How To Chase Your Dreams Without Fear Holding You Back with Fran Millar | E67

1. 0:00 – 1:24

   Intro

   1. FMFran Millar0:00

      Why am I doing this? I'm doing this because society wants me to do this.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett0:03

      Mm-hmm.

   3. FMFran Millar0:03

      I'm doing this because my mates want me to do this. This is bullshit. (boom) That's not gonna happen, and I think it- you show that little boy inside that was just, like, ruined by it.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett0:12

      Mm-hmm.

   5. FMFran Millar0:13

      Sorry, it's all quite emotional. (instrumental music plays)

   6. SBSteven Bartlett0:22

      What an amazing story. What a cruel, amazing, twisting career. My next guest has one of the most fascinating journeys through business and through life that I think I've ever heard. She spent her life surrounded by a couple of people that, that I actually consider to be inspirations of mine. One of them is Sir David Brailsford, who's been a sort of elite performance coach and cycling coach for Team Sky, which went on to win more than they were ever expected to win. He's the, I guess, the author of this, this marginal gains thinking, which ch- changed how business and sports teams function. The other person she was surrounded by throughout her career is Steve Peters, who a lot of you will know from the book he authored, The Chimp Paradox, which redefines, from a psychiatrist's point of view, how our mind works and where our behavior comes from. And the other male figure in her life that's important for the story you're about to hear is her brother, David Millar, who was this incredibly sort of highly regarded cyclist, British cyclist, who had this cruel twist to his career where he got involved in the doping scandal,

2. 1:24 – 15:16

   Your Brother

   1. SBSteven Bartlett1:24

      which really left a stain on British cycling as we know it. And David Millar recounts the story of him being sat in this, this cafe shop with David Brailsford and being tapped on the shoulder by three men wearing suits, who would then raid his house and find syringes. And that was one of the key moments in British sporting history, where I think in many respects things have never been the same, and we always view our elite performers with an element of skepticism. But this is Fran's story, and Fran's story is one of tenacity. It's one of success. It's one of jumping off cliffs and figuring out how to build your skydiver as you fall. Her story is inspiring. It's peculiar. She went from starting her own business to spending, I think, 12 years at Team Sky, worked her way up to the very, very top. And when it became Team INEOS, she became the CEO, leading a predominantly male-dominated industry. And then, out the blue, in the middle of a pandemic, when retail was on its arse, she decided that she was gonna change lanes and become the CEO of Belstaff, which is a brand that has been struggling, that's been making losses, and then was then kicked up the rear end by COVID. She's brave. She is unusual. She's inspiring. She's tough. She describes herself, or at least she respects the idea of being a difficult woman, something we'll talk about. So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody is listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. (instrumental music plays) Fran, I- I've done a lot of stalking of your, your history, your past, your professional career. And, uh, I was stalking your Twitter feed the other day, and I saw a quote that you'd, um, you'd written, I guess, in, in honor of your brother, um, David, who is a, a world-renowned professional, incredibly accomplished cyclist. And the quote said, "Following a boy who loved it so much he got absorbed into the fabric of it, and has spent a lifetime carrying the weight of the cruelty, wonder, brilliance, and tragedy it would bring him," um, is ultimately what got you into the, the world of cycling.

   2. FMFran Millar3:32

      Mm.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett3:33

      I was slightly taken aback by some of those words, "cruelty, wonder, brilliance, and tragedy." Can you explain why you chose those words?

   4. FMFran Millar3:43

      Ooh, that's a big opening question (laughs) .

   5. SBSteven Bartlett3:45

      (laughs) .

   6. FMFran Millar3:45

      Um, yeah, I mean, listen, my brother was, was and is a very talented guy. He was- we were- so when we were about 10 and 12, my parents got divorced. My dad went to live in Hong Kong, and my mum stayed in the UK. I stayed with my mum. My brother went with my dad. And so when we were, like, kids, we'd cross in the air. So he'd come home from Hong Kong, I'd go out to- he'd come home, I'd go out. And he had nothing to do when he was here 'cause we'd moved, so he had no- he had no friends around, so my mum entered him into a cycling club. Um, and he'd go, and he'd- yeah, do the time trials. He was super good at it. By the- like literally from like 15 to 19, he'd gone from never really riding a road bike to being s- like courted by nine of the biggest teams in the sport. And he got signed very young, uh, by a big French team, and they kind of made all these promises to my mum about it. And he was obviously- you know, he was a kid. He was desperate to win the Tour de France and to go and fulfill his dreams, and he totally fell in love with the sport, and he was completely enamored by it. And in the space of five years, he'd gone from this e- excited, talented, you know, brilliant kid to this damaged, incredibly sad, deep, deeply, deeply shamed young man. And it was like, how has a sport done that? Like how has a- it's a- it's a- it's a game, right?

   7. SBSteven Bartlett5:02

      Mm-hmm.

   8. FMFran Millar5:02

      Like sport's a game. It's entertainment. How has, uh, something that is fundamentally to entertain people r- basically ruined him, like taken him down to the core of who he was? And it just- And then he built himself back up, and he's, you know, he's gone on to do incredible things. But it was just a- the sport has had this unbelievable impact on my life, on my brother's life, on my life, on everything, the ch- the decisions I've made and everything else. So I guess that's why I chose those words.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett5:30

      Give me some detail on- y- you talked about the sport bringing him down to his core and, and ruining him.

