No.1 Neuroscientist: NEW RESEARCH Your Life, Your Work & Your Sex Life Will Get Boring! (THE FIX)

1. 0:00 – 2:13

   Intro

   1. SBSteven Bartlett0:00

      What advice would you give me to make sure that my relationship stays fresh and new and spicy?

   2. TSDr. Tali Sharot0:05

      Actually, there's a great study that when people ... the sexual desire for the partner goes up.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett0:11

      Dr. Tali Sharot. She's a neuroscientist, author, one of the world's leading researchers on emotion, decision-making ...

   4. TSDr. Tali Sharot0:17

      And how to change our brains for the better. This is negatively affecting your life and you don't know it. We have a study where we asked people, "What was your favorite part on your vacation?" And we found the peak of enjoyment was 43 hours into the vacation, and people used one word more than any other word, and it was the word "first". The first view of the ocean, the first cocktail. And then the joy goes down and down and down. Why? It's because the input into your neurons is constant, and when things are not changing, our brain just stops responding. And the problem is that even if you're living your absolute best life, great relationship, a good job, comfortable home, after a while, those things don't bring us the joy that they should. 'Cause when something is always in front of you, you stop attending to it. That's true also for the not-so-great thing around us: sexism, racism, cracks in our relationships. After a while, we don't notice them, and if we don't notice them, we don't change them. One reason why happiness is low in midlife is because things are a little bit more routine. The problem is, we really don't like risk-taking.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett1:25

      So how do we change that?

   6. TSDr. Tali Sharot1:26

      Two main things. One is ...

   7. SBSteven Bartlett1:31

      Quick one. This is really, really fascinating to me. On the back end of our YouTube channel, it says that 69.9% of you that watch this channel frequently over the lifetime of this channel haven't yet hit the subscribe button. I just wanted to ask you a favor. It helps this channel so much if you choose to su- subscribe. Helps us scale the guests, helps us scale the production, and it makes the show bigger. So if I could ask you for one favor, if you've watched the show before and you've enjoyed it and you like this episode that you're currently watching, could you please hit the subscribe button? Thank you so much, and I will repay that gesture by making sure that everything we do here gets better and better and better and better. That is a promise I'm willing to make you. Do we have a deal?

2. 2:13 – 3:13

   Who Are You?

   1. SBSteven Bartlett2:15

      Tali, welcome back.

   2. TSDr. Tali Sharot2:18

      Thank you for having me back. Lovely to be here.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett2:20

      For those people that aren't familiar with your career, can you give us a little bit of an overview of your academic background, but really, I guess, the summary of the mission that you're on and the work that you've done. What are you trying to understand? What is it that you're, you're trying to do with your professional life?

   4. TSDr. Tali Sharot2:37

      So in very general terms, I'm trying to understand human behavior. Why do people do what they do? Why do they feel the way that they do? Um, and I use a lot of different methods to try to understand that. So I use neuroscience method. I really kind of try to look inside people's brains. Also, I look at behaviors. I'm kind of combining psychology, brain science. I also combine economics to try to understand motives, to try to understand needs. Um, and hopefully use that not only for us to understand human brains better, but also to make our life better, perhaps make

3. 3:13 – 5:14

   How to Become the Person You Want to Be

   1. TSDr. Tali Sharot3:13

      better decisions.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett3:14

      For anyone that's listening to this right now, that is, has a vision of who they want to become, and it's different from who they currently are in some way, habits, behaviors they want to adopt, is step one awareness? Is that step one, awareness of your own cycles and thoughts and patterns?

   3. TSDr. Tali Sharot3:32

      One thing you should concentrate on and be aware of is what is already good about yourself, right? So not only what do I wanna become, which I'm not, but what am I which is great? What already great skills I have, right? Personality traits I have. 'Cause those are things that you can build on, right? And so look at it not only in this kind of negative way, but look at it in a positive ways. And so once, once you've done that, yes, then we can say, "Okay, this is my goal," right? And the next thing is, how do I go from where I am to this goal? And if you have a specific plan, and y- you're not necessarily gonna follow that exact plan, right? But if you have a plan and you kind of really think through the details, what happens is that if you can imagine that vividly, that will then create your belief that it's more likely to happen, right? If we have a specific plan, concrete, that makes us feel it's more likely to happen. And if we think it's more likely to happen, we're more likely to follow through. And then there's a lot of little tricks of how to get us to follow through. Uh, one really important one is looking at your progress. So say you wanna go to the gym-

   4. SBSteven Bartlett4:48

      Mm-hmm.

   5. TSDr. Tali Sharot4:48

      ... and at the first week, you only go once a week, and then the next week, you go twice a week. Or maybe when you're go, you go, the first time you go, you're only running on the treadmill for 10 minutes, right? And then next time, 20 minutes. But put down those numbers so you can actually see them, 'cause when people can actually see their progress, that is extremely motivating, right? You always want to be a little bit above from where you were. So that's,

4. 5:14 – 6:54

   Why Making Progress Has a Huge Motivational Impact on Us

   1. TSDr. Tali Sharot5:14

      that's one thing that's hugely important.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett5:16

      Is there sort of scientific research that supports this idea that progress has a very sort of motivational impact on people?

   3. TSDr. Tali Sharot5:24

      Yes, absolutely. There are great studies. One study that I'm thinking of, um, was where people had to do a task which required them to learn the rules. And they would get money, um, rewards for doing it well. And every so often, they asked people, "How are you feeling right now?" What they found is, yes, when people got rewards, when they got money, they were feeling good. But turns out that they felt the best when they learned something new, right, when they progressed. That's when they were really feeling the best. And there was, there's another study in which people could play one of two games. One game, all the rules were clear. It was really easy for them to do the best that they could do.In another game, there was a bit of an uncertainty. They had to learn. It wasn't clear, right? It was challenging to some- some respect. And they could play those two games and then every- every few minutes they said, "Okay, you could stay in this game, or you can move to the other game." What they found is people liked to play the game where they had to learn, where there was uncertainty. They did not like to play the game where they always did well, where they were not progressing, where there's nothing to learn. So progress is really something that we strive for and when it happens, that really makes us feel better, right? It makes us feel like we are moving forward. We don't like to stay, even if where you are is great, right? Really, really great. After a while, it's not enough, right? You want to expand,

5. 6:54 – 8:27

   The Importance of Variety in Our Workplace

   1. TSDr. Tali Sharot6:54

      you wanna progress.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett6:55

      Those subject matters appear in your new book, Look Again, where you're talking about the importance of variety in our lives, and it really shows up in all aspects of our lives, this need for variety, um, which we're kind of talking about there. People want to try something new, they wanna learn something new, they wanna be stimulated in some way. It's very true in work. You talk about that a lot, and as an employer, it really kinda hit me that one of the most effective things I could do to keep my team members motivated would probably be to, like, change their jobs quite often or at least add new elements to their responsibilities quite often.

   3. TSDr. Tali Sharot7:30

      Yeah. What the book is about is about habituation, and habituation is basically the phenomena which governs basically every part of our brain, which is, we don't respond to things that don't change. When things are constant, where they're not changing, our brain just stops responding. And once you do change things around, even a little bit, then we start responding again. And at work, you know, it's often the case, in- in big companies, for example, that people will take employees and will let them rotate through different divisions once an a while, right? Because if you're staying at the same place, doing the same thing over and over and over and over again, you become complacent to some extent, right? But once you change, you're now talking to maybe a little- different people. Maybe the projects are a little bit different. Then you're start- you start encoding again. It also enhances your

6. 8:27 – 19:09

   What Is Habituation & How It Impacts Our Happiness

   1. TSDr. Tali Sharot8:27

      creativity.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett8:28

      The word habituation is quite a long word. I'm sure most people wo- won't be familiar with the word, probably never heard it before. I didn't hear about habituation until I was doing a lot of research ahead of my book and came across a lot of your research, but a really interesting way to illustrate what habi- habituation is, is with images like this. Now tell me- tell me what's going on here. We're gonna put this image on the screen, and also for those that- of you that are listening on audio, there will be a link to this image in the description of this episode. But essentially when you look at this image, in the center of this image, for 30 seconds, especially when you're looking at it on a computer screen, all of the colors disappear if you stay focused on that black dot in the middle of this image for 30 seconds.

   3. TSDr. Tali Sharot9:13

      So this was a discovery by, um, a Austrian physi- physician in 1804. What he discovered is that if you look, y- you have to not move your eyes, so fixate on the black cross and don't move your eyes. The colors fade away. They become gray, and if you're really good at this, so I've done this a few times and I was- I was able to do this, actually the gray goes away and the whole thing just becomes white. Why is that? It's because the input into your neurons if you're not moving your eyes, um, is constant, so the neurons are just getting the same input, so they stop responding. They're like-

   4. SBSteven Bartlett9:50

      Mm-hmm.

