The Diary of a CEOLiam Payne Opens Up About His Darkest Moments, Failed Relationships & Entrepreneurship!
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,154 words- 0:00 – 1:38
Intro
- NANarrator
(music)
- SBSteven Bartlett
There are very few people, maybe just the five of them, on planet Earth that have gone through what my next guest has gone through over the last decade. Very, very few people on planet Earth that can tell you the stories he can tell you, and talk to you about the lessons he's learned. Liam Payne is a miraculous, inspiring, complex, very honest, very vulnerable, very open book. Today, he's gonna tell you about things that he probably shouldn't say, and topics that he probably shouldn't talk about. But just imagine, imagine being catapulted into stardom at 14 years old and becoming what many consider to be the modern-day Beatles. He toured the world with One Direction. They had their ups, their downs, their mental health crises, their scandals, their relationships, and everything in between. You know, if I was 16 years old and you asked me what I wanted to be, if I could, you know, dream up my life, I'd probably say, "Professional football player, or being in a boy band and traveling the world," seems like a life that we'd all give everything to have. But what you're gonna hear today is very different, and it might just change your mind. It certainly changed mine. So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.
- NANarrator
(music)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Liam.
- 1:38 – 11:55
Lockdown & the gym
- SBSteven Bartlett
Crazy, crazy year. Society-
- LPLiam Payne
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... all of us have had with this whole lockdown situation. Place I wanted to start is just to ask how it's been for you?
- LPLiam Payne
It has been interesting. I feel like I got the lockdown, the first depressive part of lockdown a lot later than everybody else, 'cause our work went through the roof.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- LPLiam Payne
And basically, it was interesting because I had to learn styling, makeup, hair, all these things that I wouldn't usually do when I'm with my team. And I lost everyone, 'cause you couldn't have anyone close contact. So I just had me and a camera guy that was staying with me.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- LPLiam Payne
So every job was like... I mean, we even had one day where we set up our own green screen, and we set the green screen up from 1:00 PM until 10:00 and then recorded till 5:00 in the morning. So it was like a whole day.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh, my gosh.
- LPLiam Payne
So we were busier than ever. And then we started doing these online shows, which went really great, um, with a company called Veeps-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- LPLiam Payne
... which was good. And then I stopped working, which I thought was gonna be really good for me 'cause I was tired and it was actually the worst thing in the world for me.
- SBSteven Bartlett
When you say you stopped working, describe your day at that point.
- LPLiam Payne
Um, I mean, I was just finding myself on the sofa for the whole day, just watching random Netf- I've seen everything on Netflix.
- SBSteven Bartlett
On your own?
- LPLiam Payne
Uh, no. My partner was there at the time.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay.
- LPLiam Payne
Yeah. It was, it was, it was wild. And it was dark because you can't really go anywhere, you don't really know what you're doing, and, and, and, and I felt like my career was kind of in a funny place at that point as well and, and how I was agreeable with it at that time as well, if that makes sense.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Are you the type of person that needs to be kept busy?
- LPLiam Payne
I think so. I think I've had a crash course this last year in learning to have my own time. 'Cause I mean, imagine, from, from about the age of 16, 17, we, we had a day sheet every day. So when you don't have a day sheet, it's like, "What the hell do I do?" And then the other part of it's like you don't really learn what you enjoy from that point either. So it was that, that was quite difficult in lockdown because you have so much time to yourself.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- LPLiam Payne
And then it was like... I saw something the, the other day about toxic productivity. Did you see this?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, I've seen this on Instagram.
- LPLiam Payne
Obviously, they've got a new ism for, for everything.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah.
- LPLiam Payne
But it actually made sense to me. If I'm not doing something that's, that's productive, I feel like I'm going backwards.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- LPLiam Payne
So then I'm trying to make... I'm trying to force moves. And I suppose that was one of the things I think I learnt most about myself, I don't have to be doing something every day to feel good about myself.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Where does that come from that... Do you, do you think that need to feel like you're moving forward, or it feels like backward motion?
- LPLiam Payne
I have no idea. I think I'm just quite driven in that sense.
- 11:55 – 15:54
Dealing with being famous
- SBSteven Bartlett
I wanted to ask your advice on is, when it was announced, you know, I had my little moment, 15 seconds where, like, all of the press talk about you. Your Twitter blows up. Lots of attention.
