The Diary of a CEOMacklemore: How You Can Overcome Your Darkest Days & Hardest Battles!
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
135 min read · 27,469 words- 0:00 – 2:05
Intro
- MAMacklemore
Maybe this world's not for me 'cause I don't know what I'm doing here anymore. I feel nothing and I think that that's the hardest part. I haven't really spoke about this. It's, um... Yeah, I- I'll just say it. I mean- Macklemore! The man behind our favorite hits. Music superstar. Grammy Award winner. We're just getting started. You have no idea.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Where does the desire to be on stage come from?
- MAMacklemore
Michael Jackson. I wanted to make music, art with melody. It was where I felt an escape from my head. 14-year-old taking 12 shots of vodka, you know, on a school night by myself, running from the police and doing drugs that never stopped.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I've read, um, your wife had taken a pregnancy test.
- MAMacklemore
Yeah. We were in our home and I'm there, I'm high. Her period was late, went and got her the pregnancy test and I'm just, like, praying, "Let this be a negative pregnancy test. I'm not ready to give up the drugs." And then I heard the tears. And I remember walking outside and I just started bawling 'cause I couldn't feel any sort of happiness, and I knew what that meant.
- SBSteven Bartlett
If you were to go back and be able to have a conversation now with young Ben at 14 years old, before that first drink, what would you say?
- MAMacklemore
That's a great question. It's gonna cause way more pain than good, but at the same time...
- SBSteven Bartlett
Would you like to go for dinner with me and my guests here on The Diary of a CEO? We are holding dinner parties all around the world over the coming months, and our subscribers on this YouTube channel are invited. We're inviting 20 subscribers to every dinner. So if you'd like to come for dinner with me and my guests here on The Diary of a CEO, I have a favor to ask you. All you've got to do is hit the subscribe button and I hope to see you at dinner somewhere around the world very soon.
- 2:05 – 8:17
What’s inspired you to become this person sat in-front of me
- SBSteven Bartlett
Ben, when I, when I think about people's lives, I... And I think from doing this podcast, this has become more sort of clear to me. I see their lives as like a series of dots-
- MAMacklemore
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... you know, like, or a series of dominoes that fall to lead them to where they are today. And if you go back to the very start of that, that series of dots to understand the most influential moments or things that, um, inspired you to become the person you are today, in every sense of the word, what are those first dots, those first experiences that I need to know in order to understand you?
- MAMacklemore
My first dots. My first dots, I think, would be listening to the radio outside, summertime, nextdoor neighbor's yard, and being introduced to music and loving music, falling in love that summer. I believe I was six years old, and, you know, I had an older neighbor who was maybe four or five years older than me and he had a bunch of, um... You know, my best friend was next door. He was five years older than us. It was like a collection of, of kids in the neighborhood, and I remember that summer being this magical introduction to art, to music, to listening to the radio, and falling in love with, with melody, with sound. That was my first, that was my first dot. And then my next dot shortly after that was falling in love with hip-hop music at the age of seven. And those were the first two dots that really set me on a path, a trajectory, and this desire to be on a stage.
- SBSteven Bartlett
People can listen to music, have that summertime experience. They can listen to rap music, but not have the desire to be on stage.
- MAMacklemore
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Where does the desire to be on stage come from?
- MAMacklemore
Michael Jackson.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- MAMacklemore
I think it was, I think it was MJ. I think that, you know, like everyone else that, that grew up in the, in the '80s, there was something about watching Michael Jackson command a stage and what he did with his body, what he did with his feet, the moonwalk obviously, but everything about it, the perfection, the timing, the, the nuanced moves that he had, the way that he commanded the crowd. There was a curiosity around, "What is that? I'm not sure, but I want to try." And an inner performer was born in my household at the age of seven. And, uh, everyone that came into my house was subjected to whatever show I was putting on that day, and I just wanted to, you know, get on the kitchen counter and show people that, like, you know, "I have a show for you guys. Come watch."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Parents, home life.
- MAMacklemore
Parents, um, yeah, they were, they were super encouraging. You know, my mom was my biggest cheerleader and my biggest advocate, someone that was always in my corner that was like, "You can do it. You got this." And I just believed her, even when I shouldn't have. And, um, those years were very... were very crucial in my development of gaining confidence in, in who I was as a person and as an artist.
- SBSteven Bartlett
School. You, you got kicked out of school, dropped out of school at around 14, 15. Is that accurate?
- MAMacklemore
Yeah and no. I didn't get kicked out. I, I was close to getting kicked out. Um, probably should have got kicked out. I wasn't going to school much, but I went to a small school and, up until, uh, high school, and it was very...... communal, um, you know, parents volunteered. It was this alternative creative school, and then ninth grade hit, and that is when drugs and alcohol hit as well, and I had freedom. It was like, you know, the school was like 1,600 kids or 2,000 kids or something. And for the first time, I wasn't being watched. I could skip class. Um, the teachers didn't notice if I was there or not, or they didn't call my parents and, um, there was this level of freedom. So there was that period of- of a year, year and a half where, um, I went from kind of a- a B student to, uh, damn near getting kicked out for- for failing. So didn't last long. I got back on track and, um, you know, completed high school with, I think I closed out with, a 3.8 or a 4.0 my last year of high school, um...
- SBSteven Bartlett
And what did you want to do when you were an adult? Like, if I'd asked 14, 15-year-old you, you know, "What are you going to be when you grow up?" What would you have told me?
- MAMacklemore
I wanted to rap.
- SBSteven Bartlett
That- y- b- you- you believed that you could get there?
- MAMacklemore
You know, I didn't know if I could or not, but it wasn't... At 14 or 15, I don't think I would've necessarily had the confidence like, this is going to be the path. But by the time that I hit around 20 years old, it was like, this is- this is possible. 22, it was like, this is even more possible. 23... But the problem was that I kept having, um, you know, it was this- it was always like I could make this a reality if I can just get sober, and I couldn't get sober. So it was this like, I need to get sober, I need to get clean so I can make music that's meaningful, that's impactful, because once I got high, it was like the veil was over my eyes. I had no connection anymore to the music, and, um, it was kind of always that balance. But I felt in my heart if I can get clean, I can make enough music that will resonate with people that might be able to pay some of these bills.
