Leading Neuroscientist: Stress Leaks Through Skin, Is Contagious, Gives You Belly Fat! Dr Tara Swart

Dr Tara Swart 0:00 Did you know, there's a really fascinating experiment done on weightlifters? They lifted no weights for two weeks. They just sat there and they visualized themselves lifting weights. They had a 13% increase in muscle mass. People should realize how much potential they have in their brains.

Steven Bartlett 0:15 Dr. Tara Swart.

Dr Tara Swart 0:17 She's a neuroscientist. Medical doctor. Executive advisor. And best-selling author. She's here to teach us on how to build mental resilience. To overcome our biggest challenges.

Steven Bartlett 0:27 Is stress contagious?

Dr Tara Swart 0:28 Mm-hmm. So cortisol is the main stress hormone, and it will leak out of our sweat about this far around us, go into the skin of everybody else, and it's gonna impact them.

Steven Bartlett 0:38 How ...

Dr Tara Swart 0:39 And as a survival mechanism, it will help you to store fat around your abdomen.

Steven Bartlett 0:45 So stress causes belly fat?

Dr Tara Swart 0:46 Belly fat that's really hard to shift. There's another rabbit hole you could go down about social contagion. So there are statistics that show that you meet people who are at a similar psychological level to you. For example, if someone gets divorced, you're more likely to get divorced in the next year. Your own brain can play tricks on you.

Steven Bartlett 1:02 So what can I do about that?

Dr Tara Swart 1:04 The brain is actively growing and changing till we're about 25. But from 25 to 65, if you do things that are intense enough to force your brain to change, you will actually improve the highest functions of the brain. Things like regulate your emotions better, solve complex problems, think flexibly, override any unconscious biases that you may have.

Steven Bartlett 1:26 It begs the question then, where do I start? (dramatic music) Dr. Tara Swart. What are the sort of existing ideas that your work and what you speak about is confronting? The, like, unhelpful existing preconceptions about the brain, human potential-

Dr Tara Swart 1:55 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:55 ... that your work is confronting head-on?

Dr Tara Swart 1:58 So the first thing I came up against, 'cause this was around the time of the financial crisis, was the lack of understanding of the brain-body connection.

Dr Tara Swart 2:06 So these high performing executives were kind of acting like their body was just the vehicle that was moving their brain around from meeting to meeting. And both disrespecting their bo- their physical health, but also not understanding that what they were actually really being paid for was to use their brain, and they weren't creating the best conditions for that brain to operate in. Um, and I'm talking about really basic things like sleep and a good diet and hydration and not being sedentary, managing your stress, et cetera. So, you know, this tiny organ, if it's not in an environment that is giving it the best chance of doing its job, it's not going to and a crack's going to appear somewhere. Um, and the first time I really kind of had a big confrontation with a bank was when people were dropping dead on the trading floor of heart attacks. And they asked me to work more in my capacity as a former medical doctor to help with the physical stuff, and I said, "I can't do that if we don't address the mental and emotional piece, because that's what's causing this." And they just could- could not get that.

Steven Bartlett 3:21 What did you want to do with those people in a specific and practical sense? What, if you could have, you know, been in charge of preventing them from dropping dead on the trading floor-

Dr Tara Swart 3:30 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 3:31 ... where would you have started?

Dr Tara Swart 3:32 The understanding that stress, so everything that you're experiencing mentally and emotionally that's challenging, and things like a lot of travel, which is challenging of your body, that that raises levels of the hormone cortisol, which comes from your adrenal glands. And that cortisol courses around your blood through your entire body and brain, and the brain has receptors for understanding what's going on in terms of threat to your survival. So in a 24-hour cycle, depending on your age and your gender, there's a normal range for cortisol. So it can go up and down like this. You know, if something challenging happens, we need to adapt and rise to meet that challenge. But when that level is above the top range all the time, these receptors in your brain basically think that there's an imminent threat to your survival. So there's this whole cascade of hormones, and they, basically, cortisol causes inflammation in the body.

Steven Bartlett 4:31 Mm-hmm.

Dr Tara Swart 4:32 So inflammation of your vascular system, inflammation around your heart, and everything else, gut, and you know, other things. But particularly around that time, we were seeing a lot of heart attacks caused by stress. This was in the absence of high blood pressure, high cholesterol, smoking. It was all stress.

Steven Bartlett 4:50 I read a, I read a study and I was watching a TED Talk that seemed to make the case that stress was somewhat subjective, i.e. it's an interpretation of- of events.

Dr Tara Swart 5:01 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 5:01 So one can be in a situation where, um, they feel very stressed. You can put a different person in that situation and they wouldn't experience it as stress.

Dr Tara Swart 5:07 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 5:08 Also, there was, I think there's quite a famous TED Talk that makes the case that stress only has physiological consequences in the form of disease and inflammation and the heart attacks you're describing if we believe that stress is gonna have that effect on us. If we believe stress is bad.

Dr Tara Swart 5:25 Is bad, yeah. I get that.

Steven Bartlett 5:27 Is that true?

Dr Tara Swart 5:28 Um, so I would define stress as when the load that you perceive on you physically, mentally, emotionally, or spiritually is too much for you to bear. So yes, it is subjective. Um, when I moved into business and leadership, people would use the terms good stress and bad stress, and I found that really difficult, having been a psychiatrist and seeing people actually break down, to think that there's any such thing as good stress. But what I have, you know, h- the way that I've adapted that over the last 10 or 15 years is that...... there's an adaptive response, which is a healthy response to a challenge. And we have that for a reason. We need that, and that can be a good thing. But that should be a spike. It should go up and it should go back down again. If it stays high all the time, that's not good.

Steven Bartlett 6:18 My second question now is about the contagion of stress. Once upon a time, I Googled, um, 'cause I had a th- thesis, I Googled, "Is stress contagious?"

Dr Tara Swart 6:27 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 6:28 And it came up and it said it was contagious. Well, is it contagious? In what circumstances do we need to be aware of that contagion? And more importantly, how and why is it contagious?

Dr Tara Swart 6:39 Okay. I will tell you the answer to that, but I'm gonna ask you a question first. Have you ever walked into a room with someone and by the time you've left that meeting with them-

Steven Bartlett 6:48 Yes.

Dr Tara Swart 6:48 ... you just feel so drained? (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 6:51 (laughs)

Dr Tara Swart 6:51 Okay. So you know-

Steven Bartlett 6:52 Of course. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr Tara Swart 6:52 Yeah. You know, so you know the feeling.

Steven Bartlett 6:54 Yeah.

Dr Tara Swart 6:54 So I'll t- I'll tell you how it works physiologically. Um, I'm gonna start with something else to, like, build you up to this story. So did you know that women who live together or work closely together will synchronize their menstrual periods within two or three months?

Steven Bartlett 7:08 Yeah. J- I found this out many years ago, and it has completely changed my perception on so many things. So many things. Because, I have to be honest, I'm, I'm a very sort of logical, I need, like, science and evidence, and so I always thought about ph- I don't know, physic- physi- physical things, like, if I can't see it, it doesn't exist.

Dr Tara Swart 7:28 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 7:28 It's kinda been my, my, like, framework for thinking about life.

Dr Tara Swart 7:30 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 7:30 And when I heard about that, I checked it was true, found out it was true, and it broke the frame in which I think.

Dr Tara Swart 7:37 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 7:37 Because if, if there are invisi- if, if it's possible that invisible forces now between me and you-

Dr Tara Swart 7:42 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 7:42 ... are interacting with our bodies, okay, well then what else is possible? Sorry.

Dr Tara Swart 7:46 I'm already using a certain form of eye contact with you to create emotional resonance.

Steven Bartlett 7:50 Uh-oh. What have you done to me?

Dr Tara Swart 7:51 We're gonna get sidetracked. Do you wanna go back to the hormone- (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 7:54 What kind of eye contact are you, are you using with me? (laughs) Tell me.

Dr Tara Swart 7:58 So basically-

Steven Bartlett 8:00 We'll go back to the hormone thing. We'll just park that.

Dr Tara Swart 8:01 We'll go, yeah, we'll park that. It's, it's related.

Steven Bartlett 8:03 Okay.

Dr Tara Swart 8:03 Um, so when a baby is born, one of the ways that it learns what emotion the mom's experiencing, how it understands its own emotions, you know, everything that grows over childhood and teenage into, you know, pro-social behavior, starts off mostly with eye contact with the mom. So at first, they can hardly see anything. They can just kind of see two blobs, and then they start to understand more about, like, micro facial expression changes and stuff. But eye contact with the mom is hugely important. So most people are right-handed, so they'll be holding their baby in their left arm so they can still use their dominant hand to do stuff, and that means that when you gaze at your baby, your right eye is looking into their left eye, and then that interaction, that, from the optic nerve, is going around the brain, it's impacting the, um, amygdala where emotions come from, and it's creating this emotional resonance loop that's part of how the mother and the baby bond. So that right eye to left eye eye contact is the most bonding eye contact that you can have with someone. Now, you could say, "Oh, but my mom was left-handed," or you could be left-handed, but, you know, if I'm taking a chance on trying to build that bond with someone, that's the statistically most likely one to create good resonance between you.

Steven Bartlett 9:24 So you walked in here and you started looking in my left eye?

Dr Tara Swart 9:27 I waited 'til we sat down. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 9:30 (laughs)

Dr Tara Swart 9:30 I gave you a hug.

Steven Bartlett 9:31 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr Tara Swart 9:31 You gave me a hug, you know.

Steven Bartlett 9:32 Yeah.

Dr Tara Swart 9:32 So all of those little things, they start to... And, you know, we've laughed about a few things before we've come on air. Those are the sorts of things that create, like, um, higher levels of the bonding hormone oxytocin.