   5. TSDr. Tali Sharot9:50

      ... "Well, there's nothing new here. You know, let's save our resources for something else that's gonna come along." So you stop noticing the color altogether and that- that is habituation. Now once you move your eyes, color comes back, right? 'Cause now-

   6. SBSteven Bartlett10:04

      Or if anything moves in the background, like-

   7. TSDr. Tali Sharot10:05

      Yeah. Well, you d- yeah. Yeah, so then the, um, if you're moving your eyes, then the inputs into different neurons change and then you consciously perceive the colors again, and I think it's the same in our life. If everything is constant, we don't perceive the goods and we don't perceive the bad, but if we move our eyes enough, you know, metaphorically, then we'll start noticing and feeling again.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett10:30

      Do all animals do this habituation thing?

   9. TSDr. Tali Sharot10:33

      Yeah, so it's something really fundamental. You see this in every living creature, um, and I think to me that's what's so interesting about this, right? Because something that seems to affect every part of our life from our relationships, to our mental health, to our ability to innovate, you can actually track it down and you can see it's in every living animal there's this habituation, the fact that neurons respond less and less to things that don't change, right? And that's true for things just like sound. If you hear the same sound again and again and again and again, you're no longer conscious of it, you're no longer responding to it, so that's just perceptual habituation. But habituation is also true for the fundamental things in our life that we really care about, and this is why people can have really great things in their life, and I'm sure you do, right, maybe like a great relationship, a good job, or a comfortable home, but what's interesting is that after a while those things don't bring us the daily joy that they should, right? Because we kind of habituated to it, sort of like what- what is thrilling on Monday becomes boring on Friday. And the interesting thing is that's true also for the not so great thing around us. So there might be bad things around us, like, uh, sexism, racism, cracks in our relationships, or inefficiencies at work, but if they're there all the time, after a while we don't notice them, and if we don't notice them, we don't try to change them.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett12:09

       Where does this come from, this- this idea that once we're exposed to something, we kind of-... phased it out and can't see it anymore?

   11. TSDr. Tali Sharot12:18

       It's because if something is in front of us for a while, and we're still alive, nothing bad happened, right? Then the brain doesn't really need to respond to it anymore.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett12:29

       Because the brain's trying to conserve resources.

   13. TSDr. Tali Sharot12:31

       Right. Right.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett12:31

       Yeah.

   15. TSDr. Tali Sharot12:31

       We need the resources to be ready for the new thing that is coming your way. Right? Which can be threatening or it could also be really great like, you know, food or something that you should grab.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett12:44

       Mm-hmm.

   17. TSDr. Tali Sharot12:44

       Um, and that's, that's basically why we stop responding. Of course, if someone, something is hurting you, right? You will continue responding to that, which is why it's, it's, it's a little bit difficult to habituate to pain.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett12:57

       Pain?

   19. TSDr. Tali Sharot12:57

       That's one... To pain, yeah. Mm-hmm.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett13:00

       What are some of your, um, your favorite examples of everyday habituation?

   21. TSDr. Tali Sharot13:05

       Of everyday habituation?

   22. SBSteven Bartlett13:07

       Yeah. Like things that... Yeah. Yeah. I told you mine before we started recording, which was, um, if I go to the gym and then I come home, I can no longer smell myself because you can, I can smell myself for maybe a couple of minutes when I'm working out that I'm like getting hot and sweaty. But then once I'm around myself for like 10 minutes, I guess my brain is just no longer sending the signal from my armpits to my (laughs) through my n- nasal receptors to my brain.

   23. TSDr. Tali Sharot13:31

       Yeah. So smell is, is really a good one 'cause that happens really, really fast, right? So i- if you put a perfume in yourself, it really smells strongly, but then you put the same perfume a day later, you don't smell it as much, a week later you don't smell it that much. So those are really easy to see around us. But I think to me the more interesting ones are habituating to things that we, um, enjoy a lot and then we enjoy less and less and less, and things that are really bad but we stop noticing. So for example, there's a great study in which, uh, people were asked to think about a song that they like. Tell me a song that you like or even an artist that you like.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett14:09

       Oh, gosh. There's one I'm listening to at the moment, House Gospel Choir, Angels Watching Over Me.

   25. TSDr. Tali Sharot14:15

       Okay. Would you prefer to hear that song from beginning to end, no interruptions, or would you prefer to hear it with breaks?

   26. SBSteven Bartlett14:23

       With breaks?

   27. TSDr. Tali Sharot14:24

       Yeah.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett14:24

       I don't wanna hear it with breaks.

   29. TSDr. Tali Sharot14:26

       Okay. You wanna hear it...

   30. SBSteven Bartlett14:27

       The full, the full thing.
7. 19:09 – 24:02

   The Problem of Habituation with Our Partners and Sex Life

   1. TSDr. Tali Sharot19:09

      the resort or wherever you're going.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett19:11

      I mean, this begs the question about the other thing we habituate to, which a lot of us don't wanna admit, which is our partners-

   3. TSDr. Tali Sharot19:18

      Mm-hmm.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett19:18

      ... and our sex lives. Two things I've talked a lot on this podcast about, um, as it relates to things that we kinda get used to and then no longer can get the same level of, I don't know, pl- pleasure, happiness, appreciation, gratitude from. Um, does it apply to relationships and sex?

   5. TSDr. Tali Sharot19:36

      Yeah. So I think it does, and I think the solution is very similar, breaks. And I don't mean like a relationship break.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett19:43

      Right.

   7. TSDr. Tali Sharot19:43

      What I mean is have, you know, an evening for yourself. Go on a weekend perhaps on your own. And then when you come back, everything kind of re-sparkles.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett19:54

      Is there any data-

   9. TSDr. Tali Sharot19:55

      Right.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett19:55

       ... to prove this? 'Cause it's a feeling, uh, something that we all know intuitively. Like, me and my partner both know that when we're spending time apart, it's good for our relationship. Every relationship needs that. It's good for our sex life. It's good for our- our appreciation of each other. But is there any data that supports this?

   11. TSDr. Tali Sharot20:10

       Yes. And I- um, I'll tell you what the data is, which is so obvious you think as like, "Why do people even do a study about this?" But there's one study, and it simply shows that when people are away from their partner, their desire, their sexual desire for the partner goes up.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett20:25

       What is it about our partner going away that makes us want them more?

   13. TSDr. Tali Sharot20:29

       It's related to habituation, right? But it's also related to where your attention is. When something is always in front of you, you sort of stop attending to it, because it's always there. And so your brain then goes, "Okay, what else do I need to get?" Right? But if they're not there, then your attention can go back to them. And then there is a more basic level of how pleasure works. There's this great quote by the economist Tibor Scitovsky, and he says that pleasure results from incomplete and intermittent satisfaction of desires. Right?

   14. SBSteven Bartlett21:07

       Incomplete?

   15. TSDr. Tali Sharot21:08

       Yes. So, the idea is that you're always wanting a little bit more.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett21:12

       Okay.

   17. TSDr. Tali Sharot21:13

       Right? Intermittent, mean- meaning there's breaks, and then you always... And it's an incomplete 'cause you always want-

   18. SBSteven Bartlett21:18

       Okay.

   19. TSDr. Tali Sharot21:18

       ... a little bit more. And I think that quote is... You can apply it to almost everything, right? Even to food. There's another, um, fun experiment where they have two groups, and one group was given mac and cheese to eat, which they really liked, every day for, you know, a few weeks. And of course they liked the mac and cheese on the first day, they liked it on the second day, but after a while, they couldn't, you know, they couldn't see mac and cheese anymore. They really did not want mac and cheese. Um, while the other group got mac and cheese just once a week, and they enjoyed the macs and cheese much more, right?

   20. SBSteven Bartlett21:52

       Mm-hmm.

   21. TSDr. Tali Sharot21:52

       And so it's true for food, it's true for music, it's true for our relationships, it's true for vacations.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett22:00

       What's that type... What's that restaurant where they, the chef brings you, I don't know, like 13 different courses of food?

   23. TSDr. Tali Sharot22:07

       Oh, that's too much. So that's not good. Okay.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett22:09

       Okay. (laughs)

   25. TSDr. Tali Sharot22:10

       So here's- here's what I think about choices. Um, you... First of all, you don't wanna give people no choice at all, right? So if there's a restaurant where you get no choice at all, I don't think that is overall a good idea. I mean, what you could do, for example, if you want- if you want to have a restaurant where there's an option that the chef decides-

   26. SBSteven Bartlett22:30

       Mm-hmm.

