Overcoming Depression, Burnout, Anxiety and Insomnia with Dan Murray-Serter | E54

1. 0:00 – 0:52

   Intro

   1. SBSteven Bartlett0:00

      It's very rare that you get to meet entrepreneurs that are following and have followed in the steps that y- you've followed in, in your life. And, like, so whenever I meet people like you and Ben Francis, who is similar age to me, who has, like, similar life ambitions, um, I see it as, like, this really amazing, rare opportunity to learn for myself and to ask honestly, like, selfish questions. And w- I saw on your Twitter, I think it was over the Mental Health Week period, you did a tweet where you talked about your experiences with depression, burnout, and anxiety. And from what I know about your story, you experienced those things in that order.

   2. DMDan Murray-Serter0:39

      Yep.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett0:40

      So I think that's a good place to start, which is, let's talk about depression and the, the, the role that depression played in your life and where it came from and how you've overcome or are overcoming or handling depression.

2. 0:52 – 11:25

   Depression - where did it all start?

   1. SBSteven Bartlett0:52

   2. DMDan Murray-Serter0:52

      Yeah. So interesting actually, because, um, I, I realized when I started to talk about mental health stuff, even more interestingly than what you've just said, I kind of realized that I'd been burying another mental health problem. So actually the, the tweet was more depression, burnout, anxiety, um, and insomnia.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett1:12

      Mm-hmm.

   4. DMDan Murray-Serter1:13

      But actually, it's really interesting, I did a, a podcast interview with a nutritionist called Rhianon Lambert, and when I was preparing for that, I was going over my, the fact that I'd grown up fat and the fact that, um, you know, I probably did have an, an unusual, uh, relationship mentally with food.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett1:30

      (laughs)

   6. DMDan Murray-Serter1:30

      And, um, suddenly, like, I was unpacking what had happened in my 20s, and I actually had bulimia.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett1:39

      Mm-hmm.

   8. DMDan Murray-Serter1:39

      Um, I used to throw up for, like, four to five years, not intentionally though, this was, I, like, quite unusual, but that's how deeply rooted this mental health problem was. I would eat something and I would throw a lot of it up. Um, my friends would, like, know about this, but it wasn't, like, labeled, and I went to, you know, specialists in Harley Street to see what was up, and they were like, "Medically, you're fine. So psychologically there's something there." Anyway, I haven't done it since I was about 26 or whatever, but it suddenly occurred to me a few weeks ago, really interestingly, that, you know, being able to label, like, the time I got depression, the time I got anxiety, the time I got insomnia, the time I was burnt out, I remembered those moments. This one, I'd actually buried as a story-

   9. SBSteven Bartlett2:20

      Mm-hmm.

   10. DMDan Murray-Serter2:21

       ... right in my head and never, I'd never expressed it in my whole life to anyone publicly at all, full stop. Um, and it was a couple of months ago, and I wrote a newsletter on mental health and, uh, and nutrition, um, and I admitted for the first time then that I'd had bulimia, and what the symptoms were, and how long it had gone on, and the fact that I was basically, like, losing lots of weight, getting really skinny, and all I saw was someone fat.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett2:42

       Mm-hmm.

   12. DMDan Murray-Serter2:42

       Um, and it was so interesting to me, like, two revelations that came from that. One is that, um, if it's so uncomfortable, right, it's, for me, it's really embarrassing to admit to myself that I was weak enough to have a mental health condition that bad-

   13. SBSteven Bartlett2:58

       Mm-hmm.

   14. DMDan Murray-Serter2:58

       ... that I would psychologically throw up when there was nothing biologically wrong with me.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett3:03

       Mm-hmm.

   16. DMDan Murray-Serter3:03

       Um, that's really awkward to admit to yourself. It's also far more terrifying to admit it publicly once you've uncovered it.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett3:11

       Mm-hmm.

   18. DMDan Murray-Serter3:11

       And it kind of made me reflect on the fact that, um, sometimes, like, these things are actually just so painfully embarrassing about your personal life that you can even bury it to yourself. Um-

   19. SBSteven Bartlett3:20

       And did you ever understand why you were bulimic? Was there... 'C- 'cause it's a psychological, like, comorbidity. So h- what was the-

   20. DMDan Murray-Serter3:25

       Yeah.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett3:26

       ... cause per se?

