Jaackmaate: The Untold Story Of My Battle With Health Anxiety & OCD | E127

Steven Bartlett 0:00 Could you do me a quick favor if you're listening to this? Please hit the follow or subscribe button. It helps more than you know, and we invite subscribers in every month to watch the show in person.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 0:07 People know Jack Mate for being the guy to slag stuff off, and that's funny. And then when the content dried up, well, I've now got to go and look for someone who's doing something wrong. You can only do that for so long before you just hate yourself. Didn't really get on w- with my mum. She would do and say things that I don't think any mum should really do. Things would happen at home and I'd have, like, a mark on my face, like, from someone that shouldn't have given me that mark. I made a video reacting to Zoella's advent calendar. That changed the game for me. The, the upload before that, I was gonna quit. I struggle with, um, health anxiety and OCD. There's probably 15 to 20 times a day where I actually convince myself that I have cancer.

Steven Bartlett 0:50 So you're too fearful to go and get a health check done?

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 0:53 If I go there and the doctor's like, "Yeah, you're ill," then that's the end for me.

Steven Bartlett 0:58 What do you mean that's the end for you? Jack, give me the, uh, give me the context on your life. You know, I, I sat here yesterday with Israel Ad- Adesanya and he told me about his childhood. Um, and there was hints of that that really kind of felt similar to the experience that I read you've had as, as a young man as well. And then also, I think, the other one where I could see real distinct similarities, and I think you might have listened to this podcast, is Jimmy Carr.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 1:29 Yeah. Yeah, what a man.

Steven Bartlett 1:31 Yeah, what a man, right?

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 1:32 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:32 He's like a... I didn't realize he was s- he was gonna be such a philosopher.

Steven Bartlett 1:35 One of the things he said to me was, you know, when someone t- becomes a comedic figure, which I consider you to be in many respects, I think you are.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 1:43 Mm-hmm. I'll take that.

Steven Bartlett 1:43 Yeah, good. Okay.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 1:44 I'll take that.

Steven Bartlett 1:44 Um, he, he says that instead of asking... 'Cause there's, you know, there's this kinda stereotype that the person themselves is struggling with something and they're trying to make other people laugh. He said to me, as you might have heard, he said, "You've actually got to ask them which one of their parents they were trying to please or to, to make happy." Does that resonate with you at all?

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 2:01 Um, yeah. I mean, upbringing, didn't really get on w- with my mum. I don't think she truly understood the potential in YouTube, whereas my dad always did. So when I was sort of like, like, we're... I guess, how old are you, Steve?

Steven Bartlett 2:15 29.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 2:16 29. Okay, so I'm 29 in like two weeks time.

Steven Bartlett 2:18 Yeah.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 2:18 So like, we ki- we were kinda like the first kind of content creators in a way. Like we, we kind of like paved the way, if you will.

Steven Bartlett 2:25 You did.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 2:25 Some people did.

Steven Bartlett 2:26 But yeah, I was later to the party as well.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 2:27 Well, people like Charlie and So Cool liked it-

Steven Bartlett 2:29 Yeah.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 2:29 ... and I just followed them, I guess. But, um, yeah. My mum didn't really get... She might, she might argue this point, I don't know, but I don't think she really saw the, um, the potential in what I was doing, so I was just some kid in my bedroom just talking to a camera, just waffling, not getting a real job, sort of thing. And, um, she has, she has her issues and stuff with alcohol and whatnot, ended up kicking me out. Long story short, um, I was kind of at a crossroads at some point, quite early on, maybe like 18, 19, where I was living in my uncle's box room at his, at his, um, flat, which isn't the nicest environment in the world, I, I think you wouldn't mind me saying. And then I kind of thought, "Okay, I have to try and take this YouTube shit serious." And at that time, I didn't know what the YouTube shit was. So ever since that moment... I think the pivotal moment for me was I bought a whiteboard. I bought a whiteboard and that changed-

Steven Bartlett 3:20 (laughs) Smiths plan.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 3:20 That... Yeah. That, that changed everything and... 'Cause I never took YouTube serious, like a job, like a nine to five. It was always something that I would just, just do.

Steven Bartlett 3:28 Mm-hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 3:28 Just, just moan about something or take a, uh, do a funny take on something or whatever. So I bought a whiteboard, chopped it up into a month and wrote my plan, and then I think it was in like 2012, I had this thing where I was like, "I'm just gonna say yes to anything that comes in my inbox."

Steven Bartlett 3:44 Mm-hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 3:44 And I just, for 365 days, just did. And then ever since then, it's just felt like I'm on this weird kind of j- Like, I've still not worked it out. Like, you've got your shit together, Steve. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 3:54 No, I haven't. No, I haven't.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 3:56 Look how many cameras there are here. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 3:58 (laughs) It doesn't... I think c- cameras isn't, uh, yeah, an indication of having my shit together. But I... Okay, I take-

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 4:05 You're a dragon.

Steven Bartlett 4:06 It's mad, isn't it?

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 4:07 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 4:07 Yeah.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 4:08 Just the word dragon. Like, that's mental.

Steven Bartlett 4:10 It is m- It is crazy. You've just reminded me of how much I resonated with what you were saying because I had a really, um... What's the r- right word? I had a r- a real issue with the fact that my mother was so different.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 4:23 Right.

Steven Bartlett 4:24 And so challenging at times.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 4:26 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 4:26 Like, as I write about in my book, showing up to my school in her lingerie when I was maybe s- seven years old.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 4:33 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 4:33 And things like that.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 4:34 Right.

Steven Bartlett 4:35 Like, r- And it... And I've always really wanted to have a normal family and a normal mother-

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 4:41 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 4:41 ... and that kinda thing. And I kind of, I kind of got that from reading your stuff. And there's a couple of things where you talk about some of the challenges y- you think she has.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 4:47 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 4:48 Which I also think my mother has.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 4:49 Oh wow, really?

Steven Bartlett 4:50 Yes. She's actually started to talk a little bit about that.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 4:54 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 4:54 Um, and I s-

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 4:55 Yeah, m- Sorry, m- Yeah. M- I don't know if my mum's ever been diagnosed with it, um, 'cause there's always been kind of like rumors and that, that that's the case. And I've... 'Cause I've not been a part of her life in the past like eight, nine years, I don't know-

Steven Bartlett 5:06 Oh, you haven't?

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 5:06 No, not re- I see her at like my nan's at Christmas time and stuff, but there's always a very awkward kind of vibe, where now it's kind of just like that nodding terms. And s- for someone who's your mum, that's a weird, that's a weird thing to be. Yeah, it's just, it's just... Yeah. Growing up is just... Uh, y- you hit the nail on the head there when you said about your mum, like she would do and say things that I don't think any mum should really do. And it's hard now because at what point do you... At what point is it water under the bridge? Like-

Steven Bartlett 5:35 Mm-hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 5:35 ... at what point do you go, "Okay, I'm just gonna make up with her." Sounds v- very like juvenile and stuff, but when so much has happened in your past, how... Oh, w- when is the day when you go, "Okay, I'll accept you again now," and she sees that. 'Cause she'll text me every now and then, but my worry is that because she's always struggled with alcoholism, she'll text me at half 11 on a Saturday night. I wanna get that text message at 10:30 on a Tuesday morning.

Steven Bartlett 6:02 Mm-hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 6:02 I don't wanna get it at 11:30 a- on a Saturday night.

Steven Bartlett 6:04 Mm-hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 6:04 So I won't reply and then she'll just assume that there's a lot of-... animosity still there? And I guess there is, but, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 6:10 It's funny, 'cause I sat here actually, I think yesterday, with my sister. And I don't see my sister much, I think I see my sister once a year.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 6:16 Right.

Steven Bartlett 6:16 And my sister really wants me to kind of like reconnect with my mum, and like get back on good terms with her. But, um, for the exact, for the... I think it sounds like pretty similar reasons to you. I was trying to explain to my sister that like I need to have boundaries with everybody in my life, not just like my friends, but also with my family. And it, at- at some point you've got to protect yourself-

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 6:36 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 6:36 ... from going back around the fucking-

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 6:39 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 6:39 ... you know, like taking them back in and forgiving them for whatever they might have done for you-

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 6:42 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 6:42 ... done to you, and then getting sucked back in because, you know, you're, you've fallen for this trick once almost.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 6:48 Yeah. Oh, mate, I've fallen for it too many times. Yeah. And- and I really got my life together and I started on this kind of trajectory where I am now once I left home. That was when it was kind of like, okay, you need to make this work or you- you're- you're just done. You're just in your uncle's box room forever, sort of thing. So, if it weren't for my mum, I wouldn't have bought that whiteboard. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 7:07 Yeah. What a pivotal moment.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 7:08 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 7:08 And what about your dad? I- I heard that story about watching the World Cup, and that was-

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 7:12 Yeah. My- my dad's quality. My dad is quality 'cause he's been through a lot of stuff in his life. So I don't know if you know, but my dad went to prison for manslaughter when he was young, very young.

Steven Bartlett 7:22 Oh, did he?

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 7:23 Yeah. Got in- got in a fight with, um, with- with some- some bloke outside a pub. Got in a- in a- in a dispute and, uh, hit him, and the guy fell and- and passed away. And that plagues my dad now, 'cause they're just two kids fighting in a- in a- in a pub car park, like... So he went to prison. He came out and he's just, he's just a grafter. Like that pains him inside. He has to live every day with that. Obviously it's not right what he did, but, um, I'm never, I'm never going to say that. But he's brought me up with a lot of morals and he's taught me if you ever get in any fights, like you run away. Like you don't need to be the big man like- like he was. And he's always had my back from day one, and he's- he's like my best mate. So for example, like, when I first got my- my first YouTube check through, I think it was like $60 was like the threshold that you had to get back in the day.

