The Diary of a CEOFive Guys CEO: How we built a burger empire WITHOUT ANY Marketing: John Eckbert | E168
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,063 words- 0:00 – 1:26
Intro
- JEJohn Eckbert
You know, when Barack Obama left the White House to go pick up Five Guys- We're gonna go get some burgers. 41. ... that's what makes Five Guys a treat and special. Jon Egbert- The CEO of Five Guys Europe. Five Guys has a global cult following.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Five Guys burgers and fries, it was banging.
- JEJohn Eckbert
Covent Garden was the very first Five Guys outside of the US. We knew that we weren't gonna be advertising. We're entirely reliant on someone tasting a great burger and fry and then telling their neighbors or their friends. It has to be, "Whew, that's fucking fantastic."
- SBSteven Bartlett
That Covent Garden location sold more than any in the world.
- JEJohn Eckbert
It did, yeah, by far. I'm responsible for 225 restaurants now.
- SBSteven Bartlett
H- how do you stop getting a little bit sloppy and complacent?
- JEJohn Eckbert
We've actually gotten better. The key to that is... (music)
- SBSteven Bartlett
As the CEO of a business that's gone through such chaos, when was your hardest time?
- JEJohn Eckbert
So I had, uh, two young children. The fact is that there were m- moments when they woke up and needed both their parents and, and I wasn't there. Um... You'll hurt the people you care about in ways that you don't intend, in ways that you don't understand.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.
- 1:26 – 8:20
What shaped your business mentality?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Jon, I've, I've read quite extensively through your story and, um, I guess my first question is, when you th- when you think back to your pre-twenties, right, what is the, what are the most important things from that era of your life that shaped your perspective and approach to the world and to business today?
- JEJohn Eckbert
Wow. Well, first, I grew up in a very counter-cultural, isolationist family. Um, so we didn't, we didn't watch TV. We didn't celebrate birthdays or holidays. And, um, I kinda got up at 5:00 AM to practice violin for an hour, um, before school, um, and had music lessons after school every day. Um, and, um, so it was very, um, different. Um, and I think I always... I think I grew up feeling different, with this kind of longing to have a sense of belonging. Um, and that was always something that I was looking for in my professional life, I think, um, as well. I would've been a fourth-generation doctor if I had gone into medicine. Um, and my father told me that the profession was changing and it wasn't so much about patients and, um, and doctors and kind of the relationship that can develop in terms of health and bringing your, you know, your health to your doctor and getting advice, and it was changing in America dramatically. And so he, he said, you know, "Don't, uh, don't do medi- you know, I'm not encouraging you to do medicine." So I knew I had to kind of find a different, um, role in life. And I, I read, um, Ayn Rand in high school, um, and not suggesting that, uh, that, uh, she's gotten everything right. But one, one interesting thing that she did propose was that there's, there could be something noble in business. Be- you know, being a successful entrepreneur could be a noble thing. And I- my... So the, the kind of orientation from my family was make sure that you do something important or, or, um, in your life. And that meant, you know, taking care of other people or doing something that was, um, had some greater purpose to it than kind of just making money. Um, but that seed of a thought that being in business could actually be a noble profession and you actually could do something important to make people's lives better, um, and take care of people in a different way in business was kind of, I think, an important penny to drop for me, um, when I was, when I was 18. Um, but yeah, it was a, it was a, it was a definitely a different upbringing than, than most, and that, that sense of belonging was something I've been searching for my whole life.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Do you think you've been searching for that sense of belonging more so than the average person?
- JEJohn Eckbert
Um, I think so. You know, I, I th- I think if you have something in abundance, you take it for granted maybe.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Right.
- JEJohn Eckbert
Um, and it was something that I definitely didn't have and, and that I, um... And I, and I ve- I very much felt, um, you know, an outsider looking in. Um, and I've, I've, I saw this, you know, other, other people had community, other kids had community and, and f- and kind of broad-based friendships and, and a sense of really kind of relaxed belonging. And I kind of always had this kind of anxious drive that, you know, looking for that. Um, and, you know, and I think business was, um, you know, certainly lived that out in the business world, um, as well.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You, you had a, um, quite a journey through banking and being a, being what we'd call, like, a, a regional councilor and all these things, and eventually, you, you came back to the UK, kind of where I wanted to, to start this, this story off. Um, in 2010, I believe-
- JEJohn Eckbert
That's right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... um, your good friend Sir Charles Dunstan who was the founder of Carphone Warehouse-
- JEJohn Eckbert
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... um, and you went into business originally, and then you went, went on in search of, um, a new business to, to sort of partner with him on.
- JEJohn Eckbert
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And that's kind of where the Five Guys stories begins.
- JEJohn Eckbert
Yes, well, I, I, I had been a student here a long time ago and lived in a, uh, tiny basement, one-room flat, much smaller than this studio is. Um, and, uh, Charles lived upstairs with his, his sister and girlfriend, and they invited me up for drinks one day, um, and they pretty much adopted me, um, for my year abroad. Um, and we went to their parents' home in Cambridge and to Norfolk for a, for a holiday, and, um, they... So they really made England feel like-... a home. Uh, and I always, was always my ambition to return with a non-student's budget, uh-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JEJohn Eckbert
... to, to England. Um, and so the chance came in 2010, um, and moved back here. And, uh, Charles had just spun TalkTalk out from Carphone Warehouse. Um, and so I guess you can't be CEO of two publicly traded businesses, so he became chairman of both and CEO of neither and began thinking a bit more as an investor. And we got to talking and thinking, what's the next big business, that opportunity that we, we could leverage his experience and reputation in retail. Um, but we wanted something that Amazon wasn't so much a threat to, um, as electronics. Um, online felt like a real threat, um, to that industry segment. And we thought, food and beverage has got to be a segment that's a bit more protected from the online world. Um, you shou- you kinda have to show... This is before delivery kind of blew up. You kinda have to show up and, and, and eat your food where it's prepared more. Um, so we thought that that would protect, uh, you from the online competitive world. And but we didn't know anything about food and beverage. Neither of us did. Um, and so we went looking for a great concept that wasn't in the UK that we thought could bring that expertise. We could bring the, um, kind of operational UK property knowledge and hiring practices and, um, market knowledge, and partner with someone who would bring that food and beverage experience into the, into the proposition. And we talked to so many US concepts that weren't here. Um, and eventually kind of collided with the Morrell family. There actually are five brothers, um, and their mom and dad, so there are seven in the family. Um, but five brothers who are the five guys who founded the business. And they were looking to go global af- having pretty much allocated the US amongst their franchisees.