Steven Bartlett 9:45 Mm-hmm.

Dr Tara Swart 9:45 So you're more likely to lower your guard, trust the person-

Steven Bartlett 9:48 Mm-hmm.

Dr Tara Swart 9:48 ... take a healthy risk. Um, so yeah. I mean, like I said, I know that stuff, so I live my life like that.

Steven Bartlett 9:56 Just wanna get, g- k- make sure I've got that c- clearly in my mind so I could repeat that to someone else-

Dr Tara Swart 10:00 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 10:01 ... later. 'Cause I think-

Dr Tara Swart 10:02 It's great for dating. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 10:03 Yeah. Of course it is. I think we might go down that, that, down that path a little bit. But the reason that works is because there's this association in our brains that if someone is looking into your left eye, it kind of triggers something, a bonding response, that is quite innate in us.

Dr Tara Swart 10:18 Yeah. Basic- basically. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 10:19 Is that the TL;DR of it? Okay. Super interesting. What else? What else?

Dr Tara Swart 10:23 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 10:23 If I'm tryna bond with someone-

Dr Tara Swart 10:25 Yeah. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 10:26 ... so everybody listening to this right now, whether they're in work, they're in sales, they- they're looking for a partner, whatever, it's a nice little trick-

Dr Tara Swart 10:31 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 10:32 ... to look into someone's left eye. I'm gonna only look into your left eye for the rest of this visit.

Dr Tara Swart 10:34 With your right eye.

Steven Bartlett 10:37 How do I... I'm just looking with both.

Dr Tara Swart 10:39 Yeah. You feel like that, but once you start doing this, I promise you, you will notice a difference.

Steven Bartlett 10:44 Okay. Um, what else? What other tricks to make, to encourage bonding?

Dr Tara Swart 10:48 Encourage bonding? So physical interaction.

Steven Bartlett 10:51 Yeah.

Dr Tara Swart 10:51 So, um, you know, depending on the appropriateness of it, minimum handshake, maybe a hug, maybe a kiss on the cheek, you know, depending on what, um, situation you're in.

Steven Bartlett 11:02 I do this ha- handshake where I... We hugged so we didn't handshake.

Dr Tara Swart 11:05 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 11:05 I, many, many years ago, I read an article that if when you ha- hol- shake someone's hand-

Dr Tara Swart 11:10 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 11:11 ... you put the other hand over the top of it-

Dr Tara Swart 11:12 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 11:12 ... it creates a sense of warmth and trust. So I've been doing that for 10 years now. I give them my left hand or my right hand, and then the other hand goes over the top of it.

Dr Tara Swart 11:21 Yeah. It's definitely extra. And you see this in a lot of, um, kind of more ancient cultures, that there is, like, more of a handshake than what we do, which seems, i- it's just one hand and it's quite brief and stuff. So yeah, the more of that kind of physical touch-

Steven Bartlett 11:35 Mm-hmm.

Dr Tara Swart 11:35 ... that you can get, the, the better. So, you know, everyone that I've met since I've come in this morning, I've either shaken hands with them or hugged them, and I would not not do that.

Steven Bartlett 11:44 Mm-hmm. Is there anything else in terms of encouraging the release of oxytocin that you're aware of? What are the behaviors that in- increase that bonding chemical in our brains?

Dr Tara Swart 11:55 Um, eye contact and touch are the main ones.

Steven Bartlett 11:58 Okay.

Dr Tara Swart 11:58 Laughing together is another one. Um, and then not to do with another person, but if you take a bath rather than a shower, then you'll release more oxytocin.... massage helps. Well, you're immersed in warm water, so it feels like a hug.

Steven Bartlett 12:17 So you, you would theoretically get out of the bath and, and be kinder and happier and more, people would wanna bond with you more?

Dr Tara Swart 12:24 Well, you'll be more in the mode of-

Steven Bartlett 12:26 Bonding.

Dr Tara Swart 12:27 ... doing that, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 12:28 So interesting. What about sh- um, vulnerability? 'Cause I h- I heard shared struggle is one of the things that-

Dr Tara Swart 12:34 Oh.

Steven Bartlett 12:34 ... releases oxytocin.

Dr Tara Swart 12:36 Yeah, so, um, yeah, going through something, not necessarily traumatic, but that's highly emotional, that is very bonding as well. So we see this a lot on the reality shows where people are like, "Oh, we're gonna be friends for life." You know, if you do something like a skydive or a bungee jump in a group, then, you know, you do feel more bonded to those people. Um, but they're not as practical as the, just the little things that you can do every day.

Steven Bartlett 13:00 Okay, so let's get back to this hormone conversation.

Dr Tara Swart 13:02 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 13:02 We'll take that off the shelf. So we're talking

Steven Bartlett 13:04 about stress and the contagion of stress.

Dr Tara Swart 13:06 So we started by setting the scene with the fact that women who interact with each other physically closely, they synchronize their menstrual cycles. And so whenever I want to explain something that's complex or I don't actually know the current neuroscience, I always take it back to what happened in ancient times. So when we were living in the cave, the men hunted and gathered and lived quite nomadically. So sometimes they would go away for months at a time, and actually, if they went far enough away and were closer to another cave of the same tribe, they would actually just stay there and never return to the original tribe, original cave. But mostly, they would leave for weeks or months and then return to the original cave. And in those days, the most fundamental, important thing for the survival of the human species was that the alpha male must pass on his genes. So if he was gonna be away for months and he couldn't, you know, the, there weren't men there to defend the women from predators, maybe there was gonna be a spell of the Ice Age and they would all freeze to death or they wouldn't have food, um, he needed to make sure that at least five women were impregnated with his sperm at the same time, so that if there was a food shortage or there was, like, stillbirth or miscarriage or whatever, at least one out of five would survive. So to be able to do that, they had to be fertile at the same time. So that's why that mechanism exists. Now, we don't need that mechanism now, but it's still wired into the way that we operate. So those sex steroid hormones, like estrogen and progesterone, they leak out of our sweat about this far around us. And that's why, if you're living with another woman or if, you know, you're sitting across the desk every day, then particles of hormone from my sweat would go into the s- through the skin of the other woman.

Steven Bartlett 15:03 If she's within what distance?

Dr Tara Swart 15:05 I mean, it's not... You wouldn't have to be sitting next to each other. If you lived together, then that means you're interacting enough that it would happen.

Steven Bartlett 15:10 Okay.

Dr Tara Swart 15:12 So particles-

Steven Bartlett 15:13 But, but not, not if you work together?

Dr Tara Swart 15:15 If you work together and you sit right next to each other every day, then it does happen too. So, you know, in a, a small office that's got, like, six girls in it, that, that, the menstrual synchronization will happen. Interestingly, it's led by the alpha female. So, yeah. (laughs) So you can, you can work out, if you don't know already, who the alpha female, well, if you, you know. Basically, let's say my cycles don't change and everyone says, "Oh, I got my period early," or, "I haven't had my period yet, but now it's started," then that would mean that probably I was the alpha female.

Steven Bartlett 15:46 How does the body know who the alpha female is?

Dr Tara Swart 15:48 That will be to do with levels of testosterone.

Steven Bartlett 15:51 Why, why did the body... Why does that matter who the alpha female is? Why does it matter that they sync up with her?

Dr Tara Swart 15:56 I, uh, I don't, I don't know if it really matters. I think it's just a case of physiology. So it's a little bit like in the, um,

Dr Tara Swart 16:04 troops of gorillas, the stress levels of the silverback gorilla affect the other gorillas more than gorillas who are peers to each other. So there is... We have a natural hierarchy, and it must be related to survival as well.

Steven Bartlett 16:19 So she was probably the person who the alpha male was going to impregnate first?

Dr Tara Swart 16:26 Probably.

Steven Bartlett 16:27 So everyone needs to kind of fall in line, 'cause when she starts having sex, they need to be ready?

Dr Tara Swart 16:31 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 16:32 Okay.

Dr Tara Swart 16:32 And also, it'll probably be to do with things like, you know, survival genes. So it'll be the, the people with the hardiest genes, 'cause that's what you'll want to pass on as well.

Steven Bartlett 16:40 Mm-hmm. Okay, makes sense. Most resilient, okay.

Dr Tara Swart 16:44 Okay, so where were we?

Steven Bartlett 16:45 Stress and contagion.

Dr Tara Swart 16:46 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 16:46 (laughs) We've done all the hormones and the menstrual cycle stuff.

Dr Tara Swart 16:48 So basically, cortisol is a hormone that works in that same way. So cortisol is the main stress hormone, and this one doesn't matter if you're male or female, but it does matter where you are in the hierarchy of the organization, as I just mentioned. So usually, in that c- conversation that I mentioned to you where you go into a room and you just feel completely drained afterwards, usually the person that comes out feeling drained is less senior than the person that's had that effect on them. And that's why this is so crucial to leadership, because your stress levels as a leader, as a CEO, are going to have more impact on everybody else than the rest of the people, um, put together, basically. So managing your stress is obviously important for you, but it's important in terms of what happens to other people. And the first issue I came up against was CEOs and CFOs that said, "Well, I won't show them that I'm stressed. I won't, I won't tell them what's happening with the numbers. I won't display emotions in front of them." And I said, "They're still gonna know, physiologically. It's gonna impact them." So now you really have to do something about it. Um, and the other thing about cortisol, which is quite funny, well, (laughs) one of the side effects that's quite funny, is that as a survival mechanism, it will help you to store fat around your abdomen.So, you know, again, in the cave, if you were potentially going to, like, not find food for a month, then if you had extra fat around your abdomen, you could digest that and survive till you could find food. So with my clients in financial services, it got to a point where as soon as I walked into the room, they'd just lift their T-shirt up and say, "Now you know how I've been in the last month." And then I had a really, really funny incident when I was speaking at a bank and the CEO's PA was there in the audience, and I was explaining that, you know, leadership stress leaks down, that that stress can lead to abdominal fat that you can't shift. And she shouted out, "So he's the reason that I'm fat."