Steven Bartlett 8:08 Mm-hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 8:09 And I think I got paid, sort of was like that 45 quid or something. And, um, I- I'm from a, I'm from a council estate, never had any money. (clears throat) And I got that 45 pounds, and instead of giving my mum any money, I just went to Topman, bought some T-shirts. Like you remember them old sort of T-shirts with the collar? (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 8:25 Yes, with the little buttons down here.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 8:27 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 8:27 Oh my God, I wanted every color.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 8:28 Yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 8:28 It was like the collar was different color to the top.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 8:31 Yeah, and the buttons were different colors.

Steven Bartlett 8:32 Yeah.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 8:32 Yeah. And I- and I got a couple of those, and um, I was f- I was in my room, and I remember my mum coming in and having a go and being like, "Oh, you should give me like half of that," or whatever. And then she went, "And you've just wasted it on fucking T-shirts." And I had done that, that is literally what I'd bought. But my dad, I remember my dad coming in and going, "He needs those T-shirts 'cause he can't be wearing the same stuff in all of his videos."

Steven Bartlett 8:52 Mm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 8:52 And it was like, he didn't know if that was why I was buying them or not.

Steven Bartlett 8:54 (laughs)

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 8:54 But like he- he'd literally just made up a reason to- to apply it to my YouTube channel and justified why I was... Like, why did I have to justify at that age why I'm buying T-shirts?

Steven Bartlett 9:02 Yeah, yeah.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 9:02 But my dad just knew from the off. I- I guess none of us really knew the potential in YouTube back in the day. We were all just sort of testing the waters and just having fun. But I feel like my dad kind of had an idea that I... He- he- he trusted that I saw something in it even if he didn't. So, I owe him a lot in that respect. And now when I see him, if I've been doing good in my life, bad in my life, if I've... Yeah. I'll tell him everything and he'll just give me the best advice ever. And yeah, it's just... I'm glad I had him, 'cause he was very much the- the counterweight.

Steven Bartlett 9:33 I really vividly remember the moment when my dad called me to the kitchen table and basically said, "I don't love, I don't love your mother."

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 9:40 Right.

Steven Bartlett 9:40 Like I can almost, um, remember what I was wearing. And I remember from reading about your story that there was a moment where your dad basically said, "I'm going to leave after this football match."

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 9:48 Yeah. Yeah, during the World Cup final, 2006 I think it was when Italy won on penalties and Zidane did that head butt.

Steven Bartlett 9:54 Yeah. Oh, yeah.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 9:55 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 9:55 Yeah, yeah.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 9:55 Um, yeah. So my mum would always kick him out. Yeah, she'd always just, when she'd had enough, she'd kick him out. And it- it was very much a case of I think my dad loved my mum more than my mum loved my dad. And my dad was, I think he'd admit, he was like the- the kind of like lapdog that would come running back. My mum would kick him out and he'd come back and it'd be ki... I'd see it, I'd see it as a kid, like them having an argument, he'd be kicked out so unfairly. Like, and I just, I wouldn't be able to work it out. But I kind of understood it because I was on the receiving end of that kind of judgment and- and stuff sometimes. So I remember he would al- she'd always kick him out and he'd go around his friends, and I'd go and visit him at his friend's. And again, he had a little box room as well, and he hated it and he was a proper grafter working all the hours under the sun. So one day he just went, "She's going to kick me out again, and I'm j- and I'm just gone. And then... And I'm just going to go." And he, and it... Luckily like he didn't travel to the other side of the world, he just went to a town 30-

Steven Bartlett 10:47 Mm-hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 10:48 ... 30 minutes up the road. But yeah, we was watching a football game, World Cup, and I thought, I better enjoy this 'cause it's going to be different after this. And I think it was a bit different after that, 'cause I think if I- if home life was ever bad, he was always the one that I'd be able to chat to about it and that. And then after- after that... It's a good job it was a good football game, otherwise that would have been shit, wouldn't it?

Steven Bartlett 11:08 Mm-hmm. Was there, um, was there a point you got to where you kind of wanted your parents to separate? For... Because I- I fought it for a long time, and I was like, I remember crying my eyes out as a kid at the prospect of my parents separating.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 11:22 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 11:22 And then I remember I think maybe getting to like 14 or 15 where I was like, "I'd actually prefer you guys to not live in the same place."

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 11:27 Yeah. (laughs) Yeah. I think that's accurate to me, yeah. I- I've, I don't know if I'm just looking back and seeing it differently, but I don't think I gave a shit really when it happened. I think it- I'd all- I'd always see them break up and get back together-

Steven Bartlett 11:41 Mm-hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 11:41 ... and break up and get back together. And I think like I'd see my dad like stay up all night writing my mum love notes and stuff, and she'd wake up and not- not be arsed. Get- get rid of them. And I'd see that side of it. As a kid I don't think that should have been a side that I- I did see necessarily. Um, the- the rejection from- from her for someone that she's supposed to love. So when he- when he was gone, I was kind of like, "Yeah, go. Fly." (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 12:04 Mm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 12:04 Yeah. Yeah. And then he met his- his new partner who's lovely and then...... ever since then, that's been a little haven as well, just going around there and just venting and stuff, so.

Steven Bartlett 12:13 Did you ever figure out why, why she was the way she is? Did you ever try and figure it out? Was it like a generational thing that was-

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 12:19 (sighs)

Steven Bartlett 12:19 ... her parents or something, or something had happened to her?

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 12:21 I don't know because her mum, my nan, is the loveliest woman in the world. So I see my nan all the time. I've got her tattooed on me there.

Steven Bartlett 12:29 Hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 12:30 Um, so I don't know where it came from. I just think she's had, she just has, or she had, she might be completely different now, but she definitely just had issues and (inhales) I don't know whether that's drink, drugs, whatever that may be. Um, maybe I haven't given her enough time to actually think about why she's like that, really. I don't know.

Steven Bartlett 12:50 And she's never had help or anything like that?

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 12:51 Not that I, not as far as I know, no. Not as far as I know. But, uh, my life has been richer and mentally I've been a lot healthier with, without her in my life, which sounds horrible, um, but that's the, that's the truth of it.

Steven Bartlett 13:02 Mm-hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 13:02 Maybe one day we'll be able to sit down and talk it all, talk it all through.

Steven Bartlett 13:06 Mm-hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 13:06 But not, not today and probably not tomorrow.

Steven Bartlett 13:08 What about school? You in school, what were you like?

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 13:11 Uh, just a little... I was quite short actually, a little ginger, um, twat. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 13:16 Really?

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 13:17 I was all right. I was all right. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 13:18 (laughs) Really?

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 13:19 Uh, yeah, I just, I would just show off to the cool kids. I'd want to be, I'd want to be accepted a lot, so I'd show off to the cool kids. And I remember I used to always, like, say what I think were funny little one-liners and not get a laugh, and then once I put a ruler in a fan and it went (ruler vibrating sound effect) and I got the biggest laugh ever. And I thought, "What is this?" Right? (laughs) "What, what am I doing?" So I just became a bit of an idiot in the last few years and was just trying to make the, the cool kids laugh, so... There's a, there, there is a lot, lot of regret at, uh, for how I was at school as well, 'cause I wasn't a bully. I'd never say I was a bully, but I was a bit of a prick to teachers as well. And there was one teacher in particular, I'd just go in her class and I just wouldn't be arsed and I would just never listen, and she'd try... I wonder if in a, in a weird way, like, she'll stumble across this video and, uh, Ms. Chapman was her name, English teacher, and I'd love to reconnect with her and just apologize 'cause I, I mean, all, we all were, but that was no justification for me individually, but I was just a bit of a prick. I would never listen and I guess being ginger and ev- everyone's got things that people, like, get picked on for as a kid, but you, you try and, you try and fit in. So I, I, I tried to fit in by being the, the class clown, the funny one, and that's such a cliché and I hate when people say they were the class clown-

Steven Bartlett 14:29 Mm-hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 14:29 ... 'cause what that translates to is you were just a bit of a dickhead.

Steven Bartlett 14:32 Mm-hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 14:32 And that's, but that's what I was, so yeah, Ms. Chapman, if you're, if you're watching this, I apologize. You were great.

Steven Bartlett 14:39 I hope she is.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 14:40 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 14:40 I hope she is.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 14:41 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 14:41 U- And w- was it just because you were ginger though and you were being picked on a little bit, that you were trying to, like, find a way for them to appreciate you? Was that-

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 14:48 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 14:48 Do you think that was it?

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 14:49 Yeah. I discovered bleach (laughs) . I bleached my hair.

Steven Bartlett 14:52 Oh, yeah.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 14:52 And then... (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 14:53 I relaxed mine, so it was straight. No, I'm just, I'm just cool with this short afro thing.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 14:56 Right. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 14:57 Yeah.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 14:57 Well, yeah, I, yeah, I discovered bleach and then I remember just going to school the next day like that scene in Bruce Almighty where I'm like, "Look."

Steven Bartlett 15:03 There you go. (laughs)

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 15:04 Buds are flying on me. (laughs) And obviously I was a different person then, um, yeah, and then, and then... But then I was predicted all the top grades. Like, I was predicted, like, 12 GCSEs or whatever it was, like, top marks in everything and I just completely fucked it really and got, like, five, just scraped it, so, um, yeah, I was a bit, a bit of an idiot really. Only sort of took life serious after school when... Thank God I found YouTube because God knows what I'd be doing if I didn't.