- 8:17 – 25:10
Your journey with addiction
- MAMacklemore
- SBSteven Bartlett
When people think about... I built a business with my business partner for many, many years, and throughout that process, he was... and he's been on this show before. He- he was addicted to alcohol.
- MAMacklemore
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I didn't know what it was, so we were living in the same house together. I'd go downstairs at 3:00 A- 3:00 AM in the morning and I'd find him in the laundry room drinking from a bottle-
- MAMacklemore
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and I'd put him back in bed and then, you know, 5:00 AM I hear a sound. He's managed to get a- another bottle of alcohol and his bedsheets are covered in this red wine. And I just thought, you know, in my naivety, this is someone that just likes alcohol, right?
- MAMacklemore
(laughs) .
- SBSteven Bartlett
No one had taught me this concept of addiction, the disease of addiction. I had no idea what it was, so it wasn't until things escalated even further that there was almost an intervention moment-
- MAMacklemore
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... where we literally met one- one evening 'cause there- there'd been an incident, caused a lot of damage, and it was basically like an ultimatum moment.
- MAMacklemore
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Then I went on the journey of understanding what addiction was and the disease of addiction as you describe it. When Jay spoke to you on Jay's podcast, I could see he was doing a similar thing to what I was doing when I was reach- researching your story, which was like trying to understand the cause of it, and I'm not even sure if that's the right question. Do you know what I mean?
- MAMacklemore
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Like, we're all searching for a cause-
- MAMacklemore
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and y- and so I wanted to ask the question to you, like, what is, in your view, how did that relationship with drugs and alcohol come to be?
- MAMacklemore
You know, I think that for me, it was the first time in my life where I felt an escape from my head. It was like-
- SBSteven Bartlett
What was g- what was going on in your head?
- MAMacklemore
I don't even know, but I just felt a reprieve. I felt this like, this elation, this moment of like all of these thoughts in my head are gone and I am here with this bottle and no one's around and I get to be a secret and I get to hide this and I feel free. I feel free from whatever it was in that, you know, 14-year-old puberty, hormonal teenager that was going on in my life. It was like whoosh, quiet. And, um, I had the allergy from the very beginning. It was, you know, one shot, two shot, what does four feel like, what does eight feel like? And all of a sudden I'm taking 12 shots of vodka, um, you know, on a school night by myself, hopping on the bus and, you know, running from the police and it was a crazy first time drinking alcohol that never stopped for me. Every time pretty much that I drank turned into a crazy event like that, um. But I don't know, I don't know exactly at the time what I was... what I wanted to escape from. I think that there was just that changing reality. There was that, ooh, I like to be able to- to skew what's in front of me and to silence the mind.
- SBSteven Bartlett
From your- from going through the process of recovery and rehab and all of those things, you've met a lot of other people that have struggled with the disease of addiction. Has any of that process taught you anything about your own relationship or the causal factors of your own relationship with substances and alcohol?
- MAMacklemore
You know, I think that there's through lines. Absolutely. And I think that for a- a lot of us that have the disease of addiction, there's trauma, there's childhood trauma, there's, you know, if- if the disease kicks in later in life, maybe that trauma came into play later. But I think that there is a through line in what I have seen in others, um, and that's, you know, some sort of thing that we're- we're holding onto or a secret or, you know, something that happened to us in life that, um...Drugs and alcohol kind of numbs and takes away, it quells that- that inner guilt, that inner shame, whatever it might be. I think that there's a through line between us addicts in- in our past. And then I think, also, there's people that just have the allergy.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah.
- MAMacklemore
And maybe it's- maybe it's not related to trauma at all, maybe we're not predisposed, or maybe we are predisposed. It's a combination. I don't know, but I do see that, um, a lot of people are trying to escape.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's a difficult thing, especially for the, um, the people around that individual. Like, to- because, you know, going back to my own example with my best friend and business partner, I didn't have the tools-
- MAMacklemore
Mm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... to know how to be there.
- MAMacklemore
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You know? And I also didn't have the information to understand what I was dealing with. Like if you'd asked me when I was 25, like what was going on with my friend, "Oh, he just loves to get drunk."
- MAMacklemore
Right. It's part of the culture.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. And then when you made your-
- 25:10 – 33:30
How has your struggle played into the music
- MAMacklemore
- SBSteven Bartlett
You've been so successful throughout your career with your music, and it's, it's, it's an interesting ... Hearing those stories of the struggle and the, the ups and the downs and the battle with that, and then looking at your, your catalog in terms of music. And I was ... It was crazy. I was going through, I was going through all your songs, going back through the, through the years, and I'm looking at the numbers on these fucking records and I'm thinking fucking 1.4 billion views, f- f- 500 million views, 500, 200 million views and huge, huge numbers. The records are ... They feel timeless when I listen to them. Um, there's a real t- uh, real, real talent there, which, you know, when I think about the struggle you've been through, then I look at the back catalog of the work you've produced from an artistic standpoint, I'm asking myself, "What's the relationship here?"
- MAMacklemore
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Like, has, has that f- has your struggles played into the music or has your struggles sort of taken away from the music and your potential? Like, what is the relationship and what has, what has music been throughout that struggle to you?