Steven Bartlett 18:59 (laughs)

Dr Tara Swart 18:59 (laughs) But Steve, no one laughed.

Steven Bartlett 19:03 Really?

Dr Tara Swart 19:03 Yeah. And that's when I knew that, okay, he obviously is, like, really stressing everyone out. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 19:10 Oh gosh, no one laughed?

Dr Tara Swart 19:12 No.

Steven Bartlett 19:14 Through fear or something? Or just 'cause they all just thought it was true?

Dr Tara Swart 19:17 (laughs) It wasn't funny, (laughs) it was true.

Steven Bartlett 19:20 Jesus. So stress causes belly fat?

Dr Tara Swart 19:22 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 19:23 Hmm.

Dr Tara Swart 19:23 Belly fat that's really hard to shift. So again, what I would see with people is that they would say, "Oh, I've put on a bit of weight round the middle, you know, had to loosen the belt a bit, so I've started eating less, I've started, like, exercising more, and I still can't shift it." And again, that's when I would explain this is the impact of cortisol. As long as you're still leaking out extra cortisol, nothing's gonna change, so... A- a- and like I said, even exercising more or eating better, less, or differently, whatever it is, wouldn't shift that fat. You had to get to the root cause, you had to reduce the cortisol.

Steven Bartlett 19:58 It also made me think about when you consider promoting someone in your organization-

Dr Tara Swart 20:02 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 20:03 ... you have to be very careful that if you put a particularly stressed, cortisol-leaking individual high in the organization, there's gonna be a significant impact for everyone below them.

Dr Tara Swart 20:14 Yeah. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 20:14 Is that accurate? Is that an accurate observation?

Dr Tara Swart 20:16 Yeah, yeah. No, that's a really good way of putting it. I mean, I always think of that phrase, "What got you here won't get you there," which is more about the fact that people get promoted 'cause they're good at what they do, but they don't really get taught all the, you know, best management and leadership skills. But that's a really pertinent point. If they're a- a person who is stressed, particularly who suppresses stress, um, which some of these, you know, successful people do, then it would have an impact down the organization.

Steven Bartlett 20:42 It begs the question, then, so if- if someone's listening to this and they go, "Do you know what? I'm a leaky cortisol person, I'm highly stressed, and it's probably getting to people around me, what can I do about that?"

Dr Tara Swart 20:52 So first of all, if someone's saying that, half the battle is won. The problem is when people are not aware of that. Um, but let's say you are. So let's say that I give you that list of signs and symptoms that you've got high levels of cortisol, which include things like sleep disruption, because cortisol's part of the 24-hour clock. Melatonin helps us to wake up, cortisol helps... (laughs) Melatonin helps us to fall asleep, cortisol helps us to wake up. Um, maybe you've noticed the belly fat. Um, because of the really strong connection between the brain and the gut, any sort of reflux or indigestion symptoms are often signs that you've got high levels of cortisol too, and of course things like irritability and mood changes. What I mostly would hear people say is that, "I can just about keep it together when I'm at work, but when I get home, if my kids are, you know, annoying or my partner's asking for too much, I just snap." So that means you're, like, one step away from snapping at work if somebody, like, pushes you too far, so that's not good. Because cortisol is pro-inflammatory, it's very drying of the system as well, so you might notice that your skin's really dry or you've got skin problems. Your skin isn't just the physical border of your body, it's the psychological boundary of your body too, so often stress shows up in the skin. Then there are two main things that you can do. One is physical exercise, 'cause you can literally sweat cortisol out of your body, so you can sweat excel- excess cortisol out of your body by doing aerobic exercise. Um, the other one is journaling, so writing out what's on your mind rather than just let it be in there and keep going round and round. Or if you've got a therapist or a trusted friend, speaking it out loud. So it's all about getting cortisol and/or the negative thoughts that are associated with your stress out of your brain-body system.

Steven Bartlett 22:46 I think this is fascinating. I looked at the back end of our YouTube channel, and it says that since this channel started, 69.9% of you that watch it frequently haven't yet hit the subscribe button. So I have a favor to ask you. If you've ever watched this channel and enjoyed the content, if you're enjoying this episode right now, please can I ask a small favor? Please hit the subscribe button. Helps this channel more than I can explain. And I promise, if you do that, to return the favor, we will make this show better and better and better and better and better. That's a promise I'm willing to make to you if you hit the subscribe button. Do we have a deal? I've had a real revelation in my life over the last, um, hmm, maybe six months about sleep.

Dr Tara Swart 23:26 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 23:27 Again, it's why I said, I think, before we started recording, that I don't have any meetings scheduled before 11:00 AM and I sleep with my eye mask on and I just wake up when I wake up.

Dr Tara Swart 23:35 Yeah, me too.

Steven Bartlett 23:36 Oh, really?

Dr Tara Swart 23:36 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 23:37 I've n- never really met anybody that has that. It's- it is a privilege, I have to acknowledge-

Dr Tara Swart 23:40 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 23:40 ... that not everyone can do because of work circumstances, whatever else. But, um, the importance of sleep. You- you're a neuroscientist.

Dr Tara Swart 23:49 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 23:50 Um, there's a lot of people who have dysfunctional sleep. We live in a world where it's- I feel like it's increasingly difficult to have h- you know, great sleep.

Dr Tara Swart 23:58 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 23:58 Um, how important is that for

Steven Bartlett 24:00 the brain and also y- you know, we were talking about stress there, but for-

Dr Tara Swart 24:03 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 24:04 ... con- containing our stress levels?

Dr Tara Swart 24:06 It's so important, I can't stop going on about it. And I do understand that for some people, it's not a choice, that they just don't sleep well or they ha- their sleep gets interrupted 'cause they've got young kids or they do shift work. So I'm not particularly talking about the people where...... there's a reason that you can't sleep in this way. I, I'm mostly directing i- this, uh, if you have a choice, this is the way that you need to sleep and this is why. If you don't have a choice, there are some things that you can do to mitigate it as well. I mean, obviously I have done shift work as a junior doctor in the NHS, and I travel a lot, so I'm like jet lagged half the time.

Steven Bartlett 24:44 Mm-hmm.

Dr Tara Swart 24:45 But I try to do everything I can to make that as, as good as possible. And the reason is, we've always known that when you sleep, you lay down your memories and new learning, you process your emotions, the cells in the body regenerate themselves. We've, we've known that for a long time. That's never really been enough for these very driven CE level people to want to give up eight hours a night to sleep. You know, it's ... If they feel they can get by on four or five, then they'll rather do that because they've got so much to do. The ideal is eight hours and 15 minutes in population norm studies. So that doesn't mean it's for everyone, but for most people, that's the ideal. Actually, sleeping more than that can be depressogenic, so it can start to lower your mood. So you don't want to really be sleeping for nine plus hours, but you ideally need to be in bed for nine hours to get that amount of sleep. And so there was some award-winning research around 2012 to 2014 when we were beginning to understand how important the cleaning of the brain is overnight. So this entirely new system that we didn't know existed, which is called the glymphatic system,

Dr Tara Swart 25:52 it's like the lymphatic system in your body, but it's to do with glial cells, so it was named the glymphatic system. That system is a very active kind of waterway channel cleansing system of the brain. We used to think that the fluid around the brain, and there's ventricles which are like lakes, and then there's just like trickling areas, that that sort of passively dripped through the brain overnight. We did not expect to see like jets of fluid flushing out toxins from the brain. So the exact things that we see in the pathology of dementing diseases like Alzheimer's and Parkinson's, like tau proteins and amyloid plaques and neurofibrillary tangles (laughs) -

Steven Bartlett 26:39 How do you say that in English?

Dr Tara Swart 26:40 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 26:41 (laughs)

Dr Tara Swart 26:41 Those things are being flushed out of the brain very actively overnight, and that process takes seven to eight hours to complete the cleaning. That's why you need to be in bed for eight to nine hours.

Steven Bartlett 26:54 So it takes seven or eight hours to, of restorative sleep, or just being in bed?

Dr Tara Swart 26:58 Just sleep. Not in bed. If you're in bed awake, you're not asleep. You know, you have to be asleep. But you'll go through the different sleep cycles every 90 minutes. This isn't in time with that. This is just taking seven or eight hours to flush this stuff out of your brain. So one of the things I do say to people who, who don't sleep well is, "If you find yourself awake at night and you're not lying on your side, turn yourself onto your side, 'cause that's the best position for this cleansing process." I actually have a special pillow that makes me sleep on my side, 'cause I wasn't naturally a side sleeper. So it doesn't matter if it's the left or the right, but that is a better position in terms of the veins in your neck, um, than sleeping on your back or your front. So that's one thing you can do. Oh, you woke up, you know, your sleep was disturbed, at least turn yourself onto your side.

Steven Bartlett 27:44 What is this special pillow?

Dr Tara Swart 27:46 Um-

Steven Bartlett 27:46 You just, you just bragged about it and then moved on, I feel like. (laughs)

Dr Tara Swart 27:48 (laughs) It's, it's a memory foam pillow. Am I allowed to mention the brand?

Steven Bartlett 27:51 Of course, yeah.

Dr Tara Swart 27:52 Yeah. Nice.

Steven Bartlett 27:52 We'll, we'll make sure they sponsor it before then. (laughs)

Dr Tara Swart 27:55 (laughs) It's a memory foam pillow. This, my one is by Tempur UK.

Steven Bartlett 27:59 Yeah.