   22. DMDan Murray-Serter3:27

       Yeah. It's really hard to say what the cause was, because I got it after I'd lost weight. Um, so, you know, by the time I was sort of 21 or whatever, I was in perfectly reasonable shape. Um, but I got it at, like, 23. Um, and actually there was a result of it, um, the only time I was ever hospitalized, um, it's a really random but hilarious story in its own way. Um, because I'd been throwing up, I'd been basically, like, hurting the inside of my throat, right?

   23. SBSteven Bartlett3:51

       (laughs)

   24. DMDan Murray-Serter3:51

       And I was at a festival one time and I had a coughing fit in, in, um, Hackney, and I had a coughing fit at the hospital and I coughed a hole in my throat, um, literally.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett4:02

       (laughs)

   26. DMDan Murray-Serter4:02

       It's called a pneumomediastinum. It's a very unique thing to happen apparently. And fortunately it was close enough to the Royal London Hospital to go in there and show them, right? And basically what happened to me was my head started to grow. So I was with my friends feeling fine other than this cough, and one of my friends just looked at me and was like, "Whoa." And I was like, "What?" They're like, "Mate, your head is massive."

   27. SBSteven Bartlett4:22

       (laughs)

   28. DMDan Murray-Serter4:22

       I'm like, "I'm not even talking, mate. Don't be a dick."

   29. SBSteven Bartlett4:24

       (laughs)

   30. DMDan Murray-Serter4:25

       He's like, "No, no, no, your head is growing. What is going on?" I was like, "What?" And then, uh, everyone else was like, "Oh my god." Anyway, walked to the hospital, um, it's sort of, like, 5:00 in the afternoon or whatever 'cause it was a day festival. Um, and there's like... you know, it's East London, there's quite a lot of genuinely, like, gang-related things, people are bleeding everywhere, all this stuff, and they just see me and they're like, "That guy's next," and put me-
3. 11:25 – 23:59

   Psychedelics

   1. SBSteven Bartlett11:25

      those things. But to go back to your point, please, um, you're talking about how you lost your sense of sort of stability, I guess.

   2. DMDan Murray-Serter11:31

      Yeah. I lost what I believed in this world.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett11:33

      Yeah.

   4. DMDan Murray-Serter11:34

      And if you don't have a sense of belief, it's really hard to find your purpose. And I- I would say that I- I went through a few years of that, um, very, if you-

   5. SBSteven Bartlett11:45

      At what age, sorry?

   6. DMDan Murray-Serter11:46

      Uh, so 24, my dad died.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett11:48

      Right.

   8. DMDan Murray-Serter11:48

      So I mean, also similar time to having the-

   9. SBSteven Bartlett11:51

      Yeah.

   10. DMDan Murray-Serter11:51

       I mean, I didn't even realize that as- as I- until I was saying it just now.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett11:54

       Yeah.

   12. DMDan Murray-Serter11:54

       Um, but so probably related obviously.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett11:58

       Mm-hmm.

   14. DMDan Murray-Serter11:59

       Um, but I- I went through about three years of not believing, um, in anything, right? Like really... And, you know, not very nice about it either. Um, so I grew up Jewish, um, and I've always said, in fairness, you know, I think Judaism is as bad a religion as all the other religions. You know, I don't actually personally, uh, like any one of them, but I do love what they all mean.But then, you know, it's very possible to be wise and not associate yourself with a religion. Um, what I've learned, which I find so interesting, is my identity, my connection to spirituality ... And Judaism's a weird one as well 'cause it's like a race and a religion.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett12:39

       Yeah. (laughs)

   16. DMDan Murray-Serter12:39

       So it's like you can actually be not religious. You can lose your religion but still be the race.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett12:44

       Yeah.

   18. DMDan Murray-Serter12:44

       Um, and that's, that's like an actually it's a positive in a way, because it means you don't have to disassociate from cultural values-

   19. SBSteven Bartlett12:50

       I love that.