- MAMacklemore
That's a great question, and it's honestly a question that I think about too. Like, I've, I've kind of asked myself that same question in the last 48 hours. I don't know if I have an answer. I believe that it's all panned out the way that it's supposed to be. Has drugs and alcohol affected m- me being prolific? Absolutely. It's taken away work ethic in moments. It's taken away, um, seasons, years of, of time where I could have been focused, where I could have been building momentum, but instead I chose the path of, um, instant gratification. And we were talking about this last night. There's one of, um, my mentors and OGs in my 12-step program, or one of them, um, you know, her name was Rita, and she had this business card that she used to give out to people and it said that her greatest regret in life is trading in what she wanted in the bigger picture for what she wanted in that moment. And I always think about my life in that way of, "Is this what I want for the greater good, for my story to be? Or am I acting out of place of desire? Am I acting out of place of wanting to change the way that I feel right now knowing that that will hinder me and that's not really what I want? What place am I coming from?" And weighing those. And I think for a lot of my life, it was, "No, I want this right now." And that oftentimes is a destructive pattern, whether it was sex or with drugs or, you know, whatever, um, of trading in what I truly wanted, what I truly believed to be the truth. Because my truth is that I am the best version of myself when I'm clear, when I am silent enough to be able to be a conduit to something that is outside of my understanding. I couldn't even put it into words. It's that magic that happens in the studio where all of a sudden you're almost removed from the pen that's writing the song. And, um, you know, I choose to call it God, but that God presence, that being is, is absolutely moving through, through me. I've never been able to feel that, um, without a spiritual practice. Music has always been a spiritual practice for me. But I think that it's made me who I am. I've made tons of mistakes, and since I've been famous, I made tons of mistakes that were, that were, you know, influenced by the drugs that I was doing or, you know, the, the positions that I got myself in. But those also turned into learning moments, that turned into maybe a song or maybe a conversation or maybe the thing that I needed to share about in a 12-step meeting that saves someone's life. I don't know. I don't know. But I know that, um, I'm here. I know that I'm here for a reason. I know that my catalog, um, is something that I'm super proud of. And, you know, beyond the numbers, it's like ... Last night driving from Birmingham into London, I listened to Ben, my new album. And I hadn't had that really, that moment for a while, of listening to my album in its entirety, 'cause you're working so hard on it. There's so many nuanced things. It's like can't even just enjoy it. And I sat in the car and I listened to it all the way through, and, um, it's the best feeling to be like, "You know what? I, I worked really hard on something." And, um, and all of these little moments, all of these mistakes, all of this pain eventually finds its way into purpose, and I think that that's an I- an artist's highest form, is to be able to take pain and repurpose it into purpose.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Wh- what is giving you that or, like, you described that moment in the studio where you're clear and you're almost channeling something, your, your higher creativity, whatever that is.Have you been able to figure out what it is that causes those moments of, of clarity and, and focus and stability? And then on the other side of the coin, what causes the, the chaos in our lives, the instability?
- MAMacklemore
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Is there any causal factors?
- MAMacklemore
Yes. For me, it is exercise.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- MAMacklemore
It's getting outside. It's, like, actually cardio. It is being of service to other people. It is a spiritual practice. It is coming from faith rather than fear. It is thinking about ourselves less and others more. It is being still in the studio, not thinking about, "What is this going to do for the world?" but just actually being present and removing the ego, which is what all of those things help facilitate, right? Like, when we- when we're of service, when we work out, when we show up, when we're at peace, when we think about ourselves less, we're removing the ego. I'm stripping it away. It's a process of excavation. And the opposite is when I'm thinking about, "Okay, what if this song doesn't work at radio? What if this, you know... What if TikTok doesn't, you know, do the challenge? What if, uh..." You know, whatever it is when I'm future surfing, thinking about the outcome rather than enjoying the process. The process is where the magic happens. The rest of it, I've never... For all of the records that I've ever put out, there has never been a moment of any calculation that has worked.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- MAMacklemore
Doesn't work. The records that I've been like, "Oh, yeah, this is gonna be the one," those are the ones with, like, two million views on YouTube. And the ones that I'm like, you know, "Who knows," those are the ones with, you know, that really affected culture, that really, like, got out there and, you know, the, the world knows these songs 10, 11 years later or five years later or whatever it is. I think the intention in the studio is so important because even if, you know, even if I put out a, a new album that doesn't stream as, as well as the last one or whatever it is, that's not my metric. If I'm, if I am basing my identity around those numbers and those metrics, um, I will always be disappointed. My bucket will always be half full. And if I'm basing it on what was the intention, what am I actually trying to get at, the music is gonna hit who it hits. It was already written. I just have to get out of the way. When I try to control, hang on, when I try to p- play puppet master, that's when I become miserable. And, um, and I'm not effective at my job.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So
- 33:30 – 42:46
Your most important record
- SBSteven Bartlett
two questions here, then, on that basis. You know, I'm sure people ask you what your favorite record is or whatever. I'm not really interested in that. I know it's like choosing your favorite children or whatever, and they're all different for various reasons. But in terms of the most important record you think you've ever recorded, the one that you believe has benefited, um, others, the world, the most, irrespective of performance metrics, what, what is that record and why?
- MAMacklemore
It's two records. It's, um, Same Love-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- MAMacklemore
... and Other Side.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Interesting.
- MAMacklemore
And I think Same Love is the obvious answer 'cause it came out at a time where we as, uh, I'll, I'll speak for, for America, but kinda, you know, even more, it came out at a time in America where we were having this conversation around legalizing gay marriage, where, um, there was a shift. There's a cultural shift. And that song became, became something bigger than, than me. It became a mov- a moment for a movement towards equality. And as a, as a songwriter, as a artist, as someone that, um, you know, prides themself on, uh, on the pen and the, and the ways that it can move spirit, that's the... That's up there. That has to be one, or number two, the other one is Other Side. And Other Side is a record that not as many people know, but it is one that... It was kinda the first, you know, it was the first record I wrote when I got outta treatment, and it was that I, I am literally not even here right now. I'm just trying to be silent enough in my own head to just let this magic happen. But it talked about the disease of addiction for the first time, and I kinda was like, "Ugh, I just need to get this out. I don't know, I- I am a addict, and I don't wanna, like, hide this shit. And I know it's not cool, I know it's not gonna sell more records, I know it's not what anyone, anyone else is talking about. I know it's not what my favorite rappers are talking about, but I am an addict, and I have to be sober." Um, and I needed to let m- whoever was listening to me at the time, the 2,000 fans that I had, I needed to let them know that this is who I was. And, um, you know, it's said that we're only as sick as our secrets. I didn't wanna be sick anymore. I just wanted to tell my truth, and that was the record to do it. And what I watched happen after that, I'll never forget. People coming to the shows, you know, six people, 12 people, 14 people in recovery coming because they heard Other Side, and it changed their life. And-I know what that feels like as someone on the other end of it whose life was changed so many times by the music that I was listening to. And, yeah, it's those two. Those are the ones.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I listened to Drug Dealer earlier. And, um, I listened to it, but then I looked at the comments section.