   10. FMFran Millar5:35

       Yeah.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett5:35

       What caused that?

   12. FMFran Millar5:37

       Ah. So he went into the sport in 1998, he time- turned pro, which for any of your listeners who know anything about cycling was the Festina year. So it was the year of the big Festina scandal, where they raided all the hotel rooms, and the guys all kind of protested and sat down on the road. And only a few of the sort of teams were able to finish 'cause so many guys got pulled out of the race. And it was the- it was the dawning of the EPO era, so it was the era where they discovered effectively, uh, you know, athletes and coaches had discovered that you could use EPO in the same way that you used to be able to use altitude training to perfo- to increase physical performance. Um-And it was just a transformative drug. It, it was- they couldn't detect it, they couldn't test for it. Um, they brought in some interventions like a hematocrit test, so if your hematocrit went over four- uh, 50, you'd be pulled out of racing. But it was a, it was a health check, it wasn't a doping check. And it was rife, basically. So when he, this young sort of dreaming kid went into the sport, he, he genuinely thought you could do it clean, you wouldn't ever have to cheat. I don't even think he really knew that much about doping at that point in his life. And pretty quickly, he realized that actually most of the guys at the very top were doping, that the doping was endemic, that the expectation was you would dope, that that was what you would need to do if you wanted to be a professional and you wanted to be any good. And he resisted it for a really long time. Like, he, he was a time trialer, which is, you know, race against the clock, p- basically only racing yourself. And so he really stuck to his time trialing because he was like, "I can do that," like, "with the technology, with aerodynamics, with focus on my training. It's a shorter period of time, there's less requirement to kind of be as cardiovascularly supreme as the guys who are trying to win the tour are." Um, and so he did very, very well time trialing, went to his first Tour de France and won yellow, like, day one. Um, and, but, but what was happening was behind the scenes was this sort of erosion of his belief that he would be able to do it clean. His, his recognition that actually if he, if he really wanted to take it seriously and try and win the tour, he was gonna have to cheat. The people around him, the, the kind of network and the, the sort of framework around him was people who weren't looking out for him, weren't thinking what's best for him, weren't trying to work out how to make... help him fulfill his potential. They were trying to work out how to get him good enough to make enough money to win, you know, for them as a business.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett7:56

       Mm-hmm.

   14. FMFran Millar7:56

       They... He was a commodity in their business. Um, and I, like... I haven't actually ever told this story, but Francois Migrene who owned Cofidis, which is like a, a company that basically does telephone loans, I don't know what they do now, probably, you know, online loans. But, um, he had... he met my mum. So when, when we had all these teams that were sort of courting David, he met with my mum, and he promised her that he would look after him. Like promised... looked, looked her in the eyes and said, "I'll look after him." And, and yet he did nothing. Like, he, he built a team that was allowed to just get on with it. He'd sort of closed his eyes to it. And actually, when the big investigation into Cofidis started, it was Francois Migrene who effectively called out my brother. He was like, "I think Moncutier is probably clean, but David Millar, I, I wouldn't put my hand on my heart for him."

   15. SBSteven Bartlett8:39

       Really?

   16. FMFran Millar8:40

       And it was like, "You motherfucker." Do you know what I mean? Like...

   17. SBSteven Bartlett8:41

       Under the bus.

   18. FMFran Millar8:42

       Yeah. And you... and he, he's 24 years old. Like, what? He's... The only exposure he's had to the professional sport is your team. So if that's what's happened, it's your team and your people. Don't get me wrong, David absolutely has to take responsibility for his decisions in that.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett8:57

       Mm-hmm.

   20. FMFran Millar8:58

       But I for one know that when I was like 19 to 25, I wasn't making the best decisions I've made in my life. Do you know what I mean? (laughs)

   21. SBSteven Bartlett9:03

       Yeah. Yeah. (laughs) Another story.

   22. FMFran Millar9:04

       And I had some influential people around me who, had they told me to do things or if he... And it's that insidious thing, isn't it? It's a bit like kind of... I was listening to a, uh, book the other day about, um, decision-making and, you know, how if you look at, like, Nazi Germany and people say, "Oh, they were just following orders." And there was this big study done apparently where they put people in a room and they told them, like, "There's gonna be some... There's gonna be a student in there." It's a study. Can't remember the name. I think it was my gran or someone who did the study. "And you're gonna press this button. Don't worry, because-"

   23. SBSteven Bartlett9:33

       To shock them.

   24. FMFran Millar9:33

       "To shock them."

   25. SBSteven Bartlett9:33

       Yeah.

   26. FMFran Millar9:34

       "And the, the shock's gonna get bigger and bigger and bigger." And it's like, and 65% of the people would have pressed the button that would have effectively killed the person in the other room.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett9:40

       Mm-hmm.

   28. FMFran Millar9:41

       And it's like, "What?" And that's the human condition, right? So this idea that we, that we would make a better decision or that we'd make a better choice or that we'd do it differently, people seem to impose that on guys who decide to cheat in sport, decide to make these decisions. Like, well, how, how dare you make that decision? It's like, if you're in an environment, in a culture where that becomes the norm, where that becomes what people do, this idea that you're gonna be the one person who... And don't get me wrong, I know there are other people who do that, and fair play to them. That is i- that's impressive, you know, that you've been brought up in a certain way to enable you to make those decisions. But David was... he was fragile, he was impressionable, he was a dreamer, he was doing something he'd always wanted to do, he was passionate and desperate, desperate, desperate to, to be a success.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett10:24

       Mm-hmm.

