FBI’s Top Hostage Negotiator: The Art Of Negotiating To Get Whatever You Want: Chris Voss | E147

1. 0:00 – 1:27

   Intro

   1. CVChris Voss0:00

      Two of the three remaining hostages were killed, and they were shot by friendly fire. That was the first time that I'd worked anything where people had gotten killed. (music) Former FBI kidnapping negotiator.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett0:10

      Best-selling co-author, and the founder and principal of the Black Swan Group.

   3. CVChris Voss0:14

      I'm Chris Voss.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett0:15

      How important is it generally in negotiations to listen?

   5. CVChris Voss0:19

      Whether it's business or law enforcement, if I take the time to, to really hear somebody out in our first deal, then every deal after that will come to me faster. It's critical.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett0:31

      I'm so compelled to ask you, like, what is the cost that we don't get to see of your job?

   7. CVChris Voss0:34

      You know, you get, you get really wrapped up in your work, and I think you tend to become distant in your personal life. The closer you are to someone, sometimes you just... It's really harder for you to see things from their perspective. The truth sometimes is a knife to the heart, right? Like, you go through a traumatic event. Are you traumatized by it, then never recover? Or is there post-traumatic stress growth, where you took that and decided to be better than you ever were before because you never wanna let that happen again?

   8. SBSteven Bartlett1:09

      So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is the Diary of a CEO, USA Edition. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

2. 1:27 – 3:03

   Early years

   1. SBSteven Bartlett1:27

      (music) Chris, you've lived a extraordinary life for many, many reasons, which I'm sure we're gonna go into. But, um, I guess my first question is, what do I need to know about your upbringing, your early years, if I am to understand the man you are today?

   2. CVChris Voss1:46

      I, uh, I think really that my father just required that, that we work hard and that we figure stuff out. Like, my father was an entrepreneur. And then no matter how old you are, even... And I started working for him probably when I was about 11, but the downside of working for a guy that would never ask you to do anything he wouldn't do himself, if there isn't anything that he wouldn't do himself just 'cause it needed to be done, then, like, you get asked to figure out some crazy stuff. Like, you know, middle, middle-class entrepreneur, you know, little- blue, blue-collar, you know, guy. And I remember, I think I was about 11, he decided he wanted a, a new garage in the backyard, and we had to get rid of the old garage. And, you know, he handed me and my 13-year-old sister crowbars and said, "Go out and tear down the old garage." (laughs)

   3. SBSteven Bartlett2:34

      Hmm.

   4. CVChris Voss2:35

      So you just gotta, you know, you just gotta figure stuff out. And so I really grew up in an environment of working really hard. It, he never preached to us ethics, but we were, you know, very ethical, you know, honest, hardworking, and figure stuff out, which is, if that's your attitude, there isn't that much you can't do. And that was kind of drilled into me at an early age. Figure it out, work hard, be honest.

3. 3:03 – 9:13

   Beginning of your career

   1. CVChris Voss3:03

   2. SBSteven Bartlett3:03

      So if I hit fast-forward on your, on your life from that point and I go into your days in the, the SWAT team for the FBI-

   3. CVChris Voss3:11

      Right. Yeah.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett3:12

      ... how long, how long were you working in the S- the SWAT team with the FBI?

   5. CVChris Voss3:16

      Uh, I was, I was technically a member of the SWAT team for about a year, and then, you know, I was in, on a Pittsburgh FBI. I was on that SWAT team, and then I got transferred to New York, and I decided to try out for the FBI's equivalent of the Navy SEALs, the FBI's Hostage Rescue Team.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett3:34

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CVChris Voss3:35

      And so I tried out for that team, and I re-injured my knee. So I wasn't... I, I never technically made that team, nor when I was in New York was I on the New York SWAT team, but I had been on the SWAT team in Pittsburgh for about a year.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett3:48

      You injured your knee during training?

   9. CVChris Voss3:50

      Yeah. You know, it was originally, uh, tore it up originally in college, and my view is, you know, the worst things that have happened to me have, have always led to better stuff.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett3:59

       Hmm.

   11. CVChris Voss4:00

       I would never have become a hostage negotiator if I hadn't torn up my knee. And so, you know, then when I was trying out for the Hostage Rescue Team, then I re-injured it, and, uh, I went, went to, uh, a doctor to have it rebuilt for a second time. And at that point in time, I thought, "Well, I don't know how many times they could put Humpty Dumpty back together."

   12. SBSteven Bartlett4:21

       Hmm.

   13. CVChris Voss4:22

       So I love crisis response 'cause you gotta make a decision. I'm, I've been very much a decision-oriented guy. You know, President Kennedy talks about the dangers of comfortable inaction. I've always hated that. So, you know, I wanted to st- stay involved in crisis response. We had hostage negotiators. Uh, my son and I like to joke that one of the Voss family mottos is, "How hard can it be?" And I remember thinking, "How hard could it be?" You know?

   14. SBSteven Bartlett4:49

       Hmm.

   15. CVChris Voss4:49

       They, they talk, talk to terrorists. I talk every day. I could talk to a terrorist. (laughs)

   16. SBSteven Bartlett4:56

       When you, um, when you injured your knee and you, you're thinking about what to do with your life, I, I read that you had a chat with a lady, um, about-

   17. CVChris Voss5:04

       Right.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett5:04

       ... options, and she-

   19. CVChris Voss5:05

       Yeah.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett5:05

       ... basically rejected you and said, like-

   21. CVChris Voss5:07

       Yeah, yeah. Said, "Go away." (laughs)

   22. SBSteven Bartlett5:09

       Who was she?

   23. CVChris Voss5:10

       Uh, uh, she was the head of the hostage negotiation team for FBI New York. She was on, uh, one of the terrorism squads close to mine, and I knew she was in charge of the program. And, you know, I thought, you know, the willingness to learn was adequate, and so, you know, I sought her out to express my interest and kind of presented myself like, "Ta-da. Here I am. I'm wonderful. Look at me. I'm willing to learn." And she was just like, "Go away. Everybody wants to do this. It sounds cool. Everybody wants a T-shirt." She asked me about, you know, any previous experience or credentials I had. I didn't have any, one after another. I was like, "Nope, nope," no education, no background, no experience, none of this, none of this, none of this. And finally, she just said, like, "No, you can't do it."... stop bothering me. (laughs) It was like, "Gotta be something I could do," you know? I've always kind of been proactive. I didn't know I was... There's a theory that I, uh, principle that we operate on now, which is, never ask advice from somebody you wouldn't trade places with, or never take direction from somebody who hasn't been where you're going. And I just thought it made sense to go to the right person and ask. Which is kind of how I got into the FBI in the first place. And I said, "There's gotta be something I could do. What is it?" And she said, "You know what there is? Go volunteer on a suicide hotline. But until you've done that, don't bother me." And it just seemed really obvious to me. Okay, you know, this is somebody who knows. I'll do it. And that's how I got in the FBI, really. And so I went and did it, and I went back to her and I said, "You know, I'd, I've been volunteering at a suicide hotline for the last five months." And she's like, "You what?" She was shocked. She said, "I tell everybody to, to do that. Nobody ever does it." When I went back to her, I said, "I'm including this story in the book." She said, "You know, I told over a thousand people over the course of my career to volunteer on a hotline, and only two people did it, and you were one of them."