   27. TSDr. Tali Sharot22:30

       ... still make it a choice, right?

   28. SBSteven Bartlett22:32

       Uh-oh.

   29. TSDr. Tali Sharot22:32

       So you can have on the menu chef's choice, but I'm still, you know, sitting there and deciding, okay, the chef is gonna choose for me, but that's still my choice.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett22:41

       Why does that matter?
8. 24:02 – 29:16

   How to Keep Your Relationship Exciting

   1. TSDr. Tali Sharot24:02

      in- in the middle.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett24:04

      Going back to this- this s- subject matter of relationships, what advice would you give me based on everything you know about habituation to make sure that my relationship stays spicy and, uh, we go the long term?What things can I... You know, what do I need to be aware of? What, what things can I do?

   3. TSDr. Tali Sharot24:20

      Okay. So just thinking about, like, habituation-related things-

   4. SBSteven Bartlett24:24

      Yeah.

   5. TSDr. Tali Sharot24:24

      ... uh, I would say two main things. One is, breaks, meaning having some distance once in a while, right?

   6. SBSteven Bartlett24:33

      Okay.

   7. TSDr. Tali Sharot24:33

      And the second is, doing new things together.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett24:37

      Okay.

   9. TSDr. Tali Sharot24:38

      Right? 'Cause if you're always doing the same thing over and over and over, which couples sometimes do. There are, like, a few things that they like to do.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett24:45

       Mm-hmm.

   11. TSDr. Tali Sharot24:45

       Right? Because it's hard, because each person has their own preferences of what they like, and then you find an overlap, and that overlap is not necessarily huge. So then, you just, you know, do the same thing over and over. So, I think, as a couple, it is good to explore, and I don't, don't necessarily mean, like, sexually, but just everything, like what type of movies you're gonna watch and, you know, what type of activities. And that can also expand your experiences-

   12. SBSteven Bartlett25:12

       I think-

   13. TSDr. Tali Sharot25:12

       ... together, right?

   14. SBSteven Bartlett25:13

       ... I-

   15. TSDr. Tali Sharot25:13

       ... as a couple.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett25:13

       ... on the point of sex though, I do think sex can get boring if you don't constantly try new things. It's just (laughs) it's, if you plan to be with someone for 50 years, finding new things to try is work, (laughs) to be honest. And I guess life is work, so it's work worth doing. You know, I'm almost, almost, I don't know, five, almost five years into my relationship with a little bit of a, a gap in between, and it's a conversation we've had a lot, which is, how do we keep things fresh and new and interesting and spicy? Because, like any couple or like any people, you fall into, as you say, like, comfort habits. "We go to this restaurant 'cause we know it and they know us." You know, you go to this place because you know the place and you, that's your favorite restaurant there or whatever. You watch this thing on TV. You follow this, okay, this cycle of Monday to Fr- Monday to Sunday. Monday, we do this. Then Saturday and Sunday, we do this. You know, and it can be, it can, the monotony can seem to take a joy out of life, right?

   17. TSDr. Tali Sharot26:11

       Yes, and I think you want a little bit of balance. So some of this kind of routine and things you're familiar with, there's something nice about that as well.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett26:20

       Mm-hmm.

   19. TSDr. Tali Sharot26:20

       Right? So it's not, I'm not saying, "Every weekend, do something completely new." Right? But just, so you have your kind of routines and then, you know, you insert some novel activities or something, something new. So it's, it's kind of a ba- a balance between exploring new things but also exploiting the things that you enjoy.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett26:40

       Do you think there's a... 'Cause I was thinking about it as you were speaking about men and women, if there's a difference in their ability to habituate, and f- in my experience, maybe that's just because I've always been the man in the situation, um, I'm less likely to seek spontaneity, I think, in terms of, like, coming up with new ideas for places us to go. My girlfriend, she's so like, "Let's go to this flower thing. Let's go to this. Then let's go to this place. Let's go over here." She's very explorative. So I was just wondering if there was a variance you'd ever seen in any research about a man's ability to habituate versus a woman's.

   21. TSDr. Tali Sharot27:17

       No, I haven't. So I don't necessarily think there is, and I don't necessarily think that it is a case that men are more ex- explorer, explorative or more, um, exploring. But, and this is not based on data, this is just my observation, I often hear that people say, "I like to explore, but my partner-

   22. SBSteven Bartlett27:38

       Yeah.

   23. TSDr. Tali Sharot27:39

       ... likes to do the same," or, "I like to just do the same all the time, but my partner likes to explore." I hear this again and again. It's true in my own relationship. My, my co-author, uh, Cass Sunstein, who wrote the book with me, um, he also says exactly the same, right? So for him, he likes to exploit and his wife likes to explore. For me, it's like, "I like to explore and my husband likes to exploit," and I hear this again and again. And that makes me think that it is not a coincidence.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett28:03

       Mm-hmm.

   25. TSDr. Tali Sharot28:04

       Um, that is perhaps the case that people who like to explore end up with people who like to exploit, because to do the best that we can in life, we need to do both.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett28:16

       Mm-hmm.

   27. TSDr. Tali Sharot28:16

       So maybe it is, you know, this balance-

   28. SBSteven Bartlett28:19

       Interesting.

   29. TSDr. Tali Sharot28:19

       ... to individuals, 'cause if you're left on your own and just exploring all the time, you might not get to the optimal balance in life.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett28:27

       Mm-hmm.
9. 29:16 – 34:46

   Midlife Crisis: Is It a Real Thing?

   1. TSDr. Tali Sharot29:16

      the best that we can, we can get.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett29:18

      We talked about learning a little bit earlier on, and about the importance of, of change and novelty. I'm someone that's just fallen back into the habit of reading books again and writing about them, and it's brought a huge amount of lost joy to my life. And I, and I'd almost lost sight of it. Through becoming so busy in my professional life, I'd lost the-

   3. TSDr. Tali Sharot29:37

      Mm-hmm.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett29:38

      ... um, joy of learning new things, and because I do this podcast as well and it seems to, I learn so much from speaking to the people I speak to, but just recently, getting back into reading books again has brought this new sort of excitement to my life. And your book is, uh, is, provides a lot of evidence as to why that might be.

   5. TSDr. Tali Sharot29:54

      Yeah. I think it is, it is a case that probably, you know, in recent years, people are reading less-

   6. SBSteven Bartlett30:00

      Mm-hmm.

   7. TSDr. Tali Sharot30:00

      ... right? Um, and we kind of forget the joy of reading, whether it is fiction or non-fiction. I think the difference between reading a book than watching a video is, when you read a book, there's an extra mental activity that you're doing, which is, you're imagining-... you're visualizing, right?

   8. SBSteven Bartlett30:20

      Mm-hmm.

   9. TSDr. Tali Sharot30:20

      It's also in your own pace. So you read something, and maybe that elicits, triggers some kind of association in your mind, right? So you might, like, stop for a little bit and then continue. So there's so much more going on. And I think because of that, when you read a book, you can relate that more to yourself and to your own life, right, versus... I mean, watching, I mean, films like that, that's great as well. But that, that is the difference, right? It's more about you and your inner experiences and memories coming more alive, and then it also ties to what you already know.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett30:56

       The midlife crisis, is this a real thing?

   11. TSDr. Tali Sharot31:00

       Yeah, absolutely. It is well-known that stress is the peaks in your midlife and happiness, um, goes down in your midlife. Suicide, for example, peaks especially for a male, um, in midlife. Definitely, like, something that we should think of and notice, um, and we don't really know for sure why it happens. But one thing that happens in midlife is that you have a lot of stressors coming your way, um, so we're talking about 40s and 50s. So you have, you might need t- you have little kids that you need to take care of, and maybe you have elderly parents that you're worried about. Uh, professional life has a lot of stressors in midlife. So that's really a time where we see the midlife crisis. But one thing that we think is that perhaps this is also a time that you're not progressing as much, right? So kind of in your 20s and so on, you learn a lot, you gain skills, you get to perhaps a good position, and then it's sort of plateauing, right? For a lot of people, it can kind of plateau in midlife. Perhaps they have a good job, right? But they're kind of stuck. They're not really moving as much. They're not learning as much. Less variety, right? Things are a little bit more routine, and that could be one reason why happiness is relatively low in midlife. It's also hard to see, like, what is next sometimes, right? While you're climbing up it's, you're kind of, "Well, this is my goal," but once you get there, it's a little bit disappointing to some extent, even if you've done really well, right? 'Cause as we talked b- before, one thing that is really important for our happiness is kind of us believing that we have something to gain, something to go forward to. Now, why does then happiness go back up after midlife, right? So we don't know, but here's one speculation, that at, at a certain point in time, uh, maybe you're retiring, then actually life changes again, right? In an odd way, there can actually be more variety and change in learning. You need to learn how to live life again-

   12. SBSteven Bartlett33:12

       Mm-hmm.

