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Dr. Orion Taraban: Why Apps Funnel Women To 10% Of Men

Taraban frames modern romance as a harsh value marketplace today: dating apps funnel women to the top 10% of men, while porn drains male energy.

Dr. Orion TarabanguestSteven Bartletthost
Aug 26, 20242h 22mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 2:27

    Intro

    1. OT

      When women are empowered to make their own sexual decisions, they target the top 10% of men.

    2. SB

      But why does any of that matter?

    3. OT

      Well, that creates a lot of problems, both for men and women. So it creates problems for women because...

    4. NA

      Dr. Orion Taraban is a clinical psychologist who specializes in modern dating and relationships by delving into the psychological aspects of attraction, communication, and emotional intimacy.

    5. OT

      The meteoric rise of dating apps has seen a catastrophic decline in all forms of relationships. Fewer people are entering into relationships. Fewer people are even hooking up anymore. It is a crisis, and a lot of the traditional strategies are no longer relevant.

    6. SB

      So where do you start?

    7. OT

      First of all, date like it's your job. Lots of people just want a loving, secure, peaceful relationship. That's like wanting a job that's high-paying, low-stress, and you're passionate about. If you want one of those jobs, they're the needle in the haystack. You might have to send out 200 resumes, and you have to get over that rejection. Another thing, you get more opportunities for selection the more attractive you present yourself. And everyone can be more attractive than they currently are. And also, for the less conventionally attractive that you are, the more you have to learn seduction. And if you can do both, you'll be able to have all kinds of relationships.

    8. SB

      So how do I become more attractive and also learn the art of seduction?

    9. OT

      So first of all, you need to...

    10. SB

      What role has pornography played in all this?

    11. OT

      It has completely changed the game of mating and dating. If you give men the opportunity to exist in a sexually satisfied state, which is what pornography does, then they aren't going to be having sex with real women.

    12. SB

      So the man that comes to you with this problem, so what do you say to those men?

    13. OT

      The advice I would give is...

    14. SB

      This is a sentence I never thought I'd say in my life. Um, we've just hit seven million subscribers on YouTube, and I wanna say a huge thank you to all of you that show up here every Monday and Thursday to watch our conversations. Um, from the bottom of my heart, but also on behalf of my team, who you don't always get to meet, there's almost 50 people now behind the Diary of a CEO that worked to put this together. So, from all of us, thank you so much. Um, we did a raffle last month, and we gave away prizes for people that subscribed to the show up until seven million subscribers. And you guys loved that raffle so much that we're gonna continue it. So every single month, we're giving away money-can't-buy prizes, including meetings with me, invites to our events, and 1,000 pound gift vouchers to anyone that subscribes to the Diary of a CEO. There's now more than seven million of you. So if you make the decision to subscribe today, you can be one of those lucky people. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. Let's get to the conversation.

  2. 2:27 – 4:50

    The Relationship & Sex Crisis

    1. SB

      Dr. Orion Taraban, can you give me the macro picture as it relates to the work that you do? When I say the macro picture, I mean, like, what is going on in the world now that is so interesting and important for us to un- understand? Before we start talking about the relationship dynamics that we're goin- going to talk about, what is that sort of macro picture at the moment, and how has that changed and changing?

    2. OT

      I think probably big picture the most salient thing in the world is the relationship crisis that we're working through. And it is a crisis. In the last 10 years, all kinds of relationships are being transacted less frequently. Fewer people are getting married at this country. I think in the most recent year in which statistics are available, it's at historic lows. It has never been this low before in the history of America. Fewer people are entering into relationships. Half the world's population lives in countries below reproductive rates, replacement rates. America would also be one of those countries if it weren't for its immigration. Like, its actual citizenry isn't reproducing enough to replace its own population, but that's obscured by immigration.

    3. SB

      Really?

    4. OT

      Yeah. Fewer people are even hooking up anymore. Like, there's fewer even casual sexual relationships being transacted, which is somewhat surprising.

    5. SB

      When you say fewer people are hooking up, and there's fewer, um, transactional sexual relationships, versus when? Versus, like, the 1950s, or...

    6. OT

      Versus certainly 1970.

    7. SB

      Okay.

    8. OT

      So when the pill became widely available, there was predictably an explosion in casual sex relationships. We know that for both men and women, the number of lifetime sexual partners went up significantly, and we see that that's much lower these days. And that's kind of a problem because regardless of how you feel about casual sex, we live in a culture in which sex precedes commitment.

    9. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    10. OT

      So the way to get to commitment and to long-term relationships and engagement and marriage, if that's what you're looking for, is kind of through sex. It's the first step of a process that can potentially end in children and family. So there are important downstream consequences in a culture where sex precedes commitment when there is less casual sex being transacted.

  3. 4:50 – 6:56

    How The Relationship Crisis Is Affecting Us

    1. OT

    2. SB

      All of those things you've described in the macro, those macro factors, why do any of them matter?

    3. OT

      Why do any of them matter? Hmm.

    4. SB

      What's the downstream consequence of all those things? You know, you've described less people hooking up, but marriage and all these other factors, relationships. Why, why does any of that matter to society?

    5. OT

      Well, I guess on a macro scale, it could be population collapse. I mean, we know that some countries like Japan are already on the other side of their curve and are going to have a very top-heavy generation for the next 10 to 15 years, where one worker might be supporting over two citizens, which might be an economic burden that few workers can bear.

    6. SB

      'Cause there's a young, there's young people in the workforce, and then there's too many old people, effectively-

    7. OT

      Yeah-

    8. SB

      ... for them to care.

    9. OT

      ... and there's not enough babies to kind of rise up and replace even those that are passing away. So that's why there's all these advances in robotics and AI, because they're trying to kind of make one person two people to keep society stable. And the economic consequences of population collapse would be dire. Like, they would have to be navigated with a great deal of nuance and vision, because the more accelerated the decline, the more unstable society becomes.So that probably is, on a macro level, the most dangerous thing about this kinda situation. But for the individual, it just makes mating and dating so much more confusing than it ever has been. Like the individual probably isn't worried about the collapse of civilization and population decline. They're worried about, "Am I gonna find somebody that I can have a satisfying relationship with?" And that seems to be more difficult than it ever has been, which is paradoxical because it also seems, on some level, it should never have been easier in the history of humanity to get into a sexual or romantic relationship with all of our new technologies.

    10. SB

      But it is.

    11. OT

      It is. Isn't that interesting?

    12. SB

      Who, who is suffering more, or are they just suffering differently, men or women?

    13. OT

      Usually it's, it's hard to be a man and it's hard to be a woman. It's like hard to be a human being. Down here, suffering is kind of standard. Like it's pain either way.

  4. 6:56 – 7:45

    Common Problems Men Are Facing In Modern Relationships

    1. OT

    2. SB

      What other types of problems that, let's start with men, men are having?

    3. OT

      Well, it's harder for men to meet women and to get into relationships. Like in the last 10 years, the number of relationships that were initiated online increased by 250%, which is huge. 10 years ago, about 20% of Americans met online. Now it's over 50. The vast majority of couples are now meeting through social media or online dating sites, and across that same time period, we've seen a radical decrease in relationships that are being transacted. So it's correlative, but it's very suggestive that the meteoric rise of dating apps has also seen a catastrophic decline in all forms of relationships.

  5. 7:45 – 8:20

    Are Dating Apps Really Helping?

    1. OT

    2. SB

      Do you think dating apps are a net positive or a net negative?

    3. OT

      I think most people don't know how to use dating apps correctly. Dating apps are tools and you have to adapt your strategy given what that technology is capable of doing. If you try to use dating apps casually, you're probably going to be infuriated, depressed and hopeless. Like you need a strategy, and that strategy generally requires massive action, so especially for men.

  6. 8:20 – 9:10

    The Crisis Of Masculinity: What Men Are Going Through

    1. OT

    2. SB

      Interesting. We'll get into that 'cause I wanna dig deeper there.

    3. OT

      Sure.

    4. SB

      But just closing off on this point about the other ways m- in which the changes in society have started to impact men.

    5. OT

      Yeah.

    6. SB

      Um, I think a lot about the mental health statistics and about suicidality. I think at least in the UK, I know that the single biggest killer of men above the age of, I think, 40 or 45 is themselves. And, um, I, I'm thi- try- trying to understand if there's correlation there between the, a changing world that has changed dating dynamics but also gender dynamics and the impact that that's had on men and masculinity, let's say.

    7. OT

      Well, masculinity is in a crisis which creates an opportunity in the marketplace for lots of people to come in and say, "This is what it means to be a man." Like that would be somewhat unheard of 100 years ago because we all just more or less knew what it meant to be a man. But now we need personalities

  7. 9:10 – 11:35

    How Gender Dynamics Have Shifted Over Time

    1. OT

      to come into the milieu and say, "This is what it means to be a man." Now, in my opinion, a lot of that is what I would call performative masculinity and is not at the core of what it means to be a man, but can make you more visible in the sexual marketplace. Like one of the th- Regardless of your attitudes towards traditional masculinity or femininity, it makes that person more visible to the opposite sex. It's like by emphasizing what you might call, um, sexual dimorphic characteristics.