- MAMacklemore
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And it is, like ... It's profound. It's profound that the second comment on that video is from a recovering heroin addict who's crying while they're watching that video because it's making them feel heard, seen, and understood, um, in a really profound way. And every, every comment was like that. Every comment was, um, speaking to, like, the liberating and therapeutic r- impact that song was having on, uh, you know, thousands and thousands of people. It's a really profound thing. Uh, uh, it's almost, you know ... It's a lot, isn't it? I- in terms of, you know, you talked about those people coming to your show, the seven, the 10, the 12. Has that ever felt like ... And this is a strange word to use, but does it- has that ever felt like an emotional weight at all? Because y- you're hearing these stories. I sat with Jordan Peterson, in fact, and he talked about how people coming up to him and telling them about their own journeys and their emotional path to recovery or healing can sometimes feel like a, like a- an emotional weight. It's a lot to carry.
- MAMacklemore
I feel the opposite.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Really?
- MAMacklemore
I feel ... I feel connection. It connects me to the art, because I'm not in the same place that I was in 2009 when I wrote that song.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- MAMacklemore
My life looks very different. I think when I hear people say that they were moved or they were transformed or that they d- felt some inspiration or, you know, whatever it is, um, for one, it's an, it's an opportunity. And I think that maybe this is where Jordan and I differ, is that, um, I'm an addict, this person coming up to me is an addict, and there's an immediate connection there that I can't describe. I don't know what it is, but it's just like, "Oh, you got the same ... Oh my God, we had the same thing. How are you doing with y- with your journey? How are you doing with yours?" Um-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- MAMacklemore
And it's not a weight. It's more like, "Oh, thank you for ..." W- you know, the, the meet-and-greet of, "Thank you so much. Appreciate it. Thank you so much." Like, that's a weight. That's just going through the motions.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- MAMacklemore
The actual moments of people telling me those things when I'm like, "Okay, let's pause. Like, we don't need to get through the line so fast. Let's, you know ... We'll get to the hotel when we get to the hotel. Let me be present with this person, because this conversation is changing my life. I'm reminded why I wrote that record in the first place."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- MAMacklemore
I'm reminded of the beauty that happens when we share honestly. Like, those are those moments where I'm like, "Thank you." That's where I feel like I am the recipient of ... The recipient of a gift, um, that's coming full circle, because they're reminding me, um, of how important it is to, to share honestly, regardless of how it looks, regardless is- of how it's perceived. And I think that so much of the time, there is this, you know, "Well, if I, if I tell my truth, will I be an outcast? Will I be accepted? Will I be kicked out of the tribe? Will I, um, still be a part of ... We want to be a part of?" And there's this thing that happens, like what happened with your friend when you saw him finally, when you saw him not as the alcoholic that was fucking shit up in the house, or messing up your life, or, like, "Why doesn't he just stop?" But you saw him in his rawest state. That's his, that's raw humanity right there. And when we demonstrate that, when we can show others that we can be raw, it just ... It inspires, because other people are like, "Oh, I can tell my truth too and I'm not gonna get kicked out? Wow! Let me show up as my authentic self."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Quick one. As you guys know, we're lucky enough to have BlueJeans as a sponsor and supporter of this podcast. For anyone that doesn't know, BlueJeans is an online video conferencing tool that allows you to have slick, fast, good-quality online meetings without any of those glitches that you'd normally find with other meeting online providers. Uh, you know the ones I'm talking about. And they have a new feature called BlueJeans Basic, which I wanted to tell you about. BlueJeans Basic is essentially a free version of their top-quality video conferencing. And that means that you get immersive video experiences. You get that super high quality, super easy and zero-fuss experience. And apart from zero time limits on meetings and calls, it also comes with high-fidelity audio and video, including Dolby Voice. They also have expertise-grade security so you can collaborate with confidence. It's so smooth that it's quite literally changed the game for myself and my team without compromising quality at all. So if you'd like to check them out, search bluejeans.com and let me know how you get on. DM me, tweet me, whatever works for you. Let me know how you find it. Over the last couple of, how long, maybe four months, I've been changing my diet, shall I say. Many of you who have really been paying attention to this, to this podcast will know why. I've sat here with some incredible health experts. And one of the things that's really come through for me, which has caused a big change in my life, is the need for us to have these superfoods, these green foods, these vegetables. And then, a company I love so much, and a company I'm an investor in, and then a company that sponsored this podcast and that I'm on the board of recently announced a new product, which absolutely spoke to exactly where I was in my life, and that is Huel. And they announced Daily Greens. Daily Greens is a product that contains 91 superfoods, nutrients, and plant-based ingredients, which helps me meet that dietary requirement with the convenience that Huel always offers. Unfortunately, it's only currently available in the US, but I hope-I pray that it'll be with you guys in the UK too. So if you're in the US, check it out. It's an incredible product. I've been having it here in LA for the last couple of weeks and it's a game changer. (paper rustling)
- 42:46 – 45:45
Your relationship with social media
- SBSteven Bartlett
Social media, you don't, you don't really do social media, do you? You don't really, in terms of like engaging, I heard that you are not the biggest fan of social media.
- MAMacklemore
(sighs) Well, that hurts my feelings 'cause I try pretty hard.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Well, I heard-
- MAMacklemore
No, I'm just kidding.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) Yeah, I was gonna say.
- MAMacklemore
Um, no I do.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But you're not, but you're not out there making, you're not out there every day talking about your life and showing behind the scenes and-
- MAMacklemore
Yeah. Social media for me is part of my job, sometimes I'm great at it, sometimes... I mean, I'm just this guy. I'm like, "Okay, what are we doing on, you know, social media now?" And then it's like zoop.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But outside of work?