   13. TSDr. Tali Sharot33:13

       ... with this new context of not going to work every day and, you know. And you might make decisions, all sorts of decisions of what to do with your time which will require you to learn again.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett33:26

       When you get to s- say, 40, 40, 50 years old, you're probably in a relationship.

   15. TSDr. Tali Sharot33:32

       Which you've been in for a while.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett33:34

       For a while.

   17. TSDr. Tali Sharot33:34

       Yeah.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett33:34

       There's not that, there's not that pursuit.

   19. TSDr. Tali Sharot33:35

       Mm-hmm.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett33:35

       Your job, your career, your profession, your identity, your geography, your house-

   21. TSDr. Tali Sharot33:40

       Right.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett33:40

       ... friendship, circles are probably all well-established at that point. And your hypothesis is that the lack of forward motion and the abundance of routine means that you lose something in life.

   23. TSDr. Tali Sharot33:55

       Yeah. So things are less new, right?

   24. SBSteven Bartlett33:57

       New, okay.

   25. TSDr. Tali Sharot33:58

       It's kind of same, same, same. Imagine the best day of your life. You wake up in the morning and you eat, like, the best breakfast that you can think of, right? and then you, you interact with the people that you love the most, and you go do the best activity, like, what you want, and then you see your favorite movie. So the whole day is your favorite, favorite, favorite, favorite things. Really great. And then you wake up the same the next day, and you do the same, and then you wake up the s- next day and you do the same, right? A week in, a few weeks in, the best day of your life just doesn't elicit as much joy, right? And also, there's nothing to learn anymore. So even if you're living your absolute best life, if it is the same again and again and again and again, it will eventually be a little

10. 34:46 – 36:53

    What Is Our Best Life & How to Find Happiness

    1. TSDr. Tali Sharot34:46

       bit even depressing, I would say.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett34:48

       So, so that's, by definition, not our best life.

    3. TSDr. Tali Sharot34:52

       Right. So, so then it is, what is our best life? So I think when people think about what my best life is, what they're thinking about is, "Oh, I want that great house," right? "I want that great partner. I want money," or, you know. And then you can get all of these things, but if they remain constant, that's just not gonna be your best life. And you can engineer this. I mean, even if it's, like, midlife and everything is set and you're in one house and so on, for example, you can go take a course, learn something new, right, a new field that is not your own. You can go a new sport, right? There's things that you could do. Go visit places that you haven't been. Try to, um, make connections with people that are a bit different from your regular crowd that you're interacting with. It's a little bit hard to do 'cause it, it's gonna require effort. The easiest thing to do is just continue, same, same, same, same, same, right?

    4. SBSteven Bartlett35:46

       We assume that happiness will be derived from us, um... I almost don't know how to say this. Like, from us being on autopilot. Like, if we do what society said, you work a job, you get a partner, you create a house, you... We assume that will lead to happiness. But what you're saying is the research shows that we actually need to keep almost dismantling or disrupting our own experience to f- to find happiness, or to be happy. I guess we can't find happiness, we be happy.

    5. TSDr. Tali Sharot36:16

       Yeah. They did a whole bunch of surveys to figure out what are the factors that are most associated with people's happiness, and the number one was meaning.... right? People who could say, "I have meaning in my life," that was number one. Number tw- two was control, people who felt they have control over their life. Um, and I don't remember what number income was, but it wasn't especially high. Oh, I think social, so social connections was really high as well. Right? So a lot of these things were these psychological things, not necessarily material things, that really induced, uh, people's happiness and satisfaction from their life.

11. 36:53 – 42:40

    The Surprising Link Between Habituation and Mental Health

    1. TSDr. Tali Sharot36:54

    2. SBSteven Bartlett36:54

       Somewhat linked to that, studies show that after getting married, people report to being ha- happier on average, yet about two years after their honeymoon period, happiness levels tend to be the same as their pre-marriage levels.

    3. TSDr. Tali Sharot37:05

       Yeah, so this is a well-known what's called the hedonic treadmill.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett37:09

       Oh, yeah.

    5. TSDr. Tali Sharot37:10

       So the hedonic treadmill means that we sort of have a baseline level of happiness, which is determined... A lot is genetic. It might be determined by early childhood experiences. And we can move from that baseline. We can go up if something good happens, maybe you have a good relationship, marriage, uh, you get a promotion. It can go down if something bad happens, even bereavement. But it turns out that in, in most cases you climb back to your baseline level of happiness. So these things, they can go up and they can down, and then you kind of adapt, right? Um, and a- and you end up trying, you know... And th- this goes back to this idea that we're trying to get all these things. We think of, "Once I get this promotion, then I will be really happy." And then you get the promotion, and it's great, but then after a while, you just go back to your baseline. Now, on, on one hand, this actually is not a bad thing, because imagine you get your first entry-level job, and people are really happy with their first entry-level job. Great. But imagine I just continue being really happy with my first entry-level job, right? I won't be motivated to move forward, right?

    6. SBSteven Bartlett38:21

       Mm-hmm.

    7. TSDr. Tali Sharot38:22

       So this is why habituation is there, 'cause it's moving us forward as an individual and an- and as a society. On the other hand, it also reduces our joy. Um, and it also sometimes causes us not to see some of the bad things around us 'cause we habituate to that as well. Another reason why habituation is important is for your mental health, right? And that's kind of related to what we just talked about, where bad things happen, and slowly, slowly, slowly we adapt and we go back to baseline. We are able to recover, right? It's kind of our superpower, our im- immense ability to just bounce back for most individuals. And what's interesting is that you actually see that people with depression, they habituate much slower. So there was a great study that was conducted in the University of Florida by a professor, Aaron Heller, where he had students, um, who just got exam results, and he asked them how they were feeling. And then he asked them how they were feeling after f- every 45 minutes for the whole day. And what he found is when people got bad results, they were feeling bad, right? They're not happy. And that's true for people who never had depression episodes in their life and people who were experiencing depression or had depression before, so everyone was feeling bad at the beginning. Those people who did not have any history of depression, they slowly, slowly, slowly started feeling better from this bad grade. Those with depression also started feeling better, but much slower, right? So in other words, depression is related to slower habituation, slower recovery from negative events in your life. And one reason we think this is, is because depression is related to going over these bad events in your mind again and again, not letting go, right?

    8. SBSteven Bartlett40:13

       Mm-hmm.

    9. TSDr. Tali Sharot40:13

       You're kind of like chewing over them again and again and again, and that is something that is preventing you from recovering and bouncing back from these, um, aversive events.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett40:27

        If, um, habituation is... causes us to lose the joy of our current situation, then how come, as you say in chapter two, the chapter about variety, you say that up to 40% of employees resign within the first six months of their new job? You'd think their new job would bring them joy because it was different. But up to 40% of employees resign within the first six months.

    11. TSDr. Tali Sharot40:53

        So new things can bring us joy because they're different.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett40:57

        Yeah.

    13. TSDr. Tali Sharot40:57

        However, at the same time... And this kind of goes back to the vacation example that I gave you, which was people are not the happiest when they just get to the resort. It takes them time, right? It takes them 43 hours to get to the peak joy. Why?

    14. SBSteven Bartlett41:09

        Mm-hmm.

    15. TSDr. Tali Sharot41:09

        'Cause they still need the time to adapt, right? They need to unpack. They need to get used to this new routine. Same thing with a new job, for example. So on one hand, getting a new job, you're gonna learn things, and that's great, and eventually it will get you joy. But when you fir- when you're there for the first day or the first few days, there's a lot of getting used to things around you, right? You need to, like, figure who's who, right? Who's-

    16. SBSteven Bartlett41:34

        Mm-hmm.

    17. TSDr. Tali Sharot41:35

        ... on top? Who's in the bottom? Like, where is the cafeteria? What am I gonna eat? There's so many different things that you need to figure out. It can be stressful. It can be overwhelming. And you often wanna just, like, run back to your old life-

    18. SBSteven Bartlett41:49

        Mm-hmm.

