a boss, you know, when they've been like, "Mm, mm-mm. No, that's not the thing you wanna do. You should do this. This is, this will be more successful for you."... and then my intuition was like, "Actually, I don't think so. I think you need to go this way." It is so hard. I'm not pretending as if, like, this is the easy thing where it's like, "Oh, just listen to your intuition, you'll be fine." Thing is dumb hard. You know, it's like, look, because sometimes the logic- (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 24:31 Is strong.

Bozoma Saint John 24:31 ... makes a lot more sense-

Steven Bartlett 24:33 Yeah.

Bozoma Saint John 24:33 ... than your intuition. And so, I'm not saying that it's easy, but it is the only choice if you wanna be successful. And successful to me these days means that I am happy and at peace and enjoying the thing I'm doing. It's no longer about the title or the house, or the thing. Like, do I have freedom? Oh, man. Like, and freedom isn't just like, "Oh, I can do whatever the hell I want." Freedom is that, like, I can be working on a campaign and not sleep for three days 'cause I'm so excited about it. That's the kind of freedom I'm talking about. Like, really enjoying the things that I'm doing. And if I am listening to my intuition, it's gonna lead me to those opportunities that allow me to have that kind of experience with people or with jobs, or w- whoever.

Steven Bartlett 25:22 It's such an important question that I don't think people ask themselves there which is, what is your definition of success?

Bozoma Saint John 25:27 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 25:27 And I know it's kind of, kind of like a fluffy question or whatever else, but-

Bozoma Saint John 25:30 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 25:30 ... once you have that as your North Star, it completely changes your, your, like, direction of travel.

Bozoma Saint John 25:35 Right.

Steven Bartlett 25:35 So, like, that central question, I think, and, uh, everyone listening to this now, like, like, what is your, what is your truly your definition of success? 'Cause if you don't, if you're not clear on it-

Bozoma Saint John 25:42 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 25:43 ... someone else is gonna write that definition for you.

Bozoma Saint John 25:44 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 25:45 And it might be George.

Bozoma Saint John 25:46 Ugh.

Steven Bartlett 25:46 You know what I mean? (laughs)

Bozoma Saint John 25:47 Yes. Or, or anybody else.

Steven Bartlett 25:48 Yeah, (laughs) or someone else.

Bozoma Saint John 25:49 You know what I mean?

Steven Bartlett 25:50 Or Instagram might write it for you, or-

Bozoma Saint John 25:51 Yeah, or your partner.

Steven Bartlett 25:52 And you're gonna, you're gonna go down that path and find yourself lost.

Bozoma Saint John 25:54 Oh, my God.

Steven Bartlett 25:55 And it will just be a feeling inside your chest that says, "Ooh, we t- we made a wrong

Steven Bartlett 25:58 turning."

Bozoma Saint John 25:58 Every time. You know, sometimes that shows up in the Sunday scaries?

Steven Bartlett 26:02 Oh, my God, yeah.

Bozoma Saint John 26:04 It shows up there.

Steven Bartlett 26:05 Yeah. We were having a conversation about this yester- not yesterday, was it? On Sunday, we were like-

Bozoma Saint John 26:08 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 26:09 ... "Isn't it strange that it's Monday tomorrow, none of us have, it's not crossed any of our minds?"

Bozoma Saint John 26:13 Exactly, or freaked out about it.

Steven Bartlett 26:14 Yeah.

Bozoma Saint John 26:15 God, it's like, ugh, man, when I, when I started recognizing that Sunday scaries were tied to my wrong turns... (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 26:26 (laughs)

Bozoma Saint John 26:26 Whoo, guess who jumped into the driver's seat real quick? Me. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 26:31 (laughs)

Bozoma Saint John 26:31 You know, it's like, look-

Steven Bartlett 26:33 So true.

Bozoma Saint John 26:33 And again, we're not saying, we're not making light of it being like, "Oh, this is so easy, just change direction." You know?

Steven Bartlett 26:39 Mm-hmm.

Bozoma Saint John 26:39 But it's so helpful when you recognize it and then you're like, "Oh, okay."

Steven Bartlett 26:44 Mm-hmm.

Bozoma Saint John 26:44 "Now I can do something about this." You know, it's like, right, isn't that the first step of, like, any problem solving, is to recognize the problem? Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 26:52 As, don't you think life ha- like, Sunday scaries is a signal.

Bozoma Saint John 26:56 Oh, man, I'm telling.

Steven Bartlett 26:58 And it's a signal-

Bozoma Saint John 26:58 Whoo.

Steven Bartlett 26:58 ... and it's a very important signal-

Bozoma Saint John 27:00 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 27:00 ... and it's screaming at you.

Bozoma Saint John 27:01 Mm. So loud, so loud. And the thing is that, the thing about Sunday scaries in relationship to anything in your life, um, when you are in a relationship, let's say romantic, and you have to go hang out with that person, and you're not feeling so cute about it, mm, might be time for you to reevaluate (laughs) -

Steven Bartlett 27:24 (laughs)

Bozoma Saint John 27:24 ... whether or not this relationship is good for you. You know? It's like-

Steven Bartlett 27:28 Mm-hmm.

Bozoma Saint John 27:28 ... you should be feeling the, like, "Ooh, I really wanna go do this thing with this person."

Steven Bartlett 27:32 Mm-hmm.

Bozoma Saint John 27:33 You know? And for me, it's not even about length of time, because, you know, marriage is not something where it's like people tell you all the time, "It's so hard," and it's like, you know, "You'll fall out of love with this person and then fall back in love with them," and da da da da da. It's like, I'm not talking about, like, the fickleness of your everyday feelings, I'm talking about, like, the consistency of a mood that you are in when you are in the presence of that person. Like, do you feel great? Do you have ickiness when you're with them? Like, that, ooh, ooh, that's a, that's a Sunday scary that you need to watch out for. So, it's not just about, like, am I gonna wake up and go to work tomorrow at a job I hate? I apply that to everything in my life. And that's the kind of freedom that I want in my life, that, like, I don't engage with people that I feel the ickiness with.

Steven Bartlett 28:26 There's s- so many, throughout your experience of arriving in New York and then working with Spike Lee and-

Bozoma Saint John 28:32 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 28:33 ... um, there's so many really interesting moments that I, sort of categorize and provide clues as to how you got here today. One of those early moments was when you were in New York and Spike Lee puts the, the script on your desk.

Bozoma Saint John 28:46 Mm, yes.

Steven Bartlett 28:47 Because that is for me, that is for me a really clear, it was like a f- like a fork in the road, you coulda done one thing-

Bozoma Saint John 28:53 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 28:53 ... or another thing.

Bozoma Saint John 28:54 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 28:54 And the choice you made in that seems to be quite pivotal. Can you tell me about that?

Bozoma Saint John 28:57 Yes. So, interestingly, it wasn't just that he put the script on the desk, he was walking by with the script under his arm, and as I shared, I'm, you know, I love to read, and I know that Spike writes with a very Black point of view about the African American experience, and I was fascinated by that. And so as soon as I saw it I was like, "Oh, uh, I mean, this must be something interesting that he's either writing or reading, I wanna, I wanna be part of it."