Dr Tara Swart 27:59 Um, and they actually, they gifted it to me because I was talking about side sleeping. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 28:03 Oh, really?

Dr Tara Swart 28:03 So, yeah, it's great.

Steven Bartlett 28:05 Okay. I'm a side sleeper. My girlfriend's a back sleeper. But I can't sleep on my back. I, I, it's funny, 'cause I start on my front.

Dr Tara Swart 28:11 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 28:11 That lasts for 15 minutes 'cause I get bad back at the bottom of my back.

Dr Tara Swart 28:14 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 28:14 I roll onto my side.

Dr Tara Swart 28:16 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 28:16 But I, I've always wondered if there was, um, g- when you look at tribes and our ancestors, how they would sleep, would they sleep in groups, would they sleep alone, would they sleep on their side, their back? Do you know the answers to any of that?

Dr Tara Swart 28:26 Um, I know that co-sleeping is definitely how we evolved from co-sleeping, so in groups. And what was, wha- what I find interesting is that you needed to huddle together like that for physical warmth in the cave, but it also, because of that proximity and, and, and interaction, you got more of the bonding hormone oxytocin, so you also experienced the warmth of being part of a tribe. Um, and I think they slept on their side because they would have to be ready for an attack, uh, from a predator, so you'd need to keep your dominant arm, um, ready to, you know, grab something. And most likely they slept on their left because they would've been protecting their most vital organs, the heart. Um ...

Steven Bartlett 29:11 Just thinking then about this bonding chemical and how it comes out when we're in close proximity, a lot of couples, a lot of people, me sometimes as well, sleep in the spare room because I have work commitments, but that'll mean that I'm up early, or my partner has work commitments and that means she's up early. But even some of my friends who are in the early stages of parenthood-

Dr Tara Swart 29:31 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 29:32 ... have separated-

Dr Tara Swart 29:33 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 29:33 ... and have a sleep divorce situation.

Dr Tara Swart 29:35 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 29:36 When you talked about the bonding and the oxytocin re- being released when we're in closer proximity, and obviously at nighttime is when we're literally touching each other-

Dr Tara Swart 29:44 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 29:44 ... is it conceivable that by separating rooms and by doing a sleep divorce, we're actually eroding our bonding?

Dr Tara Swart 29:51 I would never do it.

Steven Bartlett 29:52 You would never sleep in a different room from your partner?

Dr Tara Swart 29:53 Never. Apart from maybe if there was a young baby and one person had to go to work and one person didn't. That I get, but that's temporary. And ideally people would find ways to make up for that. I mean, I guess you're in a bit of a love bubble with the oxytocin from the baby at that time, so that is quite neuroprotective. But co-sleeping is, it's, it's fundamental to our survival. It was physically when we were in the cave, but now I would say emotionally, spiritually, it's fundamental

Dr Tara Swart 30:28 to our survival. I mean-

Steven Bartlett 30:29 What do you mean by co-sleeping, just to clarify?

Dr Tara Swart 30:31 Sleeping together.So, mostly in, you know, in our society, that's as a couple. But a lot of other cultures, the whole family sleeps together.

Steven Bartlett 30:41 Why would you never do it? You, you seemed quite passionate about that.

Dr Tara Swart 30:44 Because I ... It's so good for you. The bonding, the physical warmth, the skin-to-skin contact. The love, the trust, you know. I mean, I'll put up... If some- if somebody's waking up early and I don't have to wake up at that time, I'll, I'll even put up with that.

Steven Bartlett 31:00 So you'll have less quality sleep?

Dr Tara Swart 31:02 It won't be less quality sleep. I've worn HRV monitors and shown that even at the time, if my husband woke up at 5:00 and I wouldn't wake up any, like, at all before 8:00, and he gave me a kiss goodbye, I got a spike of resilience at that time.

Steven Bartlett 31:18 Resilience?

Dr Tara Swart 31:18 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 31:19 How, how do you measure that?

Dr Tara Swart 31:21 So I was using that Finnish technology, um, where you wear the HRV monitor with a gel pad on your chest. Um, and so it's color-coded for whether you're doing light exercise, heavy exercise, whether you're stressed, or whether you're recouping resilience. And mostly people recoup resilience overnight. But, um, you know, you could clearly see with people with young children, you could see when they were woken up overnight because it would go into stress. Some people recoup resilience during the day if, you know, let's say you're like with your partner or your sibling and you're just sitting together and it's super relaxed, or if you love your job, you know, that you can see that happening during the day as well. But because I am so obsessed with my sleep, I wouldn't normally welcome any sleep disturbance. But the power of sleeping together and cuddling all night is so neuro-protective that I would encourage everybody to do it if they can. I also know some people who say, "Oh, I sleep better if I sleep on my own." Um, but we were not meant to survive on our own. We are meant to survive as part of a tribe. And I think now, you know, since the pandemic, people are more lost and lonely and disconnected than ever. If you've got somebody that you can (laughs) actually sleep with overnight, I strongly suggest that you do it.

Steven Bartlett 32:48 So, t- I wanna go in that direction because I'm super compelled by that.

Dr Tara Swart 32:50 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 32:51 The, the change in the world and the lost, the lonely, the disconnected.

Dr Tara Swart 32:53 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 32:53 But just to pause for a second on this word resilience you're using linked to heart rate variability.

Dr Tara Swart 32:58 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 32:58 You, you're talking about like a physiological resilience, like a, the body being more resilient, versus the kinda... When we talk about resilience, we, we, we say it in m- more of a psychological context of like, I can withstand greater stress or pressure.

Dr Tara Swart 33:13 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 33:13 But your ... You used a heart rate var- um, variability monitor that measures the distance between heartbeats, and saw that when your husband gave you a kiss, your heart rate variability increased, which means that your body was more physiologically resilient.

Dr Tara Swart 33:30 It actually measures both.

Steven Bartlett 33:31 Okay.

Dr Tara Swart 33:31 Because it compares your heart rate variability to your heart rate.

Steven Bartlett 33:35 Okay.

Dr Tara Swart 33:35 So it knows if you're exercising because your heart rate has gone up. But if your heart rate is at, like, base level, then the ... So the ... Then, then the var- the change in variability can either mean that you're stressed or you're recouping resilience. If your heart rate is high, then it's obviously ph- physical. Um, but it, it's a f- it's a factor of both. So it's not just looking at physical resilient. It's, it is looking... When, when it's in this turquoise zone, that is actually more about recouping psychological resilience. But those two things, you know, they feed into each other, but it can tell the difference 'cause of your heart rate. So obviously I was asleep, so my heart rate was low. Um-

Steven Bartlett 34:16 And you saw what on the monitor when he gave you a kiss?

Dr Tara Swart 34:17 I literally saw a sp- But... 'Cause it can... Does it by every 15 minutes as well. And I saw the highest spike of turquoise at that exact time.

Steven Bartlett 34:26 It's funny 'cause my, um, girlfriend a couple, about a month ago or two months ago, I left the house quite early in the morning, maybe about this, a similar time, 6:00 AM in the morning, when she was still in bed. And I came up to her and gave her like a big kiss. I basically kissed all around her f- This is so soppy.

Dr Tara Swart 34:41 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 34:41 I kissed all around her face and on her nose and just gave her a big, big hug and stuff and I walked away. Like got on a, got o- got in a taxi and left, whatever. And she said to me, the same day or the day after, she went, "I don't know what happened there, but it unlocked something in me." And, you know. Then my girlfriend went on to say she had, um, had a, some challenges with her menstrual cycle and it, and she came (fingers snap) on her period.

Dr Tara Swart 35:05 That's amazing. I love that.

Steven Bartlett 35:06 And she's always right. Like, when she says things to me, and she knows this, but I give her her credit. I'm always skeptical 'cause we think differently.

Dr Tara Swart 35:13 Yeah. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 35:13 She's quite spiritual. I'm very like, "I need some science."

Dr Tara Swart 35:16 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 35:17 And, um, she said that to me and I just thought, "Ugh. A kiss and a hug in the morning hasn't, couldn't have had any physiological impact on her."

Dr Tara Swart 35:24 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 35:24 But, um, now I'm starting to question whether once again I was wrong.

Dr Tara Swart 35:29 (laughs) That's amazing. I mean, you know, some of these things can't necessarily immediately be explained by science.

Steven Bartlett 35:37 Yeah.

Dr Tara Swart 35:38 But if you use your intuition, then you have to ask yourself. And I feel like you are coming round to thinking that could be true.

Steven Bartlett 35:45 When I'm, when I'm given a reason-

Dr Tara Swart 35:46 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 35:46 ... I accept things.

Dr Tara Swart 35:47 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 35:47 If, you know, if there's even, even a sliver of science that could justify it, then I, I can run into ideas.

Dr Tara Swart 35:53 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 35:53 But I do need the science. Do you think that men and women are different in terms of their intuition and their, their ability to un- You're smiling. Their ability to kind of understand some of these forces that exist in the air? Because my girlfriend seems to be so attuned to feelings and intuition-

Dr Tara Swart 36:10 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 36:11 ... and, and I'm less so.

Dr Tara Swart 36:13 Yeah. So if ... Let's, let's put it like this. If you had 100 people in a room, 50 men and 50 women, and you asked them to line up in order of height, not all the men would be taller than all the women. In the middle, there'd be a bit of a mixture. And it's like that with the brain and intuition and everything else. So yeah, there are some-... there's some disparity, so I think most people would agree that it feels like more women are in touch with their intuition than men. But it's absolutely not all women versus all men.

Steven Bartlett 36:45 Do you believe women are more in touch with their intuition?

Dr Tara Swart 36:47 (clicks tongue) I think they're more open to accepting that it's a thing, and I believe that the me- more men need the science to explain how intuition works.

