CMO Of Netflix: "Work Life Balance" Is BAD Advice! I Lost My Baby & My Husband!

In this episode, Steven sits down with the former CMO of Netflix and former Chief Brand Officer of Uber, Bozoma Saint John. 00:00 Intro 02:03 Early context 04:32 Your love for culture 09:31 Your Dad 11:36 What really gives us power in society 13:12 The start of your career 18:30 Deciding your destiny 25:58 The Sunday scaries 28:26 Why you shouldn't dismiss anyone 41:12 Receiving a call from an ex-boyfriend who was struggling 53:29 Finding love at work 01:00:47 Were you ready to be a mother? 01:06:35 Life after losing your baby 01:12:23 You and your partner separating 01:14:23 Your husband getting cancer 01:22:28 Continuing your career despite all your hardships 01:25:50 Career advice you wish you had when you started 01:30:00 How to be a great marketer 01:32:30 The last guest's question Are you ready to think like a CEO? Gain access to the 100 CEOs newsletter here: ⁠https://bit.ly/100-ceos-newsletter Bozoma’s Book: https://amzn.to/3spGeoZ Bozoma: Instagram - https://bit.ly/3s4kqi2 Website - https://bit.ly/3OMzeLd My new book! 'The 33 Laws Of Business & Life' pre order link: https://smarturl.it/DOACbook Join this channel to get access to perks: https://bit.ly/3Dpmgx5 Follow me: Instagram: http://bit.ly/3nIkGAZ Twitter: http://bit.ly/3ztHuHm Linkedin: https://bit.ly/41Fl95Q Telegram: http://bit.ly/3nJYxST Sponsors: Huel: https://g2ul0.app.link/G4RjcdKNKsb Zoe - http://joinzoe.com with an exclusive code CEO10 for 10% off Wework - http://we.co/ceoworks

Bozoma Saint JohnguestSteven Bartletthost

Aug 10, 20231h 35mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

150 min read · 30,007 words

0:00 – 2:03
Intro
1. BJBozoma Saint John
  If there's anything to know, it is that my world has burned a few times, and that I have risen every time.
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  Bozoma Saint John. Forbes' number one most influential marketing chief.
3. BJBozoma Saint John
  She's an international phenomenon. Has led marketing and branding at some of the biggest companies in the world.
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  Who have you worked for?
5. BJBozoma Saint John
  Apple, Netflix, Pepsi, Spike Lee. He was walking by with a script under his arm, and I took a red pen to it. I was a receptionist. I really did think I was getting fired that day. But intuition and creativity and following your gut made me be successful. Oftentimes, we're in these situations that aren't serving us, and we're thinking about how the other person's gonna feel. You are going to be unsatisfied with your life. That is the scariest thing. Be selfish in your life, in your career. I didn't want anything to stop me, but I was about five months pregnant when very quickly things descended into hell. I had a condition where the pregnancy is, like, attacking you. And the doctor says to my husband, Peter, "You save her or you save the baby. Which one is it?" She didn't survive. It was the beginning of the big fractures in our relationship. We were no longer a team.
6. SBSteven Bartlett
  A few years later, he gets diagnosed with cancer, after you've separated.
7. BJBozoma Saint John
  We had to make a choice to have the conversations which were about forgiveness. Anger and misunderstanding really did not matter. We're going to be together to the last heartbeat. (heart beating)
8. SBSteven Bartlett
  Before this episode starts, I have a small favor to ask from you. Two months ago, 74% of people that watched this channel didn't subscribe. We're now down to 69%. My goal is 50%. So, if you've ever liked any of the videos we've posted, if you like this channel, can you do me a quick favor and hit the subscribe button? It helps this channel more than you know. And the bigger the channel gets, as you've seen, the bigger the guests get. Thank you and enjoy this episode. (upbeat music)
2:03 – 4:32
Early context
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  Boz.
2. BJBozoma Saint John
  Yes?
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  You've overcome so much. You refer to yourself often as a phoenix.
4. BJBozoma Saint John
  Yes.
5. SBSteven Bartlett
  I've heard you describe yourself as that. So, take me back because there's a certain, there's a certain distinctive brilliance and character to you-
6. BJBozoma Saint John
  Mm.
7. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... that I know isn't acs- I know isn't common.
8. BJBozoma Saint John
  (laughs)
9. SBSteven Bartlett
  And that, that uniqueness is what makes you brilliant.
10. BJBozoma Saint John
  Mm.
11. SBSteven Bartlett
  So, take me right back to the beginning.
12. BJBozoma Saint John
  Mm.
13. SBSteven Bartlett
  What do I need to know about you to understand the person sat in front of me-
14. BJBozoma Saint John
  Mm.
15. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... going right back to the start?
16. BJBozoma Saint John
  Oh, gosh. Well, as a phoenix, there isn't just one rising, you know, for me. So, if there's anything to know, it is that my world has burned a few times, and that I have risen every time. Now, I wouldn't say that, like, I rise right away. (laughs)
17. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
18. BJBozoma Saint John
  It's not that kind of miracle. It's the dusting off. It's the letting the feathers grow back. It is the, "Can I fly again? Let me try. Ooh, this really hurts. Let me sit down, try one more time, and then, whoosh, I'm off." You know, so that means that it's everything from being, you know, five years old and living in Ghana, and my father being in politics, and the government being overthrown in political, a political coup, uh, and having to uproot ourselves out of Ghana. I mean, that, my whole world burned at that point. Or it is when I was 12, and we had lived in numerous places in Africa, and then moved to Colorado Springs, Colorado. And again, the world shifted and burned, and I'd have to recreate myself.
19. SBSteven Bartlett
  Those first 12 years-
20. BJBozoma Saint John
  Mm-hmm.
21. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... when you look back on the most significant fingerprints they left on you and your character, what are those?
22. BJBozoma Saint John
  Hmm. Um, probably my ability to survive, like get to know people quickly, understand who is a friend and who's a foe quickly. Like, being able to read people, I would say almost immediately. I don't need a lot of proof, you know. I can tell on, like, the first question-
23. SBSteven Bartlett
  (laughs)
24. BJBozoma Saint John
  ... (laughs) whether or not you have good intentions for me.
25. SBSteven Bartlett
  Do I have good intentions for you?
26. BJBozoma Saint John
  Yes.
27. SBSteven Bartlett
  Okay, good. (laughs)
28. BJBozoma Saint John
  (laughs)
4:32 – 9:31
Your love for culture
1. BJBozoma Saint John
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  Your desire to, um, be able to relate to the person in front of you-
3. BJBozoma Saint John
  Mm-hmm.