   20. DMDan Murray-Serter12:50

       ... but you can disassociate yourself from religious ideals. And what actually happened to me was, you know, I would be relatively difficult and question people a lot when they would talk to me about their religious beliefs. Um, I'd wanna dig into them and I'd really wanna challenge the way that they think and why they think these things and how they can defend them. But not, trying not to be an absolute asshole-

   21. SBSteven Bartlett13:11

       (laughs)

   22. DMDan Murray-Serter13:11

       ... but just using my own, I guess, bitterness and my own experience of growing up being told to believe in something, which is very different to finding something. Um, and, you know, when my father passed away and I didn't have this connection to it anymore, I also felt like I didn't have a connection to spirituality or anything. And so it's very weird to have like almost the death of a religion as a human being, because that's your death of-

   23. SBSteven Bartlett13:35

       Yes.

   24. DMDan Murray-Serter13:35

       ... your connection to this Earth and-

   25. SBSteven Bartlett13:36

       Yeah.

   26. DMDan Murray-Serter13:37

       ... purpose and everything. And it wasn't until I was 27 really, um, one of my really good friends told me about, um ... And obviously we've been talking about Christian Angermayer as well, like our mutual friend, so this is a relevant conversation. Told me about ayahuasca.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett13:50

       Mm-hmm.

   28. DMDan Murray-Serter13:50

       And I'd never heard of it before. I didn't even know what it was. Um, and I went on a retreat with him. And, um, I mean, I came back that weekend completely ... I mean, when I say a 180, I went from the most cynical nonbeliever in the whole world, negatively so, to, like, without sounding like a complete twat, like positively enlightened and confident, never, never more confident of anything in my life, um, of spiritual realism-

   29. SBSteven Bartlett14:24

       Yeah.

   30. DMDan Murray-Serter14:25

       ... and what I believe in. And ultimately what I believe in, when I have these, like, fun conversations with people now about spirituality, which is, you know, what do I believe in? I believe in nature. I believe in, um, looking at the beauty of the world and how cycles work, which is science, right? And the way that my ayahuasca experience actually opened my eyes to believing in something spiritual or greater than myself was 90% of my hallucination was observing what happens in nature with cycles, right? Birds, bees, oxygen, air, soil, all of this recycling all the time for a sustainable system, and being like, you know, that is in itself a scientific miracle, but something greater than us that's always happening throughout time.
4. 23:59 – 40:44

   Posting online despite what people think

   1. SBSteven Bartlett23:59

      actually... Uh, that's actually a good segue onto that topic as well, 'cause it's something that, that I know for a fact a lot of people struggle with in different forms. And, um, but in... but also specifically with this topic, which is putting yourself out there on the internet.

   2. DMDan Murray-Serter24:13

      Yeah.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett24:14

      Um, I know this because a lot of people have told me, but also because I've been there.

   4. DMDan Murray-Serter24:19

      Yeah.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett24:19

      Right? So, let's... If we rewind a couple years of my own life, a guy called Ash Jones says to me, "You should make a YouTube channel."I dismissed the idea, obviously, because I'm like, "Well, people are gonna think that I think I'm M- M- Mahatma Gandhi." Like, or, like, people are gonna think that I think I'm a genius, or that I think I have all the answers, so I'm not doing that. Eventually, after two years, he sits me down in this room, and it took about eight or nine hours for us to shoot a two-minute video, because I couldn't speak. I- I- I was self-conscious and all of these things. And I was plagued by that thought that my friends back home who knew me in school will think, "Oh, Steve's a dickhead. He's changed. What's he doing? Who does he think he is?" And that almost imprisoned me. It almost stopped me from doing the thing that actually liberated me, made me the most fulfilled I've ever been, and by allowing me to be my, like, truest self. And in fact, what I wanted to do was be true to myself. And, um, it felt like I was worried that people would think I was, um, being something I wasn't or trying to fake myself. And so I- I guess the question that I have for you is, you know a lot of stuff, but you've not... You know, you've got a great podcast, Secret Leaders. You've got a new podcast as well, which is centered around your brand, Hyt. Um, you've struggled to put yourself out there on the internet and social media. Can you explain why?

   6. DMDan Murray-Serter25:39

      Yes. Oh, I think that's actually a good question, Steve. Um, but also because we connect a lot on this, right?

   7. SBSteven Bartlett25:44

      Yeah.

   8. DMDan Murray-Serter25:44

      So you're like my unofficial mentor with a few voice notes-

   9. SBSteven Bartlett25:46

      (laughs)

   10. DMDan Murray-Serter25:47

       ... where I'm like, "He's got a fucking point."