- MAMacklemore
Outside of work, no. I mean, I want to be present. I, I want to be like, you know, it's like my kids show up today and, you know, my videographer is like, "Yo, if you can get a little bit of iPhone footage with the kids, like walking around, like that'd be awesome." And I'm like, you know, asking my wife five minutes into our walk like, "Hey, do you mind getting some footage of us walking?" Like, and I'm just like, nevermind, nevermind, nevermind. It doesn't matter. Like, it doesn't matter. What matters is that I'm with my kids and that I'm being present and that I'm happy. Um, and I'm o- and I'm off my phone 'cause I've experienced both ways and it's a balance, right? Like, there are times where I need to be on my phone and I need to be on social media and I need to be handling whatever needs to get handled, but, um, no, I think it's, it's about the relationship that an individual has with social media. And again, it comes back to intention. Is the intention for the most likes, for the most engagement, for the most fol- Like, if that's what it is, then there's always going to be a void there that's looking to be filled and it can be really toxic. And I was talking to, you know, a couple, a couple guys on, on tour with us and, and I, you know, 20-year-old, 21 and just talking, you know, they're just constantly analyzing TikTok and trying to figure out why did this post perform and this one didn't. And maybe it's because we're over in Europe and the geotargeting and all of this. And I'm like, "You guys are 20, like you're on tour in Europe, like go out and have fun. Explore, like live outside of TikTok." And when this is all that they've known and that this, and that this platform is the reason why I know he exists and why his songs have gotten out there, it can be really challenging, and I feel for the younger generation. And I feel for the older generation that's like, "Yo, the label's telling me that I have to do this and I really don't want to be here at all, but here I am, post." Um, there's this, there's a spiritual sickness that can be easily, um, insidiously infiltrate our psyche if we're just here nonstop. And, and I just don't want to be.
- 45:45 – 50:03
Advice for your younger self
- MAMacklemore
- SBSteven Bartlett
On that point of, um, you know, those 20-year-olds that are, are with you and you're giving them that advice. If you could, um, you know, you've had this immense career and, you know, a lot of people have great careers, but yours has had so many twists and turns and twists and turns that the wisdom you've gained from every twist and turn, I believe is pretty profound. That's why I really loved your conversation with Jay. If you were to go back and be able to have a conversation now with that young Ben at 14 years old, let's say right before that first-
- MAMacklemore
Mm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... drink.
- MAMacklemore
Mm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What advice would you impart on him about life?
- MAMacklemore
It's tough to say and it's, you picked an interesting time period because you picked before and I don't think that I would've... I don't think that I would've warned that 14-year-old, maybe I would've. I think that... But I don't think it would've done anything. You know what I mean? Like, maybe that conversation would've looked like, "Bro, you're an addict. You're never gonna be able to shut this off. It's gonna cause way more pain than good." But at the same time, I can't discredit the experiences that I've had that have led me to this table right here in this moment. And if it wasn't for those mistakes, um, you know, I, I have a different story. I have a different, um, arsenal to pick from in terms of what moves me creatively. And, um, again, repurposing that, that pain, but a lot of that pain has hurt others, has hurt close family members or, or my wife or best friends. And, um, those moments are hard to deal with. I think if I could tell my 14-year-old self anything, it'd be like, "Bro, you're gonna do what you're gonna do. Enjoy it. Find gratitude, a spiritual practice. Get outside of your own head. Get into the act of loving and being there for others and just don't stop." I think that when I have stopped in my life, when I have let up on, on the gas, not just like, not stop in terms of the work ethic, but stop the spiritual practice. That's the thing that's always brought me back. It's not the work, it's not the amount of engagement, it's not the algorithm, it's not the YouTube streams. It's none of that. What actually makes you happy and fulfilled, find that thing and push into it as hard as you can. That's where the magic lives.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You used the term spiritual practice to describe what that is. What, in- in detail, what- what- what do you mean by spiritual practice for you?
- MAMacklemore
(smacks lips) Well, it's looked like many different things throughout my- my time here. You know, in moments it's been a meditation practice. Uh, in moments it's been a yoga practice. In moments it's been, uh, you know, many 12-step meetings throughout the week or- or step work or working with others, but I think it's the art of just getting outside of oneself and getting grounded in the moment and serving others. That has been my consistent- consistent point of reference is, "You know what? When you feel spiritually sick, reach out to someone else." Whether it's picking up the phone or call that person that you've been avoiding or whatever, just get outside of your own self. Do the thing that makes you uncomfortable. Push into that because that's when life all of a sudden becomes vibrant. Colors come back. It becomes alive of like, "Oh, yes, I- I- I turned this off. I stopped thinking about me and what I wanted in the moment and I just showed up for someone else and I found that connection. I found God in those moments. I found that little piece that reminded me of who I am just by showing up for- for another."
- 50:03 – 59:20
The people that you hurt
- SBSteven Bartlett
A second ago you talked about- when you were talking about other people, you said that one of the hardest things is knowing that you would go on to hurt other people.
- MAMacklemore
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Who did you hurt?
- MAMacklemore
(inhales deeply) I've hurt my parents. (sighs) I've hurt my wife probably the most. Um, I think anyone that... I was being dishonest to. You know? There's this double... It's almost this double life that- that needs to be lived. And, you know, and I would go off and I'd relapse and then I'd, you know, I'd lie about it. I wouldn't, you know... The- relapsing is, you know, for me has always been a sneaky thing. It's not like I'm, like, all of a sudden like, "Hey guys, just so everyone knows, I'm high again." No. This is, like, quiet, hush, um, I'm trying not to get caught. And in those seasons, protecting that. And people are probably like, "Yo, what's going on with them?" Like, you know, and I'm lying about that. And it's just a really toxic spot. You know, I'm gaslighting my wife and- and, you know, making her feel crazy. I think that that's probably, if she was here asked what's the hardest part of being, you know, in a- in a partnership with an addict, it's, like, those moments where he made me feel crazy. It's not that I went back to the drugs necessarily, it's that, um, I made her feel like she was- she was crazy and that she was off because she was even questioning me. And, again, turning into someone that I'm like, "That's the worst version of myself. That's the shittiest version of myself." That's something that in my- in my heart I know to be, um, not the way that I want to treat anybody, much less my significant other or my best friends or my team, but here I am again putting everything to the wayside just so I conti- can continue to use. And, um, it's a- it's a pretty dark place.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Was there a point where you thought you might lose her?