Steven Bartlett 29:26 And what was your job there at the time?

Bozoma Saint John 29:27 I was the assistant. Actually, not even the assistant, I was, I was answering the phone. I was a receptionist-

Steven Bartlett 29:32 Okay.

Bozoma Saint John 29:32 ... at his agency. A temporary receptionist. I didn't even have the job yet, I was only filling in, and, um, but it felt... There was a little bit of naivete in it, you know, in that, like, I don't know if 15 years ago even, if I saw Spike walking past my desk, I would've been like, "Hey, what are you reading? Can I read that?" 'Cause I would've used all my logic to say, "Oh, he's so important, whatever he's holding there he needs, he's not going to give it to you, so why even ask?" I probably would've explained it to myself that way. By the time there was a little bit of that, uh, naivete, brashness (laughs) , arrogance even, you know, where I was just like, "Oh, whatever he's reading I wanna read." And so that's what I asked him, just said, "What do you have?"... you know, and he said, he said his script for Bamboozled. And I was like, "Okay, well, can I read it?" And he looked at me incredulously and he was like, "Sure, here you go. Have it back to me in three days and let me know what you think." And of course, he had a smirk on his face and so did the office, everybody who overheard the conversation, and I really didn't understand what that meant. But of course, in hindsight, I understood that it was such a complicated piece of writing that he probably didn't think I would finish it, one, or have anything to add. And I took a red pen to it, a literal red pen. He likes to tell the story now that, like, you know, he gave this receptionist his (laughs) script and I came back three days later with markups and notes in the margins. He said, "You know, I think that this dialogue here could be flushed out a little bit. I didn't understand what happened between these two characters." You know, and he was just like, "Pfft, what? You marked up my script?" And I was just like, "Oh God, I didn't, I didn't know." Man, I thought, I really did think I was getting fired that day. And, uh, he went into his office, slammed the door. I sat there. Man, I'm telling you, I had my purse with me and I was just sitting there waiting for him to open up the office so that he could tell me I was fired. And meanwhile, I'm thinking in the back of my head, "My dad's gonna kill me because I'm not even supposed to be in this job. I have a college degree. Why am I a receptionist at this office anyway?" And then he opened the door after what felt like 17 hours. It was probably just, you know, 30 minutes. (laughs) And that's when I got the job. He was like, "You made some good notes. You should stay."

Steven Bartlett 31:53 How old were you?

Bozoma Saint John 31:55 22.

Steven Bartlett 31:56 So you're 22 and you, um, take a red pen to-

Bozoma Saint John 31:59 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 32:00 ... one of the most famous film directors-

Bozoma Saint John 32:02 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 32:02 ... work.

Bozoma Saint John 32:03 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 32:04 And that gets you the job?

Bozoma Saint John 32:05 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 32:06 What, what's the lesson there?

Bozoma Saint John 32:07 Oh, it changed my entire life. Oh, that changed my entire life. I've had a few inflection points in my life. That is absolutely one of them. Without that moment, I don't know, and maybe at some other point I would have learned it, maybe it would have come to me anyway. Um, but I'm so glad it came to me then, that there is no one who knows more about anything than you do. It just doesn't exist. Like, look, I'm not saying you should go ahead and try to do, like, open heart surgery. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 32:39 No. Yeah.

Bozoma Saint John 32:41 Maybe don't do that, you know?

Steven Bartlett 32:43 Okay.

Bozoma Saint John 32:43 But if you are the patient getting counseled by your doctor and they say, "You know what? I think we're gonna have to do open heart surgery." But you feel like, "Hey, look, I don't know that you understand all the symptoms that I'm trying to discuss with you and that, uh, you seem to just skip by a bunch of these things that I've just said. I'm gonna have to go for a second opinion." (laughs) That's the kind of belief I have in myself, you know, where I'm just like, "I'm gonna question you even though you're the expert and say, 'I don't know,' because you really didn't pay attention to what I was saying. So let me just go and try and talk to somebody else." That that moment when Spike said, "Sure, go for it." And I went for it, and then he said I had some good ideas? Oh, come on. Like you just said, he's one of the most brilliant filmmakers of all time. He will be in the annals of history. And he thought, as a 22-year-old, I made some good points on a script that is one of his most difficult to read. Psh, you can't tell me shit. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 33:47 It's hard to f- and for anything or anyone to undo that, that conviction in evidence, right-

Bozoma Saint John 33:51 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 33:51 ... that he gave you in that moment.

Bozoma Saint John 33:52 Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I feel like also I learned something as a leader from him in that moment, that there aren't people on my team that I dismiss for lack of tenure or understanding, you know? That there are so many people who can contribute to an idea or to a campaign, who can challenge your strategy without having (laughs) more knowledge than you do of the thing. You know what I'm saying? That, like, there are junior people on the team that you should ask their opinion, 'cause they're probably gonna look at it from a different perspective than you ever would. And they might say something that changes the entire direction of the thing you're doing, and you should listen to them.

Steven Bartlett 34:41 Sometimes it's hard for those people to speak up, right?

Bozoma Saint John 34:44 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 34:44 Because, because of that, um...

Bozoma Saint John 34:45 Yes. But that's why, again, the lesson from that moment is that, like, when he says, "Sure," (sighs) it's like as a leader, why would I not say sure to somebody or make the room for them to be able to speak up? You know, I've been, (laughs) I've been known in my teams to... I'm like a teacher, I'll call on people, you know? And not to make them feel badly, but just allow space, you know? See somebody who looks like they're... And again, this comes down to, like, some of those lessons from when I was 12, reading people, body language, seeing somebody's itching to jump in the conversation but they can't find a space 'cause that knucklehead over there talks too much. We've all been in those meetings.

Steven Bartlett 35:28 Mm-hmm.

Bozoma Saint John 35:28 You know? And then just being like, "Hey, did you, did you have something to say? You know, do you, did you wanna contribute to this? Do you have a thought about this?" And then sometimes people will be like, "Oh, no, no, no, I," no? They'll get shy, you know, where, like, they'll, I can start to see them, like, panic.

Steven Bartlett 35:41 (sighs)

Bozoma Saint John 35:41 And I'm like, "Okay, no problem. But if you do, just let me know." You know, and just give them a second to be able to gather themselves. Or sometimes it, you know, they'll be like, "Yes, actually, I just, I just wanted to say..." and they'll contribute. And you know, sometimes the contribution is great and sometimes it's a bunch of crap, (laughs) which you'll never know unless you ask.

Steven Bartlett 36:01 The counter narrative to that is do you think... I, I was playing around with this idea that I think-

Bozoma Saint John 36:05 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 36:05 ... in teams, people end up having what I call, like, a contribution score.

Bozoma Saint John 36:09 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 36:09 And it's kinda like a credit score.

Bozoma Saint John 36:10 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 36:10 But it's like the historical value of when you speak-

Bozoma Saint John 36:13 Ah.

Steven Bartlett 36:13 ... whether it's valuable or not.

Bozoma Saint John 36:15 Yeah, yeah, yeah, uh-huh.

Steven Bartlett 36:15 And so like your credit, when you go for, um, you wanna, like, lease a car or you wanna get a house, whatever, if you've got a bad credit score, you're probably gonna get shut down upon...... you know, upon application.