Steven Bartlett 15:32 Was, was there a connection in, in your view when you look back between your home life and your school life? I think 'cause you said, was it year 10 or 11? I can't remember, that things kind of went downhill for you. I, I wondered if there was, there was a link at what, with, in your mind of what was going on at home and what, you know, your school performance declined?

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 15:48 Um, uh, I, I, I... Maybe, maybe. Maybe I could, I could sort of blame home life, but I, I, I, I probably wouldn't. I probably just say it was more a case of wanting to fit in, discovering at an early age I wanted to be the funny one. I've always been the, uh, center of attention as well, or wanted to be the center of attention, I should say. So as soon as I discovered, "Oh, self-deprecating works and putting myself down works, that gets a laugh, I'll do that," and then you're invincible then because if people-

Steven Bartlett 16:14 Mm-hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 16:14 ... are calling you a ginger twat, if you call yourself a ginger twat before them...

Steven Bartlett 16:20 Disarming.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 16:20 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 16:21 Mm-hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 16:21 Now I've got the cards.

Steven Bartlett 16:22 (laughs)

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 16:23 Yeah. Yeah, so I don't think the home life... The, the home life, the, my home life affected school probably the early years in, in high school because, like, not to go into too much detail but, like, things would happen at home and I'd have, like, a mark on my face, like from someone that shouldn't have given me that mark and I'd go to school and say, "The cat done it," and I didn't have a cat. (laughs) So, so it's like that real- I think that really affected me. There's little things as well, like, I remember, like, I had these ornaments, Snow White and the Seven Dwarves. Now, I don't think I've even seen the film but I loved these ornaments and then I'd done something at home that was naughty or something, stayed up too late or played the PlayStation too much and then someone came in and threw the, threw the shelf down and smashed those ornaments and I remember as the shelf was on the floor, I remember go, think... I was only a kid. I was probably like 10, right, and the shelf was on the floor, there's a big standing bookshelf and I was, I, I remember thinking, "Please, please don't say those ornaments are broke." I, I loved them for some reason and I remember lifting it up and they were all broke and that was the moment where I was kind of like, "I fucking hate this shit." So I remember going to school and having to deal with stuff like that. Um, but in the, in the later years when I kind of had YouTube and found my feet a little bit more and who I wanted to be, I found it a bit easier even if I was pissing the grades up the wall, so to speak.

Steven Bartlett 17:44 Mm-hmm. Do you ever worry, 'cause I, I, something I, as I've gotten older, I think as we get older, sometimes the, like, some of the earlier things we learnt about love or relationships or how you treat people or how you respond or your temper, they, they can sometimes, um, surface and you... Uh, 'cause I'd have moments where I'd see parts of my parents in myself that I maybe didn't love. Have you ever got, uh, seen glimmers of that home life that in you think, in yourself when you go, "Fuck, I don't want to be that person"?

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 18:12 That's, that's such an amazing question, that is.

Steven Bartlett 18:14 Mm-hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 18:14 Like, that's so...... that, me, me and my sister have discussed this as well because I have, I have... Because I, 'cause I separated from my mum, so to speak, at quite an, quite an early age, just after s- after school, I think I've lost all of th- her ch- her traits that I had in me because they were such negatives to me. I really noticed them. Like, her biggest negatives, like, stood out like a sore thumb, so I actively had to not take them on myself. Um, whereas my sister, she had a f- she had quite a few of her ne- her... M- my mum's negative, um, traits. And we've spoken about this now as adults and she's like, "Yeah, I have to actively, like... Whenever I think like Mum would think or do something Mum would do, have to try and get rid of it." I have a lot of my... (smacks lips) I give my dad all the credit. I have so... A, a lot of how I am is because of my dad, but I also have my dad's negative traits as well, which I think he would say. And m- and my dad, not so much now, but especially after what I told you about his upbringing, he... Anger was his thing. So... And I have, I have that. Not... Luckily, I have it under control. It's never gonna affect anyone else or hurt anyone else. But, like, for example, if I'm editing and the software shuts down, I'm like, "Fuck!" Like, I'm re- like, instantly, I'm so angry inside and Fiona will have to be like, "Jack, just chill the fuck out. Like, this isn't that deep." And then I'm like, "Okay, as long as I remember where I got this from and what... If I can pinpoint it on something, I'm a lot, I'm a lot better." Um, luckily, that's never got me in, into any trouble. If, if I'm out and someone says anything to me, I, I don't get that. I get it through... Over trivial th- sort of, like, trivial things.

Steven Bartlett 19:48 Right, right, right.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 19:49 But yeah, um, I definitely do have, have some negative, uh, traits about me from my parents.

Steven Bartlett 19:54 Have you ever gone to, like, therapy or spoken to anybody to try and understand these patterns or to spot them or anything? Or is it just from, like, self-reflection that you've noticed...

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 20:02 Um, I did, I did anger management classes at school.

Steven Bartlett 20:05 Oh, really?

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 20:05 Yeah. Um, but for... (laughs) They put me in them for something I didn't do. I remember walking in the library once and I was at the bottom (laughs) of these stairs and this guy just gets thrown down the stairs at my feet and the teacher's come in and seen it and I'd had to do 12 weeks anger... I swear to-

Steven Bartlett 20:22 (laughs)

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 20:22 I prom- I promise you. I done a lot of, like, mad shit at school, but that was not one of them.

Steven Bartlett 20:27 (laughs)

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 20:27 I didn't know how I could throw him and then be down there before him. He was on my feet, so it didn't make sense. Um, so yeah, I remember doing 12 or six weeks anger management. Um, but I kind of needed them. So even though I didn't actually throw him-

Steven Bartlett 20:38 (laughs)

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 20:39 ... down the stairs, I probably would have been the guy to maybe do that one day had I not had them.

Steven Bartlett 20:43 Hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 20:43 I can't remember anything we spoke about in those lessons. But yeah, that's the only time I've really debated it.

Steven Bartlett 20:49 Does that... Does it... Does it not ever crop up in, in your professional work? Like, anger issues with, uh, like, colleagues or with, I don't know, with people?

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 21:00 No, I think, I think I've... Over the years, I've mellowed out so much. I've, I think I've matured so much as well. And I think that shines through in, like, my old, kind of, like, main channel content because I made a name for myself on YouTube by being kind of like the anti-YouTuber.

Steven Bartlett 21:15 Yeah.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 21:15 And, like, slagging off other YouTubers and... But I, I remember turning on the camera and putting on such a fake anger then 'cause I was talking about things I didn't care about.

Steven Bartlett 21:23 Mm-hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 21:24 "Oh, Oli White's got some new 30 pound T-shirts. Let's moan about that." Mainly because I knew I'd get a million views from it, not that I cared. So I got really good at turning the camera on and putting this kind of, like, faux, like, anger, like fake an- Like, I guess because I was pretending to be angry all the time-

Steven Bartlett 21:40 Mm-hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 21:41 ... I was very alert when I actually was angry and I could keep that, keep that under control, so.

Steven Bartlett 21:46 Do you regret any of those videos as you've matured?

Steven Bartlett 21:48 You say you've mellowed out and matured now and you, and you even spot that you were doing them from, like, a, not an authentic place, right? Do you regret them?

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 21:55 Uh, there's some I definitely do regret, yeah. The m- the majority I'd say no. Um, obviously, we, we, we both know that I'm a big fan of Ricky Gervais.

Steven Bartlett 22:03 Yeah.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 22:03 And he always... One of his mantras is there needs to be a why in comedy. Why are you doing something? If you're targeting someone, why are you doing it? Like... Um, and a lot of my early main channel content, like, for anyone who doesn't know, like, I made a video reacting to, um, Zoella's advent calendar. She-

Steven Bartlett 22:21 Everybody knows. (laughs)

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 22:22 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 22:22 It's got, like, six million views, isn't it?

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 22:24 Yeah. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 22:24 Yeah. Crazy.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 22:24 It did all right. That changed the game for me in terms of YouTube. I was, I was going to quit. The, the, the upload before that, I was gonna quit. And then I uploaded that video and it changed the game. But the... Like, when I look back on videos like that, I, I have no regrets because it was funny. It... The comedy almost, like, it wrote itself. Like, there was a reason why I was doing it. It was, it was a sketch. That's all it was.

Steven Bartlett 22:44 Mm-hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 22:44 But there would be times when I fell into the trap of like, "Okay, people know JackMate for being the guy to slag stuff off and that's funny," whatever, and then I'd find a few things that naturally did piss me off and I could draw humor from it. And then when the content dried up, it was kind of like, "Well, I've now got to go and look for someone who's doing something wrong and become this kind of, like, sort of white knight of, of the internet sort of thing."

Steven Bartlett 23:11 Hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 23:11 And it was like, "That's never who I was." So I did, I, I did my first ever video with Ricky Gervais and, and, and that was the biggest moment ever for me. And then I remember uploading the video and the interview was brilliant and the top comment was, "This is good, Jack, but Oli White's released some new T-shirts that you haven't spoken about." And I thought, "Fuck me. So I've got to now... That's what you want from me, is that..."

Steven Bartlett 23:34 Hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 23:34 So then I'd go, I'd then go out of my way to go, "Okay, Zoella in the title, bangs views. What is she up to? Oh, she's released a book." Now, that book, there was nothing wrong with that book. But I'm trying, I'm tr- actively trying to pick flaws in it that I can dissect on my channel.

Steven Bartlett 23:51 Hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 23:51 And it's like, there, that's kind of like the stuff I, I, I regret. I remember KSI and Joe Weller, they did their... When I was trying to be edgy boy, edgy boy JackMate, they did their first press conference for their fight and that was in, in Manchester I think it was. And I... And, and 'cause I was the black sheep of YouTube, I would never get invited to them.