    2. SB

      What's that?

    3. OT

      That is a biological phenomenon that says that m- males and females look very different, but not in all ways. Like for example, the peacock, the male is the one with the bright plumage, right? And so whereas the f- the peahen, the female doesn't have that. And so a lot of the attraction between peacocks and pea- hens is based on that plumage because it's one way in which the males and females really differentiate themselves from each other. So it makes sense to stress the most visible obvious differences from a biological perspective between men and women to make that contrast more visible.

    4. SB

      So I might get really big bicep muscles because that's one of the big sort of differences, and she might get a boob job.

    5. OT

      Sure. I mean, yeah, absolutely. That's one of the, on some level, issues with respect to some of the, the gender conversations these days, which is that when you move further away from these really obvious sexual signals, it's harder to kind of even see you. It's like, "Well, what are you and what do you want and what are you putting yourself out there for?" Like it becomes more individualistic, it becomes more custom tailored, which is harder to see at a distance. And it's wh- it's really important on some level to be able to kind of see things at a distance because there's an opportunity cost to approaching. If I'm going up to you and talking to you and learning more about you, I'm not doing that with anybody else, at least for this moment in time, right? And so I kinda wanna feel like there's a reasonable hope that if I go here, I might find something that I want or what I like versus this is just curious, I don't know what this is. The vast majority of people don't have the time and the energy to really explore and entertain their curiosity. They go where they need to go

  8. 11:35 – 15:46

    Andrew Tate And The Rise Of Performative Masculinity

    1. OT

      or they want to go.

    2. SB

      So going back to that, that starting point then, one of the things that's emerged as a solution to men, I guess, feeling lost about what it is to be a man is this performative masculinity.

    3. OT

      Mm-hmm.

    4. SB

      In there, we, we, we put people like, you know, I've heard you talk about Andrew Tate being-

    5. OT

      I don't think I've ever talked about Andrew Tate.

    6. SB

      I really thought it was on one of your videos that I saw on TikTok or something.

    7. OT

      Mm-hmm.

    8. SB

      Would you fit him in the category of perfo- of performative masculinity?

    9. OT

      I would fit him in the category of a personality who's come to the forefront to help men who might be lost and confused to find their way in navigating the current-... sexual marketplace, absolutely.

    10. SB

      So he's, he's offering a solution to navigating the current-

    11. OT

      Yes. Yeah.

    12. SB

      ... sexual marketplace? Yeah. And wha- um, what do you think of that solution?

    13. OT

      I don't fol- I haven't followed Andrew Tate very closely. I've watched just a few of his clips. I think he talked about acting in a way in such that your ancestors would be proud if they were watching you, and I was like, "Oh, that's a pretty good piece of advice."

    14. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    15. OT

      Uh, I actually follow very few, uh, content creators online-

    16. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    17. OT

      ... because I'm trying to keep my content as, um, original as possible. I don't want to necessarily just do reactions to other folks. He's clearly a problematic character. Like, I think that he was indicted for sex trafficking in Europe, correct?

    18. SB

      Yeah, something like that.

    19. OT

      Um, so I don't know the full story, but clearly people had... He was both loved and hated, that's for sure.

    20. SB

      Just, oh, I really wanna just close up on the point about th- the world that m- men find themselves in before we move to the world that women find themselves in and then try and tackle some of those problems. So, um, they're lost in, uh, terms of understanding what masculinity is. We know that there's been... They're finding it harder to find dates. Um, they're finding it harder to have sort of sexual relationships. Is there anything else that I need to understand about the, the man in the current social climate?

    21. OT

      Well, I think the, the problem for the vast majority of men, especially young men, is their invisibility. Most men are wallpaper, and the world does not treat men very well when they want nothing from them. I talk about that in the very first pages of the book, that to understand why some people are rich in relationship opportunities, whether they're romantic, professional, friendship, et cetera, and other people are not, it's not correct to say that it's the good people who have relationship opportunities or the virtuous people. It's the people that other people want things from that have relationship opportunities. If you have more of what other people want more, you are going to have relationship opportunities throughout your lifespan, and that's very difficult, 'cause imagine being an 18-year-old man. You have no money, and you've never had money. You may not have a job. You may never have had a job, so you have no skills. You're kind of invisible to women because you don't have yet anything that women might find conducive for a long-term relationship. If you're cute, they might hook up with you. But if you're not even that, I mean, why waste their opportunity? Why waste their time when there are other more attractive options available? And you're also kind of useless to most men because you don't yet have the skills and the experience to be a good team player. Like, I wouldn't want you on my squad if you've never been out in the field. You're gonna be a liability. You know what I'm saying?

    22. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    23. OT

      I would have to carry your ass off the field. So you can't be here either, and that creates a, obviously the catch-22, which is, well, where am I gonna get the experience if no one gives me a shot? It's actually very difficult to be a young man. You don't have what either women or more experienced men want or need, and you're generally very disposable, and unfortunately we've seen that. I mean, young men have a very high mortality rate in all kinds of ways. They were shipped off to wars. You talked about the suicide epidemic among older men. Well, it's also very high among adolescent boys as well. It's hard to be a

  9. 15:46 – 18:03

    Why Men Need To Feel Needed In Relationships

    1. OT

      young man.

    2. SB

      I, I remember one of my guests telling me that they... about a study where they analyzed the suicide letters of men-

    3. OT

      Mm-hmm.

    4. SB

      ... and they looked at the words used versus the words used in female suicide letters, and the ty- the most sort of frequent sentiment amongst those letters was about feeling worthless, feeling like you weren't needed. And the, the guest on the podcast concluded that really what we needed to find a way t- is to send a message to men that you are needed. And it's a strange thing to say, but it, but it correlates perfectly to what you were saying.

    5. OT

      The, the message sounds good, but it would be better to actually have opportunities to be needed-

    6. SB

      Yeah.

    7. OT

      ... than to be told that you are needed and that you are valued and that you are cared for. That's a nice emotional sentiment that doesn't really keep the demons away at night.

    8. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    9. OT

      People need to feel connected to other people. They need to feel like they have a place in the world, and it can take quite some time to discover that. What I've d- One of the traps that I fell into when I was a young man is I thought that I could figure that out by just sort of like noodling it out alone in my room. Like, I, I was trying to figure out what I wanted my life to be about, what the purpose of my life was going to be before I a- even left the house, and I wasted a lot of time in fruitless rumination that way. It's much better to discover your purpose in life by moving through the world and examining your choices in retrospect. It's like you only really get to discover who you are by examining and understanding your revealed preferences based on your behavior as you move through the world. It's very easy to think of yourself in all kinds of ways when you're untested, when you're untried, when you're in the morally ambiguous situations in which human beings find themselves as they navigate reality.

    10. SB

      Are you saying that the evidence you're looking for or the answers you're looking for come from-

    11. OT

      Taking action. Absolutely. They don't come from thinking it out. They often don't come from therapy, and that might sound weird coming from a therapist, but I do think that we live in a very overly therapized culture with the understanding that therapy is somewhat of a panacea in that it should be able to cure all that ails you, and I don't think that that's true. Therapy is very good for certain problems, and it's n- useless for others.

  10. 18:03 – 18:54

    The Unique Challenges Women Face In Today's World

    1. OT

    2. SB

      What about women? What are the challenges that a, a woman faces in the modern world because of all these sort of macro changes that have taken place?

    3. OT

      Well, the main...... problem that I see women encountering, at least in my consultative practice, is they have trouble finding the men that they want to have long-term relationships with. Uh, almost every consultation I've done with a woman has been around, "How do I get a man to marry me?" And that's also kind of strange, because I would think 80, 100 years ago, that was something that that girl was being prepared for since she was a very young person, by her mother and her grandmother and her aunts and her female relatives, with whom she probably lived in close consultation. And she never would have gotten to the age of 30 where this would be s- an open question still.

  11. 18:54 – 20:02

    My Professional Journey: What Led Me Here

    1. OT

    2. SB

      And who are you? What's your sort of... If I, if I looked at your s- s- CV, you know, you talked about your consultative practice, what is the experiences you've had and the education you've had that have brought you to this point where you've written this book about relationships and those dynamics? What is your sort of professional personal experience?

    3. OT

      Well, professionally, I'm a psychologist. I'm licensed in the state of California, so I went to grad school and got a doctorate in psychology. I had all kinds of training experiences while I was moving through that. I worked at a chemical dependency clinic for two years. I worked with cancer patients and their caregivers in a health psychology setting for a couple years. I worked with significant dysfunction in a community mental health center in San Francisco for a while. I worked in outpatient with severe personality disorders. So that was all part of my training. And then when I started my private practice, I began to focus on men's mental health, and for a long time when I was a therapist, I worked exclusively with men. That's changed a little bit now that, uh, I have a kind of a larger platform on which to rich- reach people. Um, but that's sort of been my professional experience.