   24. SBSteven Bartlett7:22

       Hmm.

   25. CVChris Voss7:22

       And I thought, "That's just... That's so obvious."

   26. SBSteven Bartlett7:27

       What was that like, that suicide hotline? Five months, you did that.

   27. CVChris Voss7:30

       I actually volunteered there for a total of three years, and then I got involved in the board and the funding and the operation. And I taught there, too, uh, because I was so into it. It was so valuable. Um, I went there to learn a skill, and I ended up learning a skill and serving the community, which then was... There ain't no better secondary bonus than to do something that benefits you and have it benefit everybody else, too.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett7:56

       Difficult, no?

   29. CVChris Voss7:57

       Uh, it... Well, if you take the training you're willing to learn, the training was phenomenal. And I went there to learn, so I soaked it up like a sponge.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett8:05

       Emotionally difficult?
4. 9:13 – 14:28

   The nature of human behaviour in business negotiations

   1. CVChris Voss9:13

      So, human behavior is human behavior, period.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett9:15

      What is that triad?

   3. CVChris Voss9:16

      Well, um, the way I learned it way back then was, you know, there's, there's, um, uh, the victim, uh, the protector, and the persecutor. And someone who comes on a hotline really portraying themselves as a victim, they're trying to draw you into being the protector or to give advice. You know, "I'm, I'm... I, I need your advice," might be what they would, uh, literally say. And then if you're dumb enough to give advice, then they switch from being the victim to the persecutor and they attack you for your advice. And then as soon as you back off, then they go back to being a victim again, to try to lure you into giving them advice so that they can attack your advice. And so what they told us, you know, the earmarks of watch out for somebody trying to lure you into giving advice versus being a great sounding board, helping them discover the answer on their own. And then in 2002, much later, I ran across Jim Camp's book, Start with No, and he talked about effectiveness in business negotiation, helping your counterpart discover the best answer. Because if they discover something that's mutually beneficial versus if you offer it-

   4. SBSteven Bartlett10:42

      Hmm.

   5. CVChris Voss10:42

      ... if they discover it, it's their idea and they're gonna do it. If you offer it, you're giving them advice, and they got no emotional ownership and they're less likely to do it. So, he called it helping them discover the best deal. And back in the... On the hotline days, it was just guided discovery, helping them discover the best outcome.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett11:05

      From those three years volunteering at the, the suicide prevention line, was there anything else that you really learnt about the nature of human beings, um, that has stayed with you still to this day in business and, and your days as an FBI negotiator?

   7. CVChris Voss11:18

      Yeah. Well, you know, still, still pul- still actually going back and, and pulling the lessons out of it. Um, and it, it's... You know, people are, uh... M- their thoughts are most dominated by loss. Um, what are they worried about losing? What's their vision of loss over the future? Daniel Kahneman won the Nobel Prize in 2002, behavioral, um, uh, prospect theory, uh, economic Nobel Prize on human behavior, which is loss looms larger than gain. Some people are putting it at a two to one ratio. Nobody ever puts it at less than two to one. Loss stinks twice as much as an, as an equivalent gain. I've heard people talk about be as much as nine to one.... which is why researchers are having trouble putting an exact number on it. So, sometime- somewhere between two and nine times loss, where your vision of the loss is gonna determine your behavior. And that was really- and we taught on the hotline and taught in, uh, hostage negotiation, look for the loss. Somebody's taking hostages, they've suffered a personal identitly- identity loss somewhere along the line, and there's probably a triggering event in the last 24 to 48 hours. But look for the loss. And then Kahneman comes across in 2002, Danny Kahneman and Amos Tversky. Tversky had died by the time they awarded the Nobel, uh, Prize, which is why he didn't get it along with Kahneman 'cause th- they're not giving it after somebody's died, saying that, "No, this is just human behavior." Period. Period. Not just hostages, not just people in crisis, but it's the single dominating influence of all human decision-making. Not the only influence, just the biggest. And so learning how to cope with that on the hotline is exactly what we're doing these days in all our interactions.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett13:15

      Is there a way to, like, leverage that to- to your favor when you're negotiating with someone to-

   9. CVChris Voss13:19

      You can. You have to be really careful with it, which is really the whole reason to be in- use empathy as an approach, 'cause if you don't use empathy, um, then you're the hostage-taker.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett13:34

       Hmm.

   11. CVChris Voss13:34

       Or you're trying to use leverage against them. I mean, it's- it's such a blunt force trauma concept that if- if you don't do it gently, uh, with empathy, versus sympathy, you know, empathy is- is not the same as sympathy, but you're gonna seem like a hostage-taker yourself if you start out by saying like, "Look, man, I know you got a lot to lose if you don't make this deal." Well, that's trying to trigger loss, but you- I seem like a hostage-taker myself if I do that.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett14:08

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   13. CVChris Voss14:08

       So, I gotta work my way into a position where I gotta get you to realize that that's the case.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett14:17

       Quick one. We bring in eight people a month to watch these conversations live here in the studio when we're here in the UK and when we're in LA. If you wanna be one of those people, all you've gotta do is hit subscribe.

5. 14:28 – 26:52

   The first hostage negotiation job

   1. SBSteven Bartlett14:29

      When you became a hostage negotiator, when was your first real job?

   2. CVChris Voss14:34

      Yeah, it was a Chase of Manhattan bank robbery.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett14:37

      Bank robbery?