Bozoma Saint John 36:25 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 36:25 And if you've got a bad contribution score, i.e. if you tend to just-

Bozoma Saint John 36:28 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 36:29 ... contribute without thinking or you're just speaking for the sake of speaking-

Bozoma Saint John 36:32 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 36:33 ... then when you speak, th- the first word starts at a lower level of (laughs) appreciation.

Bozoma Saint John 36:38 (laughs) That is so true. God, I've never thought of it that way. I love that, though.

Steven Bartlett 36:44 And you gotta, so there's the conve-, this is a converse point-

Bozoma Saint John 36:46 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 36:46 ... because it means you do wanna protect your contribution score.

Bozoma Saint John 36:48 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 36:48 You don't wanna just speak for the sake of speaking.

Bozoma Saint John 36:49 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 36:50 You know, if you're brainstorming a campaign and I go, "What about a billboard?"

Bozoma Saint John 36:53 Right, and people are like-

Steven Bartlett 36:54 And you look over and you go, "That was a fucking-" (laughs)

Bozoma Saint John 36:57 Yes. Stupid. We already done billboard. You know what I mean?

Steven Bartlett 36:59 (laughs) Yeah.

Bozoma Saint John 37:01 Yeah. But that's the thing is that, um, you know, it's, it's kind of also the same way that I look at failure of ideas, you know? Oh, man, that can kill a, (sighs) that can kill your creativity faster than anything else. You know? It's not, it's not just your contribution score, but it's like, you know, it's like if we're like, we're in the meeting, okay? And here you are. Maybe you spoke up by yourself, maybe I called on you. And you said the thing and everybody in the room is like, "Oh my God, that's actually, that's really smart. Yes, yes, yes. We should do that." And then we do the thing and it bombs.

Steven Bartlett 37:33 Mm-hmm.

Bozoma Saint John 37:34 Oh man. You know, this, this is when, again, as a leader, it's like you gotta come in and protect the people's spirit. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 37:43 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Bozoma Saint John 37:44 And their confidence.

Steven Bartlett 37:45 Yeah, yeah.

Bozoma Saint John 37:46 You know? It's like that idea of failing fast, like that's when it really comes into play. It's like, "Oh, no, no, no. Dust yourself off. Everybody get up."

Steven Bartlett 37:53 Mm-hmm.

Bozoma Saint John 37:54 "We're gonna try this again. We're gonna try a different way. Thank you for contributing. Sit your ass down. Okay, who else has another idea?" (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 38:00 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Bozoma Saint John 38:00 You know what I mean? But making sure that they're no longer a pariah also.

Steven Bartlett 38:04 Mm-hmm.

Bozoma Saint John 38:05 You know, but that's your job as the leader to do that. And you know, it's like this, look, we, we each have a value and a role to play in that context, right? So as the person who came up with the bad idea or the stupid contribution, your job isn't to then dust yourself off and try to come again. You know, you can do that, but that's really hard to do if you don't have somebody on the other end who's pulling you to do that.

Steven Bartlett 38:33 Mm-hmm.

Bozoma Saint John 38:33 You know?

Steven Bartlett 38:34 Mm-hmm.

Bozoma Saint John 38:34 And so my job in that role is to make sure that you come back. That is my job. You know, it's not just to pick the good ideas. It's to protect the people.

Steven Bartlett 38:45 Mm-hmm.

Bozoma Saint John 38:45 Protect the good ideas, protect the bad ideas. Like make sure they, they keep rising every time something bombs, because it's going to bomb. Like you're not gonna get a perfect score all the time.

Steven Bartlett 38:59 And it's funny 'cause as you were saying that, I was thinking it was only a bad idea when it hit the market.

Bozoma Saint John 39:04 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 39:04 It was a good idea up until then and-

Bozoma Saint John 39:06 Ugh.

Steven Bartlett 39:06 ... that's an uncontrollable, right? No one can... So celeb-

Bozoma Saint John 39:08 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 39:09 ... probably should be celebrating the, the, running the experiment itself first-

Bozoma Saint John 39:14 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 39:14 ... is the outcome of the experiment, I would say.

Bozoma Saint John 39:15 Yes. That's right. That's right. That's right. And always, you know, I, I love Monday morning quarterbacking. I love it. You know, some people think it's like a punishment. I, I really try not to make it feel like punishment where you review the thing that happened that went bad, you know?

Steven Bartlett 39:29 Mm-hmm.

Bozoma Saint John 39:29 And everybody wants to pile on. No. Now all of a sudden, this person who didn't say one word in the meeting was, "Well, I knew it was a bad idea from the start." Oh, I cannot stand those type of people. That... Look, in a meeting with me, you all understand that's a, that's a wrong thing to say. If you're gonna be the one who says, "Well, I knew it was gonna be bad from the start." Well, then you should have said that shit before we went and executed it. Otherwise, don't tell me now.

Steven Bartlett 39:49 Mm-hmm.

Bozoma Saint John 39:49 You know? So it's like the picking apart of the thing, like, okay, what was the thing that went right? What was the thing that went wrong? What could we, what could we have done differently to get a different outcome? And sometimes it's nothing.

Steven Bartlett 39:59 Mm-hmm.

Bozoma Saint John 39:59 The conditions were right. The idea was right. It was executed right. It just didn't hit. And then sometimes you just could be like, "Ugh." Just chalk it up, like, that, it sucks. You know? Or you do learn something. You're just like, it was such a great idea in the room, but then we went outside and we were all in love with it, that we missed the huge red flag. Everybody missed it. Nobody saw it. Nobody saw that like, actually it wasn't that funny. We laughed in the room, but it wasn't that funny.

Steven Bartlett 40:29 (laughs)

Bozoma Saint John 40:29 (laughs) You know? It's like, and that has happened to me so many times, so many times where it's like you just fall in love with the thing and then you go outside and nobody thinks it's good (laughs) except for the people who are in the room with you, you know?

Steven Bartlett 40:44 Mm-hmm.

Bozoma Saint John 40:45 It's like putting on a really great outfit at home, you know, and you just look at yourself in the mirror, you're like, "Ooh, I am, I am just too cute. Oh, I'm fine. I'm about to pull one tonight."

Steven Bartlett 40:55 (laughs)

Bozoma Saint John 40:55 You go outside and ain't not one person talk to you. (laughs) You see pictures later, you're like, "I did not look like that. I know I didn't. I swear to you, I looked better when I saw myself in the mirror." (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 41:07 Can't relate.

Bozoma Saint John 41:08 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 41:08 No, I'm joking. I'm joking.

Bozoma Saint John 41:10 Of course, you can't. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 41:10 I'm joking. I'm joking.

Steven Bartlett 41:12 But go, so that time when you're working in New York, what, you're working with Spike at his agency.

Bozoma Saint John 41:16 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 41:17 I read you took a phone call from an ex-boyfriend at college who was-

Bozoma Saint John 41:20 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 41:21 ... in a difficult moment in his life.

Bozoma Saint John 41:23 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 41:25 What did he say on the phone? What can you share?

