Growing A 10+ Million Youtube Following At The Age of 22: Joe Sugg | E172

Joe Sugg 0:00 I started to feel anxious. We were getting followed by, uh, a guy. Like, my mind is panicking. I actually can't concentrate on driving 'cause I know this person is just trying to follow us.

Steven Bartlett 0:10 A Strictly finalist, written a book, the West End.

Joe Sugg 0:13 An internet sensation. Joe Sugg.

Steven Bartlett 0:16 You started at 19, 20 years old. By '22, you had about six million subscribers.

Joe Sugg 0:20 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 0:20 That's fucking nuts.

Joe Sugg 0:21 It was so uncertain about where that was gonna go. The rise, but also the fall, can happen so quick. That imposter syndrome that I already had got amplified. Anxiety, self-doubt, the whole thing just didn't feel real.

Steven Bartlett 0:37 Dianne, you met her on Strictly.

Joe Sugg 0:39 First real proper girlfriend, yeah. The further you go in that competition, the higher the pressure is and the stress gets. We saw the best and the worst of each other. I always thought it would be a very private thing. It's actually ended up being the complete opposite.

Steven Bartlett 0:51 Hand on heart, do you think if you had never started YouTube you'd be happier overall?

Joe Sugg 0:57 Good question. Um...

Steven Bartlett 1:00 So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. (gentle music)

Steven Bartlett 1:16 Joe.

Joe Sugg 1:16 Hello.

Steven Bartlett 1:18 Tell me, what are the most important things that I need to know about you from your early years in order to understand you?

Joe Sugg 1:25 Um...

Steven Bartlett 1:26 In order to understand the man that you are today.

Joe Sugg 1:28 The man I am today. I was quite a loud child. I was a loud, annoying child growing up. When we look back through, like, family videos, um, it's, it's quite embarrassing to watch. Particularly me because, um, I, I'm this, I was the sort of boy that would be like, "Mummy, watch this, watch this." Like, repeating myself over and over again. And we're watching it back like, "Oh, shut up." Like, "You were an annoying child." But then, um, at some point, I flipped and I don't know when that was, but at some point I flipped and became a very, sort of timid, quite shy child. Um, always very creative, even from an early, early age, um, I was, uh, a good drawer. I used to draw, illustrate and draw a lot of pictures at school. Um, which definitely came from, passed down from my parents. Mum and dad both very creative in their own, in their own sense. I went to a very, very small primary school, um, in rural Wiltshire. Uh, I think there's 52 pupils in our, in our whole school. Going from there to secondary school was a big change for me 'cause that was going from 52 pupils in the whole school to over 1,000. So that was a big... Which probably could have a, a, a reason why I went from being sort of quite a loud, annoying child to being a lot more, sort of, "Oh, I'm at my depth here." Um, now a small fish in a big pond.

Steven Bartlett 2:54 You, uh, I read in the book, uh, in chapter one of Grow that you were quite self-deprecating at that point.

Joe Sugg 3:00 In secondary school, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 3:01 Yeah.

Joe Sugg 3:01 Yeah, yeah. Primary school, I, I feel like primary school I was, uh, I was a lot more confident. Everyone knew ev- everyone very well and I just felt, like, a lot more popular then.

Steven Bartlett 3:11 Mm-hmm.

Joe Sugg 3:12 And then, yeah, moving to secondary school, it was much more, like, yeah, like I say, it was, it was a very different place. Um, and that's when I first sort of encountered teasing and bullying and stuff. And I wasn't necessarily, like, bullied. I w- but it was more, like, if there was ever, like, teasing going on or, or things that they were trying to sort of dig, I very quickly sort of realized if I'm already sort of poking fun at myself, th- they will get bored of trying to poke fun at me. So there's less chance of that happening.

Steven Bartlett 3:47 At that age, in secondary school, would you consider yourself to be a, a confident child?

Joe Sugg 3:52 No. No. It... Do you know what? Silently confident. Like, in my head I've always been the sort of person where I can... I know what I'm capable of and, like, I know that, that, uh, I think, you know, I know that I'm... I can do certain things to a good standard and I know that I, I, I can be a good student and all this kind of stuff. Um, but on the outside, not as confident at all. So like, with work and stuff I was very confident. I was confident that I'd be able to get the grades and do well in school and things like that. But it's more the sort of social side of it, I found that a lot more difficult.

Steven Bartlett 4:28 Well, if I'd asked you at that age what you wanted to be when you grew up, what would you, what would you tell me? Say, like, 16-ish.

Joe Sugg 4:33 16, I wanted to be... I wanted to work in media but I wanted to be more, go more down the route of, um, animation. My goal as a kid, initially, first of all it was an archeologist.

Steven Bartlett 4:46 (laughs) Of course, yeah.

Joe Sugg 4:47 I wanted to be a Indiana Jones. And then, uh, secondary school, um, I wanted to work for Aardman. I wanted to be an animator, like model builder, um, or just... I think... I've got, I've got a lot of patience. And, uh, if you know what animation's like, or how long it took to make Chicken Run or Wallace & Gromit, you know, those films take a long time to make. So I wanted to... Yeah, I, I felt like I'd be good to do that and I wanted to, wanted to work for, for Aardman.

Steven Bartlett 5:12 Your, your, your grades at, at A- A level were really good.

Joe Sugg 5:16 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 5:16 Uh, which was surprising 'cause then, uh, you know, most people with those kind of grades, they get As and stuff, would then go off to university.

Joe Sugg 5:22 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 5:23 You chose not to.

Joe Sugg 5:24 No, yeah, it's... Uh, so we did, uh, work experience. I don't know if you did the same, like, when you turn 16.

Steven Bartlett 5:31 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Sugg 5:31 You have to get informed-

Steven Bartlett 5:32 Oh, yeah. I went to a dentist.

Joe Sugg 5:32 Did ya? Nice, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 5:33 And I fell asleep every day, so... Yeah. It's all right.

Joe Sugg 5:35 (laughs) I, um, I, I decided to go roof thatching with my uncle. So my uncle is a roof thatcher, which is a, uh, a very old, traditional craft that they don't really teach anymore. It's very, like, kind of there's no classes you can go and take and you can't study for it. You've got to actually go on the job and work on the job and you learn. And when the master thatcher thinks you're ready, you then go from being an apprentice to a master thatcher. And my school, I remember my school advised that I didn't do it.... but I went and did it anyway. Shouldn't have done, sorry. Uh, but I, I, I, so I went and did that, and then, um, I absolutely loved it. I, and it was, it wa- I was outside. I think what it was is I was outside. It was, it was tough. Like, I wasn't really, I was lifting a lot of straw and moving things and sweeping up, but I, but I absolutely loved it. It's, there's something about, like, when we finished a roof, we'd look at what we'd done and it's just, that feeling, I wanted to bottle that up and be like, "That's what I want for the rest of my life." So I decided that I wanted to be a roof thatcher for the rest of my life. I'm the sort of per- I'm very, kind of, I'm very bad at making my mind up on things as well. There's a lot going on. I'm very bad at making my mind up on stuff, so I was like, "What if it doesn't work out later on down the line? I need to have A levels, so if I, if this doesn't go to plan or, you know, after a while I don't like it, I can at least then try out university and go back to trying to work for s- s- something in the media or, or art or something." So, um, but I didn't. I just sort of, I, I, I always liked the idea of having safety nets underneath me. So if something, if something doesn't go to plan, it's all right, you've always got that safety net of... And that's kind of, like, in a way, what roof thatching became, because I started doing YouTube as a hobby off the back of the thatching, I did it in my spare time, and that started to take off and, and become a full-time career. But then I was, in a way, safe going into that because I was like, "If it all doesn't pan out," because this is going back to when YouTube wasn't really a career as well, so it was, it was so uncertain about where that was gonna go. But I always felt very, like, secure in the fact that I knew that if it didn't pan out, try it for a year, if it doesn't work, I can go back to a job that I genuinely really, really love. So,

Joe Sugg 7:57 yeah.