   30. FMFran Millar10:25

       And I think he just got taken down the wrong path, you know?
3. 15:16 – 24:10

   “Being a difficult woman”

   1. SBSteven Bartlett15:16

      um, I heard... It just, uh, felt like a good turn towards one of the things that I s- I saw you share online, which was this article about being a difficult woman-

   2. FMFran Millar15:27

      Oh, yeah.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett15:27

      ... and the importance of, um, dispelling this q- sort of, like, niceness aura that women typically, um, are associated with in business that I think the article was suggesting holds them back.

   4. FMFran Millar15:39

      Mm-hmm.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett15:40

      How important has that been? Especially, you know, in a, when you were dealing in an industry which is pretty much full of men, and you got to the very, very top as the CEO of, of In- INEOS. How important was it to be willing to punch people in the face-

   6. FMFran Millar15:54

      (laughs)

   7. SBSteven Bartlett15:54

      ... being a little bit difficult at times?

   8. FMFran Millar15:57

      Ah, it's, it's such an interesting question 'cause that whole being a difficult woman, I think, is... The older I've gotten, the more I've kind of explored feminism and explored kind of the, the sort of female condition and the human condition. And it's like women are judged very differently for, for behaviors that in men would be seen as completely normal. So, you know, there's the, the sort of famous kind of meme that's the sort of, you know, men are assertive. Women are chippy. You know, men are confident. Women are arrogant. You know, it's like the same behavior gets viewed very differently through a very different lens. I've never filtered myself. It's not been... Anyone who's ever met me knows that I don't really come with a filter. Um, and I think it's really, really important that young women recognize that they don't have to apply a filter. You don't have to be the quiet one in the room. You don't have to... I remember reading, um, Sheryl S- Sheryl Sandberg's book about Lean In, and it was like, um, you know, w- young women will come into a meeting room, and they won't sit at a table. Like, they physically won't sit at a table. They'll sit, like, at the sides. And I was like, "Fuck off. Who does that?" And then I'd go to meetings, and I'd be like, I've noticed that, like, the 19, 20, 21-year-old younger women in the room, they'd wait for the guys to sit down. And you'd be like, "What the fuck are pe- why are people doing that?"

   9. SBSteven Bartlett17:05

      Mm-hmm.

   10. FMFran Millar17:05

       And it, you just, you, until you realize it's happening, you don't realize it's happening.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett17:09

       Mm-hmm.

   12. FMFran Millar17:09

       And so yeah, I've, I've always felt quite strongly that you just need to be yourself, be confident, be willing to get, get told you're a bitch, get told you're... And don't get me wrong. When I was younger, I was actually a bit of a bitch. I probably, I probably didn't, um, measure that behavior. I was a bit like, "Well, it's just who I am, and everyone needs to suck that up." And actually, you still have to be polite and have manners, and you still have to recognize that being aggressive is actually just sometimes being aggressive. It's not being assertive. (laughs)

   13. SBSteven Bartlett17:35

       Mm-hmm.

   14. FMFran Millar17:35

       And that balance, I think I've learned as I've got older, but I think it's... Yeah, I think women are judged totally differently for behaviors that men would be absolutely... It would, it would almost be, uh, sort of respected in a man for certain behaviors-

   15. SBSteven Bartlett17:48

       Mm-hmm.

   16. FMFran Millar17:49

       ... and in a woman, it's r- it's reviled.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett17:51

       There'll be, there'll be young women listening to this, and they'll be thinking, "Do you know what? I'd, I'd love to be like that, Fran, and I'd love to be a bit more, you know, assertive and etcetera, etcetera, but I just, you know, it's just not who I am." And so kind of the question that popped into my mind was where did that... You know, some might see it as confidence, but it's like a confidence in being your true self, right? Where did that... Do you know where that came from in you? Where, y- was it, you know-

   18. FMFran Millar18:12

       (sighs)

   19. SBSteven Bartlett18:13

       Is it experience? Is it-

   20. FMFran Millar18:14

       Yeah.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett18:14

       ... something that's happened in the household? Is it your mother was, taught you that behavior? Your father?

   22. FMFran Millar18:18

       Yeah, I think it's probably half nature, half nurture. Like, I think I, I a- you know-... my mum tells a story about when I was little and I was like, uh, you know, I'd, I'd just literally go off and speak to people. Like, she'd, she'd be sat at a, you know, bar at, you know, on a holiday and she'd wanna know what's going on with a couple over there, she'd be like, "Frances, go and ask them what they're doing," and I'd be like, "Okay."

   23. SBSteven Bartlett18:36

       (laughs)

   24. FMFran Millar18:36

       And off I'd go and chat to them. So I think I've always been very innately confident, and that doesn't, that's never gone away. Um, but equally I think I've, I've been very lucky, I've been very blessed. I've worked with people and in and around people where I've been allowed to be myself, I've been allowed to kind of grow up and make mistakes and fail and be a bit of an idiot and get told, "You're being a bit of an idiot," and not, not have that be a judgment upon me and limit me.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett19:00

       Mm-hmm.

   26. FMFran Millar19:01

       Um, and I think it's really interesting that kind of, you know, being assertive or being, being your true self has become a bigger and bigger thing that people talk about. And actually, being your true self doesn't mean you have to be assertive and confident; it means you have to be your true self. (laughs)

   27. SBSteven Bartlett19:13

       Yeah, yeah.