Steven Bartlett 36:57 Interesting. I wonder if there was, like, a brai- a neurological reason for that? I think there'd be more women and men that believed in intuition, and those, like, f- feelings that are hard to explain and the-

Dr Tara Swart 37:09 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 37:09 ... you know?

Dr Tara Swart 37:09 That's changed a lot. I mean, I remember when I was teaching at MIT about seven years ago, and I was t- teaching the science of intuition. Someone actually stood... Uh, they're, you know, it's all senior leaders in the classroom, so executive education. Um, someone stood up and said, "Well, I'm not gonna make a really important decision, like hire or fire, based on my gut feeling, am I?" And he was quite young, and quite a few of the older guys turned round and were like, "That's absolutely how I would make my decision and my most important decisions." But at that time, it was still kind of like not everybody was really sure that that's, like, your superpower. But I think people are beginning to understand more that with age and experience and wisdom, you do understand that intuition is actually your strongest- sh- should be your strongest decision-making modality.

Steven Bartlett 37:57 What is intuition?

Dr Tara Swart 37:59 (clicks tongue) So because you can't remember everything that you've experienced in your whole life,

Dr Tara Swart 38:04 but, you know, somewhere in the neural architecture and, and, you know, in the gut neurons as well, that information is stored 'cause you have experienced it. So maybe you would say that you understand that wisdom and experience is the product of patterns that you've seen repeating in your life that are conscious to you. Intuition is the lessons that you've picked up along the way that you're not conscious of, but they're still stored in your nervous system. And so, the less conscious you are of them, the deeper they're pushed into the nervous system. So there's a process called Hebbian learning, named after the neuroscientist Donald Hebb, and that is... Ch- it's basically, you know, neurons that fire together, wire together. But it's that the things that you've learnt today, like things that you've learnt by speaking with me, that's gonna be very front of mind, and kind of just in, like, little pathways that are just kind of connecting up with each other. But stuff that you learnt when you were five, like when you put your hand in a fire and it burnt you, and you never, ever want to do that again, that's deep down. You're not really conscious of that, but, you know... And, and other things, maybe, that you don't recall. So we believe that your, that wisdom gets pushed from the outer cortex into the limbic system, which is the m- emotional system of the brain, into the brain stem, into the spinal cord, and into the gut neurons. And that's why they sometimes call it gut instinct, because it's that feeling of knowing something, but not knowing why you know it. Um, but it's actually to do with the fact that you have wisdom and experience that is... It's in, it's, it's embodied in you, but you're not conscious of it necessarily.

Steven Bartlett 39:49 (clicks tongue) It's quite surprising to hear that those memories, that wisdom, could be in the gut.

Dr Tara Swart 39:56 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 39:56 People think of... You know, I think, I'm certainly someone who always thought that my cognition, my memories, and my (clicks tongue) all of the intelligence exists just in my brain.

Dr Tara Swart 40:07 Your memories and your cognition and your IQ are in your brain, but your intuition is in your brain and your gut.

Steven Bartlett 40:19 This sounds super stupid, but I don't care. I should just be, I should just be honest about my stupidity. Where in my gut? (laughs) I'm, like... I thought that was, like, my stomach. That's where I put the food.

Dr Tara Swart 40:29 Yeah. So, you know, you've got your stomach, you've got your small intestine, you've got your large intestine.

Steven Bartlett 40:34 Yeah.

Dr Tara Swart 40:34 You have other organs, your liver, your spleen, your kidneys. And they're all innervated, which means they've all got nerves going into them. So does your heart. So, you know, we could, we could have a similar conversation like this about your heart as well, because your heart only knows how to beat because of the nerves that, that penetrate it. So, you know, this round brain in here and the spinal cord that goes down the center of your back, that gives rise to all of the neurons that go out to your arms, your legs, all of your organs, your skin, which is your largest organ. And so that's, that's how that works, because every single part of your body has nerve, uh, nerve cells, or, you know, nerve pathways in them, so that's the connection. That's brings us back to what, you know, what, what I was saying about the brain-body connection, that they're intimately connected and it's a bidirectional thing. It's, they can't exist without each other. And the more you understand that there's that constant feedback going back and forth, the more you can tap into that kind of thing, the more you can know days before you're gonna get sick. I bet your girlfriend knows days before she's gonna get a cold or flu.

Steven Bartlett 41:44 Yes, she does.

Dr Tara Swart 41:45 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 41:45 All the time.

Dr Tara Swart 41:46 And my clients never know, and as soon as they go on holiday, they're sick the whole week.

Steven Bartlett 41:53 Why, why when they go on holiday?

Dr Tara Swart 41:55 Because they suppress it to be able to do their job.

Steven Bartlett 41:58 And you can suppress illness, or you can just not, uh, not, not acknowledge it?

Dr Tara Swart 42:01 It's all, it's, it's not necessarily that they had a cold virus that they suppressed, but it's that their body is... You know, the immune system is being run down by the cortisol, and so as soon as it gets a break, that's when it kind of succumbs. Um, and there was a time, after the financial crisis, when I had people saying, "I've had, th- you know, I've had this cold for, like, four weeks now, or six weeks, but everybody's got it." And I was like, "I'm sorry, but do you actually think that's normal? Do you think it's normal to have a cold for more than a week?" And...... you know, then it- it's- it takes a challenge like that because also the other thing that happens in, you know, with group think, whether it's at work or in your social circle, is that we don't challenge each other enough on those sort of things. So if a friend said, "Oh, I've had this cold for six weeks," I might say, "Oh, poor you," but if- I- I wouldn't, but someone might (laughs) . But, um, you know, it's also about saying, "Is there something else wrong?" Because that's not- that's not usual, um, and for me, that would absolutely lead back to cortisol.

Steven Bartlett 43:06 A second ago, we were gonna go down the pathway of the looming crisis that you speak about. What is the looming crisis that you're concerned about?

Dr Tara Swart 43:16 Stephen, I- I saw this looming at the beginning of the pandemic. It's not looming anymore, it is we are in crisis. So, you know, all of the health anxiety and the uncertainty and the fear and the loss that we experienced, um, during the pandemic was bad enough, you know, it caused a- a level of stress that no one who's alive today has experienced before. Um, but we've come out of it, you know, we're relatively, I don't know if I could say back to normal or in the new normal, and we have not paid any attention to the consequences of what happened to us. And when I say "us", I mean everyone from the babies that were born at that time that never saw anyone but their immediate family, the teenagers that... Interestingly, boys did better than girls because they play video games on the internet so they stayed connected.

Dr Tara Swart 44:12 You know, the older people that were isolated, the people that, like, lost loved ones, etc. Like, there's so many things, I could say more things than that. We- we haven't really acknowledged that that's what happened and what we went through. We... Most people are not really understanding what's changed for them or what's going on for them at the moment as a result of that, and we certainly haven't made any plan for the future. Um, you know I'm really into, like, indig- indigenous wisdom at the moment, and one of the things I've learned about the first Americans is that when they make a big decision for their community, they imagine the impact of that decision seven generations into the future. We don't even think about one generation into the future. We just think about, like, what's going on right now. W- w- we don't even really think about our own future, like, some of the time. I remember thinking, like literally in March of 2020, "This is gonna be a mental health crisis, like, whatever happens physically." A- and as time went on, more so I thought, "Mental health crisis, mental health crisis." And then I started to think, "Okay, what else could it be?" And I had time, of course, to indulge in some of the other areas of interest that I couldn't when I was, like, traveling and working full-on, so I, you know, started reading more about spirituality and ancient cultures and stuff. And I thought, "This could be a spiritual revolution."

Steven Bartlett 45:43 When you say spiritual revolution, it's a very big, broad term.

Dr Tara Swart 45:49 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 45:50 What do you mean?

Dr Tara Swart 45:52 If I look back, and- and you've, you know, you've led a very nice story of- of my- my journey since I changed career, is that it started off with that physical piece, you know. For me, where I was working there was stress but people were having heart attacks. Then I spent many years working on mental resilience with people, um, and emotional regulation was part of that, and that became important again in the pandemic because we were in, like, close quarters with people and, you know, a- and it was just very different and it was hard and there was homeschooling and working and everything. Um, what I've seen as a... Some of the good things that I've seen as a result of the pandemic is that we've definitely appreciated again the importance

Dr Tara Swart 46:32 of our time in nature. Um, so I think most of us felt that, that, you know, being able to get out and be somewhere green was really important. And because there was, like, no planes and no traffic, you know, we could see the stars in the sky again, we saw amazing sunsets, we... People began to appreciate birdsong. And n- now the studies are showing that time spent in nature actually has a really positive impact on your physical health, your mental health, and your longevity. So, you know, that's one good thing that's come out of it. But are we all still, you know, making time for that or are we just going back to kind of our old ways? The other thing- things of interest that have come out is that having a purpose that transcends

Dr Tara Swart 47:13 yourself is really important to your, um, mental health particularly, but it will have knock-on effects. So, you know, you could say, "Well, I do my podcast and I love doing my podcast and I get to meet interesting people and I, you know, I share that knowledge with others." A lot of that is still to do with self-satisfaction. So having something that doesn't necessarily do anything for you but gives you purpose in life is really important.

Steven Bartlett 47:44 And what could that be? That could be...

Dr Tara Swart 47:48 That could be volunteering, it could be, um, you know, f- for... You know, for me, like, I- I give out a lot of free information on Instagram that... And- and not for to try to get work or anything like that. Um, it could be... So, you know, when I say volunteering, that sounds quite big, but it could be, like, asking your elderly neighbor if you can do their groceries for them when you go to the supermarket. Um, it could be calling up a friend and checking that they're okay. Just something that makes you feel like life is worth living, but doesn't necessarily earn you money or directly improve your life.