  12. 20:02 – 22:08

    Understanding The Problems Both Men And Women Face

    1. OT

    2. SB

      So in your private practice, when people come to you, what are, what are men most frequently coming to you with in terms of the problem they come with, versus what women come to you with a problem with?

    3. OT

      Well, in general, it's either money or women for men.

    4. SB

      Oh, really?

    5. OT

      Yeah. And this is nothing new. Like Sigmund Freud said a long time ago that the purpose of psychoanalysis was to teach people how to work and how to love. That's it. If you can learn how to work and love, you can be a fairly functional human being in society and have a satisfying life. And he also said that the goal of therapy was not to cure suffering per se, which might be i- inseparable from the human experience, but to free human beings from neurotic unnecessary suffering so that they are better equipped to meet the necessary suffering and pain of being alive. So he had, I think, a more attenuated vision for what therapy could do. So it's either money, work, or women, love. And what I found is that it's either one or the other. I often did consultations with guys who were super successful professionally. They were making millions, but they were in failed marriage after failed marriage, or they couldn't f- for the life of them get laid, even if they were having parties with models on their super yachts. You know what I'm saying?

    6. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    7. OT

      By the same token, there are, there are fewer of them because they couldn't afford my out-of-pocket rate, but it's like there were some men who were just absolutely cleaning up. Like, I've done some consultations. I had some, some patients, young men who were just, like, plowing through San Francisco. I mean, they had sexual success in a way that most men would just fantasize about. But they had a really hard time getting their money straight, their career. Um, they were super stressed out. They had anxiety disorders, things like that. Which is actually fairly ironic, because what I found is if it works in one domain, it generally works in the other.

  13. 22:08 – 24:57

    Applying Business Strategies To Improve Relationships

    1. OT

    2. SB

      Interesting. So if I get my work right, then I'll get my love right.

    3. OT

      If it works in business, it often works with women.

    4. SB

      What do you mean? Sorry.

    5. OT

      Well, think about it this way. Men want sex and they want relationships from women. Women don't go around giving those things out to men just because they want them. Okay? So what's the analogous problem in the professional arena? Which is, "I want money." Let's say you're a salesman. "I want money. I have this product," or, "I have this service. I want people to hire me. I want people to buy it." Well, people aren't just going around with their wallets out saying, "Who's gonna take my money?" You know what I'm saying?

    6. SB

      Yeah, yeah.

    7. OT

      So you have to find a way to get what you want from the people that you want it from. And a lot of the strategies that work in business to do that will work in the sexual marketplace as well.

    8. SB

      Interesting. That's, um, that's-s very, very true. Because I, I think I told you before we started recording, when I was, I don't know, 18, there was this pickup artistry book sent to my house that I think my brother, my older brother had ordered, but he ordered it to the wrong address-

    9. OT

      Hm.

    10. SB

      ... because he had moved out to university. So he said, "Just keep it."

    11. OT

      Lucky accident for you, I suppose.

    12. SB

      Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I sat there, and I read it cover to cover without moving. And actually, much of the principles I learned about pickup artistry, about attraction, about being a high value male, are actually things that I took into business when it comes to negotiation, sales, persuasion, and all those things. So I do see that translation.

    13. OT

      Well, another thing is that often when I say that... 'Cause people have all kinds of associations with pickup. They think it's kind of sleazy.

    14. SB

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    15. OT

      And it's especially for guys who couldn't get laid otherwise, and so they have to use manipulative tactics to get what they want. It's like, okay, well, yeah. Welcome to advertising, right?

    16. SB

      Yeah.

    17. OT

      So that's one side of it. They think that those strategies just work to get laid or to have casual sexual relationships. No, they often also work in long-term relationships, not only because generally the pathway to a long-term relationship is through a more casual arrangement. Usually people date and hang out and sleep together for some weeks, some months before they define the relationship, right? So they kinda, for better or for worse, have to go through that s- proving ground before they get to here, right? But, like, it's really important for long-term relationships. It's one of the principles...... for long-term success is complementarity of skillsets. It's like if you're a startup founder, you want somebody who can do very well the things that you cannot do.

    18. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    19. OT

      Like having two CEOs is just a recipe for competition, struggle, and strife, right?

    20. SB

      Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    21. OT

      So you need people with complementary skillsets in order to go the distance.

    22. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    23. OT

      In my experience, 90% of successful relationships are based on selection. If you can understand yourself, accurate self-knowledge, and you get better at discerning other people, you can have satisfying relationships with lots of different human beings.

  14. 24:57 – 27:59

    Why Women Seek Marriage: A Deeper Look

    1. OT

    2. SB

      We're gonna get into h- figuring out how you do that. But I-

    3. OT

      Right.

    4. SB

      But on the point I asked you there, I said, "What do men come to you with in terms of problem sets?" And you said money and women.

    5. OT

      Yeah.

    6. SB

      Ideally sort of work and-

    7. OT

      Mm-hmm.

    8. SB

      ... work and women or work and love. So what do women come to you?

    9. OT

      They wanna get married.

    10. SB

      So they just come to you with the love problems?

    11. OT

      Yeah, I mean, they do that now because I, I talk about lots of things on my channel, but by far the most successful videos are the ones about intersexual dynamics. And so that's kind of what I'm known for. And so there is a bit of a selection bias there as the most popular videos are me talking about men and women. And so, m- increasingly men and women come to me about their relationship issues, right?

    12. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    13. OT

      So that makes sense.

    14. SB

      S-

    15. OT

      But women use therapy for all kinds of different reasons, right? We know that women are by far bigger consumers of therapeutic services, in particular, like actually going to therapy. And also more generally, like they make up the lion's share of consumers for just self-help material in general. Like there's a big market for that kind of self-betterment and self-improvement in the female marketplace. And we also know that about 85% of mental health practitioners are women. Like when I was in my training, I think I was one of three people in my cohort that were men. Uh, I would interview at some placements where there weren't any men at all on the staff whatsoever. And just like I can appreciate that women might not feel entirely comfortable going to a man with certain of their issues, I know for sure that there's plenty of men who wouldn't feel comfortable going to a woman about some of their concerns. So when they talk about why... uh, uh, you often hear, it's usually women, they're dissatisfied with men's lack of interest in going to therapy. Men would literally want to refurbish a train than go to therapy and talk about their feelings. Well, it's partly it's because there aren't a lot of male practitioners. And I think what's good for men isn't always what's good for women-

    16. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    17. OT

      ... and vice versa. What's good for the goose isn't always what's good for the gander. What I found is that women generally talk to process their emotions, and they're more keen on emotionally focused strategies, right? Whereas men, they try to resolve things through action and through solution. And they often see that just talking about their problems and paying for the opportunity to do so to be a complete waste of time and money, and I can understand why. Now, it does have its place. Like it's very important for some men to be able to have a safe space to really share their experience and talk about this stuff, because man, they can be judged harshly if they open up to the wrong people. So there is a time and a place for that for men as well, but it's generally not every week for several years.

  15. 27:59 – 30:27

    Helping Men Improve Their Lives And Relationships

    1. OT

    2. SB

      So let's go into those two, those three different problems then. So if a man comes to you and they are expressing an issue with love, they're trying to get laid, they're trying to find someone-

    3. OT

      Mm-hmm.

    4. SB

      ... um, where does w- where do you start? W- what are the sort of foundational things you need them to understand for you to all get focused in the right direction?

    5. OT

      Hmm. I usually start with what they've tried in the past and where in the funnel they tend to be experiencing their difficulties. Like there's a... the advice is very different if you're not getting any matches on a dating app or you haven't been able to get a date in months versus I can get with women, but after three months, everything kinda seems to fall apart, or I'm able... everyone just wants me for these long-term relationships, and I just wanna be able to play the field. So it's really depending on the goals of the m- man in question and where he's experiencing the difficulties.

    6. SB

      So if he's at the top of the funnel, so when we talk about funnels, um, if we have the top of the funnel is, you know, you're meeting people-

    7. OT

      Mm-hmm.

    8. SB

      ... maybe a little bit further down the funnel is your, you know, having some kind of relationship with them short term, and then at the very bottom of the funnel might be like marriage and kids.

    9. OT

      Sure.

    10. SB

      Um, so at the very top... So if they come in at the top of the funnel and they've got problems just like meeting people, where, where do you start?