   28. FMFran Millar19:13

       And for a lot of people, that is a bit more insecure or a bit more... And that's fine. Bri- you can bring that to the table, you know, you can be an emotional person, you can be ha- ha- lack a bit of self-esteem and just be honest about that. So for me, I think it's just partially how I was brought up, but more the people I have been surrounded by on the journey of my life and career. I've been incredibly blessed that they have allowed me to make a lot of mistakes and correct, and course-correct me-

   29. SBSteven Bartlett19:40

       Mm-hmm.

   30. FMFran Millar19:40

       ... as I've gone on.
4. 24:10 – 28:51

   This idea of labels

   1. SBSteven Bartlett24:10

      You, you switched from working at INEOS, uh, over to Belstaff, um, quite f- relatively recently. Um, and I, I was reading, I think... No, I was listening to one of the, the podcasts that you'd done and you talked about how you'd worked in cycling pretty much your whole life. It was your...... pretty much your everything in terms of your professional experience. Um, I've also recently quit my job, and, uh-

   2. FMFran Millar24:29

      How does it feel?

   3. SBSteven Bartlett24:30

      Uh, everything, you feel everything, right? You feel, you know, it's bittersweet. You feel excited. On one hand, you're unsure about the future, but I, I trust myself enough to know that I'll figure it out 'cause I always have. Um, but yeah, all feelings. Um, I guess my question for you is, and, and the bit that I found particularly interesting is, people will do a thing for 10 years, for 5 years, whatever, and then they'll tell themselves that they are that thing.

   4. FMFran Millar24:52

      Mm-hmm.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett24:52

      They'll, like, give themselves the label, "I work in cycling. I'm a cycling person."

   6. FMFran Millar24:56

      Yeah.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett24:56

      It seems to be incredibly difficult, especially if they've been in that industry for a long time, to then take on a different label. You're now working in fashion, and it can... with a whole new set of challenges completely outside of your, uh, comfort zone to some extent, in some ways. How did you make that switch? What... how did it feel? Tell, tell me all about it.

   8. FMFran Millar25:14

      Um, it's... again, I'm gonna reference Steve Peters, but, eh, I remember 'cause I was so wedded to my job in cycling. Like, I lived and breathed it. I loved it. I cared deeply about the people. It, like, had this... it was so wrapped up in my identity. But I hadn't necessarily got a huge amount of satisfaction out of the job over the last two or three years, for a whole host of reasons, nothing to do with the team, just personal-development-wise. And every time I spoke to Steve, he'd be like, "Well, then why don't you just leave?" I'd be like, "Because I don't know who I am if I leave the cycling team." Do you know what I mean? And, and that was always a much longer conversation than that, but what effectively I was saying was, "I don't know who I am if I'm not that." And he kee- he said over and over again, "You will be whoever you go on to be. That's not gonna change. You are still there. You're letting this thing influence all these views about yourself. You're letting it influence what you... your value, your worth, your, you know, your sort of substance, your contribution to life. Like, you're, you're letting... uh, th- it's a job."

   9. SBSteven Bartlett26:13

      Mm-hmm.

   10. FMFran Millar26:13

       He's like, "It's a job." And I was like, "You don't get it. You don't understand. It's more important than that." And you know what? When I got asked to go and do Belstaff, and I left, and it broke my heart. Like, I cried my eyes out. And I started at Belstaff, and I... yeah, I sound, feel awful saying this, but within 48 hours, I was like, "Oh my God, I love it here, and I love the people here, and this is brilliant. I'm so excited." And actually, it is just a job. That was just a job. And yes, I miss it, and yes, it was incredible, and yes, I love the people. And I still love the people. But it's just a job. It's not my family. It's not who I am. It's not my identity. It's just a part of my life, and I'll be eternally grateful for having done it. But now I've got a new challenge. And I was like, "I'm really pleased I did it when I did," 'cause everyone, I think, had been saying to me for a long time, you know, "Once you leave, you'll be like, 'Oh, I should have done this five years ago.'" And I don't feel like that at all. I feel, you know, I did that for the right amount of time.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett27:03

       Mm-hmm.

   12. FMFran Millar27:03

       I loved it. I've banked it, moving on to something else.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett27:07

       And it's that point there about thinking that that job was your identity-

   14. FMFran Millar27:10

       Yeah.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett27:10

       ... that I think really, like, holds people down.

   16. FMFran Millar27:11

       Yeah.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett27:12

       Um, 'cause, 'cause you're right. Jobs are their f- friends-

   18. FMFran Millar27:14

       Yeah.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett27:14

       ... their community, their purpose.

   20. FMFran Millar27:16

       Yeah.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett27:16

       They are, they're... you know, as you say, they're your identity. Um...

   22. FMFran Millar27:20

       And that's dangerous.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett27:21

       Really dangerous, yeah.

   24. FMFran Millar27:21

       Like, that's dangerous, you know, because actually they're not.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett27:24

       Yeah.

   26. FMFran Millar27:24

       They're not y- they're not your identity, and no matter how much you love it, no matter how passionate you are about it, if you... eh, and this would be the lesson I would sort of give to myself, the sort of, it doesn't matter. It's a job. You're being paid to do it. It's a job. And, and I would have railed against that even a year ago. Like, "No, it isn't. It's more important than that." And, you know what, as soon as y- as soon as I left, I was like, "It's b-"... and my brother always used to say to me, "Your team aren't your family. Your team aren't your family." And I never really understood what he meant 'cause I thought, "Well, they are my family."

