Growing A 10+ Million Youtube Following At The Age of 22: Joe Sugg | E172

1. 0:00 – 1:16

   Intro

   1. JSJoe Sugg0:00

      I started to feel anxious. We were getting followed by, uh, a guy. Like, my mind is panicking. I actually can't concentrate on driving 'cause I know this person is just trying to follow us.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett0:10

      A Strictly finalist, written a book, the West End.

   3. JSJoe Sugg0:13

      An internet sensation. Joe Sugg.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett0:16

      You started at 19, 20 years old. By '22, you had about six million subscribers.

   5. JSJoe Sugg0:20

      Yeah.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett0:20

      That's fucking nuts.

   7. JSJoe Sugg0:21

      It was so uncertain about where that was gonna go. The rise, but also the fall, can happen so quick. That imposter syndrome that I already had got amplified. Anxiety, self-doubt, the whole thing just didn't feel real.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett0:37

      Dianne, you met her on Strictly.

   9. JSJoe Sugg0:39

      First real proper girlfriend, yeah. The further you go in that competition, the higher the pressure is and the stress gets. We saw the best and the worst of each other. I always thought it would be a very private thing. It's actually ended up being the complete opposite.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett0:51

       Hand on heart, do you think if you had never started YouTube you'd be happier overall?

   11. JSJoe Sugg0:57

       Good question. Um...

   12. SBSteven Bartlett1:00

       So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. (gentle music)

2. 1:16 – 7:57

   Early Years

   1. SBSteven Bartlett1:16

      Joe.

   2. JSJoe Sugg1:16

      Hello.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett1:18

      Tell me, what are the most important things that I need to know about you from your early years in order to understand you?

   4. JSJoe Sugg1:25

      Um...

   5. SBSteven Bartlett1:26

      In order to understand the man that you are today.

   6. JSJoe Sugg1:28

      The man I am today. I was quite a loud child. I was a loud, annoying child growing up. When we look back through, like, family videos, um, it's, it's quite embarrassing to watch. Particularly me because, um, I, I'm this, I was the sort of boy that would be like, "Mummy, watch this, watch this." Like, repeating myself over and over again. And we're watching it back like, "Oh, shut up." Like, "You were an annoying child." But then, um, at some point, I flipped and I don't know when that was, but at some point I flipped and became a very, sort of timid, quite shy child. Um, always very creative, even from an early, early age, um, I was, uh, a good drawer. I used to draw, illustrate and draw a lot of pictures at school. Um, which definitely came from, passed down from my parents. Mum and dad both very creative in their own, in their own sense. I went to a very, very small primary school, um, in rural Wiltshire. Uh, I think there's 52 pupils in our, in our whole school. Going from there to secondary school was a big change for me 'cause that was going from 52 pupils in the whole school to over 1,000. So that was a big... Which probably could have a, a, a reason why I went from being sort of quite a loud, annoying child to being a lot more, sort of, "Oh, I'm at my depth here." Um, now a small fish in a big pond.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett2:54

      You, uh, I read in the book, uh, in chapter one of Grow that you were quite self-deprecating at that point.

   8. JSJoe Sugg3:00

      In secondary school, yeah.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett3:01

      Yeah.

   10. JSJoe Sugg3:01

       Yeah, yeah. Primary school, I, I feel like primary school I was, uh, I was a lot more confident. Everyone knew ev- everyone very well and I just felt, like, a lot more popular then.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett3:11

       Mm-hmm.

   12. JSJoe Sugg3:12

       And then, yeah, moving to secondary school, it was much more, like, yeah, like I say, it was, it was a very different place. Um, and that's when I first sort of encountered teasing and bullying and stuff. And I wasn't necessarily, like, bullied. I w- but it was more, like, if there was ever, like, teasing going on or, or things that they were trying to sort of dig, I very quickly sort of realized if I'm already sort of poking fun at myself, th- they will get bored of trying to poke fun at me. So there's less chance of that happening.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett3:47

       At that age, in secondary school, would you consider yourself to be a, a confident child?

   14. JSJoe Sugg3:52

       No. No. It... Do you know what? Silently confident. Like, in my head I've always been the sort of person where I can... I know what I'm capable of and, like, I know that, that, uh, I think, you know, I know that I'm... I can do certain things to a good standard and I know that I, I, I can be a good student and all this kind of stuff. Um, but on the outside, not as confident at all. So like, with work and stuff I was very confident. I was confident that I'd be able to get the grades and do well in school and things like that. But it's more the sort of social side of it, I found that a lot more difficult.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett4:28

       Well, if I'd asked you at that age what you wanted to be when you grew up, what would you, what would you tell me? Say, like, 16-ish.

   16. JSJoe Sugg4:33

       16, I wanted to be... I wanted to work in media but I wanted to be more, go more down the route of, um, animation. My goal as a kid, initially, first of all it was an archeologist.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett4:46

       (laughs) Of course, yeah.