Steven Bartlett 7:58 The two, the two ideas that, that almost in sort of collision there was this idea that you are very self-confident in your abilities and that you've always needed a plan B.

Joe Sugg 8:08 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 8:08 I was trying to make them make sense-

Joe Sugg 8:09 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 8:09 ... as two kind of separate ideas. Because one of them sounded a bit like self-doubt, this idea that sometimes there's a struggle to make a definitive decision and that there's a need for a plan B. Are you someone that has self-doubt at the same time? Y- 'cause y- I think it's im- I think it's possible to understand your talents, but also have doubt in the future and how things will pan out.

Joe Sugg 8:31 Yeah. I'm the sort of person where I think of the best case scenario, so, like, I, I have those im- like, I've got a very vivid imagination, so, with, with everything that I go into, I always think of the best possible outcome, which then gives me that sort of self-confidence. But then I also have Mr. Self-Doubt on the other side, who finds the worst case scenario, and then they, they have a battle in my head of how I should think, and it, that, I think that's where the indecision comes from with a lot of stuff. I live with it. I'm glad I've kind of got it, because without, like, I would, I wouldn't want to always have the self-doubt there, and I also wouldn't ever w- always want to have the self-confidence there, because I think that would make me a completely different person, maybe a person that I don't like either.

Steven Bartlett 9:16 Mm-hmm.

Joe Sugg 9:17 So, I don't know. It's, there's, there's, um... Yeah. I have, I have both.

Steven Bartlett 9:23 Th- that's, that's the thing with, um, with the self-doubt, if it's just a little bit too high, and I, I learned this actually from a guest on this podcast called Nir Eyal, he, um, h- his, he wrote a book on why we get distracted and ultimately, like, why we pro- procrastinate on things, and he says procrastination is the result of us trying to avoid a task or thing that's, that we have psychological discomfort associated with.

Joe Sugg 9:43 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 9:43 So when you're like, you know you've got the essay to do, you'll end up doing the washing up-

Joe Sugg 9:46 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 9:46 ... because that's a task you're competent in, um, whereas with the essay, you know there's loads of research to do, you're not necessarily, you don't feel comfortable starting yet.

Joe Sugg 9:54 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 9:54 There's something missing. So there's mental psychological discomfort, so you just go do the dishes.

Joe Sugg 9:57 Yep.

Steven Bartlett 9:57 And I think self-doubt is one of the things that leads us to have that psychological discomfort, where we just kind of delay it and wait for that perfect time or-

Joe Sugg 10:04 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 10:04 ... go do the dishes.

Joe Sugg 10:05 I have that all the time. And it's, I, I, I always say, "It's because I'm creative. It's because I'm creative." It's like, I get scared. I don't know if scared is the right word, but I, yeah, I put it off. Like, if, if I know I've got something I want to do that's, that is creative and requires a lot of, sort of sitting around thinking beforehand and then putting pen to paper or, or, um, anything that's gonna involve the creative process, I delay it and I, I think it's a thing of, like, "What if I start doing it and instantly I don't like it?" And I'm like, "Ah, this is not how I imagined." Because you, you sort of, in your mind, you have this version of it's all just gonna come flowing out of the pen or you're gonna start filming, um, something and it's all just gonna go perfect to plan, and it, and it doesn't. And it very, very often does it all just completely flow. Um, and I think that, that kind of puts a block in. I'm always like, "If I'm gonna do it, I need to make sure everything's prepared beforehand."

Steven Bartlett 10:57 That is very interesting. A lot of the time as well we say to ourselves that we're, "The reason I'm not starting it or the reason I have that procrastination is because I'm a perfectionist."

Joe Sugg 11:05 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 11:06 I, I've, I really wa- you know, everyone loves that, 'cause it's a nice way of framing yourself as being, as having really, really, really high standards and being... Honestly, it's kind of like saying, "I'm, the reason I've not started it yet or the reason I struggle is because I'm amazing."

Joe Sugg 11:19 Yeah. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 11:19 It's almost like saying that, when really, a lot of the time, it's probably self-doubt and that psychological discomfort associated with you don't feel fully competent or like you could fully nail it.

Joe Sugg 11:29 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 11:29 And you're trying to avoid the mess which, which we all encounter as we do anything.

Joe Sugg 11:33 Yeah. I think it's li- it's kind of like that... I, I think it's from that part of my brain that's like, seeing the best possible outcome.

Steven Bartlett 11:40 Yeah.

Joe Sugg 11:40 So, like, let's say, for example, uh, I'm doing a, a painting. In my head, I'll have that thing of like, almost going ahead 'cause, 'cause in my imagination I see it finished and I'm like, "This is, it's gonna be amazing. It's gonna..." You know, I'm gonna post it online and people are gonna love it and things like that. But then I st- start and it doesn't quite go, I'm like, "Oh, actually this is..." In my mind I've gone through this process of, like, doing it over and over again and getting it to how I want it to go, and then I start doing it and it's not going how I imagined it. And that sort of scares me a bit, and that's why I think I-... put things off more from that kind of side.

Steven Bartlett 12:15 Unfinished paintings?

Joe Sugg 12:16 Yeah, a lot of them.

Steven Bartlett 12:17 (laughs)

Joe Sugg 12:17 Too many of them. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 12:18 What, what, what have you learned about... Is there anything that you've learned or any- anything that's helped you get past that initial, um, hesitancy of procrastination or... 'Cause y- you know, reading through your story and even speaking t- to you today, even before we started recording, I was like, "God, this guy's got so many ideas."

Joe Sugg 12:35 I was going to s- say, yeah. I... For... That is something that I've struggled with 'cause... Especially nowadays where, like, g- going into things like business, like starting businesses and stuff, v- I feel like v- from what I've seen, very rarely do you see people that are doing so many different things. And it is that thing of, like, I'm a plate spinner. Like, I love spinning plates of different things and trying to keep up with these spinning plates. And I s- take time to sort of sit back and look at these things and think, well, wha- when are you gonna sit on one thing and actually just do that thing and devote your... 'Cause you see, like, you look throughout history of, like, artists and people who have devoted their whole life to sculpting. Do you know what I mean? And, and, um, I sort of tell myself, I'm not gonna achieve anything sort of near that if I don't dedicate my whole life to one thing. But for me, I just find it so difficult 'cause I'm like, I've got a limited time and I wanna dip my toe into everything. And it's weird because I feel like... I use this analogy and I don't know if it's a great analogy or not, but with the YouTube sort of career that I've had over the last 10 years, that is something that I did sort of double down on and really focus all my energy on at one point. But then it became a point of branching it out and doing different things, um, just as a, as a form of, like, stability as well because we didn't know... We still... Like, we... Back in those days, we didn't know how long it was gonna last for, so we did sort of branch out into different things. And I think I just got a bit carried away with the branching out and just... I was like, there's so many things to sort of see and try out and do. I see, like, the... that YouTube thing of, like, catching a... l- like, going out to sea and catching a wave and caught that wave in, um, and it was inc- incredible. It was a, it was a record-breaking wave, it was a major wave kind of thing, and, you know, uh... And now I feel like I'm sort of... I'm back out there on my board again and I'm paddling around. I've caught a few little waves but they've not been, like, another, you know, ripper of a wave like, like the YouTube one was yet. But I'm, I'm sort of like... I know that there's more big waves out there, but it's just kind of like knowing which wave you start paddling. You know like how-

Steven Bartlett 14:45 Mm-hmm.

Joe Sugg 14:45 ... surfers sort of start to paddle out trying to catch them-

Steven Bartlett 14:47 Mm-hmm.

Joe Sugg 14:47 ... and you watch them. They sort of get it and then doesn't go and it's like, I feel like at the moment, I'm sort of paddling out and sort of waiting for that sort of next big wave, in a sense.

Steven Bartlett 14:58 Why do you need a next big wave?

