David Harewood: The Chilling Story Of How A Hollywood Star Lost His Mind | E185

David Harewood 0:00 I did everything that voice told me to do that night. Had that voice had told me to jump off Thames Bridge, I would've done it. Please welcome David Harewood. (applause) Propelled to super stardom in hit US drama, Homeland. One of our most influential voices on race and mental health.

Steven Bartlett 0:16 I remember reading about a moment where you come home, you find your father's typewriter with one word written on the typewriter.

David Harewood 0:22 Mm. It just said, "Illness." And I didn't quite know what it was, but I knew something was off. I hadn't seen Dad for a while. And then one morning I got up and my mum said, "Don't go into the kitchen," and go straight to school out the front door. That night, that's when my mum told me that Dad had been... (music stops)

Steven Bartlett 0:36 David Harewood was the first Black actor to play this part.

David Harewood 0:41 The hostility that I was met with as a young, Black actor was ferocious. Newspapers, reviews just dismissing me. "He looks more like Mike Tyson than Romeo. What's he doing on the stage?" So I really did feel like I was an anomaly. The whole thing, the stress, the smoke, the overthinking, just ended up making me spiral. That's what led to me just falling into psychosis. I was lying in bed and I just heard this voice in my head. He said he was Martin Luther King. "Even though I'm speaking to you from beyond the grave, I need you to close the gap between good and evil. So you're gonna sacrifice yourself tonight and you're gonna be an angel." And that was the night I was eventually sectioned. I just remember lots of flashing lights and then being in the back of a police wagon. If that order continued, I'm not even sure I would be here today.

Steven Bartlett 1:29 Before this episode begins, I just want to say a huge thank you to all of our new subscribers. 74% of you that watch this channel didn't subscribe before, and we're now down to about 71%. So, that helps us in a number of ways that are quite hard to explain, but simply, the bigger the channel gets, the bigger the guests get. So if you haven't yet subscribed to The Diary of a CEO, if I could have any favors from you, if you've ever watched this show and enjoyed it, it's just to, to please hit the subscribe button. Without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. (upbeat music)

Steven Bartlett 2:10 David, what do I have to understand about your very earliest years to understand the man you are, the perspective you have, and the work you do today? What is the most important context?

David Harewood 2:26 Well, that's an interesting question. What do I need to kn- what do you need to know about me then? Um, that I was probably naive, open, innocent, uh, and probably more, um... probably more conflicted than I thought I was. I, I was a vessel, and into that vessel was just been poured so much, I'll say false information, wrong information, that, um, at some point it had to smash, break. I grew up at a time when there weren't many Black people on television, and there weren't many Black images, that, on television or anywhere. And I think, I think that is s- I think that seriously... I wouldn't say put me at a disadvantage, but I, I, I grew, I grew up with a false sense of myself, and that, that false, false picture, uh, has only recently emerged. Does that make sense?

Steven Bartlett 3:46 Not entirely, unless I get further context. What was the picture of yourself you grew up with?

David Harewood 3:52 Uh... I would say, I, I, you know... I just think I was just way too naive, and way too... way too... That's hard. That's a, that's a really interesting question. I hadn't really thought about that. But I think... it's only in, it's only in recently, recent years, and ha- having asked myself some of the questions that I've been asking myself over these last couple years, and I've really started to get a real grip of the person that I am.

Steven Bartlett 4:33 So who did you think you were when you were, when you were younger? What did you think of the world and yourself when you were younger that was so naive and ill-informed?

David Harewood 4:41 Um... I don't think I was. I didn't really think it was important. I didn't think my color was important. I, and that's why I say I was n- naive. I didn't think my color was that important. I had no concept of myself as a sort of young, Black man. And that's why I say I grew up in a time when there weren't any images of myself, so I couldn't really structure my identity around a sort of solid identity. And, and, and even my, you know, my, my mother was always sort of trying to steer me into a more Afrocentric mindset. You know, I go back to Birmingham where I, where I'm from, and I look at how many of us are in interracial relationships of that generation. We were constantly told to assimilate. It was all about assimilate, assimilate, assimilate. You're not... Even my, you know... I, I heard the one, I heard the phrase one time, "You're not Black. You're normal." Which is so bizarre.

Steven Bartlett 5:44 (laughs)

David Harewood 5:45 It's so bizarre.

Steven Bartlett 5:46 It's such a strange thing.

David Harewood 5:47 So that your identity as a Black person was sort of ironed out. You're, you're just, you're just... You're British, you're English. You're, you're... And, and... So when I came out of drama school, I think, and the world said to me, "You're Black."... was a real sort of wake-up call for me. And seriously contributed to what happened two years after I left.

Steven Bartlett 6:18 Going back to your, your mother and your father, how has their relationship and your early experience with them shaped the man that you are today? Who were they as people?

David Harewood 6:29 Wonderful people in a very, very, um... My mother was extremely strong. And, uh, my dad was a kind of a s- quiet, silent type, really. Uh, very proud. Um, s- uh, b- didn't really speak much. Didn't really, um ... it wasn't, wasn't particularly involved in our education, wasn't particularly involved in shaping who we were. He, you know, he, he was very much hands-off. You know, he, he was a long distance lorry driver, so he was a-away a lot. And when he came back, he would sort of sit and watch the telly in, in peace, and just, you know... I often tried to talk to him when I was a kid, but he, he, he was a very difficult man to sort of open up. Um, whereas my mother was, my mother was always sort of talking, and, and sort of cajoling, and very welcoming of friends, and she was just a really wonderful character. Still is. Very, very funny. But, you know, she tells me now of stories that she used to, you know, some of the fights that she had, some of the battles that she had. When I was writing my book, you know, as I said, we were the only Black family on that street, and she was constantly in conflict with, with neighbors-

Steven Bartlett 7:57 Hmm.

David Harewood 7:58 ... with, um, racists. And she didn't back down. She was very, very sharp and fearless.

Steven Bartlett 8:08 Sounds like my mother.

David Harewood 8:09 Mm. Uh, uh, fearless.

Steven Bartlett 8:14 Your father. Um, y- you write a lot about how hardworking he was.

David Harewood 8:19 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 8:20 Um, the, the lack of affection you've described there, the lack of openness. Um, as you look back now, was there a, is there a, was that, was there a cost to that, to him, and to the family? To you?

David Harewood 8:38 I think so. I think so. I think, I think the fact that he didn't... That's difficult 'cause I, it feels as like I'm criticizing him, and I don't really want to do that. But I, I think it was a loving home. There was a lot of laughter in the house, but that's, you know, he, he loved, you know, the, all the British sitcoms and, of the time, and one of my favorite sounds was the sound of him laughing. I loved hearing him laugh, hear my mum laugh. There was f- the house seemed full of laughter when I was growing up. So there was a lot of ... You know, there was a lot of humor in the house, but there wasn't necessarily a lot of tenderness.

Steven Bartlett 9:20 Hmm.

David Harewood 9:20 And, you know, I, I kiss my kids every morning when they go to school. It's just that, "Why?" But I, I don't know why. It's important to me. Maybe it's just become habit. But I want them to know how much I love them, and I want them to know, um, uh, h- how much respect I have for them, and how much, how proud I am of them. It's important for me to do that. And, and maybe it's because my dad didn't do that.

Steven Bartlett 9:46 Hmm.

David Harewood 9:47 Uh, not, not, not because, not because he, he, um, purposefully didn't do it. I, I just think, just don't think he, he thought it was that important, maybe.

Steven Bartlett 9:58 Do you think he knew how to do that?

David Harewood 9:59 I don't know if he did. I don't know if he did. And, um, uh, but I think that's kind of true of a lot of men of that generation. Showing emotion wasn't very easy for them. And also, I think,

David Harewood 10:18 it's, it's really interesting, a, a friend of mine tell, tells me this story of, of ... It, it, it's, and it's very particular to the '60s and '70s, which is why I'm ch- you know, I was a director and, uh, and, and I'm very, I'm fascinated by this period of late '50s, '60s, '70s England. Because I don't think people understand the level of racism that was present in this country.

Steven Bartlett 10:44 I just got goosebumps then because-

David Harewood 10:45 Well, they don't understand it.

Steven Bartlett 10:47 ... yeah.

David Harewood 10:47 And the idea of being othered, that you would leave your house and literally take your life into your hands. Uh, I mean, I remember randomly getting off a bus and instantly being chased by a group of skinheads, and you would just automatically find yourself running. Now, to, to be, to, to have come here from the Caribbean with ideas of streets are paved with gold, England being the mother country, to co- to have come here with that idea, and to be met with that amount of hostility, to be met with, with that amount of abuse, that amount of rejection, I think it seriously damaged not just my father, but many people who came here in that generation, that Windrush generation. Because it's fascinating to me how many Caribbean parents do not want to talk about that period, just do not want to go there. Because I think it was horrific, and I think it damaged him. I hadn't really thought about that be- well, I, you know, reconsidered it before, but I, I do think...... that that was a tough period for a, a lot of, a lot of us. And whereas in America, you know, movies have been made, plays have been written about that generation, about that, um, period. We've not really looked at it.