- MAMacklemore
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, (smacks lips) relapse and COVID, you know, the beginning of COVID definitely was, um, you know, she kicked me out of the house and, um, I went to stay at my parents' condo and I remember just, uh, driving around aimlessly like, "I'm gonna lose my kids. I'm gonna lose this marriage." And I think the thing that... I think the s- thing that scares me the most is, um, if I'm being honest, is not being in- in my kids' lives and the devastation that that would potentially and that impact that it would- a divorce would have on them. (smacks lips) And the other flip side of it is I believe that kids are resilient and that that pain can be repurposed and that, you know, half of the world is divorced and, you know, beauty can come out of it and does all the time and people end up in much better situations at a divorce. So it's- I'm not against divorce, but for me and my- and my kids, that was the thing that I was holding onto was just this, like, I want our family to stay together and the fact that I can- I... It would be because of me. It would be because of my self-centered, instant gratification, need to escape, not actually working my 12-step program ass. Like that would- I would be the reason that this family broke up, and I would have to- to hold that. And that weight, the idea of that weight still seems too much to- to live with. I- I know I could do it, but in that moment of that- that last relapse, I was definitely a... (sighs) Yeah, it was- it was a real scare into, um, "Look what you're about to lose. For what? For this? This doesn't even make you happy. This stopped working."... right away. It never worked. It never worked for you. It never worked. It never worked in the long run. Even if you had a good night or two, in the big picture, um, you have an allergy and that allergy's trying to kill you every time you pick it up.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I've read, um, about a story when you were in a... I think you were in a hotel room or something and your wife had taken a pregnancy test, and you had, you had just relapsed and she was in the toilet and you heard her crying through the door.
- MAMacklemore
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And you knew that... You knew that those weren't happy tears.
- MAMacklemore
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Because she was pregnant.
- MAMacklemore
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Can you take me back to that moment and just tell me exactly what had happened? You'd... You were in... It was a hotel?
- MAMacklemore
No, it was at our house.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You were at our house?
- MAMacklemore
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay.
- MAMacklemore
Yeah, we were in our home and, um... Yeah. It's, it's, it's kind of, um... I mean, it's the truth, but it's, um... Yeah. I'll, I'll just say it. I mean, I'm there, I'm high. She doesn't know it, but she knows it. But, you know, she hasn't caught me yet and I just keep denying it, and, um, you know, her period was late, went and got her the pregnancy test and I'm just like begging to a God that I had no connection with, "Please, please let this be a negative pregnancy test. Um, I'm not ready yet. I'm not ready to be a dad. I'm not ready to give up the drugs. I'm not ready to give up the drugs." And I remember just, like, on the carpet literally, like, praying, and then I heard the tears, and I knew what that meant, that she was pregnant, and I knew that that meant that I needed to get clean, and it was that moment of, like, that pull, and I think that that's the hardest part. I haven't really spoke about this. I think that's the hardest part about the disease of addiction, is this pull, is the compulsion and the obsession for more, yet knowing that more is the thing that is leading to depression, the rock bottom, the not wanting to be here anymore. But it's this just... The at odds, and I, I felt that inner turmoil of just, "I'm not ready to be a dad because I still wanna get high, and I know I need to stop but I am just not ready yet." And, um, sure enough she was pregnant, and I got clean, and she was pregnant with our first daughter, Sloan. So, you know, I think m- my, my reservation is just like Sloan watching this someday and being like, "Oh, tight. So dad was super high on the carpet and didn't really want me." That's not true at all either. I mean, I was high and I, at the time I didn't want her, but when I got clean it was like, "Okay, let's have this baby." (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- MAMacklemore
Like, I wanna be a dad. I wanna be a dad who, um, my kids never see loaded, that they don't even know that part of me, that they don't have to be like, "Oh, dad's, dad's high again," or, "Dad's hiding," or, "Mom kicked Dad out of the house." That they don't even know that part of my, my story. Um, that's what I wanted.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What have you come to learn about the journey of life and, and as it relates to, like... Uh, I said a second ago that the ups and the downs and the ups and the downs, but you, you persevere, and that's really all the choice we have, is to persevere and to find something meaningful to aim at today, and then we'll get another chance again tomorrow, and we kinda like write off yesterday and the day before 'cause that's out of our control now and it's about "What, what can I aim at today?" As you sit here today, what are you aiming at? Like, the past is the past. Like, we can't go back and change things.
- MAMacklemore
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It is what it is. It's... I think it's important to be aware of it and to admit it to ourselves to, at least to learn some wisdom from it, but as you sit here today, you're,
- 59:20 – 1:02:57
What gets you out of bed today?
- SBSteven Bartlett
uh, you know, as you woke up this morning, this is, today is in play.
- MAMacklemore
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What are you aiming at today? And as we look off into the next, what, two decades of your life, what?
- MAMacklemore
I, maybe to a fault, don't think about the future. What I'm thinking about is here, and then I'm like, "Okay, well, let's zoom out from here." I have a show tonight.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- MAMacklemore
I wanna put on a great show. We're in London.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- MAMacklemore
It's like 6,000 people, sold out. Like, I wanna put on a great show. What is it going to take for me to put on a great show tonight? Um, my family's in town, in London. Like, I, I just don't think like that.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah.
- MAMacklemore
And I... And I watch my wife, who does, and other people who do, and it's like I have an inability to think big picture. I have an exceptional ability at focusing on the thing that is in front of me, and I believe that it probably has to do with ADD-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- MAMacklemore
... and the way that my brain works and the chemistry, but it's what... It has created a, um, a work ethic and a focus that, you know, I can just be in the studio for 14 hours or I can be doing a music video and, and editing it and just keep going, and that's how I got good at my craft, was putting in those long, long hours where other people would be like, "All right. Let's go outside," and I'm like, "No. It's not done yet. Let's keep working." Um, but in terms of the next 20 years, I don't know. I don't know. I- I'm excited to...To pivot. You know, I, I don't think that, you know, in a decade, I'm gonna be like, you know, "I can't wait to play this show tonight." I don't know. You know? We'll see what happens, but what I have realized an- and- and part of this comes from, um, you know, working on my golf clothing company, Bogey Boys, which has been so fun, such a labor of, of love and to be able to design clothes and watch people wear them and, you know, the, the creative process that that has been particularly in COVID, that's not gonna be my only pivot. It's just not. It doesn't fulfill me in the same way. What does fulfill me with actual meaning is, is our youth program called The Residency in Seattle and thinking about actually, you know, getting a permanent spot year-long with staffing where we have a home for The Residency. That actually is inspiring to me. That has meaning. That has a lasting potential that's deeper than, like, what color polo is this gonna be.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- MAMacklemore
And I think that they can co-exist 'cause I do enjoy this as well. I love Bogey Boys. I love golf. But for the bigger picture, what do you want your legacy to be? And not for the- the purpose of ego, but, like, how do you want to leave the greatest impact, to make the greatest impact with our precious time on this Earth? We don't have m- we don't know how much we le- have left. It's finite. It could be, you know, gone tomorrow. What can you hang your hat on and be like, "You know what? I took a risk. I got uncomfortable. I sacrificed. I showed up. I worked really hard. I celebrated the wins. I took the losses on the chin, and I kept going." That's the kinda life I want, and it's the kinda life I wanted today, and it's the same life I want in 20 years, regardless of where that leads me.