- LPLiam Payne
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What advice would you give to me about dealing with this kind of noise? 'Cause you, I mean, there's not many people on planet Earth that have dealt with noise and, like, that, right?
- LPLiam Payne
Mm-hmm. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
You know?
- LPLiam Payne
I think don't... It's a really fine line between getting too wrapped up in what's going on and not being wrapped up enough in it. If you know what I mean.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Really?
- LPLiam Payne
But I think you, but I think you know the things that hurt you the most because you know they're honest. So when someone says something you like, if they hurt you, then you, hurts you a lot, then you know there's some truth in it because it hurt you. If it's ridiculous, you just go, "Oh, that was funny. As if they said that." You know what I mean?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Really?
- LPLiam Payne
So I think there's a, there's a fine line to tread with it. And I mean, I've gone through eras where I was just like a little clap back attitude driven youth.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You were respondent.
- LPLiam Payne
Where as soon as someone would say something, I'd be like, right, well then let's go at you. And then I was, I mean, I was a bit mean and nasty at points actually. It was a bit bad. But when you're a teen growing up in it and people are like basically bullying you and they get paid for it, it's like that's a bit outrageous so I'm gonna have my say.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- LPLiam Payne
Who's got the biggest mountain? You know what I mean? But then it's like someone said to me over time, it's like, you know, if someone says something about me in the press in this country and then I say something about them, it ends up on E! News and then they've made America, I didn't get anywhere. So it's like, don't bring people up to your level if you don't think you... unless you absolutely have to. And one thing I would say, don't lose your phone doing this, notes. If someone pisses you off, write a note about it as if you were writing them a letter and then let it go. Just don't send it. And then it gets all your-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah.
- LPLiam Payne
... what you would tweet out, but you don't say it. That was the best thing I ever did. It was the best thing I ever did.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Really?
- LPLiam Payne
Yeah. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
So pop open your notes then. (laughs)
- LPLiam Payne
I just remembered one.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Can you imagine? Fucking hell. No, it's crazy because you read stuff and I was saying to you, you know, before we started filming, like I've got a baby apparently and a wife and then-
- LPLiam Payne
Oh, congratulations.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... you look at this other man, you know. No, I know you're doing really well, yeah. And I just thought like, you know, it's crazy that, um, there's not a high regard for truth in, in-
- LPLiam Payne
Well, do you know what? I was actually on the way into this, I wanted to speak about this because obviously there's a lot in the, in the world at the moment about freedom of speech and the press freedom of speech, which I agree with, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- LPLiam Payne
We should, we don't need to dictate laws. My only problem is, and my biggest problem around corona was the fact that the media were allowed to twist our thinking about corona...
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- LPLiam Payne
... as much as they wanted to, and they're still doing it now, but the fearmongering isn't helping anyone.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- LPLiam Payne
You know, and these people aren't sat there going, "Oh, I've just written a great article. My boss is gonna promote me." Oh yeah, but you just decreased the value of the pound, so your wages that you think are worth more are now worth less.
- 15:54 – 23:20
Your relationship status
- SBSteven Bartlett
you, you said earlier, you made a comment, you said that, um, your partner at the time, referring to lockdown, does that mean you are...
- LPLiam Payne
I am indeed.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You're single.
- LPLiam Payne
Yep.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Me and you both.
- LPLiam Payne
(sighs) Where we going? (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- LPLiam Payne
No, I'm saying to myself, I feel like, I feel like more than anything at this point, I'm more disappointed in myself for the keep on hurting people. That annoys me. I've just been, not been very good at relationships and I know what my pattern of things is with relationships, I feel at this point. I'm just not very good at them so I just need to, like work on myself first.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You're gonna have to tell me what that means, yeah.
- LPLiam Payne
Before I, before I put myself onto somebody else. And I feel that's what, you know, that's where I got to in my last relationship. I just wasn't giving a very good version of me anymore that I didn't appreciate and I didn't like being. And I can honestly say that I feel better out of it. I didn't feel good for doing what, what, what I did, but it had to happen. I mean, that's the corniest way of saying that was best for both of us. Like whatever, cool, nice story bro. But it just feels like that.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Very self-aware for you to know that you were...
- LPLiam Payne
Oh yeah, no, I know it was a problem so it's, I need to sort myself out and I, I already feel good so it's got me more concentrated, you know, and I hope she's happy.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What is it you've discovered about yourself in relationships that you're trying to work on?