   18. JSJoe Sugg4:47

       I wanted to be a Indiana Jones. And then, uh, secondary school, um, I wanted to work for Aardman. I wanted to be an animator, like model builder, um, or just... I think... I've got, I've got a lot of patience. And, uh, if you know what animation's like, or how long it took to make Chicken Run or Wallace & Gromit, you know, those films take a long time to make. So I wanted to... Yeah, I, I felt like I'd be good to do that and I wanted to, wanted to work for, for Aardman.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett5:12

       Your, your, your grades at, at A- A level were really good.

   20. JSJoe Sugg5:16

       Yeah.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett5:16

       Uh, which was surprising 'cause then, uh, you know, most people with those kind of grades, they get As and stuff, would then go off to university.

   22. JSJoe Sugg5:22

       Yeah.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett5:23

       You chose not to.

   24. JSJoe Sugg5:24

       No, yeah, it's... Uh, so we did, uh, work experience. I don't know if you did the same, like, when you turn 16.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett5:31

       Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

   26. JSJoe Sugg5:31

       You have to get informed-

   27. SBSteven Bartlett5:32

       Oh, yeah. I went to a dentist.

   28. JSJoe Sugg5:32

       Did ya? Nice, yeah.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett5:33

       And I fell asleep every day, so... Yeah. It's all right.

   30. JSJoe Sugg5:35

       (laughs) I, um, I, I decided to go roof thatching with my uncle. So my uncle is a roof thatcher, which is a, uh, a very old, traditional craft that they don't really teach anymore. It's very, like, kind of there's no classes you can go and take and you can't study for it. You've got to actually go on the job and work on the job and you learn. And when the master thatcher thinks you're ready, you then go from being an apprentice to a master thatcher. And my school, I remember my school advised that I didn't do it.... but I went and did it anyway. Shouldn't have done, sorry. Uh, but I, I, I, so I went and did that, and then, um, I absolutely loved it. I, and it was, it wa- I was outside. I think what it was is I was outside. It was, it was tough. Like, I wasn't really, I was lifting a lot of straw and moving things and sweeping up, but I, but I absolutely loved it. It's, there's something about, like, when we finished a roof, we'd look at what we'd done and it's just, that feeling, I wanted to bottle that up and be like, "That's what I want for the rest of my life." So I decided that I wanted to be a roof thatcher for the rest of my life. I'm the sort of per- I'm very, kind of, I'm very bad at making my mind up on things as well. There's a lot going on. I'm very bad at making my mind up on stuff, so I was like, "What if it doesn't work out later on down the line? I need to have A levels, so if I, if this doesn't go to plan or, you know, after a while I don't like it, I can at least then try out university and go back to trying to work for s- s- something in the media or, or art or something." So, um, but I didn't. I just sort of, I, I, I always liked the idea of having safety nets underneath me. So if something, if something doesn't go to plan, it's all right, you've always got that safety net of... And that's kind of, like, in a way, what roof thatching became, because I started doing YouTube as a hobby off the back of the thatching, I did it in my spare time, and that started to take off and, and become a full-time career. But then I was, in a way, safe going into that because I was like, "If it all doesn't pan out," because this is going back to when YouTube wasn't really a career as well, so it was, it was so uncertain about where that was gonna go. But I always felt very, like, secure in the fact that I knew that if it didn't pan out, try it for a year, if it doesn't work, I can go back to a job that I genuinely really, really love. So,

3. 7:57 – 17:45

   Procrastination & self-doubt

   1. JSJoe Sugg7:57

      yeah.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett7:58

      The two, the two ideas that, that almost in sort of collision there was this idea that you are very self-confident in your abilities and that you've always needed a plan B.

   3. JSJoe Sugg8:08

      Yeah.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett8:08

      I was trying to make them make sense-

   5. JSJoe Sugg8:09

      Mm-hmm.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett8:09

      ... as two kind of separate ideas. Because one of them sounded a bit like self-doubt, this idea that sometimes there's a struggle to make a definitive decision and that there's a need for a plan B. Are you someone that has self-doubt at the same time? Y- 'cause y- I think it's im- I think it's possible to understand your talents, but also have doubt in the future and how things will pan out.

   7. JSJoe Sugg8:31

      Yeah. I'm the sort of person where I think of the best case scenario, so, like, I, I have those im- like, I've got a very vivid imagination, so, with, with everything that I go into, I always think of the best possible outcome, which then gives me that sort of self-confidence. But then I also have Mr. Self-Doubt on the other side, who finds the worst case scenario, and then they, they have a battle in my head of how I should think, and it, that, I think that's where the indecision comes from with a lot of stuff. I live with it. I'm glad I've kind of got it, because without, like, I would, I wouldn't want to always have the self-doubt there, and I also wouldn't ever w- always want to have the self-confidence there, because I think that would make me a completely different person, maybe a person that I don't like either.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett9:16

      Mm-hmm.

   9. JSJoe Sugg9:17

      So, I don't know. It's, there's, there's, um... Yeah. I have, I have both.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett9:23

       Th- that's, that's the thing with, um, with the self-doubt, if it's just a little bit too high, and I, I learned this actually from a guest on this podcast called Nir Eyal, he, um, h- his, he wrote a book on why we get distracted and ultimately, like, why we pro- procrastinate on things, and he says procrastination is the result of us trying to avoid a task or thing that's, that we have psychological discomfort associated with.