Bozoma Saint John 41:27 You know, I think this is the part about like when, when you think about things that you would do over.

Steven Bartlett 41:35 Yeah.

Bozoma Saint John 41:36 You know, the ways that you would have reacted differently and torture yourself about it. I do that now still, even though I've been through a lot of therapy. (laughs) Even though I know that, um, the outcome probably would've been the same at a different time. You know, he suffered from, uh, from mental illness that I obviously couldn't diagnose. You know, we were in a romantic relationship that now, of course, looking back was, was toxic. I didn't know how to help him. And eventually, he decided to end his life by suicide. And I blamed myself for a long time. To some degree, I still do.... you know, wishing that I had said something different, wishing that I had known better to ask for help, um, wishing I'd just been a better friend or girlfriend, you know. And even now, um, I remember writing a post on Instagram when someone famous died by suicide and, um, you know, there were all of the things that people say. They're like, "Oh, you never know what somebody's dealing with." Or like b- you know, or like, "Call this line if, you know, you're thinking these thoughts." And all I could, like, uh, the only way I could react to it was just like, but the people who are around that person, feels like the guilt you feel, the terrible burden you carry for the rest of your life, like, what do those people do? It was like, what- what hotline is- exists for them? You know, how do you manage that feeling? It is a sort of survivor's guilt to some degree. You know, I feel the same about people who are survivors of a loved one's terminal illness. We never talk about those people. You know, you always talk about the person who's suffering. And I'm not saying we shouldn't. I'm just saying that we have to consider the entire circle of people, you know, and how do you give advice, help, (sighs) relieve the guilt, the sadness, the grief, the regret? All of those things. And it is still something that I- I deal with in terms of many different types of griefs I've had in my life.

Steven Bartlett 44:23 Mental health and mental- mental illness-

Bozoma Saint John 44:24 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 44:24 ... has become increasingly, um, discussed in society-

Bozoma Saint John 44:28 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 44:28 ... in the last 10- 5, 10 years.

Bozoma Saint John 44:31 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 44:31 When I was a kid, I didn't-

Bozoma Saint John 44:33 Oh, yeah. No, nobody talked about it. No. Of course.

Steven Bartlett 44:34 ... know what it was. I didn't know it was a thing.

Bozoma Saint John 44:35 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 44:36 Um, uh, now it's very popular in conversation. D- did- had he made any indications that he was suffering and could he- could he articulate-

Bozoma Saint John 44:45 Yeah. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 44:45 ... that he had mental health challenges?

Bozoma Saint John 44:46 Um, yes. I mean, he was on medication.

Steven Bartlett 44:49 Right, okay.

Bozoma Saint John 44:49 So he knew he was- he had challenges. Um, but- and look, I was- I was clinically depressed as well, I was on medication (laughs) . We were- we were both on medication, you know. Um, and the challenge with having any mental illness is that sometimes you know how you're diagnosed and you know that you have to take medication for it, but maybe you don't feel like you're ill. And he was an artist, a musician, and so sometimes as a creative, that gets confused, right? 'Cause you're just like, "Oh, but I need my angst in order to create." You know, "I pull from this deep, dark well, and that's where my artistry comes from." And he would say stuff all the time, you know. He would be impassioned about, you know, it's like, "Well, none of it is worth it." You know, "If this- if this doesn't work, I don't know what I'm gonna do." You know, or like, would be so dependent on me for his own happiness. You know, things I did would set him off or not. You know, so then you are tied to that person's ups and downs, even though it has nothing to do with you, right? And again, like, look, I've had a lot of therapy to talk about this, and so I can articulate it, but it doesn't change the way that you really feel about it.

Steven Bartlett 46:06 Mm-hmm.

Bozoma Saint John 46:06 You know, I can academically talk about it and say, "Ah, well, you know, he behaved this way and therefore I behave this way." Right? we were like a tit for tat type situation. But when you're in it, all you wanna do is to protect that person. You know, all I wanted to do was keep Ben up. That's all. By any means necessary, you know. So if it meant that I had to stay on the phone for six hours, that's what I had to do. If I had to miss my own meetings and calls and friends and dinners and- no- then that's what I had to do.

Steven Bartlett 46:48 Did- did he call you-

Bozoma Saint John 46:50 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 46:50 ... around that time?

Bozoma Saint John 46:51 Yes. Yes. He called me. Well, that day he called, he was having one of his episodes, you know, and was accusing me of cheating on him or, you know, whatever the thing was. And I was just so exhausted. It'd been a number of days of this constant battery. Um, he was living in Geneva and I was in New York. And so he was- you know, we were on different time zones. He couldn't see anything I was doing, but was accusing me of all kind of things. I was just tired. And so I said, "I needed to go out with my friends, going to go to dinner." Of course, you can imagine the battery of insults, you know, that he hit me with. And I hung up the phone and just went. And I could hear the phone ringing when I left my apartment, you know, but I thought like, "Ugh, he's just gonna have to cool off and I'll get back to him when I get back." And when I did, he had left me a series of increasingly panicked voicemails. Uh, and the last one was the one where he said he was gonna jump from a bridge, and that was it.

Steven Bartlett 48:02 And he jumped from a bridge?

Bozoma Saint John 48:03 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 48:06 Where are you- where are you at with- with, um... 'Cause I know you said you could kind of look at it objectively, but it doesn't change how you feel about it.

Bozoma Saint John 48:12 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 48:12 Where- where- where are you at today? I mean, you're what, two decades on from that?

Bozoma Saint John 48:16 Yeah. Um, he was such a brilliant person, you know, a brilliant creative. I- I wish I could have saved him and myself.You know, meaning that, um, I wish I had known to ask for help in that situation. I didn't know what to say. I didn't know how to... I didn't know how to articulate what he was doing or how I was reacting to it. I thought it was my fault. You know, that if I just, like, loved him harder or better, whatever better meant, you know, that he wouldn't have jumped. I think about all the time what would have happened if I had answered the phone when I heard it ringing when I was leaving. Was that the moment he decided? You know, maybe if, maybe if I had picked up the phone, he wouldn't have felt desolate and alone. I think about that all the time.

Steven Bartlett 49:24 All the time?

Bozoma Saint John 49:25 All the time. All the time. I mean, I... So much so that I apply that, and many other things that have happened in my life, um, in current situations. You know, meaning that like if, um, there is a situation with a friend who's going through something or is, you know, telling me about some challenge that they're having and I feel powerless or I feel like I don't have the answer, I consider whether or not I am their last call. And I consider that like, okay, well, what, what else, who, who else can I pull into this to help because I, I don't know what to do. And by the way, the trauma response to that is that sometimes it's not even like that (laughs) . You know what I'm saying? It's like it's not e- Uh, like, I'm jumping to a conclusion that they're not even anywhere near, but that's where I'm going because that's my experience, you know? And so I'm always considerate that it's like if somebody's going through something tough or there's a friend, you know, they tell you that checking in on your strong friends. Again, I don't even know what that means, but, you know, it's like if I have a friend who I haven't heard from or like I know they're going through something tough and I call them and they're not answering (laughs) or they, I call them and they sound funny to me, oh, I'll be the first one drive over there and be like, "I just had to lay eyes on you. I had to see that you're all right. Okay, you good? Okay, okay. You just need some ice cream? All right, I got you." You know? But I'm, I'm, I'm very conscious of the fact that people are delicate. Our lives are delicate. And even when somebody looks like they got everything together, there might be something really unsettled right underneath the surface. And so how can I be more conscious as a friend? Now, the difference, what I've learned in 20 years though is that, um, although I consider like could I have changed the outcome of that night, maybe I could have changed the outcome of that night, but it doesn't mean that he would not have decided to end his life. And I have also grown in understanding that it was his choice. It was his choice. It really didn't have anything to do with me. How a person decides to live their life or leave their life is their choice, and I have to respect it. That's what has changed in 20 years.