- LPLiam Payne
Do you know what? (sighs) I mean, one of our old managers went to therapy from being a manager of One Direction. So if you can imagine how that feels, like the rest of us definitely need some.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(sighs)
- LPLiam Payne
And for me most part, I was really regressing from therapy because everyone was pushing me into it, which is the worst thing you can do. Like it's almost like becoming sober for instance, you have to want to be sober...
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- LPLiam Payne
... to start with, not people taking your toys away and you're going, "Oh my God." So it kind of felt like that. Whereas this time I kind of threw myself into it even though I didn't want, didn't really want to inside, I threw myself into it, made my own choices. And I think for me my life's been so controlled to a point, day sheets, security guards, you know, anything and it's all everybody else's dictate and puppet master crap-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- LPLiam Payne
... over the top of your life. Then, then you just get to a point where it's like you have to take some control back yourself and until I started to do that with my life, then I was living for everybody else and I'm a complete people pleaser anyway. So it was like nothing in my life was about serving myself, which then that just left me in a bad place, and finding enjoyment from other stuff that I don't need.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What, what did... 'Cause I've always considered therapy for a bunch of reasons.
- LPLiam Payne
And the thing is it's still such like a, a, a-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Taboo.
- LPLiam Payne
... taboo kind of phrase and thing.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Stigma or thing.
- LPLiam Payne
And I get it. I do get it. I was, I mean, I was on the phone to Louis from my band talking about it today and it's like-... there was one moment last week, and, and I mean, my manager's my best friend. He's been saying to me for a long time, "You'll have that one awakening in the middle of it where you'll think about stuff." And I- I mean, I hate words like awakening, and I hate this, like, Hollywood perception of, like, reflective work. What the fuck is that?
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- LPLiam Payne
You know what I mean? But I get it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- LPLiam Payne
But at the same point, I'm like... I don't know, you, you keep it for you, but it's like I had this one moment that, that, that I found and I was like, "Oh my God, that's just unlocked so many truths about me," and it was so insignificant. It was something that happened when I was younger, and it was so... To me it was like a, a family joke. But now I'm like, "Oh my God, I've been living my whole life as that character," and, yeah, wild, wild. You'll love it.
- 23:20 – 25:23
Being a perfectionist
- LPLiam Payne
- SBSteven Bartlett
Being a perfectionist-
- LPLiam Payne
Yeah. It's a b- it's an issue.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... yeah. What, how... T- talk to me about what that means specifically in your life.
- LPLiam Payne
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
A- in work, in relationships.
- LPLiam Payne
Steve?
- SBSteven Bartlett
In everything.
- LPLiam Payne
What does that mean? (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Steve's his manager who's sat behind the camera. Yeah.
- LPLiam Payne
Um...
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) I feel like S- we should pull up a chair. (laughs)
- LPLiam Payne
I, no, you know what I love about this-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- LPLiam Payne
... is that, but Steve, my fans think that, like, Steve's, like, doing something to me, so they're always like, "Oh, Liberty for Liam. He always looks for Steve."
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- LPLiam Payne
But it's not even because I like him.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- LPLiam Payne
It's not because he's, like, harming me as a person.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But then there's-
- LPLiam Payne
There's like a hashtag Liberty For Liam, like they think I'm like some, like, prison child.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) There's gonna be all these other people who were just listening on the audio and think you were calling my name. (laughs)
- LPLiam Payne
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
"Steve." (laughs)
- LPLiam Payne
So one thing I, I really got into over, over lockdown was art and drawing.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Ooh, interesting.
- LPLiam Payne
Something I'd done since I was younger, and the point was find something to do that doesn't make you money, was the whole point of the exercise. And I was like, "Okay, cool, drawing." And I said to the person who gave me the advice at the time, I was like, "I guarantee this turns into something," hold for later on in the conversation.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- LPLiam Payne
Um, so I started drawing, but then what I found was I was so...... bad at starting the task, blank sheet of paper and all that, because I was so worried about what might come out, that I was like, I'd sit there, and like, if something's not quite right, I, like... It can ruin my day in a drawing-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- 25:23 – 27:52
Alcoholism
- SBSteven Bartlett
- LPLiam Payne
Yeah, exactly.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And are you still drinking? Have you-
- LPLiam Payne
No.