   4. CVChris Voss14:37

      And- Yeah, with hostages, which although it happens all- you know, in the movies all the time, you know, Bruce Willis, Samuel L. Jackson, Kevin Spacey, Eddie Murphy, they're negotiating the hostages out of banks in every movie about it. In real life, it's a really rare event. Like, wh- it was a bank robbery with hostages in New York City, and there hadn't been a bank robbery with hostages in New York City for over 20 years. Now, it's- people get taken hostage in bank robberies, but generally, the bad guys are gone before the police show up because they know if the police get the place surrounded, their chances of getting away are low.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett15:21

      (laughs)

   6. CVChris Voss15:21

      So, they're gonna be gone, but to trap bank robbers in a bank with hostages is really, really rare. And that happened about a year and a half after I got out of the negotiation training, and I was still volunteering on Suicide Hotline, so my skills, you know, you fall to your highest level of preparation. I was ready to- I was ready to go when they put me on the phone 'cause I'd been... Negotiation's a perishable skill, and I'd been working at it. My skill level was really high at the time.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett15:53

      Are you nervous when you get that phone call about that bank robbery?

   8. CVChris Voss15:57

      Uh, no, I was ready to go. I mean, I was doing it because I wanted to- I wa- I wanted to get involved. I wasn't doing it to get the T-shirt. You know, I was doing it 'cause I wanted to get involved. And as a matter of fact, like, I was never asked to go. A friend of mine had taught me, and b- having made a mistake previously, I had learned the lesson of just show up. If something's going down, show up. Um, I heard this advice from a government official not that long ago, and he said, "Run to trouble. Always run to trouble." There's a whole bunch of reasons for that, whether it's business or law enforcement. One of the nice things about running into trouble, running into a, you know, figuratively, theoretically, running into the burning house, you don't get criticized as much. You know, you run into trouble- If you're running into a static situation or something a bunch of people have been dealing with for a while and it's just been sitting there in deadlock, and whatever you do, people are gonna criticize you. You know, 'cause they failed, and you're doing something different, and they don't wanna see you succeed. But if- if you're running at- you're running into chaos, you run into trouble, you know, the criticism is much lower.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett17:16

      Mm-hmm.

   10. CVChris Voss17:16

       Y- you know, nobody's dealing with it. Somebody's gotta do something. Decisions have to be made. It's a great strategy. Run to trouble.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett17:24

       Mm-hmm.

   12. CVChris Voss17:24

       And- and I had- and I'd come to, uh, to like that a lot. So, I'm sitting at my desk in New York. My buddy Charlie walks up and says, "There's a bank robbery with hostages in Brooklyn. Let's go." I looked at a police detective colleague 'cause I had an interview scheduled that morning. I said, "Can you cover the interview?" He says, "Yeah, I got it." And we go, uh, to the bank, and we show up. And a team forms, FBI and NYPD both show up 'cause it's a bank. We know the PD negotiators really well, our Commander Hugh McGowan, super sharp guy, knew what he was doing. He integrated the team. First negotiator on the phone was a, uh, PD detective. He points at me. He says, "You're the coach."We stood up the rest of the team around Joe, the original negotiator. Joe talks the situation into stalemate, which is not a bad thing, 'cause the threat level's not coming up. And, uh, Lieutenant McGowan looks at me and he says, "Okay, you're up." And then he handed me the phone.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett18:31

       And what was your d- job at that point? What was the- the- the, the bank robber asking for and what was your job, uh, your objective?

   14. CVChris Voss18:38

       Well, we didn't know it at the time, like, the bank robbery was actually the classic great CEO negotiator. Like, the great CEO negotiator is gonna act helpless at the table, 'cause he doesn't want you to force him into a commitment. Yeah, I found, I found this out some years later when I was learning negotiation at Harvard. You know, they call it a business strategy, blame somebody who ain't in the room. So, a great CEO negotiator is gonna be like, "Look, man, I got a board of directors. Like, I gotta be careful what I commit to here 'cause th- this board of directors, I- I do, you know, I do the wrong thing, these guys are gonna fire me. You know, they're gonna throw me right out of this company." And- and- and if the guy does that, he's got all the power in the world. He don't care about his board of directors. He just doesn't want to get backed into a corner. So, the bank robbery, we get on the phone with this guy, the- the- the guy who orchestrated the whole thing, and he's like, "Man, I'm scared of these guys in here. These other- these other guys that I'm with, man, they are dangerous. Like, I'm scared of them. They might hurt me. So, I gotta be careful what I say to you. Oh, here they come now! And I gotta hang up the phone." And he was- he was making it all up. You know, initially, our initial assessment is this guy has in- inadequate personality. He's scared to make a decision. Complete smokescreen on his part. So, you know, we're- we're in the- we're in the- in the negotiation for several hours, and we got the bank surrounded, and then the investigators on the outside. And this is a- a residential commercial area of Brooklyn, so there are cars everywhere. And they identify the owner of every vehicle on the outside and talk to them, except there's one van out there and it belongs to this guy. And as it turns out, this guy is running a cash courier business that services this bank. And they can't find this guy. He is nowhere to be found. So, they go to his address and they say, "Hey, do you know this guy? And will you come to the scene of the bank and listen to the voice, 'cause we're running the negotiations on speaker outside to the commanders?" And the witness comes in and says, "Yeah, that's- that's- this guy's name happened to be Chris also." So, they voice ID this guy, and he has never given us his name. This is another great technique. If we meet and I don't give you my name, it unsettles you. You don't feel you've connected with me. And this guy would not give us his name. So, you know, we're- uh, we got a voice ID on him. When the lieutenant says, "You're up next," he says, "I want you to confront this guy about his name as quick as you can. And we're not gonna do a normal smooth handoff. You're just gonna start talking." Normally, the protocol is if you hand off from one negotiator to another, the- the second guy comes on. He says, "Look, I've been here the whole time and I've heard everything that's going on, and here's everything that I've heard." 'Cause you don't need the other guy on the other side saying like-

   15. SBSteven Bartlett21:43

       Hmm.