Joe Sugg 15:01 Good point. I should just stay on the beach. I think that's actually what my therapist... I have a therapist I speak to and I used that analogy with her and she said, b- exact same thing, "Why do you need to catch the next big wave? Why not stay on the beach? You don't need to go out and constantly catch big waves." But-

Steven Bartlett 15:19 I was thinking this because you said earlier... I mean, the question I was gonna, um, ask before you talked about the wave analogy was kind of similar, which is, if you're happy spinning multiple plates and trying lots of things and sculpting for the joy of sculpting-

Joe Sugg 15:32 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 15:33 ... it seems like... And this is... I'm guilty of this in the, the biggest way, it seems like there's this other narrative which is saying, no, no, no, no, no, no. Forget what you love doing, focus because success is the most important thing.

Joe Sugg 15:44 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 15:44 And when I say success, I mean, like, accomplishment.

Joe Sugg 15:47 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 15:47 Because real success probably is actually being happy.

Joe Sugg 15:50 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 15:51 And you're happy. Like, but, but it's almost... Like, we... It's almost like we deny ourselves of happiness because there's not a gold medal there or-

Joe Sugg 15:57 Yep.

Steven Bartlett 15:57 ... there's not a gazillion followers there.

Joe Sugg 15:59 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 15:59 But you're enjoying sculpting-

Joe Sugg 16:00 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 16:00 ... for the sake of sculpturing.

Joe Sugg 16:01 It's, it's like, it's like a punishment for yourself. Like, I feel like I, um... It, in a way, I s- ... Yeah, it's kind of like a form of, like, "Joe, you know love doing this and this makes you genuinely happy, so why don't you just do it?" Do you know what I mean? And if, if you love it that much and you stick at it and do it, then good things may come from it, but it's not gonna happen straight away. And it's like, it's almost like I get into a think of like, I like to sort of... The things that I know I love doing, I put aside and I focus on the things that, uh, that maybe I don't love as much or are not as passionate about as much. But I'll sort of almost put that before the little things that make me really happy. It's bizarre.

Steven Bartlett 16:41 Why?

Joe Sugg 16:41 I've no idea. No idea. I've tried to... I've tried to, like, think about it a lot and it's, it's weird that it comes from a... I don't know where, where it comes from.

Steven Bartlett 16:50 Because... Are you saying because those things, you could be... or that you might not love them as much, you i- m- you might be able to successful in the eyes of the world in them, or...

Joe Sugg 16:58 I think I... It's 'cause I've got that thing in me that's looking for instant success and stuff, which is weird. And maybe that's because of, like, before on YouTube and stuff, there was a time where, you know, we were... I say we, like, mi- speaking for myself, but, like, uh, me and a lot of the people around at a similar time that... on that sort of wave that we were on, we all, um... Everything we sort of would go into almost became an instant success in a way. It was like-

Steven Bartlett 17:27 To- to gold, yeah.

Joe Sugg 17:28 Yeah. I think it... 'Cause we like... Back then, I felt it was, it was so much bigger. Any- anything you sort of went into, you, you know, it did end up sort of getting attention and doing really well and, and things. Whereas now, maybe not so much, and I think that's kind of-

Steven Bartlett 17:44 That's crazy. Uh,

Steven Bartlett 17:45 we signed some YouTubers back in that, those days, so maybe not... 'Cause you were, you were very, very early, but-

Joe Sugg 17:50 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 17:50 ... in 2013, '14, we signed a bunch of YouTubers.

Joe Sugg 17:53 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 17:54 And still to this day, none of them were as near, near the size of, of you and that sort of British cohort of, like, YouTube megastars.

Joe Sugg 18:01 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 18:01 But still to this day, I do... And they must have been 18, 19, 20 years old, I still think it ruined their lives.

Joe Sugg 18:07 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 18:08 ... because I watched an 18-year-old, 19-year-old kid who had started a YouTube channel, got to 200,000, 300,000 subscribers when there was no ... v- v- vid- that was the only shop in town for video.

Joe Sugg 18:17 Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 18:17 This was before Facebook video-

Joe Sugg 18:19 Yep.

Steven Bartlett 18:19 ... and Instagram and Snap and all and Twitter video.

Joe Sugg 18:21 Yep.

Steven Bartlett 18:21 So that was where, as brands, we were just p- pumping all the money into these YouTubers.

Joe Sugg 18:24 Yep.

Steven Bartlett 18:25 I watched those kids turn down 15 grand to show up to a fucking movie premiere-

Joe Sugg 18:29 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 18:29 ... or to just show face. When that-

Joe Sugg 18:32 Yep.

Steven Bartlett 18:32 (laughs) When that wave comes into shore and hits the beach and it's over-

Joe Sugg 18:35 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 18:35 ... I don't, those k- I don't, those kids are in a psychological trap almost-

Joe Sugg 18:40 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 18:40 ... with their own e- personal expectations of the world. And I, and I, and I really worry about that because success has often, is, can be a curse because it, 'cause of the way it messes with our own personal expectations of ourself and of the world.

Joe Sugg 18:52 Yep.

Steven Bartlett 18:52 And in s- in some respects, that sounds like what you're saying. Your expectations back then, everything you guys touched did turn to gold.

Joe Sugg 18:58 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 18:59 A- and now you're saying it's, it's a little bit more difficult.

Joe Sugg 19:01 Yeah. Bronze. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 19:02 Bronze. (laughs) Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Sugg 19:05 (laughs) Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 19:05 Do you j-

Joe Sugg 19:05 No, do you-

Steven Bartlett 19:05 Do you want, does any of that resonate with you?

Joe Sugg 19:06 Oh, 100%, yeah, and I think that's, in, that's a big part of why, um, myself and Caspar, who's also a YouTuber-

Steven Bartlett 19:12 Yep.

Joe Sugg 19:12 ... we, we started a management company because in the future, there's gonna be kids, I mean, we could already see it then, like, young kids that were shooting to fame overnight, but even, I think nowadays with other social medias, it happens even quicker.

Steven Bartlett 19:23 Mm-hmm.

Joe Sugg 19:23 Like, the, the, the rise but also the fall can happen-

Steven Bartlett 19:26 Yeah.

Joe Sugg 19:26 ... so quick, and I was like, for, for me and Caspar, we were like, we want to make a management company. Now, a big role of what we have in that is being, in a way, kind of like mentors when needed to, to, for any questions they have or anything that, any concerns they have about that kinda thing, we can sort of give ... it's, I kind of use it as, like, a, I guess, like, the, you know in, like, um, The Hunger Games-

Steven Bartlett 19:47 (laughs)

Joe Sugg 19:47 ... that guy who's, like, sat on the train who sort of takes you through it and be like, "Look, this is gonna happen." I guess, like, a v- a v- a very-

Steven Bartlett 19:53 Like a mentor.

Joe Sugg 19:54 A very different version. Yeah, like, yeah, kind of like mentor-

Steven Bartlett 19:56 Yeah.

Joe Sugg 19:56 ... kind of role.

Steven Bartlett 19:57 Yeah.

Joe Sugg 19:57 Um, and that, for me, is, like, one of the, like, the best things that I do at the moment is having that sort of one-on-one with our own clients and sort of, if they've got any sort of issues, being able to actually offer advice and see it make a change. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 20:12 I'm Joe at 19 (laughs) -

Joe Sugg 20:14 Yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 20:14 ... and you're Joe at 30.

Joe Sugg 20:16 Right.

Steven Bartlett 20:16 What would you say to me? I'm about to unbo- as you were, I- I'm about, I'm thinking about uploading that first video and-

Joe Sugg 20:22 Yep.

Steven Bartlett 20:22 ... what advice would you give me?

Joe Sugg 20:24 I would say, "If you want it to get to that level, you can do it if you put in the, sort of the consistency and you're, you're, you're making stuff that is gonna get seen and stuff, but just be prepared for ... there's other sides of it that aren't, aren't all bells and whistles and that kinda thing. There's o- there's gonna be obstacles. There's gonna be things that, that you're gonna need advice on, and we're gonna be here to, to help and hold your hand through that if you need it."

Steven Bartlett 20:50 What are the things that are going to run into?

Joe Sugg 20:52 Which ... press, negative press, um, you know, haters. You're gonna get tr- trolls. That's, the, the bigger your audience size, the, the more issues it brings in terms of the more eyes that are on you, the more people that will watch your stuff that might not like what you do, and then they've got a thing out against you, and there's, there's a lot.