- SBSteven Bartlett
No. Not some?
- LPLiam Payne
No, no. I've been sober just over a month now, I think it is.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I... My business partner, he, um, when we started the business, became an alcoholic about three, four years in 'cause it was just too tough.
- LPLiam Payne
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And then he had, like, severe suicidal ideation. He actually didn't tell me at the time. And this is why when I was reading about your story, I could relate to so much of it, because he... I didn't say what I was going through to him. He didn't say it to me. And then it was like, after we'd sold the business that he was like, "I used to stand on the train platforms and think about jumping in front of the train."
- LPLiam Payne
Oh, so-
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I was like... And he never told me. And, and... But there was... And you don't... I didn't know what alcoholism or really mental health was at the time.
- LPLiam Payne
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But I'd go downstairs, 3:00 AM in the morning, and I'd open up the laundry room, and he's in there with a bottle of wine at 3:00 AM. The lights are off, and he's just drinking it, sat on the clothes. I'm like, "Get off my fucking clothes." (laughs) I'm joking. (laughs)
- LPLiam Payne
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
I'm... And I was like, "What the hell is going on?" But, you know... And I, I read similar thing, similar sort of story or narratives in your story, where, you know, you were having moments of that, that kind of, like, ideation. You were having moments of suicidal ideation and-
- LPLiam Payne
Yeah. I mean, (sighs) there's, there's some stuff that I've definitely, like, never, never spoken about to do with it. It was really, really, really severe. And it was a problem. And, and, and it was only until I saw myself after that I was, "All right, I need to fix myself."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- LPLiam Payne
There's a few pictures of me on a boat, and I'm all, like, bloated out, and I call it pills and booze face. And I was like this. Like, my face was just, like, ten times more than it is now. And, uh, I just didn't like myself very much. Then I made a change. And the same thing happened this year with, with, with that sort of thing as well. But the problem we had in the band, and I don't blame anybody for this. I don't want to seem like I'm whining or moaning-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- LPLiam Payne
... "Oh my God, look at my life." Whatever. But it feels to me like, when we were in the band, the best way to secure us, because of how big it got, was just lock us in our rooms. And, of course, what's in the room? Mini bar.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- LPLiam Payne
So, at a certain point, I thought, "Well, I'm gonna have a party for one." And that just seemed to carry on throughout many years of my life. And then you look back how long you've been drinking and stuff, where you're like, "Jesus Christ, that's a long time," even for someone who's, you know, as young as I was. Um, it was wild. But it was like the only way you could get frustration out in the day or being tr- like, trapped. And, and, you know, I spoke about... to somebody about this, and, and, and in child development, you know, as a team, the one thing you need is, is freedom to make choices and freedom to do stuff. And it was the one thing that... Although we could do anything we wanted, it seemed from the outside, that we were always locked in a room at night, and then it would be car, hotel room, stage, sing, locked.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- LPLiam Payne
So, it was like they pulled the dust cloth off, let us out for a minute, and then, "Woo-hoo," and then it's, like, back underneath again. And I'm like, "G-"
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's so crazy 'cause
- 27:52 – 34:15
One Direction & the costs
- SBSteven Bartlett
you're right. The public will think the absolute opposite. We think, "Oh, One Direction, those guys have got total freedom. All the money in the world, they can do anything."
- LPLiam Payne
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Everyone's, you know, in their nine-to-five jobs just thinking, "I'd love to have that level of freedom that Liam Payne has to do anything."
- LPLiam Payne
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
But you can't do anything, right? It's the opposite.
- LPLiam Payne
No. I mean, it... Because we were young... I mean, I actually wanted to speak to you about this today as well-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- LPLiam Payne
... because obviously you've r- reached stratospheric heights at a young age. It's like, what I found was, I didn't know I was the boss until a long... Until, like, a few months ago. I still don't even feel like I am now.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- LPLiam Payne
Like, I'm such a child. And everyone I work with is, like-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Don't be raging.