Steven Bartlett 24:08 Mm-hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 24:08 So therefore, by default, the jealousy would take over and I'd be like, "This is shit. I want nothing to do with it." Where deep down, I knew that I wanted something to do with that. That whole YouTube boxing scene, in fact, I'm a boxing fan, I'm a YouTube fan-

Steven Bartlett 24:18 Mm-hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 24:18 ... so why would that not appeal to me? Um, and they did a, they did a press conference-And JJ, he, um, he said something about Joe Weller's medication, which I don't agree with, but in the context of a press conference, you say anything you can to get the upper hand.

Steven Bartlett 24:32 Hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 24:32 And I remember just turning on my camera straight away. I was like, "KSI needs to be canceled, blah, blah, blah." 'Cause I knew it would bang views. But JJ's a hero of mine, as I'm sure he is to-

Steven Bartlett 24:40 Mm-hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 24:40 ... any YouTuber, any content creator now.

Steven Bartlett 24:42 Mm-hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 24:43 Joe Weller, I was a, uh, I, I used to watch every single one of his videos. I, I love Joe Weller, so they're the ones I regret when I wasn't be o- being authentic and not even really being funny, just actually trying to go in on someone 'cause I wanted that check at the end of the e- the ad revenue to be higher that month.

Steven Bartlett 25:00 When you were doing this, when you s- J- JJ mentioned the medication thing, you hit record.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 25:05 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 25:05 Was it like, "I can make some money here-"

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 25:07 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 25:07 ... or was it, "I can make some money and get attention"?

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 25:10 Probably a bit of both.

Steven Bartlett 25:11 Both?

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 25:12 Yeah. Because they go hand in hand, don't they? Especially o- especially on YouTube, so probably a bit of both. Um-

Steven Bartlett 25:19 It's mad that you're so self-aware about this, like, and you're just like, you're really good at diagnosing exactly why you did it from, like, a psychological incentive perspective. You're like, "I wanted this, so I did this. I wasn't true to myself. I did it." And it- and that suggests like you've done a lot of kind of reflecting and soul-searching and maturing in what is actually a very short space of time.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 25:38 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 25:39 'Cause this was only ... This is not, you know, a lifetime. This is not a decade ago.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 25:42 That video was probably four and a half, five years ago-

Steven Bartlett 25:45 Yeah.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 25:45 ... tops.

Steven Bartlett 25:46 Yeah.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 25:47 Yeah. It's 'cause it was ... I, I, I realized a couple of years ago that wasn't who I wanted to be. I was probably ... I, I, I, I recently did a brand trip with Calfreezy-

Steven Bartlett 25:55 Yeah.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 25:55 ... and, and The Burnt, um, The Burnt Chip. And I was speaking to them out one night, and I'd never done a trip with another YouTuber. I was always ... YouTubers are very cliquey, and they're all in their groups. Um, and I was always on the outside of that. I was always this boy from Norwich-

Steven Bartlett 26:10 Mm-hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 26:10 ... just have my normal mates, and they surround themselves with YouTubers. And I remember saying to them one night, I think the main reason why I used to go for them is because I wanted to be them. I, I, I, I'm, I'm one of the OGs, I really am. I've been doing YouTube probably around the s- the s- to the, the same month that JJ uploaded his first one. Like, we would've been there at the start, and Calfreezy, Callux, all of these lads, uh, Miniminter, and I, and I probably ... I see them become a collective, and I was like, "Why am I not part of that?" Like, and now I don't give a shit. I'm so happy and content with where I'm at, and I've built my podcast now and ...

Steven Bartlett 26:45 Mm-hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 26:45 But, but as a k- as a kid, as a, e- even as an 18, 19-year-old young man grow- growing up seeing that, feeling left out, it probably goes back to how I was at school as well. I thought, okay, if, if, if you, if you can't join them, slag 'em off.

Steven Bartlett 27:00 Mm-hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 27:00 Become the Darth Vader of YouTube so to speak. (laughs) Um, yeah, and then in recent years, people started to discover that, other people that I really respected like WillNE, the people on You- ... And then even though Will was my friend, like, he still is my friend, like, he'd call me out publicly when I'd be slagging someone off and go, "Have a day off, mate." And I would be so angry because, because it was accurate. And I'm like, I'm sat there like-

Steven Bartlett 27:21 (laughs)

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 27:21 ... "You're so right," and I'd go, "No, I'm not bothered, mate." Like that kind of-

Steven Bartlett 27:25 Hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 27:25 ... that kind of thing, so yeah. Yeah, I was speaking to Calfreezy about that, and yeah. I've got a lot, I've got nothing but respect for him, for him now. (page turns)

Steven Bartlett 27:34 My girlfriend came upstairs yesterday when I was having a shower, and she said to me that she tried the Huel protein shake, which lives on my fridge over there, and she said it's amazing. Low calories, you get your 20-odd grams of protein, you get your 26 vitamins and minerals, and it's nutritionally complete. In the protein space, there's lots of things, but it's hard to find something that is nice, especially when consumed just with water, and that is nutritionally complete and that has about 100 gr- calories in total, while also giving you your 20 grams of protein. If you haven't tried the Huel protein product, do give it a try. The salted caramel one, if you put some ice cubes in it, and you put it in a blender, and you try it, is as good as pretty much any milkshake on the market, just mixed with water. It's been a game changer for me because I'm trying to drop my calorie intake, and I'm trying to be a little bit more healthy with my diet. So this is where Huel fits in my life. Thank you, Huel, for making a product that I actually like. The salted caramel is my favorite. I've got the banana one here, which is the one my girlfriend likes, but for me, salted caramel is the one. (page turns) You not only did the whole YouTube thing, but you also provided this, like, online commentary almost constantly about how you were feeling about it. So you were one of the, the f- sort of rare YouTubers that, like, in real time would say, "I've lost motivation for this. I'm gonna try and find my motivation for this. I've lost motivation for doing this kind of thing. I'm doing it." You know what I mean? And you were very open, so even for me, I, as I logged into Twitter, I could kind of see where you were on this journey.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 28:55 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 28:56 And obviously I've seen that change a lot with the, the whole podcast and the Spotify thing, which feels like you've really found something that you do find, like, really enjoyable.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 29:02 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 29:03 But with your main channel, I watched you go through these waves of enjoyment and then, uh, seeing you say, "Right, I'm gonna try and commit to it now," and then that didn't really work, and then ... So tell me about that journey with YouTube and, and what you learned about yourself from that.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 29:16 Oh, God, it's really good questions. It's got to be said. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 29:19 (laughs)

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 29:19 Like, wait till you come-

Steven Bartlett 29:21 Well, no, no, I-

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 29:21 ... on my podcast and I ask you your favorite sandwich. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 29:23 I, I, I genuinely have watched it, and I ... And it's this is why I kept trying to, you know, message you about, "Come on my podcast."

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 29:27 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 29:27 Because that, watching that journey taught me so many things, and it really reconfirmed a lot about- for me that I'd been reading about in psychology about what keeps people motivated and when they're not doing things that are in line with who they are or they're doing it for a check-

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 29:40 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 29:40 ... I remember reading this study which said if you love doing something and then they pay you to do the exact same thing, you lose your motivation. So the minute it goes from being a hobby I'm doing for the love of it to a hobby-

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 29:53 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 29:54 ... that I love doing but now someone is paying me for, there's this weird thing that happens in the mind where people lose motivation for the exact same thing. And I-

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 30:02 Go- go- going off that, and I'm not sure if this answers your question, but I found this really interesting. I couldn't really work it out myself. I spent my whole YouTube kind of main channel era, like, just saving up all my money, just saving up all my money. Like, the only thing I was ... I had the blinkers on. I was like, "Buy a house. Buy a house. Buy a house. Buy a house." And last May, I paid for my house and bought it outright.

Steven Bartlett 30:28 Right.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 30:28 And-... that was the last time, bar one, that was the last time I uploaded.

Steven Bartlett 30:34 Really?

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 30:34 Yeah. Yeah. It, it was like... It's called a rival fallacy, I think.

Steven Bartlett 30:39 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 30:39 And Tyson Fury has, ha- had it about, um, when he beat Klitschko and became the heavyweight champion of the world, the next day he was depressed.

Steven Bartlett 30:46 Israël Adesanya said that yesterday and said the same thing.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 30:48 Really?

Steven Bartlett 30:48 He said, "The day after I won the UFC title, I went to my, uh, hotel room, I was depressed."

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 30:51 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 30:51 I said it last night on stage at the Palladium, I said, "80% of Olympians, when they get the gold medal, they've, they report depressive symptoms."

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 30:57 Yeah. It was the most proud- proudest I've ever been over a- anything. And paid, paid it off, and then me and my partner, Fiona, we, we moved in in September, and I just... I remember just, I was drunk one night, and I remember just walking around my house when Fiona was asleep, and I just... (exhales) I just didn't care for the, for where I was. Like, I... It's a beautiful house, and I'm so lucky, and it's everything I'd worked for. But it was like, "What do I do now then?" Like, "What do I... W- where... Like, what? I'll sit on my sofa or go in, go in my kitchen." Like, I just know, I just... I'm not any happier than when I was renting or-

Steven Bartlett 31:37 Hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 31:37 ... the... Like, it, it was, it was, it was weird, so.

Steven Bartlett 31:41 Have you figured out why you felt that way?