   11. SBSteven Bartlett25:48

       Yeah (laughs) .

   12. DMDan Murray-Serter25:50

       Um, so, you know, it's... I guess I'll put it a slightly different way. You know, I was listening to one of your early... But you sent me this actually, your podcast with- with him. Sorry, what was his name?

   13. SBSteven Bartlett25:59

       Ash Jones.

   14. DMDan Murray-Serter26:00

       Yeah, Ash. Yeah, so you- you-

   15. SBSteven Bartlett26:01

       Oh, yeah, conversations with him are amazing.

   16. DMDan Murray-Serter26:01

       You told me to listen to an episode, which I did, and, you know, he was talking about the early days of Social Chain.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett26:05

       Mm-hmm.

   18. DMDan Murray-Serter26:06

       You learned early that you, you were bringing in most of the revenue, like Steve was bringing in most of the revenue.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett26:11

       Mm-hmm.

   20. DMDan Murray-Serter26:11

       Therefore, the business decision made lots of sense to center that around you.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett26:14

       Mm-hmm.

   22. DMDan Murray-Serter26:15

       I think when you're doing B2B, that makes loads of sense. The challenge I have is, um, my products are B2C, right? They're for consumers.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett26:23

       Mm-hmm.

   24. DMDan Murray-Serter26:23

       Um, putting as much time and effort and thought and energy into promoting myself is- is mental energy I should be putting into the brand.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett26:31

       Yeah.

   26. DMDan Murray-Serter26:32

       Um, you know, there is, I think, uh, probably a reasonable compromise and also, like all things, this is a bit of a developing scenario. However, um, you know, it's a very fair thing to say that I'm not the product. This is the product. Um, inside my company, we could all agree that that is, like, broadly true, right? We're selling a thing, we're not selling me. Whereas, you know, going through exactly the same experience at Social Chain, you guys, if you weren't in the room, you guys would have come to the same conclusion, which is Steve's the greatest, like, part of the funnel here.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett27:01

       Mm-hmm.

   28. DMDan Murray-Serter27:01

       So, we as a company succeed when Steve's succeeding, so that's the kind of marketing funnel we should back. So, you know, I can see you sort of smi- smirking at me, because this is the story I tell myself.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett27:11

       Ah, okay, fine.

   30. NANarrator27:12

       (laughs)
5. 40:44 – 53:17

   Burnout

   1. DMDan Murray-Serter40:45

   2. SBSteven Bartlett40:45

      And you ... And it ... And that kind of segues back to the initial tweet where you talked about depression, anxiety, burnout, and insomnia. So let's talk about burnout then.

   3. DMDan Murray-Serter40:54

      Mm-hmm.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett40:54

      It's a very, um, a very popular topic. I actually think one of the most listened to episode of this podcast was the top ... was the one about burnout-

   5. DMDan Murray-Serter41:03

      Mm-hmm.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett41:03

      ... um, and us being a burnout generation and how we've kind of glamorized it. We're optimizing our lives so we can fill it with more things to do. Did you burn out? How did you burn out? And do you understand why you burnt out?

   7. DMDan Murray-Serter41:14

      100%. Um, you know, uh, Gary Vee is a very clever man, um, very intelligent. But, you know, he has created a negative impact on society that he would probably be upset about, because he seems to be a lovely man that really deeply cares about stuff from what I can see.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett41:29

      Mm-hmm.

   9. DMDan Murray-Serter41:30

      I believe his authenticity, but he has created hustle culture and hustle porn.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett41:36

       And you know what? I met Gary Vee, had him on this podcast, and you're right I think in every, um, depiction of him there. He's a genuinely authentic person. You meet him and think, "You are who I thought you were online." Um, and you're completely right in the sense that because he's being his authentic self, which we can't h- you know, uh, um, we can't criticize anyone for being. In fact, that's what we tell everyone to be, "Be yourself and- and share, you know, sh- and be willing to share it with the world." The issue I think is you're pointing out is his lack of appreciation that ... about nuance and that everyone is fundamentally different and everyone's not Gary Vee. I had that problem too when I started. I couldn't understand why people weren't sacrificing their lives to build businesses and working till 4:00 AM in the morning and sleeping under the desk. I thought everyone that wasn't doing that was both an idiot and inferior.