Steven Bartlett 48:25 I've spoken to a lot of therapists who talk about the fact that we... Two of the things we never want to feel is like we're, A, different, and B, we're not enough. And I was thinking about that through the lens of our tribes. In a- in the context of a tribe, if I was different, there was a risk of me being kicked off the tribe. And if I w- didn't feel like I was enough, I- I...... again, would have a risk of being kicked out of the tribe because I'm not valuable to the tribe-

Dr Tara Swart 48:47 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 48:47 ... and in the context of what you were saying about serving others, is that, again, sort of like a prehistoric desire to, um, feel like we're adding value and we are of use to the tribe by serving the greater good of the, of our tribe? Is that where that instinct comes from in us?

Dr Tara Swart 49:02 I love what you've done, which is exactly what I said, which is when I, when I'm not sure of the answer, I'll go back to evolution-

Steven Bartlett 49:08 Mm-hmm.

Dr Tara Swart 49:08 ... and-

Steven Bartlett 49:08 I always do that (0:20:31) in traffic.

Dr Tara Swart 49:09 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 49:09 Yeah.

Dr Tara Swart 49:10 I love that. I think I hadn't thought of it like that, exactly like that before, but I think it's true. Uh, you know, a tribe, sadly, could not afford to carry dead weight. So if you weren't enough, you know, if you were injured, if you were immobile, if you were elderly, if you weren't contributing, then you might get left behind. And then there's this, um, really interesting new area of research called neuroesthetics or neuroarts, which is about having some kind of creative activity in your regular schedule. So, um, there's, there's lots of research that shows that if you're not doing something creative once a week, and that could be dance, music, painting, drawing, going to the theater, reading a novel, so really quite broad, time and nature actually is included in it, then because nature is the palette that we all love. You know, you could have different taste in art or music to me, but all humans love nature 'cause we've always been in that, that beauty. So the impact of that on your mental health and your physical health and your longevity is huge as well. But even just like every morning, I actually thought of this this morning 'cause I, I wanted to mention this, but I had zested a lemon last night when I was cooking, and so this morning, when I went to get the milk out of the fridge, I, I smelt it 'cause it was in the fridge and I just thought, "That is so (laughs) beautiful." And so they say things like, you know, if you've put like a bunch of flowers on your bedside table and it smells nice and that's the first thing you smell in the morning and then you, like, look at the beautiful flowers, if you've got objects of beauty in your house, if you listen to birdsong in the morning, that, that's all neuroesthetics. It's living a life that is aesthetically pleasing to your brain, and that's good for your health.

Steven Bartlett 50:53 Why?

Dr Tara Swart 50:54 Um, should we go back to evolution?

Steven Bartlett 50:59 Yeah.

Dr Tara Swart 50:59 Shall I make a guess for you?

Steven Bartlett 51:00 Please. That's my f- favorite thing to do.

Dr Tara Swart 51:02 (laughs) I think it's to do with safety. So if you are able to spare your mental resources to appreciate beauty, that must mean that you're safe. That must mean that you're not just trying to survive. So it's actually ... I mean, we do appreciate beauty, so s- seeing, smelling, h- you know, hearing, tasting nice things, it's gonna make us feel better. But also, we're only gonna be doing that if we have the luxury of being able to do that, but then it can be such small things. But also what it signals to your brain is, "I'm safe because I have time to read a novel," or, "I have time to crank the music up and dance around my living room."

Steven Bartlett 51:45 Through the frame of this idea that pathways that fire together wire together, I was also thinking about every time I've seen a tree, I've been safe. So is there an association that trees are safety? You know what I mean? Every time I've been out in nature-

Dr Tara Swart 52:00 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 52:00 ... I've been physiologically, psychologically safe. So is it now the case that because there's that neurological association, the pathways have wired and fired together, if I ... You know, you talk about the brain-body response. If I put myself in that situation again-

Dr Tara Swart 52:13 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 52:13 ... it will signal to my body that I'm safe.

Dr Tara Swart 52:15 Yeah. It will. It ... That's neuroplasticity. It's the, it's repeating that and giving yourself the message that, "Every time I'm around trees, I'm safe. I feel safe." It won't be the same for everyone. I would imagine that, again, when we lived in the cave, that we naturally did things like looked at the stars in the sky at night, danced around the fire, did cave paintings, um, so that's very wired into our, our psyche as well. Um, you know, they would adorn themselves a lot more than we do. So that appreciation of aesthetics has always been there, not ... and not just from nature, from some of our rituals and ceremonies as well. And really, the conclusion that I've come to with this whole spiritual crisis and, and then the potential revolution is that all the things that we need to go through that revolution have always been in the world as long as we've existed. And that, to me, is beautiful because it's not like we have to do some crazy, new, different things that we've never thought of before. We can ... The way that I put it is, we know about generational trauma and intergenerational trauma and epigenetics and how all these bad things can, like, come down the line, but there's also a lot of beauty and wisdom that's there that we can have access to. It's, it's ... We don't have to, like, reinvent the wheel at all. We can just go back to doing the things that we did when we were at peace.

Steven Bartlett 53:50 It's interesting. But it ... but that's not gonna ... that's not easy to do in the world we live in 'cause we've built a society and a world where-

Dr Tara Swart 53:56 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 53:57 ... uh, we live in these, like, white, four white walls in cities alone.

Dr Tara Swart 54:02 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 54:02 We're more lonely than ever before. We order our food using glass screens. We use pornography as a replacement for intimacy and, and connection.

Dr Tara Swart 54:12 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 54:12 We use social networks instead of socializing. Internet connection has reduced real connection. How ... You'd have to, like, completely redesign society, it seems.

Dr Tara Swart 54:24 You can start with yourself. So, I completely agree with what, all those things that you've just said is how most people live, but I don't live like that.

Steven Bartlett 54:36 How do you live, Doctor?

Dr Tara Swart 54:38 (laughs) Um, I, I actively try to spend as much time in nature as I can, and I have, like, a lot of, like, plants and flowers in and around my house.I am very, very careful about who's in my tribe. So it's positive, meaningful, deep spiritual relationships. Um, I... don't use pornography or dating apps. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 55:11 (laughs)

Dr Tara Swart 55:12 I'm just going through your list. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 55:14 (laughs) Yeah.

Dr Tara Swart 55:15 Um, yeah. And I, you know, I try-

Steven Bartlett 55:18 What do you think of pornography on the brain?

Dr Tara Swart 55:21 I mean, the two most basic drives in the brain are sex and food. So, the potential impact is, is huge. Um, I agree with you that increasingly it has created a big disconnect between men and women in real life, which is really sad.

Steven Bartlett 55:42 Wh- what is that disconnect?

Dr Tara Swart 55:45 Um, I think that the ideal of what a woman has to be or can be is very distorted by pornography.

Steven Bartlett 55:53 Mm-hmm.

Dr Tara Swart 55:54 Um, I think if I put together, you know, what I hear from my friends about dating apps with that, that the way that people feel they can treat others has really, really changed. And I think this has accelerated since the pandemic as well. Um, so this real lack of empathy for the consequences of your actions and comments on other people. And I think pornography contributes to that because it changes the way that men view women. Um, I think the impact on women in terms of what you have to look like, like how much plastic surgery you have to have, what you've got to be prepared to, like, do in an intimate relationship, or, or actually, b- the biggest issue I would have is what you're expected to do when you're not even in an intimate relationship. You know, just when it becomes more of a transaction, when the rules have changed about, you know, again, what I hear now very commonly is, "Oh, well, we've been on three or four or five dates," or whatever it is. "That must mean, you know, move to the next level kind of thing." So, I think, like, going back to having, like, really respectful relationships, having a lot of empathy for other people, looking out for the people in your life that might be lonelier than you, um, when I s- you know, I mean, I absolutely do not have my phone in my bedroom, but when I say limit screen time, that is a difficult one because we all use our screens for work and to communicate with our friends. But there are studies that show the amount of time you spend even communicating with friends online versus face-to-face has all sorts of impacts in terms of, like, how, like, socially comfortable you are, how empathic you are. It can even have, on teenagers, a really big impact on body dysmorphism. So, it's fine to actually spend quite a lot of time online as long as you are also spending a lot of time with people face-to-face.

Steven Bartlett 57:55 One of the things you said there was about limiting who's in your tribe.

Dr Tara Swart 57:58 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 57:59 W- why is that important? Why is it important to not hang around with certain people and spend more time with other people from, like, a neurological perspective, in terms of our health and our outlooks and our outcomes and neuroplasticity?

Dr Tara Swart 58:13 So if we just, like, link this back a little bit to the question that you Googled, which is, "Is stress contagious?" Then there's another rabbit hole you could go down which would be about social contagion. So there are statistics that show that in your social group, if someone gets divorced, you're more likely to get divorced in the next year. If someone in your social group is obese, you're more likely to become obese. Now, I'm not s- uh, absolutely not saying don't be friends with someone because they got divorced or they put on weight. But I'm s- I'm talking more about the attitudinal stuff. So the, you know, how you treat other people, how kind you are, how generous you are, how open you are to conversations about intuition or spirituality. Basically, you meet people who are at a similar psychological level to you. And so, we're always working on ourselves hopefully, and you wanna be with people... I- if you are, then you wanna be with people who are growing too, who are open to challenge, who are learning, who are interested in exploring spirituality, um, who care about their mental health and other people's mental health. So it is really about, you know, having this, this circle of trust. And knowing that you've got support, but equally that if you do something that's really not okay, that somebody's gonna tell you.

Steven Bartlett 59:37 You mentioned the word earlier, neuroplasticity. What is it? Why did it matter? And I think from looking at your work previously, you had a bit of an epiphany on this subject matter in your career where you realized that, you know... Uh, p- probably like most, you know, most people don't even think it's a thing. They don't think it's... They think that once you grow up, you're set in your ways.