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 31:43 No, I, no. I, I f- nah. I don't know. I don't know. It's, it's because, it's because the journey is way more fun than-

Steven Bartlett 31:49 Amen.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 31:50 ... yeah, than, than, than the arrival. That-

Steven Bartlett 31:53 Mm-hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 31:53 It, it just, it just is. The, uh, s- the, the most fun I've ever had is probably the first time I got a viral video, or the first time I got to present for this company, or-

Steven Bartlett 32:03 Mm-hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 32:03 ... first time I got a brand deal, do all the stereotypical YouTuber things, the first time-

Steven Bartlett 32:07 Mm-hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 32:07 ... I felt like a YouTuber. They, they're the best moments. And it... I- I- I'm not c- I'm not complaining. I'm not sitting here and whining, and I'm so blessed and so lucky and... (inhales) Yeah. It's, it is a, it is a tough one. It's a tough one. But, like, I did y- it, my, my kind of, like, soundbite that I always sort of say is, I did YouTube for seven years without earning a penny.

Steven Bartlett 32:28 Mm-hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 32:29 And then it... And then once the Zoella video p- kicked off, and the ad revenue went up, and I earned money I would never, I could never dream of earning, that, that was no more fun than when I was doing it for, for free.

Steven Bartlett 32:42 And it's funny because the, the... I guess, the, the liberating thing to know is that everyone I've sat here with says the same thing.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 32:48 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 32:48 So it's not a you thing-

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 32:49 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 32:49 ... it's a human thing. And so you go, "Okay, if it's a human thing, what does that mean and why is that?" One of the things, 'cause I was writing my show for the Palladium, I, I encountered, was that the reason why we're here is because our ancestors struggled forward, and their desire to keep striving is the reason they built these empires and overcame. So, I say to the crowd, I say, "Is it conceivable that they left a message within our genetic code that says, 'You too shall struggle forward'?" And they've kind of, like, predisposed us to, like, forward motion. And also this other point, like, the, our ancestors are ancestors that had a, a, a real sense of wha- really liked f- forward motion, struggle, and purpose, were the ones that survived and passed on their genes to us. So we're, we've, we've inherited this real desire to have forward motion and a sense of purpose. And one of the things they say is causing the life expectancy to decline in the Western world is specifically they, they, they point at men and say there's a epidemic of purposelessness as the world is starting to change, and AI and things like this are... I'm pointing at the little robot that's moving, moving at the round- the room o- on its own. Are taking purpose from people, and so people are now becoming more addicted and depressed, and they're... For their, suicide has become the single killer, biggest killer of men under the age of 45, which has caused the life expectancy to decline for two years in a row. And it's because of, they think, this epidemic of purposelessness. So when you lose your sense of purpose, because you reached the, the, the point you were aiming for, that can be so disorientating and confusing, as it was for me at 25 when someone came along and said, "We'll buy a social chain off you for 50 million." And I go home and I look at the, the mansion on Rightmove and the Lamborghini on Autotrader, and I feel totally fucking lost.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 34:20 I com- I completely, I completely agree.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 34:23 Like, I, I, I wouldn't change it for the world, it's everything I've, I've always, always wanted. But, like... 'Cause, 'cause I, I think, I think money does, money does buy happiness. And I think if people say otherwise, I think they're t- talking shit. Like, uh, in, in a way, like... Well, I, well, maybe I should rephrase that to, to money buys freedom.

Steven Bartlett 34:43 Yeah.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 34:44 And freedom is, is-

Steven Bartlett 34:45 Happiness, yeah.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 34:45 ... is, is happiness. And that's what, what I have now. I have... I can do what I want when I want. The best feeling I, I h- I get now as a 28-year-old, soon to be 29-year-old, is when I sort my family out.

Steven Bartlett 34:58 Hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 34:58 And... Like, my granddaddy's still working. He's 20... Uh, he's 70, um, 77. 20, imagine that? He wishes.

Steven Bartlett 35:05 (laughs) 20 (laughs) .

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 35:06 (laughs) Yeah. He's 70, he's 77, and he's a big fat lump from Norfolk, and he still does building and demolition and walks on roofs and stuff, and he's not got a penny. And then, like, I went to see his parents' grave with him in February, um, last year. And, uh, he goes there every week, puts new flowers on, he's been doing it for like 50 years. And it's like... And I could see how... He was e- he was wearing these beat-up boots and this disgusting, tattered jacket. And I just went home, and I just got his bank card without him knowing from his side of his car where his, w- k- k- handbrake is. And I got his bank, and I just transferred him 5,000 pounds. And for me, that was like, that was just everything. That was like, that was, uh... Everything I'd worked for, was justified in that moment. And I got more out of that than I did when I bought my house. And, like, just, uh, little things. Like my sister's type one diabetic, so she has like a thing in her arm that constantly pricks her and finds her, her levels, and-

Steven Bartlett 36:00 Mm-hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 36:00 ... I can, I can pay for that shit. And yet last night, my dog died, and... The dog that I'd had for 18 years. Um, and, uh, lit- literally, like, found out just before I went to sleep last night. And it's little things like this that might not seem like a lot, but it was the first time I'd spoke to my mum in ages, and she was like, "Oh yeah, we're gonna get Diddy's ashes, cost 200 pound." There's the 200 pounds. So it's like, that kind of shit is, like, why I owe everything to this online world, and people that have given up their time to watch me and brands that have trusted me and stuff. And yeah, that's the best feeling.

Steven Bartlett 36:33 I think you nailed it when you said that. Um, sorry about your dog, by the way. I have a dog-

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 36:36 Yeah (laughs) .

Steven Bartlett 36:36 ... and I really, that really... I can't imagine-

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 36:39 It's shit, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 36:39 It's really shit. Even the thought of it is just-

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 36:42 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 36:42 ... terrifying.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 36:42 She was 18 years and four months, so she's quite old.

Steven Bartlett 36:45 Mm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 36:45 But when they get to that age, you just assume that they're always gonna crack on. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 36:49 Yeah, yeah.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 36:49 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 36:50 Um, no, you, I think you nailed it when you said that freedom is the thing that ultimately does make you happier. Because I remember not having, I remember getting the bailiff letters and then not being, not knowing how I was gonna eat, or knowing that the, the landlord was gonna come and ask me why I hadn't paid the rent in four months and the pressure that of con- that, like weighing on me. And the freedom of just like not looking at how much things cost when you go into Topman, "I wanna buy one of those T-shirts."

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 37:10 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 37:11 That kind of thing or where you wanna go somewhere. So freedom definitely makes you happier. But obviously, at this point, I've come to realize that if you gave me more money, the, the fundamental happiness levers of my life won't change. Like, you're right, like my sister's been a little bit sick recently.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 37:26 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 37:26 She, she, um, um, and being able to help her, I said to my team this week, I was like, "That's the moment where I see the point of this." Just being able to like pay the hospital or like get her checked, get ha- get her proper healthcare, those kind of things.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 37:39 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 37:39 Um, my parents got broken into. Being able to buy them, like new locks for their doors so that they wouldn't get broken into again is, is one of those things where you go, "That's what this is for."

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 37:47 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 37:47 That's what's, that's, that was the feeling.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 37:49 Yeah. And it, it makes it all worthwhile, doesn't it?

Steven Bartlett 37:51 Completely.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 37:51 Do you, do you ever feel (laughs) again, name drop, but I spoke to Gervais about this 'cause I was really-

Steven Bartlett 37:58 Uh-huh.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 37:58 ... I was really... Something that plagues me, whether it's right or wrong, is I feel guilty about having money. I feel, I feel this sense of guilt where it's like, and I don't have cr- I don't have crazy money. Like, I've-

Steven Bartlett 38:12 Mm-hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 38:12 My situation is I paid off my house, I have a bit more in the bank. Like that's what it is. But I, uh, because, uh, because of my upbringing and where I'm from, and I see my dad wake up at 5:00 AM every morning, go work in a factory for 12 hours, and then still struggle to buy Christmas presents. And then I'm like you just said, I go online. I don't look at the price of things anymore.

Steven Bartlett 38:30 Mm-hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 38:30 I, I just buy it. And then it's like, "What? Like this doesn't make sense." I'll tell you a quick story. Three, f- four years ago, my dad's dad, my granddad, he passed away. He, he got, um, bone cancer or some kind of shit cancer. (laughs) They're all shit, I guess.

Steven Bartlett 38:46 (laughs)

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 38:46 And, um, he, I went to his funeral, went to the wake, had a few jars, went back home, went on a night out, and I was in the place called The Waterfront in Norwich, which is where I al- always, I always go. Uh, I go there 'cause I'm comfortable 'cause everyone knows me there now, so I don't get the dickheads come over and whatever. But, so they've, if, if Jackmate's in there, they've already seen Jackmate 100 times, so it doesn't matter. And this guy ca- and I was, I was gone and I was not in a good place. And this guy came up to me and said, I'd never met him before, and he asked me how much I earn from YouTube. And I think that's such a rude question.

Steven Bartlett 39:20 Mm-hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 39:20 But I can understand the intrigue in it because it's a world that people just don't know. It's a new world. I barely know it. And, um, he asked me and I just told him for the first time ever. I was like, "This is what I earn." I said, "What about you? What do you earn?" And he told me and it was like 10, 10% of what I earn. And I said, "And what do you do?" He said, "I work in the cancer ward at the hospital." And I was just like, and I weren't saying, "What do you do?" to be rude.

Steven Bartlett 39:44 Mm-hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 39:44 I was just f- f- throwing that back at him. And I remember just thinking, pfff, it just hit me, just got a lump in my throat and I thought, "Why, why, do I, do I deserve this, what I have? When there's these people that are like, they're the fucking angels. They're the ones walk- walking around doing that." Like I just, yeah, I struggled to then wrap my head around why a brand would pay me 30K to do a video. Like it doesn't-

Steven Bartlett 40:10 Hm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 40:10 ... it do- to me it, it's weird. So I guess you could argue, why don't you give it all to charity? Well, n- I'm not gonna do that, but I will give it all to my fucking family.