Steven Bartlett 21:12 What's the mental cost?

Joe Sugg 21:14 I would say that if you're me, it's still worth it. It's still ... don't ever regret doing it. It's still worth it. Like, you, there, there, of course there's those negatives, but the positives that you've gained out of it, or you will gain out of it, um, in everything outweighs the negative. And don't get, don't get bogged down by the negatives 'cause there's more pos- y- you know there's more pos- there's gonna be more positives than negatives. The, the negatives don't matter as much as you think they're gonna matter at the time. At the time, when you experience these negatives and these things that, you know, don't go your way or ... that's gonna happen, but don't let it, don't dwell on it. Don't let it consume you because there's positives beyond that, that ... and you'll, you'll, you'll look back and you won't regret it.

Steven Bartlett 22:05 What is the worst thing that's gonna happen to me?

Joe Sugg 22:08 The worst thing that's gonna happen to you-

Steven Bartlett 22:09 Over the next 10 years, so I'm 19 years old. You know how it all plays out.

Joe Sugg 22:15 Yeah. Overthinking. Overthinking and worrying about what other people, how they perceive you.

Steven Bartlett 22:28 What cost is that gonna have?

Joe Sugg 22:30 Um, a few sleepless nights, uh, a lot of anxiety, self-doubt.

Steven Bartlett 22:40 I'm guessing at 19 years old, Joe didn't know what anxiety was.

Joe Sugg 22:42 No, no.

Steven Bartlett 22:44 What is it?

Joe Sugg 22:45 It's a feeling of claustrophobia, feeling a bit trapped. Um ...

Steven Bartlett 22:55 Do you remember, do you remember days through that period, I, I mean, you, you talked a little bit in the book about, I think, 2015 or so? Couple of years in, I mean, so you, you said earlier you started at 19, 20 years old.

Joe Sugg 23:05 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 23:05 By 22, am I correct to say that you had about six million subscribers?

Joe Sugg 23:09 Possibly, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 23:10 That's fucking nuts.

Joe Sugg 23:11 It's, it, yeah, it happened really quick. I was very fortunate that my s- uh, my sister, Zoe, sort of, um, and Alfie actually, um, her partner, they, they really encouraged me to do it. Before YouTube, we used to, um, buy blank cassette tapes and make our own radio shows or p- well, I guess pod- podcasts back in the day. Like, as, as, like, kids, we were always taking our parents' camcorder and recording shows, and Zoe was very much, like, the leader in that. She was very much sort of, uh, the director, let's say, um, and I was always the sort of, sort of, I just did what she told me to. Like, I was the little brother that would just go along with it and that kinda thing. And, um, so when YouTube came around, she started to get a bit of success from it, and she was like, "You should give this a go," because this is the kinda stuff that we were doing as kids, or have done. We're kind of like, it's not that far off from what we used to do. But, you know, there's an audience that can watch you from around the world, and, and, um, and, uh, so yeah, so I gave it a go, and it, and it, I think back then, the success of, like, the, some of the s- some of the stuff we filmed back then-... wouldn't... It'd be like a, a drop in the ocean now, in terms of, like, how big social media's got and, and YouTube and stuff. Our stuff wouldn't be watched nowadays. It was like we were very much, kind of, hit it at the right time. And, uh, yeah, so I started and it, and it just sort of snowballed, and it snowballed really quickly. I remember there was a time where, um, I was still thatching a, on a roof five days of the week and then, um, I had an email come through asking if I'd go to, fly out to Los Angeles to interview Simon Cowell. And, yeah, I flew out there and it was all first time ever experiencing a business class flight. I still had a, like, straw in my shoes from, like, being on the roof.

Steven Bartlett 24:58 (laughs)

Joe Sugg 24:58 And, like, hadn't showered, like, kind of, like, just grotty thatcher. Getting on this plane, like, a chauffeur-driven car pulled up to our house and took me off to the, um, Heathrow Airport and I went through the... There's like a little secret bit, um, where they put these barriers down. You have your own, like, private security kind of thing and you go through and, and I was like... It just blew my mind. And, and, uh, and I hadn't even got to Los Angeles yet. First time ever flying on my own, like, solo, um, and, uh, and that whole experience was just like... The whole thing just didn't feel real, just did not feel real. It just felt like I was sort of, like, living, like, a double life in a way, of like, I... Uh, like yesterday I was on a roof thatching and now I'm sat in Simon Cowell's fancy house, sort of,

Joe Sugg 25:46 talking to him about Skype. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 25:47 Those experiences, especially when they're really quick and they go from zero to 100, people, when they're... when they sit here with them, often talk to me about imposter syndrome.

Joe Sugg 25:56 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 25:57 Because you... As you said, you're kind of living a double life.

Joe Sugg 26:01 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 26:01 You're like, "What the fuck am I doing?"

Joe Sugg 26:02 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 26:02 "I've got a straw in my shoe, and Simon Cowell and..."

Joe Sugg 26:04 Definitely, yeah. Imposter syndrome, there's definitely a lot of that going on. Um...

Steven Bartlett 26:10 And that must result in overthinking and doubt and-

Joe Sugg 26:12 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 26:12 ... all those things we talked about.

Joe Sugg 26:13 Yeah. And that's another thing, actually, that I would say to younger Joe, is that you're gonna get this thing called imposter syndrome. Um, you'll learn about it later, but, yeah, it'll be there. Um, and I've... I, yeah, I've had that even, even now to this day, like, I, it's, uh, even, sort of, like, even now with this podcast, like, I've, I'm listening to this podcast all the time.

Steven Bartlett 26:34 Mm-hmm.

Joe Sugg 26:34 And, uh, even on the way here, I was a bit nervous because I was like, you get, like, these, you know, these incredible CEOs on and these people that are so good at talking, and I struggle to get a sentence together most of the time. And I'm like, I... Even me, I, I have to, like... There's people on there that have done such amazing things and I'm like, for m- even for me, it still gives me that little bit of imposter syndrome of, like, there should be other people. There's a lot more people that should be sat in this chair rather than me.

Steven Bartlett 27:01 What's the risk of that? Because, uh, you know, I imagine... A lot of people that... For me, the risk is, um, you end up, like, avoiding, like, opportunities in life and stuff because... I'm sure there must've been people that we've asked to come on this podcast before that, through imposter syndrome, said no. Like, they, they... Because we do get a lot of people come here and they'll say a similar thing. We've had... I mean, I can think of a few people who literally came here and was like, "I don't know why you've asked me to be here."

Joe Sugg 27:24 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 27:25 And that must impact performance. It must make the whole thing unpleasant. I mean, at least the lead-up, anyway.

Joe Sugg 27:30 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 27:30 Until, "I'm such a..." You know?

Joe Sugg 27:32 It does, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 27:32 "... important."

Joe Sugg 27:32 I, I think, like, a good example for me is, is doing Strictly or even, um, actually, probably even more so is, uh, Waitress in the West End. So I-

Steven Bartlett 27:42 Mm-hmm.

Joe Sugg 27:42 ... I did a stint on, on the West End in Waitress, and this was coming off the back of doing Strictly, so my confidence, actually, uh, it completely changed me in a sense that it gave me such a big boost of confidence, which I didn't, hadn't had for a long time. Um, and so riding on that confidence, I agreed to, uh, to do, uh, a audition for, uh, Ogie in Waitress in the West End, and, um, I remember, I kept asking, sort of, my, sort of, my team, being like, "Have they asked me because of, like, Strictly or, you know? Will they be honest and, like, if I'm not good enough, will they just tell... I don't want them to just, sort of, put me in it if I'm actually not good 'cause, or I'm not to standard that they'd take someone on." Do you know what I mean? If it's not me. And, uh, they were, they were sort of like, "I think you'll... You know, just go along, you'll be good," all this kind of stuff. And, um, I remember, even after doing the audition and they said they really loved it and things like that, I still... In my mind, I was still like, "But did you though? What... Like, are you sure? Like, are you sure?" And I... Especially, like, the, the, the backlash that I kind of got from that was, was quite... Like, I mean, it's, it's nothing that, sort of, worried me too much, but there was a lot of, like, people that were messaging me being like, "You, you don't deserve this. There's people that have trained their entire lives in musical theater and they're not gonna... They didn't get that... They won't ever get that opportunity 'cause of people like you coming in, taking the, those roles."