Dr Tara Swart 59:58 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 59:58 But it sounds like there was an epiphany at some point in your career where you

Steven Bartlett 1:00:01 realized the importance and the possibilities that neuroplasticity presented.

Dr Tara Swart 1:00:04 Well, we have to start by saying that when I was at medical school and doing my PhD in neuroscience, we did not know about neuroplasticity. So we absolutely thought that when you physically stopped growing, that everything in your brain was set for the rest of your life, that you couldn't change your intelligence, you couldn't learn to manage your emotions differently, um, that it would be much harder to learn new things. What we know now is that the brain is actively growing and changing till we're about 25. And-

Steven Bartlett 1:00:34 Fuck.

Dr Tara Swart 1:00:35 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:00:35 I missed it.

Dr Tara Swart 1:00:36 (laughs) No, you didn't. You didn't miss it. (laughs) You didn't miss it.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:39 I'm 31. I know I look 24, but... (laughs)

Dr Tara Swart 1:00:41 You didn't miss, you didn't miss it. So from 25 to 65, and I would say even beyond now, if you don't do anything to change your brain, it will tend to plateau. So, you know, if you're in a job where you do the same thing every day and you're pretty good at it, you could stay like that for the rest of your life. And that is fine for some people.... if you do things to, that are intense enough to force your brain to change, then you can basically, you know, learn lots of new things, but also get what we call global benefits in your brain. So let's say you decided to learn a new language. Maybe you'd learn Portuguese or French.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:17 Have you spoken to her?

Dr Tara Swart 1:01:20 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:01:20 Have you spoken to her?

Dr Tara Swart 1:01:21 No. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:01:23 That just felt very... It feels like, you know, when someone says something to you and it feels like they've already had a conversation behind your back 'cause it's so (laughs) on the money? No, I actually have a deal with her this year that I'd learn Portuguese by the end of the year, and we're in September now.

Dr Tara Swart 1:01:35 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:01:36 And I know six words, so that just felt a little bit close to home. So, um, let's move on.

Dr Tara Swart 1:01:42 So, so, that's great. So you have actually a reason to learn one or two languages. If you do that, your brain will not only get the benefits of being able to speak French or Portuguese, but you will actually improve your executive functions. Now, these are the highest functions of the brain, things like, um, being able to regulate your emotions better, solve complex problems, think flexibly, think creatively, override any conscious or unconscious biases that you may have. These are great benefits to get from actually just doing something like learning a language or a musical instrument. Um, and it can be smaller things like travel, interacting with people who've had a different life to you, cooking something new, taking a different route to work, reading a newspaper or a magazine that's very different to what you normally read.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:32 Doing a podcast?

Dr Tara Swart 1:02:33 (laughs) Well, you do this every day.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:36 Yeah, exactly.

Dr Tara Swart 1:02:36 Yeah, so it's not inducing neuroplasticity in your brain. Although, you're learning new things.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:40 But I'm meeting different people.

Dr Tara Swart 1:02:40 Yeah, you're meeting different people, you're learning new things. But it's probably not what we would call attention intense enough-

Steven Bartlett 1:02:48 Really?

Dr Tara Swart 1:02:48 ... to actually be shifting pathways in your brain.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:51 Oh. So having all these conversations isn't, like, expanding my...

Dr Tara Swart 1:02:55 It is in terms of your, like, the facts that you're learning.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:58 Yeah.

Dr Tara Swart 1:02:59 But your actual process of, you know, finding a person, doing a bit of research into them, meeting them, having a conversation with them, being good at asking them certain questions, that's a very natural pathway for you. So you, you're, you know, you're, you're getting better and better at it, but that's not a new, big change in your brain.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:21 So what... Okay, right. So I think when people hear about neuroplasticity, when I first heard about th- that it was even a thing, it was a revelation that a- we could do things to change our brains. What is, what is it that people typically want from neuroplasticity? They wanna be someone else in other ways. They want new habits. They want new ways of thinking. They wanna stop being a negative thinker or an over-thinker in-

Dr Tara Swart 1:03:42 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:42 ... certain situations. If I wanted to, to, to stop being an over-thinker or-

Dr Tara Swart 1:03:46 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:46 ... a negative thinker-

Dr Tara Swart 1:03:46 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:47 ... or if I wanted to, um... You know, there's certain habits we all have and that I have in my life that I'm like, "I just feel like it's me now."

Dr Tara Swart 1:03:57 Yeah, like procrastination.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:59 Procrastination shows up sometimes.

Dr Tara Swart 1:04:01 (laughs) I'm just saying that because of not learning the lesson. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:04:03 I think in all good... Yeah, who have you spoken to? I'm joking. No, I don't, I don't procrastinate too much 'cause I don't really have a choice these days. I procrastinate on some things. I think we all do, things that I find-

Dr Tara Swart 1:04:11 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, we all do.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:12 Um-

Dr Tara Swart 1:04:13 No, I'm really glad you've taken this into the intangible 'cause obviously I use the analogy of language as a great one to help people understand that you, you learn something new, it builds up that pathway in your brain, it shifts your brain around, it has other benefits. But what people are really looking for is changing habits and behaviors that are not serving them in life.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:31 Yeah.

Dr Tara Swart 1:04:32 So whether it's-

Steven Bartlett 1:04:33 Lack of motivation.

Dr Tara Swart 1:04:34 Yeah, lack of motivation, over-thinker, negative thinker, lose your, lose your temper, um, uh, you know, sort of feel very stuck, people pleasing, you know, like so many things.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:49 Mood reactions and react to things.

Dr Tara Swart 1:04:51 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So the process for that, which is underpinned by neuroplasticity, like the physiology of what happens in the brain, is raised awareness. So let's say that you've, you know, you've had a relationship breakup, again, for the similar reasons, and you know, wh- whatever happened before. So then you get to a point, and you're like, "Okay, last time, I just kind of didn't really deal with that and just moved onto the next relationship. Now I'm beginning to see there's a pattern. I think I need to do something different."

Steven Bartlett 1:05:19 Step one is spot the pattern?

Dr Tara Swart 1:05:20 And step one is 50% of the battle. So, you know, once you know, "Okay, this is a thing that I think, or I believe, or I do, that comes out with a result that I don't want," that is half the battle. So once you've done that, you don't try to change anything straightaway. The next stage is called focused attention. So you look around in your life, at work, in your personal life, in, like, you know, sports, if you play sports, um, with different types of people, and through your past. "Where are the times that I've done that? What, what, what triggers me into doing that, or what pushes me into doing that?"

Steven Bartlett 1:05:57 Let me give you an example-

Dr Tara Swart 1:05:58 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:58 ... so we can work through this, uh, these steps with an example. Got a friend in my life that repeatedly dates people who are married or in a relationship.

Dr Tara Swart 1:06:08 Oh. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:06:09 And it ends how you'd expect it to end-

Dr Tara Swart 1:06:11 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:11 ... in her heartbreak.

Dr Tara Swart 1:06:13 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:13 But it's this spiral she's on.

Dr Tara Swart 1:06:15 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:15 So step one would be becoming aware of this pattern. You're dating people that are in this... For some reason, you're...

Dr Tara Swart 1:06:22 So in this case, that is obvious. If you're, if you're getting into relationships with people who are already attached, you know, you're aware of that. What I would want to dig into-

Steven Bartlett 1:06:32 You'd be surprised.

Dr Tara Swart 1:06:32 ... with her is what it is that she believes about herself that makes her think that that's okay. And I'm imagining already that there must be a, a level of self-worth that is, has struggled, you know, and maybe there's something in her childhood that's caused that. But you would only do that if you didn't believe that you deserved someone of your own. So that's the kind of conversation I would have with someone like that. I would, I would probably ask her, like, "You know, what, what goes through your mind when you decide to do that again?"...

Dr Tara Swart 1:07:04 and she would say something that, that she's conscious of thinking, I would want to dig below that and, and ask what it is that she believes about herself that makes her think that. So that's quite an important part of the raised awareness, is getting below the thought into the belief. Next step is, well, certainly if, if she's got a history of this, is, you know, maybe in journaling, acknowledging, writing down, "Okay. This time that I went out with someone that was, you know, kind of engaged in a relationship with someone else," or, "This time I had an affair with a married man. What happened?" Like, that decision-making process, the point from which you agreed to get into that, what was the consequence? So really, that's the focused attention, marrying together that decision with the consequence. You know, one of the things I say is, "You are basically the sum of every decision that you've made in your life. That's who you are." So once there's a bit more understanding and attention around, like, what causes that and how it happens, the next stage is deliberate practice. So the first challenge is going to be the next time she meets a man who's not available, and she may not yet be able to say no to that. She may have to make another mistake, but she'll make it armed with all the knowledge that she's got now, and she'll see it for what it is. Or she will be able to say no to that man this time. So the next step is deliberate practice, which is where you say, "Okay. I used to behave like this. Uh, this is the, the new me that I want to be is somebody who says no to every man that's married, who, um, you know, replaces every negative thought with a positive thought," or whatever it is that you're working on. You then look for scenarios to practice this new behavior. And at first, it will be hard because you have a pathway there that may have been set since childhood that is used to doing a certain thing, and the brain is a very energy-hungry organ, so it's, it's always trying to use the path of least resistance. Let's say I'm an over-thinker, okay, and you're asking me these questions, and I've got this voice in the back of my head saying, "Why is Stephen asking me that? What's he trying to get to? Is he trying to trick me?" What I would, what I would try to do is silence that voice in my head and say, "Okay. In this podcast with Stephen, I'm gonna focus on him. I'm gonna take his questions for what they are, and I'm gonna speak from my area of expertise. I'm not gonna worry about that other stuff that, you know, can go on in my head." And let's say this time I manage to do that 50% of the time, and then I go and do another podcast next week and I manage to do it 75% of the time, and you know, and so on. Eventually, this new pathway that I've been building will become stronger than the one that I had before, and then every time I turn up for a podcast, I'll just be completely present and attentive, and I'll get to the end of it and that's the new me now.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:49 So behaviors that we repeat. So let's start- starting at the beginning of those three steps, the first step is becoming aware of the pattern in our lives, the second step is becoming really cognizant of the pain or the consequences of that pattern-

Dr Tara Swart 1:10:05 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:05 ... and the third step is kind of like setting an in- an intention for who we wanna become-

Dr Tara Swart 1:10:09 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:10 ... and the goals we have,

Steven Bartlett 1:10:11 and then practicing it as much as possible.