- LPLiam Payne
... older than me and wiser than me. And I'm like, "What the hell am I doing here with these people?" So, it's like, you, you... You know, when we were 17, I thought the security guard was, like, in charge of me. Like, I was like, "Oh, can we leave the room?" "No." "Okay then, not to worry. I'll just stay here." That's what it was like. So, I didn't know what the hell I was doing. You know what I mean?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- LPLiam Payne
It's like... And, and no one... There's no guidebook. They don't give you a little DVD on the way in, saying, "Here, you're a pop star." (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- LPLiam Payne
"Like, this is what you gotta do." So, I'm, like, in the room, like, "When are we allowed to leave?" And then eventually, that becomes, like, a angry person, and I was.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- LPLiam Payne
Because there was points where it was toxic and it was difficult. Don't get me wrong, we had the best time ever. We did. But there was moments where, through... You know, I mean, there's a, there's a, there's a big movement on it at the moment, and people are overworking and, and, like, you don't realize you have a choice at that point.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- LPLiam Payne
But in those shows, sometimes they don't give you the choice because you want the dream. But you have to realize, there is a sacrifice for that, you know? Rather than it just... And like I say, I never want to come on, on these things and whine about stuff. Like, I made my own choices in life. You know, being an alcoholic, doing whatever else, that was my choice. So, you know, it, it doesn't have to be whiny, but it's just, like, there was a sacrifice. And I know what I did sacrifice to be here, you know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Everything, what I've come to learn, everything in life, all the good shit, comes with a cost.
- LPLiam Payne
Oh.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I've, I've learned just from my own experience, like, my success... My success is very different from yours. We went very different paths, but came with a clear cost. Because you can't go from being a 18-year-old kid that's, like, nicking Chicago Town Pizzas to feed himself-
- LPLiam Payne
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
... to being... To building a company worth 300 million within six, seven years without-
- LPLiam Payne
What a great sentence that was, by the way.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Like, I c-
- LPLiam Payne
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
I, like, I was a fucking loose... like, loner. Like, I was in my room for summers upon summers on my own f- just... You know, 'cause I couldn't... A, my parents weren't talking to me. They said, "Don't call us until you go back to university." Years on my... So, wasn't speaking to my family. No friends, 'cause I couldn't f- even afford to see them. That was the cost for me. And what that made is someone who, again, isn't very social. On the weekends, I spend m- 99% of my time alone.
- LPLiam Payne
I'm the same.
- 34:15 – 40:13
Your NFT project
- SBSteven Bartlett
- LPLiam Payne
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Life, life carries on, and then, uh... Yeah, on the point of... 'cause I really wanna get to this. I know you're working on this NFT project.
- LPLiam Payne
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And it's based around this feeling of being...
- LPLiam Payne
It's based around the idea of this. It's, it's... it was this... it was like a, I wanna call it a syndrome, I don't know what it was. Someone told me something about fame, that you enter fame the age... you l- you leave fame the age you entered it. So for me, that was 14, right? So I'm screwed. Like, I'm the 14-year-old forever child. So that was always a big fear of mine, that I have to grow properly. Now, from what One Direction gave me, I grew massively in some respects to the point that you... I mean, you all have experiences when you have conversations about business deals, and I'm the director of a comp-... Like, I was a director of a half a billion dollar industry at 22, and I'm like, "What the hell does that mean?" All it meant was I got to sign 10 times more forms than anybody else (laughs) . Wild, right? So, but then in other things, like, if I'm try and pay car insurance, I'm useless.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- LPLiam Payne
So then you don't grow in other aspects of your life because you have other... people do crap for you, like picking up my post? I'm the worst person in the world. I c- I just forget about it, you know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
That must leave you open to be, to be taken advantage of, right, because they know that there's some things you don't know. Like, you were telling me-
- LPLiam Payne
Oh, yeah, 100%.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... the security person was-
- LPLiam Payne
Yeah, that's it, and you're, you're deluded in your growth of whatever. But this is where the NFT idea kinda came from, and it... but it first started as this, this little drawing that I did, and then I wanted to make my own character, because I was like, "I'm really good at drawing, but we have printers for that. I don't need to be a printer." So then I was like, "I need to make something." So I made this, like, ethereal creature that was s- I wanted to 3D print and stick in a, a, like, crystal glass box, and the idea is that he's depressed, that he's... It's like a wasp in a beer glass type thing.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Ah, okay.