- 8:20 – 20:14
Five Guy’s journey
- JEJohn Eckbert
- SBSteven Bartlett
How many, so how many other concepts did, do you think you looked at? And was there any near misses? Was there any that you thought, "Do you know what? Maybe..." Any other concepts that you nearly committed your, your life to?
- JEJohn Eckbert
Yeah, so, um, we talked with a lot of different concepts. And, um, still in contact with a lot of those, uh, those concepts. Um, and some of them have been really helpful in terms of, um, building the Five Guys business here. So, you know, if you can use insight from another concept that, uh, maybe isn't a competitor or isn't here, um, that can be really helpful. And some of those still may, may come to play. Um...
- SBSteven Bartlett
Then why, why Five Guys?
- JEJohn Eckbert
Well, I think it starts with the product. Um, you know, it's, it's such a simple, fantastic product. You know, it's just burgers. You know, the, the menu is, like, shockingly stark. I mean, it is burgers and fries and that's it. Um, and, but it, you know, when you, when you take a bite of a Five Guys burger, when you sh- when you, when you have fries that are cooked exactly right, it is, it's magical. I mean, it's... And it's fant- I mean, it's a world-beating product. And that was, that was, I think... You know, there's so many concepts have, had gone, like, broad. You know, like, um, you know, there's so many concepts in America where, like, you can get everything and the, and the menu's like a Bible. And, you know, you kind of flip through the sections. You're like, "How can they possibly be prepari- uh, preparing all this stuff at the top of the game?" And, um, and Five Guys was going, you know, completely against that, which was, you know, everybody told the Morrell family, "You know, y- you have to have a salad if you're gonna, you know, be successful. You have to have, you know, c- chicken. You know, you can't just have a burger on your menu." And they were like, "When we add other stuff to our menu, it just, like, uh, blows our mind. And we don't, we, we lose focus on making a great burger." And so I think part of their genius has been focus. You know, "We're gonna do just one thing and do it really well." Um, I mean, that, that was the thesis for the founding of the business was, if you were gonna have your mom over and, and make, make burgers, you know, what would you do? You would buy the highest quality ingredients you possibly can. You'd make everything fresh. Um, that, that was... I think the Morrells were so far ahead of their time when they founded the business in 1986, um, because there's literally not a freezer in the Five Guys equipment infrastructure. Everything is obsessively fresh. And right before the, we, we, we signed the joint venture to bring them here, there was a study done that said the number one criteria that anyone across the UK looked for in determining where you were gonna eat was h- was the freshness of the food. And whether it was white tablecloth or at a fast food place, it didn't matter. That was the most important criteria. And that was like, the Morrell's thesis that, you know, noth- everything had to be freshly prepared that day or it went. Um...
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's interesting 'cause conceivably, i- it seems to me like they were very much at the right place at the right time. There was this macro change in public perception and awareness around food and what's going into food, organic and v- all these kinds of, these conversations around food started to emerge, which seems to have hurt a lot of big brands, um, in a very, uh, fatal way, whether it's in the sugar-based fizzy drink industry or whether it's in the fast food industry.
- JEJohn Eckbert
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, it's conceivable that the world could have gone another way. Maybe we could have doubled down on liking f- even faster food that was-
- JEJohn Eckbert
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
... has more crap in it, right?
- JEJohn Eckbert
Yes. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, so I just, I just wonder how important you think timing was in, in their thesis catching public, that sort of public wave coming into shore?
- JEJohn Eckbert
No, I think that's, I think that's very, I think you're v- very right about that. You know, the, the, our fries have three ingredients in it, potatoes, the peanut oil we cook it in, and a dash of salt.Some of our competitors, you know, have like 16, 19 ingredients in their fries. And you're like, "Wh, what do you, what else could there be in, in fries?" You know, so from our perspective, our, you know, our, our fries start as potatoes in the beginning of the day. They're hand washed, hand cut, um, and then twice cooked to a very specific standard. Um, and, you know, just keeping it s-, again, just keeping it simple. Um, and I think, I think it's very much, um, I think they, th- they positioned themselves in front of a tidal wave without, without knowing it. Um-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JEJohn Eckbert
And that, that trend of freshness, um, I think was a huge, um, a huge win for the family. I think the other thing that they did, which was very m- early on trend, even early from when we found it here in the UK, was customization, um, and having something exactly the way that you want it. Um, we have 15 free toppings, which means that you can have every burger 250,000 ways just by the combinations of those f- those toppings. Um, and everything is made by hand just for you. We don't cook anything until Steven walks in and says, you know, "This is the burger that I want." Um, now the challenging thing is, is that as soon as you've placed your order, there's 249,999 wrong ways to make your burger. Um, so the customer ser- one of the, one aspect of customer service is getting that right-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JEJohn Eckbert
... the first time. Um, but customization was new, I think. I mean, in America, you know, it goes back to Harry Met Sally and the way she ordered her salad in the, you know, in the restaurant. Um, you know, it was, um, you know, a, an example of how Americans want things just the way they want them. Um, but I think that's been a newer thing to Europe. You know, they, like, the chef should know, you know, "Chef, tell me how I should order this."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JEJohn Eckbert
Um, and saying, "No, no, no. It should be exactly the way you want it." Um, and I think that trend is the, certainly the millennials are very much onto that. You know, "I want it exactly the way that I want it." And Five Guys is really ready for that. The whole machine is like, um, uh, uh, I liken it to putting a, uh, a Ferrari engine on top of an ox cart and then racing it around a track.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JEJohn Eckbert
So we're very old school, very analog in our produc- in our production. It's very manual. Um, everything's handmade. Um, and yet we can do, you know, a 4,000-pound hour, um, out of, uh, you know, of Oxford Circus making, you know, burgers and fries. Um, you'll see kind of 25, 30 people running around madly behind, uh, an open kitchen, uh, making your food. I think that was the other secret because Five Guys doesn't advertise. So there literally is no way for us to tell a, someone who doesn't know Five Guys what we're about or, you know, what makes us different or special. Um, we're entirely reliant on someone walking into the restaurant, seeing how the food is prepared, tasting a great burger and fry, and then telling their, their neighbors or their friends, you know, "Hey, look. You've gotta, you've gotta try this." Um, so having an open kitchen where you can see that freshness and the customization I think has been part of the, um, success of the business.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's almost like there's a set of really strong values underpinning the business and the, the business has been reverse engineered. Maybe not even reverse engineered because when it's the case of a founding family still running it-
- JEJohn Eckbert
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... I'm sure it all comes sort of intuitively to them. But and in, so in hindsight, we look at it and go, "That's a point of genius. That's a point of genius." But it's all comes from these underlying values. One of those is about the freshness of the ingredients and it all being very real so, of course, the kitchen would be open, right, because you've got nothing to hide.