   16. CVChris Voss21:43

       ... "Where do I start with this guy?" You know, uh, uh, "Have you been here listening? Do you have any idea what's going on?" It's a smooth transition. But a lieutenant, his gut instinct is like, "Yeah, we're not gonna do this. This guy's a manipulative guy, and in a really subtle way, we're gonna start taking back control, and we're gonna start by not doing a smooth transition." So, I get on the phone. I'm talking to this guy. Now, this is a cagey dude. We shift with no intro. So, what does he do? In order to remind us that he's got hostages, but also not raise the threat level, 'cause he's gotta genuinely be- be concerned that the snipers are gonna put a red dot on his forehead and the next thing that's gonna happen is he's gonna be at the pearly gates explaining his actions over the last 24 hours.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett22:30

       (laughs)

   18. CVChris Voss22:31

       He goes and gets a hostage and puts her on the phone. We haven't- we'd been there five hours. We had no confirmation of the condition of the hostages other than him saying, "I'm taking care of the girls. Everything's fine. As a matter of fact, I gotta hang up the phone 'cause they're hungry and they wanna get something to eat." All- all kinds of smoke screens. So, I'm on the phone and I hear this female voice come on and go like, "I'm okay. I'm okay." And I'm- and I'm like, "Uh, who- uh, who's this? What's your name?" "I'm okay." And then that's the last I heard of her. He comes back on the phone, pretends like this didn't even happen. So, I'm like, all right, this is a cagey dude. We're gonna go forward. I'm gonna find a way to hit him with his name, but do it gent- gently. So, I started talking about his van outside, which he knows is out there. He just doesn't know that we've identified it. And I said, "You know, we got a van out here and, uh, we found the owners of every van and spoken to them except one." And he goes, "We have more than one van." Now, I got no idea what this guy is talking about, so I did what we refer to as a mirror. I just repeat the words, 'cause I'm- my brain is like, "What is this guy talking about?" So, I go, "You have more than one van?" He goes, "No, we only have one van." I go, "You- you- you only have one van?" And he goes, "Yeah. Yeah, and- and you chased my driver away." I go, "We chased your driver away?" He says, "Yeah, when- when you saw the police, he cut and run."Now, this super control freak guy is now blurting stuff out as a result of my mirror, my technique, that he did not mean to say. This ends up convicting his getaway driver who had gotten away, and we didn't even know there was a third guy.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett24:29

       How did that case end?

   20. CVChris Voss24:31

       Everybody came out. That-

   21. SBSteven Bartlett24:32

       Why, why did the bank robber concede in the end? Did he get anything he wanted? Was-

   22. CVChris Voss24:35

       Well, the, uh... No, didn't, you know? He, he, and... And (sighs) you know, how do you negotiate when you're not gonna give them anything? You know, you help them see a different vision of the future-

   23. SBSteven Bartlett24:44

       What was that vision?

   24. CVChris Voss24:44

       ... is what it really boils down to. And you, what you really want them to see is a vision of the future where they live, and then you're hoping the survival instinct kicks in. And th- when the second guy got on the phone with me, his principal concern was getting killed.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett25:00

       Right.

   26. CVChris Voss25:01

       And his secondary concern was, uh, being handled roughly when he came out. Of course, he knew that they had beaten the women on the inside, and that may contribute to his being handled roughly when he came out. But he, number one, didn't want to get killed, and number two, my opening line was, "Look, when you, when you come out, you'll be treated with dignity and respect." And I said that to him enough times that he decided it was gonna be true, and, and, uh, he asked to meet me face-to-face out in front of the bank.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett25:39

       Was he treated with dignity and respect when he came out?

   28. CVChris Voss25:40

       1000%. You got to keep your, you got to keep your promises 'cause... And, you know, this was, this was one of the things when I was teaching negotiation at Harvard. You know, my academic brothers and sisters up there were li- were like, "Would you lie to get the guy out?" And my answer was "No." And they'd say like, "Yeah, but let's say, let's pretend, let's imagine that a terrorist has got a nuclear bomb in Boston, and you know that if you lie to him, he won't set the bomb off. So, how do you answer that one?" And my answer is, "Well, number one, the guy's probably testing me to see if I'll lie, so I gotta watch out that it's not a trap. Number two, if he's not testing me, he's gonna be a better liar than I am, and he's gonna sniff it out." You can't lie to a liar. You just can't. They're too good at it. And then number three, even if I lied to him and get him out, somebody's gonna find out that I lied, and I will always have the reputation of being a liar, and I can't risk my reputation.

6. 26:52 – 35:11

   Hostage negotiation role play

   1. CVChris Voss26:52

   2. SBSteven Bartlett26:52

      So if I'm a, if I'm a... If I've got hostages and I call you and I say, "Listen, I want a car." I think I saw this one on your YouTube channel. "I want a car in 60 seconds outside."

   3. CVChris Voss27:01

      Right.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett27:03

      Um, what do you s- what's the first thing you say to me?

   5. CVChris Voss27:05

      You wanna try?

   6. SBSteven Bartlett27:07

      Yeah, let's do it.

   7. CVChris Voss27:08

      All right.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett27:08

      So, I'm the-

   9. CVChris Voss27:09

      You're the bad guy.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett27:10

       I'm the bad guy, okay.

   11. CVChris Voss27:11

       Yeah.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett27:12

       "Chris, I'm gonna blow this woman's head off if you don't give me a car in the next 60 seconds."

   13. CVChris Voss27:21

       How am I supposed to do that?

   14. SBSteven Bartlett27:23

       Not my problem. You got 55 seconds.

   15. CVChris Voss27:27

       All right, so if I wanted to do it, uh, it's just, it's madness out here. It's chaos. I mean, this is... Ringling Brothers, Barnum & Bailey Circus is organized compared to the nonsense that's going on out there. So, even if I wanted to do it, I can't do it in that timeframe.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett27:47

       I'm sure... You're, you're the FBI, you're the police. You can make anything happen. 50 seconds.

   17. CVChris Voss27:53

       Sounds to me like you're not gonna give me a chance.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett27:56

       I'm giving you a chance right now. 50 seconds, Chris. There's plenty of cars out there. Go get one of the cars and pull it up outside, or I'm gonna blow her head off.

   19. CVChris Voss28:06

       Sounds like you have a reason to live.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett28:11

       I do have a reason to live, but that's none of your business.

   21. CVChris Voss28:15

       No, I'm, um, I'm not trying to find out why. I mean, my first and number one thing is to make sure that you live.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett28:22

       So get me a car, and I will drive off. Honestly, you've got 45 seconds. I don't wanna talk anymore.

   23. CVChris Voss28:29

       If you're not gonna give me a chance, how am I supposed to do it?

   24. SBSteven Bartlett28:31

       I'm giving you a chance. 45 seconds. That's plenty of a chance.

   25. CVChris Voss28:36

       Like, to me, even find... Get all the commanders together and get them to think about this, which they're probably not gonna do anyway. I will go and talk to them, but how am I supposed to find them all, talk to them, get them to think about it in 45 seconds?

   26. SBSteven Bartlett28:59

       Okay, how long do you need?

   27. CVChris Voss29:01

       All right, now, first of all, I want you to understand, I don't think they're gonna do it.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett29:10

       Well, then I'm gonna blow their head off.