- 1:02:57 – 1:05:43
Are you happy now?
- MAMacklemore
- SBSteven Bartlett
All those years ago, your dad asked you a question at that family get-together. He said, "Are you happy?" All these years later, you're sat in this table in London. Are you happy?
- MAMacklemore
I think happiness is fleeting, and happiness comes and goes. I think that what is sustainable is meaning, is purpose. I'm not gonna be happy every day. It's gonna go like this. In this moment, yes, I am happy.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) Good.
- MAMacklemore
But, but in general, in- in my life right now, am I happy? I would say absolutely yes, but there's trials and tribulations through it all. And what I have, what I have found is that those moments of, of, of being tested, of sorrow, of betrayal, of growth, a- all of those turn into progress if we can use them as medicine, if we can accept them as blessings rather than this idea... This is one thing I've been thinking about a lot lately, is just this idea of, like, victimhood, of, of mentally going to a place of, "Oh, they wronged me," or, "I'm a victim." No. This is an opportunity. This is a blessing that has been put in front of me, and how I get to handle it now and show up. And it becomes toxic in my mind if I'm thinking of it about, "What are they doing to me? How could they do this?" Just like-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- MAMacklemore
... we were talking about earlier. It becomes, um, medicine when I can show up from a place of, "I might not know why this is happening, but I have faith that I am absolutely at the right place right now, and I'm gonna show up clean. I'm not gonna escape. I am going to be my true self, tell the truth even when I don't want to, and, um, and keep it pushing." That's what creates meaning and fulfillment, and that is what I'm after, not momentary happiness.
- SBSteven Bartlett
There seems to be a real authenticity to your new album, Ben, and I think, I mean, maybe that's even evidenced in the choice of the name to some degree because you've called it after yourself, um, after the- the name that your parents gave to you. And throughout the album, I felt a certain sense of... I was gonna say I don't give a fuck about, like, what I'm supposed to be-
- MAMacklemore
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... to some degree-
- MAMacklemore
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... because it feels like all of you as opposed to just a narrow part of you, if that makes sense. I don't-
- MAMacklemore
Absolutely.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So, like, a- 'cause... And I- I- I say that
- 1:05:43 – 1:09:59
Your new album
- SBSteven Bartlett
in part because I listened to the first record, and then I got, like, six or seven records down, and it was just, like, you hadn't... The, the first record didn't sound like the sixth record.
- MAMacklemore
No. (laughs) No.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It was, like, a completely different kind of expression.
- MAMacklemore
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So I was thinking it's kind of someone that has... kinda just doesn't really give a fuck about what they're supposed to-
- MAMacklemore
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... make, and they're making what they care about.
- MAMacklemore
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Maybe that's my assessment of it. Um, how accurate was that? What was your thinking going into this? And how is this project different to all of the other projects you've-
- MAMacklemore
I, I think that you summed it up beautifully. And, um, I love to be able to do all of that and just, like, walk into the studio and be like, "What, what is speaking to me today?" Um, (sighs) you know, maybe it's a dance song from 1984. Maybe it's a, you know, I'm going through something. Maybe it's a, a pop song. Maybe it's like I- I wanna rap, you know, you know, uh, with Primo scratching, and it sounds like it's from the '90s. Like, it's... Whatever direction I wanna go is, like... I don't wanna feel limited, like, "Oh, but that's not what you do." No, I- I could do whatever I wanna do. Um, and you're right, in that it's all me. Like, those are all bits and pieces of me.And I think for a long time... And that's what I've always done, kind of, so how does it differ? I don't know. I feel like all... Maybe there's been a little bit co- more cohesion on other albums, but for the most part, that's what I've always done, is those are all, those are all facets of my expression. And, um, and I think it's confused people, you know? 'Cause like, it, you know, I'll have homies that are like, "Yo, you dropped Heroes and then you came out with this, like, you know, pop song with the music video directed by your daughter. Like, what is going on?" And I'm like, "Yep, that's what I did."
- SBSteven Bartlett
But doesn't authenticity confuse people anyway? 'Cause conformity doesn't con- confuse people.
- MAMacklemore
No, you're right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Conformity fits.
- MAMacklemore
Yes, conformity fits.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Authenticity doesn't.
- MAMacklemore
No. And they're, and they want me to be this version.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- MAMacklemore
And, you know, radio wants me to be this version, and you know, this... It's like, you're right. I mean, authenticity confuses people.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- MAMacklemore
And, and once people can box, put it in a box, package it, be able to point to it, that this is this, this is that, it makes it a lot easier as an artist who, um, or as a, you know, observer, to judge.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- MAMacklemore
"I don't like it because it's this."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- MAMacklemore
Versus like, "Oh, shit, he did that, but then he did that, and I like that, but I would never listen..." You know, whatever.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- MAMacklemore
People are trying to figure it out, I'm like, "I'm just gonna keep making the music that I've always made." And, um, again, I have a faith now that it lands where it's supposed to land, and that process has been therapeutic for me, of just-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Detaching from-
- MAMacklemore
... detaching from the outcome, regardless of what it is, just like, just make it 'cause you love it, dude. That's all.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I think that's a super and, you know, powerful lesson, an important one, that I think everyone, without maybe n- r- realizing it, can actually really relate to. I even have that a lot on this show, where I will have such a diverse range of guests, that on every conversation I have, there's a comment saying like, "Get back to interviewing CEOs."