   11. JSJoe Sugg9:43

       Yeah.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett9:43

       So when you're like, you know you've got the essay to do, you'll end up doing the washing up-

   13. JSJoe Sugg9:46

       Mm-hmm.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett9:46

       ... because that's a task you're competent in, um, whereas with the essay, you know there's loads of research to do, you're not necessarily, you don't feel comfortable starting yet.

   15. JSJoe Sugg9:54

       Yeah.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett9:54

       There's something missing. So there's mental psychological discomfort, so you just go do the dishes.

   17. JSJoe Sugg9:57

       Yep.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett9:57

       And I think self-doubt is one of the things that leads us to have that psychological discomfort, where we just kind of delay it and wait for that perfect time or-

   19. JSJoe Sugg10:04

       Yeah.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett10:04

       ... go do the dishes.

   21. JSJoe Sugg10:05

       I have that all the time. And it's, I, I, I always say, "It's because I'm creative. It's because I'm creative." It's like, I get scared. I don't know if scared is the right word, but I, yeah, I put it off. Like, if, if I know I've got something I want to do that's, that is creative and requires a lot of, sort of sitting around thinking beforehand and then putting pen to paper or, or, um, anything that's gonna involve the creative process, I delay it and I, I think it's a thing of, like, "What if I start doing it and instantly I don't like it?" And I'm like, "Ah, this is not how I imagined." Because you, you sort of, in your mind, you have this version of it's all just gonna come flowing out of the pen or you're gonna start filming, um, something and it's all just gonna go perfect to plan, and it, and it doesn't. And it very, very often does it all just completely flow. Um, and I think that, that kind of puts a block in. I'm always like, "If I'm gonna do it, I need to make sure everything's prepared beforehand."

   22. SBSteven Bartlett10:57

       That is very interesting. A lot of the time as well we say to ourselves that we're, "The reason I'm not starting it or the reason I have that procrastination is because I'm a perfectionist."

   23. JSJoe Sugg11:05

       Mm-hmm.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett11:06

       I, I've, I really wa- you know, everyone loves that, 'cause it's a nice way of framing yourself as being, as having really, really, really high standards and being... Honestly, it's kind of like saying, "I'm, the reason I've not started it yet or the reason I struggle is because I'm amazing."

   25. JSJoe Sugg11:19

       Yeah. (laughs)

   26. SBSteven Bartlett11:19

       It's almost like saying that, when really, a lot of the time, it's probably self-doubt and that psychological discomfort associated with you don't feel fully competent or like you could fully nail it.

   27. JSJoe Sugg11:29

       Yeah.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett11:29

       And you're trying to avoid the mess which, which we all encounter as we do anything.

   29. JSJoe Sugg11:33

       Yeah. I think it's li- it's kind of like that... I, I think it's from that part of my brain that's like, seeing the best possible outcome.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett11:40

       Yeah.
4. 17:45 – 25:46

   The rapid success of early Youtubers & its impact

   1. SBSteven Bartlett17:45

      we signed some YouTubers back in that, those days, so maybe not... 'Cause you were, you were very, very early, but-

   2. JSJoe Sugg17:50

      Yeah.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett17:50

      ... in 2013, '14, we signed a bunch of YouTubers.

   4. JSJoe Sugg17:53

      Yeah.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett17:54

      And still to this day, none of them were as near, near the size of, of you and that sort of British cohort of, like, YouTube megastars.

   6. JSJoe Sugg18:01

      Yeah.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett18:01

      But still to this day, I do... And they must have been 18, 19, 20 years old, I still think it ruined their lives.

   8. JSJoe Sugg18:07

      Yeah.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett18:08

      ... because I watched an 18-year-old, 19-year-old kid who had started a YouTube channel, got to 200,000, 300,000 subscribers when there was no ... v- v- vid- that was the only shop in town for video.

   10. JSJoe Sugg18:17

       Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett18:17

       This was before Facebook video-

   12. JSJoe Sugg18:19

       Yep.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett18:19

       ... and Instagram and Snap and all and Twitter video.

   14. JSJoe Sugg18:21

       Yep.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett18:21

       So that was where, as brands, we were just p- pumping all the money into these YouTubers.

   16. JSJoe Sugg18:24

       Yep.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett18:25

       I watched those kids turn down 15 grand to show up to a fucking movie premiere-

   18. JSJoe Sugg18:29

       Yeah.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett18:29

       ... or to just show face. When that-

   20. JSJoe Sugg18:32

       Yep.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett18:32

       (laughs) When that wave comes into shore and hits the beach and it's over-

   22. JSJoe Sugg18:35

       Yeah.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett18:35

       ... I don't, those k- I don't, those kids are in a psychological trap almost-

   24. JSJoe Sugg18:40

       Yeah.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett18:40

       ... with their own e- personal expectations of the world. And I, and I, and I really worry about that because success has often, is, can be a curse because it, 'cause of the way it messes with our own personal expectations of ourself and of the world.

   26. JSJoe Sugg18:52

       Yep.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett18:52

       And in s- in some respects, that sounds like what you're saying. Your expectations back then, everything you guys touched did turn to gold.