- JEJohn Eckbert
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But in hindsight, you go, "Well, you know, that's, that's genius." Well, no, uh, uh, it's, it would be strange to, to hide away the kitchen in such a context but-
- JEJohn Eckbert
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... um, that, that particular point about the kitchen being open at Five Guys is very different from all the other fast food restaurants that came before Five Guys that dominated the High Street-
- JEJohn Eckbert
Mm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... where you'd order the burger and then something would go on in the back.
- 20:14 – 29:52
Building a successful business without marketing
- JEJohn Eckbert
worked.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You know, you have this, you have this rule where you don't do advertising.
- JEJohn Eckbert
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Has there ever been a time where you thought, "Fuck, I just wanna, just wanna little Facebook ad"?
- JEJohn Eckbert
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
You know, the pandemic comes around, things start changing in the world. You think, "Fuck, I just wanna..." You know, y- I know you joined some of the delivery, um, services, which was a, which was a big, big decision for the UK-
- JEJohn Eckbert
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... um, 'cause the US hadn't done that previously.
- JEJohn Eckbert
That's right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But in those moments, do you not think, "Fuck, I just wanna run a little..."?
- JEJohn Eckbert
(laughs) It's real tempting, isn't it?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah (laughs) .
- JEJohn Eckbert
You know, it be, you know, when you think about the dashboard that most food and beverage executives have, you know, you have an advertising dial that you can crank. You know, you can choose the quality of your messaging and the budget that you put in it and the way that you spend it. And all those dials are gone and off the, off the table. So, you know, it, it does focus you on the things that you can do, which is making great burgers and fries, hiring people who, who are passionate about it. Um, you know, kind of back to the whole people thing, um, the, the people who are in the store make such a difference. Um, you know, food fundamentally is about passion. We all have, you know, y- y- y- you're, you know, you remember the great food experiences that you've had, and you talk about them, and it becomes part of your, you know, if you're on holiday, having great food is part of that experience. And, um, having a passion about food is so important. And, and, and having, you know, I, I'm responsible for 225 restaurants now. Um, and 8600 people a day get up and put on a red shirt and go into work in a Five Guys. And whether those people who are actually shaking fries and grilling burgers care about the product that they're making, the food that they're, that they're cooking, that's all the difference, because all we have is the customer eating a great product. It can't be good, right? If a customer takes a bite of a burger and goes, "Ah, that's really good," th- that doesn't move the dial. Nothing happens. It has to be, "That's fucking fantastic." You know, "I'm gonna go tell somebody who else." And sh- who, who do I know who likes good food? I'm gonna tell them about a burger or a fry, you know, the fries at Five Guys. It has to be that level good. And you only get that level good with people who pour their passion and their care into the food that they're preparing, and having that many people care about a, about burgers and fries is the, you know, I think the, what makes us successful.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You know that, that sort of psychological device that's making people want to tell their friends, do you spend much time thinking about exactly why that is? Like, what is the, why would I care? If I've had a great burger, why would I care psychologically to tell my best mate about that burger? What is it doing for me?
- JEJohn Eckbert
That's next-level thinking, Stephen. Um... (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay. (laughs)
- JEJohn Eckbert
And, and, and actually is, is the, uh, uh, one thing we have been able to do is to, uh, encourage the Morrells to widen their thinking a bit, um, and delivery was a great example of that, where, um, w- they opened up a store near the Pentagon, and a general called up Jerry and said, "I'd like 1000 burgers at, you know, noon." And, uh, you know, Jerry bought a big sign and, and hung it up, "No delivery," and put it on the side of the building. Um, and, you know, the thesis was right, which is that our burgers and fries taste best right off the grill, you know, it's the best food experience you can get. Um, but we convinced him that actually it wasn't just your cheap local, um, you know, guy who was delivering food. It was actually really high-quality food, and more and more people were actually looking for really good food delivered.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Did he ch- come and try it here?
- JEJohn Eckbert
Yeah, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
From delivery?
- JEJohn Eckbert
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Uh-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Before it went to delivery?
- JEJohn Eckbert
Before it went to America, for sure.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay.
- JEJohn Eckbert
Um, but we convinced him that all of the better restaurant concepts were, were actually heading towards delivery.And so, gosh, five, six years ago now, we, we started. We launched delivery in the, in the UK and it, and it really worked. Um, it kinda became about 20% of our sales. And they saw that, of course, it's not as good as right off the grill, but it actually is a good product and people like it, and it, and it can work. And, and if you work with your delivery, and you have a commitment from your delivery partner to take care of the food as it's transported to, to the customer, it can really work. Um, and we did a lot of stuff like, you know, telling people that, you know, p- t- turn your oven on 200, pop the fries in for fi- you know, just a couple minutes. It'll really, you know, liven them up before you eat them. Um, so they saw that it worked here, and they coo- they picked it up, and of course, during the pandemic, it was our lifeblood. Um, you know, it would have been a very different journey, um, if, uh, there hadn't been delivery, um, in the system. But we've been able to convince the Morrells that some of those things that were, were rules of the brand before, um, can actually be good for the brand an- and can work, and delivery was a good example of that.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I guess that's important because the world is changing. So like stubborn values are really good to some extent, but in a changing world, um, it's almost a bit like the Bible. You have to be able to look at the thing again and go, "Huh."
- JEJohn Eckbert
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) "Maybe..." You know? So...
- JEJohn Eckbert
I- indeed, indeed. And, and, and actually in the Morrells' defense, you know, they've, they've become successful. Who they are is saying no to change, you know? Ev- when everybody told them they should do a chicken sandwich, everybody told them they should do a salad, they were like, "No, no, no, it's too complicated." We take our eye off the ball and the kind of core of what we do. Um, and helping them to dis- to discern that delivery actually is okay. You can be the best burger d- being delivered, um-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Because it doesn't compromise on their, on their values, those core values of serving food that your mother would love, basically.
- 29:52 – 33:06
How to stop employees becoming compliant
- SBSteven Bartlett
against that? You know, you've got 250... 225 locations, you said, in Europe that you're managing.
- JEJohn Eckbert
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, how do you stop the 226th location, you know, getting a little bit sloppy and complacent and then serving bad burgers?
- JEJohn Eckbert
Yeah. Gosh, even that... You know, the, the... That was my primary concern when I... You know, I was...... Charles and I structured the joint venture together. We, you know, we hired the first employees, you know, a- and opened the first restaurant and, you know, it had such amazing momentum. You know, it was just kind of this explosion of Five Guys and it was, you know, really f- you know, fun to be a part of it. And my, th- y- the kinda thing that keeps you up is, "Okay, we're gonna grow this business, you know, as fast as we can, uh, 'cause we h- we know we have something." Um, how are we gonna keep the intensity and the energy and the, and the passion that we see in the store in Covent Garden? How do we make sure that every one of these (laughs) restaurants has that kinda intensity?