   27. SBSteven Bartlett27:54

       (laughs)

   28. FMFran Millar27:54

       Like, do you know what I mean? I loved them. There they are, my family.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett27:56

       Yeah (laughs) .

   30. FMFran Millar27:56

       And then you leave, and you're like, "Oh, no, what he means is your family are there forever. Your family are wedded, and you, you can't unpick your family. They are, they're something that's..." Whereas when you leave a job, you, you take away the memories, you take away the happy times, you take away the good stuff, but your f- the fabric of who you are doesn't change.
5. 28:51 – 38:32

   The move away from cycling

   1. SBSteven Bartlett28:51

   2. FMFran Millar28:51

      Yeah.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett28:51

      But speak to me about the challenge. So, you, you d- decide to take this job at Belstaff, and it is a big challenge. It's, it's widely reported that Belstaff has been... is, had, had, eh, you know, struggled across the years. It was rec-... it was acquired in, I think, 2017.

   4. FMFran Millar29:04

      Yep.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett29:05

      It was making losses then, and the losses have, I think, narrowed over the last couple of years to some extent. But it's a big challenge, right?

   6. FMFran Millar29:10

      Mm-hmm.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett29:11

      A big challenge. It would have been much easier to take a dif- different job.

   8. FMFran Millar29:14

      (laughs) So first and foremost, I didn't take it. I was... I literally had a conversation with my chairman at INEOS, um, about, "You know, maybe over the next couple of years, I wanna think about moving on and doing something different." And when we... when Dave B. comes back from the tour... this was in September. I said, "When he comes back from the tour at the end of the season, I think I'd like to sit down and have a chat with my chairman and my boss, Dave, about my future." That was the sum total of my conversation. And literally a week later, I got a call saying, "Jim would like you to be the CEO of Belstaff." And, you know, w- with the best will in the world when Jim Ratcliffe asks you to do something, you don't kind of go, "Mm, let me have a think about that."

   9. SBSteven Bartlett29:50

      You don't, no.

   10. FMFran Millar29:51

       And I just thought, "Okay, well, what an opportunity," and, and I went for it. But I didn't... I wasn't looking to change. I wasn't... I hadn't, like, planned to move on. So that was... in some ways, whilst it was quite traumatic, the sort of three or four weeks of... 'cause I literally... I got phoned, like, on the 16th of September, and I was in role on the 1st of October.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett30:08

       Wow.

   12. FMFran Millar30:09

       So it was like, yeah, like two weeks of just...

   13. SBSteven Bartlett30:11

       Why did you want to have the conversation though when Dave g- got back about your future?

   14. FMFran Millar30:14

       'Cause I wanted to... so I wanted to... I'd sort of been thinking, like I said, about the conversation with Steve about kind of, "I'm not sure if I'm happy doing this job anymore, and if... I'm not sure if I'm fulfilled." I'd kind of reached the point sort of middle of last year where I was thinking, "You know what?... I do need to start thinking about my future and my life and my career, and I don't know whether that's always gonna be in cycling, and I don't know whether the CEO of the cycling team is 100% why I want. So, I wanted to speak to my chairman first, to kind of sound him out. And then when Dave gets back from racing, because I don't want to interfere with the racing, have a conversation about my future. So, I just literally put it on the ra- the radar-

   15. SBSteven Bartlett30:49

       Sure.

   16. FMFran Millar30:49

       ... of the chairman. And probably a little bit out of frustration for myself as well, but like, I wanna feel like I'm moving this on, 'cause otherwise I'm gonna sit and not do anything with it. Do you know what I mean? I'm gonna-

   17. SBSteven Bartlett30:58

       Did you feel stagnant-

   18. FMFran Millar30:59

       Yeah.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett30:59

       ... in the role? Is that the main, the crux of what you're getting at? What was the-

   20. FMFran Millar31:02

       (sighs)

   21. SBSteven Bartlett31:02

       ... let's see if I can relate? (laughs)

   22. FMFran Millar31:04

       Uh, I... (laughs)

   23. SBSteven Bartlett31:06

       (laughs)

   24. FMFran Millar31:08

       I felt... So, I had done what is effectively 20 years in pro cycling. It ... Well, like you say, it was all I knew, it's all I'd done. And I know everybody in it, pretty much. You know, I've been in and around it my whole life. I'm David Millar's little sister. It's like, you know, part of my DNA. We got a qu- we ... And I loved being part of Team Sky. Like, we did that for 10 years and it was ... That's what always used to say, "Cut me in the middle, I bleed blue." And I absolutely loved it. And then when Sky said they were out at the end of 2018, I was like, "Right. I'm done. I'm outta here. I'm not gonna do this anymore." I spoke- went straight to Dave B. I was like, "It's been amazing. I've loved it, but let ... I'm gonna ... Once the team stops being Sky, I'm gonna go." And he was like, "Okay, cool." I don't think he believed me, but he was like, "Okay, cool." And then we ... H- he said to me, "Look, would you help at least find a new sponsor? Let's see if we can find a new sponsor." He's a bugger like that.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett31:55

       (laughs)

   26. FMFran Millar31:55

       So I was like, "Okay. I'll try and help you find a new sponsor and then I'll move on." And then, you know, February comes 2019, you know, he's m- he meets Jim. Jim decides that he wants to acquire the team. It ... You know, he ... Jim's arguably one of the most successful businessmen in the world.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett32:10

       Mm-hmm.