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... is, is that also linked to... Because I- it was clear when I was reading about your story that you had a very early love of culture-
5. BJBozoma Saint John
  Yeah.
6. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... and just, like, what's going on in the world.
7. BJBozoma Saint John
  Yeah.
8. SBSteven Bartlett
  Like, you know?
9. BJBozoma Saint John
  Yeah. But that was survival. It wasn't, that wasn't, um... You know this battle of, like, nature versus nurture?
10. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
11. BJBozoma Saint John
  I think I have some of it naturally, my curiosity about people and the things that surround me in pop culture. Um, but it was certainly nurtur- nurtured, you know, this idea of like, "Well, I have to understand everything that's happening in this society, so I can talk to you, so I can seem normal to you." You know? So that meant that like, okay, I have to understand American football inside and out. Friday Night Lights were a big deal in Colorado, so I need to understand what's happening in the field, so I don't annoy people with cheering at the wrong time. (laughs)
12. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
13. BJBozoma Saint John
  Or music, understanding what was happening at the time and being able to sing along to lyrics or argue with somebody in the hallway about my favorite pop star, you know. Or fashion, make sure that the crease on my jeans was perfect or the way I folded it over and doubled it up was right. You know, all of those things are nurtured. And so it created a lifelong student of pop culture. So, it means that every time...... that something new would happen, oh, I'd be the first on it. I'd be the one who'd be like, "Oh, let me figure out what that is. I need to understand all of it, because should I be in a situation where I'm in front of somebody who really likes that thing, I wanna be able to talk to them. I wanna be able for them to understand that I understand what they're talking about. I'm not so strange."
14. SBSteven Bartlett
  And that, that s- explains in large part why you pursued creativity and marketing, or at least why you ended up there. But-
15. BJBozoma Saint John
  Mm-hmm.
16. SBSteven Bartlett
  Do, do you think it's hard to be yourself when you're trying to survive?
17. BJBozoma Saint John
  Hmm. Yeah, I think so.
18. SBSteven Bartlett
  Were you being yourself as you reflect on that chapter of your life, the pre-A Team?
19. BJBozoma Saint John
  Left to my own devices, I probably wouldn't have. I probably would've turned out to be too much a people pleaser. But thankfully, I had a mother who was... Well, both my parents, but my mother in particular was very focused on making sure that all of us girls, I have three younger sisters, understood our worth and the way that we contribute, you know. So, in the process... So imagine I'm 12.
20. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
21. BJBozoma Saint John
  And I'm here trying to understand all the American things.
22. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
23. BJBozoma Saint John
  (laughs) And I come home and I've finally broken through the inner circle of the cool girls, and they've now said they wanna come over to my house.
24. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
25. BJBozoma Saint John
  And here I am in front of my mother, my very Ghanaian, very proud mother, and I'm saying, "I'm gonna need you (laughs) to buy some pizza, get some Fanta up in here, okay? Like, french fries, I don't know what it is. Get all the American foods. Chicken nuggets, the things they like." And she's like, "Uh, absolutely not. (laughs) They're going to eat fufu. They're gonna have some pepper soup. They're gonna eat with their hands because that's what we do in this house." And I'm sitting there like, "Oh, you've got to be kidding my whol- Like are you, like you wanna destroy me? Like I'm just learning how to get along with these people." You know? And the lesson there... And by the way, she didn't, she wasn't, like, cryptic about it. She was very direct, very straightforward, and she was like, "When you go to their house, you do the things they want to do. When they come to your house, they do the things you want to do." She was, did not mince words. And at 12 she said that. Maybe I couldn't have articulated it then, but I certainly understand it very clearly now, which is that I had to understand my own worth, like what am I bringing to the table. Not just about what they have and what they're trying to do and they're trying to communicate, but what is it that I'm bringing? So that the pride I have in my own culture, in my own skin, in my own uniqueness is as important as the things that they like.
26. SBSteven Bartlett
  Regardless of apparent consequence?
27. BJBozoma Saint John
  Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
28. SBSteven Bartlett
  Because throughout the, whether it's the corporate world or our professional lives-
29. BJBozoma Saint John
  Yeah.
30. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... there's always an apparent consequence which holds us back from-
9:31 – 11:36
Your Dad
1. BJBozoma Saint John
  week (laughs) you know. He's like-
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  What's, what's he like?
3. BJBozoma Saint John
  Oh, my dad, oh my God. He is the type of person who absorbs information and holds it and then can spit it back at you. He doesn't need a lot of time to understand concepts or things. I mean, he's a self-taught musician. He didn't go to high school. He didn't go to middle school or high school but has two PhDs. And my dad, um, has very, very high standards (laughs) . So, that is the person (laughs) that I grew up with.
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  What impression did he give you about what success was and looked like? And that, and also, in doing so-
5. BJBozoma Saint John
  Mm-hmm.
6. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... what failure was?
7. BJBozoma Saint John
  Success meant financial independence and financial success, you know. You needed to make a certain amount of money in order to have the nice things, you know, the nice house, the nice car, the vacations, all the things. Um, success also meant big titles, you know. So early on in my career, um, I remember wanting to take a job that had a lesser title than the one I was leaving, and my dad hated that. You know, he was just like, "Huh, wha- But you're taking steps backwards." And my thought was like, "Well, it's not really because the responsibilities are different and better-
8. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
9. BJBozoma Saint John
  ... and they're gonna get me closer to the place I wanna go. You don't understand that, but I understand that." But to him, that was failure. And so, that certainly changed the way that I think about, you know, my own upward mobility, that for some time I did chase titles, you know. But the truth of matter is that a title isn't going to give you power. You know, a title doesn't actually give you anything (laughs) . You know, it's like, what I've learned about leadership is that you have to convince the people who are around you that you are right, that you have a good idea, and that they should input into that thing, and then they will follow you. You think just because you have a chief title that somebody's
11:36 – 13:12
What really gives us power in society
1. BJBozoma Saint John
  gonna follow you or not think you're stupid? (laughs) There, there are plenty of people out there who have, you know, that title and teams who don't respect them. And so for me, I think those early lessons were... They have their good things and their bad things, you know.
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
3. BJBozoma Saint John
  And the good things were that me understanding that, um, my dad's understanding of what success looked like in terms of titles was not necessarily the only way.
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  What does give you power then? So if, if the title doesn't give you power, what does give you power?
5. BJBozoma Saint John
  Influence. Influence.You know, being ... Well, there's a couple of things, because that's a really complicated question. It's like talent alone doesn't do it. Again, met many talented people who couldn't lead anybody, (laughs) you know?
6. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
7. BJBozoma Saint John
  And you have many leaders who have no talent, so it's like a, it's a interesting combination of those two things. Like, you have to be able to be on the ground and do the work.
8. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
9. BJBozoma Saint John
  You also have to convince other people, so that's where the influence comes in. That the idea that you have, or the way that you're saying we should go is the right thing, and then get them to follow you, and then you must execute. Like, you actually have to be right.
10. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm. Yeah.
11. BJBozoma Saint John
  You know? And then if you do that enough times, oh, then it becomes unquestionable. You know? That's when the reputation precedes you. That's when, you know, at least for me, it's like I get into a new job and people expect a certain thing. It's like, "Oh, I've seen you do that over there," or, "I had a friend who worked for you at this place and they said you did..."
12. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
13:12 – 18:30
The start of your career
1. SBSteven Bartlett
2. BJBozoma Saint John
  You know?
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  Your first sort of b- s- real significant career move seemed to be this encounter with Spike Lee's agency.
4. BJBozoma Saint John
  Yeah, yeah.
5. SBSteven Bartlett
  So for people that don't know, who is Spike Lee?
6. BJBozoma Saint John
  Okay.
7. SBSteven Bartlett
  And how did that happen?
8. BJBozoma Saint John
  (laughs) Spike Lee is blackety, blackety, black (laughs) , first of all.
9. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
10. BJBozoma Saint John
  All the blackness. Uh, no, but he, he is a, um, film director really, at his core. Filmmaker, let's call it that, because he certainly produces and does other things and writes. Um, but he has a, an advertising agency in New York. Uh, when I was there, it was on Madison Avenue. So Madison Avenue is like the place for advertising in the world, right? It's, um, the place where the show Mad Men was made from. So DDB is one of the biggest agencies and Spike had a JV with them.
11. SBSteven Bartlett
  What brought you to New York in the first place?
12. BJBozoma Saint John
  Um, (laughs) curiosity. I was ... I graduated from Wesleyan University, which was in Middletown, Connecticut, and, um, it was just time to apply to med school and I really didn't want to, and New York was right there. It was like an hour and a half from school, and I really didn't have a plan. You know, I just, I just went, trying to escape what I thought was my destiny. And like many people say, I think, sometimes in this business, I kinda fell into this. But I think my destiny actually came to find me. That's what it was. I opened up and allowed for something greater that I didn't even know was possible to find me instead.
13. SBSteven Bartlett
  So many people are in, in that chapter of their life where they're trying to find their destiny or trying to help-
14. BJBozoma Saint John
  Mm-hmm.
15. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... trying to f- figure out a way to let their destiny find them.
16. BJBozoma Saint John
  Yeah.
17. SBSteven Bartlett
  When you look back and connect the dots as to how your career came to be, and you think about that first moment where you, you know, you-
18. BJBozoma Saint John
  Mm.
19. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... went to New York, and then you're on Madison Avenue, you're working for Spike Lee and you find, you find your destiny or it finds you.
20. BJBozoma Saint John
  Mm.
21. SBSteven Bartlett
  If your, if your daughter, um, comes to you and says, "Mom, what advice have you got for me on finding my destiny?"
22. BJBozoma Saint John
  Mm-hmm.
23. SBSteven Bartlett
  Like, w- what have I got to do to actively bring it about?
24. BJBozoma Saint John
  Oh, man. Woo. Have you ever heard that statement, like, "Let go and let God"?
25. SBSteven Bartlett
  No.
26. BJBozoma Saint John
  Have you heard that before?
27. SBSteven Bartlett
  No.
28. BJBozoma Saint John
  It's a very Christian thing. I feel like in the, like, Black church, there is a lot of that. "Let go and let God." You know, as if God is just gonna just, "Bloop, bloop, bloop."
29. SBSteven Bartlett
  (laughs)
30. BJBozoma Saint John
  Sprinkle magic dust over you, you know? And I'm like, no, I don't, I don't necessarily believe that just as a plain statement. I think the letting go is an action. You know, it's not surrender. It's not like you just lay down and it's gonna find you. You're not gonna find your destiny sitting on the couch. You know, the letting go for me is like the letting go of preconceived ideas about what it is that you are going to do. (laughs)
18:30 – 25:58
Deciding your destiny
1. BJBozoma Saint John
  it's worked.
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  But, but do you believe... So there's a lot there for me.
3. BJBozoma Saint John
  Mm-hmm.
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  There's a lot that I'm interested in there. Do you believe... Because I wanna be clear-
5. BJBozoma Saint John
  Yeah.
6. SBSteven Bartlett
  Are, are you... 'Cause some people hear that and go, "Ha ha. L- love that. Everything happens for a reason."
7. BJBozoma Saint John
  Mm.
8. SBSteven Bartlett
  "I'm gonna chill-"
9. BJBozoma Saint John
  Mm-mm.
10. SBSteven Bartlett
  "... and my fate is prewritten and it's coming for me."
11. BJBozoma Saint John
  Mm. Mm!
12. SBSteven Bartlett
  Bo said all I gotta do is wait-
13. BJBozoma Saint John
  Mm! Mm! Mm!
14. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... and it's gonna... 'Cause everything happens-
15. BJBozoma Saint John
  Mm!
16. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... for a reason, it's prewritten, so I just gotta-
17. BJBozoma Saint John
  No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No!
18. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... play these tarot cards and I'm gonna- (laughs)
19. BJBozoma Saint John
  No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! This is when I start banging on the table. (laughs) No! No! No! No!
20. SBSteven Bartlett
  If I just chill here. (laughs)
21. BJBozoma Saint John
  No! No! No! No! No! No chilling here. Okay? (laughs) I think you're probably testing my energy. I'm not one of those chilling here type people anyway.
22. SBSteven Bartlett
  (laughs)
23. BJBozoma Saint John
  You know? Um, and I don't believe things are prewritten, actually. Like, for me, the idea of destiny isn't that something is already predetermined for you. I think you create your destiny, also. You know, meaning that, like, look, there was a movie in the, in the late 90s called Sliding Doors. Starred Gwyneth Paltrow. Um, the concept is basically, like, you know, if you're running for the train and you catch it, you know, you jump inside, you have one destiny. If the doors close and you still stand on platform the ne- you have to catch the next train, it takes you to a different destiny. That's the concept, right? It is what I also believe, which is that, like, my destiny is not prewritten, but the movements that I make are what lead me to the thing that's actually for me.
24. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm.