- SBSteven Bartlett
And that was the far... The, the most... That Covent Garden location sold more than any in the world-
- JEJohn Eckbert
It did.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... when it, when it launched.
- JEJohn Eckbert
It did. Yeah, by far.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Wow.
- JEJohn Eckbert
I mean, it w- it, we, we underwrote it for, like, a five-and-a-half-year payback. It paid back in two years. I mean, it was f- just a, a phenomenal, uh, success. Um, but yeah. I mean, the thing that kept me up a- up at night was, you know, how can we make sure that, you know, we opened up in Milton Keynes, we opened up in, um, you know, um, the s- the smallest... You know, w- we're, we're, we're gonna open up a store in Saint Andrews. You know, how do we make sure that, that those stores have people who are absolutely passionate about burgers and fries and taking care of hungry customers? Um, and that, I will say, has been one of the biggest surprises of my, uh, tenure as, in, in this business is that it's, we've actually gotten better. Um, and the key to that is hiring am- you know, very talented professionals and trusting them. Um, and, you know, um, m- my personal style is a very hands-off style of management. I mean, if, if, if you expect me to micromanage you, I've, we've, we've gotten off on... You know, it's the wrong place, it's the wrong fit. Um, you know, we hire professionals who are really good at what they do and let them do their job. Um, and finding those people who are absolutely operators. Uh, I, I, I'd say the other bit is that we are very operations-led. Um, I was a banker before, before this. Um, but I'm fully qualified in a Five Guys kitchen. Um, so I can do every task that you see in, um, you know, making a bur- making burgers and fries. I'm, I'm certified to do that. And people who are much better (laughs) at it than I am-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JEJohn Eckbert
... could do it much faster than I can. Um, but if you have any credibility in the business, you have to be operationally capable. Um, and hiring operationally capable people who are really good at identifying and qualifying those people who can run a store and bring that passion into a store, that's been the s- the, the, the secret of the, of the s- the, the growth of the business. Um, because having that kind of commitment from the person who's showing up and running a shift, that's what, that's what makes this restaurant successful.
- 33:06 – 39:27
Installing company values
- SBSteven Bartlett
Th- g- going back to that point about values, I, I, I would imagine that... You know, from speaking to actually sports teams and speaking to the players in those successful sports teams, whether it's the Manchester United players that, that were under Sir Alex Ferguson for 20-odd years and they, they, they said something to me which was really interesting and I never forgot. Rio Ferdinand said to me, he said, "How many times do you think Sir Alex Ferguson came into the training ground changing room?" I said, "I don't know. I, you tell me." He goes, "Twice in 26 years." And I go, "Why?" And he goes, "Well, the culture was in there, so he didn't need to come in."
- JEJohn Eckbert
Mm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And it spoke... And then he told me about h- when he moved to another football club and in that same training ground changing room, they're all bickering and talking about how much they're being paid and, like, slagging things off.
- JEJohn Eckbert
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Whereas Sir Alex Ferguson never needed to walk into that room because the culture was already in there.
- JEJohn Eckbert
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And it made me think about how, you know, to keep the specialness of what made you successful at one location when you have 225, those values and that culture must be so strong. So if I'm a f- if I'm starting at Five Guys in a management position today, what are you saying to me to turn me into a Five Guys disciple?
- JEJohn Eckbert
Well, I mean, I guess the... W- we do actually have values that we identify with inside the business. And hiring right is essential. I mean, there's so many talented food and beverage professionals who are really good at their job but who are a terrible fit for us. Um, and so being able to find those human beings who work in a Five Guys... So a general manager works in the restaurant with customers, with crew, making burgers and fries, taking, resolving problems and issues. There's not a laptop job in a, in a, in a Five Guys. Um, so someone who's looking for kind of, you know, a kind of ice skate above things and, you know, not really getting your hands dirty, that's not the right fit for us. So, I guess the first thing we did was, you know, when we opened up nobody knew who Five Guys were, so we had to beg people to work for us. Um, and of course that, that's always a, a, a mistake. Um, you h- we hired a lot of the wrong people and you have a lot of churn early on trying to find what that right fit is. Um, and so I remember it was a really important decision we made where we're f- essentially gonna invert the equation and we said, "You know, Five Guys is a really hard job and it's, and it's probably not for you." And then kind of be quiet and look for the, look for the, the, the woman or the guy who kinda raised their hand and said, "That kinda sounds good to me." Um, and so having the kind of negative sell on working at Five Guys I think was a really important distinction that we made. But once you get into Five Guys, we have five values that, that we build our business on. Um, and that's integrity. Um, you know, y- you can't... Once you lose your integrity, everything else is easy. Um, so having, um, integrity in how you lead. Um, being competitive, um, and, you know, wanting to win and going after, um, the business. Being enthusiastic, having passion and positivity and looking for the solution. Um, family-oriented, taking care of people. Having a sense about, um, the human beings who are on your crew and the hungry people who are coming into your store and treating them like family. Then getting it done. Um, not over-complicating it. Our business is of... You know, our menu's simple, our business is simple but, but it's really hard. Um, but making sure that you have a very much results-oriented, um-... focus as a manager. And we actually train and teach those values. And when you look at the pandemic and how Five Guys comparatively surfed through the pandemic, it was because we taught those values and we all absorbed those values into how we thought. And then when, you know, you had to be agile and, and nimble and flexible, you knew what, what the, what the objective of the business was and, eh, all the managers just beautifully adjusted their business to reflect the opportunities that they could take.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How, um, how do you go about instilling those values in team members, um, beyond, beyond the day when they're hired? Is there, is there certain things you're doing every quarter? Is it daily emails? Like, what is, what are the, the touch points where you're using them as an opportunity to say, "This is who we are, by the way"?