Steven Bartlett 12:24 I have to be completely honest. I, you know, I grew up in 19... I was born in 1992. Came to the UK when I was two years old from Botswana. Um, I, I always saw my mum have this, I'll describe her as this like combative, uh, I'd say a slightly combative attitude towards people. And this like general belief that other people were racist.

David Harewood 12:47 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 12:48 And I never understood it. I never understood, I never fully understood it. I just thought she, she viewed the ho- the world as bei- being racist. And as I've done this podcast and specifically spoken to people from the '50s, '60s, '70s, '80s, and, and early '90s, my mind has been blown. Because I don't ge- I didn't get it.

David Harewood 13:08 Of course, you know. And it's interesting as I listened to the wonderful Chris Kamara-

Steven Bartlett 13:11 Kamara, yeah.

David Harewood 13:12 ... and the world that he was talking about. I know that. I've, I've, I, I remember it. You know, growing up in those, in, in... I was born just after Chris, five years after Chris. But those... Which is why he's such a legend-

Steven Bartlett 13:28 Mm-hmm.

David Harewood 13:28 ... for me. Why him, Cyrille Regis, they are legends because as kids, I watched them playing football, knowing full well that 50% of that, the crowd, were giving him so much abuse regularly. And yet he was able to play football, smile, score goals, play aggressively. I was in awe of those guys, because I just thought, I would be scared. As a kid, I was scared, and that's one of the things I've touched upon in my book, is, is owning up to that idea that I was terrified growing up in those days, because you just never knew where a brick would come from, where a, where a, where, you know, your, a car would, a car would sudden- You'd be walking down the street, whistling yourself, hav- having a great day. Next thing you know, (imitates sound) from a car, (imitates sound) from a car, monkey, you know, just monkey noises would just come from nowhere. And you would just tighten, tense up. So I grew up in that environment, and so I, I'm, I'm well aware of it, which is probably go- it goes back to that, your first question about what do I, what you need to know about me. That's the environment I grew up in, so I... It was trying to form a sense of myself. It's constantly been sort of... It's, g- growing up in a period where you're othered, where you're in fear, and not understanding who you are, was destabilizing, I think. And I'm, in a sense, lucky that my house fell down when it did and I was able to put it back together again.

Steven Bartlett 15:22 Where a brick would have come from. You talk about a story of being, I think, five years old where a brick comes through the window-

David Harewood 15:28 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 15:29 ... of your family home.

David Harewood 15:29 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 15:32 C- tell me about that day.

David Harewood 15:33 Regular. Well, I wrote about it in the book and how, how, you know, Saturday mornings was always cartoon morning, you know. Saturday morning cartoons back in the day. Again, you're too young to know. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 15:46 (laughs)

David Harewood 15:46 Um, but it was always, you know, Tom and Jerry and Pepe Le Pew and-

Steven Bartlett 15:52 I love Tom and Jerry.

David Harewood 15:52 It j- It was great. It was just, they, they were just on constantly, so you would sort of, you know, you'd sort of run down and, and watch telly. And, and my, my m- mom's, my mom was famous for her breakfasts. English breakfast, bacon, eggs, toast, chips, all the English, which we used to love. And I remember my mum calling us down for breakfast and running down the stairs and then hearing this smash. And we ran into the lounge, and there was an English breakfast covered in glass, because a brick had come through the window and just there was glass all over our big kitchen table. And we just all sort of stood there in shock. And Mum said, "Go back to bed." We just traipsed back up the road, back up to, back up to bed. But that was the sort of, we don't know where it came from, you know, where it came from, but we were targets.

Steven Bartlett 16:54 Your mum's reaction there, when I read about this-

David Harewood 16:57 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 16:57 ... seemed un- comfortably calm.

David Harewood 17:03 Well, what are you gonna do? You know. And it, she wasn't always calm, and there was times when she, she did, (laughs) you know, grab people by the collars and-

Steven Bartlett 17:13 (laughs)

David Harewood 17:13 ... have people up the w- (laughs) have people up the wall. She was fearless.

Steven Bartlett 17:17 Hmm.

David Harewood 17:18 And, uh, you know, "Don't you ever call my son that's it, get that name again." And she was, you know, she was fearless. But at the same time, you're powerless in that, in that setting. Because you don't know who threw that brick. And, um, you're almost... You know, I think back to it now and think, you know, she, she used to sort of walk me to school and be waiting at the school gate to walk me home. And for me that was, it was great to see my mum's face at the, at the, at the end of school. Um, but I realized later may- maybe why she did that, because when you did go home on your own years later, it was a bit of a minefield. You had to be careful. You were-

Steven Bartlett 18:09 So-

David Harewood 18:09 ... a target.

Steven Bartlett 18:09 ... people don't understand that, especially people, especially people that haven't experienced race- racist abuse. The idea of leaving the school gates and the, the journey home...... being anxious and looking over your shoulder.

David Harewood 18:22 Anxious. There's a good word, that's a good word.

Steven Bartlett 18:24 Yeah.

David Harewood 18:24 Which, uh, you know, we'd, I didn't realize it at the time, but I think it was a huge amount of anxiety. And then the thing that, that the, the amazing thing about it is, you might go a week without it, you might go two weeks without it, you might go three weeks without, and then you, and you relax.

Steven Bartlett 18:39 Oh, shit.

David Harewood 18:39 And then you're normal. And then, bang, a casual Wednesday afternoon, middle of the day, "Nigger." And suddenly, you're right back to being scared. And, uh, I, I, I don't really think my, you know, I, I, I, I, I think my whole sense of self, because you know, you, you do your best to sort of, you do your best to normalize that stuff and think, "I'm not gonna let it affect me." And I always had this, and I, my mother's words ringing in my head, "Don't let it affect you. Hold your head up. Be strong." So you keep thinking, "No, no, no, I'm gonna, I'm, I'm not gonna let this affect me."

Steven Bartlett 19:26 Is that good advice?

David Harewood 19:28 (inhales) Uh, yeah, well, uh, you know, I think, y- yes. Yes, but, um, (laughs) it doesn't always work. (laughs) It doesn't always work. And that, th- the, the, the, the, the, you know, it crystallized for me when rather foolishly I went, I was a Leeds, I was, I don't know why, I was a Leeds United fan, and, and, um, always used to watch, watching Leeds United, they were the champions back then. And they came to Birmingham one year, to, to, to, to play Birmingham City. And like a jackass, (laughs) I thought, "Well, I'm gonna go and sit in the Leeds end." And, uh, back in the day, back in the day, you could, um, at half-time you could literally walk into the ground. So I thought, you know, I think I was about 12, maybe about nine, 10 or something like that, and I at half-time I, I thought, "I'm gonna go and sit with the Leeds fans." Well, I mean, (laughs) that's, the idea of it now, but I walked into the Leeds, and at first, it was just a couple of monkey noises, and then it became like a chorus of monkey noises, and then it became a chorus of, "Goon nigger." And then it seemed like thousands of people were screaming abuse at me. And I heard these, uh, words in my, my mother's words, "Hold your head up. Don't be scared." So I thought, "I'm gonna go and take my seat." And I kept walking down the touchline, but it got so loud that in the end I thought, "I don't wanna sit with these people." So I turned around and walked away, and they cheer, I remember them cheering. But I s- I remember I was really shaken, and I remember to this, th- I remember to this day this groundsman or ward, you know, the staff, member of staff, as I walked out on the ground he le- he shouted, "You all r- you all right, kid?" And I just went, and I just nodded and just walked home. But I was really shaken by it, because I'd done exactly what my mother told me to, but it didn't work.

Steven Bartlett 21:39 In, in your early teens, after that, your father's mental health began to deteriorate.

David Harewood 21:44 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 21:47 What were the, were, were there any events that led up to that? I, I, I remember reading about a moment where you come home, the lights are on and there's, you find your father's typewriter with one word written on the typewriter.

David Harewood 21:58 Mm-hmm. Yeah. It just said illness. Uh, my dad was a prolific sort of organizer and, uh, he started this, he, this darts league, and was always on the typewriter writing out the results and writing out the who's played who and who had won and who was going through to the next round and who needed a trophy and who was gonna, where they were gonna play and what times they played, and he just, he loved the darts. But he just took too much on. And, um, he, he was constantly sort of working at this, organizing this whole thing and organizing the trophies at the end of the season, organizing the meeting, organizing the, he was just always... And I think he was just doing it all on his own. And, um, I, I, I, I just think he just took on too much. And, um, I didn't, well, I, I didn't necessarily al- I didn't necessarily see it coming 'cause I was quite young. But, um, it happened very, very quickly. And I always used to hear my dad go to work in the mornings, we used to hear his keys jingle jangle down the stairs. That was sort of my alarm to get up for school is my dad, hearing my dad come down the stairs and think, "Oh yeah, I've got to get up in a minute." And for a couple of days, I didn't hear it. And then we kept hearing arguments in my, in the, in my mum and dad's bedroom and I thought, "This is, something's not right." I haven't s- haven't seen dad for a while. I haven't heard the jingle jangle down the stairs. Something's off. I didn't, I didn't quite know what it was, but I knew something was off. And then one morning I got up and my mom said, "Don't go into the kitchen. Get changed up in the bedroom and go straight to school out the front door." And, um, I did, and then that night, that's when my mom told me that Dad had been sectioned. So it, it had happened, it happened really quickly, and they'd sort of kept me away from it. But unbeknownst to me, my brothers were holding my dad down in the kitchen because he would, he'd, he'd sort of lost it.