    11. OT

      That's a tough one. I think it's a good idea in today's day and age to have kind of a dual strategy. I think that you can use the apps for what the apps are good for, but overly relying on them as a solution for your dating woes is probably not correct. You're gonna have to get out there and get better at your people skills. Because even if you do match with somebody, if you're more of an introvert, if you have a lot of social anxiety, even if you manage to get someone off the app into the real world, you might be able to blow it because you're gonna be nervous. You're gonna be uncharismatic. You're not gonna know how to lead the encounter in the direction of a sexual experience, if that's what you're looking for. So it's generally a good idea to get out there. Um, there's really no antidote. There's no, there's no better solution than doing it. It's just like learning a language. You have to speak it.

    12. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    13. OT

      You're gonna make a lot of mistakes. You're going to be embarrassed. It's going to feel frustrating and impossible until it doesn't. So unfortunately, everything that you can say or read or listen to is just prelude to going out there and doing it and failing enough times and learning from your mistakes until you have a reasonable hit rate.

  16. 30:27 – 31:46

    How To Increase Your Attractiveness

    1. SB

      ... but how do I increase my probability that a woman will give me that chance and then stick with me? Like, how do I increase my chance of being attractive? A- are there things I can do? Do I need to go hit the gym?

    2. OT

      Sure. Like, when I talk about in the book is that everyone can be more attractive than they currently are. And if you're having a problem in that initial funnel, it's generally a marketing issue. Because think about it, on an app, it's six pictures and three responses. In a meat market, it's, "Hey, how you doing?" And it's like, she's gonna give me a once-over, she already gave me the side-eye, and she's gonna kind of make a snap judgment based on the vibe that I'm giving out, right? Neither one of those has anything to do with really who I am as a person. That's one of the things is that they can't really reject you because they haven't spent any time getting to know you. For better or for worse, if they like you or not, they like the idea of you. They like the presentation of you. And it's really important not to disabuse people of that presentation too quickly.

    3. SB

      Okay, so to think about your exterior marketing.

    4. OT

      Absolutely.

    5. SB

      Okay.

    6. OT

      Because that's what men do.

    7. SB

      Yeah.

    8. OT

      I mean, they don't go up to women randomly. They think, "Oh, man, she's pretty cute," right? They're paying attention to the surface marketing

  17. 31:46 – 34:41

    The Importance Of Surface Marketing In Dating

    1. OT

      as well.

    2. SB

      What can I do with my surface marketing to make me more attractive?

    3. OT

      Well, you gotta focus on what you can control because generally, when we go down this road, what I hear from men online is, "Well, that's all well and good, Orion, but I'm 5'6"," you know, "I'm balding. Women aren't gonna like me." And it's like, yeah, i- if you don't have some of the genetic markers, it is more difficult, but everyone can get better at what they do. And on some level, the less conventionally attractive that you are, the more you have to learn seduction, the more you have to learn game. You have to think about the fact that attractiveness is not normally distributed across any population, right?

    4. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    5. OT

      There's gonna be a small subset of men and women who are just absolutely gorgeous, some that are, ooh, wow, that's interesting, and most people are kind of in the middle, right? And seduction is the process of being able to direct attention to your purposes. And the more that you can learn how to direct attention for your purposes, the more that you can overcome some of the liabilities associated with being, let's say, in the fat part of the curve when it comes to attractiveness.

    6. SB

      Okay, so how do I do that?

    7. OT

      Well, you have to kinda learn what works. I think one of the things that all men can learn from the pickup community is that they were basically behavioral scientists. Some of them went to the field and said, "Okay, if I knew what I was doing, I'd be laid by now. You know, I'd have, I'd be awash in optionality. So maybe I don't know what women want. Maybe I don't know what works. Let's let the outcome teach me what I should believe as opposed to going to women with a preconceived notion about what should work or what they should want." And that's why, on some level, you've got what on the surface seems like some ridiculous strategies, like peacocking. You know, it's like some men look at that and, "I would never do that. That's just so ostentatious and extravagant." But it can attract attention. That's a very, let's say, uh, heavy-handed way to do so.

    8. SB

      For someone that doesn't know what peacocking is, how would you describe it?

    9. OT

      Uh, you know, dressing a little bit more flamboyantly to attract attention.

    10. SB

      Or like a flamboyant feature, or like it could be a crazy hat you have on.

    11. OT

      It could be a crazy hat. Flavor Flav had the big clock around his neck. I, I don't know if I just dated myself with that reference. But, um, there's... And sometimes it's just looking sharp. I mean, by far, one of the best things that men can do is just spend 1 or 2,000 bucks to get, like, two or three really good outfits.

    12. SB

      Yeah.

    13. OT

      And you can just cycle through them when you're dating, especially in some marketplaces. LA is tough. New York is tough. But it is so easy to be the best-dressed man in San Francisco.

    14. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    15. OT

      I swear to God. It does not take that much effort. And if you're the best-dressed man in the room, you get, like, one free point.

    16. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    17. OT

      Can you imagine? Some women have to spend tens of thousands of dollars on comedic- cosmetic surgery to get one extra point. Some men just need to put some clothes on and get a better haircut. You know what I'm saying? And they refuse to do that, for whatever reason.

  18. 34:41 – 36:54

    How To Get Better At Meeting Women

    1. OT

    2. SB

      What other things should I be thinking about in terms of seduction if I wanna be... 'Cause one of the central things I need to understand, as you've said, f- that the pickup artist community learned is, is what actually leads to the outcome? Because if I was to ask a woman, "Hey, how can I become more attractive to a woman?" I, I guess what she might say to me is, "Be nice, be..."

    3. OT

      Oof.

    4. SB

      You know, what- I don't know.

    5. OT

      I've asked that question to so many women in my life, and I've never gotten a good answer, because that's almost always the response, is, "I want a kind man. I want a man who is... I feel safe with. I want a man who is loving." And usually the guy in question is listening to that and being like, "Well, what the fuck's the problem? It's like I'm, I'm kind as shit. Like, I don't get it. Like, I need to be kinder?" And they, they start to lean into that even more. And I don't think that these women are necessarily lying to these men, but they're leaving out the most important part. One of my most popular YouTube videos is the part that women always leave out that speaks exactly to this problem, which is that women do want those things that they list off when men ask them that question. They just want them from the men that they're attracted to.

    6. SB

      Ah.

    7. OT

      They want the men they're attracted to to be kind and to be loving and to be generous and to make them feel safe. But it's not like being kind and generous and making women feel safe is going to lead them to feeling attracted to you. And that's the part that women leave out, and men, in their, let's say, naive but good-hearted intention to give women what they want and to be a better mate for them, they just totally lose out on. So, it's better to be attractive, like if you want to be good at the game of mating and dating...... you have an easier time, the more attractive that you present yourself. You have an... You get more opportunities for selection. You get more beneficial arrangements in the negotiation process, and it's easier to maintain your relationship in the long run against your intersexual competition as well. So there's all kinds of privileges and benefits to being attractive. And everyone can be more attractive than they currently are.

  19. 36:54 – 37:33

    Tips For Men To Boost Their Attractiveness

    1. OT

    2. SB

      What do men need to do to be more attractive?

    3. OT

      I think they can learn to dress better.

    4. SB

      Yeah.

    5. OT

      I think that they can take care of their physical fitness.

    6. SB

      Yeah.

    7. OT

      For some men, it's as basic as hygiene. You know what I'm saying? Uh, I think it's also really important to learn how to talk. The most... The most vulnerable organ in a woman to sedup- seduction is her mind, is her brain. Like, you... That is her biggest erogenous zone. And if you can learn to talk to women in a way that women will listen and respond to, you'll be able to do all kinds of things and have all kinds of relationships.

  20. 37:33 – 41:15

    How Men Should Communicate Effectively

    1. OT

    2. SB

      What do I need to say? (laughs)

    3. OT

      Well, it's not a script, right?

    4. SB

      Yeah.

    5. OT

      So one of the... It's a, it's a lot about vibing. Like female... Feminine communications, put it that way. Feminine communication is very different from masculine communication. I'm not saying... I'm, I'm staying away from men and women because obviously men and women can do both, but masculine communication is about the conveyance in information using semantic words. I know that the message has been received if you can more or less summarize that message back to me. It's like, I understood the content of what you said. Transmission complete, right?

    6. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    7. OT

      Feminine communication is very different. It's more like emotional resonance. And communication has been received when I can succeed in provoking in you a comparable or analogous emotional experience to the one that I went through or I'm currently in. You can think of it like tuning forks. One of them vi- is vibrating. If you bring another one up to it, it will start vibrating at the same frequency as well. And that's when you know that the communication has been received. And that's really important for men to understand because that leads to a lot of disagreements and arguments between men and women in their longterm relationships where sometimes women are attempting to get men to feel the way that they currently feel. But men are paying attention to what they're actually saying. And they're saying, "Why are you bringing this up now?" Or, "That's not factually accurate. I don't understand." And it's because of this failure of intersexual understanding. The woman is trying to provoke in the man the emotional state so that he can understand, like in his bones, what it feels like to have been her in that moment. But the men are just paying... Some men are just so literal. They're so functionally fixed on the semantic content of language. And the truth is that words are both. Words always have this defined semantic meaning, but they also are in different containers of emotion.