- JEJohn Eckbert
Yeah, well, th- uh, I think the first thing, um, was a, a s- uh, a card from a deck that you, that you played was we, we launched an app, um, right, like, within, um, a week of the pandemic following. We had been planning to have an em- uh, uh, an employee-oriented app. Um, but we launched the app, um, right when the pandemic struck. We were like, "We have to be able to communicate," because we were... none of us knew what was happening and being able to be in direct touch with every human being in the business was such a, um, a great tool. Um, and we immediately had, like, massive down... I mean, it w- it was, it was universally kind of accepted as a way to communicate with inside the company, um, and it allowed... So I, I was recording something pretty much every day to say, you know, "Here's what's going on. Here's what the rules are. Here's why it's gonna be safe to come to work. Here's how we're gonna protect you and your family and the crew and, and the customers in this environment." Um, and being able to have that direct line of communication to the whole company was really powerful, kind of cut through a lot of the, the fear and, um, and uncertainty about it, one. Um, two is that we, uh, we've now... we're now investing massively in learning and development. Um, we... 75% of our managers are promoted internally. Um, so these are people who have joined as... We have people who have joined as crew and gone on to be district managers, area managers now. So that kind of career opportunity, um, is fantastic. So if you're ambitious, if you're... have, you know, career goals, come to Five Guys because we're growing and we're... we need your talent to, to grow the business. So being able to... first of all, we know that that care- internal development is kind of the best path to, um, to, to growing inside of Five Guys and having new leaders for all the, the restaurants that we're opening. We've got to invest in the young people who are joining Five Guys, um, and teaching them not just burgers and fries, but how to manage, h- what, how to manage people. Um, you know, there's so many different kinds of people that it takes to make a restaurant work. How you communicate with one crew member may be very different from how you communicate and motivate with another one, and giving our managers tools for how to connect with all different kinds of people, um, who work for them is, you know, an important investment that we make.
- 39:27 – 46:42
Hiring the best people
- JEJohn Eckbert
- SBSteven Bartlett
Before the pandemic happened, um, I, I think I said a lot on this... in this podcast and just generally that my single biggest learning, being a young entrepreneur starting in business and then making all the mistakes and then getting a little bit more mature, was the importance of talent. And I always say that by definition of, of the word company, the definition of the word company means group of people.
- JEJohn Eckbert
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Took me too long to figure that out because when I started, I was 20 years old. I... you know, you just hire your mate here. About 18 years old, I started my first companies, hired, you know, my, my friend here. I met someone at a rap event. I was like, "You can be my marketing director." Went into Prada, met another guy. I was like, "You can be the head of our accounts." It was just that kind of whoever was willing, right?
- JEJohn Eckbert
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Great people. Exactly probably who I needed at that phase. But for the next phase, you need to... um, I learned that you need a different caliber of person. And really, I should have been a bit more ambitious from the jump, if I'm being completely honest.
- JEJohn Eckbert
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, and so now I reflect on it and think, "Damn, in fact, every company is just a recruitment business-"
- JEJohn Eckbert
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
"... at its core."
- JEJohn Eckbert
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Like, if I had hired Steve Jobs, I would have-
- JEJohn Eckbert
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and bound them with the right culture and values-
- JEJohn Eckbert
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... I would have had an Apple, right?
- JEJohn Eckbert
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I would have made an Apple.
- JEJohn Eckbert
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How important do you think it is, um, to hire the best people and how, how do you go about that? What is the, the strategy?
- JEJohn Eckbert
Yeah, well, first of all, I think we had the benefit of seeing the success of Five Guys in the US. So Charles and I had a conviction that even before we opened the first store, of course, we were nervous when we opened it, but that we, we thought we had a tiger by the tail because we thought the product was fantastic. Um, so we were able to assemble people who were proven to be really good at what they did from the outset and kind of like across the board in the senior management team. So Julie Spier, who's my head of operations, unbelievable. We w- we wouldn't be where we are without her. Richard Collier, who's head of property. I mean, he opened up 2,400 stores for Carphone Warehouse all across Europe, really ex- est- established professional. Those two are... were essential. We would never be where we are without those two individuals. But then kind of driving that all the way down to the, you know, the, the, the first crew person who you hire in a, in a new... in a... for a new store, hugely important because they're actually going to be making the burger and fry for, for the customer who walks in there. And, you know, I think that, you know, it's probably an urban myth, but the Shackleton story about, you know, putting an ad in the paper for his, you know, south, uh, uh, South Pole expedition, you know, it's gonna be dangerous and risky, we'll probably, you know, we may not come back alive, but if we do, there'll be glory. That kind of negative sell, um, I think was a critical point for us where, you know, Five Guys is a really hard job, huge expecta- physically demanding job. Um, it's not for everybody. And, and, you know, stating that and being confident enough to say, "Look, you know, y- y- you're a very talented human, you know, professional in food and beverage, but you're just not the right fit for us." And being... the confidence to say no in that regard, that was hard, but I think that was a real turning point, um, in the business for us.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What about firing people?
- JEJohn Eckbert
... a, it's the worst part of the business. Um, really hard. You know, I mean, it's, um, you know, if- if you, if you get it wrong, it's so painful. Um, you know, these are people who you know, who are human beings. Um, and if the job's either outgrown them, um, or they were the wrong cultural fit, um, it's really, obviously it's hard for them, but it's, I mean, it's def- it's really a, it's- it's a soul-crushing moment, um, which makes it that much more important to hire right in the, in the interview for culture. You know, whe- but wh- when- when an interview finally gets to my level, I am 100% focused on culture. I mean, the- the whole qualification of their professional skills is- has been addressed by the time they get to me, and I am solely focused on, are you a good cultural fit? Um, are you the kind of person who, you know, obviously is good at what you do, but are you gonna be- when- when we're in the trenches and when the- the chips are down and we have to make the hard calls, are you gonna value the- the same things that I will and that- that we do as a company, um, to make your decision?
- SBSteven Bartlett
What is your philosophy though, for- for moving people on? You have a clear philosophy around hiring people. What is the philosophy for moving people on? 'Cause I've made... I've... This is, again, one of my other biggest mistakes in my professional career, was allowing people who were clearly not a right fit to kind of overstay their- their, uh, journey with my company.
- JEJohn Eckbert
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I w- I just wish sometimes that I had... 'Cause the- the net damage of that, when you- your gut tells you this isn't, this is not the right person-
- JEJohn Eckbert
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... but maybe for whatever reasons, emotional reasons, you don't act fast enough-
- JEJohn Eckbert
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... is so severe.
- 46:42 – 50:43
Attention to detail
- JEJohn Eckbert
- SBSteven Bartlett
How important have you realized it to be in the Five Guys business and for the success of the Five Guys brand to have a real high attention to detail and to sweat the small stuff? 'Cause a lot of businesses don't sweat the small stuff.
- JEJohn Eckbert
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
They kinda see it as being petty or not mattering, and they kinda focus more on, like, the big decisions they make.
- JEJohn Eckbert
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But h- you know, what's your sort of philosophy towards the small stuff?