Steven Bartlett 52:02 It's really interesting because, you know, we spend so much of our lives fighting the choices that other people make.

Bozoma Saint John 52:07 Oh. Yes.

Steven Bartlett 52:08 Right? Especially people we love.

Bozoma Saint John 52:10 Yes. Because you think, you think (laughs) you know better-

Steven Bartlett 52:14 Yeah.

Bozoma Saint John 52:14 ... for them.

Steven Bartlett 52:15 Or you can change it or-

Bozoma Saint John 52:16 Yeah. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 52:16 ... it's better. You know, you know better for them. Yeah.

Bozoma Saint John 52:18 Yes. But that's why I think the same thing we've been talking about with intuition that it applies to you too. It's like you think you know better how somebody else should live their life, and they think they know better how you should live yours. And they're gonna advise you that way. That's why it's like, you know, when we talk about, like, listening to your intuition or whether or not you're going to, you know, march to the beat of your own drum. And it's like, look, there are gonna be people in your life who love you desperately, who want the best for you and are going to advise you horribly. This is not their life. They can't help you because they don't even know where you are. They've never been there before. Huh, it might look familiar to them, but they've never been there. They're not in your shoes. They don't have your context.

Steven Bartlett 53:09 So who can advise you?

Bozoma Saint John 53:10 Yourself is the only person, the only one. Not your mama, not your best friend that you've known since you were three (laughs) -

Steven Bartlett 53:21 (laughs)

Bozoma Saint John 53:21 ... not your mentor who you admire and who has reached the place you wanna go. Even they can't do it. They can't do it.

Bozoma Saint John 53:29 They don't know.

Steven Bartlett 53:32 You found love in Peter-

Bozoma Saint John 53:34 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 53:34 ... at work.

Bozoma Saint John 53:35 Yes (laughs) . You know, interest-

Steven Bartlett 53:36 You weren't interested in him at first?

Bozoma Saint John 53:38 No.

Steven Bartlett 53:39 (laughs)

Bozoma Saint John 53:40 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 53:40 What changed?

Bozoma Saint John 53:42 Uh, what changed? (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 53:44 Why weren't you interested in him?

Bozoma Saint John 53:45 I mean, if I had that answer, like, we could solve all of love's riddles, right?

Steven Bartlett 53:49 (laughs)

Bozoma Saint John 53:49 Like-

Steven Bartlett 53:49 Do you know what's really interesting? Earlier on when you talked about let go and let God-

Bozoma Saint John 53:53 Uh-huh.

Steven Bartlett 53:54 ... it really struck me as a relationship metaphor as well-

Bozoma Saint John 53:56 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 53:56 ... because we go through life thinking, "I want brunette with this size this-"

Bozoma Saint John 54:00 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 54:00 "... and that, and da, da, da, and I'm gonna, um..." And we, we're not, we're too... We got our blinkers on and we're too narrow-

Bozoma Saint John 54:05 Right.

Steven Bartlett 54:05 ... for all the great-

Bozoma Saint John 54:06 Oh.

Steven Bartlett 54:06 ... people that might come along.

Bozoma Saint John 54:07 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 54:08 Like, you might have met your husband or wife already-

Bozoma Saint John 54:10 Mm!

Steven Bartlett 54:10 ... but you were just so-

Bozoma Saint John 54:12 Mm!

Steven Bartlett 54:12 ... caught up in how they were-

Bozoma Saint John 54:13 Mm-hmm!

Steven Bartlett 54:13 ... supposed to look-

Bozoma Saint John 54:14 Mm!

Steven Bartlett 54:14 ... and how much money they were supposed to have.

Bozoma Saint John 54:15 Come on, preach.

Steven Bartlett 54:16 (laughs) No, I can't. I can't.

Bozoma Saint John 54:19 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 54:19 (laughs)

Bozoma Saint John 54:19 No, but it's true. But, but that is... You know, part of it is that, um, you know, when you say let go and let God, it's like, yes, the letting go of these-

Steven Bartlett 54:29 Preconceptions.

Bozoma Saint John 54:29 ... you know, preconceptions, whether it's for job, or love, or friends, or whatever, but it's also the action of being like, "Okay, let me just... All right, let's go and see what this is."You know, and for me, it's like, when I met him, yeah, he was not my type. You know, this, like, white man who was a ginger, for God's sake. I mean, what the hell was I gonna do with that? (laughs) You know? It was like... And he was wearing this big, fat gold chain, two buttons open in his... I mean, God, even thinking about it now, I'm just like, "Oh, how embarrassing." (laughs) Like, really. Seriously. You know? But he, um, he surprised me. We... Like, uh, basically, the story is that he w- said he wanted to get to know me, he wanted to take me to dinner, and I was like, "Absolutely not. I'm way too fine for you, okay?" Yes, because that is what I also think. (laughs) And, um, I was like, "Look, if you want to get to know me, Mr. White Man, you're gonna read Song of Solomon by Toni Morrison." And he was literally like, "I don't even know what that..." He was like, "I, I... No one has ever even said that to me." And I'm like, "Yeah, exactly. Go read Song of Solomon by Toni Morrison, and then we can have dinner and talk about it." Why that book? It was my favorite book. It is still my favorite book. And it's just so, you know, it's like... Look, Toni Morrison as an author does not come down to your level. Toni Morrison is up here. She's not going to mince words or, like, change metaphors or not let you stare at the uncomfortable realness of being Black. (laughs) She's gonna hit you in the face with it. And I was like, "Oh, I wanna see this very privileged white boy read this work and then come talk to me about it." That was my trick. So, he came back very quickly, by the way, and I was like, "Oh, I'm gonna call his bluff." Because first of all, he didn't read it, okay? And even if he did read it, there's no way he has a greater understanding of that story or that work than I do. I mean, I was like... I'm an African American in English Lit major, for God's sake. So, I'm Wesleyan. Like, and I'm Black. There's no way he knows more. And he surprised me. We went to dinner and he had such interesting insights. And, um, you know? I mean, like love does, I was struck by Cupid's arrow sitting there at that dinner. I swear. It was like first night. Fell in love instantly. (laughs) Y- you moved quickly, right? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That was November 9th, 2000. And by January, I told him I loved him. Also because he had painted me a, uh, his interpretation of Song of Solomon, oil on canvas. He'd never picked up a paintbrush before. Um, the painting now hangs in our daughter's room, by the way. Um, and he gave it to me for my birthday. And I, poof, man, I was like, "Yep. He's the one. I wanna marry him. That's it." And my very Ghanaian father was not into it. (laughs) At all. Did not approve. Um, especially when I said, "Oh, we're gonna move in together." Like, we moved in together, we'd known each other for eight months and we'd already decided we were gonna get married. And at a year, he proposed. I said yes. And I was like, "We're off to the races. This is it." What did George have to say about it? Oh, hated it. Hated it. When did he meet him? In fact... Oh, gosh, it was a terrible situation. Um, well, my parents came to visit in, like, February. So, my mom knew I was very much in love. My dad was not aware. Right. And they came to visit me, just as, you know, coming to visit me in New York, see how I'm doing. And, um, I orchestrated for Peter to come by for dinner. Uh, and also, just to set context, it wasn't like I introduced my dad to boyfriends. My dad had never met anyone. And so, for him to meet somebody was like, "Well, who is this?" And, "What does this mean?" You know? But, you know, he tells it now that he just thought it was, you know, me finally coming into some, you know, early love and he just thought it would be, you know, something he could dismiss. Um, but by August, when I called him and said, "Hey, I- I'm gonna move in with my boyfriend," and he was like, "Absolutely not." Like, "First of all, this is shameful. Okay? You're not going to marry this white person. Like, h- th- that's not gonna work for us. You're the eldest, what are your sisters going to think? You can't live in sin." And he was on a business trip to, in China, and without telling me, he flew to New York straight away, uh, and did not come to my office to talk to me about it. He went to Peter's. Showed up in his office. And Peter, like, calls me, and his voice sounded all funny and crazed, and he was like, "Um, your dad is here." And I was like, "There's no way. I just talked to him yesterday. He's in Beijing." And he's like, "No. He's sitting in my office." (laughs) And I was like, "Oh, I'm on my way." And then I hear my dad in the background like, "You will do no such thing. This is a conversation for men." I'm like, "What?" He's like, "Okay, I'll give you 15 minutes, and then I'm there." Yeah. And to this day, I don't know what they talked about while I was not in the room. But I know that when I got there, there was some, they'd brokered some understanding between each other. And even though my father was still unhappy with the decision made to move in with him, he did not stand in the way. And when I eventually married Peter, he walked me down the aisle. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:00:40 What year was it that you, you married Peter? Was it 2001, did you say?