    19. TSDr. Tali Sharot41:49

        ... run back to your new job, and do a U-turn. And the problem is that often people don't predict this. They can't see ahead, right? They think it's like, "Well, I'm unhappy with my new job on my first day or my second day or even the first week. That means that this is not a good job for me." You know, perhaps it's not a good job for you, or perhaps you just need to allow it some time to adapt. So, you know, my recommendation is whatever it is that you're trying that's new, it can also be something like a new relationship, right? Give it some time, 'cause you're gonna have to get used to the things that are also not great. You will also get things- you get used to things that are great, but you have to get used to those things that are not great, and then after a while, you won't see them anymore.... right? So not gonna affect you as much. So give it time. Now, if you gave it time and still you're unhappy, sure. Yeah.

12. 42:40 – 48:29

    The Science of How to Keep Teams Motivated & Creative

    1. TSDr. Tali Sharot42:40

       Make a change.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett42:41

       There's a clear message in here for managers, employees, CEOs, founders about how to keep their team motivated and engaged. And the message that I'm hearing is the importance in creating variety in their work. Because I always think in businesses I'm involved in, if someone's doing the same thing for like 12 months, we're gonna have a- have to have a conversation within the next three months, because they will typically come to me and say like, "Something's not, something's not right." And it's typically that people need a bit of variety in their work, I guess, because that gives it a little kick of meaning again. You know, I, I think... I've always hypothesized that people need like five things to really like their jobs. Number one is a sense of forward motion towards a goal.

    3. TSDr. Tali Sharot43:23

       Mm-hmm-

    4. SBSteven Bartlett43:23

       So that's progress, I guess. Feeling like you're going to make, making forward motion. Number two, challenge. They need to be like sufficiently challenged. Not too challenged, 'cause then there's lots of issues. Under challenged, lots of issues, lose motivation, like in game psychology. Number three is control and autonomy, so feeling like you've got control over your life, your work. Number four is meaning in the work you're doing. Subjective meaning. Jack's reason for doing this podcast will be entirely different from someone else in the team, for example. And then the last one is working in like a supportive group of people.

    5. TSDr. Tali Sharot43:53

       There's a lot of studies about this, that you want a situation where you're learning something. 'Cause if you're learning nothing, people are not engaged, right? But if it's like so difficult that you can't learn, right?

    6. SBSteven Bartlett44:06

       Mm-hmm.

    7. TSDr. Tali Sharot44:07

       People aren't happy as well. So you have to be like in the s- the spot in the middle, right? That's a sweet spot. And again, it's different for everyone, right? Where it's not too easy, but it's not too difficult, so you have something to learn, but you're still progressing, and that's very important. There's a great study showing that if you put people in a room and there's absolutely nothing for them to do except to shock themselves, they will shock themselves. (laughs) Like little shock, I don't mean, you know... Um, this, this paper was actually in Science a few years ago. So meaning that boredom can be so aversive to people, they would actually prefer physical pain than to just not do anything at all. So that's on the one hand. And then, of course, on the other hand is when you're sitting in, in a, you know, in a class or you're listening to your lecturer and you have no idea what's... It's too much, right?

    8. SBSteven Bartlett44:55

       Mm-hmm.

    9. TSDr. Tali Sharot44:55

       Because you haven't gotten there. Maybe you'll take the steps, eventually you'll get there. But-

    10. SBSteven Bartlett44:59

        Mm-hmm.

    11. TSDr. Tali Sharot45:00

        But, you know, you started off by saying, for employees, you need to kind of change, right? Give them different projects and so on. And what's interesting, not only will they enjoy it more, they're more likely to get to creative solutions. Start with the fact that what, what has been found is that people who habituate slower are more creative. Um, so there's different ways to measure how fast you habituate. What they did in this study is that they had a sound, the same sound again and again and again, and they measured skin conductance, which shows-

    12. SBSteven Bartlett45:34

        Which sounds-

    13. TSDr. Tali Sharot45:34

        Um, so it is how aroused you are. When you're aroused, you sweat more.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett45:38

        Okay.

    15. TSDr. Tali Sharot45:38

        And that is measured by the skin conductance, right? And so when there's like a sound, there's a response. So if the sound is the same sound again and again and again, most people habituate, there's no longer a response, you know, long skin conductance. But for some people, they continue responding, right? 'Cause they're not habituating. And what was found is those, those people who continue responding, those were the people who already showed creativity in their life. They had a patent under their name. They had an exhibition in an art gallery. They had a book that they wrote. They had, um, got prizes for innovative work. And the question is, why is that? And I think the reason is that because of habituation, we filter a lot of information, right? And, you know, it makes sense, information is not important. But if you don't habituate, you're gonna have a lot of bits of information in your mind simmering. Objects, sounds, bits and pieces of knowledge that are not important on their own, but they're just gonna stay in your mind, they're gonna simmer, and once in a while, they will create something new.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett46:43

        Mm-hmm.

    17. TSDr. Tali Sharot46:43

        And that's where innovation comes in. And really, if you think about the most creative solutions that people come up with, it's usually they take something from one field, something really boring, unimportant, mundane, and that bit of mundane piece of information then solves a problem in this other completely different field. And/or there's like this part of knowledge here that is boring and this other part of knowledge in this other field that also seems very mundane, but you put them together and suddenly you create something that is really, really interesting, uh, and creative, right? I mean, often you see, for example, people taking what they know from biology, which, you know, on its own doesn't seem so important, but then they take that and they use it to solve a problem in a different field. Technology, for example. Right? That is like the most creative solutions. So how do we facilitate that? How do we facilitate dishabituation in order to enhance creativity? And the answer is change, changing your environment. And it could be simple things. There are studies showing that if you just change your environment, let's say you're working in the office for a few hours and you go work for, in a coffee shop for a few hours, right? That change can actually also enhance creativity. Um, you're sitting and working and then you're going out and walking or going out for a run. Uh, studies show for the first six minutes, you're gonna be more creative and also vice versa. So if you are out walking, out running, and then you come back and you sit in your office, for the next six minutes, you're gonna be more creative. Now six minutes may sound like that's not a lot of time, but sometimes there's just enough for you to get the

13. 48:29 – 49:53

    The Power of Taking Breaks and Small Changes

    1. TSDr. Tali Sharot48:29

       a-ha moment. I can remember those instances where I came up with an idea that would then change my course of research for a long time. Those ideas that were really important. So if I think about these examples, like one example was I was in the office trying to solve this problem and I couldn't find a solution. So I decided to go to the gym.And then, so I walked to the gym. And then before... while I was walking, while I was getting to the gym, that's when, you know, the solution came about.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett48:54

       Mm-hmm.

    3. TSDr. Tali Sharot48:54

       And I remember, like, calling my student and, like, sharing that. And that would then change years of what we, we were gonna do, right? So just, all I did was changed my physical activity, changed just my physical surrounding, and that's exactly what these studies show. Um, or another example was, again, I was in my office, and I took a break. And I was reading the New York Times science section. So not hugely different, but still different, right? And then I read something about monkeys, and I do humans. And that, again, that was, ooh, that i- an idea came about, by taking a break and doing something that was a little bit different. And I think every single example of this, it's always like that.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett49:35

       Mm-hmm.

    5. TSDr. Tali Sharot49:36

       It's never me trying to think of something new, me trying to find a solution. It's always doing something else, which then... Something unusual, not something that I do, like, 90% of the time in a day, and that, doing those times is when these kind of new

14. 49:53 – 55:36

    Here's How the Brain Tricks You to Believe Things That Aren't True

    1. TSDr. Tali Sharot49:53

       ideas came about.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett49:55

       You know the brain generally. Having spent so much time studying it, what are the, th- the fundamental surprises you've come to learn about humans that you think most people just don't understand or agree with? Like, the things that we don't wanna believe about ourselves that are unfortunately true.

    3. TSDr. Tali Sharot50:11

       Things that are unfortunately true.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett50:13

       I see this-

    5. TSDr. Tali Sharot50:14

       Right.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett50:14

       I read this throughout your work, things where you go, "Humans wouldn't say they're like that if you asked them, but clearly they are because of the research."