- JEJohn Eckbert
Um, well, first of all, I- I think being operationally focused is something that defines your business, um, and for us... So our details are the standards for cooking burgers and fries, and you can never focus on that enough. Um, you c-... And, you know, if you're not actually cooking burgers and fries, you better be supporting someone who is in the business. So that- that kind of, um, horrible disconnection that you can sometimes have of a head office, people who call it the head office, we call it the back office, um, you know, from the actual business-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JEJohn Eckbert
... um, is- is, you know, to me, is the death knoll for, uh, you know, for- for certainly for a food and beverage business. Um, so having that connectivity to the detail of, um, of the- the purpose of our business, which is feeding hungry customers, uh, is- is, to me, is essential. Um, now, from a detail perspective, I don't want to get into the details of my IT guy or my marketing team or the property team. You know, I've hired people who are fantastic at that, and- and I don't want to be into the details. I can't be into the details of each of those professional expertise that you hire for. You have to hire talent and let them do their, um, their professional expertise.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But how do you check that, you know, if something... say something in one of your stores and say, like... W- we mentioned Milton Keynes, so let's just keep focusing on that. Um, in Milton Keynes, if standards have dropped because of the leadership there, how are you checking that-... those standards are staying high.
- JEJohn Eckbert
Yeah, so we mystery shop every store twice a week.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay.
- JEJohn Eckbert
Uh, and- and we put the money that we would typically, that other brands would spend on advertising, we spend in incentive compensation for crew. So we pay out millions and millions of pounds of incentive compensation to crew to be the- to be the best of the best. Um, and we grade... So the mystery shop looks like 120 points of what, of what's important from a burgers and fries perspective, from a cleanliness perspective, from a customer service perspective. Um, and the top-rated, um, shops that have, um, that perform get paid incentive compensate- meaningful incentive compensation. Um, so I- I'd say that com- uh, back to the competitiveness-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JEJohn Eckbert
... everybody wants to get paid, everybody wants to compete for that excellence and to be recognized for that. Um, so mystery shopping, I think, is a, is a fantastic way of, um, ensuring that we're all focused on the same thing.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And if you find the location is continually ranking at the bottom of that mystery shopping scoreboard, what- what- what are the next steps of action?
- JEJohn Eckbert
Yeah, well, I mean, you know, the- the first question is in-store leadership. You know, who's- who's leading the store? Are they the right person? Do they have the right orientation? Do they have the right values? Um, are th- are they trained enough to- to do their job well? Um, so, um, you know, w- w- we have a very flat organization where you go from general manager to district manager, s- ar- area manager, and then, you know, basically the top of the business. Um, so it's- it's pretty f- pretty quick. Um, and- and I do, um, what's called a mid-year review. Um, I'm actually missing a couple to be on your, uh-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh, thank you. (laughs)
- JEJohn Eckbert
... on your, on your podcast today. Uh, uh, but w- we have every GM stand and present their store's performance once a year in June, July, August, in that timeframe. Um, and so I get a view of the in-store leadership. You know, who is that human being who's in charge of that store? What do they have to say about the results that they've delivered, both from a financial perspective, most of all, from a perfor- from a customer service perspective and a quality perspective? So you kind of get a direct view into who is that human being who's running the store.
- 50:43 – 55:18
How do you keep calm?
- JEJohn Eckbert
- SBSteven Bartlett
One of the things that's happened over the last couple of years is this, this pandemic. It's been this very tectonic shift, um, in many industries, but there- there are few industries that have been affected more than, like, the High Street and, um, retail and food and beverage. There's been real tectonic shifts in technology and footfall in all of these things. Um, as the CEO of a business that's gone through such chaos, how do you maintain your own personal calm within all of that chaos? 'Cause it is just never-ending. We were talking before we started recording, you've gone from a pandemic, to inflation issues, to this sort of Great Resignation, and a h- and a, you know, talent crisis as they're talking about. All of these things happening at once. You're a human being-
- JEJohn Eckbert
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... in the heart of that. How do you enjoy your life and- and keep calm and, you know-
- JEJohn Eckbert
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
... not annoy your partner or whatever?
- JEJohn Eckbert
(laughs) Um, yeah, I'm sure I do all those things. Uh, I'm sure, I'm sure I- I don't keep calm all the time. Um, and that's okay. Um, you know, I think just as we in the business try to keep things simple, um, focus on burgers and fries, um, I think there's keeping focused on just a few things and picking the couple of dials that, that will determine whether you survive, whether you live or, or die, um, whether you win or lose, um, and hopefully picking those right things to focus on, um, I think is the way I try and- and- and manage myself as a CEO. Um, you know, I think... it's interesting, you know, the- the moments that I consider to be the most intense and the most rewarding as a, as a leader, um, are the human ones, where because I'm CEO, um, people have to explain what's going on in their lives. Um, and those moments are just rich gold for me as a human being, where someone comes to me and says, "You know, I have g- I've got a parent who's suffering from dementia, and I have to, you know, have to spend some time looking after that." And, um, or, you know, "I- I've- I've- I've had a loss, and I've gotta figure out, um, you know, how to manage that, that loss." And- and- and those human connection points are, um, are... and- and actually, that kind of feeds back into our family value, um, you know, where we... And- and as a CEO, I have my, a- a smaller direct report community that I have to take care of those human beings. And I... And my- my view is that if I can take care of those human beings, they'll- they'll do their job and take care of- of their human beings. So recognizing that it's not, you know, it's not all dollars and, uh, pounds and- and pence, it's not all, um, you know, KPIs that you can manage, it's not quarterly earnings, it's the human beings. And if- and if you focus on them, um, particularly on the vulnerable moments when they're most, um, upset, when they're most, um, at risk, um, being able to say, "Here, you know, take a week, take a..." You know, what- what- what- what you need as a human being is important for the business, 'cause I need you, I need your professional acumen, but I need it focused.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JEJohn Eckbert
So being m- being sure that they're all right in those moments I think is, uh, um, gives me the satisfaction that I'm looking for from the job of- of- of chief exec. Um, my dad was a psychiatrist, um, and, you know, was obviously clearly focused on mental health and wellbeing, and, you know, from a chemical perspective, um, and, you know, realizing that whatever- whatever chemical... I mean, obviously I'm sure he did important work in that regard. Um, but you can... At work, you have the ability to either build up or tear down someone's mental health. And being able to provide an environment where someone's mental health is protected, and, um, perhaps even tended to, um, I think is a, is a powerful, um-... it's a powerful thing for me as a, as a leader. And, and I, and I, and hope, uh, and it, what would I see is that, that approach carrying out throughout the business. So that style of leadership, um, is, you know, is, is contagious, a- as a value in the business. So, you know, if, if someone's in distress, um, i- in, in a crew, um, you know, the, the, the shift will suffer and you have to take care of that person who's, um, in distress, um, and, um, understand them and, and see what it takes to build them back up, and to provide them the support and security to, to be effective in their job.
- 55:18 – 1:09:38
Hardest moments & how to handle them
- JEJohn Eckbert
Um-
- SBSteven Bartlett
What about your mental health? When was your hardest time?
- JEJohn Eckbert
My hardest time?
- SBSteven Bartlett
In, uh, in your Five Guys journey?