    8. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    9. OT

      Like, every word can be said with any different emotional content possible. You can say the word please seductively. You can say the word please threateningly. You can say the word please pathetically. I mean, that's what actors do, right? They invest this script, which are just words on a page, with emotional content and that's what makes their performance enchanting.

    10. SB

      Hmm.

    11. OT

      If you can do both, if you can be very particular with your words and you can invest it with some degree of emotional content, you can be a very charismatic communicator.

    12. SB

      And s- I guess some... You're saying that some men maybe lean one way more than the other?

    13. OT

      Absolutely. They lean more towards the semantic information.

    14. SB

      Just like logic, just-

    15. OT

      Absolutely.

    16. SB

      ... like a robot.

    17. OT

      Yeah. Well, sometimes. There's definitely some robotic men out there.

    18. SB

      And what women want is more of the emotional resonance-

    19. OT

      Yes.

    20. SB

      ... in how you're talking?

    21. OT

      Yeah. They want to vibe. You know, it's that Shakira song, "It's starting to feel right and our hips don't lie." So it's like sh- it's this mood that's being generated where the two people, the two dancers, the two players begin to occupy a shared private world. And within that world, the r- the rules don't always apply. We've created a different bounded universe and that's actually the goal of seduction, is the... just the two of us here and we're creating this separate universe that's different from everything else that's going on. It's just you and me here. And w- we can then play according to the rules that we've developed inside of this little microcosmic universe.

  21. 41:15 – 42:09

    Why You Don’t Need Money To Attract Women

    1. OT

    2. SB

      So I'm gonna get my hygiene right. I'm gonna hit the gym. I'm gonna get a new outfit.

    3. OT

      Sounds like you're doing pretty good.

    4. SB

      (laughs) I'm gonna learn how to talk. Is there anything else that in that sort of initial top of the funnel attraction phase I should be really focusing on to make sure that I increase my probability of just inviting someone in to the house?

    5. OT

      Those things are the most important. A lot of guys get too focused on money at this stage. And the fact of the matter is, is that money is what I call an attraction proxy. You don't need money to get laid. You don't need money to attract attention. It's one way. Like, it will absolutely attract attention if you go to the VIP section and order bottle service and you're throwing around tens of thousands of dollars.

    6. SB

      That was my whole strategy when I was 21.

    7. OT

      Wow, you had tens of thousand dollars thrown around? Good for you.

    8. SB

      Yes. It was just an... a pre-25 strategy that converted well for shallow relationships and stuff. But other than

  22. 42:09 – 44:35

    How I Completely Transformed My Life

    1. SB

      that...

    2. OT

      Yeah. It can work. But at the same token, I guarantee that there is an unemployed man living in his parents' basement who's getting laid tonight because he's a musician and he's playing at the local open mic on Tuesday. You know what I'm saying?

    3. SB

      100%.

    4. OT

      And he's up on stage. So if, if you're young and broke and you're not cute, then you have to find some way to be... to stand out. By far, the most...... useful thing to attracting women is not money per se, 'cause it's not always easy to tell who has money. Especially in places like San Francisco. The billionaires dress like homeless people sometimes. And, um, it's not necessarily power, because sometimes the most powerful individuals are actually hidden from the limelight, and that's what allows them to exercise their power with some degree of immunity. The most powerful people you know are probably not the most powerful people. The thing that works is fame, is renown. And renown can work at many different levels. You can be... And I learned this as an actor, which is how I got my start in New York City, is like I performed on some very small stages, um, throughout my career to sometimes just a few people in the audience. But the fact of the matter is, for those two hours, if I was the lead and my name was on the marquee and the spotlight was on me, on some level, what I call is I was the contextual alpha. And within that tiny, almost insignificant world, I was at the top of that status hierarchy. And that's what gets you laid. Now, those same women had no interest in having a long-term relationship with me. And that's what kind of motivated me to take a hard look at the guy in the mirror and think, "Well, shit, why would a woman want to marry me?" It's like, I'm living in this one-room studio with roaches everywhere. It's like, I'm broke. I'm living month to month. My lifestyle sucks. I don't really have much ambition except for this, let's say, very vague vision about becoming a successful actor, whatever that meant. I, I wasn't really... I didn't really have a plan, and I didn't really have much to offer in terms of a long-term relationship. And so I said, "Okay, well, if this is something that I want, I gotta... I mean, the cavalry isn't coming. I gotta do it because no one else will." Because no one else will. And I took kind of radical responsibility for my life and, you know, started down a different path.

  23. 44:35 – 47:08

    Tips On Keeping A Partner Long-Term

    1. OT

    2. SB

      We talked about attraction. Um, as you move down through that funnel, the next challenge becomes actually keeping someone.

    3. OT

      Yeah.

    4. SB

      And I, funnily enough, because in my early 20s, although I could seemingly attract women at this point, I couldn't get any of them to want to be in a relationship with me, especially the ones I wanted.

    5. OT

      Yeah. What is useful to get a man or a woman is not the same thing as what works to keep a man or a woman. Those are two different problems. Some people actually make great long-term partners, but they're terrible at attracting. They're terrible at the marketing. Other people, they get the marketing down, but they lack the substance, so they can't really go the distance from one way or the other. And so it's harder then to keep their partners around. There are two different problems. The solution for one does not apply to the other. In particular, the vast majority of attraction is based on projected fantasy. I don't know who you are. I just see the outside, and I'm gonna approach you because I like that outside. And my attraction is going to fill in the gaps in my knowledge base with what I want to see there. That's why I talk about... I made an episode about how most men blow the first date. They blow the first date by talking too much. They talk too much out of the misguided desire to prove their value to women. They usually do it in a very heavy-handed, ham-fisted way. And generally all they do is succeed in disabusing that woman of the fantasy that she had of that man, which is why she was sitting there on that date tonight.

    6. SB

      Mm.

    7. OT

      Because the likelihood that anything I say is going to match up with what you want to see in the privacy of your own mind is functionally zero. So I need to tread very carefully because you're not on this date because you like me, because you don't fucking know who I am yet. You're here because of what you hope I might be. And so I need to be very careful not to disabuse you of that hope too quickly-

    8. SB

      (laughs)

    9. OT

      ... right? It's actually... The, the key to, to transitioning from one phase to the other, it's gonna sound real bad, but it's a slow and gradual disappointment.

    10. SB

      (laughs)

    11. OT

      Right? Be- And, and you have to do this, because if you, you don't do it, then what do you end up with? You end up in a relationship where you're not truly known and you're just performing all the time. And that's probably not sustainable, but it's certainly not very satisfying.

  24. 47:08 – 49:33

    Why A Relationship's First Crisis Is Crucial

    1. OT

    2. SB

      And there'll be a sudden disappointment, probably.

    3. OT

      There, there generally is. I talk about that in the book. The crisis of disappointment is one of the first crises that all nascent relationships must pass through. And on some level, the relationship doesn't even begin in earnest until couples go through the crisis of disappointment, where either through one significant betrayal or the accumulation of small inconsistencies, the fantasy on which the relationship has been based up until that point shatters. And the person is really no different from who he or she was the day before, but he or she is gonna feel completely different, 'cause it's almost like you're... the scales have dropped from your eyes and you're seeing this person. And maybe what sound, what seemed cute and lovable and adorable just a week ago now is completely infuriating and, uh, difficult to live with. Sometimes the very things that we're most attracted to tend to be the things that we dislike most about our partners further down the road. It's this cruel irony.

    4. SB

      So interesting when you talk about this moment that some relationships go through where they have that sudden disappointment, where the kind of honeymoon effect, the halo effect of this person kind of shatters.

    5. OT

      Mm-hmm.

    6. SB

      And you say that's when the relationship actually begins.

    7. OT

      Well, yeah, because it's at that point where you have the opportunity, at long last, to see the other person for who he or she is. And you couldn't see that before. You just saw what you wanted to see. You were distorted in your perception by your attraction. And you need some of that distortion, because why else would you have taken the risk and the expense and the opportunity to pursue this relationship up until that point? Like, you need a little bit of attraction. Too much of attraction is crazy. I mean, it's completely distortive. Not enough attraction, and you're not gonna overcome the behavioral inertia. You're just gonna be so in your head and you're gonna be like, "This isn't worth it. I'd rather just do something with a higher..."... likelihood of success where I can get one of my needs met in a more predictable and consistent way. Because relationships are really a roll of the dice, especially today, more than, yeah, more than ever.

    8. SB

      So on that first date, can women also talk themselves out of it in terms of the woman talking too much and the man going, "Jesus Christ."

    9. OT

      They can, but most guys just are there trying to get laid.

    10. SB

      (laughs)

    11. OT

      So it, like the woman would have to be a total train wreck or that guy would have to have enough optionality that he could be picky. But most men are not picky because most men are just really hungry for anything that they're willing to get. I know that sounds bad, but it's kinda true.