   29. CVChris Voss29:12

       That would be your choice. (mimics gunshot)

   30. SBSteven Bartlett29:21

       (laughs)
7. 35:11 – 37:46

   How important is listening?

   1. SBSteven Bartlett35:11

      (paper rustles) How important is it generally in negotiations to listen? 'Cause a lot of people, you know, kind of think they can overpower someone with-

   2. CVChris Voss35:21

      Right.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett35:21

      ... just talking at them.

   4. CVChris Voss35:22

      Right. Yeah, and, and what they're, what they're called is, um, they can't hold a job. (laughs)

   5. SBSteven Bartlett35:31

      (laughs) Yeah, yeah.

   6. CVChris Voss35:32

      You know, you, you, and there are a lot of people that are very visible that are doing that. And in the moment, they might look very good, but what ends up happening is, they're frequently initially extremely successful, and then their success rates drop off a cliff. And then they don't hold a job because they were awesome in their first quarter and had a continuing steady decline in their productivity till it went to zero, and they, they can't be tolerated anymore. But everybody sees a really loud guy or gal getting deals, or, and, and they're the ones who make the most noise about it. So, your original question is how it's important, is listening. There is n- no negotiation methodology that doesn't list listening as an advanced skill. No matter what school of thought somebody's in in negotiation-They all list listening is advanced. Far more difficult than simply keeping quiet. It's critical, and you will actually end up, uh, increasing the velocity of your deal cycles by listening, which a lot of people think it's really counterintuitive. But, you know, I did, I did an interview with Mark Cuban six or seven months ago, and I talked about listening, and he's like, "Yeah, you know, if I take the time to, to really hear somebody out in our first deal and pay attention to what's important with them, then every deal after that will come to me faster, having done it right up front. And it'll increase the velocity of my ability to make deals with them, 'cause they'll trust me. They'll know that I hear them out, they know that I'm looking out for them." And consequently, uh, you know, uh, it doesn't take me a long time to establish trust. When we come back, we come to the table, we get right down to it, and it really incr- increases the velocity of my ability to make deals. And a lot of people can't see that because, "I gotta hear them out. I gotta, you know, blah, blah, blah. I gotta find out what their point of view is." It seems highly efficient, but what it is, is incredibly efficient long term.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett37:44

      Hmm.

8. 37:46 – 41:50

   Different tone of voices for negotiations

   1. SBSteven Bartlett37:46

      And then as that relates to speaking, when you were talking, when you were talking to me then in our little dummy negotiation, um, I noticed the tone of voice you took was very, very calm.

   2. CVChris Voss37:57

      (sighs)

   3. SBSteven Bartlett37:57

      You list in the book three different voices available to negotiators.

   4. CVChris Voss38:03

      Right.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett38:04

      Give me an- a flavor of those three voices that are available to negotiators.

   6. CVChris Voss38:09

      Well, there's, there's, there's three natural types, um, in humans: fight, flight, or make friends. And these are the, uh, our caveman ancestors that lived, either fought the saber-toothed tiger, ran from the saber-toothed tiger, or figured out a way to make friends with it. And the indecisive caveman got eaten by the saber-toothed tiger, doesn't have any descendants. And, uh, we've got substantive reason to believe that that exists globally, regardless of gender, ethnicity, um, religion. Uh, the three types, the globe's split in- pretty evenly into thirds. Got a lot of data on it, backs it up. Our brothers and sisters at Harvard pretty much agree based on their experience. Wharton has pulled a lot of the same data, comes very, very close to the same. And each type has a voice, you know, and the voice of the assertive, natural-born assertive, which I'm actually a natural-born assertive, is more the Donald Trump-style negotiator. You know, attacking, blunt, direct. You know, uh, Iv- Ivanka Trump once described her, her dad, Donald, and said, you know, "He's not blunt. He's just direct." Well, he's just an example, but you know, what I think is direct, you f- feel like you got hit in the face with a brick.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett39:37

      (laughs)

   8. CVChris Voss39:38

      Which is always counterproductive long term. Always, always, always long-term counterproductive. Inhibits your ability to make deals. People get tired of getting hit in the face with a brick. So they, they, it wears them out. Then there's the ani- very analytical type, um, which was, you know, that soothing, calming voice that I was using. Triggers a neuro- neurochemical response in you, it actually calms you down. Neurochemically, it's a involuntary automatic response. Now, you can fight it. You can fight your way back out of it. But you can't stop me from getting the calming neurochemicals started in your head. And, you know, with If, if you're careful not to seem either cold or condescending, that tone of voice is what the great TV interviewers use, the great news anchors, because there's a lot of... There's confidence-

   9. SBSteven Bartlett40:33

      Hmm.

   10. CVChris Voss40:34

       ... and calm simultaneously, and people really like it. And then there's, you know, there's a smiling voice, a friendly voice, and somebody just smiles when they speak. That triggers a different neurochemical reaction. The people that you automatically like right away, as soon as, soon as you lay eyes on them, as soon as they start speaking. You know, and there's an advantage to that. So I was using, in a, in an emotional situation, to... And if you're in a, an emotional negotiation, you know, you wanna go with the, the soothing voice and smile, sprinkle that in. And now you kind of... You get the combination of both of them, and it's, it's collaboration. You're gonna wanna collaborate with me if I use that voice.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett41:18

       I guess it's an attempt and, and s- as you say, to, like, pacify, pacify them. The other thing that I... In chapter three of your book, you talk about, is, uh-

   12. CVChris Voss41:26

       By the way, you got a pretty good voice.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett41:27

       Oh, thank you.

   14. CVChris Voss41:28

       I mean, you, you got, you got a, you got... You, you're basically downward inflecting.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett41:32

       Hmm.

   16. CVChris Voss41:33

       Your voice portrays... First of all, it's very genuine.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett41:38

       Hmm.

   18. CVChris Voss41:39

       But it portrays a guy who's actually really thinking about what he says and he actually listens.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett41:43

       Oh, that's a very kind compliment. Thank you. But she's still gonna die. (laughs)

9. 41:50 – 44:46

   “labelling their pain”

   1. SBSteven Bartlett41:50

   2. CVChris Voss41:50

      (laughs)

   3. SBSteven Bartlett41:50

      Uh, in chapter three, you talk about, um, labeling their pain. I find, found that a really interesting concept.

   4. CVChris Voss41:55

      Right.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett41:55

      Don't feel their pain, label it. I think that's probably a, a mistake I've been making. I actually was thinking about that in the context of, like, my romantic relationships.