25. BJBozoma Saint John
  You know? And so it's a constant evolution. So I don't believe that you have to sit and wait for it. I think your constant movement, your constant discovery is actually what then brings the destiny to you. So this isn't about predetermined anything or just, like, let me just chill out on... Like I said, you can't sit on the couch and expect your destiny to come for you.
26. SBSteven Bartlett
  So it's not reading my horoscope-
27. BJBozoma Saint John
  No.
28. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... getting tarot cards and-
29. BJBozoma Saint John
  No disrespect to the tarot card readers. (laughs) But I do believe that we are constantly creating our destiny, you know, that this life that we're living, these experiences, the people we're meeting, the people you're in relationships with, ooh, it happens because there's a certain action that you take that leads you to that thing. Now, it's your choice whether or not you take it, and then that's when the whole intuition thing comes up for me, right? Because I'm like now, you may have caused a lot of action and then you have a couple of choices in front of you. Where are you going? Which one is calling you? And you know what people like to do. They wanna write pro and con lists, they wanna ask people for advice. "Ah, do you think I should do this or should I do that? Both of these look good." Why are you asking other people? They don't know. They're not, they're not living your life. They don't have the, the whole dest... They have their own thing. Like, why are you asking them? And if you got quiet for a second and heard your intuition... But then again sometimes people are scared, right? Because it's telling you do something that you probably don't wanna do. You're a little scared of it. And then you're gonna choose the wrong thing.
30. SBSteven Bartlett
  It's hard to hear your intuition when George is-
25:58 – 28:26
The Sunday scaries
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  turning."
2. BJBozoma Saint John
  Every time. You know, sometimes that shows up in the Sunday scaries?
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  Oh, my God, yeah.
4. BJBozoma Saint John
  It shows up there.
5. SBSteven Bartlett
  Yeah. We were having a conversation about this yester- not yesterday, was it? On Sunday, we were like-
6. BJBozoma Saint John
  Yeah.
7. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... "Isn't it strange that it's Monday tomorrow, none of us have, it's not crossed any of our minds?"
8. BJBozoma Saint John
  Exactly, or freaked out about it.
9. SBSteven Bartlett
  Yeah.
10. BJBozoma Saint John
  God, it's like, ugh, man, when I, when I started recognizing that Sunday scaries were tied to my wrong turns... (laughs)
11. SBSteven Bartlett
  (laughs)
12. BJBozoma Saint John
  Whoo, guess who jumped into the driver's seat real quick? Me. (laughs)
13. SBSteven Bartlett
  (laughs)
14. BJBozoma Saint John
  You know, it's like, look-
15. SBSteven Bartlett
  So true.
16. BJBozoma Saint John
  And again, we're not saying, we're not making light of it being like, "Oh, this is so easy, just change direction." You know?
17. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
18. BJBozoma Saint John
  But it's so helpful when you recognize it and then you're like, "Oh, okay."
19. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
20. BJBozoma Saint John
  "Now I can do something about this." You know, it's like, right, isn't that the first step of, like, any problem solving, is to recognize the problem? Yeah.
21. SBSteven Bartlett
  As, don't you think life ha- like, Sunday scaries is a signal.
22. BJBozoma Saint John
  Oh, man, I'm telling.
23. SBSteven Bartlett
  And it's a signal-
24. BJBozoma Saint John
  Whoo.
25. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... and it's a very important signal-
26. BJBozoma Saint John
  Mm.
27. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... and it's screaming at you.
28. BJBozoma Saint John
  Mm. So loud, so loud. And the thing is that, the thing about Sunday scaries in relationship to anything in your life, um, when you are in a relationship, let's say romantic, and you have to go hang out with that person, and you're not feeling so cute about it, mm, might be time for you to reevaluate (laughs) -
29. SBSteven Bartlett
  (laughs)
30. BJBozoma Saint John
  ... whether or not this relationship is good for you. You know? It's like-
28:26 – 41:12
Why you shouldn't dismiss anyone
1. BJBozoma Saint John
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  There's s- so many, throughout your experience of arriving in New York and then working with Spike Lee and-
3. BJBozoma Saint John
  Mm-hmm.
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... um, there's so many really interesting moments that I, sort of categorize and provide clues as to how you got here today. One of those early moments was when you were in New York and Spike Lee puts the, the script on your desk.
5. BJBozoma Saint John
  Mm, yes.
6. SBSteven Bartlett
  Because that is for me, that is for me a really clear, it was like a f- like a fork in the road, you coulda done one thing-
7. BJBozoma Saint John
  Mm-hmm.
8. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... or another thing.
9. BJBozoma Saint John
  Mm-hmm.
10. SBSteven Bartlett
  And the choice you made in that seems to be quite pivotal. Can you tell me about that?
11. BJBozoma Saint John
  Yes. So, interestingly, it wasn't just that he put the script on the desk, he was walking by with the script under his arm, and as I shared, I'm, you know, I love to read, and I know that Spike writes with a very Black point of view about the African American experience, and I was fascinated by that. And so as soon as I saw it I was like, "Oh, uh, I mean, this must be something interesting that he's either writing or reading, I wanna, I wanna be part of it."
12. SBSteven Bartlett
  And what was your job there at the time?
13. BJBozoma Saint John
  I was the assistant. Actually, not even the assistant, I was, I was answering the phone. I was a receptionist-
14. SBSteven Bartlett
  Okay.
15. BJBozoma Saint John
  ... at his agency. A temporary receptionist. I didn't even have the job yet, I was only filling in, and, um, but it felt... There was a little bit of naivete in it, you know, in that, like, I don't know if 15 years ago even, if I saw Spike walking past my desk, I would've been like, "Hey, what are you reading? Can I read that?" 'Cause I would've used all my logic to say, "Oh, he's so important, whatever he's holding there he needs, he's not going to give it to you, so why even ask?" I probably would've explained it to myself that way. By the time there was a little bit of that, uh, naivete, brashness (laughs) , arrogance even, you know, where I was just like, "Oh, whatever he's reading I wanna read." And so that's what I asked him, just said, "What do you have?"... you know, and he said, he said his script for Bamboozled. And I was like, "Okay, well, can I read it?" And he looked at me incredulously and he was like, "Sure, here you go. Have it back to me in three days and let me know what you think." And of course, he had a smirk on his face and so did the office, everybody who overheard the conversation, and I really didn't understand what that meant. But of course, in hindsight, I understood that it was such a complicated piece of writing that he probably didn't think I would finish it, one, or have anything to add. And I took a red pen to it, a literal red pen. He likes to tell the story now that, like, you know, he gave this receptionist his (laughs) script and I came back three days later with markups and notes in the margins. He said, "You know, I think that this dialogue here could be flushed out a little bit. I didn't understand what happened between these two characters." You know, and he was just like, "Pfft, what? You marked up my script?" And I was just like, "Oh God, I didn't, I didn't know." Man, I thought, I really did think I was getting fired that day. And, uh, he went into his office, slammed the door. I sat there. Man, I'm telling you, I had my purse with me and I was just sitting there waiting for him to open up the office so that he could tell me I was fired. And meanwhile, I'm thinking in the back of my head, "My dad's gonna kill me because I'm not even supposed to be in this job. I have a college degree. Why am I a receptionist at this office anyway?" And then he opened the door after what felt like 17 hours. It was probably just, you know, 30 minutes. (laughs) And that's when I got the job. He was like, "You made some good notes. You should stay."