   28. FMFran Millar32:10

       We went and met with him and talked about, you know, the design of the kit and everything else. And I was like, "I'm gonna get sucked into this shit."

   29. SBSteven Bartlett32:16

       (laughs)

   30. FMFran Millar32:16

       Um, and then, and then one of the other senior managers in the team decided to leave and go and work for another team. And Dave B. was like, "Would you stay? You can be CEO," which was what I really wanted to be. It's a massive opportunity. And I was like, "Okay, I'll stay." And I think that was the point of the decision there, that I was like, uh, you know, this is a big career decision for me that I'm staying. Again, I told all my mates I was gonna leave. I was like, you know, "This is it. This time, this time I'm going." They're like, "Mm-hmm."
6. 38:32 – 45:20

   Winning behaviours

   1. SBSteven Bartlett38:32

      I was reading about this winning behaviors role-

   2. FMFran Millar38:35

      (laughs)

   3. SBSteven Bartlett38:35

      ... you took on, which is a very curious title.

   4. FMFran Millar38:37

      Yes, it is.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett38:38

      What was your remit as the head of winning behaviors at team IN-NEOS?

   6. FMFran Millar38:41

      So it was- it was when it was Team Sky.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett38:43

      Okay.

   8. FMFran Millar38:43

      Um, but same name. Um, so basically, 2010, we first started racing. We'd started the team in two- we'd sort of begun the journey of starting the team in 2008 off the back of the Beijing Games. Started racing in 2010. We were shit, like embarrassingly shit, and we'd been like smoke and mirrors and like, you know, we kind of- we had the big bus and we had all the money and we were sponsored by Sky and it's like, "Oh, we're gonna be amazing," and we were rubbish. So we totally reset everything and, and Dave needs to be fair to him, he's like a master of, "Okay, we're, we're going this way, it's not working, we're going somewhere else." Like he's, he's incredible at it. So he totally shifted the way that we're gonna run the team. We took a totally different approach. We started to be very successful in 2011. We'd obviously set the objective when we announced the team that we were gonna try and win the Tour de France with a clean British rider in five years. And that was in, start of 2010. Bradley won the tour in 2012. So within the space of two year- three years effectively, we'd done it. The following year, Chris Froome won it.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett39:42

      Mm-hmm.

   10. FMFran Millar39:42

       And we had gone from being this team that was like on a mission, like heads down, asses up, we would go in, like there was- nothing was gonna stop us, we were full on, to su- And so when people sign up to that, you know, people are signing contracts in 2010 with a team that doesn't exist, that has never raced on the road before, that comes from a track background, that's full of Brits who aren't historically that famous for road cycling, they were, they were signing a kind of, you know, they were, they were adventurers, right? They were like these bold, ambitious, this is a bit batshit crazy, but we'll do it. When people were signing contracts at the end of 2013, they were signing with a team that had won the Tour de France twice, that was arguably the most dominant team in the sport, that had gone on- you know, sort of achieved this inc- these incredible feats. And they had a different expectation of what they were joining to what we were. And we sort of suddenly realized that actually if we were serious about continuing and continuing to be successful, codifying what had got us where we were was gonna be crucial. And we'd also seen, for those of your listeners who are cycling fans, we'd had the Bradley Wiggins and Chris Froomes kind of divide. So Brad had obviously come first in 2012, but Froomie had come second. Bradley didn't even ri- Bradley never rode the tour again. So Bradley didn't ride in 2013, Froomie did and he went on to win. And you started to see this divide in the team where it's like, "Well, I'm Team Bradley or I'm Team Froomie," and it was like, "Mm-uh, no, check your paycheck, you're Team Sky."

   11. SBSteven Bartlett41:00

       Mm-hmm.

   12. FMFran Millar41:01

       And that, that kind of actually who are we, what do we stand for, what do we expect from people, wh- what do we need to be able to do to be the best in the world at this, needed codifying and it needed, it needed a way of- a sort of charter almost to tell people, "This is how you're gonna have to do this." And really, it was about eradicating losing behavior. It was about saying to people, bitching, backstabbing, saying you're Team Froomie or you're Team Brad or, you know, criticizing people behind their back or whatever, that's not acceptable. But you- being ahead of losing behavior would have been shit, so we called it winning behavior.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett41:32

       (laughs)

   14. FMFran Millar41:33

       (laughs) So it was all about creating a set of behaviors for the organization that enabled us to say to people, "This is what it means to put this jersey on. This is what it means to be a part of this team. It's not just about, you know, the glory and the winning. This is hard graft. This is..." You know, it, it was arguably the hardest thing I've ever done, you know, working in that environment. It's- it is unrelenting. It is- it- I mean, it's brilliant and it's f- amazing and incredibly good fun, but it's hard, hard work. And you've got to go all in. You know, this isn't- this isn't for the faint-hearted.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett42:05

       Mm-hmm.