   6. CVChris Voss42:02

      Right.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett42:02

      When my girlfriend is talking at me, as a way to kind of create that bridge, how do I create that bridge by acknowledging or labeling her pain? Can you explain to me what you mean by "labeling their pain?"

   8. CVChris Voss42:14

      You know, um, think of wha- whatever the negative emotion that they're feeling is the elephant in the room.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett42:19

      So if I'm, if I'm, you know, I'm holding someone hostage and I'm crying.

   10. CVChris Voss42:24

       Yeah.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett42:25

       Yeah.

   12. CVChris Voss42:25

       I'm gonna say, "Sounds like you feel like you're out of control. Sounds like you, you feel that...... you're gonna have to do something you really don't wanna do.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett42:36

       And what does that do to me when you, when you do that?

   14. CVChris Voss42:38

       All right, so, and this is one of the few in the Black Swan method that's also backed up by neuroscience. Like, we know an-anecdotally that this stuff works, 'cause we're proven it over and over again. We're walking the talk. We make our own deals very effectively, and the people that we coach make their deals and accelerate their deals very effectively. So, you know, so we got no shortage of our own anecdotal information. We don't, really don't need the neuroscience. But there's been several neuroscience experiments. They put people in FMRIs, functional magnetic resonance imaging devices, where they can watch the brain light up, and they induce negative feelings in people and they watch the brain light up, y- typically by showing, uh, them some sort of photograph that causes them to feel a negative emotion, whether it's sadness, anger, whatever it is. And then they simply ask the people to identify or label what they're feeling as a result of the, what they saw, and each and every time the person labeled it, the el- the, uh, electrical activity in that part of the brain diminished. Every time. Not deny, but just called it out, you know. You don't deny the elephant's in the room, you say, "There's an elephant in the room."

   15. SBSteven Bartlett43:59

       And that makes people feel heard, or seen, or felt, or-

   16. CVChris Voss44:02

       All of the, all of the above.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett44:04

       Right.

   18. CVChris Voss44:04

       So, you know, whatever the emotional reaction to that is, people feel seen, f- heard, felt, understood, and it's probably a combination of, you know, the emotional reaction. And the, and the neuroscience reaction is it diminishes the negative emotions every time. Now, the degre- the degree that it diminishes the emotions changes. Like, I, you know, we call that a label, and I might label the negative that I, that I hear, and it might have a minimal impact, a tiny little impact, or it might have a huge impact. But the impact is, the type of impact is the same every single time. The degree of impact changes, but the nature of the impact is always to diminish the negative emotion.

10. 44:46 – 46:53

    The power of “thats right”

    1. CVChris Voss44:46

    2. SBSteven Bartlett44:46

       One of the things that I, I read as well that you're looking for in these negotiations is for them to conf- give you a confirmation. That like, if they say, "That's right."

    3. CVChris Voss44:55

       Yeah.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett44:55

       So you're, you're trying to get me to not blow this lady's head off, and if you can get me to say, "That's right," what is that a signal of?

    5. CVChris Voss45:04

       "That's right" is what people say when they feel understood. You pull a "that's right" out of somebody, you're on your way in a, in a res- in the direction of a great resolution, no matter what the negotiation. Landlord/tenant, employee/employer, you know, business deal. Pulling "that's rights" sends you in a great direction.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett45:25

       So you've labeled something that I'm feeling. You've said, "Steven, it feels like you're about to do something you don't wanna do." And then I go, "That's right."

    7. CVChris Voss45:34

       Right. Now, so, so Tal Raz, great researcher besides great author, he speculates. He says, "You know, I think somebody says, 'That's right,' when they've been experienced an epiphany to some degree." That's what you say when you, when you, what you think, uh, you've heard is completely true. You're not agreeing with a person, you're observing that what they said was true. And when he said, "Epiphany," I'm like, "Ah, this is interesting. Let me look up the neuroscience of epiphanies." And among the neurochemicals that you get a hit of in an epiphany is oxytocin, which is the bonding drug. So you get a hit of oxytocin based on what I've said, and you have an involuntarily feeling of bonding towards me. And then, you know, the, uh, neuroscientist that I think the world of, Andrew Huberman, I heard him talking about o- oxytocin, and he says that oxytocin tends to make people tell the truth. So if you say, "That's right," you're gonna feel bonded to me and you're gonna be more likely to tell me the truth. That ain't a bad position for me to be in in a negotiation.

11. 46:53 – 49:55

    Negotiations in romantic relationships

    1. SBSteven Bartlett46:54

       Negotiations are, you know, all, all over our lives. So I mean, um-

    2. CVChris Voss46:59

       Yeah.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett46:59

       ... when I was reading-

    4. CVChris Voss47:00

       Everywhere.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett47:00

       ... everywhere, right? It's everything. It's teams, it's business, it's podcasting, it's my girlfriend, whatever. When I was th- reading through the, the principles in your book, Never Split the Difference, um, so much of it I could relate to from the context of, like, romantic relationships with my partner.

    6. CVChris Voss47:16

       Yep.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett47:17

       You must find yourself in your own romantic relationships deploying some of these skills. And which ones of them, which one in terms of whether it's just, you know, acknowledging them, making them feel heard, what are the key skills that translate really effectively to romantic relationships?

    8. CVChris Voss47:31

       Well, they all do, because every human being wants to be understood. And in a romantic relationship, they wanna know that you understand. You know, and, and in many cases, ju- like any relationship, they just need, need that in and of itself. Now, the additional demands of a romantic relationship is they're gonna want you to understand and adjust, which in point of fact, what other relationship do they not want that from you as well? Not only show me you understand, but then walk the talk. It's, um, the closer you are to someone, sometimes you just, it's really harder for you to see things from their perspective. Like, you think you didn't do anything wrong and, and, you know, and, and, uh, typically male/female, but not confined to this, you thought you were fine, when in fact what they perceived was that you were clumsy and-... insensitive.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett48:36

       Are you good at r- negotiating in y- a romantic relationship? 'Cause I can a- I'll ask a woman.

    10. CVChris Voss48:41

        (laughs)

    11. SBSteven Bartlett48:42

        (laughs)

    12. CVChris Voss48:43

        Well, the problem with dating a really smart girl is she starts out negotiating you pretty quickly.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett48:50

        (laughs)

    14. CVChris Voss48:50

        But the real i- th- you know, the real issue is, what's your intent behind it? Like, if you're hearing your romantic partner out just to get 'em to shut up, like, the second or third time you pulled that on 'em, they have figured it out. And you're- you're disingenuous. But if you're hearing somebody out 'cause you want things to be better, you really want the relationship to be long-term, and you want it to continue to get better, then they're happy to let you hear 'em out or to be f- l- let you make them feel heard, 'cause you're gonna make the adjustments in your behavior to take that into account. And you're gonna show that you care enough about how they feel, not just w- what happened, but how they feel about what happened, which is a recipe for a great relationship, romantic or not. But a- as, as should be, it's even a higher standard for a romantic relationship, 'cause how can you be involved long-term if you don't care how the other person feels?