   11. DMDan Murray-Serter42:29

       And wasting their time.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett42:30

       And wasting their time.

   13. DMDan Murray-Serter42:31

       Yeah.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett42:31

       And they would never be happy-

   15. DMDan Murray-Serter42:32

       Yeah.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett42:32

       ... because for as far as Steve Bartlett's brain could tell him-

   17. DMDan Murray-Serter42:36

       Yeah.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett42:36

       ... that was happiness.

   19. DMDan Murray-Serter42:37

       Yeah, and because, like, all of the pain that you suffer is part of, part of the game.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett42:41

       Yeah.

   21. DMDan Murray-Serter42:41

       And-

   22. SBSteven Bartlett42:41

       Yeah.

   23. DMDan Murray-Serter42:42

       But that stuff isn't ... This is the thing, right? That stuff isn't not true. You do have to grow.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett42:47

       Mm-hmm.

   25. DMDan Murray-Serter42:47

       Growth is painful and you will have sleepless nights and all the other bits and pieces. That is part of the parcel. The thing where we confuse this is it's all mutually exclusive-

   26. SBSteven Bartlett42:55

       Sure.

   27. DMDan Murray-Serter42:55

       ... AKA my identity has to be that and only that because that's how Gary Vee and, like, a few other geniuses in society have got to the top of their games. But-Here's the thing. Like, there's- there's two reasons why I had burnout last time. The first was because I wasn't happy on what I was working, and running a startup can feel a bit like a cage sometimes. So, uh, unless you're really sure, I say this with entrepreneurs all the time, "Are you sure this is the company you wanna build? 'Cause if it's not, you're gonna be doing it anyway. And then you are your own bird keeper. You have locked yourself in a cage.""

   28. SBSteven Bartlett43:30

       Mm-hmm.

   29. DMDan Murray-Serter43:30

       And that's what I did with Grabble. I got lucky. I found a niche, an opportunity. It grew exponentially really quickly, millions of downloads, had a million monthly active users in our end. We had like a, you know, even acquisition that failed, sadly, but you know, would have made us millionaires. It was a real journey with that company.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett43:49

       It was fashion for Tinder, basically.
6. 53:17 – 1:01:30

   Anxiety

   1. SBSteven Bartlett53:17

      way, way up. Yeah. And so we talked about burnout there. The next thing, so, and that's, that was during your time at Grabble.

   2. DMDan Murray-Serter53:22

      Hm.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett53:22

      The next thing from that tweet was anxiety.

   4. DMDan Murray-Serter53:25

      Yeah, so the anxiety and, and insomnia were completely linked with each other. So, a really, really fascinating experience. To me, the most interesting of all of them, really. Because at the time I got an- so, at the time I got insomnia, and this is when anxiety starts to build, 'cause anxiety does go with insomnia very well, because, uh, you start to get scared of getting sleep, which builds anxiety. You can't really sleep when you've got anxiety, so it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy, like, every single night. So I had insomnia for six months. And my symptoms were, I'd go to sleep at midnight, but I'd wake up at 2:00 AM. And at 2:00 AM I was wide awake and there was no going back to sleep whatsoever, no matter what I did. So, this was at a time when business was going well, I was pretty happy in life, I was getting married. Um, yes, my dad had passed away, but my mum had just recovered from cancer, so I'd had, like, the whole fear of her l- and she's already had it before and recovered once, so very unlikely to rec- recover the second time. But she had ... I have a roof over my head, I practiced gratitude. You know, like, I am just that archetypal dickhead that's just too smug for the world.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett54:29

      (laughs)

   6. DMDan Murray-Serter54:30

      And I just suddenly couldn't sleep. And I was like, "I don't understand. Like, I have everything that I wanted, and I'm not, I don't even want much. You know, I've worked on that stuff, so where has this come from?" And, you know, basically chronic anxiety, the feeling of chronic anxiety is lots of sweating, lots of self-doubt, um, lots of, um, almost like a bit of a personality change in me. You know, outwardly, I'm quite confident, but you know, this, uh, experience with anxiety was sort of really making me question everything about what I say, how I feel, who I am. And you know, it was in this cycle where, if I'm about to go to sleep-... I'm not going to be able to go to sleep because of this, you know, these feelings of doubt and stories I'm telling myself. And it became this perpetual illness. And by the way, I had tried so many things, right? Because-

   7. SBSteven Bartlett55:25

      When you say doubt-

   8. DMDan Murray-Serter55:26

      Yeah.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett55:26

      ... and these stories you're telling-

   10. DMDan Murray-Serter55:27

       Self-doubt.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett55:28

       Self-doubt?