Steven Bartlett 24:29 How do they explain being sectioned to you when you were in your early teens? 'Cause I- you know, I- I would have no idea what that meant in my early teens. (exhales)

David Harewood 24:38 They didn't really, and it- it's- it- it was just, you know, Dad's not well. Father's not well, he's been taken to hospital, and, you know, there's always that gig at- when there was that- there's always that sort of, that, uh, gag at school that, you know, the men in the white coats will take you away. You know, you're cra- that's, you know, you're cr- oh, no, you're crazy, or you're gonna be, you're gonna be taken away. And that's what happened. My dad was taken away. Um, I didn't see it, but I, I knew he was... I knew that he'd been... I know now, obviously I know now being... Over recent years, I know that that's what had happened to him. He'd been sectioned. And when I was sectioned, um, I, I suddenly realized that... W- w- I suddenly reali- especially when I was writing the book, I thought, "That's what had happened to him." And I- and that now, it's only bo- once I'd written my book, and really understood what that was like, having your liberty taken away from you. 'Cause I think that and prison is about the only, being locked up in prison, is about the only times when your liberty is taken away from you. And i- it was only then that I started asking myself, sort of all started looking at my dad's life in sort of retrospect and thinking... 'Cause he hated it, my dad hated it, and was never the same again. When he, when he was released, he was never the same again. And I don't think... I, I think he had a really bad time in there, a really, really difficult and bad time, which I don't think he ever forgave my mother for.

Steven Bartlett 26:24 Understanding what you understand now about the nature of mental health and what causes it, and your own experiences with-

David Harewood 26:29 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 26:29 ... mental health, when you look at why, how your father became to be sectioned, have you got any suspicions about why that happened beyond that he took on too much at the darts?

David Harewood 26:46 I do think that there was a lot of resent- anger built up in him. And you've gotta wonder why... And this is, I only found this out, again, o- once I started writing my book and started looking at mental health, and the numbers of Black... Black people are overrepresented in the mental health system in this country. And what I realized is that, uh, it's, it was a Jamaican psychologist who, who actually performed this, um, study, and he realized that Black people... There's way less mental health in Africa amongst Black, the Black community. There is mental health problems, but way less psychosis and... But there's more in, when they are transmitted to a Western culture. So, uh, there's more mental health, epi- episodes of mental health in England amongst the Black community, and in America amongst the Black community. And I think there's something about, I call it in my... And this is one of the things that my therapist talks about, when you're in a white space, and that's not a derogatory term, but i- it, England is essentially a white space, and I'm sure you've been in rooms where you're the only person of color.

Steven Bartlett 28:03 Yeah.

David Harewood 28:04 The higher up the ladder, you're... Don't they call it tall poppy syndrome, where the higher-

Steven Bartlett 28:07 (laughs) Yeah.

David Harewood 28:08 ... up the ladder you get, the less of your own people you see?

Steven Bartlett 28:12 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

David Harewood 28:12 And I think, you know, my thing, I think, I think my dad had found it very difficult coming from the Caribbean, and coming to England, and dealing with a completely different mindset. I think he'd found that difficult, and, um, resentment had built up. And I, I think I was gonna say a point earlier on that illustrates this, but a friend of mine used to, told me that his dad used to work at an as- on a, on an assembly line, and in the days of, in the '70s, when Jim Davidson was doing his Chalky routine-

Steven Bartlett 28:58 Mm-hmm.

David Harewood 28:58 ... that... And he was the only Black person on the assembly line. Every Monday morning, after New Faces or whatever it was that Jim was on, th- The Comedians or whatever it was-

Steven Bartlett 29:11 Mm-hmm.

David Harewood 29:11 ... doing his Chalky thing, every Monday morning, he would be Chalky. And his dad would laugh and take it, and, and then, you know, throughout the week they'd be calling him Chalky and he'd be (...) develop the name Chalky, Chalky, Chalky, Chalky, "He's Chalky." His dad would laugh, and then he, on Friday night his dad would get drunk and beat the fuck out of him and his mother. And I think that was just the buildup of resentment, of having to live in this place where, yeah, everyone's calling me this name, everyone thinks it's funny, and I'm laughing, but there's a buildup of resentment that he then takes out on his family. Now, I'm not saying m- I'm not saying my dad had that level of resentment, but I think there was s- just something about being here that he f- started to find difficult to live with, cope with, mentally.

Steven Bartlett 30:16 When I read through your book, and also a lot of the stories you've told me today, I mean, I remember one particular story where you got a, you got a girlfriend in school, and then you come into school the next day, her father has said that she can't with you because you're Black, this constant, constant rejection.... social rejection. You used that word earlier on, the word rejection, and it feels so apt because that's really what's, I think, in a psy- on a psychol- psychological level going on. Even going to the football and then being rejected socially from that crowd. And it's constant throughout your story. You know, I- I've read these studies about labeling theory where when the world tells... when you tell, uh, somebody they are something-

David Harewood 30:50 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 30:50 ... in these studies, they- they eventually become it.

David Harewood 30:53 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 30:53 So, y- you know, there's the famous prison study where they said, "You're the guards, you're the prisoners." They had to stop the study-

David Harewood 30:57 Yes. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 30:57 ... because the guards were so harsh on the prisoners.

David Harewood 30:59 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 31:00 And labeling theory says exactly that. Your teacher says, "You're a D and you're going to be a failure."

David Harewood 31:03 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 31:03 The chances are that will actually lower your performance, your- your self-belief. How do you stop that happening when society has rejected you for years, and years, and years growing up, at the most formative time?

David Harewood 31:14 I think... You know, I think I was lucky because I- I do think that, uh, I lived amongst a lot of people who, uh, d- you know, who didn't define you that way. So, I think that was... I was very, very lucky for that. But, uh, I think... I think that person had to... I think that house had to come down, which is what I think my breakdown was all about. The more I learn about it, the more I realize that that image of that young boy, I had to... I had to start again. I had to rebuild my image of self. And, um, that's when I've sort of... A- and it's interesting because I... even though it happened 30 years ago, I'm s- only now just dealing with it because I only found the records. I only did that documentary. I only... All this is recent. And I think if I had talked to you last year-

Steven Bartlett 32:14 Mm-hmm.

David Harewood 32:16 ... I'd probably be in tears by now because so much of this is recent for me and having to deal with a lot of it. I just... I've spent the last 30 years in this sort of cocoon, not really dealing with a lot of this stuff. And it's only since reading my medical records and doing that documentary and uncovering all that trauma... And as I said, the first thing I read when I opened my medical records from 30 years ago, which were the medical records that the BBC found in the bowels of the Whittington Psychiatric Hospital. I had no idea they were gonna give them to me. No idea. I had no idea they even found them. The first thing I read was, "Patient believes he has merged hearts with a young Black boy." And I just thought, "What is that? What i-..." And I just looked through the medical records, and it's all to do with my race and my identity, all of it. I was just confused. I'd sort of lost touch with my identity. Going off to drama school and playing Romeo and Pushkin and doing all these... doing Moliere and Dostoevsky, doing all these European romantic pl- you know, playwrights and Shakespeare and all these different characters and thinking, "My character... My color doesn't matter. I can do all these wonderful things." And then I came out of drama school and every newspaper article was all about my color. Every job I went through was all about my color. I could go for these jobs and not these jobs. And, uh, it just... It was like I d- uh, it- it- it was like I hadn't... It was almost like I hadn't, um, dealt with it, hadn't dealt with my core identity as a young Black man. And it all started to just... I started to overthink it.

Steven Bartlett 34:17 What was your core identity that you hadn't dealt with as a Black man?

David Harewood 34:22 I think just understanding myself as you... th- th- what your first question was, understanding myself in the world and knowing... having confidence in myself. There's too many questions about my identity. I think one of the things I did when I sought a therapist after my documentary was I sought out... Um, I've had therapy many times in my life. But I sought out a Black therapist, a Black male therapist. And that has been really strikingly revealing to me because some of the questions I had, he would kind of say, "Well, why are you think- why do you think like that?" And he would question why I think like that. And, uh, I found it remarkable how he was able to make me understand that a lot of the things that I... a lot of my fears, a lot of my insecurities are only natural. Uh, ma- maybe p- part- potentially because I have, maybe, grown up predominantly in a white environment. And maybe I didn't... Maybe I wasn't comfortable with myself. I'm much more comfortable with myself now.

Steven Bartlett 35:47 What were those fears and insecurities?