- JEJohn Eckbert
Yeah. Well, um, I was, uh, I went through a very painful divorce, um, and, uh, went through something called leave to remove, which I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. Um, it's the... Essentially it's the right to have your children taken out of the country. So I had, uh, two young children, um, who, um, w- the court system approved leave to remove, um, which allowed my ex to, to take, uh, my kids back to America, um, which was, um, incredibly painful. Um, and my whole, um, view of myself, my definition of who I was, um, changed. I thought, I thought of myself as a, a, you know, great partner, good husband, good father, devoted father. Um, you know, I was in politics back in America, um, was involved in my community and, uh, church leader and, um, and businessman, and I thought, you know, all these things are who I am. And essentially, all of that was, uh, you know, uh, uh, uh, quite a large bonfire of vanities. Um, and that was a real dark, dark moment for me. Um, and there were, there were days when Five Guys was the one thing in my life that was stable and that I could hold onto, and that really pulled me through, um, a very difficult dark time, uh, personally.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How long did that, that process last?
- JEJohn Eckbert
Um, I, that's part of the UK challenge. It took years. Um, you know, better part of two years, um, were in that process. Um, and then, um, you know, trying to, um, rebuild those relationships, and thankfully, I'm in a, uh, amazing place with my kids now, um, and have, um, you know, accepted that they... that, that we have had a more adult relationship prematurely, um, but now that they're both at university, um, it feels more normal, um, now and, um, those are hard-fought, hard, hard-won recast relationships, um, which, you know, were really important, are important to me. Um, but was, I was... the thought that they were at risk was, um, caused just enormous anxiety, and, and living with that kind of anxiety on the personal side, having a, having a place where, um, you know, things were more, um, predictable was, um... and being able to work in that way and provide for them, um, was, uh, you know, a, a real, um... yeah, really helped me through.
- SBSteven Bartlett
When your kids are essentially taken away to another country and you, but you've got this huge responsibility of running this big business-
- JEJohn Eckbert
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... how do, how does that impact your ability to show up every day professionally?
- JEJohn Eckbert
Yeah. Well, I mean, it, it was, it was, it was really complex for me because I had a non-compete back in the US for the business that I had sold, so I couldn't just relocate back to America and do my job. Um, so it felt like a, a huge catch-22 'cause I had these court-ordered financial obligations, and the only way that I could really fulfill them was to keep doing my job here. Um, so-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Court-ordered financial obligations as in the separation costs and stuff that you have to pay to your partner?
- JEJohn Eckbert
Yeah, exactly. Um, so it, it, it felt like a catch-22. They were allowed to leave, but I had to provide for them, so I had to stay, and so it was, it f- it felt like a, um, kind of a indentured servanthood for a bit. But, um, you know, being able to, um, to focus on, um, on a, on the j- important job that I had actually was enormously relieving 'cause I knew that for, you know, 10 hours a day, you know, 12 hours a day, whatever it, whatever it ended up being, that I could actually do something productive that I knew I was good at, um, that made a difference for them, um, and that, um, was i- it, the, the anxiety of, of being separated I, I could set aside for a few, you know, for those hours in a day, and that was really helpful. Um, it, it, it, it could've abso- just kind of overwhelmed me. Um, but work was able to, um, it was, it was a place where I could, where I could escape from that.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Did you see, uh, uh, your motivation fluctuate? Often when we have these, like, pretty substantial life events, there's an initial period where getting out of bed in the morning is a little bit more difficult. It's almost like someone has messed with your why-
- JEJohn Eckbert
Mm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... your reason to get out of bed and your sense of purpose.
- JEJohn Eckbert
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So you always have to... I've, I've learned from my own experiences that you have to spend a little bit of time... You're almost faking it-
- JEJohn Eckbert
Mm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... to get, to get the drive back, if that makes sense?
- JEJohn Eckbert
Yeah. No, of course. No, well, uh, you know, I told you I got up at 5:00 AM when I was a kid and practiced violin for an hour before, before, uh, school. And w- what... I mean, I, I was never a great musician, but what I did find was that if you did something every day, you actually could get better at it and maybe even more than competent. Um, and I think it was something like that that just in me, you know, said, you know, "Get out of bed. Do the next, do the next thing, um, and something, things will change." You will... I, I, I called a friend of mine who'd been through a, a similar, um, situation, um, and he said, "You know, just keep showing up." You know, uh, you know, texting my son every day, calling, you know, every day, um, being as present as I possibly could, um, and, you know-... it, obviously it's imperfect, um, and it's deeply upsetting, I'm sure, to them, as well as, as well as to me. Um, but doing as much as you possibly can, uh, to be available and in touch. Um, and, and then you just have to trust, um, tr- trust something, that it'll be okay.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Trust something? As in just trust life that it will...
- JEJohn Eckbert
No, I mean, you know, I, I... now we're getting very personal even, but, uh, you know, I, I mean, I believe in a higher power. Um, I, I don't, I don't pretend to understand it, um, but I think there's something much more powerful than I am in the world. Um, and what, what I will say is, is that it helped me to see the world in two camps. One are things that I can control, um, and some things that I absolutely can't control. Um, and if you spend... if you allocate your mental, um, health and your time on the things that you can't control, um, you can drive yourself to distraction and mad- eventually madness. Um, so being able to focus on the things that you can control, um, and, and, and realizing that that's your job. Um, you know, your job as a human is to do the things that you can control. And if, if you, if you... you know, it's just, it's just arrogance and, and, um, ignorance to, to focus on the things that you can't control. Um, and so identify those... identifying those two camps and being at peace with that, accepting that you can't... some things you can't control, that's really hard, um, but it's hugely important.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. I, I was at this festival this weekend, and there was a... I, I did one-on-one meetings with lots of people that were in the audience for three hours, and I found myself being asked over and over again how to deal with exactly that, which is when chaos arrives in our lives, what to do on that day. And people had me recording these voice notes for them for that day, so when that day comes, they just wanted to be able to play it. And what you said there is exactly what I said, which is, there are a small list of things you can control. And on that tough day, make a promise to me that you'll spend 100% of your mental energy focusing only on those things, 'cause you can't... 'cause obviously yesterday, focusing too much on that tends to lead to depression as, I think the... as Liu Zao, the philosopher says, focusing too much on tomorrow and the things that are y- yet to be in your control will also cause a lot of anxiety. So, really focusing in on today, I think, is just phenomenal advice in terms of, um, A, it's the thing that's most conducive with a successful outcome, but B, it's also the thing that's most conducive with having a healthy mental state in total chaos.