   28. JSJoe Sugg18:58

       Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett18:59

       A- and now you're saying it's, it's a little bit more difficult.

   30. JSJoe Sugg19:01

       Yeah. Bronze. (laughs)
5. 25:46 – 33:04

   Your Youtube journey

   1. JSJoe Sugg25:46

      talking to him about Skype. (laughs)

   2. SBSteven Bartlett25:47

      Those experiences, especially when they're really quick and they go from zero to 100, people, when they're... when they sit here with them, often talk to me about imposter syndrome.

   3. JSJoe Sugg25:56

      Yeah.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett25:57

      Because you... As you said, you're kind of living a double life.

   5. JSJoe Sugg26:01

      Yeah.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett26:01

      You're like, "What the fuck am I doing?"

   7. JSJoe Sugg26:02

      Yeah.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett26:02

      "I've got a straw in my shoe, and Simon Cowell and..."

   9. JSJoe Sugg26:04

      Definitely, yeah. Imposter syndrome, there's definitely a lot of that going on. Um...

   10. SBSteven Bartlett26:10

       And that must result in overthinking and doubt and-

   11. JSJoe Sugg26:12

       Yeah.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett26:12

       ... all those things we talked about.

   13. JSJoe Sugg26:13

       Yeah. And that's another thing, actually, that I would say to younger Joe, is that you're gonna get this thing called imposter syndrome. Um, you'll learn about it later, but, yeah, it'll be there. Um, and I've... I, yeah, I've had that even, even now to this day, like, I, it's, uh, even, sort of, like, even now with this podcast, like, I've, I'm listening to this podcast all the time.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett26:34

       Mm-hmm.

   15. JSJoe Sugg26:34

       And, uh, even on the way here, I was a bit nervous because I was like, you get, like, these, you know, these incredible CEOs on and these people that are so good at talking, and I struggle to get a sentence together most of the time. And I'm like, I... Even me, I, I have to, like... There's people on there that have done such amazing things and I'm like, for m- even for me, it still gives me that little bit of imposter syndrome of, like, there should be other people. There's a lot more people that should be sat in this chair rather than me.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett27:01

       What's the risk of that? Because, uh, you know, I imagine... A lot of people that... For me, the risk is, um, you end up, like, avoiding, like, opportunities in life and stuff because... I'm sure there must've been people that we've asked to come on this podcast before that, through imposter syndrome, said no. Like, they, they... Because we do get a lot of people come here and they'll say a similar thing. We've had... I mean, I can think of a few people who literally came here and was like, "I don't know why you've asked me to be here."

   17. JSJoe Sugg27:24

       Hmm.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett27:25

       And that must impact performance. It must make the whole thing unpleasant. I mean, at least the lead-up, anyway.

   19. JSJoe Sugg27:30

       Yeah.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett27:30

       Until, "I'm such a..." You know?

   21. JSJoe Sugg27:32

       It does, yeah.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett27:32

       "... important."

   23. JSJoe Sugg27:32

       I, I think, like, a good example for me is, is doing Strictly or even, um, actually, probably even more so is, uh, Waitress in the West End. So I-

   24. SBSteven Bartlett27:42

       Mm-hmm.

   25. JSJoe Sugg27:42

       ... I did a stint on, on the West End in Waitress, and this was coming off the back of doing Strictly, so my confidence, actually, uh, it completely changed me in a sense that it gave me such a big boost of confidence, which I didn't, hadn't had for a long time. Um, and so riding on that confidence, I agreed to, uh, to do, uh, a audition for, uh, Ogie in Waitress in the West End, and, um, I remember, I kept asking, sort of, my, sort of, my team, being like, "Have they asked me because of, like, Strictly or, you know? Will they be honest and, like, if I'm not good enough, will they just tell... I don't want them to just, sort of, put me in it if I'm actually not good 'cause, or I'm not to standard that they'd take someone on." Do you know what I mean? If it's not me. And, uh, they were, they were sort of like, "I think you'll... You know, just go along, you'll be good," all this kind of stuff. And, um, I remember, even after doing the audition and they said they really loved it and things like that, I still... In my mind, I was still like, "But did you though? What... Like, are you sure? Like, are you sure?" And I... Especially, like, the, the, the backlash that I kind of got from that was, was quite... Like, I mean, it's, it's nothing that, sort of, worried me too much, but there was a lot of, like, people that were messaging me being like, "You, you don't deserve this. There's people that have trained their entire lives in musical theater and they're not gonna... They didn't get that... They won't ever get that opportunity 'cause of people like you coming in, taking the, those roles."

   26. SBSteven Bartlett29:05

       Hmm.

   27. JSJoe Sugg29:05

       And so I started to have, like, a massive... And that kind of, like, that imposter syndrome that I already had got amplified, and I was like, "Maybe I shouldn't do it," and just sort of... But then I wonder, I wonder if there's been any, any... I wonder if there's been any times where people have then turned around and said, "Actually, do you know what? I don't, I don't want this because of-"

   28. SBSteven Bartlett29:24

       Oh, so many times.