- LPLiam Payne
Magical creature, can't get out, sort of thing. So then we kinda came up with this per eternis idea around fame and what does that lead to, and, and for me, the way it speaks to me and the way that art speaks to me is that I was afraid of the idea of losing, you know, having, keeping the child with me. I was trying to... it was like a monkey on my back, trying to get rid of it. Whereas for now, the idea for me is more based around, you know, how do I enjoy that? Because what I love, when I see my son, is that he can be whatever he wants in that moment, you know. I'll be over the house and he's like, "You're a bad guy, I'm a good guy." And I'm like, "That's great." And then the next day, he's one of them girls from Frozen, "No, no, I'm doing this, it's magic powers today," and I'm like, "Wow." Like, we lose that, and then that's a lot of my problem when I'm sitting doing a task or whatever, the belief system in me has been trodden on through life that much that now I've forgotten about that. They have the ability to do whatever the hell they want, so why would you ever wanna lose the child within you in that sense?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Wow. And that's coming out as an NFT soon?
- LPLiam Payne
Mm-hmm. It's coming out as an NFT, uh, in like two weeks, I think.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Wow.
- LPLiam Payne
It's quite scary. It's wild, 'cause I just made it, I made it one day in lockdown, and then sent it to my manager and we enjoyed the piece as it was, but then it just kind of grew into this thing at the same time that NFTs were growing-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Right.
- LPLiam Payne
... as a thing. I mean, hav- how many people ask you what NFTs are, by the way?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, so many of them.
- LPLiam Payne
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
A lot of people. Uh, like I'll get DMs all the time and, you know, I'll try and describe what it is, but I think if you say something with enough conviction, people will just believe it anyway. So I'm like, "You know broccoli?" You know, I'll just say anything.
- LPLiam Payne
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I know what it is. I've studied it. I, I'm working on a few projects at the moment with NFTs, but, um, I'm just, uh, you know, with all these emerging technologies and whenever something's new, I'm kind of like probably a little bit like you and Christian, I know you're very, very entrepreneurial and investing a lot now, um, I just wanna be in there like a sponge.
- LPLiam Payne
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So I want like a, a flag in there just so I can learn. Some... Yeah.
- LPLiam Payne
Well, I mean, I think that's a common misconception about this sort of thing as well, is that you always come up with the idea that's coming to you rather than, like you say, being that sponge in the middle-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- LPLiam Payne
... of the room.
- 40:13 – 49:14
Where would you be if you hadn't gone on X-Factor
- SBSteven Bartlett
but there was something you said which, m- which again, my mind thought, "Oh, that's really intriguing," is you said that you weren't going to reapply for the X Factor, potentially.
- LPLiam Payne
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Where do you think you would be?
- LPLiam Payne
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I'm gonna ask you various iterations of these questions. Where do you think you'd be in your life now if you hadn't have applied for the X Factor?
- LPLiam Payne
So you want the business plan. That's what you want.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- LPLiam Payne
That's what you really wanna hear.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But I also... Yeah. Yeah.
- LPLiam Payne
You wanna hear the business. Okay, I'll lay it out for you. This, this is my, this was actually my, like, plan B system, 'cause I was a weird, strange child.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I want to know if I'm gonna invest- Okay.
- LPLiam Payne
So, I got a job. At the same time... This is really wild. Work experience week at school. My dad worked at a factory and I was always obsessed. I was like, "This is adult Lego." And he built airplanes, I was like, "This is amazing. I'm gonna do that." So I went and I built airplanes, and they had like a little collection for me or something, I did like 400 quid and everyone... I was like, "What did you get paid for your work experience?" Everyone was like, "Nothing." I was like, "Oh, I got like 500 quid." But in the middle of my work experience, I went on X Factor. So it was almost like I was trialing my two lives.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Cool.
- LPLiam Payne
Almost like, uh, what's that Sliding Doors film or whatever it's called? A Butterfly Effect or something like-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh, yeah, you was... Yeah, yeah.
- LPLiam Payne
So my thing was I'd got a job and secured one there for an apprenticeship, which was like 22,000 a year or something.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- LPLiam Payne
And then I was like, "Right, I know my sister paid 60 pound board at the house. So if I just, like, board at my parents' house, it's 60 pound in fees. Then I can save up the other money, enough to buy my first house and then rent it out."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh, right, so you had a plan.
- LPLiam Payne
Then I was gonna collect the rent, buy another one, and then move into that one, and then it was almost like a conveyor belt system.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Nice. You had it all planned out.