    7. TSDr. Tali Sharot50:22

       Right. Yeah, I mean, it is true that we're not conscious of most of these kind of systematic mistakes that we make and the biases that we have. For example, I mean, maybe our belief system is a great example of why we believe what we believe. I think that if you'd ask people, "Why do you believe a certain thing?" they would probably give you some kind of rational explanation, right? "I believe this thing because, you know, here's all the evidence," and so forth. But in fact, most of the times, the reason we believe something is that we were brought up in an environment where that belief was a popular one, or people around us believe it, or we've heard it again and again. You know, one interesting thing is, this has a huge effect, but people are, are not aware of it. As long as you hear something, um, repeatedly, even twice, the likelihood that you believe it goes way up versus something that you hear once. It's called the illusory truth effect. You just... There's so many studies showing this. You let people, you sh- you tell people something twice, they don't remember that they've heard it twice, and they're gonna believe it way more than something that they just heard once. Um, the reason for this is that the brain process information that it's heard before less, right? Okay, so let's say I tell you that, um, a shrimp's heart is in its head, right? So when you hear that, that sounds really surprising, and your brain takes a lot of resources to process this. You might think about the last time I ate a shrimp, um, right? Or just imagine the shrimp's heart is in his head. But the second time I'm gonna tell you this, a shrimp's heart is in his head, your brain's not gonna process this th- at much, right? And the third time, it's not gonna process it at all. Now, when your brain takes less effort in processing things, that causes, um, a signal of familiarity, and as a result, we're more likely to believe something. When something requires less effort and less energy to process, we believe it more.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett52:27

       Interesting.

    9. TSDr. Tali Sharot52:28

       So anything that you hear again and again and again, as you hear it more and more and more, it takes less energy to process. And if it takes less energy to process, our brain then concludes that it is likely true, and for good reason, 'cause most of the time when you hear something again and again and again, most of the time, it's true. So if you heard something from, you know, your aunt, and then you heard it from your friend, and then you heard it from your doctor, why do all the people tell you all these things? Because on average, it's true. But sometimes, it's not gonna be true, right? It's gonna be false beliefs, right? And even, even things like, it takes you less energy to process a large font, 14 font bold-

    10. SBSteven Bartlett53:05

        Yeah.

    11. TSDr. Tali Sharot53:05

        ... it takes us less energy to process it, versus, like, small font. Um-

    12. SBSteven Bartlett53:09

        Yeah, we see that across the board in all of our marketing companies, is that if we just make the font a little bit bigger, we get more clicks.

    13. TSDr. Tali Sharot53:15

        So it turns out-

    14. SBSteven Bartlett53:15

        Just a tiny bit bigger.

    15. TSDr. Tali Sharot53:16

        Yeah, not only are people more attentive, they're gonna believe it more.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett53:19

        Interesting.

    17. TSDr. Tali Sharot53:19

        So there are studies showing that you show people two sentences. Um, one is in big fonts, bold, and one is in small. And you ask them, you know, "How likely is this to be true? How likely is that to be true?" Those sentences that are in big, bold fonts, people are more likely to believe they're true, because their brain requires less energy to process it, which then makes us conclude that it's likely to be true. And it's true for, like, for example, if you do it with, like, red color, right?

    18. SBSteven Bartlett53:46

        Mm-hmm.

    19. TSDr. Tali Sharot53:46

        Anything that makes it easier for us, for us to process. If we hear things more clearly, we're more likely to believe that's true than if you put a little bit of noise.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett53:54

        Mm-hmm.

    21. TSDr. Tali Sharot53:54

        Um, people are less likely to believe things are true anytime that it's hard for us to process. So what that means is, if you want people to, um... if you wanna help them believe what you're saying, right, take on your recommendations, you wanna make it easier for them to process it. So you could do that visually, big fonts, re- and so on. But the other things you can do is you can relate it to things that they already believe in-

    22. SBSteven Bartlett54:17

        Mm-hmm.

    23. TSDr. Tali Sharot54:18

        ... what we call priors, right? So if I, I want to convince you of something, it might be a good idea for me to think about, what are you, what do you already believe, right? And then try to tie that to what you already believe, because that will require less processing. Or I could tell you something twice or three times. Now, of course, this doesn't... It's not like I'm gonna tell you something really, really crazy, right, the Earth is flat three times, and you're gonna believe me, right? But I'm talking about these things where, like, it could be true, right? And so I tell you that a few times, and then eventually, you, you... more likely to believe it, and you don't know it's because you've heard it a few times.

    24. SBSteven Bartlett54:51

        So if I said-... salad and sugar are good for you-

    25. TSDr. Tali Sharot54:57

        (laughs)

    26. SBSteven Bartlett54:58

        (laughs) ... versus just sugar is good for you. (laughs) Maybe more people are more likely to believe the first sentence-

    27. TSDr. Tali Sharot55:03

        Yes.

    28. SBSteven Bartlett55:03

        ... because I've included a statement that you know, from prior knowledge, is true, which is cabbage is good for you and salad is good for you.

    29. TSDr. Tali Sharot55:08

        Yeah, that- that is a great example. That is a great example.

    30. SBSteven Bartlett55:11

        Okay.
15. 55:36 – 59:57

    Checklist to Dehabituate Your Life

    1. SBSteven Bartlett55:36

       introduce novelty? I'm almost wanting to come away with a little bit of a- a little bit of a checklist for my own life here. I feel like I'm- I understand the part on relationships, which is take breaks from my partner, try new things with them you said as well, so go to new restaurants, go to new places, do new things on the weekend. In work, um, quit my job, I guess. That's what you're saying. (laughs)

    2. TSDr. Tali Sharot55:58

       No, absolutely not. No.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett56:00

       It's-

    4. TSDr. Tali Sharot56:00

       Do not quit your job. You know.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett56:02

       Change role, add new responsibilities.

    6. TSDr. Tali Sharot56:04

       But try... Yeah, no but you could, it could even be something as, I mean, you don't have to completely change what you're doing, but you could, at the same time, try something new. And in fact, you know, from- from, you know, I'm sure you do that, 'cause you have different things that you're doing, right? And so that means you have variety in your day 'cause you do your podcast, but then you also have your companies, and your companies are different, right? So this is a good example, but not everyone has that, right? A lot of people just have the one job. But if you can take on, you know, learn something new, right? Induce variety into your day in that way, that is great. That will cause you to start being on kind of a learning mode, right?

    7. SBSteven Bartlett56:46

       I take also from that, that as an employer, it's really important-

    8. TSDr. Tali Sharot56:48

       Mm-hmm.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett56:48

       ... that we have all of our team members on a personal development plan, which means making sure that they've got intellectual forward motion in their lives, they're always learning something new, they're always striving for something new, and that every team member in, like, my company should have something they're currently learning about outside of their core responsibilities.

    10. TSDr. Tali Sharot57:11

        Right, so sometimes it's- it would look like they're going sideways.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett57:14

        Yeah.

    12. TSDr. Tali Sharot57:15

        Right? So sometimes it doesn't look like their- the path is, like, just progressing forward. But sometimes perhaps the plan is to go a little bit sideways, right?

    13. SBSteven Bartlett57:25

        What do you mean by sideways?

    14. TSDr. Tali Sharot57:25

        Which means, like, it's not the obvious thing-

    15. SBSteven Bartlett57:28

        Yeah.

    16. TSDr. Tali Sharot57:29

        ... that they're gonna learn, right, for their role, right?

    17. SBSteven Bartlett57:31

        Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

    18. TSDr. Tali Sharot57:31

        You see? Something-

    19. SBSteven Bartlett57:32

        Jack's not gonna become a better editor or producer or whatever. He's gonna learn music.

    20. TSDr. Tali Sharot57:38

        Almost anything different that you learn is probably gonna feed back.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett57:43

        Yeah. Yeah.

    22. TSDr. Tali Sharot57:43

        Right?

    23. SBSteven Bartlett57:44

        I guess it's- it comes right down to even the route you cycle on the way to work in the morning-

    24. TSDr. Tali Sharot57:49

        Mm-hmm.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett57:49

        ... or small things, right? Small decisions you make, hotels you stay at, the airline you choose to use. Is- is there any other ways that you've dehabituated in your life, having learned about this?

    26. TSDr. Tali Sharot57:58

        Yes, but I- I wanna just say something about, you said use different airlines and so on. So, on one hand, yes, but on the other hand, if something is not super enjoyable but you still have to do it, so for example, maybe flying, maybe travel, like when you're traveling for business, it can be painful, right? So in those cases, in fact, you wanna do the same thing again and again. Why? Because you habituate to the negative, you see? So if you think about things that you don't like to do-

    27. SBSteven Bartlett58:31

        Mm-hmm.

    28. TSDr. Tali Sharot58:31

        ... um, you may actually wanna do it in the same way over and over.

    29. SBSteven Bartlett58:36

        Okay.