16. SBSteven Bartlett
  How old were you?
17. BJBozoma Saint John
  22.
18. SBSteven Bartlett
  So you're 22 and you, um, take a red pen to-
19. BJBozoma Saint John
  (laughs)
20. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... one of the most famous film directors-
21. BJBozoma Saint John
  Mm-hmm.
22. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... work.
23. BJBozoma Saint John
  Yeah.
24. SBSteven Bartlett
  And that gets you the job?
25. BJBozoma Saint John
  Yes.
26. SBSteven Bartlett
  What, what's the lesson there?
27. BJBozoma Saint John
  Oh, it changed my entire life. Oh, that changed my entire life. I've had a few inflection points in my life. That is absolutely one of them. Without that moment, I don't know, and maybe at some other point I would have learned it, maybe it would have come to me anyway. Um, but I'm so glad it came to me then, that there is no one who knows more about anything than you do. It just doesn't exist. Like, look, I'm not saying you should go ahead and try to do, like, open heart surgery. (laughs)
28. SBSteven Bartlett
  No. Yeah.
29. BJBozoma Saint John
  Maybe don't do that, you know?
30. SBSteven Bartlett
  Okay.
41:12 – 53:29
Receiving a call from an ex-boyfriend who was struggling
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  But go, so that time when you're working in New York, what, you're working with Spike at his agency.
2. BJBozoma Saint John
  Mm-hmm.
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  I read you took a phone call from an ex-boyfriend at college who was-
4. BJBozoma Saint John
  Mm-hmm.
5. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... in a difficult moment in his life.
6. BJBozoma Saint John
  Yeah.
7. SBSteven Bartlett
  What did he say on the phone? What can you share?
8. BJBozoma Saint John
  You know, I think this is the part about like when, when you think about things that you would do over.
9. SBSteven Bartlett
  Yeah.
10. BJBozoma Saint John
  You know, the ways that you would have reacted differently and torture yourself about it. I do that now still, even though I've been through a lot of therapy. (laughs) Even though I know that, um, the outcome probably would've been the same at a different time. You know, he suffered from, uh, from mental illness that I obviously couldn't diagnose. You know, we were in a romantic relationship that now, of course, looking back was, was toxic. I didn't know how to help him. And eventually, he decided to end his life by suicide. And I blamed myself for a long time. To some degree, I still do.... you know, wishing that I had said something different, wishing that I had known better to ask for help, um, wishing I'd just been a better friend or girlfriend, you know. And even now, um, I remember writing a post on Instagram when someone famous died by suicide and, um, you know, there were all of the things that people say. They're like, "Oh, you never know what somebody's dealing with." Or like b- you know, or like, "Call this line if, you know, you're thinking these thoughts." And all I could, like, uh, the only way I could react to it was just like, but the people who are around that person, feels like the guilt you feel, the terrible burden you carry for the rest of your life, like, what do those people do? It was like, what- what hotline is- exists for them? You know, how do you manage that feeling? It is a sort of survivor's guilt to some degree. You know, I feel the same about people who are survivors of a loved one's terminal illness. We never talk about those people. You know, you always talk about the person who's suffering. And I'm not saying we shouldn't. I'm just saying that we have to consider the entire circle of people, you know, and how do you give advice, help, (sighs) relieve the guilt, the sadness, the grief, the regret? All of those things. And it is still something that I- I deal with in terms of many different types of griefs I've had in my life.
11. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mental health and mental- mental illness-
12. BJBozoma Saint John
  Mm-hmm.
13. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... has become increasingly, um, discussed in society-
14. BJBozoma Saint John
  Yeah. Mm-hmm.
15. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... in the last 10- 5, 10 years.
16. BJBozoma Saint John
  Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
17. SBSteven Bartlett
  When I was a kid, I didn't-
18. BJBozoma Saint John
  Oh, yeah. No, nobody talked about it. No. Of course.
19. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... know what it was. I didn't know it was a thing.
20. BJBozoma Saint John
  (laughs)
21. SBSteven Bartlett
  Um, uh, now it's very popular in conversation. D- did- had he made any indications that he was suffering and could he- could he articulate-
22. BJBozoma Saint John
  Yeah. Yeah.
23. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... that he had mental health challenges?
24. BJBozoma Saint John
  Um, yes. I mean, he was on medication.
25. SBSteven Bartlett
  Right, okay.
26. BJBozoma Saint John
  So he knew he was- he had challenges. Um, but- and look, I was- I was clinically depressed as well, I was on medication (laughs) . We were- we were both on medication, you know. Um, and the challenge with having any mental illness is that sometimes you know how you're diagnosed and you know that you have to take medication for it, but maybe you don't feel like you're ill. And he was an artist, a musician, and so sometimes as a creative, that gets confused, right? 'Cause you're just like, "Oh, but I need my angst in order to create." You know, "I pull from this deep, dark well, and that's where my artistry comes from." And he would say stuff all the time, you know. He would be impassioned about, you know, it's like, "Well, none of it is worth it." You know, "If this- if this doesn't work, I don't know what I'm gonna do." You know, or like, would be so dependent on me for his own happiness. You know, things I did would set him off or not. You know, so then you are tied to that person's ups and downs, even though it has nothing to do with you, right? And again, like, look, I've had a lot of therapy to talk about this, and so I can articulate it, but it doesn't change the way that you really feel about it.
27. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
28. BJBozoma Saint John
  You know, I can academically talk about it and say, "Ah, well, you know, he behaved this way and therefore I behave this way." Right? we were like a tit for tat type situation. But when you're in it, all you wanna do is to protect that person. You know, all I wanted to do was keep Ben up. That's all. By any means necessary, you know. So if it meant that I had to stay on the phone for six hours, that's what I had to do. If I had to miss my own meetings and calls and friends and dinners and- no- then that's what I had to do.