   29. JSJoe Sugg29:24

       "... what people on social media have said." Do you know what I mean?

   30. SBSteven Bartlett29:26

       Mm-hmm.
6. 33:04 – 38:47

   Dealing with Imposter Syndrome

   1. JSJoe Sugg33:04

      life.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett33:04

      Did your love for YouTube shift, though? Because obviously, y- you start posting less frequently-

   3. JSJoe Sugg33:09

      Yeah.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett33:10

      ... on your main channel-

   5. JSJoe Sugg33:11

      Yeah.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett33:12

      ... um, to the point where... And, and it's funny because as someone that's kind of observed the whole YouTube journey over the years, there seems to have been this point which you've literally spoken about where multiple YouTubers appear to have kind of vanished a little bit.

   7. JSJoe Sugg33:24

      Yeah.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett33:25

      And then they end up posting a video saying, uh, like, almost giving their reason why, saying they're gonna come back-

   9. JSJoe Sugg33:31

      It's, yeah-

   10. SBSteven Bartlett33:32

       ... post another one a year later saying they're gonna come back and they never come back.

   11. JSJoe Sugg33:35

       Yeah.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett33:35

       What is going on?

   13. JSJoe Sugg33:36

       I think... I mean, I- I have to say, I can't speak for everyone, but for myself personally, I th- I, I think it's partly because your- my audience have all grown up, or the audience that I had back then, they've all got older. They've all... they're all in their sort of, I presume, a lot of the ones that started watching me when they were 14, 15. They're all now in their 20s. They've got their own stuff going on and the stuff that I knew how to make back then is not what they want to consume now as content. It's what I sort of-

   14. SBSteven Bartlett34:06

       (laughs)

   15. JSJoe Sugg34:06

       ... gauge from it.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett34:07

       My... I have like a... I have, I have a guess as well, which is, I think, very much in line with what you're saying. I think that the algorithm might have changed a little bit.

   17. JSJoe Sugg34:15

       Yeah.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett34:16

       And I think that... I think a few things happen when that happens. So I think as a creator, you get psychologically demotivated-

   19. JSJoe Sugg34:22

       Yeah.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett34:22

       ... when you're doing the same work and you're not getting... you're getting a... basically, you're getting a vote from your audience to say, "Which sounds like we don't like it anymore."

   21. JSJoe Sugg34:31

       Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett34:31

       And then it seemed like that happened all at the same time with that initial sort of YouTube cohort.

   23. JSJoe Sugg34:35

       Mm-hmm.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett34:36

       And so a lot of them, because they saw declining numbers in whatever they were making, decided to try other formats and other things and go into other places. I remember back in the day, like, YouTube seemed to be much shorter form videos.

   25. JSJoe Sugg34:47

       Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett34:48

       And now you have a lot of long-form stuff, a lot of 55-minute, hour-

   27. JSJoe Sugg34:51

       Yeah.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett34:51

       ... Joe Rogan, three-hour videos on there.

   29. JSJoe Sugg34:53

       Yes. There's always, like, rumors that go around being like, "Oh, this. Have you heard the latest? This is what now-"

   30. SBSteven Bartlett34:57

       Yeah.
7. 38:47 – 38:49

   The fall of the OG Youtubers

   1. SBSteven Bartlett38:47

      (paper rustling) You wrote a book,

8. 38:49 – 41:24

   Grow: Your new book

   1. SBSteven Bartlett38:49

      Grow-

   2. JSJoe Sugg38:50

      Yes.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett38:51

      ... about being outside and in nature. It seems like a, a fairly unobvious topic for someone like yourself to write about. So it was very compelling.

   4. JSJoe Sugg39:01

      Mm-hmm.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett39:02

      Why, why did you decide to write about this, about the importance of going outside?

   6. JSJoe Sugg39:06

      During the lockdown, we were all sort of looking for things to keep us busy and, and I, like we've mentioned before, I love hobbies, I'm always looking for things to do. And I, I had, like, a, a balcony that ran off from my living area and I got into gardening in that small little balcony of the things that I could do at the time and the things that I had lying around, I got really into it and I was, like, sort of, like, caring for a plant and just trying to make a plant grow or, or putting time and effort into something else. Um, and, and sort of not being in the sort of the whirlwind that was going on online, on our phones and stuff at that time, disconnecting myself from that and sort of reconnecting myself with something as simple as, as nature made me feel so good, it took away all kind of, like, anxieties, um, I just felt very calm and very, like, it took me back to my childhood in a sense of, like, how I grew up. I was very lucky to grow up in a, in a little, uh, cottage-type place. Um, so getting all that thought, it's, it's, it's part memoir, like, I talk a lot about, like, growing up in the countryside and, like, and sort of things actually living in London and, and all that kind of stuff, but also a part practical guide of hopefully giving some tips for other people in terms of like how they can find their own balance that suits them in terms of the real world and social media world.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett40:31

      It's quite a personal pivot, isn't it, going from being a YouTuber who's uploading across three YouTube channels and is glued to a screen to standing here holding these pots (laughs) -

   8. JSJoe Sugg40:41

      Yeah. Oh, yeah. No, it's-

   9. SBSteven Bartlett40:42

      ... with these plants in them (laughs) .