Steven Bartlett 40:19 Mm-hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 40:19 And I will give it all to my fucking kids, and that's what makes me proud.

Steven Bartlett 40:23 Is there a, this is like a wider point about imposter syndrome.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 40:26 Is it? (sighs)

Steven Bartlett 40:28 I, I, I, I think so because, um, because I've never struggled with the idea that I didn't deserve what I created. And I think, so I'm asking myself why you would really struggle with that. Why you might struggle with the thought that you are making money and other people are potentially having to... 'Cause I, I mean, it's a reality of the world. Even if you go back to where I was born in Africa, people in the fields for 18 hours a day picking tea leaves in the baking sun get paid nothing. And in the Western world, some people can just play around on their computer and make billions-

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 41:01 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 41:02 ... from the s- from the stock market or the markets or something.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 41:04 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 41:04 But for some reason you struggle, you struggle with this and other symptoms of imposter syndrome from what I've read in-

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 41:11 May- maybe it's, (sighs) 'cause I think I spoke positively about YouTubers and my peers and stuff, but there's still a lot of them that are pricks. Like, and, and, and, and, and, and, and growing up and seeing, like I've used to go to YouTube events and see my YouTube heroes and they'd come over, "How many subscribers you got?" It's the first thing they'd say, "How many subscribers you got? My name's Jack. Nice to meet you, dickhead." (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 41:34 Mm-hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 41:35 Like so, so I guess, I guess maybe it's connecting that. I'm now a YouTuber. I'm now, I, I now make my money in the same way that Alfie Deyes made, made his money, Oli White makes his money. I'm that guy. And because I've seen a lot of YouTubers take it for granted and just assume that that's their right to have these things, it m- that's maybe where I get my guilt from. I never wanna lose, lose touch of that. And-

Steven Bartlett 41:59 And you've really come from a working class like household-

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 42:02 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 42:02 ... where you've watched your dad work really, really hard and everyone around you it sounds like work really, really hard wherever you've looked.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 42:07 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 42:08 And it's almost like you found a bit of a cheat code or y- you know.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 42:10 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 42:11 You might feel like life has given you, I don't know, but you've, you earned it. I mean, you bought the whiteboard.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 42:15 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 42:16 Right?

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 42:17 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 42:17 This was intentional.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 42:18 Yeah. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 42:20 The whiteboard shows that you b- you know, you planned it out.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 42:22 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 42:23 Obviously, moments of luck for all of us appear when we, we start, we carry on carrying on. But you've realized that you've earned it, right?

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 42:33 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 42:34 You do... You hesitated.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 42:35 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 42:35 You don't, do you?

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 42:37 I, I, (sighs) I do and I, uh, but not to the level...... in which I've got to now, not to, like, yeah, I get, I, I guess, I guess, I, I, I have, I have, I have a talent. I can do... I'm a personable person. I can-

Steven Bartlett 42:52 Hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 42:53 ... make people laugh, but yeah, I don't, um, I don't know. I, I don't, I really don't know how to answer it. I get... I've thought about it a lot. I've racked my brains a lot about this.

Steven Bartlett 43:01 And what does your brain say to you when you rack your brain?

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 43:03 Don't know. It's just may- may- may- maybe I don't. But then, like, it's, it's, it's cool things like this, like Stevie White, my, my podcast co-host, who's working in Boots. Nothing wrong with that, it's a respectable job, um, just a nine-to-five. He didn't particularly enjoy it. Um, so I call him up one day and say, "Let's do a podcast." A year later he's interviewing Ricky Gervais, Johnny Knoxville, Rob Brydon, he's left his job, he's doing it full time. Fiona, my partner, she was working at a supermarket. I was telling her for years, "Bin it off. I'll teach you how to edit. You become my editor." Y- couple of years go by, she bins it off, she's now working for me. There's a few examples of people in my life that can now have an easier life-

Steven Bartlett 43:43 Hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 43:44 ... because of the foundations that I put in seven years ago.

Steven Bartlett 43:47 Hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 43:48 That's, that's what I love. And that's when I'm like, I, I, I des- I deserve this and the people around me deserve it. Does that make sense?

Steven Bartlett 43:58 Of course it does. Once again, you've said that, like, the most fulfilling thing for you is helping others, right?

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 44:01 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 44:02 You said that about your family-

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 44:03 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 44:03 ... with your money and now also for professionally, it's like giving those people opportunities to live a better life.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 44:09 Yeah, we're just a fucking team.

Steven Bartlett 44:11 Yeah.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 44:11 We're just a team. They help me as well. It's not just me going, "Look, I can help you do this."

Steven Bartlett 44:15 Hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 44:15 I showed them that there's a, there's a different world out there, 'cause people like us, we've been in this world for so long-

Steven Bartlett 44:20 Mm-hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 44:20 ... we see the opportunities, but they probably didn't. So yeah, I wouldn't be able to do what I do without tho- that, that kind of, the, the team in the, in the background or sometimes in the foreground with people like Stevie. But yeah, um, that's a fucking cool feeling.

Steven Bartlett 44:35 Everybody, um, everybody, it sounds like,

Steven Bartlett 44:37 it feels like everybody that's not a YouTuber, and I say everybody, uh, 'cause there's gonna be people listening that are driving up and down the country right now as they're listening to this or, you know, doing the dishes or whatever and perfectly happy with whatever they're doing. But a lot of young people want to be YouTubers.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 44:49 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 44:49 And the thought that you had this, like, big main channel-

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 44:52 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 44:52 ... with like... How many subs has your main channel got now? Is it like 1.4 or something?

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 44:55 Yeah, 1.4 mil, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 44:56 Yeah. Um, (clears throat) th- that you would like lose motivation to do it-

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 45:01 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 45:01 ... is quite a difficult concept to understand for a lot of people. You have 1.4 million people that have subscribed to get videos from you and you're like, "Can't be arsed."

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 45:10 Yeah. It's not so much can't be arsed, it's just, it's not me. It's just, it's just not me anymore. It's people... I, I'd open up my inbox and people would be emailing me about some YouTuber from France who has sold a pen for a bit too much money and I need to be the guy that calls them out, and it was just like, I was never, I was never really this guy. So yeah, I, I guess, I guess I just transferred all that energy that I was putting into the main channel into the podcast, and that's where my passion is now. And doing stuff like this-

Steven Bartlett 45:39 Hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 45:39 ... getting to sit here, chat to you and... Yeah, that's... I, I, I get what you mean. Like, if you'd have asked me two years ago, "Right, am I just gonna leave a channel with 1.4 million subscribers stagnant?" I would, I'd call you all the names under the sun.

Steven Bartlett 45:51 Hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 45:51 I'd be like, "You're an, you're an idiot. Of course I'm not gonna do that." But it seems that I have done it. I'll use it every now and then. Like in January, I uploaded a video about Boris Johnson.

Steven Bartlett 45:59 Hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 45:59 And-

Steven Bartlett 45:59 I saw a dope video.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 46:00 Thank you.

Steven Bartlett 46:00 I saw it all over the newspapers. Really, really cool video.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 46:02 Thank you.

Steven Bartlett 46:02 Like creatively, culturally relevant. It really like hit, it was fast.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 46:07 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 46:07 You were very quick to act on that moment, so it was, uh... That, I guess, I guess for you probably, is that how you- you're seeing the use of your YouTube, your main channel now? Like, when you genuinely feel you want to do something-

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 46:17 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 46:17 ... yeah.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 46:17 Yeah. When, like, wha- when the, the why is there, when there's a clear and obvious why-

Steven Bartlett 46:22 Mm-hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 46:23 ... I'll, I'll, I'll do it. Um, and not just for a quick buck now. I'm very thankful I don't need to do them anymore.

Steven Bartlett 46:31 It's hard to sustain something when it's not in line with who you truly are, isn't it?

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 46:34 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 46:34 It's hard to like sustain it for a long period of time. In the short term, you could probably do it, but it tends to be the case when I say it with people that, at any point in their lives where they were living outside of themselves, like living someone else's life or kinda like... Ferne Cotton said it, like, she had to like go on radio and be this happy da da da da da and, um, almost play a character. Jake Humphrey said it to me as well, like, b- because he was a presenter. Having to kind of like put on the mask, eventually it becomes a really heavy mask to, to wear.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 47:01 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 47:01 And they all, uh, eventually it seems, kind of choose to throw it away and just rebound, and that seems similar to what you're saying.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 47:08 100%, yeah. I, I, I told this story last night to someone, I can't remember... I, I used to turn the camera on and I used to go... I'd be sat there and I'd turn the camera on and I'd go, "Right guys, hello, it's me, Jack May oh, Zoella, oh, what a dickhead, oh, she's done this, done that." Turn the camera off. Just sit there. And I couldn't tell you anything I'd just said in the last 20 minutes. I'm just looking down at my script. "She said this in her book about... How out of touch is this?" And it would just be like, right, that's the ad revenue sorted for the month. Fi, let's go to Wetherspoons (laughs) .

Steven Bartlett 47:43 Fuck, man.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 47:43 Yeah. So it was like, you c- you can only do that for so long before you just hate yourself (laughs) . There is an element of that in me, like that, that, that, the advent calendar video. Like, I've done some videos I'm really proud of, funny videos when, when it was, when it was justified. But there's also ones it's not so much. I've been doing recent sort of commentary videos over the last two years. My, my recent ones are like videos I've been doing with my friend Alfie Indra, who's a mu- musician. We've been like sort of taking ki- kind of comical pokes at people like, um, Jeremy Lynch from the F2 and people like that.