    30. TSDr. Tali Sharot58:36

        Right? 'Cause I mean, unless you think, like, you get on a plane and you super (laughs) enjoy it, but, like, you know, for me, I just, like, want it to be over with, right? So it's easier actually to use the same airline, to do the same thing. So in some parts of y- of life actually, you wanna choose to do the same thing. And in fact, in some parts of life, you want to, um, do these things that you don't enjoy in one chunk. You know how we talked about the good things you chop up?
16. 59:57 – 1:06:17

    The Problem of Social Media and High Expectations

    1. TSDr. Tali Sharot59:57

       that you've overdo- always done it.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett59:59

       Is social media go- going to make me vicariously habituate, i.e. through looking at other people's lives and the experiences they're having, it's moving my bar up, like my- my own perception of expectations in my life up in an unpleasant way, so that when I go to that same place that Jenny went to on Instagram, it's less enjoyable for me because I've already kind of experienced it through the lens of Jenny's Instagram stories?

    3. TSDr. Tali Sharot1:00:26

       Right. So this has a lot to do with what do you- what do we expect from life and how do those expectations impact us?

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:33

       Mm-hmm.

    5. TSDr. Tali Sharot1:00:33

       Um, so I think obviously, social media is causing us to have unrealistic expectations. We always, I don't know, for most of us, we feel kind of disappointed with ourselves. We go online, and it's because of course, a lot of people go online and they post the good things, right? "Oh, I'm on vacation. I got this award." And then you go online and you're like, "Oh, all the people," or all of this good things are happening constantly, and so you feel disappointed about your own life. You have unrealistic expectations. Um, and it- it shifts what we call adaptation levels. So basically, we adapt to, um, our daily life, and then things that are better-... than our daily life, we feel good. When things are worse, we feel worse. But sometimes our adaptation level can shift, not based on our reality, but what we expect maybe will happen, and also what we see other people are doing. So, let's talk about expecting what will happen. So, it's, there's a study showing that when prisoners are about to be released, they are still in prison, but in their mind, they're already like thinking about the release, which is great. And so now their expectations are kind of higher, and that makes them feel worse, right? So, they're actually very close to release, but in fact they're feeling really bad because their, their daily life is much worse from what they expect their daily life to be.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:01

       That's kind of like social media, isn't it? You're sat in your house looking out at people partying in some hot, sunny country, having the time of their lives. You feel like you're in prison. Your expectations are being raised because you're watching them have the time of their lives, so you suddenly your house feels like, you know, a prison.

    7. TSDr. Tali Sharot1:02:16

       Yeah. So, your expectations can be based on what you just expect-

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:20

       What you see.

    9. TSDr. Tali Sharot1:02:20

       ... for yourself and also what other people are doing. Now, I'm not saying that, um, high expectations are bad, right? 'Cause there's two things happening at the same time. One thing is, when, um, the outcomes ... So this is related to dopamine neurons. So basically, dopamine neurons in your, your brain are firing all the time, right? And then when outcomes are better than expected, they fire even more, burst more, right? So, you expect to get this amount of salary, you get a higher salary, dopamine goes up. You expect the steak to taste quite good, it tastes even better, they fire more. And when things are worse than expected, they start, um, quieting down, right?

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:03

        Mm-hmm.

    11. TSDr. Tali Sharot1:03:04

        So, they're quieting down when things are worse than expected. And that is highly correlated with your mood. When there's big bursts of dopamine, you feel good. When the dopamine is quiet, you're feeling bad.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:15

        Mm-hmm.

    13. TSDr. Tali Sharot1:03:16

        But that quiet is important, because that quiet says, "Things are not as good as I expected them to be," and it signals to your brain, "I need to learn something. I need to change this," right? There's two things you can change. You can change your expectations, you can lower them, or you can change the reality.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:34

        Mm-hmm.

    15. TSDr. Tali Sharot1:03:34

        Right? And so this negative mood that is associated with outcomes not being, um, as good as you expected them can actually lead to progress.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:44

        Mm-hmm.

    17. TSDr. Tali Sharot1:03:44

        So, it's a bit of a delicate-

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:46

        Mm-hmm.

    19. TSDr. Tali Sharot1:03:46

        ... kind of balance, right?

    20. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:48

        Mm-hmm.

    21. TSDr. Tali Sharot1:03:48

        And so often, I mean, there's this really counterintuitive finding which is when people don't have certain things in their life, for example, in countries where the healthcare system is quite bad, the healthcare system doesn't affect people's daily happiness as much as in countries where the healthcare system is good. So, when the healthcare system is good, you expect it to be good, so then any variation can impact your, your kind of satisfaction. But if you're living in a country where you're like, "Well, I know the healthcare system is bad. I'm ... It's not gonna even affect how I'm feeling," right, you have no expectations and you're kind of ... That's not gonna impact your happiness.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:29

        How much do you really know about your health? For me, that answer was simple. The answer was very little, until Whoop came along. As you guys know, they sponsor this podcast. But even before then, Whoop was integral for me to know what's going on inside my body. Most of my friends, my family, and my team now use Whoop, but I still have a few friends that are on the fence about getting on board. And what I hear from some of those friends is that they're a little bit worried about what they might see in the data and they might feel uncomfortable about knowing what's going on inside their body. If I've learned anything, it is that knowledge is power, and once I finally started to look at the data and understand how getting less sleep was affecting my body and how my old lifestyle was actually hurting my long-term health, everything changed for the better. So, if this is something that you'd like to try out, head over to join.whoop.com/ceo and you'll get to try Whoop for 30 days, risk free, with zero commitment. Try it, and let me know how you get on. Let's talk about Zoe, who you may know because they're a sponsor of this podcast and I'm an investor in the company. You guys know health is my number one priority. Zoe's growth story has been absolutely incredible so far. They're doing science at a scale that I've never seen before. Because of their members and recent breakthroughs in research, they can now continue to offer the most scientifically advanced gut health test on the market. Previously, the test allowed them to analyze 30 bacteria types in your gut, but now, thanks to new science, they've identified 100 bacteria types. This is a huge step forward and there's nothing else that's available even close to it on the market at all. So, to find out more and to get started on your Zoe journey, visit zoe.com/stephen. You can use my exclusive code, CEO10, for 10% off. Don't tell anybody about

17. 1:06:17 – 1:12:41

    How to Achieve Your Goals

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:17

       that, okay? Just for you guys. I remember you had a TED Talk, didn't you, which did, uh, 15 million views on how to motivate yourself to change your behavior.

    2. TSDr. Tali Sharot1:06:25

       Okay, yeah.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:26

       What can I take from that TED Talk to achieve my new year new me goals?

    4. TSDr. Tali Sharot1:06:33

       Okay. So, um, I talk about a few principles there, and one is, a lot of time our goals are in the future.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:42

       Mm-hmm.

    6. TSDr. Tali Sharot1:06:42

       So, I want to go to the gym because eventually I wanna lose weight. I'm not gonna lose weight that very second, right? I'm not gonna like get into my jeans that very day. Eventually, I know that if I go to the gym, I will become healthier, right? So, it's all, a lot of times about the future or you say, "I wanna get a promotion, so I'm gonna work really hard today, so I can get promotion in the future." The problem is that it's really hard to motivate yourself to do something immediate for a reward that's gonna come a long time from now.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:12

       Mm-hmm.

    8. TSDr. Tali Sharot1:07:13

       So, what you need to do is you need to figure out, what can I get now?I'm going to the gym because I wanna be healthier and, you know, thinner or whatever in the future. But is there anything that I can get at the very moment? Um, I've heard people tell me that the way that they motivate themselves to get to the gym is they say, "When I get to the gym and I get on the treadmill, I'm gonna allow myself to watch some trash TV, or, uh, read like, you know, a magazine that I don't always allow myself to read." So, that's one thing, right? Think about what the immediate rewards that you can give yourself or someone else, maybe you're helping someone else to, to achieve their goals, what can we get immediately not only in the future? For, for example, another person told me that their husband, um, they really wanted their husband to go to the gym, and so the husband went to the gym and they got back and the wife, um, said to the husband, "Ooh, I can feel your, like, I can see your muscles," right? So, it was immediate, right?

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:06

       Mm-hmm.

    10. TSDr. Tali Sharot1:08:06

        They gave him like immediate rewards. So, try to think about, I call it like, um, bridge the temporal gap because there's an action happening today, and there's this like goal in the future, but you have to bridge the temporal gap to try to think about, okay, what can I also get now? It can be an emotional response, right? I mean, a lot of times when we do something, like, we work hard, we solve a problem, we go to the gym, we feel good. It could be the emotional response. So, maybe one way you can do is make that salient, right? Maybe like track your, your emotions, track your mood, and you can say, "Okay, this is what I did today, right? To... I went to the gym today, this is how I was feeling."

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:44

        Mm-hmm.