   12. DMDan Murray-Serter55:28

       Yeah.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett55:28

       About business?

   14. DMDan Murray-Serter55:29

       Self-doubt about business, self-doubt about who I am, um, and about why I'm feeling like this. Anxiety's such a complicated thing-

   15. SBSteven Bartlett55:36

       Sure.

   16. DMDan Murray-Serter55:36

       ... because, um, you know, there's a great, uh, I think it's by Lao Tzu, the, and it's not a perfect, um, verbatim quote, but he says something like, "Depression is a symptom of sadness for the past we've lived. Anxiety is obsession and confusion over the future you're gonna have." And that's why, like, mindfulness and being present is the antidote. Um, I think I really resonate with that, because, you know, my own depression experience was loss of my father, the past. My anxiety was, like, the person, A, was anxiety about the night I, night sleep I'm about to not have-

   17. SBSteven Bartlett56:07

       Mm.

   18. DMDan Murray-Serter56:07

       ... but also, like, you know, who, who am I going to be? What's going to happen? How long can I live like this?

   19. SBSteven Bartlett56:12

       Feels like it's self-fulfilling in a way as well.

   20. DMDan Murray-Serter56:14

       Exactly. So, the, the truth is, I tried all these different things. So, like, I went to, I did therapy, I did sleep therapy, I used all the apps, Calm, Sleepio. I tried, you know, uh, cutting out alcohol, I tried drinking much more alcohol. (laughs) Like, I tried, you know, like, you name it, I'd, like, not smoked weed for a while, I was like, "Right, that's it, getting a weed habit back."

   21. SBSteven Bartlett56:35

       (laughs)

   22. DMDan Murray-Serter56:35

       You know, like, anything that you could possibly do to just, like, stay zonked. But I went to the doctor and he recommended me sleeping pills. But that really irked me. And we, you know, we just talked about, uh, Lost Connections, Johann Hari, right? Um, I don't appreciate medication that will work that night as solving my problem. And I'm smart enough to know that it wouldn't solve my problem, it would just help me sleep that night.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett56:57

       Mm-hmm.

   24. DMDan Murray-Serter56:57

       So, I've still got those sleeping pills, and I never used them. And I kept on going for this journey, the search for why this was happening. And it led me, in the end, to a dietician-

   25. SBSteven Bartlett57:07

       Mm.

   26. DMDan Murray-Serter57:07

       ... um, which I'd never worked with before. And by the way, I didn't even know what a dietician was. I'd heard of nutritionists 'cause isn't that just everyone on Instagram? Um, but a dietician, uh, had no idea. But it turns out a dietician is basically a nutritionist with a scientific degree, they can work in the NHS, and they work with sick people. So if you have a sick problem like insomnia, you go to a dietician, and they will literally tell you medically what they can do to affect your, your, your experience. And she just said to me, um, she basically asked me about what I was eating and my habits and, like, all this kind of stuff, and I told her, and this is someone who I think I'm quite healthy, generally speaking. And she just said, um, "You're basically not getting enough brain food." And I was like, "I don't even know what that means. Like, I don't understand the context of that statement." And she was like, "Well, uh, let me put it this way. Your brain is an organ, right? It's 60% fat. 90% of the fat in your brain is this one compound called DHA. And most people that come to me with, uh, essentially mental health problems, which is what you currently have, have nutritional deficiencies and don't realize there are three main things that I would recommend in your condition. One is omega-3s, the other is B vitamins," because again, that's for energy. So she explained that I'm having a spike at 2:00 AM, so I need that spike not to happen. I needed to have, like, much more slow release of B vitamins in my energy supply in my body every day. "And then the third thing was blueberry extract because it's an antioxidant and would help my glymphatic system whilst I slept." Right? She's saying this stuff to me, I'm, like, so skeptical I can't even tell you, not only not a supplement taker, um, but she's now recommending me three supplements, and I'd been given pills by the doctor, and I'm like, I mean, like, "Come on, how is this gonna be any better?" So you can imagine my complete and utter surprise when I took those three things. I mean, they were very expensive, they were, like, medically prescribed ones, so super potent, from, you know, I think it was Whole Foods or Planet Organic, they were pricey. But within two weeks I was sleeping like a baby, and I wasn't, I wasn't feeling anxiety. And when you have a moment like that in your life, and you know this 'cause you're a deeply inquisitive person-

   27. SBSteven Bartlett59:13

       Mm-hmm.