29. SBSteven Bartlett
  Did- did he call you-
30. BJBozoma Saint John
  Yes.
53:29 – 1:00:47
Finding love at work
1. BJBozoma Saint John
  They don't know.
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  You found love in Peter-
3. BJBozoma Saint John
  Yes.
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... at work.
5. BJBozoma Saint John
  Yes (laughs) . You know, interest-
6. SBSteven Bartlett
  You weren't interested in him at first?
7. BJBozoma Saint John
  No.
8. SBSteven Bartlett
  (laughs)
9. BJBozoma Saint John
  (laughs)
10. SBSteven Bartlett
  What changed?
11. BJBozoma Saint John
  Uh, what changed? (laughs)
12. SBSteven Bartlett
  Why weren't you interested in him?
13. BJBozoma Saint John
  I mean, if I had that answer, like, we could solve all of love's riddles, right?
14. SBSteven Bartlett
  (laughs)
15. BJBozoma Saint John
  Like-
16. SBSteven Bartlett
  Do you know what's really interesting? Earlier on when you talked about let go and let God-
17. BJBozoma Saint John
  Uh-huh.
18. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... it really struck me as a relationship metaphor as well-
19. BJBozoma Saint John
  Mm-hmm.
20. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... because we go through life thinking, "I want brunette with this size this-"
21. BJBozoma Saint John
  Yes.
22. SBSteven Bartlett
  "... and that, and da, da, da, and I'm gonna, um..." And we, we're not, we're too... We got our blinkers on and we're too narrow-
23. BJBozoma Saint John
  Right.
24. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... for all the great-
25. BJBozoma Saint John
  Oh.
26. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... people that might come along.
27. BJBozoma Saint John
  Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
28. SBSteven Bartlett
  Like, you might have met your husband or wife already-
29. BJBozoma Saint John
  Mm!
30. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... but you were just so-
1:00:47 – 1:06:35
Were you ready to be a mother?
1. SBSteven Bartlett
2. BJBozoma Saint John
  Yes.
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  Okay. Yeah, quickly. Very quick.
4. BJBozoma Saint John
  Yeah, yeah.
5. SBSteven Bartlett
  And you fall pregnant in 2000...
6. BJBozoma Saint John
  2008 for the first time.
7. SBSteven Bartlett
  08?
8. BJBozoma Saint John
  Mm-hmm.
9. SBSteven Bartlett
  Were you ready, whatever that means, to be a mother at that point?
10. BJBozoma Saint John
  No. No, no, no, no, no, no. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I didn't even think I wanted to be a mother.
11. SBSteven Bartlett
  Ever?
12. BJBozoma Saint John
  No. I wasn't sure that I did. You know, I was, I was in... My career had just begun to like, s- you know, climb in a way that was very visible to me.
13. SBSteven Bartlett
  You were working at Pepsi at this point?
14. BJBozoma Saint John
  Yes, I was working at Pepsi and having really good success. Uh, and I was, (sighs) I mean, influenced by all of the societal pressures that women have in the workplace, you know? That's like, "Look, if you have a baby, it's gonna slow down your career. Um, people will look at you differently. You know, maybe your attentions are going to shift." And so you thought you were ambitious about your career, but let a baby come along, and now all of a sudden you want the baby, you don't want the career. I, I didn't, I didn't want anything to stop me from the ambition of getting to the top, you know? And also, I was just like, "I'm having a good time. I just don't wanna be responsible for anybody else." And I found out I was pregnant and I cried.
15. SBSteven Bartlett
  You cried?
16. BJBozoma Saint John
  Oh.
17. SBSteven Bartlett
  What kind of tears?
18. BJBozoma Saint John
  No, like the fugly tears. Like, the tears that make you vomit type tears. The tears that when I called my mom to tell her, she was like, "Stop crying." (laughs) You know? The tears that Peter didn't know how to react to because he was so excited. He was s- he was elated. And, uh, you know, I was thinking, "This is awful." You know? It's like, "I don't wanna be pregnant." And how do you actually say that when, you know, at that point, we'd been married for almost five years. We were like coming up on our fifth anniversary. I had a great job, he had a great job, we had a beautiful apartment in Manhattan. It's like, why wouldn't you... You know? It's like everything seems perfect, right? It's like, no one could look at me and say, "Oh, you're in a tough situation. You shouldn't have a baby." You know? It felt selfish to say I didn't want to be pregnant, to become a mother, and I, pff, I went into it under duress, (laughs) you know? I actually don't think that, um, women especially, I don't think women talk about that enough. You know? It's like the society's pressure of like becoming a mother at a certain stage in life, or that if you become a mother and you don't want to be, even when things are perfect, uh, that that can also feel like failure or feel like a trap. It's like somehow you're supposed to get pregnant and then start glowing immediately. You know? Start feeling like all the motherly feels. I didn't feel any of that. I didn't want it. And to be totally candid and transparent, it wasn't until I was about five months pregnant when there was the first sign that something might be wrong with my pregnancy, that all of a sudden it was like whatever that instinct was that was supposed to kick in when I found out I was pregnant, it kicked, it kicked in at that point. You know? It's like I went from being someone who was very cavalier about the pregnancy and trying to think about like, "Oh, I gotta get my snap back. Like how am I gonna get my six pack back after this is done?" You know, I went from that person to the like, "Well, what do you mean that there's like low amniotic fluid? What does that mean exactly? C- Is the, is the baby okay? Like, is, is this little homie growing?" Or like, "Let me hear the heartbeat again." You know? It's like I, it was, it was really that moment that did it. And very quickly, things descended into hell. I discovered that I had a condition called preeclampsia. It's essentially when your blood pressure rises in your body 'cause your body acts like the pregnancy is like attacking you. And so every cell begins to fight against the pregnancy. Um, I was forced to deliver the baby early, and she didn't survive. And it was... You know, for someone who had not wanted to be pregnant, it was extraordinarily devastating. I think it was a combination of things. You know? It's like I had begun to developed all the protectiveness of motherhood. You know, very much like I felt in Ben's death, I thought, "How could I have been a better mother to this unborn person?" You know? What was my failure in taking care of myself so that I could have a healthy child? (sighs) And, uh, again, the similarities are parallel where it's like, look, there's, there's nothing I could've done better.
19. SBSteven Bartlett
  The aftermath of that-
20. BJBozoma Saint John
  Mm-hmm.
21. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... of losing Eve?
22. BJBozoma Saint John
  Yes.
23. SBSteven Bartlett
  Take, take me into that moment. What was that, what was th- your life
1:06:35 – 1:12:23
Life after losing your baby
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  like in that moment?