  25. 49:33 – 51:31

    Why The Top 10% Of Men Are Having The Most Sex

    1. OT

    2. SB

      Well, I mean, it's supported by data as well, isn't it, that, you know, I've heard repeatedly that the top 10% of men are having most of the sex.

    3. OT

      They are killing it. It's like what a time to be alive these days, man. And that seems to be kind of the end state of a dysregulated sexual marketplace. And it's not unusual. It's not uncommon. Like we see this in all kinds of animal species, uh, elephant seals, wild mustangs. It's like you see some alpha males dominate the females who congregate in harems around those men. And if that man is defeated by another contender, the women aren't loyal, it's not like those females love that individual and they'll stick with it even after it's defeated in combat. They just move on to the next one. 85% of cultures on this planet, according to people who know more about this than I do, have been polygamous. And what we see is that when women are able and empowered to make their own sexual decisions in a sexual marketplace, they target the top 10% of men. That creates a lot of problems though. Creates a lot of problems, both for men and women. Um, it creates problems for women because the likelihood that any one of those 10% men are going to give up their insane sexual optionality and enter into a monogamous, exclusive arrangement with them is very negligible.

    4. SB

      (laughs)

    5. OT

      Like that guy has to be so done with playing the field and so ready to start a family and settle down. So it's really about timing as opposed to being the right woman. You kinda just have to be a, be good enough at the right moment to kind of capture that man's attention. And for the vast majority of those women, they're not gonna be it. But what's the alternative? It's like, "Ah, but this, uh, you know, this guy, he's, he's completely average. There's nothing bad about him. Nothing that great about him either. He'd make a great husband." Like that doesn't sound very attractive. I can understand that.

  26. 51:31 – 54:32

    Is A Relationship An Exchange Of Value?

    1. OT

    2. SB

      Do you still think that relationships are a exchange of value between two people?

    3. OT

      Of course.

    4. SB

      And what is that exchange of value? 'Cause when I, when, when you, when I read that, it kinda sounds like gold digging or something.

    5. OT

      Well, that's because often people take value very literally. And especially economics, that word just is associated very strongly with money-

    6. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    7. OT

      ... in the collective imagination. I think in one of the footnotes, I use a definition from von Mises from the Austrian School of Economics, and he basically defines economics as the study of human behavior in respect to means and, eh, with respect to ends and scarce means that could be applied in other ways. The easiest way to explain the value is that people don't move towards people they want nothing to do with. They have better things to do, especially when they have these scarce resources like time, like energy, like attention, and that they want things from other people. If I at a distance can see there's... It's like going shopping. I can look at a distance, there's nothing in that store that I want. I don't have to go in and waste my time to figure out whether that's absolutely true or not, because I have other things to do today. So it's like if there's nothing that I want from that store, I'm not gonna walk through its doors.

    8. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    9. OT

      Right? People don't move towards those they don't want anything from. So what is value? Value can be all kinds of things. Value is anything that can be bought or earned.

    10. SB

      Okay.

    11. OT

      Not everything can be bought and earned. And I have a whole chapter about that, but a lot of things can be bought and earned.

    12. SB

      Okay, so give me some examples of the most important types of values, values that we exchange in a re- the context of a relationship.

    13. OT

      Sex.

    14. SB

      Yeah.

    15. OT

      Security.

    16. SB

      Yeah.

    17. OT

      Excitement.

    18. SB

      Yeah.

    19. OT

      Emotional support.

    20. SB

      Yeah.

    21. OT

      Child rearing.

    22. SB

      Okay. And do women and men value those types of value differently?

    23. OT

      Of course.

    24. SB

      And what do, what do men value more and what do women value more?

    25. OT

      That's a tough one because not only do men and women value those differently, but men and women value them differently at different stages of their life.

    26. SB

      Okay.

    27. OT

      Like I'm sure when you were doing the bottle service, you were not really thinking whether these women had good maternal capacities.

    28. SB

      No.

    29. OT

      Right?

    30. SB

      No.

  27. 54:32 – 57:14

    How Our Communities Have Evolved Over Time

    1. OT

    2. SB

      But also I, I would have been living in like a community where I could have got... You know, we're living much more isolated and lonely now, so I would have been able, you know, the village would have given me some of those things that I'm looking for in terms of value or would have had a big social structure around me.

    3. OT

      Absolutely. I talk about that in the book, is that we used to live in small communities where we actually had lots of different kinds of relationships with lots of different people and also in extended kin networks, in intergenerational housing, for instance. And so-... with the advent of the nuclear family and the dissolution of real community, we expect our partner to be all things, to be an entire village and an extended family. And that's just really not possible. I mean, the love marriage, in particular, may even be a paradox in terms, because you want kind of, let's say, um, an emotionally stable, safe companion who is also your passionate lover and sexual partner.

    4. SB

      Spontaneous, risky-

    5. OT

      So difficult-

    6. SB

      ... novel.

    7. OT

      ... if not impossible.

    8. SB

      Yeah.

    9. OT

      Like you certainly can't do both of those things at the same time. The best you can hope for is to kind of vacillate between the two of them-

    10. SB

      Yeah.

    11. OT

      ... to kind of create a proportion, just enough passion or spontaneity and risk to keep the kind of bedroom alive, but still maintaining the stability and long-term security of the relationship. It's very difficult to manage.

    12. SB

      I find this difficult. I find this difficult. I find it difficult to be in... I'm in a five-year relationship now. I'm like, how do you, how do you go for another 50 years? Because I, I, you know-

    13. OT

      (laughs)

    14. SB

      ... with the, with the same person and maintain the spontaneity and excitement for 50 years, you know, and being the kind of novel, sexually attractive whatever, while also being stable, safe, predictable, comfortable, present at the same time. Like I feel-

    15. OT

      Very hard.

    16. SB

      ... they feel like paradoxes.

    17. OT

      It's very hard. And you have to be creative.

    18. SB

      Yeah.

    19. OT

      It's part of the reason why there are... that places like Victoria's Secret exist. You know what I'm saying? It's like 21-year-old girls aren't shopping there really.

    20. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    21. OT

      So if you're not willing to actually open up your relationship, then you have to kind of make your partner feel new, which could mean different outfits, it could mean play and entering in and experimenting with different roles behind closed doors. It can also just mean travel.

    22. SB

      Yeah.

    23. OT

      I mean, one thing that really seems to spark sex life in couples is foreign bedsheets. And I think that-

    24. SB

      (laughs)

    25. OT

      ... you've just sort of changed the context, and that's enough of a spark of novelty to bring some of the sexual interest back for the man. I think novelty is more important for men than

  28. 57:14 – 59:24

    Why Absence Can Be A Recipe For Better Sex

    1. OT

      for women.

    2. SB

      One of the things that really works in my relationship that I've observed is just being away.

    3. OT

      Absolutely.

    4. SB

      So I come out here for, you know, I'm out here for a couple of weeks now. I'm not gonna see my... And then I was doing Dragons' Den before this in the UK, so that was... I was away for a while then. In total, I wouldn't have seen my partner for about four weeks. So when I come back, it's kind of like they're (laughs) a new person.

    5. OT

      It is.

    6. SB

      You know?

    7. OT

      I mean, one of the things about what made relationships work back in the day is men didn't really spend a lot of time with women and vice versa. James Sexton, the-

    8. SB

      Yeah.

    9. OT

      ... divorce lawyer, he had this great line on the Soft White Underbelly interview when he was responding to the spike in divorces during COVID when everybody was shut down and forced into close company with each other for extended periods of time. He said that men and women signed up for better or for worse, but not for lunch. It's really hard to just be in each other's space all the time. And the fact of the matter is, when we lived in extended kin networks and communities, men had a bunch of men to do things with, and women had a bunch of women to talk to. And even in the '50s, which is kind of romanticized as the i- the paragon of conservative traditional marriage, that was the time when the man was a traveling salesman, and he was on the road for 200 days out of the year. Having an office has kept more marriages alive than probably any other toy or therapy or intervention on the planet. Like, you need to leave.

    10. SB

      (laughs)

    11. OT

      You need to leave. And it's even harder to do that with the advent of cellular technology. It's like being physically absent doesn't matter if the whole time you're there, I know where you are at all times, because I've put a tracking thing on your phone and I'm constantly communicating with you throughout the day. Like now there's no uncertainty, there's no mystery, there's no unknown. So when we get back together, what do we have to talk about? I'm not interested in you because I believe you're an entirely known entity. You need to have something that I don't know yet to attract my interest and curiosity, which is the spark that eventually potentially leads to passion and sexual intimacy.

  29. 59:24 – 1:00:51

    Is Monogamy Natural? Exploring The Debate

    1. OT

    2. SB

      But what does this say about the very nature of monogamy? Because if you need to le- this doesn't feel like a natural thing. If I go back, you know, we... Once upon a time, we couldn't just get on a plane or go to the office, we would presumably be around each other most of the time. I'm trying to understand if you think like monogamy is, quote-unquote, "natural."