    12. TSDr. Tali Sharot1:08:44

        Right? And so that's also an immediate reward.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:49

        I was thinking about this idea of discipline and what creates discipline, and I was hypothesizing if there were to be a discipline equation, what it might look like. And I kind of concluded that there's three parts to the things in our, areas in my life where I've been able to maintain discipline, and the equation looks something like this. The start of the equation would be the why, like however much I valued that goal.

    14. TSDr. Tali Sharot1:09:13

        Mm-hmm.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:13

        So, it could be going to the gym or whatever.

    16. TSDr. Tali Sharot1:09:14

        Mm-hmm.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:16

        Plus, the reward that I got from the pursuit of the goal, so the perceived reward I got from the pursuit of the goal. So, that's actually like going to the gym, doing the exercise, being on the treadmill, the feeling after, walking home, like the f- you know, and then minus the cost of the pursuit of the goal. So, that's like having to like leave the house, get in the Uber, put my shoes on, travel for 45 minutes, wait, you know, lo- use- lose two hours. And if you wanna be disciplined in any of your life, you need to therefore increase the why in whatever way you can, get really, really clear on why that matters, and in your case, create those pacts, like a social pact, a financial pact, whatever, to make it really important to you. Do e- whatever you can to make the reward of the pursuit of the goal more enjoyable. It might be going with a friend or something, going to a gym that's closer, or I don't know. And then do everything you can to reduce the cost of the pursuit of the goal. So-

    18. TSDr. Tali Sharot1:10:09

        Right. And, and the problem is that the costs are often immediate.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:12

        Yeah.

    20. TSDr. Tali Sharot1:10:12

        Right?

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:13

        Yeah, yeah.

    22. TSDr. Tali Sharot1:10:13

        And then we, we fall into what's called the present bias or sometimes it's called temporal discounting, which is that often we value what's happening in the moment more than the same thing if it was to happen in the future, right? Um, and that's true for both like bad things and good things, things that are just happening now, our brain is like, "Oh, I'm gonna decide what to do based on this immediate thing."

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:36

        Mm.

    24. TSDr. Tali Sharot1:10:36

        And the problem is that the costs are often immediate, right? To go-

    25. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:39

        Oh, 100%. They come first.

    26. TSDr. Tali Sharot1:10:39

        ... to go to the gym. Yeah.

    27. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:41

        Yeah.

    28. TSDr. Tali Sharot1:10:41

        They come first, right? So, you have to overcome those costs. And I think when, and as you're saying, one thing you could do is to try to get those rewards closer in time, right?

    29. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:49

        Mm-hmm.

    30. TSDr. Tali Sharot1:10:49

        So, if I go to, to the gym, I have to like walk to the gym, I, I might tell myself, "Okay, I can listen to a podcast while I'm walking," so that's enjoyable.
18. 1:12:41 – 1:16:02

    Why Incentives Work

    1. TSDr. Tali Sharot1:12:41

       immediate thing.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:43

       Just goes to show, I think fundamentally, that we're just driven by incentives.

    3. TSDr. Tali Sharot1:12:46

       Mm.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:47

       You know? We think it's something else, but really at the very fundamental level, everything just seems to be about incentives in business, in work, in relationships, in life.

    5. TSDr. Tali Sharot1:12:55

       Absolutely. I mean, every decision, every action, conscious or unconscious, is very much about incentives, right? The good and the bad. I think what's interesting to me is that those incentives are quite variable.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:08

       Mm-hmm.

    7. TSDr. Tali Sharot1:13:09

       They can be money, um, they can be food, they can be like social interactions, right?

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:15

       Or variety.

    9. TSDr. Tali Sharot1:13:16

       They can be variety. Yeah. So, the, what the incentives are is very variable. What, you know, what... the good that I'm getting, also the, the bad, right? What feels bad-... a lot of different things can feel bad.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:29

        So interesting.

    11. TSDr. Tali Sharot1:13:30

        So, if you go, if you go down to, like, creatures low in the evolutionary scale, I think for them things are more basic.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:36

        Mm-hmm.

    13. TSDr. Tali Sharot1:13:36

        Right? For them, it's just like food, temperature, right? Things like that that are really about survival. But as we go up and up and up the ladder and we get to humans, for us there's a lot of different things that can be incentivizing.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:52

        I was saying to one of my colleagues the other day, in a business that I'm, like, uh, an investor in, he was telling me about one of his team members who was, like, just a bit... Had lost the love of th- her work.

    15. TSDr. Tali Sharot1:14:03

        Mm-hmm.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:04

        And he told me the list of reasons she'd said in the, like, exit interview as to why she wasn't enjoying her work, and I looked at the list of things, and intuitively it felt like the person didn't actually know-

    17. TSDr. Tali Sharot1:14:18

        Mm-hmm.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:18

        ... why they weren't enjoying their work anymore. And so I had a conversation with this person who was leaving this company, and, um, we got to the very bottom of it, and at the very heart of it was just a, a loss of meaning in the job they were doing. They couldn't answer, um, why it mattered anymore. They thought the work they were doing no longer mattered. And when you'd ask them, they would have said a lot of other things, you know? They would point to small little things, and this and that in the office, and whatever else, and the music that's playing, and the... But at the very heart of it was actually just an absence of meaning. And people aren't, I don't think, very good at understanding that they've lost meaning, or that meaning is so important, or that what it is.

    19. TSDr. Tali Sharot1:14:53

        Yeah, and that goes back to the survey that I mentioned, um, where they found that the number one thing that was important for people's happiness was meaning. Right?

    20. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:00

        And what does meaning mean? (laughs)

    21. TSDr. Tali Sharot1:15:03

        (laughs) What does meaning mean? Um, I guess is that what you're doing is valuable, right?

    22. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:10

        To?

    23. TSDr. Tali Sharot1:15:10

        Um, yeah, to, so that's a good question. I think it's probably beyond yourself.

    24. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:15

        Mm-hmm.

    25. TSDr. Tali Sharot1:15:16

        I don't know. Maybe it is even something about immortality, right? Wanting to feel that what I'm doing is gonna change something beyond myself. Um, and it's, it's not necessarily about generosity, alco- although, you know, generosity and, could be part of it, but it's more about making a v- a difference, right? Steve Jobs had, had this, um, saying that he, he said something like, "A dent in the universe," right? Making a dent in the universe. I think a lot of people want to do that, and it, you know, it don't have to invent the Mac to do that. It could also be how you affect your family, how you raise your children, right? And that things, that, tho- those are the kind of things that can continue

19. 1:16:02 – 1:19:32

    Why Gen Z Wants to Change the World

    1. TSDr. Tali Sharot1:16:02

       to be even when you're not there.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:04

       I've noticed this trend. Gen Z and the younger millennials are the change-the-world generation. And what I mean by that, hear me out, is that I have so many young kids coming up to me, especially over the last sort of 10 years generally, that would say to me, "I want to change the world." And you'd ask them, like, "What do you mean?" They'd say, like, "I wanna change the world." Um, they can't tell you necessarily what they want to change about it, but they want to be the person that had that impact on the world, and I, I think that sits in contrast to what my father would have said as a 65-year-old man. If you'd asked him at 20 years old, "What do you wanna do in your job?" I don't think my dad would have said, "Change the world." I think he would have said, "I wanna be a structural engineer."

    3. TSDr. Tali Sharot1:16:48

       Mm-hmm.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:48

       You know what I mean? And I think that, going back to your point about, um, habituation and people's desire to, like, I don't know, for immortality, is it plausible that because of social media-

    5. TSDr. Tali Sharot1:17:01

       Mm-hmm.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:01

       ... because we've seen a lot of world changes, we've adjusted our own, I don't know, expectations of ou- ou- what our, our own contributions, to now that this young generation, if they're not changing the world, or if they're not having such a profound impact on things, they don't have... Their level of meaning has habituated to now the base minimum of impact they need to have is to change the world. Do you see what I mean? (laughs)

    7. TSDr. Tali Sharot1:17:24

       Yeah, okay.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:24

       They can't just get a job.

    9. TSDr. Tali Sharot1:17:26

       Right, and when I, when I said about a dent in the world, uh, I did not mean, as, as I said before, I don't mean, like, inventing the Mac. It could just be making a nice meal that people enjoy, right, or something. It could be, it could be things that are quite small, and, uh, you know, thinking about your father, he wants to be a- an engineer, but... He wanted to be an engineer, but why? Right? He said he, that's what he wanted to do, but why did he want that, right? So, he probably, I don't know, but maybe he wanted to be that because that would enable him to create new things.

Episode duration: 1:31:33