David Harewood 35:51 Knew you were gonna ask that.

Steven Bartlett 35:52 Mm-hmm. Yeah. (laughs)

David Harewood 35:54 (laughs) Well, you know, there's that image of the strong Black man.

Steven Bartlett 36:00 Mm-hmm.

David Harewood 36:01 You know, great at dancing, great at sex, great at chatting women up, great at this, great at that. And I felt maybe that I didn't always live up to that. And if you have that idea that you can only be one way-

Steven Bartlett 36:23 Mm-hmm.

David Harewood 36:23 ... as a Black man when the world is telling you that, "You can only be this way," then you sort of don't feel like you measure up. And actually, I've learned, yeah, you can be vulnerable.... that's okay. You can be sensitive, that's okay. You, um, it's okay to be ... not be, you know, Darcus McFly, you know, who just beats down all the girls, dances fantastically, does ... you know, he's the alpha Black. It's okay not to be the alpha Black guy. It's okay. And, uh, that's taken me a while to sort of understand about myself. I think Jay-Z. It was interesting, I think there's a thing about Jay-Z talks about the gold, silver, bronze. The gold ... No, no. I think it's, it's the book called How To Be Black. It's a very, very funny book, but he talks about the gold, silver, bronze, um, Black man. You know, the gold, born in the ghetto, Black wife, Black friends, you know. Silver, born in the ghetto, Black wife, went to university. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 37:36 (laughs)

David Harewood 37:36 Bronze, born in the ghetto-

Steven Bartlett 37:39 (laughs)

David Harewood 37:39 ... white wife. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 37:40 Oh, shit.

David Harewood 37:41 You know. And you sort of, you sort of get less and less ... It's almost like you get less, less Black-

Steven Bartlett 37:45 Must be copper or something. (laughs)

David Harewood 37:46 ... the more you take ... Yeah. And, and, and then you see ... But then you see the effects of that in schools, where you go ... Where you have teachers who will tell me that, you know, you get a really intelligent Black kid, but just to fit in with his peer groups-

Steven Bartlett 37:57 Yeah.

David Harewood 37:57 ... he won't work as hard, because he fears the, the more intelligent he is-

Steven Bartlett 38:02 Mm-hmm.

David Harewood 38:02 ... the less Black he is. The brighter he is, the less Black he's seen, the more ... And I hate that.

Steven Bartlett 38:07 Isn't that funny, being rejected by the white community but also the Black community?

David Harewood 38:10 Well, that's exactly what I had.

Steven Bartlett 38:11 Yeah, yeah.

David Harewood 38:12 So, so, you know, when I came out at RADA, so I had ... I had tough ... I had this sort of ... When I started being an actor, you know, the Black community were like, "You're gonna be a what? That's too white. You're, you're too white, man." And then I went to RADA and kind of did all this Shakespeare, all these plays, and then I came out speaking like this and everybody went, "You're way too white." A- and so you're getting rejected by the press and critics because you're Black, and then you're also being rejected by the Black community because they ... You're ... You don't look or s- you don't sound like-

Steven Bartlett 38:44 (sighs)

David Harewood 38:46 ... y- you know, man from the ends. You don't sound like, you don't talk like that. So I really did feel like I was an anomaly.

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Steven Bartlett 40:52 At age 23. I think it's age 23, you, um ... That's the t- Around the time you were sectioned.

David Harewood 40:59 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 41:00 This is a very strange way of asking the question, but in hindsight, knowing now what you know about why you were sectioned-

David Harewood 41:06 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 41:06 ... what was going on in your life, your mind, your environment, the press, professionally, personally, what would you have had to change, avoid, do differently before then to have avoided that happening?

David Harewood 41:29 That's a million-dollar question. This really is a million-dollar question, and I'm not sure there was any, uh, anything I could've done. I think that ... I think it had to come down. As I ... I'm, I'm, I'm great believer that in trauma there's a lesson. That there was something in that, for me, of value. I don't think anyth- I don't think ... I mean, I was very lucky that I came out of it-

Steven Bartlett 42:02 Mm-hmm.

David Harewood 42:03 ... but I do believe, and as I have got older in my life, and having written a book and having had so many people tell me since writing that book, uh, so many people say, "Thank you I'm Not Crazy." "Thank you, you've really, you've really articulated everything that goes on in my ..." Some of the frustrations that come. So I've only given voice to a thing, to things that a lot of people experience, just I took it to an extreme, I think. And I think it's probably, uh, as an artist, as an actor, it's benefited some of my work-

Steven Bartlett 42:39 Mm-hmm.

David Harewood 42:40 ... it's enabled me to take things perhaps a step further than maybe what some people can take things. I think it's given me a perspective. (smacks lips) I think there's something of- I think there was something of value for- o- in it for me. (inhales deeply) I don't... I think it had to happen. I don't think I could've done anything to have stopped it, which is (inhales deeply) both, um, scary and, um, worrying.

Steven Bartlett 43:12 What do you remember about that time? Because it seems to be quite a blur when you recount the events. You- it's almost like you have these abstract memories of diff- different moments.

David Harewood 43:19 Well, it's interesting, because I do believe I w- uh, started this process thinking that it was gonna be fun. Because, uh, j- it's like manic, uh, m- you know, manic depression. It is often pre- psychosis. Like m- like- it's, it's often preceded with a mania, a heightened adrenaline rush, dopamine. Your- the dopamine levels in your brain are heightened, and it's quite exciting, 'cause you've got, you know, not getting sleep, it's often drug-induced, and you are really sort of operating at this quite high level. And I re- uh, I remember doing some pretty extraordinary things. I remember brief moments of real sort of mental acuity, and, uh, (exhales sharply) dare I say it, there was almost moments of fun. (smacks lips) But it's n- n- usually preceded by a crash. So I sort of went into this thinking, "I'm gonna, I'm gonna remember all the fun things I did, some of the extraordinary things I did." And there, there were some really wild (laughs) things.

Steven Bartlett 44:33 Okay.

David Harewood 44:33 I was experimenting with a sense of reali- what was real and what wasn't real, thinking I could do anything, and it was, uh, bizarrely exciting.

Steven Bartlett 44:48 Give me an example of something that y- y- you recount that is...

David Harewood 44:52 Well, it's interesting because my, one of the consultants that was in the documentary tells me that, um... 'Cause I told- she asked me f- for an example, and I, I said, "I was walking, walking down the street one, one morning. I hadn't slept all night. And, uh, there was a guy across the road, and he had this huge Doberman. Huge, kind of, d- massive, muscular..." And I'm g- n- normally quite afraid of dogs. And I just walked up to this- I walked up to this guy, said, "What's that dog's name?" And he... Jeb or something. And I looked at this dog, and I screamed the dog's name, and I looked at this dog quite aggressively in- right in its face. And the dog just literally lay on the f- (laughs) literally lay on the floor and started whelping, whelping on its back. "Nyooh!" Just freaked out. And this consultant said to me that often dogs can pick up, um, some, some, uh, energies, disturbed energies. And I'd obviously really... And this guy was really freaked out. He said, "What have you..." The dog was literally whelping and moaning on the floor. And I just fixed this dog with no fear and screamed its name right in its face. Just freaked the dog out.

Steven Bartlett 46:18 That

Steven Bartlett 46:19 night you were sectioned, I read a- I read that you, uh, you hailed a taxi, and it was ultimately the exchange with the taxi driver that...

David Harewood 46:25 I mean, this was an extraordin- I mean, that was an extraordinary... And again, it was the voice of Martin Luther King that was in my head. You hear voices, and you... When you, when you... Uh, uh, one of the aspects of psychosis, which is what I suffer from, you can hear voices. You have illusions, allusions, delusions that seem incredibly real to you. (smacks lips) And, um, I was lying in bed, and I just heard this voice in my head, "Hoo, hoo, hoo, hoo, wake up." I'm like, "This can't be true." Sat up in bed, looking around the room, thinking, "Where's that come from?" And this voice was in my head. Sounds totally bizarre. But this voice was in my head, and he went on to say, "Look, I don't wanna tell you who I am right now, because you're gonna be really scared. But you have to go to Camden. You have to walk into this store. Don't be surprised if it's open. It's 3:00 in the morning. Don't be surprised it's open. Whatever you do, do not turn around." And it was all these things I had to do. "Whatever you do, don't do this. Whatever you do, don't do that. But then go to- go into this store, walk to the back of the store. There's gonna be one suit hanging up on a rack in the ba- at the back of the store. You need to put this suit on, and then when you turn around, don't be surprised to find out that it's 2:00 in the afternoon." He said, "I'm gonna, I am going to close the space-time continuum, and we are gonna close the gap between good and evil." This whole thing, and it was... He said... It ended up being Martin Luther King. He said he was Martin Luther King. And he said, "When you, when you..." (laughs) 'Cause I played Martin Luther King as a kid, and it was my first, the first acting thing that I'd ever done. And he said, "When you played me as a c- as a child, I entered your heart. And when I was..." He said, "Even though I'm speaking to you from beyond the grave, I need you and two or three other people in, in the world to activate something and close the, the, the, the gap between good and evil." And he said, "So you're gonna sacrifice yourself tonight, and you're gonna be an angel." And this voice was, I swear to you, was like really in my head.And I'm sobbing in my (laughs) bedroom, listening to this voice. He says, "So tonight's the night." And that was the night I was eventually sectioned. But I got up, got my clothes on, and walked all the way to Camden. Obviously, the shop was closed. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 49:09 (laughs)