   10. JSJoe Sugg40:43

       Yeah. It's f- it is very different. I think, but that's, that's kind of, like, how I've been, I like to separate out tho- like, those two things. And what I've realized is separating those two things out is really beneficial for me. Um, but it's, but it's in no way sort of saying that social media is bad and this kind of thing, you shouldn't be on social media, 'cause like, it's a tool that we all use and we kind of, like, need to use, like, in terms of, like, we've got a personal computer in our hands, it's, it's kind of like an extension of our arm. We use it for so many things. So it's not saying, like, "Don't use your phone, your phone is evil," it's more kind of, like, finding a balance that's right for you that is gonna help you feel better about yourself mentally.

9. 41:24 – 47:03

   Your struggles with mental health

   1. JSJoe Sugg41:24

   2. SBSteven Bartlett41:24

      On that point of thinking, um, mental health has become a, an increasing conversation over the last, uh, 10 years. Social media's played... it's kind of sat in the middle of that debate. Um, being someone that started a big social media business, I talk about this a lot, um, and obviously, you know, people, when we talk about social media and mental health, they'll say, "Well, you made all your money from it, so..." And I, and my rebuttal is always the same, which is, uh, you know, if I, if I've spent 10 years within it and I knew there was something wrong and I didn't tell you (laughs) -

   3. JSJoe Sugg41:50

      Yeah.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett41:50

      ... that would make me even more of an arsehole, right?

   5. JSJoe Sugg41:52

      Yeah.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett41:52

      Just because it had made me money. So having, having been as, like, very deep in social media over the last 10 years, I think we're probably more qualified than most to talk about the impacts it has on us, um, the mind, for, For better and for worse. When you were going through your hard times with social media, when you were having those real anxious m- moments where, um, you've written a few things about how there was about a two-year period with, when, when, when you'd really got going, where you just had this overwhelming sensation that felt like it was impossible to escape. Were, were you telling anybody about it? Were you talking to people? Were you speaking to Zoe, your family and saying, "I'm getting anxiety right now"?

   7. JSJoe Sugg42:25

      Yeah. More so my sister, 'cause my sister has, um, suffered with it a lot throughout her career, um, so-... I, I, I found it ve- I was very lucky that I could speak to her about it and, um, and obviously got a therapist as well, um, that was recommended to me, um, through my sister.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett42:42

      Do you remember that first time you spoke to her about it?

   9. JSJoe Sugg42:44

      She, uh, she was very good about it, in fact, because she's been through a lot of that stuff. She sort of, um, straightaway made me feel better in knowing that... at least it was sort of, sort of acknowledging what it is and then bringing some sort of understanding to it. Um, but it de- it definitely, definitely helped having someone so close to me, like my sister, being able to sort of help with that.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett43:07

       And you spoke to a therapist about this?

   11. JSJoe Sugg43:08

       Yes.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett43:09

       Going to see a therapist has a lot of stigma surrounding it. So, especially men-

   13. JSJoe Sugg43:14

       Mm-hmm.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett43:14

       ... are often very reluctant to do that because I think, especially once upon a time, going and seeing a therapist meant that I was crazy.

   15. JSJoe Sugg43:21

       Oh, yeah, yeah.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett43:22

       So, your journey to, to actually getting into the, into therapy, can you talk to me about that process and what pushed you ultimately to take that step?

   17. JSJoe Sugg43:32

       I think for me it was... I was... I never saw it as a, sort of... I- I don't know whether it's because of my sister, once again, like, through everything sort of, in a, in a way, sort of paving the way through that of, like, being, like, she was, um, seeing a therapist, so I already felt like, "Well, if my sister, my big sister can do it, then, then I can." Do you know what I mean? She, you know, if she can do it, I can, I could do it. So, I was quite lucky in a sense that it was actually a very easy process for me.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett44:07

       What has therapy done for you, practically? Is there anything where you go, "That's, it really helped me with that particular challenge that I had"?

   19. JSJoe Sugg44:14

       It's made me realize that I am a, uh, I've got a thing about people pleasing. I'm a people pleaser. So, I, I often feel like I can't be my unapologetic self in a situation without risking causing offense to someone. I'm, like, terrified of upsetting someone or saying the wrong thing. I'm learning through therapy that, how to sort of manage that and acknowledge it, first and foremost, and then to sort of... and we're working on that at the moment, of trying to sort of work on, like, why I have this thing of being worried so much about what other people think about what I do.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett44:59

       It's a tough business to be in if you, if you, if you have that as a kind of predisposition. Has your therapist been able to offer you any advice about overthinking at all?