Bozoma Saint John 1:00:42 2003.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:43 2003. So, you got engaged in 2001?

Bozoma Saint John 1:00:45 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:46 You met in 2000?

Bozoma Saint John 1:00:47 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:48 Okay. Yeah, quickly. Very quick.

Bozoma Saint John 1:00:50 Yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:53 And you fall pregnant in 2000...

Bozoma Saint John 1:00:56 2008 for the first time.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:58 08?

Bozoma Saint John 1:00:58 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:01 Were you ready, whatever that means, to be a mother at that point?

Bozoma Saint John 1:01:06 No. No, no, no, no, no, no. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I didn't even think I wanted to be a mother.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:12 Ever?

Bozoma Saint John 1:01:13 No. I wasn't sure that I did. You know, I was, I was in... My career had just begun to like, s- you know, climb in a way that was very visible to me.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:26 You were working at Pepsi at this point?

Bozoma Saint John 1:01:27 Yes, I was working at Pepsi and having really good success. Uh, and I was, (sighs) I mean, influenced by all of the societal pressures that women have in the workplace, you know? That's like, "Look, if you have a baby, it's gonna slow down your career. Um, people will look at you differently. You know, maybe your attentions are going to shift." And so you thought you were ambitious about your career, but let a baby come along, and now all of a sudden you want the baby, you don't want the career. I, I didn't, I didn't want anything to stop me from the ambition of getting to the top, you know? And also, I was just like, "I'm having a good time. I just don't wanna be responsible for anybody else." And I found out I was pregnant and I cried.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:13 You cried?

Bozoma Saint John 1:02:14 Oh.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:14 What kind of tears?

Bozoma Saint John 1:02:15 No, like the fugly tears. Like, the tears that make you vomit type tears. The tears that when I called my mom to tell her, she was like, "Stop crying." (laughs) You know? The tears that Peter didn't know how to react to because he was so excited. He was s- he was elated. And, uh, you know, I was thinking, "This is awful." You know? It's like, "I don't wanna be pregnant." And how do you actually say that when, you know, at that point, we'd been married for almost five years. We were like coming up on our fifth anniversary. I had a great job, he had a great job, we had a beautiful apartment in Manhattan. It's like, why wouldn't you... You know? It's like everything seems perfect, right? It's like, no one could look at me and say, "Oh, you're in a tough situation. You shouldn't have a baby." You know? It felt selfish to say I didn't want to be pregnant, to become a mother, and I, pff, I went into it under duress, (laughs) you know? I actually don't think that, um, women especially, I don't think women talk about that enough. You know? It's like the society's pressure of like becoming a mother at a certain stage in life, or that if you become a mother and you don't want to be, even when things are perfect, uh, that that can also feel like failure or feel like a trap. It's like somehow you're supposed to get pregnant and then start glowing immediately. You know? Start feeling like all the motherly feels. I didn't feel any of that. I didn't want it. And to be totally candid and transparent, it wasn't until I was about five months pregnant when there was the first sign that something might be wrong with my pregnancy, that all of a sudden it was like whatever that instinct was that was supposed to kick in when I found out I was pregnant, it kicked, it kicked in at that point. You know? It's like I went from being someone who was very cavalier about the pregnancy and trying to think about like, "Oh, I gotta get my snap back. Like how am I gonna get my six pack back after this is done?" You know, I went from that person to the like, "Well, what do you mean that there's like low amniotic fluid? What does that mean exactly? C- Is the, is the baby okay? Like, is, is this little homie growing?" Or like, "Let me hear the heartbeat again." You know? It's like I, it was, it was really that moment that did it. And very quickly, things descended into hell. I discovered that I had a condition called preeclampsia. It's essentially when your blood pressure rises in your body 'cause your body acts like the pregnancy is like attacking you. And so every cell begins to fight against the pregnancy. Um, I was forced to deliver the baby early, and she didn't survive. And it was... You know, for someone who had not wanted to be pregnant, it was extraordinarily devastating. I think it was a combination of things. You know? It's like I had begun to developed all the protectiveness of motherhood. You know, very much like I felt in Ben's death, I thought, "How could I have been a better mother to this unborn person?" You know? What was my failure in taking care of myself so that I could have a healthy child? (sighs) And, uh, again, the similarities are parallel where it's like, look, there's, there's nothing I could've done better.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:26 The aftermath of that-

Bozoma Saint John 1:06:28 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:28 ... of losing Eve?

Bozoma Saint John 1:06:29 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:32 Take, take me into that moment. What was that, what was th- your life

Steven Bartlett 1:06:35 like in that moment?

Bozoma Saint John 1:06:36 Hmm. I don't... Oh gosh, how do I even articulate it? I don't know that there is, um, a word to describe...... the combination of, like, grief over something or someone lost that you really n- never had, you know, with a combination of anger, raw, fierce anger at God for this situation, at Peter for having made the choice in the moment of crisis when I'm sitting there and in the bed and the blood pressure's going up and I'm delirious. And the doctor says, you know, "There's only one choice here. You save her or you save the baby. Which one is it" And Peter says, "We'll save my wife." And I was pissed because, again, the, whatever that thing is that clicked in my head that said protect the life that is coming first, I was like, "No, you should have chosen that one. I've already lived. I've already lived. You should've chosen her."