- LPLiam Payne
I had it ready to go.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And then X Factor ruined that. (laughs)
- LPLiam Payne
I mean, you say your, your favorite TV program was Dragon's Den.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- LPLiam Payne
Mine was... I, I watched Help! My House is Falling Down! and Location, Location, Location, stuff like that when I was a kid.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Really?
- LPLiam Payne
I was, like, obsessed. Yeah. And then funnily enough, my manager does pr- loads of properties. Are you into odds?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Are you into property?
- LPLiam Payne
I love property.
- 49:14 – 55:37
Your relationship with the rest of boys & touring
- SBSteven Bartlett
what's your relationship like with the rest of the boys? I'm sure you get asked this all the time. But I can't imagine that it involves-
- LPLiam Payne
Great with most of them. Great with most of them. Um, I think everyone's settling into themselves at this point. I know I am, for sure. Um, uh, I had a lovely phone call from Harry the other day. He was checking in on me. Uh, and I mean, it's almost like some people have got sixth sense for you, right, that you're going through something, so they'll check in.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Really?
- LPLiam Payne
And he was, he's very much like that. He's a lovely, lovely boy. I, I love him to pieces. And then, um, Louis, I, I speak to a lot. Um, and we've always had a really, really close connection. And the funny thing for us, I know I've said this a lot, but we were... We hated each other at the start. But it's almost the people that you grow closest to, you know. And Niall, I'll, I'll say it, 'cause he brought it up quite recently, but that, you know, the whole thing that they talk about the reunion-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- LPLiam Payne
Like, for me, I'd rather we talked about it sooner rather than later, 'cause I don't wanna... It's tough touring, touring that, that, that sort of record. And then... And I enjoyed touring for what I enjoyed it for, but there's parts of it that really, really fucked me up, man, in a sense. I'll be honest with you. Um, but none of us talk about it. It's like this taboo subject. Like, "Oh, we can't get back together." What do you mean? Oh my God, like us in the same room? What the fuck is that about?
- SBSteven Bartlett
What fucks you up about touring?
- LPLiam Payne
Uh, my dad said it from day one, lonely hotel rooms, man. Getting locked in that room is not fun when you've been exposed. I mean, I've come off gigs before. I did a gig in, in Dubai. (laughs) And I was really worried no one was gonna show up. It was one of my first solo gigs by myself. And I suppose I'm uber self-critical, I'm always like, "I don't know what the hell's going on."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- LPLiam Payne
So I get to this park, and the capacity for the park is like you've never seen. I'm looking at, like, a park. I'm like, "How the hell?" And I'm thinking, "We're getting paid a lot of money to be here, this is gonna be really embarrassing if nobody shows up, and I don't know anybody in Dubai. I can't even call 10 friends to be here." So I'm like, at dinner, I'm not eating my food and whatever else. Then I get back to the gig, and there's people chanting and going, "Lee, yeah, Liam." And I'm like, "Okay, there's people here. Oh my God, I can chill." I get out there, and I'm, like, awash with these sea of people. And I notice the sound system's hella quiet behind me. This doesn't make any sense. I- I'm... I'd get through the gig, and you autopilot the hell out of it. When I got off stage, they're like, "Oh, you broke a record. You're on a list with Michael Jackson." It was 110,000 people. I'm like... And I was like, I- I- I... You know what? I got back to my hotel room, and I was sat in my room on, on a chair like this. And I was about to go to the Maldives with, uh, with Cheryl and Bear.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- LPLiam Payne
And I'm like, "I don't think I can go to the Maldives right now." (laughs) "I can't move off this chair."
- SBSteven Bartlett
How did- how did you feel in that chair?
- LPLiam Payne
Shocked. Why... Like, for it to go from, like, "I don't know who's gonna be here," to then... I looked on the thing, and it's like Oasis, Robbie Williams, all these amaz- you know, AC/DC, all these outdoor gigs, amazing outdoor gigs. And then just me and Michael Jackson. And he's only been there, like, three or four times. He's, you know... He is the list. But I was on the same list. I'm like, "What the..."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Can't be easy.
- LPLiam Payne
It was wild.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Like, going back to that hotel room, like, I've done talks-
- LPLiam Payne
And then it's... That's it, it's just mute.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- LPLiam Payne
It's almost like, you know, like, in that... in a movie where they throw a grenade and it goes (imitates sound) and then everyone's like, "That's what it feels like."