    3. OT

      Oh, probably not. Like, I think that humans are probably monogamish-

    4. SB

      (laughs)

    5. OT

      ... but, like, strict monogamy, which should be really rigidly and explicitly defined by the individuals in question, because there's clearly behaviors that are in the gray zone, like is harmless flirting, cheating? You know what I'm saying?

    6. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    7. OT

      That some people might say, "No, that's just part of the fun of being a social human being, and it's not gonna lead anything." And other people might think, "No, that's totally inappropriate and incorrect." So these things need to be discussed. Monogamy isn't just something that everybody agrees on and understands what that means. But yeah, I think that it's generally not something that we do naturally. One way to think about this is, um, monogamy actually benefits men on a utilitarian perspective, because there's generally more women than there are for men. If you maintain strict social monogamy, we have this many men and this many women, what that means is that even the worst men in society, in that community, can be functionally guaranteed of a

  30. 1:00:51 – 1:05:23

    Is Gold Digging Just Another Transaction?

    1. OT

      wife.

    2. SB

      I want to really close off on this point about, um, exchanging values, but... and that's really what a relationship is. When I spoke to James Sexton-... the divorce lawyer you referenced there, we started talking about gold diggers, and he, you know, would reference divorce cases where there's a 70-year-old significantly overweight man who's, you know, with a 30-year-old woman. And I said to him, "Is that not gold digging?" And I said, "Is that love?" And his response to me, I'll always remember it, was, he said, "Well, it's a transaction. She's getting something from him." And in the words that you've described, it might be safety, it might be, uh, I don't know, money or whatever. And she- he's also getting something from her.

    3. OT

      Mm-hmm.

    4. SB

      Which is, I guess, a feeling. I guess it's an emotional feeling.

    5. OT

      Presumably, he's getting sex.

    6. SB

      Sex, yeah.

    7. OT

      He's getting the opportunity to walk in the door with a beautiful 30-year-old on his arm-

    8. SB

      Yeah.

    9. OT

      ... which is certainly a bump to his ego, but is also good for the social game. The fact of the matter is, is that most women, most men would have sex with most women, but most women would not have sex with most men. So we also know that men's threshold for selection is much lower than women's. Generally, women have more optionality than men do. And so when we see a woman with a man, we more or less assume that that's the best man that she could get given her range of options. Oftentimes, with the men, it's the only woman that would have him. Not quite the same thing. So if a very attractive woman is with a man, then that's an automatic status boost in any social circle that he navigates in, because everyone is going to assume that there must be something really important or significant about that guy, given the fact that we assume that that attractive or beautiful woman could pretty much have any man that she wanted, and yet she's with him. For better or for worse, it's more difficult to know a man's true value, given the w- the reasons why men and women transact in the sexual marketplace. Like, women's value, in terms of sexual marketplace, is just so much more explicit. Like, it's- it's men's downfall that we're too monomaniacally focused on the reproductive cues and the physical attractiveness, for better or for worse. And that's hard for women, because some women have it and some women don't. You know what I'm saying?

    10. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    11. OT

      But for a man when it comes time, like, is he... Uh, it's difficult to even calculate a person's net worth if you have all of their income documentation. Like, you have accountants to do that, right, Stephen?

    12. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    13. OT

      You certainly can't do it on sight.

    14. SB

      No, I don't-

    15. OT

      Like, if I didn't know about your podcast-

    16. SB

      I don't. No, I don't.

    17. OT

      ... and you were just walking down the street with your plain old black T-

    18. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    19. OT

      ... I'd be like, you- you might be functionally invisible.

    20. SB

      100%.

    21. OT

      You know what I'm saying?

    22. SB

      100%.

    23. OT

      And that- that's actually kind of good. It's nice to be able to be incognito and invisible when you want to be.

    24. SB

      Yeah.

    25. OT

      To be so famous that you can't go anywhere without being recognized would be a liability more than an opportunity.

    26. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    27. OT

      But it takes, it would take somebody to be curious about you to learn about all the interesting and valuable things about you and your lifestyle.

    28. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    29. OT

      And unless you advertise that in some way, most women would not go through the trouble of trying to figure that out.

    30. SB

      And that's not the same for a woman?

  31. 1:05:23 – 1:07:56

    Why Men Are Terrified Of Women

    1. SB

      in that video as well was just how desperate men must be.

    2. OT

      Yeah.

    3. SB

      And especially in the- the way that the world has changed following the Me Too movement, and we understand, you know, w- what consent really is, and the- the experience that women have been through. I- I go, there's a subset of men now that are gonna be even more terrified to walk up to someone and say, "Hi, my name is Stephen. Um, uh, can we talk?" Like- (laughs)

    4. OT

      I- I've done so many confrontations with guys who are terrified of being Me Tooed, of being canceled, of being, like, surreptitiously recorded and humiliated on the internet. Especially in San Francisco, which is sort of like the epicenter for progressive feminism and politics in general. I have done cold approaches to get over my own approach anxiety hundreds and hundreds of times-

    5. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    6. OT

      ... in San Francisco, and I have n- never once been slapped or had a drink thrown in my face or had an angry, uncomfortable interaction. Like, the worst I got was I went up to a- a girl, it's like, "Hey, how you doing?" And without even responding, she just sort of looked at me, and then like looked away.

    7. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    8. OT

      And I was like, oof, okay, all right. Not interested. Understood. That was the worst thing that happened to me. I think if you approach women in the right way, you can leave them better than you found them even if they're not interested in having a relationship with you, which most women won't be, by definition. So get used to striking out.

    9. SB

      So what do you say to those men, then, that are scared of rolling up to someone and pro- you know, saying hello? What do you-

    10. OT

      Well, it's all about how you approach them, and you approach them with, first of all, don't ever try to surprise a woman.

    11. SB

      Ah, okay. (laughs)

    12. OT

      Because-

    13. SB

      Boo.

    14. OT

      ... ex- well, a lot of guys do, it's like, they run up, "Excuse me," and they get really close and they get in their face. They're, they're nervous themselves. And you kinda n- It's like approaching an animal, a deer in the wild. You know, it's like, "Here I am." I'm making eye contact. We've made eye contact for a while. I'm getting up slowly. I'm moving towards you here. Here are my hands. Sort of like interacting with the cops sometimes. It's like, "I, I got nothing up my sleeve, and we're gonna do this slow and I'm gonna smile, I'm gonna exude warmth. I'm not gonna get in too close. I'm certainly not gonna touch her."

    15. SB

      Does body language matter?

    16. OT

      Of course it matters. So I have a whole chapter about the game of Please, No in the book.

    17. SB

      Say that again.

    18. OT

      Okay. The game of Please, No. So-

    19. SB

      Please, No.

    20. OT

      ... this is a game that I played at Tisch. So I went to Tisch School of the Arts at NYU to train as an actor. And in my first semester of acting school, we didn't do any acting really. We didn't

  32. 1:07:56 – 1:10:24

    What Really Happens To Beautiful People?

    1. OT

      study scenes, we didn't do plays. We played this one game, and we played this game for th- I think three or four months straight. And the game is called the Game of Please, No. And I've since discovered that this game is the fundamental game of human relationships. It wasn't advertised to me as such, but I since understood that this is the core game at the heart of all human interaction, which is, I'm going to you because I want something from you. Whether it's attention, sex, a dollar, a job, a house, a meal. It's like I'm here because I want something or else I'd be somewhere else.

    2. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    3. OT

      Right? And the default answer is no. Can I have a dollar? No. Hey, could I take you out for a drink sometime? Huh? No. Could I have this job? No. No, definitely not. So, and there's some wisdom to that. Like the, I say in the book, the universe lives closed. If the default answer to the universe was yes, if we just lived in this like genie bottle where if we just think it and we want it, our wishes are effortlessly satisfied, the world, the universe would've been stripped of all of its resources by now. Like if human beings continued to exist, it would be a very desolate and awful place for the survivors, I would think. So the default answer to every request is no. Why? Because it costs nothing to want, but it costs something to give. And there's that inherent asymmetry. So in general, the way to overcome that asymmetry is if I want something, I'll, in exchange for what I want to get from you, I might give you something of commensurate value that you want from me. That's the pro-social solution that has brought people into relationships and society of all kinds-

    4. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    5. OT

      ... is the re- The basis of relationship is the transaction of unequal goods of comparable value. And when that doesn't happen, for whatever reason, no relationship exists, nor can exist. In any case, going back to the game of Please, No. The game of Please, No, as it was taught to me in this acting class always has two players. There's always, let's say, a wanter and a giver.