2. BJBozoma Saint John
  Hmm. I don't... Oh gosh, how do I even articulate it? I don't know that there is, um, a word to describe...... the combination of, like, grief over something or someone lost that you really n- never had, you know, with a combination of anger, raw, fierce anger at God for this situation, at Peter for having made the choice in the moment of crisis when I'm sitting there and in the bed and the blood pressure's going up and I'm delirious. And the doctor says, you know, "There's only one choice here. You save her or you save the baby. Which one is it" And Peter says, "We'll save my wife." And I was pissed because, again, the, whatever that thing is that clicked in my head that said protect the life that is coming first, I was like, "No, you should have chosen that one. I've already lived. I've already lived. You should've chosen her."
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  You said that to him?
4. BJBozoma Saint John
  Yes. Yes. It was the beginning of the, some of the big fractures in our relationship, that moment. You know, and then also feeling like an utter failure 'cause it's like, pfft, I mean, women since the beginning of time have had babies, apparently easily. My mom had four. (laughs) You know? It's like, uh, uh, stolen Africans were having freaking babies in fields with no epidurals or childcare. And here I was living a very lavish lifestyle, having an OB-GYN that worked out of the Upper East Side of Manhattan, and I couldn't even do that. Ugh. All of those feelings were so raw and combined. And then on top of it, my almost debilitating drive to be successful at it. You know? It's like, again, we just go back to some childhood things that said, "Well, look, I've gotta, I've gotta do the thing. I've gotta be the best at the thing," right? It's like, so now, okay, this has happened. I have all of these terrible, scary emotions that are going on, but I'm gonna be a mom. Eh, clearly that's what I set out to do. So, now I've gotta do it. And so three months after Eve died, I got pregnant. By the way, my doctor, Pete, everybody was like, "Absolutely not." Like, "This is not a good idea." Nah, pfft. My therapist, everybody. I was like, "I don't care. I'm gonna do it." Not necessarily because... And this is a difficult thing to say. It's, it's not because I necessarily want to be a mother. I wanted to do it successfully. I wanted to prove to myself, to my body that I could do it, you know? That, like... Oh, and I, I wanted to, like, yell at God and be like, "Tuh (laughs) . Like, did you take this away because I said I didn't want it? Well, okay. Now, now I want it, so let's do it." You know? And even when I got sick again with my second pregnancy, I was like, "Look, I'm gonna do everything." Man, I consumed so many prenatal vitamins, boy. Look. (laughs) I, I would take 'em by, like, the palmful and be like, umph. You know? And there wasn't... I got a specialist. I had... I was taking, uh, Lovenox. For anybody who knows, it's like, you know, this blood thinner that I would have to inject into my belly every single day. Man, I was the most obedient pregnant woman you ever seen in your life. And I still got sick seven months into my pregnancy. Still with all of that. And so again, it's like, look, sometimes there are (sighs) situations that you cannot control. Like, very much like Ben. Like, he would have chosen to end his life at some point, with or without my love, with or without me answering the phone. I was going to get ill (laughs) with or without the prenatals, with or without a specialist. Those are not controllable by me. But I was still trying my best to be successful, to do it well. And when Lael was born, she came out screaming. And I took one look at that girl, and I was like, "Tsk. Yeah. You and I, we're gonna make it." Like, "You... Whoo. (laughs) You came here by any means necessary, and I am going to love you, like, fiercely, deeply," 'cause it just took too much to get her here.
1:12:23 – 1:14:23
You and your partner separating
1. BJBozoma Saint John
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  A year after Lael's birth, I believe, Peter and you separated?
3. BJBozoma Saint John
  Yeah.
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  Connected to all of that?
5. BJBozoma Saint John
  Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Connected to all of that. I mean, I think there's... You know, traumas in our life, of course, and especially I think for a married couple, and again, for us, you know, it's like, Peter really wants to be a father. I wasn't sure I want to be a mother. We get pregnant. Terrible things happen in the pregnancy. We lose Eve. I blame him entirely (laughs) and God, you know? Um, he becomes...... o- obsessed with my health in my next pregnancy. He does not want me to get pregnant. I'm like, "I'm going to, with or without your consent." No, I'm kidding. But it's became a battlefield in our home and in our relationship. We were no longer a team.
6. SBSteven Bartlett
  What was missing?
7. BJBozoma Saint John
  Probably empathy. I can probably just narrow it down to that. Like, a very shallow understanding of what the other person was going through. It's- it's remarkable to me now to think about it, you know? It's like, how do two people who love each other so desperately go through the same event and cannot grieve together, can't see the other one's grief? How is that even possible? You know?
8. SBSteven Bartlett
  Just a few years later, he gets diagnosed with cancer-
9. BJBozoma Saint John
  Mm-hmm.
10. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... after you've separated.
11. BJBozoma Saint John
  Yeah.
12. SBSteven Bartlett
  These moments in life can have a interesting influence on our perspective-
13. BJBozoma Saint John
  Mm-hmm.
14. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... how we feel about somebody-
15. BJBozoma Saint John
  Mm.
16. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... and the situation. How did it influence your perspective, his diagnosis?
1:14:23 – 1:22:28
Your husband getting cancer
1. SBSteven Bartlett
2. BJBozoma Saint John
  Peter was the type of person who never got sick, you know? He'd walk around Manhattan in wintertime with, like, a windbreaker. (laughs) You know, he didn't get colds. He just didn't get sick. Uh, and even in our separation, um, and we had then agreed to get divorced, um, he was always very, like, valiant, you know? He just was not a person who fell. (laughs) I don't know how else to describe it, you know? That he just wasn't... He was just tall and big and just barreled through life. And for him to be diagnosed that way, with Burkitt's lymphoma, which is a cancer that is not curable, but at the time, you know, his oncologist were like, "Okay, you're gonna do radiation, you're gonna do chemo." You know, there's no surgery, really, because it just attacks the lymph nodes everywhere. And there's no way to get rid of all the tumors, so the best thing to do is try to shrink them and hopefully they go away. Okay. I mean, who, you know... We didn't know any better. But by the time his cancer was deemed terminal, uh, all of the anger and misunderstanding and battles (laughs) over the different events in our life really did not matter. They did not matter. And I realized that, like, you know, that probably sounds so corny to say and maybe feels like a throwaway thing that like, "Oh, when you're faced with, you know, the finality of life, you just realize that, you know, you let go of da, da, da." No, no, no, no, no, it's not, it's not automatic like that. You have to make a choice. We had to make a choice. He had to ask me the question for us to reconcile. I had to decide that that is what we're going to do. We had to make a choice to have the conversations which were about forgiveness. We had to make the choice to look at every day and say, "Okay, well, what are we gonna do today that is gonna prepare us for the end?"