David Harewood 49:10 It's three o'clock in the morning and I'm-

Steven Bartlett 49:11 (laughs)

David Harewood 49:11 ... out of my nut, so, um, and I was exhausted. And I thought, "I've got to go home." And flagged a cab down, and I didn't have any money. And, uh, I don't remember... I just, I just remember this driver, looking around, and then the driver pulling over, and then, um, s- lots of flashing lights, obviously the police. And then being in the back of a police wagon. And then sitting in a cell. And all this was just... I'm in and out of, uh, what seemed like a dream for me. I didn't... I- I- I was in and out of... I remember being in this cell and then going to Magistrate's Court in the morning and not remembering my name. Didn't remember my name at all. Didn't know who I was. Couldn't remember who I was. And, um, the, uh, duty solicitor sort of talking about my mum and then said my dad's name was Romeo and I went, "Romeo. Hang on a minute. I played Romeo. I played Romeo. I played Romeo. I played Romeo. David, David Hailwood." Like s- that's... I used my a- I used my sort of career to get back to who I was. Then left, went to court. And had no idea what was happening in this court. I mean, I was... The judge was speaking at me and I was just a mess. And I walked out of court and again, lucky, but some woman who'd been in the court, uh, walked out and said, said to me, "Are you okay?" And I said, "I don't think so. I don't know, I don't know who I am." And she get, she said, "Where do you live?" And I said, "I can't remember." She said, "What's your nearest tube station?" And sh- I said, oh, you know, "Highbury & Islington." And she flagged a cab down, gave the driver £10 and said, "Take him to Highbury & Islington." And I got out at Highbury & Islington, walked home and my friends were waiting for me, 'cause they'd been looking for me all night, couldn't find me. And that's the ni- that's the day that they knew something was... Even though they'd been sitting with me and visiting me for the last couple of weeks, 'cause they knew something was off. They knew I wasn't well. And that's the weird thing about mental health or particularly psychosis. You see somebody acting very strangely. Somebody you love, it could be your son, your husband, your mum, your... They just suddenly start acting out of character, becoming obsessed with something or it's like they just suddenly change and you know, you know something's wrong, but you're sort of hope- desperately hoping that they sort of come back. And that's sometimes, you know, they don't and you have to make that call to have them sectioned. And luckily for me, my friends had been there because if they weren't there, I think I would've been in real trouble. I would've been in real trouble. If that would've continued, I'm not even sure I would've been here today. So I was very lucky.

Steven Bartlett 52:37 How long did that process last before you were sectioned of the slo- the sort of gradual deterioration?

David Harewood 52:42 Well, I- I think it was happening for a while because I re- I remember working and not feeling great. So I'd say at least two or three months, there was a slow progression of not sleeping, overthinking, trying to hide that, drinking to sort of self-medicate. I knew I wasn't well, but I thought I could handle it.

Steven Bartlett 53:14 I- I'm trying to understand how much of that you believe is p- uh, a physiological, biological s- situation or maybe predisposed by biology versus circumstance, experience and the things that you've been through.

David Harewood 53:31 I think... And, uh, again, when I'm reading, you know... Speaking to my con- the consultant who was working on my documentary, it's a combination of both things. Your propensity, your- your- your... Uh, the chances of you having a breakdown are sort of reliant on levels of stress, lack of sleep, what's called ACEs which are these fundamental, like, people who, uh, uh, experience trauma in life. I mean, for me, I think it was my parents' divorce and not dealing with that. Not dealing with that at the time. So much of it has just been squashed, not dealing with some of the trauma that was in my life. And I think a lot of it was coming out, slowly coming out then in that one slow progression of being deeply unhappy.

Steven Bartlett 54:35 Why? Why were you deeply unhappy? I read that and I thought, "What?" It wasn't-

David Harewood 54:40 I- as I say, I came out of drama school and the hostility-

Steven Bartlett 54:47 Mm-hmm.

David Harewood 54:48 ... that I was met with as a-

Steven Bartlett 54:50 Mm-hmm.

David Harewood 54:50 ... young black actor...... was ferocious.

Steven Bartlett 54:53 Newspapers...

David Harewood 54:54 Newspapers, reviews, just dismissing me, completely dismissing me. And I'd sort of left drama school with a bit of heat. People were like all really excited to see what I was gonna do, and the school was very, very excited to, you know... 'cause, you know, everybody was talking about this young, young kid coming out of drama school, what he's gonna be, you know. And I just got slaughtered. Slaughtered.

Steven Bartlett 55:16 All about race?

David Harewood 55:17 All about race. I played Sloane in Entertaining Mr. Sloane.

Steven Bartlett 55:22 Entertaining Mr. Sloane? Yeah.

David Harewood 55:23 Who is quite a devious, bisexual character. Murder, he's actually also a murderer. (laughs) And, um, the... And I remember there was one reviewer, a Black reviewer who said, who was outraged that I'd taken the part, 'cause I was letting the side down. And he said that people should go and demonstrate their disapproval of Mr. Harewood's choice of employment. And I, I read it, I was like, "Wow." Put that down. (laughs) And I noticed that night, people... And I, I, Sloane has this really kind of tough monologue where he talks about abusing somebody, and in the middle of this monologue, I saw people get up and walk out, and I noticed that they were, they were Black. And then the next night, more Black people started walking out. And it was always in the middle of that monologue. Black people would get up and walk out. And it was really tough to deal with. And it was really tough to try and en-... And they were sort of (imitates hands smacking) chupsing and (imitates person crying) as, as they walked out. And sort of, it was really disturbing me, b- because I had to get on with the play. (laughs) And that was only the second act, there was another three. So the whole way through that play, I was sort of coping with, "Why do they walk out?"

Steven Bartlett 56:53 Get on with the play seems to be quite an apt metaphor for that period of your life.

David Harewood 56:58 Yeah, and I wasn't really dealing with it. So, s- dealing with the fundamentals. So I think that's when the drinking started. To, to be able to get through the play, I started drinking. To be able to... I started self-medicating, so I was drinking a lot before, during, after the show, smoking after the show. And the whole thing, the stress, the smoke, the overthinking...

Steven Bartlett 57:23 Lack of sleep.

David Harewood 57:23 Lack of sleep, just ended up making me spiral.

Steven Bartlett 57:29 How long... From being sectioned to getting back to acting, how long was that sort of recovery process, per se?

David Harewood 57:36 It was a lot quicker than I realized actually, which I d- you know, which surprised me. I thought it was gonna be months, but it was... I was sectioned for about five days initially, and then again in Birmingham for another five days, um, and then the recovery was just about convincing my mother that I was okay, 'cause she was con- (laughs) she was convinced that it was acting.

Steven Bartlett 58:01 (laughs)

David Harewood 58:01 It was acting that sent me crazy, and that I was never gonna act again, and that I was never gonna go back to London again, and I was never gonna be allowed to act again. Uh, so she tried to watch me like a hawk for about a month. Maybe a month, six weeks. And eventually, uh, she, she allowed me to travel back down to London and get on with my career.

Steven Bartlett 58:30 I sat here with, uh, Maisie Williams, um, the G- young Game of Thrones actress.

David Harewood 58:34 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 58:35 And she talked to me about how act- acting was a form of escapism in her life 'cause her home had such little joy, that acting became this place, almost this therapeutic place-

David Harewood 58:43 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 58:43 ... where she could, I guess in some respects, abandon that identity. And I, I remember reading from this, like, Swedish philosopher, which I wrote about in my book o- Once Upon a Time, who said that when we, um... If we try and abandon ourselves, um, we'll ultimately des- bear in mind, he wrote this 200 years ago, so he was just, you know... If we try and-

David Harewood 59:00 Still true.

Steven Bartlett 59:00 Yeah. Yeah. (laughs) If... (laughs) It's still true, that's why I said... (laughs) Yeah. That's why I really... It always stayed with me. If we try and abandon ourselves and we're successful, we'll despair at the fact that we've abandoned ourselves and our identity. If we try and abandon ourselves and we're unsuccessful, we'll despair at, uh, being unsuccessful in our, uh, in, in our attempts to become other than we are.

David Harewood 59:16 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 59:16 And he concludes in his, like, big philos- philosopher piece that the only true way to be happy is to accept that which you... who you are, and to not abandon yourself. Um, he, he... You know, and that's his conclusion after this long study that he's done on people. Um, it... That kind of ran... F- it felt almost quite true when I think about what acting is, in many respects. For, for Maisie, it was this, this attempt to abandon the self, and actually to not confront the issues. And then she ultimately had to, at some point, confront those issues-

David Harewood 59:44 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 59:45 ... and what had gone o- on in her family home, what her father had done to her.