   16. FMFran Millar42:06

       And so the whole winning behaviors thing was about creating an environment where we could give people the parameters that we expected them to live by, but also ensure that they felt supported, safe.... able to deliver their very best in an environment that is actually very high pressure, so that was my job effectively, helping Dave create the behaviors in the first instance with the whole team and then helping keep them alive within the business.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett42:28

       What were some of those, you mentioned a couple of them there about not being a backstabber-

   18. FMFran Millar42:31

       Yeah.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett42:31

       ... and understanding the importance of hard work. What were some of the other, um... Let's, just, let's just focus on losing behaviors, some of the, some of the traits or some of the threats to success-

   20. FMFran Millar42:40

       Yeah.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett42:40

       ... that you'd see in the team. I'm thinking this from an organizational standpoint as, like-

   22. FMFran Millar42:44

       Yeah.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett42:45

       ... someone that's worked in business, can you-

   24. FMFran Millar42:46

       So we separated them into five different areas. We had self, team, um, communication, continuous improvement, and, uh... What was the other one? Oh, it's gone. Anyway, it, uh, quickly hap-

   25. SBSteven Bartlett42:59

       (laughs)

   26. FMFran Millar42:59

       Quickly you move on, right? Um, but they, they... So they were t- self was all about identifying your own emot- managing your own emotions, being in control of your own emotions, so a losing behavior of that would be losing your shit, you know, being aggressive and arrogant with people, not being able to recognize when you are too emotional to be in a high-performance environment. We have this... the whole chimp model.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett43:18

       Mm-hmm.

   28. FMFran Millar43:18

       You know, Steve's philosophy around that is there's nothing wrong with being emotional, there's nothing wrong with having a chimp, but you have to know when to get out the room if that's what's going on. Don't bring your emotion into an environment where you're expecting people to perform at their very best.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett43:30

       Mm-hmm.

   30. FMFran Millar43:31

       So that kind of management of self, absolutely critical. And then team was all about the impact that you have as a m- team member. You know, I think people kind of think teams are this kind of static thing, that you create a great team and that's it. It's like, as you well know, having run suc- very successful businesses, teams are like these organic, ever-changing... You know, you could bring one person in, and it have a massive impact on the team. You take one person out, it can ruin a team. Do you know what I mean? So there's sort of the dynamics of a team and your role within that are crucial, so, you know, not wearing your team kit, you know, wearing a slightly different trainer, you know, um, criticizing the team, not buying into the sort of collective opinion, not sort of... W- Dave B. has this really big thing about he'll listen, he'll seek counsel from everyone, he'll listen to everyone's opinion. He wants to get to a collective opinion. He wants to get to a collective view of what the right direction is. But ultimately, if we can't get there, he'll make the call, and then you've all gotta be on the bus.
7. 45:20 – 50:50

   Key qualities to success

   1. SBSteven Bartlett45:20

   2. FMFran Millar45:20

      Yeah.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett45:20

      Um, you talk a lot about Dave as well, Sir David Brailsford.

   4. FMFran Millar45:22

      Yes.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett45:23

      Um, and very fondly, I think.

   6. FMFran Millar45:25

      Yeah.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett45:25

      A lot of your tweets, from my stalking, were, were centered around him and, and things that he was doing.

   8. FMFran Millar45:29

      Yeah.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett45:30

      What are some of the, the key qualities of, of, of him that have made him so successful and his mindset, or, you know?

   10. FMFran Millar45:37

       Oh, big question. I mean, eh, a- him and Steve Peters are two most influential men in my life without a shadow of a doubt. Um, you know, they, they are symbiotic because they are... I think if Dave hadn't had Steve, he maybe wouldn't be who he is, and I think if Steve hadn't met Dave, he maybe would be a slightly different version of himself. So they, they complement each other brilliantly. Dave is, is a brilliant man manager. He's, he's incredibly visionary. He's very brave, you know? You said the thing about jumping off a cliff and hoping you get your glider

   11. NANarrator46:08

       Vroom.

   12. FMFran Millar46:08

       He thought... Dave's the, the king of that. Dave's like, "We're gonna go, the, we're gonna go and achieve that," and everyone's like, "Fuck off," and he's like, "Come on, let's go," and people are like, "Okay."

   13. SBSteven Bartlett46:16

       (laughs)

   14. FMFran Millar46:16

       And 'cause he's so, he's so bold with it, he's so confident with it that he... and he's an incredible leader that people w- literally... I mean, I would've followed that man off the edge of a cliff-

   15. SBSteven Bartlett46:24

       Mm-hmm.

   16. FMFran Millar46:25

       ... and I think that he has that quality in him, you know? He's unrelenting. You know, anyone who's worked... And he's difficult, you know, like all geniuses are. He's a, he's a tricky guy. He's-

   17. SBSteven Bartlett46:35

       Why?

   18. FMFran Millar46:36

       Um...

   19. SBSteven Bartlett46:37

       How, maybe, is a better question (laughs) .

   20. FMFran Millar46:39

       In all kinds of ways, you know. He's very... I think I've spoken about it on other interviews I've done. He can be very, um, he can be very particular. He's very detail-orientated. He's, he wants to know all the facts before he makes a decision. He'll, he'll go af- he'll, like, go after something for ages and ages and ages. You're like, "Oh, my God, make the decision or get on with it," and then he'll make a decision that's totally off to the other side, and you're like, "Ugh, so-"

   21. SBSteven Bartlett47:03

       Doesn't make sense. This contradiction.

   22. FMFran Millar47:05

       Or, yeah, or it's, or it's brilliantly genius 'cause you think, "Oh, all that work that you were doing, the decision I would've made and just got on with it and made the decision would've taken us that way, and that would've been the wrong way."