   21. JSJoe Sugg45:09

       Yes. Uh, more so in, like, the sort of anxiety s- side of things. There's three, there's, there was, I think two or three points that she suggested and it's, like, de-, decatastrophizing the catastrophe. Um, using time to separate. So like, if I'm, if I'm feeling anxious, I've got to sort of... The way you think about time helps. For example, I was at, um, Chelsea Flower Show recently with my mum, and, um, I was ha- I was engaged in conversation with someone else and I was... but my mind was thinking, like, there's so much going on around me and I was li- I started to feel anxious. I just needed to get out of there. And it started to make me feel sick that I was like, I couldn't leave, and I, and I had, um... I remember I had a glass of champagne in my hand and I was like, "I don't know what to do," 'cause I can't... I was starting to think of all these different scenarios of being like, "I can't just be sick here 'cause I'm in, like, someone's garden. I can't just like, I, I can't just run away and leave mid-conversation because I'm so worried about going to them, sorry, I, I, I can't listen to what you're saying right now because my mind is panicking. I need to go." I was so worried about how they would think of me. So it's like, all that going on, but if you... What I've learned is that if you take that and think, "This conversation is max gonna last five minutes," that helps and it's like, know that after those five minutes, you can walk over there and you can be on your own and do this kind of stuff and it's gonna help. So it's like, kind of like, if you're going into something that you think, "Oh, it's gonna be a five-hour thing," or like an exa- a two-hour exam, you break it down into, like, chunks. So it's like I've got, okay, this two-hour exam is, uh, four 30-minute chunks.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett46:45

       Mm-hmm.

   23. JSJoe Sugg46:45

       And that, that starts to make me feel less anxious about things, and then also sort of thinking ahead of that whole thing. So if you've got an exam, thinking, "Well, after this, I'm gonna go and do this, this, and this, and this." And when you're thinking about things further in the future, it actually starts to make, make me feel more

10. 47:03 – 54:15

    Dianne & you

    1. JSJoe Sugg47:03

       calm.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett47:03

       Dianne. H- You met her on Strictly?

    3. JSJoe Sugg47:07

       Yes.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett47:08

       Strictly gave you a lot, didn't it? (laughs)

    5. JSJoe Sugg47:10

       Yeah, it did. Yeah, yeah. (laughs)

    6. SBSteven Bartlett47:12

       What was really interesting is that was your first girlfriend.

    7. JSJoe Sugg47:15

       Yeah.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett47:16

       That's, that's-

    9. JSJoe Sugg47:17

       First, yeah, first-

    10. SBSteven Bartlett47:18

        First real girlfriend.

    11. JSJoe Sugg47:18

        First real proper girlfriend, yeah.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett47:20

        At, at what age? 26?

    13. JSJoe Sugg47:22

        27? 26?

    14. SBSteven Bartlett47:23

        Yeah.

    15. JSJoe Sugg47:23

        Yeah. God.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett47:24

        I wonder if, had you met her outside of Strictly, if you would be together?

    17. JSJoe Sugg47:29

        Yeah.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett47:30

        Because it seems like you would have done a pretty good job of overthinking your way... (laughs)

    19. JSJoe Sugg47:34

        Is, we have the same conversation, we're like, how lucky it was, in a way, that we were even partnered together. 'Cause when you're partners, if you're n- if we weren't even partners on the show, on the same show, we still say we may not have got together. Because when you're actually with your partners, you don't see each other throughout the week. So, we're, we're like, this, we, we sort of see it as like the stars sort of realigned there and we, and... But it wasn't, um... It was, it was an odd sort of, uh, situation, I guess. It's not, it's not how I thought it would happen. I, I used to be quite, like, nervous about sort of getting a girlfriend publicly because I would always think, "What..." Because I had, at the time, I had this sort of, uh, large female, young female demographic that were, that were really into sort of what I did and things like that, and I was kind of like, I've seen through, like, friends that have got girlfriends, you know, and when they introduce their girlfriends to their audience, it's, it's a bit kind of like a... I always thought it would be a very private thing. In my head, the whole time, I was like, "It'll be very private," and it's, it's actually ended up being the complete opposite. It's like you can now watch the moment we met, which is kind of unusual. (laughs)

    20. SBSteven Bartlett48:45

        It seems, uh, from just speaking to you today and getting to know you a bit, it does seem like that was the perfect way for you to get past... 'cause you were forced together.

    21. JSJoe Sugg48:51

        Yeah. Yeah, and it, yeah-

    22. SBSteven Bartlett48:52

        And you, and it's, you know what I mean? In the, in the context of the show, you were forced to spend time with each other. You weren't there to, to fall in love, but-

    23. JSJoe Sugg48:58

        No.

    24. SBSteven Bartlett48:58

        ... they put you together to do this very quite intimate thing, very deep journey over many, many months.

    25. JSJoe Sugg49:03

        Yep.

    26. SBSteven Bartlett49:03

        And it feels like from a, from just atr- understanding you a little bit, that was probably the best way for you to get past a lot of that, sort of, talking yourself out of it.

    27. JSJoe Sugg49:11

        100%. And do you know what? You, you, you see the... I feel like on that, in that environment anyway, especially for me, is like we saw, I feel like we saw the best and the worst in each other over that, sort of, 16-week period.

    28. SBSteven Bartlett49:22

        Mm-hmm.