David Harewood 59:48 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 59:49 But acting was her escape, at 12 or 13. I- is any of that reminiscent to... Or, does any of that ring true, specifically this idea of, like, the role acting played in identity for you?

David Harewood 1:00:02 Acting is the only space I feel 100% confident in.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:08 Why?

David Harewood 1:00:11 Because everyone knows their lines. Everyone knows where they're gonna go. Everyone knows the movement. Everyone knows the play. On stage, I just feel... That's probably my... That's where I'm at my happiest.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:22 Why?

David Harewood 1:00:24 I- i- it's... I can't explain it. I just become... It's... You become somebody else. You know, uh, uh, when you're... when you're... That's the true nature of it, I think, of art. It's like somebody who paints, I think. You know, they, they wanna create something, and they're free to create. Van Gogh could be in tort... he could be tortured but he can still produce an amazing piece of art.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:46 You said there though, that, "I'm happiest when I'm acting-

David Harewood 1:00:48 You can distill that.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:48 ... because I become someone else." So what does that say about oneself...... if I'm-

David Harewood 1:00:52 Well, myself, I'm full of... There's insecurities, there's doubts. There's, there's decisions to make. There's about... Which is what, which is why life, I think, is so unique. I don't know what you're gonna say next.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:05 Right.

David Harewood 1:01:06 None of us knows. That's what's so beautiful about it, and so fantastic about it. But on stage, it's a controlled environment. So for those two hours, I can be King Lear, I can be Othello, and I completely put myself into that. And it's, that's... I feel, it's like I'm a... I guess you would, I guess you could say... I mean, footballers say that. You know, on the pitch, no problems. George Best, on the pitch, a genius. Off it, an alcoholic. Somebody who can't con- somebody who can't cope. M- Maradona. On the pitch, a genius. Off the pitch, something else. You can't cope with life. Life is uncontrollable. Life is full of contradictions, full of difference, full of failures, and success... It's just a, it's, it's, it's, uh, it's very difficult to distill. Whereas on stage, well, and I... You know, y- I can play that. And I can put myself into that, and pour myself into that character, and I feel great. It's the most freeing place. For me, it's the most freeing thing I could, c- can, I've ever experienced. And that's why I love it so much.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:31 That's what Maisie said. She said it was, for her, she said actually it was the only place she experienced joy.

David Harewood 1:02:36 Yeah. I can completely, completely understand that.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:40 But what did that... So, not to be repetitive, but what does, what is that saying about the nature of our, our life in terms of... Why, why can't life be joyous, as equally joyous? What, what would we have to do to make our, our acting like when we're king-

David Harewood 1:02:54 Well, that's the secret, I guess. And that's, that's the secret of sort of finding a place where you can be. And I'm sort of on the way. You know, where you can experience joy. And I think that's a, that's a... It's a lifelong struggle. But you have to work at it.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:11 2019, you, was the, the first time... 2017, 2019 was the first times you really opened up about your experiences, in terms of-

David Harewood 1:03:19 To the press. I'd always... I'd, I, I mean, I... That's, (laughs) that was the shock of it, is that I tweeted, 2017, tweet, randomly tweeted, "As somebody who's had a breakdown, just wanna say, look, have a great..." It was Men- World Mental Health Day.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:33 Oh, yeah.

David Harewood 1:03:34 "As somebody who's had a breakdown, just wanna say, look after yourself today. Get some help if you can." Got on the plane, flew to America, got off the plane, 50,000 retweets. (laughs) Calls from ITV, calls from the BBC, calls from The Guardian, calls from The Independent. "Oh, my God, you had a break..." And I just completely forgot I hadn't gone public with it. I've told everybody. It's been a bit of an anecdote for me. A bit of a late night drunken anecdote for me, that I'd had a breakdown and spent time in a mint. But it's only since doing that, and I've really looked at it, and really understood it. That moment of oversharing has led to all of this. It's led to my first book, it's gonna lead to my second book. It's led to this reckoning, which would not have happened had I not have sent that tweet.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:22 2019, you, um, produced a documentary.

David Harewood 1:04:25 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:27 Everybody talks about that documentary. Really incredibly powerful. But, but just artistically brilliant in so many ways. But so many people talk about it. You know, I, I even had members of my team put in big brackets, "It is so good," when they were t- referring to your documentary. They don't usually do that. It was really profound and important in so many ways.

David Harewood 1:04:45 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:46 How did that change your life?

David Harewood 1:04:51 Again, because, um... (sighs) And it's, this is really odd, but I'd s- I'd, I'd seen that documentary almost a thousand times, 'cause I watched it nearly every day.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:01 (laughs)

David Harewood 1:05:02 A year before it went out. The night it went out, I was absolutely terrified. And I, soon as I saw adverts for it, I panicked. And I was (laughs) nearly called the BBC and said, "I don't want to go."

Steven Bartlett 1:05:16 (laughs)

David Harewood 1:05:16 I, I just, "Take it off, take it off." I was really scared. And r- and s- and, and that, that was really unusual for me, because I'd seen it, and I'd, I was happy with it. But going public with it was a whole another thing. And I was really scared, really anxious. And the whole, I think the whole house picked up on it, because my kids went to bed early. My wife went to bed early. Uh, uh, d- do you know. And sh- w- she watches, uh, you know. She went to, and she was like, she was... I, uh, afterward she said she was worried that, you know, the kids might get ribbed at school, or, you know, "Your dad's this, your dad's that." And I hadn't even thought about that. And I suddenly thought, "Fuck," you know, "I, I'm letting people in here." And I was really scared. And I remember I, that night, I had a therapy session online with my therapist. And when we finished it, it was kinda dark, and I thought, "Well, it's got half an hour left to go. I'm not even gonna watch it. I'm just gonna go to bed." And I was just about to go to sleep, and see, every single device in my house was beep, brrr, diddly, brrr.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:26 (laughs)

David Harewood 1:06:26 Everything was just buzzing. And it was, I was like, "God." And then, like, and then the house, h- house phone went. And I jumped out of bed to, to, didn't want to wake the house, and it was my mum. And the first thing she said was, "Brilliant." And that really calmed me down. I went, I went, on my watch when, she said, "I've just watched it." She said, "Brilliant. Well done, son." (sighs) Huge sigh of relief. And then started looking at all these messages and emails, and they were all really emotional and, like-... and moving. And, um, went to bed and got up in the morning, went, take, take my dog for a walk like I normally... And I could not walk 10 feet-

Steven Bartlett 1:07:10 (laughs)

David Harewood 1:07:12 ... without complete strangers coming up to me in tears. I'm s- I swear to God, going, "I just wanna say, Mr. Harewood, thank you." And, um, and normally when you're an actor people leave you alone. You know what it's like when you're on the telly, people kind of go, "Oh, that guy. Be- that's, uh, that's that guy off the telly." But suddenly it was, "Mr. Harewood," not the guy from the vo- Homeland, or the guy from Supergirl, or the guy from... It was, "Mr. Harewood. Excuse me, Mr. Harewood, I just wanna say thank you so much." Tears strolling down their face. "My dad had a breakdown and we never talked about it, and just wanna say, the fact that you... We all suddenly started talking about it, and we started talking about Dad, and..." I'm blubbing, they're crying. (laughs) Then I go, "Thank you very much," walk off. Somebody else, "Excuse me, Mr. Harewood, I just wanna say..." And I go, I suddenly realized how common it is, and how everybody was touched by it, because you just don't talk about it. There's a shame attached to, to particularly Psychosis, and particularly to being taken away. There's a shame attached to it. (laughs) For some reason, maybe it's 'cause I'm an actor, I have no shame. So me, a recognizable, successful actor talking about it, allowed them to talk about it. Got a call from mine saying, "Phone's ringing off the hook. People are talking about Psychosis," because they didn't, they didn't... That now they understand what happened to their son. Now they understand what's happening to their... Who's na- only just been sectioned that morning. And on this book tour I constantly do signings, and, um, n- nearly every single time I sign, I go to one of these book tours, there's somebody who comes up to buy the book for it to get signed, and they're crying, and they go, "I've just come out of a mental institution. I just wanna say, seeing you, it gives me hope that I can get better." Or there's a mother who says, "My son's just been section-" crying her eyes out. "My son's just been sectioned. He was, uh, away at drama school. He was away at school, uni-" 'Cause it happens normally when kids go to university, or when they go away from home, and they might smoke, they might drink, they might find themselves in a strange environment. That's when it happens. And, uh, the amount of times I've had to kind of get up and just hug-

Steven Bartlett 1:09:34 (laughs)

David Harewood 1:09:34 ... the stranger and just say, "They'll get better."

Steven Bartlett 1:09:38 I, I sometimes sit here with people and there's a moment where they let the wall down.