Steven Bartlett 29:05 Hmm.

Joe Sugg 29:05 And so I started to have, like, a massive... And that kind of, like, that imposter syndrome that I already had got amplified, and I was like, "Maybe I shouldn't do it," and just sort of... But then I wonder, I wonder if there's been any, any... I wonder if there's been any times where people have then turned around and said, "Actually, do you know what? I don't, I don't want this because of-"

Steven Bartlett 29:24 Oh, so many times.

Joe Sugg 29:24 "... what people on social media have said." Do you know what I mean?

Steven Bartlett 29:26 Mm-hmm.

Joe Sugg 29:26 Or given their opinion on. Um, so that was a real sort of... That was a, uh, definitely a moment that stands out to me of being like, "I probably shouldn't be, be here doing this."

Steven Bartlett 29:40 Mm-hmm. In your, in your journey with social media and, and YouTube, were, w- was there a moment where you go, "That was where I really started to see the symptoms of getting burnt out by doing this"? Was there a mo- a, a year or a time where you just thought, "Fuck, I don't wanna... I don't wanna open my emails. I don't wanna do... I don't wanna upload."

Joe Sugg 29:57 Yeah. There w- it was, I think, around 2016, '17, I think it might be. Um, I remember it clearly 'cause, uh, th- uh, it was just a time where there was just a lot going on. I think YouTube was, like, uh, massive. We were, you know... Uh, uh, uh, like, I was... I think I, at that time I was... I mean, I run-... at the time, I was... had three YouTube channels that I was trying to all keep up at the same time. And this was actually before I had any... I was doing it all solo as well, so I'd think of the ideas, I'd shoot them all, edit them, um, obviously distribute it. I guess, kind of, in a way, market it by promoting it and putting it out there and trying to get people to watch my stuff. But I also had a, uh, a book coming out, uh, which I was working on. Uh, we'd also, me and Caspar did a feature, um, with BBC Studios, like a, a sort of a, like a straight-to-DVD kind of, like, film of us sort of traveling around in a camper van. So there's, there's a lot of things going on and obviously lots of other different things in the background. And it got to a point where I was like, my life as a roof thatcher before all this was... there was no feeling like this, how I'm feeling now. It was just, I had my s- s- I had such a solid structure, like up at this time, go to work, until this time, go back, unload the straw, load up the van again, go and see my nan, give her the paper, go home, go to the gym, and then that was it. Then, socializing-

Steven Bartlett 31:22 Was that, was that happier life?

Joe Sugg 31:23 There's been a lot of times throughout my life where I've looked back and thought that was, like, I think, I think it is 'cause that, that structure, it does make you feel like it's... I w- I was living a more... yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 31:37 Hand on heart, do you think if you had never started YouTube you'd be happier overall, over the last 10 years? Hand on heart.

Joe Sugg 31:49 (laughs) I think I'm- I'm more happy the route I've gone down as well. I think... 'cause the thing is, I can't... I can never sort of... as much as, you know, I've- I've had my struggles online and stuff, th- actually, the online has also been such a big help for me. And especially, like, in terms of, like, YouTube and the way that they- I've worked with them and personally and, like, had support from them, has been incredible. So I'm very fortunate as a creator on YouTube that You- YouTube has actually given me a lot of support. And I've- I've had a good team around me that have given me their support.

Steven Bartlett 32:22 Mm-hmm.

Joe Sugg 32:23 Uh, and the friendships and the family that I've had around me, i- although I went through a time where I did struggle a lot and I- I- I had that burnout when I had that sort of anxiety and worry and self-doubt and stuff, I've h- had a really good set of people around me that have helped me sort of get past that. Even with the- the roof thatching, you know. I- I look back on it now because I'm... s- so, so far down a different path. But I... if I went back to thatching, I'm sure there were times where I'd be up on the roof when it's, like, sideways rain, wind, freezing cold, thinking like, "What am I doing up here?" Like-

Steven Bartlett 32:59 Mm-hmm.

Joe Sugg 32:59 So I think it's all sort of comparative to where you are at certain points in your

Joe Sugg 33:04 life.

Steven Bartlett 33:04 Did your love for YouTube shift, though? Because obviously, y- you start posting less frequently-

Joe Sugg 33:09 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 33:10 ... on your main channel-

Joe Sugg 33:11 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 33:12 ... um, to the point where... And, and it's funny because as someone that's kind of observed the whole YouTube journey over the years, there seems to have been this point which you've literally spoken about where multiple YouTubers appear to have kind of vanished a little bit.

Joe Sugg 33:24 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 33:25 And then they end up posting a video saying, uh, like, almost giving their reason why, saying they're gonna come back-

Joe Sugg 33:31 It's, yeah-

Steven Bartlett 33:32 ... post another one a year later saying they're gonna come back and they never come back.

Joe Sugg 33:35 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 33:35 What is going on?

Joe Sugg 33:36 I think... I mean, I- I have to say, I can't speak for everyone, but for myself personally, I th- I, I think it's partly because your- my audience have all grown up, or the audience that I had back then, they've all got older. They've all... they're all in their sort of, I presume, a lot of the ones that started watching me when they were 14, 15. They're all now in their 20s. They've got their own stuff going on and the stuff that I knew how to make back then is not what they want to consume now as content. It's what I sort of-

Steven Bartlett 34:06 (laughs)

Joe Sugg 34:06 ... gauge from it.

Steven Bartlett 34:07 My... I have like a... I have, I have a guess as well, which is, I think, very much in line with what you're saying. I think that the algorithm might have changed a little bit.

Joe Sugg 34:15 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 34:16 And I think that... I think a few things happen when that happens. So I think as a creator, you get psychologically demotivated-

Joe Sugg 34:22 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 34:22 ... when you're doing the same work and you're not getting... you're getting a... basically, you're getting a vote from your audience to say, "Which sounds like we don't like it anymore."

Joe Sugg 34:31 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 34:31 And then it seemed like that happened all at the same time with that initial sort of YouTube cohort.

Joe Sugg 34:35 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 34:36 And so a lot of them, because they saw declining numbers in whatever they were making, decided to try other formats and other things and go into other places. I remember back in the day, like, YouTube seemed to be much shorter form videos.

Joe Sugg 34:47 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 34:48 And now you have a lot of long-form stuff, a lot of 55-minute, hour-

Joe Sugg 34:51 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 34:51 ... Joe Rogan, three-hour videos on there.

Joe Sugg 34:53 Yes. There's always, like, rumors that go around being like, "Oh, this. Have you heard the latest? This is what now-"

Steven Bartlett 34:57 Yeah.

Joe Sugg 34:57 "... you know, this is what the algorithm wants and stuff." And I- I agree with that to a degree, but I also think you- you've got the people that take it to the extreme sometimes and like, you know, "The reason why I'm not doing this is 'cause of this." And I- I never want to solely blame it. That's- I think that's why I don't always blame it on an algorithm. This might go back to me being the sort of self-doubting, kind of imposter syndrome type vibe again but of thinking like, it's not just 'cause of this mechanical thing that goes on in the background. It's also because I need to switch things up and change my, you know, who I am online or what I'm doing online. Uh, I need to move... I need to shift what I'm doing with the times. And I think that's harder than I- than I thought when I was sort of like, "I'm gonna change my th- stuff now." And it's... I think it's more difficult than I thought.

Steven Bartlett 35:49 Was there a point where you- you saw numbers decline and you thought... where you started to think, "Wait a minute, this- this is not how it used to be"?

Joe Sugg 35:56 Yeah. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 35:57 When was that?