Steven Bartlett 1:07:54 You said that to him?

Bozoma Saint John 1:07:55 Yes. Yes. It was the beginning of the, some of the big fractures in our relationship, that moment. You know, and then also feeling like an utter failure 'cause it's like, pfft, I mean, women since the beginning of time have had babies, apparently easily. My mom had four. (laughs) You know? It's like, uh, uh, stolen Africans were having freaking babies in fields with no epidurals or childcare. And here I was living a very lavish lifestyle, having an OB-GYN that worked out of the Upper East Side of Manhattan, and I couldn't even do that. Ugh. All of those feelings were so raw and combined. And then on top of it, my almost debilitating drive to be successful at it. You know? It's like, again, we just go back to some childhood things that said, "Well, look, I've gotta, I've gotta do the thing. I've gotta be the best at the thing," right? It's like, so now, okay, this has happened. I have all of these terrible, scary emotions that are going on, but I'm gonna be a mom. Eh, clearly that's what I set out to do. So, now I've gotta do it. And so three months after Eve died, I got pregnant. By the way, my doctor, Pete, everybody was like, "Absolutely not." Like, "This is not a good idea." Nah, pfft. My therapist, everybody. I was like, "I don't care. I'm gonna do it." Not necessarily because... And this is a difficult thing to say. It's, it's not because I necessarily want to be a mother. I wanted to do it successfully. I wanted to prove to myself, to my body that I could do it, you know? That, like... Oh, and I, I wanted to, like, yell at God and be like, "Tuh (laughs) . Like, did you take this away because I said I didn't want it? Well, okay. Now, now I want it, so let's do it." You know? And even when I got sick again with my second pregnancy, I was like, "Look, I'm gonna do everything." Man, I consumed so many prenatal vitamins, boy. Look. (laughs) I, I would take 'em by, like, the palmful and be like, umph. You know? And there wasn't... I got a specialist. I had... I was taking, uh, Lovenox. For anybody who knows, it's like, you know, this blood thinner that I would have to inject into my belly every single day. Man, I was the most obedient pregnant woman you ever seen in your life. And I still got sick seven months into my pregnancy. Still with all of that. And so again, it's like, look, sometimes there are (sighs) situations that you cannot control. Like, very much like Ben. Like, he would have chosen to end his life at some point, with or without my love, with or without me answering the phone. I was going to get ill (laughs) with or without the prenatals, with or without a specialist. Those are not controllable by me. But I was still trying my best to be successful, to do it well. And when Lael was born, she came out screaming. And I took one look at that girl, and I was like, "Tsk. Yeah. You and I, we're gonna make it." Like, "You... Whoo. (laughs) You came here by any means necessary, and I am going to love you, like, fiercely, deeply," 'cause it just took too much to get her here.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:24 A year after Lael's birth, I believe, Peter and you separated?

Bozoma Saint John 1:12:28 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:29 Connected to all of that?

Bozoma Saint John 1:12:31 Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Connected to all of that. I mean, I think there's... You know, traumas in our life, of course, and especially I think for a married couple, and again, for us, you know, it's like, Peter really wants to be a father. I wasn't sure I want to be a mother. We get pregnant. Terrible things happen in the pregnancy. We lose Eve. I blame him entirely (laughs) and God, you know? Um, he becomes...... o- obsessed with my health in my next pregnancy. He does not want me to get pregnant. I'm like, "I'm going to, with or without your consent." No, I'm kidding. But it's became a battlefield in our home and in our relationship. We were no longer a team.

Steven Bartlett 1:13:21 What was missing?

Bozoma Saint John 1:13:25 Probably empathy. I can probably just narrow it down to that. Like, a very shallow understanding of what the other person was going through. It's- it's remarkable to me now to think about it, you know? It's like, how do two people who love each other so desperately go through the same event and cannot grieve together, can't see the other one's grief? How is that even possible? You know?

Steven Bartlett 1:14:00 Just a few years later, he gets diagnosed with cancer-

Bozoma Saint John 1:14:03 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:05 ... after you've separated.

Bozoma Saint John 1:14:07 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:12 These moments in life can have a interesting influence on our perspective-

Bozoma Saint John 1:14:16 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:17 ... how we feel about somebody-

Bozoma Saint John 1:14:18 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:19 ... and the situation. How did it influence your perspective, his diagnosis?

Bozoma Saint John 1:14:23 Peter was the type of person who never got sick, you know? He'd walk around Manhattan in wintertime with, like, a windbreaker. (laughs) You know, he didn't get colds. He just didn't get sick. Uh, and even in our separation, um, and we had then agreed to get divorced, um, he was always very, like, valiant, you know? He just was not a person who fell. (laughs) I don't know how else to describe it, you know? That he just wasn't... He was just tall and big and just barreled through life. And for him to be diagnosed that way, with Burkitt's lymphoma, which is a cancer that is not curable, but at the time, you know, his oncologist were like, "Okay, you're gonna do radiation, you're gonna do chemo." You know, there's no surgery, really, because it just attacks the lymph nodes everywhere. And there's no way to get rid of all the tumors, so the best thing to do is try to shrink them and hopefully they go away. Okay. I mean, who, you know... We didn't know any better. But by the time his cancer was deemed terminal, uh, all of the anger and misunderstanding and battles (laughs) over the different events in our life really did not matter. They did not matter. And I realized that, like, you know, that probably sounds so corny to say and maybe feels like a throwaway thing that like, "Oh, when you're faced with, you know, the finality of life, you just realize that, you know, you let go of da, da, da." No, no, no, no, no, it's not, it's not automatic like that. You have to make a choice. We had to make a choice. He had to ask me the question for us to reconcile. I had to decide that that is what we're going to do. We had to make a choice to have the conversations which were about forgiveness. We had to make the choice to look at every day and say, "Okay, well, what are we gonna do today that is gonna prepare us for the end?"

Steven Bartlett 1:16:43 You recount a kiss you had with him, a kiss of forgiveness.

Bozoma Saint John 1:16:46 Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, it was, um... It was unlike the first kiss. You know, the first kiss where it's like the butterflies and you're not sure how much pressure to apply and, you know, should I open my mouth a little bit? Should I give him a little tongue or no? You know? Like, it wasn't that kiss. It was the kiss of knowing 13 years have gone by in a very complicated relationship full of the challenges of being an interracial couple and him understanding my experience or not, me understanding his experience and not. You know, the challenges of health and our parents getting sick and, oh, all of the things, my ambition for my career, his, you know, lack of understanding of that. It was just all of the things, you know? And to be in that moment and then to say, "Okay, we're- we're going to be together until the end because that's what we promised." You know? And to truly kiss and make up, I think that's another, like, casual statement people say, you know, kiss and make up. It's like, no, no, you, like... That covenant of like, "We are in this again to the end and I won't leave."