David Harewood 1:09:41 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:41 And, uh, uh, the wall can be, um, a number of things. Sometimes it's sexuality. Sometimes it's something that they've been holding inside of them. You know, they might've told friends, but letting the world in and then feeling that feedback, that, that, you know, people didn't, weren't attacking them. They didn't lose their job. And, and that sometimes can be quite a liberating thing. From then on, once we've let the wall down, whatever it is, and really let people in and see our, our deepest insecurities or our fears, life can feel different. We can be more open and honest and vulnerable. And-

David Harewood 1:10:09 I can't say that happened because I then had three years of dealing with it.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:13 Yes. Tell me about that.

David Harewood 1:10:14 (laughs) Because I thought, "Oh, okay, I've let the world in," and, as you say, where's that moment of-

Steven Bartlett 1:10:20 Mm-hmm.

David Harewood 1:10:21 ... (sighs) relief?

Steven Bartlett 1:10:23 Yeah.

David Harewood 1:10:23 And it was torture, because I couldn't cope with all these people coming up and saying, "Thank you so much."

Steven Bartlett 1:10:33 You'd been to a therapist.

David Harewood 1:10:33 Normally you've got that shield. As I said, you've got that shield as a recognizable face where people don't bother you on the train, people don't bother you in the street. But they were, and they were coming with these really emotional stories. Some people, some people's parents died being restrained. Now, I, I talk about seven policemen jumping on me and giving me what's called an emergency tranquilization. I talk about that in my book. How I survived that, I don't know, because countless people have died like that, Black people being restrained by police. The amount of crim- the criminalization of that, the criminalization particularly of Black people in that period of illness, of psychosis, is... Look at the people in America. You... People shot because they're acting strange. They're in, they're in a moment of medical crisis, but they happen to be naked running down the street screaming. You will get shot. People don't understand it. People have been arrested. People have been... One guy knew he was having... One guy I met knew he was having a breakdown, went to the hospital to... They refused to treat him. Went to another hospital, they refused to treat him. Started banging on the door, they called the police. He got arrested, he got into, he got sent to prison, and it was only in prison that he got treated. (laughs) And so this whole book has, has really opened up the whole how particularly people of color are criminalized at a moment of crisis by being arrested and then being treated. Like for me, it was only when I showed the book to my consultant, she said, "Do you realize you were given three times the legal doses of tranquilizers?" And I said, "Why is that?" She said, "Well, it was, it's..." And then I... Again, once the book got out, I had somebody contact me saying, "This is standard practice, because most people are afraid of big Black men. So most times a large Black man is sectioned, you will get knocked the fuck out. For no medical reason other than we're scared of this big guy, let's just up the dose here." And that's all it was. So it just... All this stuff was coming out, all this stuff was coming at me, and I couldn't really process it. And I remember going into my therapist and just crying my eyes out 'cause it's too much. It's too much, I can't cope with it. And funny enough, my medical records that I find in the documentary-I hadn't opened those notes for two years, since I got them, since filming it. But before I wrote the book, and I knew where they were. They were in my flat in Vancouver. I knew exactly where they were. And once I decided to write the book, I remember flying back to shoot s- the next season of Supergirl, and we flew into quarantine 'cause it was a couple years ago.

Steven Bartlett 1:13:31 Hmm.

David Harewood 1:13:31 So, you had 14 days on your own.

Steven Bartlett 1:13:33 Mm-hmm.

David Harewood 1:13:33 And the first thing I did, walk in the flat, got my medical records out, and I read them cover to cover. And that was really tough because you're reading your disturbed self. Everything that I'd said, done, was re- was recorded. So, I'm reading all the stuff I did and getting flashes of moments that I thought, "Fuck, that's where that memory comes from." Taking a piss in the middle of a office and just the most weird stuff that I did and said.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:04 Is it scary to know that it's, you're capable of going, getting to that place?

David Harewood 1:14:10 Yes and no. And, and, eh, eh, you know, again, I think of myself, thinking about the acting side of it, you know, I've always had this ability to, not method, but I really throw myself into a character, and I love that. (breathes deeply) And I think maybe there's part of me that having pushed myself me- having let myself go, not many people go there. I literally went crazy, crossed the line into unacceptable behavior, where your behavior is deemed, "We have to take you away. Unsafe for yourself and for others. Sectioned." I've crossed that line. So, for me now, I think, in acting, anything up to that line (laughs) is fair game.

Steven Bartlett 1:15:05 (laughs)

David Harewood 1:15:06 Fair game. And I love it, and I, that's why I was, will, will push, push myself, and I look for characters who are like that because, or who do push. Uh, that's what I don't know, that's what makes acting so, so great for me and so exciting-

Steven Bartlett 1:15:22 Could-

David Harewood 1:15:22 ... because I can behave like something, somebody else.

Steven Bartlett 1:15:24 But even reading about, even reading about psychosis as someone that's never been through it, I'm gonna be... It, it makes me realize that it's completely possible for me to find myself in that situation.

David Harewood 1:15:36 Absolutely anybody.

Steven Bartlett 1:15:37 And that, and that's what made... 'Cause, you know, I, when I grew up with mental health, I thought it was something that happens to other people.

David Harewood 1:15:42 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:15:42 And then you, and then you get a flavor of it, right, yourself. And you go, "Fuck, we can all, we all have, uh, mental health." And, and reading the stories of psychosis and how a very normal young man can quite quickly, apparently quickly.

David Harewood 1:15:58 Very quickly.

Steven Bartlett 1:15:59 Yeah. But, I mean, you, from what you've described, it's a series of events over time, but apparently very quickly fall into that situation, in some respects, makes me realize that, you know...

David Harewood 1:16:11 We, we are very highly strong individ-... We are... I mean, the brain-

Steven Bartlett 1:16:16 Yeah.

David Harewood 1:16:16 ... you know how incredible that is. It's an incredible muscle. An incredible muscle. There's thousands of, of, of, uh, firing electro-... Thou- thousands every day just going off in our brains. Some of them misfire. And y- some of them very quickly can lead to you taking your own life. And, you know, I know how having, you know, having been there... And I says, I was... I'm just lucky that... I think my doctor said it, that he said, "You know, we're lucky David is a, a, a calm... essentially, a clown." Because my psychosis played out in all sorts of silly ways. But that... I did everything that voice told me to do that night. Had that voice had told me to jump off Thames Bridge, I would've done it. I would've done it. So, I've met people who the voice told them to throw themselves in front of a... As that young girl in the documentary said, "Throw yourself in front of the next white van." And she did. And it hit her.

Steven Bartlett 1:17:28 (sighs)

David Harewood 1:17:30 It's... You know, th-... It, it is, it is a very powerful thing. And it can happen to anybody.

Steven Bartlett 1:17:44 Where do you find yourself today? So, you're three or three or four years on now from that documentary coming out, and you've been on that journey as you describe it of rebuilding the house and...

David Harewood 1:17:55 Yeah. I think, you know, it's taken me this long to... I think I've come through... I think I was really in pain. (breathes deeply) I didn't realize it at the time, but I think I was really... Especially when the documentary went out, I was very, very vulnerable. And it really was painful. I'd... And I... It was uncomfortable. And I used... I get... I would get very emotional. I'd be in Tesco's, and somebody'd come up to me as I bought my sausages (laughs) and say, "I saw your documentary," and I would just go. They'd go. I'd go.

Steven Bartlett 1:18:31 Why?

David Harewood 1:18:33 Being reminded of it... It was... They would make me cry because they'd tell me about their uncle, and they'd start going... I don't know. It's just something about the helplessness of seeing a loved one acting very out of character. And some of them don't, don't recover because you don't understand it. So, I, I, I, I used to find it very emotional. And I think I've moved through that period of vulnerability into a period of healing. And I think I'm in that healing period now. If I said to you... If you just... If we'd have done this-... doc, this podcast last year, I don't think I'd have got through it like this. It would have... And every now and again, it come, I find a rising emotional level as I'm talking about it now, because I know it sounds very weird. Yeah. I feel like everyone's, must be sitting there, thinking, "God, he's nuts," or, you know. But I've sort of dealt with that.

Steven Bartlett 1:19:31 Was there ever any regrets about doing that documentary?

David Harewood 1:19:34 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:19:35 Really?

David Harewood 1:19:35 Yes. Which all disappeared the morning after I, it went out. The, the, the regrets were all the neg-

Steven Bartlett 1:19:42 Oh, before. Okay.

David Harewood 1:19:42 All the regrets were. And then as, and maybe afterwards, there was like, "Maybe I've said too much."

Steven Bartlett 1:19:47 Hmm.

David Harewood 1:19:48 You know, maybe people don't now see... 'Cause since then, I've done a lot more, a lot more documentaries. And, um, more documentaries than I have dramas. And I've been back in England now for a year. And in America, I was playing leading characters.

Steven Bartlett 1:20:06 Hmm.

David Harewood 1:20:06 Three-dimensional, authoritative characters. And I haven't had a single offer of anything like that since coming back. And that's been really worrying. I suddenly thought, think, "Well, maybe I've said too much." Or maybe I'm not, you know... And, and, you know, and I thought may- maybe I've crossed the line. But I don't care anymore. And I've sort of, sort of gone, "Well, I'm embracing who I am now."