    29. JSJoe Sugg49:23

        There have been times where we're going to training and, like, things weren't going to plan. We thought about going home and we'd, you know, stress. Uh, the, the further you go in that competition, the higher the pressure is and the stress gets, and things like that. So we, we saw the best and the worst of each other within those 16, excuse me, within those 16 weeks. And, um, and I was, and afterwards, I was kind of like, when we even sort of like had time to really kind of, sort of address things, like post, um, and be like, "I actually kind of want to spend more time with you," it, 'cause I felt like I kind of, I've seen the best and the worst and I can, you know, I'm happy with that. And it, and it's vice versa. And so, um, so yeah, that's how it, yeah, sort of, how it, sort of, happened.

    30. SBSteven Bartlett50:05

        So the show ends.
11. 54:15 – 59:08

    Our last guest’s question

    1. JSJoe Sugg54:15

       No. I'm absolutely loving it.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett54:16

       We have a, a closing tradition on this podcast where the previous guest asks a question for the next guest-

    3. JSJoe Sugg54:20

       Yeah.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett54:20

       ... not knowing who they're asking it for. Do you remember a moment where you realized that you loved your job? When was it and why? And was there a moment when you realized you hated your job? When was it and why?

    5. JSJoe Sugg54:38

       Ooh. Good question. Um, the moment that I remember that I loved my job...... was there's, there's a lot of little moments that stick out, but I think it... This was going back to, like, the old YouTube gang, so like me, my sister, um, Alfie, Marcus, Butler, Jim, Tanya, a lot of that kind of... The, the, the, the Brick Crew we were called back in the day. Um, we got invited to Harry Potter World-

    6. SBSteven Bartlett55:09

       Mm-hmm.

    7. JSJoe Sugg55:10

       Um, and, um, I'm, I've... I'll admit, I'm not a biggest Harry Potter fan, but just being around, like a... Having, like, a day out with, with that group, that first sort of... 'Cause it was kind of like our first sort of big group out somewhere, and just being around these people. And we were all going through the same situation, which I really appreciate the fact that, uh, there's people within this group that I could chat to and speak to about what was going on. And it was such a new and exciting time, and we were all kind of on that journey up. Um, and I just remember, that's... Or, that memory's always stuck in my head, and there's, weirdly, there's a, there's a vlog. I've vlogged... We all vlogged it, so it's like it's actually been documented so we can go back and watch it in the future and stuff. But, um, that s- really sticks out.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett55:53

       So what about the second part of that question?

    9. JSJoe Sugg55:56

       The... So, a moment where, sorry, a moment where I hated my job?

    10. SBSteven Bartlett55:59

        Yeah.

    11. JSJoe Sugg56:00

        It... I guess it was the time where I had that burnout feeling and I was... I had so much going on and I just thought, "Do you know what? I c- I actually don't really know if I wanna do this anymore." And I, I remember telling my manager at the time, um, Alex, uh, that I was like, "I, look, just don't know if I wanna do this. There's too much going on. I don't... I, I actually can't really handle it." I'm, you know, and I'm thinking about my old job and how much sort of simpler that was and thinking like, "Ugh," it's like... But I had all these things going through my head of like that, a thing of like, "Don't be ungrateful, but also, I am struggling with it." Um, and I guess in that moment would feel like the time I hated it. But it didn't last very long, because my manager at the time, Alex, she'd sent me a, like a care package. She, like, went out and above and beyond and sent me this care package of like a, a book and, um, weirdly it was a Harry Potter book, which, as we know, not, not the biggest fan.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett56:55

        (laughs)

    13. JSJoe Sugg56:55

        But yeah, at the time, it was exactly, like I said, "It's exactly what I needed." Um, so but right before she saved the day, it was, um, yeah-

    14. SBSteven Bartlett57:06

        Tough.

    15. JSJoe Sugg57:06

        ... probably about that, that time, I think.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett57:08

        Um, Joe, thank you so much. Thank you for your time. Thank you for writing a really, uh, important book.

    17. JSJoe Sugg57:12

        Thank you.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett57:12

        I think these kind of messages in a digital, over-stimulated world we're living in, especially our generation and the generation that are coming, are very, very important. And they're very simplifying, which I love, 'cause it's very easy to write very complex things that are, um, that try and make things more complicated than they are in order to make yourself-

    19. JSJoe Sugg57:29

        Yep.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett57:29

        ... sound super smart or to try and trick people to buy something or to think you're a scientist. But I love stuff that is simplifying. It makes it much more-

    21. JSJoe Sugg57:35

        Yeah.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett57:35

        ... accessible. Um, and I think that is, that is why I love this particular book so much. But I also really appreciate your honesty, 'cause you're talking about topics and themes that on one hand very few people will ever get to experience-

    23. JSJoe Sugg57:46

        Yeah.

    24. SBSteven Bartlett57:46

        ... with the crazy career that you had in-

    25. JSJoe Sugg57:48

        Yeah.

    26. SBSteven Bartlett57:48

        ... in YouTube and that you're having in the media and all of these things. But, but also topics that are not always easy to talk about, which is the-

    27. JSJoe Sugg57:55

        Mm-hmm.

    28. SBSteven Bartlett57:55

        ... the difficult harder times. And-

    29. JSJoe Sugg57:57

        Yep.

    30. SBSteven Bartlett57:57

        ... and that balance is exactly why we do what we do here. So thank you for your time. It's been an honor.

Episode duration: 59:07