Steven Bartlett 1:18:23 And you didn't leave?

Bozoma Saint John 1:18:24 No. To the end. To the last heartbeat.

Steven Bartlett 1:18:35 H- how do you say goodbye to someone?

Bozoma Saint John 1:18:38 Oh. You know, I don't know that you do. I haven't. You know, there's, um... Oh, there is the physical loss, of course.... right? And grief in that is complicated also, you know, because, no, I can't pick up the phone and call him, or he can't, I can't see his wide smile at something I did, or his scowl if I do something wrong, you know? Um, I have multiple griefs of that. I have grief that Lielle will never know her dad in the way that I wish she knew him.

Steven Bartlett 1:19:34 Mm-hmm.

Bozoma Saint John 1:19:34 You know? He, like, so desperately wanted to be a father, and he loved her so deeply that sh- I, I grieve for her in that not knowing. But there is also, for me, the understanding that he really is still around. (laughs) This is where it's like, everybody's like, "Uh-oh." (laughs) "She sees dead people." (laughs) And I'm like, "Sort of." You know? Because I do believe in, like, the signs and wonders of things. It's happened too many times for me not to. You know? And it's, um, it feels very much like my intuition, you know? Where I'm just like, "Uh-oh." You know? "I know what he would have thought about X, Y, and Z thing. I know, I already know." You know? And so to some degree, it's like, I still feel his presence because I am aware of how he would be if he were here. (page flips)

Steven Bartlett 1:20:35 Quick one. You guys know that for years now, my office has quite literally been everywhere. On a plane, in the back of my car, in a terminal in an airport, or on a train. You name it, I've probably worked there. Ever since I started my first business at 19 years old, I've been working on the move. All I need is wifi, a desk, and my headphones, and I'm set. And one of the places that has always had my back when I'm struggling to find an office is WeWork. I've been using WeWork for years now. Whether it's in Manchester, London, Manhattan, or LA, WeWork is easy. It literally requires no thinking. There's no stress of finding the perfect working location. WeWork does it all for you. Plenty of desk space, meeting rooms, collaboration spaces, drinks, snacks. It's all there. So for your next remote working trip away from the office, or if you want a new, fresh space to work in, then don't just work anywhere. WeWork might just be your answer. And you can get 25% off your first six months of WeWork All Access by using code CEOWORKS. That's one word, CEOWORKS. And to redeem this offer, visit we.co/CEOWORKS. (page flips) It's funny, every year, around this time of year, for whatever reason, I go on a little bit of a psychological shift. And that psychological shift, I think, is somewhat inspired by summer. But it's also inspired by the fact that I want to feel strong in this season of life. And as I age, strength training is my number one form of training. And the question becomes, how do you build muscle, and how do you become strong in terms of supplementation? And this is where Huel's nutritionally Complete Protein product is my best friend, for a couple of reasons. One, it tastes better than any protein product I've ever tried. Two, in terms of the nutritionally complete aspect, it has the vitamin and minerals you need. It's about 100 calories, so it's incredibly light, but it also packs over 20 grams of protein into every serving. Try the salted caramel flavor. It is the bomb, and let me know how you get on.

Steven Bartlett 1:22:28 (page flips) Despite all of this, despite rising over and over again, your career continued on.

Bozoma Saint John 1:22:33 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:22:34 You worked at Endeavor, the company that own, like, the UFC and WWE, et cetera.

Bozoma Saint John 1:22:39 Yes, yes, yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:22:40 Um, Beats.

Bozoma Saint John 1:22:41 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:22:41 Uber, Netflix.

Bozoma Saint John 1:22:43 Mm-hmm. Apple.

Steven Bartlett 1:22:46 Apple.

Bozoma Saint John 1:22:46 Oh, yeah. All the things.

Steven Bartlett 1:22:51 It doesn't seem like there was a huge time for pause.

Bozoma Saint John 1:22:55 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 1:22:55 And for... You know? 'Cause you just seemed to get right back at it all the time.

Bozoma Saint John 1:23:00 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:23:01 I mean, that's what it appears when you look-

Bozoma Saint John 1:23:03 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:23:03 ... at the chronological nature of these events.

Bozoma Saint John 1:23:05 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:23:06 Um, how have all of these personal tragedies fed into your career?

Bozoma Saint John 1:23:12 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:23:13 And what role has your career continued to play in-

Bozoma Saint John 1:23:16 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:23:17 ... dealing with these personal tragedies?

Bozoma Saint John 1:23:19 Yeah, um. Well, I think especially Peter's death, um, made me impatient. Impatient is the wrong word, but it kind of feels like impatience with life, you know?

Steven Bartlett 1:23:35 Urgent?

Bozoma Saint John 1:23:35 Yes, urgent, for sure. (laughs) The urgent life. Um, because I just have a much better understanding of not wasting my time or my energy.

Steven Bartlett 1:23:51 When I look at your story and I see someone who doesn't hang around if they don't like something-

Bozoma Saint John 1:23:55 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:23:56 ... you know?

Bozoma Saint John 1:23:56 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:23:57 Um, and this kind of brings in another point, 'cause there's contri- contradictory career advice often we get. It says, you know-

Bozoma Saint John 1:24:02 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:24:02 ... you should stay somewhere long enough, because if you leave too quickly, then people-

Bozoma Saint John 1:24:05 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:24:05 ... are gonna look at your resume and think, "Why were you only there for two years?" Or, "Why were you only there"-

Bozoma Saint John 1:24:08 Right.

Steven Bartlett 1:24:08 ... "for a little while." But then if, you know... So like, where do you sit on this-

Bozoma Saint John 1:24:11 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:24:11 ... um-

Bozoma Saint John 1:24:12 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:24:12 ... on when to know to quit? And also, there's this overarching phrase, which is like, quitting is for losers.

Bozoma Saint John 1:24:16 Yes, yes, yes, yes. Ooh, gosh. Well, look, I get critis- criticism of that all the time. Where people are just like, "Oh, well she can't handle adversity."

Steven Bartlett 1:24:25 (laughs)

Bozoma Saint John 1:24:25 And I'm like, "Me? (laughs) Are you out of your mind?" It's like, if there was a poster child, it would be me.

Steven Bartlett 1:24:32 Mm-hmm.

Bozoma Saint John 1:24:32 It would be me. You know? No, it's not that I can't handle adversity. I just put myself first.

Steven Bartlett 1:24:39 Are you selfish?

Bozoma Saint John 1:24:40 Yes. Very much so. But that is not a bad thing. I am at the center of my life. No one is above me in my life. No one. Not even my kid. And she knows that. And I try to instill the same in her. No one should be above her in her life. Because the thing is that, like, look, the life that you're living is yours.And I cannot be a great contributor to society, and this sounds a little, like, counterintuitive, but I can't be a great contributor to society, I can't be a good friend, I can't even be a good mom if I am not living the life that I want to live. If I'm not wholly happy in it. So, absolutely, I'm selfish.

Steven Bartlett 1:25:23 When you left Uber, you're quoted as saying, "You don't need to be the savior," I think when referencing the state of the company, 'cause it was going through a very tumultuous time-

Bozoma Saint John 1:25:28 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:25:29 ... "You can