Steven Bartlett 1:20:32 Sor- sorry, you, you've, since you came back-

David Harewood 1:20:34 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:20:34 ... from America-

David Harewood 1:20:35 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:20:35 ... you haven't had an offer to play leading characters?

David Harewood 1:20:39 Not one.

Steven Bartlett 1:20:39 And do you have a suspicion that that's to do with-

David Harewood 1:20:42 I th- I worried that. That's what I'm saying when you say-

Steven Bartlett 1:20:44 You worry that, yeah.

David Harewood 1:20:44 ... you know, you, you, you talk about do I think. There was a fear of that. I don't think that's the case.

Steven Bartlett 1:20:49 Yeah. But it's just-

David Harewood 1:20:51 But, but again, those are insecurities and fears.

Steven Bartlett 1:20:53 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

David Harewood 1:20:54 And maybe I've said too much.

Steven Bartlett 1:20:55 Yeah.

David Harewood 1:20:55 Maybe people feel now, or you, o- one, one reviewer said of David Hale, "All we see him now is in documentaries." I said, "But the only reason you see me in that is because I'm not gonna play some shit role."

Steven Bartlett 1:21:05 Hmm.

David Harewood 1:21:06 I want complexity. I want chal- a challenge. So I'm finding that in the world of documentaries. And I really enjoy doing that. (page turns)

Steven Bartlett 1:21:14 This has never been done before. Ever. Keeping a Diary has fundamentally changed my life. It's the single thing that has advanced my personal development more than anything else that I've done. I always say there's no personal development without self-awareness. You can read as many books as you like, but if you can't read yourself, you'll never learn a thing. This is the world's first diary that listens to you, understands you, and then provides you with tailored support from the world's leading experts in health, finance, work, and relationships, so that you can overcome the things that are limiting you in order to reach your highest potential. A limited number of these diaries are gonna go on sale in November, and the waiting list is open now. So go to thediary.com and add your name if you wanna come on this journey with me. (page turns)

Steven Bartlett 1:22:03 Your career as an actor, um, and now as an entrepreneur and many other things, and a director, unbelievably, um, successful, unbelievably successful, um, against many, many odds. Why you? Yeah, you have the talent. You're a class clown. You said that, you know, back in s- the school days and all these things. You're a funny guy. But that's not enough. I know lots of funny people. They're not actors.

David Harewood 1:22:25 Hmm. I don't think that's for me to say.

Steven Bartlett 1:22:27 No, but this is, this is why it's such a tough question. Because I actually think only you would real... You know, people might have told you along the years. But I really think that when you look at your peers, that's one way I've, I've tried to figure myself out, is what makes me different from these other, my peers in my industry?

David Harewood 1:22:41 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:22:41 And I go, "Oh, uh, that's a thing I'm particularly good at, that bit there."

David Harewood 1:22:45 It's interesting, though, because, you know, and again, maybe I'm oversharing, but me and my therapist, we'd, we, we talk. You know, sometimes I'll... You know, when I first started to asking about this not living up to this ideal Blackness, he said, "Well, one of, part of the reason why you have been so successful is because y- you are this... You can go, you can be over here, you can be over there. You're formless." And in a, and I love that Bruce Lee always says, you know, "Be like water." You pour water into a cup, it's a cup. You pour water into a bottle, it's a bottle. You pour water into a teacup, it's a teacup. I haven't tried to be one thing. And I think some actors come out and think, "I'm gonna be like this, and I'm gonna be like that." And I haven't. I changed my voice because I didn't want to play Brummies all my life. So I learnt the RP. I can do st- If I've wanted to do street, I can do street, wh- which has always used to piss me off when I was young, 'cause then people go, "Oh, he's a bit too rada." It's a charac- I play characters. But because you're a, I don't know, maybe Black actors don't play characters, they just play Black people. I play characters. And I think that s- that USP that I've had, that I like playing characters, has enabled me to change. And it's also what's constrained me, because as I said to you, when I came out of drama school, you would, you weren't an actor, you were a Black actor. These days you're allowed to be an actor. John Boyega is an actor. Daniel Kaluuya is an actor. He's not a Black actor. When I came out, I was a Black actor, and I found it so constricting. I'm more than this. I can play anything. And that's may- You know, that's what I think is my, of my generation, that's probably one of the things that I, perhaps gave me my unique USP.

Steven Bartlett 1:24:46 It's funny, the things that often give us our USPS are also entirely linked to the things that give us our difficulties and our struggles. And it seems to be the case from what you've said. It's funny, ca- 'cause what I heard from all of that is that your versat- your versatility as an actor came from the versatility that you, you've had to demonstrate in your real life as well.

David Harewood 1:25:05 100%. And I think that my experience, particularly getting out, b- you know, getting out of a mental institution, acting my way out of an inst- (laughs) institution, uh-It's all been good training. And I think, you know, my crossing that line has given me that USP.

Steven Bartlett 1:25:25 That kid that came out of RADA, if you could have a chat with him if he was sat here, you could just say a couple of sentences to him. The sentences that-

David Harewood 1:25:32 I would 100% tell him... And I tell this to all young actors, to all young people, "Be prepared for the tough times." People think it's gonna be, life is gonna be roses, and people think it's gonna be easy. And yeah, things are great now, but be prepared for when things get a bit rocky, because they will get rocky. Tough time... You know yourself in business, it's not all about winning. Sometimes you learn your best lessons in failures. So I would, would just... And again, and I talk about this with my therapist, that I didn't take care of my younger self. I di- I didn't take care of him, so now I try and take care of my younger self. And I always try and tell people, "Look after yourself. Really look after yourself, because..."

Steven Bartlett 1:26:24 What does that mean to you, look after yourself?

David Harewood 1:26:28 Uh, control what I can control. And don't... If I don't get a job, I don't get a job. I can't, there's nothing I can do about that. I can control how I feel about it, and just think it wasn't for me. And right now, as I said to you, there's thousands of things that are going my way, and thousands of calls are going... Um, acting, maybe not, but that's okay. It'll come round, maybe it'll come round. I can't control that. I can control what I can control. So, I've just got to keep myself sharp, look after myself, don't allow... I could easily allow myself to get down now, 'cause I've not been working. But I'm, I'm busier than I've ever been, outside of that. Creating this company, looking to re- create other work, doing documentaries, meeting people. It's, it's a very exciting time for me. And I wouldn't have had this time had I been starring in some show. So, there's benefits to having time on your hands.

Steven Bartlett 1:27:31 When you said that c- about controlling what you can control, it made me realize that... This word popped into my head. I- I almost imagined myself stood at a crossroads, and one path was like, "Control what I can control," and that says, left, acceptance. And then on the other hand, the right turning is the resentment that you said your father had, which is that slowly, slowly, slow insidious buildup-

David Harewood 1:27:52 Yeah. I can't.

Steven Bartlett 1:27:53 ... of like resentment towards the world-

David Harewood 1:27:54 Can't do it.

Steven Bartlett 1:27:54 ... and it's a choice.

David Harewood 1:27:56 You can't go that way. And I'm determined not to go that way. It's keep it open, keep attracting good vibes. And at the moment, that's where it's leading. And it's very, it's a very exciting time. I've only been back a year as well, so who knows what's gonna happen?

Steven Bartlett 1:28:12 We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the previous guest asks a question for the next guest. Before I ask you the question, I actually

Steven Bartlett 1:28:17 was really intrigued, 'cause I know you've just, you started a production company.

David Harewood 1:28:20 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:28:21 What was the thinking behind that, and how's that going? It's a new challenge.

David Harewood 1:28:25 It's very exciting and, uh, you know, uh, I think over the last couple of years, I've seen how some people... I've been involved in projects and I don't... They haven't exactly been run very well. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:28:37 Hmm.

David Harewood 1:28:38 And I think, "Well, I c- I, you know, I've now got the experience to know I can do that job. I, I know I'm bringing my A game, but if the people above me aren't bringing their A game, it's gonna make it tough."

Steven Bartlett 1:28:51 Hmm.

David Harewood 1:28:52 So, I'd like to bring excellence to everything that I do. I, that's what I think I do, is I bring excellence to everything I do. So, I want to put some excellence out there.

Steven Bartlett 1:29:04 And what d'you want to make? What kind of things?

David Harewood 1:29:06 Documentaries, dramas, give myself some good roles.

Steven Bartlett 1:29:09 (laughs)

David Harewood 1:29:09 Um, why not? You know. But ask questions of, of the audience. Work in a different way. Create work that isn't being written yet. Why wait for somebody else to write it? Create it yourself. I am 57 years old.

Steven Bartlett 1:29:25 You look about 35. (laughs)

David Harewood 1:29:26 Thank you.

Steven Bartlett 1:29:27 (laughs)

David Harewood 1:29:28 A- an- and you say to yourself, "Well, why isn't that role come along yet?" Create it yourself. And that's one thing the youn- younger generation are doing, brilliantly. Starting their production companies, you know, valuing themselves. And I think that's, um, something I really wanna do. Put