   23. SBSteven Bartlett47:14

       Mm-hmm.

   24. FMFran Millar47:14

       And it's, and it's that kind of hu- eh, all the way through my career with him, he would do that. And I'd be like, "It's 'cause Cl- he's just clever like that," you know? His, his ferocious appetite for learning, he- r- unrelenting work ethic, you know-

   25. SBSteven Bartlett47:28

       Mm-hmm.

   26. FMFran Millar47:28

       ... expects incredible, sets incredibly high standards and expects people to meet them, and yet-

   27. SBSteven Bartlett47:33

       Not all people can, right?

   28. FMFran Millar47:34

       No, absolutely. And he'd, um... You know, we openly say that not all people can. There's nothing wrong with not being able to meet them. You've got to be compassionately ruthless. You know, that's what he always says, which is basically if you're not, if you're not, you set a standard, and if people can't meet them, then, then they're not in the right organization. And it's better, it's a bit like the arrogant asshole, it's better to be honest with them and say, "You know what? This isn't for you," than to kind of allow them to keep failing.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett47:57

       Mm-hmm.

   30. FMFran Millar47:58

       I think that can be very cruel to people, you know, if they're in an environment, they're constantly trying to be better but they just can't do it, that's... Yeah.
8. 50:50 – 1:02:53

   Relationships & Work

   1. FMFran Millar50:50

      hard.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett50:50

      I've, I've also struggled in the relationship department-

   3. FMFran Millar50:53

      Yeah.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett50:53

      ... unsurprisingly. Never, you know, been that good at relationships, uh, never been able to hold a relationship down. Um, can't really see how it happens-

   5. FMFran Millar51:02

      (laughs)

   6. SBSteven Bartlett51:02

      ... necessarily.

   7. FMFran Millar51:02

      I hear you. (laughs)

   8. SBSteven Bartlett51:03

      Talk to me about that part of, I was gonna call it sacrifice, but when it's somewhat intentional-

   9. FMFran Millar51:08

      Yeah.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett51:08

       ... and when you're aware of it, it's hard to call it sacrifice.

   11. FMFran Millar51:11

       Just doesn't motivate me. I know that sounds awful. (laughs) I'm not motivated to have somebody in my life. I'm not motivated to be like, "Right, I want a partner. I want that companionship." You know, we, when I arrived, we were t- chatting about how this, the environment that we're all living in, actually, I, I love being on my own. I, I'm very happy in my own company. I, I'm very passionate about what I do, and I think that fulfills the space that maybe other people have other, have, have other passions for, right? And so, yeah, it's never been a, it's never been a goal of mine. I've never dreamt of the white wedding. I've never wanted to... And there's never a bit of me that sits at home and thinks, "Oh, I wish I had someone to sit and watch telly with," ever. Not, doesn't, doesn't even cross my mind. And my mates are always like, "Do you not get lonely?" Or, "Do you not worry?"

   12. SBSteven Bartlett51:51

       Mm-hmm.

   13. FMFran Millar51:51

       And I'm like, "No, I feel like I should because it would make you all feel better."

   14. SBSteven Bartlett51:56

       Mm-hmm.

   15. FMFran Millar51:56

       But, and, uh, you know, about five or six years ago, 'cause everyone was on at me all the time, I, like, did a bit of dating, did some internet, you know, used some apps, everything else. I was like, "This, why am I doing this? I'm doing this because society wants me to do this."

   16. SBSteven Bartlett52:07

       Mm-hmm.

   17. FMFran Millar52:07

       "I'm doing this 'cause my mates want me to do this." This is bullshit. Um, if it's right, if it's right, it'll come. If it's not, it won't.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett52:14

       Did you, did you date at all throughout the last, I guess, decade? Did you...

   19. FMFran Millar52:18

       Here and there, but it's like, (exhales) "Kill me." You know, someone's like-

   20. SBSteven Bartlett52:22

       (laughs)

   21. FMFran Millar52:22

       ... "Kill me now." You know, that kind of small talk.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett52:24

       (laughs)

   23. FMFran Millar52:24

       Oh my God, it's like my idea of hell on earth. Going and meeting a stranger, having small talk, slightly awkward, with kind of one endgame. Do you know what I mean?

   24. SBSteven Bartlett52:33

       Mm-hmm.

   25. FMFran Millar52:33

       And it's like, and I'll know within two minutes if that endgame's happening, and I'm like, "I don't really need this small talk." (laughs)

   26. SBSteven Bartlett52:38

       Yeah, yeah, yeah, you don't have to do that for an hour and a half.

   27. FMFran Millar52:39

       Yeah. (laughs)

   28. SBSteven Bartlett52:40

       Yeah.

   29. FMFran Millar52:40

       We don't need to dress this up.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett52:41

       (laughs)
9. 1:02:53 – 1:08:55

   How to be successful like you

   1. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:53

      yeah. If, if people were to, you know, people, they, they read about you online, and they see you've been the CEO of this amazing sports team, you ran your own agency before that, you're now the CEO of Belstaff, a lot of people, especially young women, are gonna think, "That's exactly what I want to do." They're gonna think that's amazing. There's always a disclaimer that comes with all of these things. What is the disclaimer in terms of the cost of the success you've achieved? What are the things that, you know, if I'm, you, you would turn to me as a, as a young, um, aspiring, ambitious person and say, "By the way, before you follow in my footsteps, here's what you need to know"?

Episode duration: 1:24:07