- MAMacklemore
Mm-hmm.
- 1:09:59 – 1:21:25
The last guest’s question
- MAMacklemore
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest asks a question for the next guest, not knowing who they're leaving it for. And the question that's been left for you by our previous guest is: Is there someone from your past that you should have a conversation with that you haven't had? If so, why haven't you had it, and what is that conversation?
- MAMacklemore
Hmm, that's a great question. As my parents get older, t- that there's probably some conversations there, particularly with my dad, that I, I go back and forth on having, and, uh, you know, a relationship that I might want with them that I think that there's some fear around maybe he doesn't desire with me. And, um, it's a tricky one with parents. It's a tricky one with family. Like, having deep conversations around what our relationship looks like, or what it looked like growing up or whatever. Um, you know, I'm from a family where, you know, you kinda, you smile through it. I think there's a reason why I never heard my parents fight. I think that there is a, um, "Just be happy. Don't talk about it, just be happy." And, uh, that hasn't been my experience on this Earth. And I think that, at times, it's challenged them. Um, and then at a certain point, you're like, "Yo, dude, your dad's 75 years old." Like, you know, he is who he is, and... But I think if my dad, if my dad passed tomorrow, um, I would probably feel like there was just... That I really make an effort to connect, um, on the level that, that I intuitively wanted to, outside of his reaction to my words.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I completely relate to that. With my own dad.
- MAMacklemore
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I completely relate. And I don't know why I've never had the conversation.
- MAMacklemore
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I don't know what it is. Is it, I don't think he's got the tools, I've not got the tools, we've not got the tools?
- MAMacklemore
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Fear.
- MAMacklemore
All three?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. Oh, yeah. (laughs)
- MAMacklemore
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
All three. Um...
- MAMacklemore
But you probably do have the tools.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I think it's interesting because you can have, I can have the tools with my girlfriend.
- MAMacklemore
That's what I'm saying.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Where we've, like, learnt together-
- MAMacklemore
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... how to do the tools. But then I look over at my dad and I go-... uh, we've not figured out how to (laughs) how to do this together.
- MAMacklemore
'Cause there's like, there, you know, we go through different... There's like a changing of the guard, almost. It's like our parents, you know, m- my parents were byproducts of, of their parents, and these are very different times in civilization. And where we have gotten to in terms of talking about our emotions, and, and mental health, and being able to process masculinity, or ego, or these thing, you know-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- MAMacklemore
... going to therapy, or going to a 12-step meeting, or you know, really working on ourselves. Like, my dad's never done any of that internal work because that's not what men did in his generation. And you know, sure, there's exceptions, but as a whole, um, my dad's generation was different. And I watched the younger generation from, from me, and the way that they're fluid, and love each other, and, and gender is a social construct, and these walls are getting torn down, and I'm like, I'm trying to keep up with it and, you know, I'm having my own moments of just like, "Wait, how does this fit in? What, what is this?" And I, I feel old all of a sudden. And they're just like, "Don't you get it?" Like, "This is all fake." And I'm, and I'm trying to, you know... So, I think that going to, to my dad, there is a certain level of just communication about emotions that I'm really used to, that he's not, 'cause he probably never had those conversations with his dad. His dad was like in the war and had five kids, and like just getting a meal on, you know, a meal to each one of those five boys in the house was a struggle alone, much less trying to talk about how you felt. That wasn't part of the day.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But if he wasn't gonna respond then, and you had a chance to say those last words, what would those words be? Irrespective of response or impact or feedback.
- MAMacklemore
You know what I've come to the conclusion of is that we're all doing the best that we can do. My dad's doing the best that he could do. And instead of me... 'Cause I have a lot of friends that didn't have a dad at all. Their dad peaced out, you know? And I think it's easy to, particularly when you have kids, you have this idea of what your parents are gonna be like as grandparents. And my grandparents, or my parents are great grandparents. I want them around more. Not even for the childcare, just because I think that family is so important. I think that nuclear family is so important. I think that we have, um, you know, we, we come from, like, communities where we helped raise children together and, you know, m- m- this porch looked out over to this porch, and we had actual, tangible, um, human connection. And I, I think that I've desired something in my, um, in having kids, in, in reflecting on my own childhood and what that was like with my parents now that I'm a dad. And I'm like, "Oh, I didn't do any of this with my dad. I didn't do... Damn, what was my life like?" Oh, he... You know, but instead of looking at it like in any way I am a victim, 'cause my dad worked so much or, you know, whatever it was-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- MAMacklemore
... it's like my dad was amazing. He worked so much, and he provided, and he sent my ass to rehab, and he sent me to college, and he showed up with love. And instead of like the opposite of all of that, like, "He's not doing this, this, this, this, this. I want him to be this, this, this." It's like my dad is who he is, and, um, it's made me who I am. And sure, I desire a closeness that I don't know if we'll ever get to, you know, or an, an open level of just hanging out, being okay with that, um, telling him how I really feel. I don't know if that's important. Um, but what's preventing me from having that conversation is that it's a hard, it's a hard conversation to have. Family is so layered. We're not talking about like a friend I met six years ago. We're talking about this person that brought me into this world, our DNA, the very fabric, the, our identity, this... It's a lot there. It's a lot there. And, um, I think sometimes I question if... How much do you push other people to get outside of their comfort zone? I know it's not comfortable. It's not comfortable for me. I definitely want to be comfortable for him. How much do you... I mean, what's preventing you from talking with your dad at whatever level it is?
- SBSteven Bartlett
I think it's probably just, uh, uh, to be honest, I think it's like I'm gonna say things, but I've just not tried in the way that I should've. It's just feeling like the bridge to doing that is not there. As in, I, what I mean by is like I don't think he's got the tools.
- MAMacklemore
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I don't think I've got the tools with him
Episode duration: 1:21:25
Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript
Transcript of episode gTnLQ3cobBM
Get more out of YouTube videos.
High quality summaries for YouTube videos. Accurate transcripts to search & find moments. Powered by ChatGPT & Claude AI.
Add to Chrome