12. 49:55 – 56:22

    Was there an instants where it didn’t go right for you?

    1. CVChris Voss49:55

    2. SBSteven Bartlett49:55

       In your negotiat- negotiating days, was there an instance where it really didn't go the way you wanted it to go?

    3. CVChris Voss50:03

       Yeah. And with 93% success rate means 7% of the time, it's gone bad. And that's just, that's just the nature of the game.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett50:10

       Is there one that stands out for you as being...

    5. CVChris Voss50:13

       Well, every one of 'em does. But, eh, then, then the issue is, do you learn? Like, uh, Nassim Nicholas Taleb would call it post-traumatic stress growth. Like, you go through a traumatic event, um, are you traumatized by it, by it, which ... and then damaged and never recover, post-traumatic stress, uh, injury, harm, disorder? Or is there post-traumatic stress growth, where you took that in decided to be better than you ever were before, because you never wanna let that happen again?

    6. SBSteven Bartlett50:50

       When I sa- when I say this, what is the incident that comes to mind?

    7. CVChris Voss50:53

       Well, the first one, uh, that people died in was the second case that I worked in the Philippines, the Burnham/Soberano case. And early on, before we could even get our arms around, uh, like, a situation that was moving really fast and the Philippine military was engaged and chasing the bad guys, and a- a chase had been on for weeks, um, Guillermo Soberano was murdered, uh, by, by the Abu Sayyaf about 21 days into that case. They had already killed a number of Filipinos prior to that. And as they moved across the landscape and the oceanscape and island to island south of Philippines, they would, they would kill hostages and pick up new hostages, 'cause there were people in their way all the time. So, that was an ugly case from the beginning to the end. In the end of it, uh, um, the two of the three remaining hostages were killed in a botched rescue attempt, and they were shot by friendly fire.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett51:56

       Hmm.

    9. CVChris Voss51:56

       Philippine Scout Rangers inadvertently stumbled over the Abu Sayyaf encampment, um, didn't realize it was one that had hostages in it, just opened fire. They recognized it as a terrorist encampment, formed a skirmish line on the trees on the uphill side and just started pouring, um, rifle fire down into the camp. Uh, and so that was, that was the first time that I'd worked anything where people had, had gotten killed.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett52:25

        Does that stay with you?

    11. CVChris Voss52:26

        Yeah, it does. It does. And- and I felt sorry for myself for a long time. And it's not like I'm, um, um, happy about it. But for, uh, I'll never remember the moment that I got the call, 5:30 in the morning, I was in Washington, DC where I lived, and a voice on the other end of the phone said, "I've got bad news. Martin is dead." And it was just a few hours after Martin Burnham had been killed, and Deborah Yap, the Filipino hostage had been killed. Martin's wife, Gracia, um, was wounded and lived. And I re- I'll never forget. That was the worst, that, to- to that point and since, was the worst professional moment, personal moment of my professional career. And I used to say it was the worst moment of my personal career till I was hearing another hostage negotiator talking about a siege he was in when, uh, uh, an infant had- had- had died, had been killed. And he- I remember sitting there watching him talk about it, and he's still very- definitely dealing with the scars and wounds from having been the negotiator on scene. And I remember him saying, like, "You know, I don't know why I keep telling ... you know, giving these presentations. Maybe I just want people to know something bad that happened to me on a winter's day." And I was sitting there thinking, "Bad for you. That wasn't your blood. It wasn't your child." And I thought, "You know, we're taking on too much, 'cause it wasn't a member of our family. It wasn't my brother, wasn't my significant other, wasn't my son that got killed." And that's when I tried to, e- and that's when I realized I had to put that stuff in perspective. It wasn't doing anybody any good for me feeling sorry for myself. I couldn't. And- and what we d- the changes we made as a result of the Burnham/Soberano case saved lives. You know, that was, that was our mandate. All right. So, Martin Burnham is dead. What do we do with that? Do we quit or do we get better? If we get better, somebody else is gonna live. And a whole bunch of people ended up living based on strategy adjustments we made as a result of- of that case.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett54:37

        It seems like a big, a very significant sort of burden to, to carry, right? And it goes back to what I said at the start, you know, it takes a certain type of person to wanna be, wanna play with those stakes.

    13. CVChris Voss54:48

        Yeah-

    14. SBSteven Bartlett54:48

        Um-

    15. CVChris Voss54:49

        ... some-somebody who's naive. (laughs)

    16. SBSteven Bartlett54:50

        Yeah.

    17. CVChris Voss54:51

        You just don't know any better.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett54:52

        Makes us difficult sometimes, just thinking about, you know, the traumatic things we go through. It makes us much difficult, especially in forming relationships. I was, I struggled with that a lot. Struggled in f- f- having a girlfriend, probably because my, my home life was so traumatic that I would always run from commitment. But when you've lived in such d- and you hear the same with, like, soldiers and stuff, you know, when you've lived through such, sort of, traumatic events and high stakes, coming home to, "Hey, babe. You all right?" can be difficult, right?

    19. CVChris Voss55:22

        Yeah. It, yeah, it can be. It can be, it can be difficult. Like, you can, you can have difficulty unwinding.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett55:28

        Hm.

    21. CVChris Voss55:28

        The other person, depending upon how you process information, like, the other person might genuinely doing their best to be there with you to get you to talk about it.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett55:39

        Mm-hmm.

    23. CVChris Voss55:40

        And, you know, if you, if, if that isn't the best way that you process it-

    24. SBSteven Bartlett55:45

        Hm.

    25. CVChris Voss55:46

        And, yeah, one of the very difficult things about me is I don't process stuff by talking about it. I'll talk about it afterwards, you know, but I, I kinda need, I need to unplug. You know, I'll need a good night's sleep.

    26. SBSteven Bartlett56:00

        Hm.

    27. CVChris Voss56:01

        You know, I'll, I'll need, I'll need to let it run through the data banks and kind of bake on its own. I'm probably pretty good the next day.

    28. SBSteven Bartlett56:06

        Which is interesting 'cause in your work, you have no time for that.