Steven Bartlett 48:15 Oh, yeah.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 48:15 And, and I st-

Steven Bartlett 48:16 People think I'm Jeremy Lynch all the fucking time.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 48:17 Oh, really? You do... (laughs) You don't wanna be, you don't wanna be that guy (laughs) . You can be Billy, be the other one, he seems all right. But, um, but the thing with those videos, I'm really proud of them still. And I guess you could argue, well you're that same kind of like scathing, um, commentator. Yeah, but they, I, I believe that, that those people I'm going for there are justified. Zoella, not so much. Let her crack on. No?

Steven Bartlett 48:43 What would you say to her if she was here? Have you ever met her?

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 48:45 Never met her. I don't think she wants to meet me (laughs) . (laughs) That'd be an awkward one, wouldn't it?

Steven Bartlett 48:55 Is there like ... Is there any

Steven Bartlett 48:57 ... Because that video did really well.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 48:58 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 48:59 And I think if a video about me had gotten six million views, um, I think I'd have a pretty shitty month. I was gonna say week, but I think it'd last longer, 'cause that video did really, really well.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 49:09 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 49:09 I remember like sometimes someone would write like an article about me and I'd try and be this tough guy. I'm like, "I don't give a fuck. Whatever, whatever."

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 49:14 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 49:15 But I'm still, at like 1:00 AM in the morning, it'll like ... It, it's hard to get it out of my mind.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 49:19 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 49:19 So I think if a video got six million views about me criticizing something I'd done-

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 49:23 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 49:23 ... it'd probably been quite hard to take mentally.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 49:25 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 49:26 Do you ever ... Does ... Has that ever, like, crossed your mind? Like ever? How-

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 49:29 Yeah. Y-

Steven Bartlett 49:30 I'm not saying what you did was wrong, because th- I watched the video and I actually thought it was really funny. So it's like, was there comedic merit in someone that super successful selling a advent calendar of that n- nature for that price? Yes, I understand it, like when you talk about the wine (techno music plays) and the Gervais, like, philosophy, I get it. But does, d- Has that crossed your mind as well?

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 49:52 Yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 49:53 Hm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 49:53 Um, I ... That's just another reason why I stopped doing it. Um, i- i- i- it's hard to f- f- ... Um, I'm not articulate enough to describe how I feel about it. But yeah, the, the calendar video was funny. There was a clear error on her behalf and I just ... Ultimately, I, I ... I wasn't really saying anything nasty about her, it was just this product. Whereas when you do a follow-up video and a third video, where's the, where's the line? Where do you draw the line? Is it becoming bullying now? Like, that's not who I wanna be. I wanna be a comedian. So, so th- I definitely ... As I've gotten older, and I guess maybe I was immature for a long time. I should have realized this at a way earlier age than I did, but y- you do start to consider others (laughs) .

Steven Bartlett 50:35 Mm-hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 50:36 Um, and, and I'm the same as you mate. I'll read a comment about me on Twitter and I will clap back, and I still go back to them now and Fi's there going, "What are you doing?" And I'm like, "Fuck 'em." Like, I just ... Like, that's a bit of my dad as well, like ... And I'll just, I'll sp- I'll spend hours arguing with football Twitter. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 50:50 That's all the worst.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 50:52 Yeah. (laughs) Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 50:53 And they've all got, like, a football player as their display picture.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 50:55 Yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 50:55 (laughs)

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 50:55 They're called like Fantastic Four Nows or something. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 50:59 (laughs)

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 50:59 He doesn't know who you are. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 51:00 Fucking hell.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 51:01 Yeah. But I, I, I get a bit of a rush from it, really. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 51:05 I, I, I, I worry sometimes, 'cause I say to myself ... I'm trying to reply to a troll to try and disprove their point or because it's fun or whatever-

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 51:14 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 51:14 ... but I think sometimes it's because it's like hit me in the ego.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 51:17 Yeah. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 51:18 And I don't want to admit to myself that that person's actually pissed me off.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 51:21 Yeah. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 51:21 So I kind of use the guise of, "No, it's funny," or like, "No, like ..." To, to justify it to everyone else. Like, "I'm not bothered," but you know what I mean?

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 51:29 (laughs) Yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 51:30 Like, (laughs) I really, I've really ... You know, the internet is not a good place to be if you haven't got control over that, 'cause you'll get dragged around by trolls with egg emoji accounts, like ...

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 51:38 Yeah. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 51:39 Yeah.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 51:39 Yeah, I, I j- I, I ... Like I said, Fi's always telling me not ... "Don't ..." Shit, I'll be in bed like that, hungover or whatever, Sunday morning, going on.

Steven Bartlett 51:47 Mm-hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 51:47 And Fi will be like, "Just leave it. They're fucking idiots." And ultimately, I know, th- ... They're probably just jealous of whatever it ... Like, I'll get like a p- good podcast guest on and they're ... Like the other day, I, (laughs) I was in, um, I was in Wales with Gerwyn Price, he's the number one darts player in the world. And, um, put a picture up of me and him. Just, just put, uh, in beautiful Wales, throwing a few arrows with Gerwyn Price. And Gerwyn Price is this Panto villain. I don't know how much you know about darts, but he's like the Panto villain of darts.

Steven Bartlett 52:14 Is he the Welsh one?

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 52:15 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 52:15 That, that when he wins, always like ... Then he's like-

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 52:17 Oh.

Steven Bartlett 52:17 ... the, the bum and he goes like this.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 52:18 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 52:19 With the big biceps.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 52:19 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 52:20 Yeah, yeah.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 52:20 Yeah, yeah. Um, and, and s- and so he ... I, I'd heard for a while that he's a- he's always ... He's very lovely off camera but ... Or off the stage, but when he's up there, he's a Panto villain.

Steven Bartlett 52:29 Mm-hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 52:29 I was like, "That's pretty much like the Jack Mate of darts in a way." So I put up this picture of him, I was like, "Never judge a book by its cover." Like, I know this more than ... I, I know this myself, 'cause I always did. Just, just this guy replied, "Two bellends," as well. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 52:41 (laughs)

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 52:41 But he follows me (laughs) , just follows me. So it was like, I, I will reply to him. And Fi's like, "Why are you bothered?" Like, that must just be jealousy. Like, why else are you ... What, you follow me and you're, and you're doing that? That doesn't make sense. But I, I kind of like ... I like to think that I'm very, very honest online.

Steven Bartlett 52:59 Mm-hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 53:01 So why would I not reply? Why would I not try and think of some pithy remark to try and put him down? Like, yeah, because I'm meant to be a professional and I'm in this world and I'm working for West Ham, but really, I also think you're a bit of a dickhead, mate (laughs) and I'll tell ya.

Steven Bartlett 53:16 Do you think that because you are very like ... Um, I imagine if like Boris Johnson and like, I don't know, another politician uploaded a pho- photo, you'd probably res- quote retweet it and say, "Two bellends." So like, do you think there's a chance ... 'Cause I n- I don't think anyone would ever tweet me that.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 53:32 Right.

Steven Bartlett 53:32 Like if I ... B- Do you think there's a ... Because you've cultivated a younger male audience that are comedic and they're like, they use kinda, kinda colloquialistic, funny language like bellends.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 53:43 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 53:44 You, you're also now at the mercy of them attacking you with the same language in that situation? I'm just wondering why no one would ever tweet me if I t- uploaded a photo and go, "Two bellends."

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 53:55 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 53:55 I just ... My audience just don't speak like that.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 53:56 Wait for this episode goes out. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 53:58 Yeah. (laughs)

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 53:58 They're gonna comment. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 53:58 (laughs) The top comment is, "Two bellends." Yeah. (laughs)

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 54:02 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 54:02 You see what I mean? Like ... And then you're having to deal with that because-

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 54:05 I get what you mean, yeah. But then maybe they see a bit of ... 'Cause, 'cause I-

Steven Bartlett 54:08 Yeah, they wo-

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 54:09 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 54:09 They think you'd maybe like that as well. They think, "Oh, Ja-" You know.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 54:12 True.

Steven Bartlett 54:12 'Cause he follows you and he, you know, he clearly looks up to you if he fo- is following you and, and stuff.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 54:15 That's, that's true. It's true. It becomes more real when you, like ... When like someone w- some p- uh, there'll be people out there that will defend me on that thread and they'll say, "You don't know him." And he'll go, "Well, he looks like a prick. Look at his trousers." And then it's like-

Steven Bartlett 54:27 Oh, okay.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 54:27 So it's like-

Steven Bartlett 54:28 Then it's personal.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 54:28 Yeah, it go- it goes a bit, it goes a bit deeper then. But like, you are right, because, well, I, I would always do, um, an event called Summer in the City. It was the only time I'd ever-

Steven Bartlett 54:36 Oh.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 54:36 ... I'd ever get out of like Norwich and go and meet the fans. And they'd put you in a pen and there'd be all these YouTubers in this big hall at like Excel, and you'd be in a pen. And then fans would come up one by one. And I'd, I'd meet like 13-year-old girls, you might wanna bleep this, I don't know, but they'd come up to me and go, "All right, you cunt?" And I'll be like-... "What have you just said?" And then, but then because that's what I'm doing online, "All right, you fucking dickhead?" But they're there to meet me and they want their thing signed, so they like me, but they think, like, (laughs) getting-

Steven Bartlett 55:11 (laughs)

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 55:11 But then, but then I wouldn't go up to, like, I wouldn't go up to Declan Rice and start doing keepy-ups-

Steven Bartlett 55:15 (laughs)

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 55:15 ... around the world. Right, Decus? (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 55:17 Oh my God.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 55:18 So then you just, I just have to be like, "Yeah, maybe I am the influencer." Fuck. Scary, scary notion.