- SBSteven Bartlett
And you've still got the adrenaline running through you.
- LPLiam Payne
And you're like, "Oh my God," like...
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. 'Cause I've done 9- 9,000, 15,000 in Sao Paolo. I mean, I did a talk with Obama. That's me name-dropping.
- LPLiam Payne
Oh, wow.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But, um, but it... They're not chanting. (laughs)
- LPLiam Payne
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
They're all very quiet. I mean, they clap at the end but, but they don't-
- LPLiam Payne
But how did it make you feel? You just feel like a diff- y-
- SBSteven Bartlett
But I, I, I can completely relate because I... I was thinking last year, I lived in New York City, but I was, I was speaking around the world 50 weeks of the year, so I was home four weeks.
- LPLiam Payne
Yeah.
- 55:37 – 1:01:12
I am lucky to be here, have I hit my rock bottom
- SBSteven Bartlett
said there something, you know, in a previous answer that you, you've said online, which is that you're lucky to be here. One of the most moving things I've ever seen, which re- honestly disturbed me and has stayed with me my entire life was that Avicii documentary and the way that his management were pushing him, and he had social anxiety, and oh God, it just haunts me.
- LPLiam Payne
You know what? With those things, I mean, I've spoken to managers who, who've lost people and different... And, and, and, you know, I've definitely put strain on a lot of people in my life in the past. You see it, it's been like-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- LPLiam Payne
... it makes me a different person. I don't like talking about it. Um, you know, I, I think it's hard. It's just as hard for the team around you at points as it is for you, because we didn't all know how the hell we got here. (laughs) Everyone's kind of looking around like, "We don't really know how the hell we got here. So uh, where, where's the next move?" And there's always someone who will pull you through. I've been very, very fortunate now with the people that I had to pull me through my, my bits. Um, and it's, you know, and for... That's why I say this care system is so important, right? We, music is the lifeblood of a lot of our things. It's the background to our movie scenes when we're sat in the back of the car, looking long fully out the window, but when then we don't wanna look after the thing that's kind of feeding us that much.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- LPLiam Payne
You know what I mean?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- LPLiam Payne
So I think for artists in the sense, they do need that. I feel that it doesn't need to get lost in translation in other things. It genuinely needs to be a care system. But then everyone's over therapy these days in that sense anyway, but it's like, if you want it, it should be available. You know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Is there, was there, is there a moment where you look back and say, "That was the lowest moment for me, that was the pivotal moment," or-
- LPLiam Payne
I had a few of them. I was worried how far my rock bottom was gonna be. Where's rock bottom for me? And you would never have seen it. I'm very good at hiding it. No one would ever have seen it. But rock bottom, it... Uh, I, I, I mean, I don't even know if I hit it yet. You know what I mean? I feel like it's like one of those little graphs-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- LPLiam Payne
... you see when it's like, oh, we hit the, the, uh, you know-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Like Bitcoin. (laughs)
- LPLiam Payne
... the support, the market support. Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- LPLiam Payne
Are we there? Are these the support level? Oh my God. You know? It's the same thing. So it feels like I can even make that choice now and, and pick my last moment as my rock-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- LPLiam Payne
... at the bottom, or (laughs) I can make a new one and make a whole new low. That's my choice.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You, you said online that you, uh, you had previously been masking your em- em- emotions and feelings, and this was something that you were trying to, trying to get over.
- LPLiam Payne
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, you said you, you tried to learn to deal with your emotions instead of masking them. How important has that been? This is something I really struggle with, actually, because I was CEO of a company, you know, 27 years up, 26, 27 years old, 700 employees, and-
- LPLiam Payne
That's wild.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Fucking wild, isn't it? All around the world, these adults that are double my age, and I have to be... Right? My business partner, he'll tell you-
- LPLiam Payne
You have to be assertive, Wallace.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... he's a bit on the pocket, he fell away, right? Alcoholic, putting on all this weight, depressive anxiety, fell away. So I'm carrying him because I need-
- LPLiam Payne
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... because we're, we co-founders, we're seen as a unit. So when he's out in the street and he, I don't... He won't mind me saying this, because he's been drinking all day with the team and he's stealing wa- bo- bottles of wine off other people's tables, just total strangers-
- LPLiam Payne
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and he's doing things in public-
- LPLiam Payne
That sounds like something you'd do to me.
Episode duration: 1:38:11
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