    29. CVChris Voss56:09

        (laughs)

    30. SBSteven Bartlett56:10

        (laughs)
13. 56:22 – 58:34

    Mirroring technique

    1. SBSteven Bartlett56:22

       something you talk about as well in the book which I find really interesting 'cause, again, something with my girlfriend I, I started to explore, which was, you know, when she says something to me or when she does something, I, to make her, again, feel heard I guess, I just kind of repeat it back to her.

    2. CVChris Voss56:35

       Right.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett56:35

       Without also trying to... Is it also a body language thing or is it just... How, how does mirroring, mirroring work?

    4. CVChris Voss56:40

       Well, a hostage negotiator's mirror or the black swan's mirror, you know, the way that we teach in business now, is just all verbal.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett56:48

       Verbal, okay.

    6. CVChris Voss56:48

       You know, if, if, if you start lining up physically, uh, which is what the body language mirroring thing is-

    7. SBSteven Bartlett56:56

       Mm-hmm.

    8. CVChris Voss56:57

       Like, if you, if you, if that happens naturally, then so be it. Enough people try to do it as a manipulative tool that we're really leery of even coaching people on that at all. Like, if we're talking and suddenly we both find ourse- and I'm actually listening and you're listening and we both find ourselves leaning the same direction, that's cool 'cause we're dialed in.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett57:17

       Hm.

    10. CVChris Voss57:18

        But the body language thing is, is a tool of manipulation so many times with people that are just trying to exploit you. That aspect of it, we stay away from. Now, the hostage negotiator mirror, the black swan mirror, repeating just the last one to three words of what somebody said or them taking surgically, picking a gist, one to three words here and there, it's ridiculously effective.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett57:40

        Ridiculously effective.

    12. CVChris Voss57:41

        Yeah.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett57:41

        I did that.

    14. CVChris Voss57:42

        You did. Very nice.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett57:43

        (laughs)

    16. CVChris Voss57:44

        It's re- and, and the thing that I find fascinating about it, too, is, like, if we find somebody that's really into mirroring, they'll typically be somebody whose IQ and EQ both are real high. And there are a lot of people whose IQ is real high, you know, their book smarts are good, but their people smarts aren't good.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett58:07

        Hm.

    18. CVChris Voss58:08

        And they tend to love mirroring because it's the least amount of effort with the maximum amount of response. And they wanna guide a negotiation in a very gentle but purposeful way, while the o- and the other side doesn't feel guided. They feel like they're expanding. And it's been real consistent.

14. 58:34 – 59:03

    Black-swan group

    1. CVChris Voss58:34

    2. SBSteven Bartlett58:34

       When you think about your, your next phase and your next, your, your projects that you're working on now and what you're trying to do, you've got your, the Black Swan Group.

    3. CVChris Voss58:40

       Right.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett58:41

       I saw that online. Um, the objective of that is to, to coach people into negotiation skills and stuff like that?

    5. CVChris Voss58:47

       Yeah, worldwide, globally. Yeah.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett58:49

       And, and what does that look like? Is it a course that people can buy? Is it a, a, a webinar? What is it?

    7. CVChris Voss58:54

       Yeah, it's all of it. The website is BlackSwanLTD.com.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett58:57

       Mm-hmm.

    9. CVChris Voss58:58

       I mean, if you're just starting out, we got free stuff. Like, how do, how do you start to get

15. 59:03 – 1:02:47

    The last guests question

    1. CVChris Voss59:03

       better now if you're further on down the line? We coach people through all kinds of deals on a regular basis, and it's a really big part of what the company does. We coach a lot of people through negotiations.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett59:19

       And you've got your book as well, which we've talked about a bit, which is Never Split the Difference, which has sold more than two million copies worldwide-

    3. CVChris Voss59:27

       Yeah. Yeah.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett59:27

       ... which is just staggering. Crazy, crazy numbers. We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the previous guest leaves a question for the next guest.

    5. CVChris Voss59:35

       Oh.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett59:36

       And I get to, I only get to see it when I open the book. Okay.

    7. CVChris Voss59:40

       Oh.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett59:40

       They've got good handwriting, so this is useful. Okay. Is there someone in your life that really needs your help but you are still unsure on how to help them?

    9. CVChris Voss1:00:02

       Uh, there, there's a, there, there's someone in, in, in my immediate family that, um, I can, uh, I continue to buy the wrong gifts for. And, uh, we've got actually a conversation scheduled for me to at least say, "All right, I realize I'm getting it wrong. Help me get it right."

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:31

        I think we can all relate to that in some respects. Well, I can, anyway. Thank you, Chris. Thank you for your time. Thank you for writing such a great book o- on a topic that is relevant to more than just FBI negotiations, as you know. It's relevant to my relationship with my partner, to my business, to everything in between. It's reli- relevant to all the interactions I have with all humans, and that's clearly...... uh, a testament to, uh, uh, why it sold more than, it's almost 2.5 million copies or something crazy like that.

    11. CVChris Voss1:00:59

        Yeah.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:59

        Ben, I know that, I know the stats around books. I know that more th- (smacks lips) I think my publisher told me that most books don't sell a thousand copies. So, like, 90 plus percent of books don't sell a thousand copies. To, so to sell 2.5 million copies worldwide is staggering. But it speaks to your experience, and, and the way you articulated it in the book. It's been an honor to speak to you.

    13. CVChris Voss1:01:19

        Thank you, yeah.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:19

        Thanks for your wisdom. And, um, I'm gonna keep brushing up my negotiation skills.

    15. CVChris Voss1:01:23

        Pleasure's been mine. Thanks for having me on.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:25

        Thanks, Chris. (instrumental music plays) I had a few words to say about one of my sponsors on this podcast. As we all know, energy independence and living a little greener has never been more important for a better future. It's a, it's a journey I've been on over the last couple of years that I've shared with you sporadically, ever since I sold my Range Rover Sport and bought an electric bicycle. And there's a lot of people out there that listen to this podcast that are looking to make that sustainable switch in the things that run their daily life, whether it's their home, their car, their vehicles, whatever it might be. So, when a good friend of mine at a company called MyEnergy called Jordan told me she was interested in sponsoring this podcast, I jumped at the opportunity. So for those of you that don't know, MyEnergy are a UK renewable energy brand whose mission is to increase the usage of green energy, helping people like you and I to save time and money when it comes to making sustainable switches in our lives. So if this resonates with you, and you're the type of person that's been looking or thinking about going on your own sustainability journey, I highly recommend checking them out at myenergy.com.

Episode duration: 1:02:48