Dr Tara Swart 1:10:13 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:14 And that is the three steps to-

Dr Tara Swart 1:10:16 The fourth s-

Steven Bartlett 1:10:17 Well, there's a fourth. Okay.

Dr Tara Swart 1:10:17 It's not a step, but the fourth factor is accountability-

Steven Bartlett 1:10:20 Okay.

Dr Tara Swart 1:10:20 ... because most people, left to their own devices, will give up on that process when it ge- feels too hard.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:26 That's step three.

Dr Tara Swart 1:10:27 Yeah. Um, so, you know, with years of practice and journaling, I have become better at holding myself accountable, but for most people, there's gotta be some external, so it could be a friend. Um, one of the reasons I'm a big fan of doing these action boards is that there's a very tangible thing in front of you that with images of what you said you wanted to achieve this year, which you can clearly, and your friends and family can see, at the end of the year whether you did or you didn't. Um, and you know, of course, you can have an actual, like, professional person that is there, like your language teacher, to hold you accountable too. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:11:07 We're gonna have to edit this out 'cause you really are pushing this. (laughs)

Dr Tara Swart 1:11:10 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:11:10 You've got an agenda here. (laughs) I, I've been really... You s- talked earlier about, just a second ago, about how when you're trying to create a new pathway-

Dr Tara Swart 1:11:19 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:19 ... if there's an existing one-

Dr Tara Swart 1:11:20 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:21 ... that is very well-established from your childhood-

Dr Tara Swart 1:11:24 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:25 ... it's increasingly harder. So I've always been unorganized. I lived- I grew up in a home that was- looked like an atomic bomb had hit it.

Dr Tara Swart 1:11:32 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:33 It was just a shit show inside. It was an absolute mess. So that habit of just being messy is quite well-established, the pathway in my brain of being messy is well-established.

Dr Tara Swart 1:11:42 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:43 But more broadly, I'm thinking here about trauma-

Dr Tara Swart 1:11:45 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:45 ... and how trauma looks in the brain-

Dr Tara Swart 1:11:46 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:47 ... when we've had really traumatic early experiences in our life, or in the context of my friend, we might have learned that we're not deserving of someone, or we- we're not worthy, or we, you know, we're not enough, or we're different.

Dr Tara Swart 1:11:57 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:57 That might be a really well-established pathway.

Dr Tara Swart 1:12:00 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:00 Does- doesn't that suggest that there are some behavior patterns that are just practically immovable, practically unchangeable?

Dr Tara Swart 1:12:09 Mm-hmm. Um, I don't want to say yes to that, but what I am gonna say is we've moved away from using this term hardwired, which kind of means, like, it's there forever, and we talk about soft-wiring now because of neuroplasticity. I know people who have been through incredible amounts of trauma, there's gonna be an example coming up on my podcast soon, who has done so much work on herself that she's really in a beautiful place as a psychologist and a Vedic astrologer helping other people learn to deal with their trauma. So, there's a lot that can happen. She was clearly a very resilient person and got herself educated. Some people deal with the consequences of trauma for the rest of their life and, you know, it runs their life, and it's, it's sad. Um, you may not be able to deal with every single thing that you've experienced, or the full extent of what you've experienced, but I do believe that there's a lot that everybody can do.

Steven Bartlett 1:13:07 Earlier, you talked about generational trauma.... um, and epigenetics-

Dr Tara Swart 1:13:12 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 1:13:12 ... is what you said?

Dr Tara Swart 1:13:13 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 1:13:14 What are, what are both of those things? Uh, the first time I heard about generational trauma, I thought it was like, woo-woo, uh, fluffy, hopeful, like, wishful think- like, n- a nice way to blame your ancestors for the way that you are. As of when I first heard about this concept that you, you could be passed down trauma from your parents or your grandparents, it just seemed like it couldn't possibly be true.

Dr Tara Swart 1:13:38 Yeah. I know. I mean, it's a relatively new area of research. So, I'm actually gonna separate this into a few things. So, generational trauma, um, and you can look this up, is related to specific times of acts that were, um, placed onto particular marginalized groups, so like first Americans, slavery, um, there's in, in Asia, there are some particular groups that were, um, treated in a certain way. And that is the... So, the impact of generational trauma is when something happen to one generation, there's a psychological spillover, and it can be something to do with you always feel isolated, or you always feel lonely, or you always feel at the margin, or you always feel left out. That's because a whole generation were treated in a certain way, and that has an impact. Intergenerational or epigenetic trauma is about how some external event actually changes the expression of your genes. So, we have a genotype and a phenotype. Genotype is your DNA. It doesn't change, but the phenotype is which bits get switched on and switched off. The most famous examples of this are the Holocaust and the Dutch famine, but there are other examples. And we are sufficient generations away from that now to have seen like three-plus generations' changes in the stress responses. And so... And it's not always bad. So sometimes, people are more resilient because their grandparents or great-grandparents went through something terrible, sometimes people are more anxious, and it's hard to know necessarily why things might go one way or another. I always say to people that you aren't born with the genes that your parents had when they were born. You're born with the expression of the genes that your parents had around the time of conception, and then, of course, your mother's stress levels through, through the trimesters of pregnancy. And this isn't meant to blame anyone for what happened in the past or how stressed they feel when they're pregnant. It's meant to raise awareness of the fact that if you have something in your family's history or you did have a particular stress, particularly stressful pregnancy, you can use neuroplasticity to improve the chances

Dr Tara Swart 1:16:02 of your baby expressing genes that will be more helpful for them in life than if you didn't know about all of this stuff.

Steven Bartlett 1:16:09 So, if you had a particularly stressful pregnancy, let's say. You're a woman who was really under stress when you were, um, s- eight months pregnant. How does that impact the baby? And what, what, what symptoms are you like to, likely to see in that baby that it wouldn't have had otherwise?

Dr Tara Swart 1:16:28 Okay. So I'm gonna give you a really, like, tangible answer before I take it back to the, um... something we were talking about before. Imagine the mother's a heroin addict.

Steven Bartlett 1:16:36 Mm-hmm.

Dr Tara Swart 1:16:37 That is affecting the baby, right?

Steven Bartlett 1:16:38 Yeah. Yeah.

Dr Tara Swart 1:16:39 And that's because they share the same blood supply.

Steven Bartlett 1:16:41 Yeah.

Dr Tara Swart 1:16:42 So, if the mother is stressed and she's got high levels of cortisol, then that cortisol is going through the placenta into the baby's blood supply. And basically, being stressed from in utero could switch on genes for not being resilient to stress or being more, um, liable to anxiety or mood disorder. Um, and it's already starting off, you know, i- inflammation in this, like, tiny baby that hasn't even been born yet. I know that sounds terrible, and I really don't want this to come across like all moms have to be completely zen and never get stressed, 'cause that's just not reality. But, you know, everything that you can do, of course, to manage your stress during pregnancy is helpful. But then, completely understanding that if your child then starts to show any, like, symptoms of anxiety or, you know, ina- inability to manage their emotions after an age where they should be kind of able to do that, you can introduce them to meditation. You can sit with them and talk to them about their emotions and how they're feeling. There are lots of really, like, great books and videos that you can use to, like, educate children about that kind of thing. Um, I always say knowledge is power. And unfortunately, difficult things can happen to people in life, but every time something like that's happened to me, I've gone down a rabbit hole of, "Okay, what can I find that can help me to overcome this and, and be better?"

Steven Bartlett 1:18:06 I was just thinking about, as you were talking about grief and the brain, the relationship between... You know, what happens in the brain when we're experiencing grief and stuff, so thinking about grief and heartbreak, is strong emotions. So many of us, including one of my best friends who's reason- is recently grieving a relationship he's lost, and I've got another friend that's lost someone in their life-

Dr Tara Swart 1:18:25 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:18:25 ... who's passed away, and it's such an all-consuming force-

Dr Tara Swart 1:18:29 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:18:30 ... that seems to be resistant to advice. I just wondered if, through your work, you'd learned anything about grief and the brain and heartbreak and the brain?

Dr Tara Swart 1:18:37 Yeah. So, I think there's so many, uh, versions of grief that we've seen, particularly in the last few years, which is loss of sense of self, loss of someone through a relationship breakdown, and loss of someone through actual death. Um, and it's interesting, uh, to hear you say, as a, you know, caring onlooker, that it's something that's so overwhelming and resistant to advice. I strongly believe that to ever heal from grief, you have to go to the bottom of the hole, and however you do that-... is not something that anyone else can comment on. I think if you are doing things like throwing yourself back into work or like partying too much to avoid it, that's not right. But if somebody has to go somewhere emotionally to deal with grief, they've got to be supported and allowed to do that, and, and then maybe at times gently nudged in terms of like, "How are you doing?" You know, as if kind of, "Are you feeling any sort of like healing or resolution or understanding or acceptance?" I do think particularly with grief that if we haven't been through something ourselves, it's- it's-