    6. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    7. OT

      The wanter can only say the word please. The giver can only say the words no and yes. And the giver has to start from a no position. And the game continues for as long as it needs to

  33. 1:10:24 – 1:14:25

    How To Turn A No Into A Yes

    1. OT

      until the wanter can change the no into a yes using only the word please.

    2. SB

      Okay. So how would we do that?

    3. OT

      Well, what you learn, like I was saying earlier, is that a word is both a semantic-

    4. SB

      Yeah.

    5. OT

      ... message-

    6. SB

      Like a logical-

    7. OT

      ... but it's also a container for emotion.

    8. SB

      So you're really leveraging the emotion of...

    9. OT

      And the non-verbal communication.

    10. SB

      Oh, okay.

    11. OT

      If you're stripped of the ability to use your words, you have to use facial expression, you have to use tone of voice, you have to use gesture, you have to use body language. And what you've dec- what you decide, what you discover is that you can communicate all kinds of different intentions without using words at all.

    12. SB

      Okay. So if I pick up this book and I go, I, I, I gesture to pass it towards you, for people that can't see us right now. And I go, please.

    13. OT

      Sure. Yes. Thank you.

    14. SB

      So you've just said yes.

    15. OT

      Exactly. One of the best ways to get what you want is polite request.

    16. SB

      Okay.

    17. OT

      And there was nothing unusual about your request. It seemed like it was a completely normal thing.

    18. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    19. OT

      And here we are, we have good rapport. Why wouldn't I take the book from you, you know? Um, so what I've discovered by watching hundreds and hundreds of those playthroughs is that different strategies tend to emerge in that game that are predictably associated with success. And you see these strategies in cocktail lounges, in corporate boardrooms, in exotic bazaars where you're actually trading spices and whatnot. It's like, it's the fundamental strategies of negotiation, right? These are things like intimidation.

    20. SB

      Okay.

    21. OT

      Seduction.

    22. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    23. OT

      Victimization, playfulness.

    24. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    25. OT

      Friendliness, straightforwardness, quitting. There's all kinds of strategies that have developed that leaving aside the, the moral or ethical implications of those strategies work. And they work by stimulating a certain emotion inside of you, which is manipulation.

    26. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    27. OT

      And if I can use my tone, my words, my actions to stimulate the right emotion in you, then you are going to move in the direction where I want you to go, basically.

    28. SB

      So in the example of me passing you the book, um, I used, uh, I picked up the book, I presented it to you. And then in a very soft tone and with an assuring nod, I said, please, which made it very clear to you. There's a couple of things really going on there. I guess the first is I've gone to some effort to extend my arm-... and now you're gonna have to leave me hanging.

    29. OT

      Yeah.

    30. SB

      Or, you know, the longer up my arms h- have, the more pain I'm getting in my arm from it being in the air. So there's a little bit of a, you know, an obligation on your side to put me out of my, my pain, because this book is quite heavy, lots of pages.

  34. 1:14:25 – 1:16:26

    The Biggest Mistakes Men Make When Attracting Women

    1. OT

    2. SB

      What are the biggest mistakes men make when they're rolling up on a woman? So you said, you know, they might surprise them in some way. They might be, shut down their personal space by getting a bit too close.

    3. OT

      Yeah. Uh, we think most of them are overcompensations for their nervousness.

    4. SB

      Interesting.

    5. OT

      It's, it's scary to approach a girl. And so there's generally two things that happen. One is the men hesitate too long.

    6. SB

      Yeah.

    7. OT

      And then they get weird and stilted. Like they start to think about, "Well, what should I say? I need a good opener." Like, "Okay, that, no that line sucks and oh geez."

    8. SB

      Yeah.

    9. OT

      "Oh, she's talking to somebody now, it's not a good moment." They get too in their head, which generally means they don't approach. But if they do, they're generally so like out of the moment and in their minds that their vibe is just off. And women reject the vibe because they don't come off open and confident.

    10. SB

      How do I get the vibe?

    11. OT

      You start to listen. You start to listen. It's like sales, man. The same approach isn't gonna work with everyone who walks in your dealership. Some guys, they're gonna need the real soft touch and you need to keep a real big distance and not interfere with their own process, 'cause they're gonna sell themselves on the car. Other people need a lot of handholding and a lot of guidance. And it's not obvious which customers are which when they first walk in the door.

    12. SB

      Yeah.

    13. OT

      You have to make some tentative bids and learn to listen to their response and be flexibly adaptive until you find where they're kind of starting to open up.

    14. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    15. OT

      Guy walks into a car dealership says, "Hey, can I help you with anything?" He's like, "Uh, I don't know, I'm just looking around." That was not the right thing. He didn't even make eye contact. He's just like, "Fucking leave me alone." Um, but if you were to say something like, "I personally like it in blue." Like that's kind of a surprising thing. And you might turn it around. It's like, "That's not what I expected you to say. I expected you to kind of give me the hard sell." And that created an opportunity for curiosity, which may have led to a moment of connection, which could potentially lead in the direction of an interaction which can lead to a sale. Like it's very difficult to get a sale without the interaction. So you have to put out tentative bids and learn to listen to how people respond.

  35. 1:16:26 – 1:19:00

    The Most Effective Pickup Line I’ve Used

    1. OT

    2. SB

      Okay. So the car, the person selling the car would say, "I personally like it in blue"?

    3. OT

      Potentially.

    4. SB

      Okay. Just as a way to...

    5. OT

      I don't know, that just came into my mind. I don't know if it's the right thing to say.

    6. SB

      Yeah. But no, it's, I like it. It's quite an i- but it does, it evokes curiosity 'cause then you'd, 'cause then I might respond to you like, "I only wear black so I need something in black." But then at least you have a bridge.

    7. OT

      One of the best pickup lines that I used when I was getting over my approach anxiety in San Francisco is I'd go up and say hi. "Hey. How you doing? What brings you out here tonight?" And I'd say, "I'm actually trying to get over my approach anxiety. How am I doing?" And that led to an in- Like, "What do you mean approach anxiety?" "Well, I don't know if you know this, but it's gonna be really difficult for guys to approach women." "Really? I had no idea." "Yeah, it's a problem I help guys with that all the time. I figured I should probably get good at it myself." "Well, what do you mean? What do you do?" "Uh, I kinda help people." It's like, i- it's like...

    8. SB

      Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

    9. OT

      It's interesting and it's also vulnerable in a good way because it's revealing of my present moment experience. Vulnerability is such a tricky word because it has a lot of negative associations with it.

    10. SB

      Performative vulnerability.

    11. OT

      Well, it's also, vulnerable means wound. It's like where I could be hurt. It's woundability. Like why would I tell you where my Achilles heel is? I don't know if you're gonna be able to use that information well. You know?

    12. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    13. OT

      How do I know you're not gonna weaponize that further down the road, right? But one more useful definition of vulnerability is that I am sharing with you my present moment emotional experience, whatever that is. And that is, makes it easier for women to see you. When you start to share and disclose some of your present moment emotional experience, it's like using the right words for a man. It unlocks their understanding and they can kind of like see you more clearly because you're cr- putting something out there that they can potentially resonate with.

    14. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    15. OT

      They might not, and that's okay. You can just find someone else to play with, right? But with, in the absence of that, it's very difficult for a guy to get anything to happen. And most guys, they, they tone down that emotion. They're very, they can be very robotic. They can be very monotone.

    16. SB

      "Hey."

    17. OT

      "Hey, how you doing?" Um, so one way is guys screw this up because they get too in their head and that makes them stilted and weird. The other way is they try to overcome their nervousness by overcompensating.

    18. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    19. OT

      They get really drunk. They get super bold and handsy because they're trying to be kinda dominant, and I suppose that can work, but, uh, it generally, it generally rubs women the wrong way.

  36. 1:19:00 – 1:22:25

    How To Handle Interactions With Very Attractive Women

    1. OT

    2. SB

      One of the things I've never forgotten from when I was 18 years old when I was reading those books about, um, seduction and pick-up artistry is it talks about how to deal with a 10.... a 10 out of 10, so-

    3. OT

      Uh-huh. What'd they say?

    4. SB

      Well, it basically says you kinda need to be a bit of an asshole.

    5. OT

      Hmm.

    6. SB

      Not- not an asshole in the sense of being rude or whatever, but you kind of need to... So say if you were a 10-

    7. OT

      Mm-hmm.

    8. SB

      ... and we're- and we're at din- I didn't know who you were, but there was a- a group of very attractive women here, and you were the one that I wanted, and you were the 10-

    9. OT

      I wouldn't talk to you, right?

    10. SB

      You wouldn't talk to me, but it, the strategy it says is to basically pay attention to everybody else, and then when the 10 tries to talk to you, go, "One second," and then just keep talking to everybody else. And it's that small communication that I, um, high value that, um, kind of would e- evoke their interest and curiosity. Why does this man not p- maybe pon, like, pander to me like all other men have always done? What is it about him that he's got such confidence that he will give me a slight neg, you know?

Episode duration: 2:22:28

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