- JEJohn Eckbert
No, I think that's absolutely right. I mean, I, I think the other thing is that realizing that our pur-... I believe our purpose in life is human connection. Um, I think that's why we're here. I think we're, we're made to, to connect. And sometimes it's, you know, we're colliding, you know, and, and... more than connecting, but, but figuring out how to connect with other human beings. And I will say, you know, that was the making of me as, uh, uh, the... and being able to, to... You know, wh- when someone comes into my office and says, "You know, I've, I've lost my, I've lost my partner. You know, they, they passed away, you know, you know, way before their time." You know, being able to connect with that person in that moment of loss is hugely valuable as a company, um, but hugely meaningful to me as a human being. Um, and, and I wouldn't have been able to do that if I, if I hadn't been through the loss that I, that I had experienced. Um, so, you know, it, it's one of those things where you end up being grateful for the, the most upsetting things that happen in your life, um, because I think they're the making of you in many ways.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Because of what you said at the start of this conversation about that importance of feeling like you belonged, and a- and that's so, it's so evident that that is, um, much of the reason you've also been successful, is you're... you, you mean... even from the short conversation we've had, you strike me as a very empathetic person who's able to connect with others. Um, that moment must have been, presumably, even more difficult, because your sense of belonging in that moment was, was taken from you to some degree, the family unit, right?
- JEJohn Eckbert
No, for sure. That was, that was a... yeah, that was a defining moment. Um, but now, you know, the thing about, about Five Guys is that, you know, we have these 8,600 people who get up every morning and have this shared vision mission to make great burgers and fries for hungry customers. Um, and I get to be a part of that. And, you know, I get to be a part of this larger community that, that has this... the... and, and the... you know, winning in business feels fantastic, right? I mean, it's, it's a real, it's a real high. It's a, it's a, um... it, it's a drug, and it's an addiction. And being a part of a community that had... th- th- that's accomplishing this thing... You know, we were the, we were the eighth fastest growing business, uh, in 2016, I think, in the UK, and the fastest growing food and beverage business. And even with that, we never met a budget that I had made. (laughs) So, you know, we were, you know, we, we were fastest, but, you know, still behind by, by, by my mind. And, um, b- being a, being a part of this community that shares our, our values and that are all working towards this is, is enormously satisfying. And, um, and, yeah, fills something that, that, you know, has, has always been empty.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Some days, as CEOs, we... maybe we're tired or, you know, we're in a bad mood or if something's off, um, we can sometimes not show up as our best selves. And sometimes when, when that happens with me, I, I regret it. So I'll, I'll go home and think, "Oh, I just wish I had... I wish I had handled that situation differently." Do you... does that happen to you a lot where you think, "Oh, fuck, I wish I'd been in a better mood or I'd slept more today," or something?
- JEJohn Eckbert
Yeah. Julie tells me when, uh... (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) Who's Julie? (laughs)
- 1:09:38 – 1:14:53
Critical feedback, standards & customer service
- JEJohn Eckbert
anymore."
- SBSteven Bartlett
How do people give, um... H- do you have a s- a system in which people at Five Guys could give, that are working there in the team, could give critical feedback safely?
- JEJohn Eckbert
Yeah, so, I mean, w- we do have kind of, like, the scheduled, uh, annual conversations. Um, uh, I didn't often. Uh, you know, it was kind of in my, you know, in my, in my don't micromanage, um, you know, it was just kind of like, you know, people will come to me if they, you know, if they need to.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JEJohn Eckbert
And I think that, that probably was wrong. Um, and, you know, saying, you know, "Look, we're gonna have a dedicated time," and, and really, you know, I, I don't ha- I don't, like, fill out a form where, you know, I say, "You did well in this and poorly in that." You know? Uh, we don't... I don't do that. You know? Um, but I sit and say, you know, "Let's talk about what worked and what didn't, both from, you know, chance for you to tell me what did and didn't work, but also for us to talk about what didn't go right, you know, and, and worked f- you know, this year for you. Um, and, you know, what do we do to fix that? You know? How do we, how do we make it better?" Um, so I think having a set time to talk about that actually is a good idea, and I've, I've taken that up reluc- somewhat reluctantly, but now, um, enthusiastically.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You, you... M- much of this conversation has centered around, um, Five Guys' sort of central philosophy of really, really caring about the customer, and you, you talked a little bit about how each store has mystery shoppers that come in and, and make sure those standards are maintained. Um, is your objective now to push the standards up even further?
- JEJohn Eckbert
(sighs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Or is it to maintain the standards?
- JEJohn Eckbert
No, I, I, I, uh... Well, well, first of all, I think... You know, w- I'm responsible for Germany, France, Spain, Portugal, UK, and in each market has a little different national temperament.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JEJohn Eckbert
And figuring out what constitutes good customer service is a l- is a bit of a nuanced thing in each given market.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Give me an example of the difference.
- JEJohn Eckbert
Um, you know, d- does, does someone want to be checked back on, you know, s- so they're, they're, you know, if someone's sitting there eating their food, you know, and they're kind of like... One of the things we talk about is first-mover advantage. You should have your head on a swivel, looking around for people who are looking for a solution to a problem with their meal. Um, and y- y- I'm sure you've had that, you know, where like, you know, "I'd like some-"
- SBSteven Bartlett
All the time.
- JEJohn Eckbert
... "you know, like, like some extra topping or sauce or something," and, and you can't get anybody's attention, and so teaching someone how to, how to be in tune with a customer who's looking for help, and that's very culturally, uh, dependent, um. The, uh, someone can communicate that very differently, um, in, you know, in d- in the different markets.
- SBSteven Bartlett
One of the things I've been thinking a lot about, because I had that exact problem recently, was I was in a restaurant, it was very busy, and I feel like I spent 15 minutes, like, trying to get someone's attention to try and get-
- JEJohn Eckbert
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... some ketchup.
- JEJohn Eckbert
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, the food goes cold. I'm like, you know... Uh, then I start eating it. By the time they've come-
- JEJohn Eckbert
But you really wanted that ketchup, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JEJohn Eckbert
It's like the really...
- SBSteven Bartlett
And it's gone before th- then I ask for the ketchup, and I've eaten it before the ketchup, so I just have a bowl of ketchup and no food.
- JEJohn Eckbert
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, and I was thinking, I was sat there in this restaurant in, in Spain a week ago, and I was thinking, "If they just had an iPad on the table, I could've pressed the button, and they would've known, and they would've... and it would've helped them 'cause I'm sure they want to help me, they just weren't aware."
- JEJohn Eckbert
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I would've got helped faster. Have you not, uh, considered implementing more technology in and, i- in the place of, um, human beings? That sounds pretty brutal, but it's just the truth.
- JEJohn Eckbert
Yeah. No, t- I mean, technology is part of the solution, and certainly, I mean, and, and actually probably your phone is already there-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
Episode duration: 1:42:04
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