Steven Bartlett 55:26 No one's ever said that to me in a meet and greet. Um-

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 55:29 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 55:29 That's so int- it's really interesting. And do you, there's an element of-

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 55:32 (trails off)

Steven Bartlett 55:32 ... y- your, do you think there's an element of your childhood in that, in, in the sense of, like, being triggered a little bit by what people are saying or c- the criticisms that, you know, triggers you, maybe? Because I, I defini- I, I'm thinking about myself, I definitely wouldn't sit in bed replying, especially now I'm on the BBC. Like, BBC One is a bit prestigious and that, I can't really-

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 55:51 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 55:52 ... be popping off too much.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 55:53 Yeah. Well, (laughs) yeah, probably. I probably shouldn't be either.

Steven Bartlett 55:58 Do you, do, do you want to be the type of person that doesn't?

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 56:00 No. (laughs) Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 56:02 Yeah.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 56:02 But I can't, Steve. I can't. Like, I'll, I'll, I'll reply to them and then, and then Fi will be like, "Delete 'em." And then I'll, and then I, I'll be like, "No, not going to." And then in an hour it's like, it's like a comedown. I'm like, "All right, now I'll delete them."

Steven Bartlett 56:16 (laughs)

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 56:16 And then, and then in an hour later someone else has said something. "What do you mean?" (laughs) And I'm so immature on Twitter, it's on a, it's a joke.

Steven Bartlett 56:23 There's a real risk there of being, like, pulled around emotionally though by the external world, right?

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 56:27 Yeah. I've delete, I, I've, I've deleted Twitter off my phone a few times. Um, yeah, we went, I went out for a dinner with Max Fosh and, um, I told him about... He was, he questioned it. He was like, "Why do you always go back at these idiots?" I'm like, "Oh, I just find it funny," or, "They just get to me." And I deleted Twitter off my phone and he was like... I, I said, "I'm gonna do it for the whole weekend." And he was like, "I guarantee that you'll, you'll redownload that by the end of the meal." And I had. (laughs) I did and I was scrolling there, looking through it. So when football Twitter say, "We're in your head, mate," nine times out of 10 you are in my head. But I'll try and get back in yours. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 57:02 Do you not think it would be a happier life just to fucking, like... (laughs)

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 57:06 100%. Yeah. Yeah. But I guess I get bored.

Steven Bartlett 57:10 Is it that?

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 57:11 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 57:12 (laughs)

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 57:12 And that's your ego. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 57:15 (laughs) Yeah, yeah.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 57:17 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 57:17 Quick one. As many of you know, I've been trying to make my life a little bit more sustainable as it relates to energy ever since I sold my Range Rover Sport and bought an electric bicycle. And Myenergi, as a sponsor of this podcast, are one of the brands that make that transition much, much easier. They are at the forefront of British renewable eco smart technology, and their products are really, really changing the game. If you're on YouTube, you can see what I'm holding in my hand. This is called the eddi, right? It's the UK's number one solar powered diverter. So what is a solar diverter? It's a device for people like you and me. That means you can divert your excess energy back into your home rather than back into the grid, which will save you power and money. It's super user friendly and easy to install, and you can control it using the Myenergi app on your phone. To find out more about this product and more products like it that will help you make that sustainable transition, head over to myenergi.com and, um, I highly recommend you check out the eddi. It's, um, it's a real game changer of a product and one that I'm going to be installing in my home soon. Happy Hour, so this was a really pivotal moment for you. Whe- where did

Steven Bartlett 58:21 that start? Why did you decide to start doing long, long form podcasts instead of the, the other types of videos you were making before?

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 58:26 I've, I, I've always wanted to interview people. At college, 10 years ago, I, I studied interview techniques. My-

Steven Bartlett 58:32 Really?

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 58:33 My granddad was the first person I interviewed. He came in and I interviewed him about the war and all that kind of stuff. And I always wanted to do it. And then in 2017 I had a podcast with my friend Tom Norris. Um, done all, done all right, uh, but it was just too much, too, too much, um... We were doing it at the YouTube space and we'd rock up sometimes and they didn't have the cameras in and that, so it fell by the wayside. But then, uh, 2018 I wanted to do another podcast. I said to Fi, I said, "Who shall I do it with?" 'Cause I always knew I wanted to do it with your everyman, so not a YouTuber, 'cause that's not... I'm not a YouTuber that's been friends with YouTubers. I'm a YouTuber that's friends with my mates in Norwich. I'll do the best video ever with the big celebrity, come back to Norwich and they'll just go, "Yeah, we didn't watch it, mate. Not bothered." (laughs) And I'll just be in the pub and that will be everything I need to keep me grounded.

Steven Bartlett 59:20 Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 59:21 So I, so she, she suggested Stevie White who's, um, just a, just a mate that lived in Bristol. And, uh, I called him up and said, "Do you want to do a podcast?" And he said, "Why?" (laughs) I said, "Good point." (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 59:33 Why? (laughs)

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 59:34 Good, good point. And then, and we ended up giving it a go. I started doing it with a guy called ImAllexx who's a, who's a YouTuber that was very, um, a comment... He was a co- commentary YouTuber, so he was calling out people.

Steven Bartlett 59:45 Mm-hmm.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 59:45 He would do the cookie cutter templates of like, "X, Y and Z needs to be canceled. X, Y and Z needs to be can-" And he was doing that all the time. So originally my show was a YouTube drama show to call people out, to be an extension of what I was doing on the main channel. And then after about five or six episodes I thought, "This is just poisonous and I don't, it's not me. Why am I trying to do it in a different format?" So we dropped that and started getting guests on and interviewing people, and I found the love of YouTube again, which I'd, which I'd lost for a few years.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:15 Was there, like, a pivotal moment in Happy Hour where you thought, "Fuck, this is gonna be..." Was it, it wasn't the Spotify, dude, it must have come sooner than that, right? Where you thought, "This is... We've got something here."

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 1:00:24 Yeah. Um, again, it was probably getting Gervais on.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:27 Oh, God. I do remember that day.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 1:00:29 'Cause he was, he, he was in our first, like, three guests.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:32 Nice.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 1:00:33 And, and I'm so grateful that he gave me a chance years ago, 'cause I would, I, I genuinely believe I would have none of this if it wasn't for him giving me a shot. And I built up a connection with him years ago. So he then, when I needed someone big to come on the podcast, he would step in. And you know what it's like, you get one through the door, other people almost then don't judge the show based on me. They'll judge it based on who, who else has sat in that seat.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:55 Yeah.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 1:00:56 So, so I owe a, I, I owe a lot to him. So that was probably a defining moment. And testament to Stevie as well, because I've been doing this for 10, 12 years.... I've been around people like Gervais. I've been very lucky, very fortunate. And I remember how nervous I was the first time I sat on a sofa with him. The first time I filmed with him was the most nervous I've ever been for anything in my life. And then Stevie White is come literally seemingly out of boots the day before, and then he sat there with Ricky, and he's just, he just gets it. He's just on, and he's just the glue. And I was like, "I've chosen the right person here, like, to do this, this journey with."

Steven Bartlett 1:01:32 And then the money side of things. So eventually, y- you get approached by Spotify-

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 1:01:36 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:36 ... and they, they offer you, um, a contract or a deal, ex- exclusive deal to do. And I remember watching your video announcing that.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 1:01:42 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:42 And you were very, very honest.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 1:01:44 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:01:44 A lot of people-

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 1:01:45 Was it too honest?

Steven Bartlett 1:01:45 No. Like, I think that's probably why people like you so much because you're, I can trust you because you're going to tell me the way you go. "Listen, we're..." You know, the money is a fucking-

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 1:01:54 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:01:54 ... very important thing here and you're being very, um-

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 1:01:57 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:57 ... overt about that which I think is admirable because again, it builds trust. People don't have to like what you're saying, but they're gonna trust you.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 1:02:02 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:02 They're gonna trust you to always be honest with them. So, um, what was your thinking around the Spotify deal? Because, you know, I don't know, someday Spotify might approach me and ask me if I want to, um, if I want to go Spotify exclusive and maybe you can give me some advice on that.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 1:02:16 Um, uh, the reason I did it was purely financial. I thought it was going to be a bad idea. And I took some... My network who I'm signed to, they wanted it to happen because obviously they've got a slice of the pie.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:33 Did they, did they orchestrate the deal or did, did Spotify go to them and then to you?

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 1:02:37 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:37 Okay.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 1:02:38 And, um, originally I saw it as, okay, I'm taking off the full visual episodes on YouTube and just putting them on an audio based platform whereas a lot of my audience might be y- the younger kids, and people like me and you, we probably consume a lot of just audio when we're on the go and in the car and that. Whereas I think younger generations, and I'm basing this on nothing, you probably know better than I do, but I imagine younger kids probably like the more visual. They like to watch the YouTube.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:01 I think so.

JaackMaate (Jack Dean) 1:03:02 So I thought taking it off is, is, is probably going to get a lot of backlash. And then Spotify told me how much it would be per year and the potential for how many years and I thought, well, that doesn't just change my life, that changed my children's life who don't even exist. So I literally did it 'cause I was financially driven. Um, and I, I, and I've got no qualm saying that or admitting that. But what I'll also say is I c- now I'm starting to see the benefits a year in of going with Spotify. And they're not, they've not got a gun to my head. I can be as honest as I want about it. If I thought it was shit, I wouldn't have then signed on for the second year. But they are now