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  You recount a kiss you had with him, a kiss of forgiveness.
4. BJBozoma Saint John
  Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, it was, um... It was unlike the first kiss. You know, the first kiss where it's like the butterflies and you're not sure how much pressure to apply and, you know, should I open my mouth a little bit? Should I give him a little tongue or no? You know? Like, it wasn't that kiss. It was the kiss of knowing 13 years have gone by in a very complicated relationship full of the challenges of being an interracial couple and him understanding my experience or not, me understanding his experience and not. You know, the challenges of health and our parents getting sick and, oh, all of the things, my ambition for my career, his, you know, lack of understanding of that. It was just all of the things, you know? And to be in that moment and then to say, "Okay, we're- we're going to be together until the end because that's what we promised." You know? And to truly kiss and make up, I think that's another, like, casual statement people say, you know, kiss and make up. It's like, no, no, you, like... That covenant of like, "We are in this again to the end and I won't leave."
5. SBSteven Bartlett
  And you didn't leave?
6. BJBozoma Saint John
  No. To the end. To the last heartbeat.
7. SBSteven Bartlett
  H- how do you say goodbye to someone?
8. BJBozoma Saint John
  Oh. You know, I don't know that you do. I haven't. You know, there's, um... Oh, there is the physical loss, of course.... right? And grief in that is complicated also, you know, because, no, I can't pick up the phone and call him, or he can't, I can't see his wide smile at something I did, or his scowl if I do something wrong, you know? Um, I have multiple griefs of that. I have grief that Lielle will never know her dad in the way that I wish she knew him.
9. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
10. BJBozoma Saint John
  You know? He, like, so desperately wanted to be a father, and he loved her so deeply that sh- I, I grieve for her in that not knowing. But there is also, for me, the understanding that he really is still around. (laughs) This is where it's like, everybody's like, "Uh-oh." (laughs) "She sees dead people." (laughs) And I'm like, "Sort of." You know? Because I do believe in, like, the signs and wonders of things. It's happened too many times for me not to. You know? And it's, um, it feels very much like my intuition, you know? Where I'm just like, "Uh-oh." You know? "I know what he would have thought about X, Y, and Z thing. I know, I already know." You know? And so to some degree, it's like, I still feel his presence because I am aware of how he would be if he were here. (page flips)
11. SBSteven Bartlett
  Quick one. You guys know that for years now, my office has quite literally been everywhere. On a plane, in the back of my car, in a terminal in an airport, or on a train. You name it, I've probably worked there. Ever since I started my first business at 19 years old, I've been working on the move. All I need is wifi, a desk, and my headphones, and I'm set. And one of the places that has always had my back when I'm struggling to find an office is WeWork. I've been using WeWork for years now. Whether it's in Manchester, London, Manhattan, or LA, WeWork is easy. It literally requires no thinking. There's no stress of finding the perfect working location. WeWork does it all for you. Plenty of desk space, meeting rooms, collaboration spaces, drinks, snacks. It's all there. So for your next remote working trip away from the office, or if you want a new, fresh space to work in, then don't just work anywhere. WeWork might just be your answer. And you can get 25% off your first six months of WeWork All Access by using code CEOWORKS. That's one word, CEOWORKS. And to redeem this offer, visit we.co/CEOWORKS. (page flips) It's funny, every year, around this time of year, for whatever reason, I go on a little bit of a psychological shift. And that psychological shift, I think, is somewhat inspired by summer. But it's also inspired by the fact that I want to feel strong in this season of life. And as I age, strength training is my number one form of training. And the question becomes, how do you build muscle, and how do you become strong in terms of supplementation? And this is where Huel's nutritionally Complete Protein product is my best friend, for a couple of reasons. One, it tastes better than any protein product I've ever tried. Two, in terms of the nutritionally complete aspect, it has the vitamin and minerals you need. It's about 100 calories, so it's incredibly light, but it also packs over 20 grams of protein into every serving. Try the salted caramel flavor. It is the bomb, and let me know how you get on.
1:22:28 – 1:25:50
Continuing your career despite all your hardships
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  (page flips) Despite all of this, despite rising over and over again, your career continued on.
2. BJBozoma Saint John
  Mm-hmm. Yeah.
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  You worked at Endeavor, the company that own, like, the UFC and WWE, et cetera.
4. BJBozoma Saint John
  Yes, yes, yes.
5. SBSteven Bartlett
  Um, Beats.
6. BJBozoma Saint John
  Yeah.
7. SBSteven Bartlett
  Uber, Netflix.
8. BJBozoma Saint John
  Mm-hmm. Apple.
9. SBSteven Bartlett
  Apple.
10. BJBozoma Saint John
  Oh, yeah. All the things.
11. SBSteven Bartlett
  It doesn't seem like there was a huge time for pause.
12. BJBozoma Saint John
  Mm.
13. SBSteven Bartlett
  And for... You know? 'Cause you just seemed to get right back at it all the time.
14. BJBozoma Saint John
  (laughs)
15. SBSteven Bartlett
  I mean, that's what it appears when you look-
16. BJBozoma Saint John
  Yeah.
17. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... at the chronological nature of these events.
18. BJBozoma Saint John
  Yeah.
19. SBSteven Bartlett
  Um, how have all of these personal tragedies fed into your career?
20. BJBozoma Saint John
  Hmm.
21. SBSteven Bartlett
  And what role has your career continued to play in-
22. BJBozoma Saint John
  Mm-hmm.
23. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... dealing with these personal tragedies?
24. BJBozoma Saint John
  Yeah, um. Well, I think especially Peter's death, um, made me impatient. Impatient is the wrong word, but it kind of feels like impatience with life, you know?
25. SBSteven Bartlett
  Urgent?
26. BJBozoma Saint John
  Yes, urgent, for sure. (laughs) The urgent life. Um, because I just have a much better understanding of not wasting my time or my energy.
27. SBSteven Bartlett
  When I look at your story and I see someone who doesn't hang around if they don't like something-
28. BJBozoma Saint John
  Yeah.
29. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... you know?
30. BJBozoma Saint John
  Yeah.

Episode duration: 1:35:43

Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript

Transcript of episode cuVTVOdkmek

Get more out of YouTube videos.

High quality summaries for YouTube videos. Accurate transcripts to search & find moments. Powered by ChatGPT & Claude AI.

Add to Chrome