Joe Sugg 35:58 It was right before I said yes to doing Strictly. I thought, you know, it'll be fine. They'll get used to it and try with different content and things. And I started to post different stuff and it just wasn't doing- performing as well as it used to. And I'd always kind of, like, prepared myself for it. Like, my dad actually gave me a good piece of advice, uh, looking back on it, of being like-... this, what you're doing now is great. But, you know, in the future, it's only gonna get more and more people trying to do what you do. And there's gonna be people, there's always, there's always people out there that have new talents and stuff and it's gonna, th- it's gonna change over time. And there's gonna be people that come into this that have got, you know, I'm not saying that, uh, uh, y- y- yeah, there's gonna be people that come into it that have got super talent and stuff that just completely dominate and things. And it, so, you, you, unless you've got, really got something about you, you're gonna struggle to keep up because it's just gonna get bigger and bigger. And I kind of like, I look back now, I'm like, "Actually, a lot of what he said makes sense." You know, there is, you know, it's, it's, that's the sort of way it's gone.

Steven Bartlett 37:05 How'd you define yourself now? Who are you now? Like, as a, from a self-definition point. Not that that's something I like to do to myself-

Joe Sugg 37:11 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 37:11 I don't like to self-define. But if you, if you someone, if someone asks you to write a bio, what do you say?

Joe Sugg 37:17 It's one of the hardest things for me to answer. It genuinely is. If, if, ever, if I'm ever asked to sort of sum myself up, what I do, I just, I s- I think it's like my Instagram bio is like, "I, I am creative," or something like that, because I just, I don't, I find it so hard to sort of pigeonhole myself as, "This is what I do and this is what I am." Um, so I'd say, like, (sighs) it's, it's difficult. I'd just, like, say I'm, I'm just a creative person. (paper rustling)

Steven Bartlett 37:44 I am so excited to announce our new sponsor for this podcast, and that is BlueJeans by Verizon. For any of you that aren't already familiar with BlueJeans, they are a video conferencing and collaboration tool who offer an immersive communication experience that drives pretty unparalleled employee and customer engagement experiences. Me and all of my teams across all of my portfolio companies switched over to BlueJeans a couple of months ago and we have not looked back. The best thing for us has been the totally frictionless experience; no glitching, no sound issues, no delays or any of those things that usually make virtual meetings really, really frustrating. We use BlueJeans anywhere on any device at any time and it's perfect for my small businesses that just have 10 or 20 people, to some of my bigger businesses that have hundreds of people. I'm a big fan, as you can probably tell, so I've been quite excited for, for some time to announce this partnership. And in the coming weeks, I'll explain the features and really why it's perfect for you if you haven't considered using or switching over to BlueJeans yet. But if you can't wait, head over to bluejeans.com to learn more. Honestly, it's been one of the real, sort of game-changers in my business.

Steven Bartlett 38:47 (paper rustling) You wrote a book,

Steven Bartlett 38:49 Grow-

Joe Sugg 38:50 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 38:51 ... about being outside and in nature. It seems like a, a fairly unobvious topic for someone like yourself to write about. So it was very compelling.

Joe Sugg 39:01 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 39:02 Why, why did you decide to write about this, about the importance of going outside?

Joe Sugg 39:06 During the lockdown, we were all sort of looking for things to keep us busy and, and I, like we've mentioned before, I love hobbies, I'm always looking for things to do. And I, I had, like, a, a balcony that ran off from my living area and I got into gardening in that small little balcony of the things that I could do at the time and the things that I had lying around, I got really into it and I was, like, sort of, like, caring for a plant and just trying to make a plant grow or, or putting time and effort into something else. Um, and, and sort of not being in the sort of the whirlwind that was going on online, on our phones and stuff at that time, disconnecting myself from that and sort of reconnecting myself with something as simple as, as nature made me feel so good, it took away all kind of, like, anxieties, um, I just felt very calm and very, like, it took me back to my childhood in a sense of, like, how I grew up. I was very lucky to grow up in a, in a little, uh, cottage-type place. Um, so getting all that thought, it's, it's, it's part memoir, like, I talk a lot about, like, growing up in the countryside and, like, and sort of things actually living in London and, and all that kind of stuff, but also a part practical guide of hopefully giving some tips for other people in terms of like how they can find their own balance that suits them in terms of the real world and social media world.

Steven Bartlett 40:31 It's quite a personal pivot, isn't it, going from being a YouTuber who's uploading across three YouTube channels and is glued to a screen to standing here holding these pots (laughs) -

Joe Sugg 40:41 Yeah. Oh, yeah. No, it's-

Steven Bartlett 40:42 ... with these plants in them (laughs) .

Joe Sugg 40:43 Yeah. It's f- it is very different. I think, but that's, that's kind of, like, how I've been, I like to separate out tho- like, those two things. And what I've realized is separating those two things out is really beneficial for me. Um, but it's, but it's in no way sort of saying that social media is bad and this kind of thing, you shouldn't be on social media, 'cause like, it's a tool that we all use and we kind of, like, need to use, like, in terms of, like, we've got a personal computer in our hands, it's, it's kind of like an extension of our arm. We use it for so many things. So it's not saying, like, "Don't use your phone, your phone is evil," it's more kind of, like, finding a balance that's right for you that is gonna help you feel better about yourself mentally.

Steven Bartlett 41:24 On that point of thinking, um, mental health has become a, an increasing conversation over the last, uh, 10 years. Social media's played... it's kind of sat in the middle of that debate. Um, being someone that started a big social media business, I talk about this a lot, um, and obviously, you know, people, when we talk about social media and mental health, they'll say, "Well, you made all your money from it, so..." And I, and my rebuttal is always the same, which is, uh, you know, if I, if I've spent 10 years within it and I knew there was something wrong and I didn't tell you (laughs) -

Joe Sugg 41:50 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 41:50 ... that would make me even more of an arsehole, right?

Joe Sugg 41:52 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 41:52 Just because it had made me money. So having, having been as, like, very deep in social media over the last 10 years, I think we're probably more qualified than most to talk about the impacts it has on us, um, the mind, for, For better and for worse. When you were going through your hard times with social media, when you were having those real anxious m- moments where, um, you've written a few things about how there was about a two-year period with, when, when, when you'd really got going, where you just had this overwhelming sensation that felt like it was impossible to escape. Were, were you telling anybody about it? Were you talking to people? Were you speaking to Zoe, your family and saying, "I'm getting anxiety right now"?

Joe Sugg 42:25 Yeah. More so my sister, 'cause my sister has, um, suffered with it a lot throughout her career, um, so-... I, I, I found it ve- I was very lucky that I could speak to her about it and, um, and obviously got a therapist as well, um, that was recommended to me, um, through my sister.

Steven Bartlett 42:42 Do you remember that first time you spoke to her about it?

Joe Sugg 42:44 She, uh, she was very good about it, in fact, because she's been through a lot of that stuff. She sort of, um, straightaway made me feel better in knowing that... at least it was sort of, sort of acknowledging what it is and then bringing some sort of understanding to it. Um, but it de- it definitely, definitely helped having someone so close to me, like my sister, being able to sort of help with that.

Steven Bartlett 43:07 And you spoke to a therapist about this?

Joe Sugg 43:08 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 43:09 Going to see a therapist has a lot of stigma surrounding it. So, especially men-

Joe Sugg 43:14 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 43:14 ... are often very reluctant to do that because I think, especially once upon a time, going and seeing a therapist meant that I was crazy.

Joe Sugg 43:21 Oh, yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 43:22 So, your journey to, to actually getting into the, into therapy, can you talk to me about that process and what pushed you ultimately to take that step?

Joe Sugg 43:32 I think for me it was... I was... I never saw it as a, sort of... I- I don't know whether it's because of my sister, once again, like, through everything sort of, in a, in a way, sort of paving the way through that of, like, being, like, she was, um, seeing a therapist, so I already felt like, "Well, if my sister, my big sister can do it, then, then I can." Do you know what I mean? She, you know, if she can do it, I can, I could do it. So, I was quite lucky in a sense that it was actually a very easy process for me.

Steven Bartlett 44:07 What has therapy done for you, practically? Is there anything where you go, "That's, it really helped me with that particular challenge that I had"?

Joe Sugg 44:14 It's made me realize that I am a, uh, I've got a thing about people pleasing. I'm a people pleaser. So, I, I often feel like I can't be my unapologetic self in a situation without risking causing offense to someone. I'm, like, terrified of upsetting someone or saying the wrong thing. I'm learning through therapy that, how to sort of manage that and acknowledge it, first and foremost, and then to sort of... and we're working on that at the moment, of trying to sort of work on, like, why I have this thing of being worried so much about what other people think about what I do.

Steven Bartlett 44:59 It's a tough business to be in if you, if you, if you have that as a kind of predisposition. Has your therapist been able to offer you any advice about overthinking at all?

Joe Sugg 45:09 Yes. Uh, more so in, like, the sort of anxiety s- side of things. There's three, there's, there was, I think two or three points that she suggested and it's, like, de-, decatastrophizing the catastrophe. Um, using time to separate. So like, if I'm, if I'm feeling anxious, I've got to sort of... The way you think about time helps. For example, I was at, um, Chelsea Flower Show recently with my mum, and, um, I was ha- I was engaged in conversation with someone else and I was... but my mind was thinking, like, there's so much going on around me and I was li- I started to feel anxious. I just needed to get out of there. And it started to make me feel sick that I was like, I couldn't leave, and I, and I had, um... I remember I had a glass of champagne in my hand and I was like, "I don't know what to do," 'cause I can't... I was starting to think of all these different scenarios of being like, "I can't just be sick here 'cause I'm in, like, someone's garden. I can't just like, I, I can't just run away and leave mid-conversation because I'm so worried about going to them, sorry, I, I, I can't listen to what you're saying right now because my mind is panicking. I need to go." I was so worried about how they would think of me. So it's like, all that going on, but if you... What I've learned is that if you take that and think, "This conversation is max gonna last five minutes," that helps and it's like, know that after those five minutes, you can walk over there and you can be on your own and do this kind of stuff and it's gonna help. So it's like, kind of like, if you're going into something that you think, "Oh, it's gonna be a five-hour thing," or like an exa- a two-hour exam, you break it down into, like, chunks. So it's like I've got, okay, this two-hour exam is, uh, four 30-minute chunks.

Steven Bartlett 46:45 Mm-hmm.

Joe Sugg 46:45 And that, that starts to make me feel less anxious about things, and then also sort of thinking ahead of that whole thing. So if you've got an exam, thinking, "Well, after this, I'm gonna go and do this, this, and this, and this." And when you're thinking about things further in the future, it actually starts to make, make me feel more

Joe Sugg 47:03 calm.

Steven Bartlett 47:03 Dianne. H- You met her on Strictly?

Joe Sugg 47:07 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 47:08 Strictly gave you a lot, didn't it? (laughs)

Joe Sugg 47:10 Yeah, it did. Yeah, yeah. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 47:12 What was really interesting is that was your first girlfriend.

Joe Sugg 47:15 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 47:16 That's, that's-

Joe Sugg 47:17 First, yeah, first-

Steven Bartlett 47:18 First real girlfriend.

Joe Sugg 47:18 First real proper girlfriend, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 47:20 At, at what age? 26?

Joe Sugg 47:22 27? 26?

Steven Bartlett 47:23 Yeah.

Joe Sugg 47:23 Yeah. God.

Steven Bartlett 47:24 I wonder if, had you met her outside of Strictly, if you would be together?

Joe Sugg 47:29 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 47:30 Because it seems like you would have done a pretty good job of overthinking your way... (laughs)

Joe Sugg 47:34 Is, we have the same conversation, we're like, how lucky it was, in a way, that we were even partnered together. 'Cause when you're partners, if you're n- if we weren't even partners on the show, on the same show, we still say we may not have got together. Because when you're actually with your partners, you don't see each other throughout the week. So, we're, we're like, this, we, we sort of see it as like the stars sort of realigned there and we, and... But it wasn't, um... It was, it was an odd sort of, uh, situation, I guess. It's not, it's not how I thought it would happen. I, I used to be quite, like, nervous about sort of getting a girlfriend publicly because I would always think, "What..." Because I had, at the time, I had this sort of, uh, large female, young female demographic that were, that were really into sort of what I did and things like that, and I was kind of like, I've seen through, like, friends that have got girlfriends, you know, and when they introduce their girlfriends to their audience, it's, it's a bit kind of like a... I always thought it would be a very private thing. In my head, the whole time, I was like, "It'll be very private," and it's, it's actually ended up being the complete opposite. It's like you can now watch the moment we met, which is kind of unusual. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 48:45 It seems, uh, from just speaking to you today and getting to know you a bit, it does seem like that was the perfect way for you to get past... 'cause you were forced together.

Joe Sugg 48:51 Yeah. Yeah, and it, yeah-

Steven Bartlett 48:52 And you, and it's, you know what I mean? In the, in the context of the show, you were forced to spend time with each other. You weren't there to, to fall in love, but-

Joe Sugg 48:58 No.

Steven Bartlett 48:58 ... they put you together to do this very quite intimate thing, very deep journey over many, many months.

Joe Sugg 49:03 Yep.

Steven Bartlett 49:03 And it feels like from a, from just atr- understanding you a little bit, that was probably the best way for you to get past a lot of that, sort of, talking yourself out of it.

Joe Sugg 49:11 100%. And do you know what? You, you, you see the... I feel like on that, in that environment anyway, especially for me, is like we saw, I feel like we saw the best and the worst in each other over that, sort of, 16-week period.

Steven Bartlett 49:22 Mm-hmm.

Joe Sugg 49:23 There have been times where we're going to training and, like, things weren't going to plan. We thought about going home and we'd, you know, stress. Uh, the, the further you go in that competition, the higher the pressure is and the stress gets, and things like that. So we, we saw the best and the worst of each other within those 16, excuse me, within those 16 weeks. And, um, and I was, and afterwards, I was kind of like, when we even sort of like had time to really kind of, sort of address things, like post, um, and be like, "I actually kind of want to spend more time with you," it, 'cause I felt like I kind of, I've seen the best and the worst and I can, you know, I'm happy with that. And it, and it's vice versa. And so, um, so yeah, that's how it, yeah, sort of, how it, sort of, happened.

Steven Bartlett 50:05 So the show ends.

Joe Sugg 50:06 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 50:06 You get to the final, you do very well. And then-

Joe Sugg 50:08 It's good fun.

Steven Bartlett 50:08 ... you did the tour.

Joe Sugg 50:09 Yes. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 50:10 Which everyone, a lot of people do.

Joe Sugg 50:11 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 50:11 And they love that process as well. When did you decide that your dance partner was not just a dance partner and was a girlfriend?

Joe Sugg 50:19 It was, it was actually, it was before the tour.

Steven Bartlett 50:22 Before the tour? Okay.

Joe Sugg 50:23 It was before the tour, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 50:24 So after Strictly, but before the tour.

Joe Sugg 50:24 Yeah. It was after the show finished, um, and, like, a few days after. We had time to sort of like... we, obviously, missed each other 'cause we hadn't, didn't see each other. So after, we were like, sort of like, "I do miss, like, miss spending time with you," and things like that. And so then we, uh, obviously we had a conversation, we had a, sort of decided, um, to see each other more often and things like that, and we actually then went, uh, went away to a place in the New Forest.

Steven Bartlett 50:50 Wait a minute. That was very quick.

Joe Sugg 50:52 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 50:52 You had a conversation on WhatsApp or in person?

Joe Sugg 50:54 No, no, like in person. Yeah. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 50:55 Okay, so you met up a few times in person. (laughs)

Joe Sugg 50:56 Yeah, yeah. And then-

Steven Bartlett 50:57 You didn't go straight to the forest.

Joe Sugg 50:57 And then, uh, we went, yeah, we went, uh, we went to the New Forest, like a little trip.

Steven Bartlett 51:03 Right.

Joe Sugg 51:03 Um, and I remember we were getting, like, followed 'cause there was like, there was a lot of like, um, sort of, there was a lot of, like, attention on us at the time-

Steven Bartlett 51:13 Paparazzi.

Joe Sugg 51:14 ... I, I think. And, um, and so yeah, we were getting, we were getting followed by, uh, a guy. Like, I'm, I'm very, like, sort of aware of, like, what's going on around me and stuff. I think it's, I think it's just from the career that I've had over the last 10 years. I don't know. But I'm like, I was like, "That guy is par-" I could see from my flat. I was like, "That guy who's parked there, he's a-"

Steven Bartlett 51:32 Paparazzi.

Joe Sugg 51:32 ... paparazzi, yeah. And, um, it's, this is gonna sound really, like, really wanky, but I'd, I'd, I, I, I was lent an Aston Martin (laughs) that, that morning.

Steven Bartlett 51:42 Wow, you did.

Joe Sugg 51:42 So I went down and I was like, "This is the best. I should do things like this more often. I get, um, lent cars like this." And I was like... and so I went down and, um, parked it, and he must have seen me park so he knew what car to follow. And later on that day, I was driving along and I looked in the rear view mirror and I was like, "I think we're being followed." And then, um, and I recognized the, like, the, the license plate. It was something to do with a car. And, um, and it put me on so much edge. I was like driving along thinking like, "I actually can't concentrate on driving 'cause-"

Steven Bartlett 52:11 Yeah.

Joe Sugg 52:12 "... I know this person is just trying to follow us." Um, so I (laughs) , I, I, um, I, yeah, I sort of turned off from where I was trying to go to 'cause I was like, "I don't want him to actually turn up to where we're going." So I was like trying to, like-

Steven Bartlett 52:26 Shake him off.

Joe Sugg 52:26 ... shake him off a little bit. So I was like, "Right, Diane," you know how to work Bluetooth? She's like, "Yeah." "Put on the James Bond theme song." (laughs) And we had that moment of just, like, trying to sort of avoid, um, this, this guy who was following us. And we did manage to do it, obviously very safely.

Steven Bartlett 52:45 Did the pictures come out in the paper?

Joe Sugg 52:46 No. No. Nothing, luckily, 'cause we were move, on the move. Um, but, but yeah, I, I remember that very clearly of that, kind of like a moment of being like, "This is not what I'm used to at all. Don't, don't know if I like this." But, but then yeah, that's where we sort of... Yeah. That's where that happened.

Steven Bartlett 53:04 You're a couple years into the relationship now.

Joe Sugg 53:06 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 53:06 You live together, right?

Joe Sugg 53:07 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 53:07 Yeah? How's it going?

Joe Sugg 53:09 Yeah, it's going good. Yeah. Going really well. It's, it's, it's really nice 'cause we are both very, like, she's also one of the professional dancers, so she's still very much involved in the show, and, and when the show's not on, she's involved in the tours and things like that. So a lot of our time is separate. And we had one year, obviously 2019 was a year where we were like together and, but we had our own stuff that we were working on. It was a very busy year for me and also a very busy year for her with like tours, and, and back then even like, I think they do like cruise, like had, did like cruise ships and stuff as well. So like, loads of different tours and stuff. So we were away a lot of the, a lot of the time. But then when we come together, it's so nice because we've got so much to... there's, there's a, they say like distance makes the heart grow fonder and all that-

Steven Bartlett 53:54 Mm-hmm.

Joe Sugg 53:54 ... kind of stuff. And I, I genuinely kind of, I do believe in that, I think, especially in this sort of situation. Like, although we are away from each other a fair bit 'cause of our work commitments and stuff, it, it works really, really well. And like when we do, when we are together, it's nice just to spend quality time together. Um, but yeah.

Joe Sugg 54:15 No. I'm absolutely loving it.

Steven Bartlett 54:16 We have a, a closing tradition on this podcast where the previous guest asks a question for the next guest-

Joe Sugg 54:20 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 54:20 ... not knowing who they're asking it for. Do you remember a moment where you realized that you loved your job? When was it and why? And was there a moment when you realized you hated your job? When was it and why?

Joe Sugg 54:38 Ooh. Good question. Um, the moment that I remember that I loved my job...... was there's, there's a lot of little moments that stick out, but I think it... This was going back to, like, the old YouTube gang, so like me, my sister, um, Alfie, Marcus, Butler, Jim, Tanya, a lot of that kind of... The, the, the, the Brick Crew we were called back in the day. Um, we got invited to Harry Potter World-

Steven Bartlett 55:09 Mm-hmm.

Joe Sugg 55:10 Um, and, um, I'm, I've... I'll admit, I'm not a biggest Harry Potter fan, but just being around, like a... Having, like, a day out with, with that group, that first sort of... 'Cause it was kind of like our first sort of big group out somewhere, and just being around these people. And we were all going through the same situation, which I really appreciate the fact that, uh, there's people within this group that I could chat to and speak to about what was going on. And it was such a new and exciting time, and we were all kind of on that journey up. Um, and I just remember, that's... Or, that memory's always stuck in my head, and there's, weirdly, there's a, there's a vlog. I've vlogged... We all vlogged it, so it's like it's actually been documented so we can go back and watch it in the future and stuff. But, um, that s- really sticks out.

Steven Bartlett 55:53 So what about the second part of that question?

Joe Sugg 55:56 The... So, a moment where, sorry, a moment where I hated my job?

Steven Bartlett 55:59 Yeah.

Joe Sugg 56:00 It... I guess it was the time where I had that burnout feeling and I was... I had so much going on and I just thought, "Do you know what? I c- I actually don't really know if I wanna do this anymore." And I, I remember telling my manager at the time, um, Alex, uh, that I was like, "I, look, just don't know if I wanna do this. There's too much going on. I don't... I, I actually can't really handle it." I'm, you know, and I'm thinking about my old job and how much sort of simpler that was and thinking like, "Ugh," it's like... But I had all these things going through my head of like that, a thing of like, "Don't be ungrateful, but also, I am struggling with it." Um, and I guess in that moment would feel like the time I hated it. But it didn't last very long, because my manager at the time, Alex, she'd sent me a, like a care package. She, like, went out and above and beyond and sent me this care package of like a, a book and, um, weirdly it was a Harry Potter book, which, as we know, not, not the biggest fan.

Steven Bartlett 56:55 (laughs)

Joe Sugg 56:55 But yeah, at the time, it was exactly, like I said, "It's exactly what I needed." Um, so but right before she saved the day, it was, um, yeah-

Steven Bartlett 57:06 Tough.

Joe Sugg 57:06 ... probably about that, that time, I think.

Steven Bartlett 57:08 Um, Joe, thank you so much. Thank you for your time. Thank you for writing a really, uh, important book.

Joe Sugg 57:12 Thank you.

Steven Bartlett 57:12 I think these kind of messages in a digital, over-stimulated world we're living in, especially our generation and the generation that are coming, are very, very important. And they're very simplifying, which I love, 'cause it's very easy to write very complex things that are, um, that try and make things more complicated than they are in order to make yourself-

Joe Sugg 57:29 Yep.

Steven Bartlett 57:29 ... sound super smart or to try and trick people to buy something or to think you're a scientist. But I love stuff that is simplifying. It makes it much more-

Joe Sugg 57:35 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 57:35 ... accessible. Um, and I think that is, that is why I love this particular book so much. But I also really appreciate your honesty, 'cause you're talking about topics and themes that on one hand very few people will ever get to experience-

Joe Sugg 57:46 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 57:46 ... with the crazy career that you had in-

Joe Sugg 57:48 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 57:48 ... in YouTube and that you're having in the media and all of these things. But, but also topics that are not always easy to talk about, which is the-

Joe Sugg 57:55 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 57:55 ... the difficult harder times. And-

Joe Sugg 57:57 Yep.

Steven Bartlett 57:57 ... and that balance is exactly why we do what we do here. So thank you for your time. It's been an honor.

Joe Sugg 58:00 Thanks very much. No, pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Steven Bartlett 58:02 I can't see w- wait to see what happens next, so...

Joe Sugg 58:04 (laughs) Same.

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