   28. DMDan Murray-Serter59:13

       ... it makes you stop, and it makes you go, "Hold on a second. Like, this was so simply solved. I don't actually believe it to be true. This must be a placebo. This must be finally my placebo that, that has caused this." Um, instead I did what I do, I'm quite nerdy, I started reading science papers, 'cause I kind of ... You know, the one thing I do hate on Instagram is, like, everyone's a nutritionist, everyone's a this, everyone's a that. I'm like, "I don't wanna listen to some guy that takes nootropics telling me about, like, my brain and mental performance. I wanna see what scientists that don't take any credit actually have to say about this stuff." And I learned that there are thousands, literally, of science papers, this is why I did the newsletter, I knew I'd never run out of content, it's like literally the deepest well of content ever, ever, ever to do what I'm doing. Um, there were thousands of science papers on all of these ingredients and how they impact not just your mental health below the baseline, so if you're suffering from insomnia, if you're suffering from anxiety, even if you've got depression, schizophrenia, like, so many medical papers, scientific journals, sorry, um, about the impact of taking a high supplementation of X, Y, Z, or obviously much more food of that particular ingredient, and the impact it's had. And then when you're at the baseline, all of these examples about nutrition impacting your mental performance. So this is things like decision-making, focus, energy, like all of the things you, we want in life, right? No one wants to really be recovering from a mental health problem, they wanna be at their baseline and thriving. Um, it just took me by so much surprise 'cause it's like, "Well, if this is in this, like, if this is so well known in science, why didn't I know about it?" I was working in Shoreditch at a scaling startup, like bearded, glasses, hipster twat, like-

   29. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:56

       (laughs)

   30. DMDan Murray-Serter1:00:56

       ... you know, keto, vegan, like, yes, I've heard of all of them, um, all my friends intermittent fast, yada, yada, yada. This is just, like, common sense brain food. Why is that not a thing that people know about? Why is taking care of your brain not something anyone's actually talked about clearly and-... actually found a really meaningful way to communicate what that stands for. And what science papers do really badly is, like, you know, the- when I synthesize them, there's about two or three sentences that are saying the point, but it's-
7. 1:01:30 – 1:14:20

   Supplements & brand

   1. DMDan Murray-Serter1:01:30

   2. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:30

      Yeah.

   3. DMDan Murray-Serter1:01:30

      Um, so I was like, "First step, newsletter. I will add some emojis and some lols and make it millennial and fun and I will get people to read science papers without even realizing they're necessarily reading them." So, every week you'll learn something from a scientific journal, which I will link back to that you can click, and by the way, no one clicks it. Um, and you can learn something that science says is good for your brain every week. Um, that is essentially how the journey with Heights actually started, with this, like, realization that something as, you know when you s- y- you know, the beautiful moment in life where you can spot an opportunity-

   4. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:02

      Mm.

   5. DMDan Murray-Serter1:02:02

      ... so big, and actually solved by the power of communication and brand. Um, you know, a lot of people say brand and comms, that is not a market strategy, that is not defensible. I think those people are idiots-

   6. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:18

      Mm-hmm.

   7. DMDan Murray-Serter1:02:18

      ... and the wrong market, because, you know, my counter to that is, do you think that Buddhist monks got everyone meditating, or was it calm and headspace? Do you think that we love to run because we watch the Olympics, or is it Nike getting in our heads? Do you think that people around the world are doing yoga because of, like, you know, some ashram, or do we actually think it's Lululemon? Brands create change in the world that we want to see, and brands connect with human beings and create communities, and the power of social media and standing for something is where brands take something that was always done before anyway, stick a tick on a shoe, it's still just a shoe. Like, Lululemon, like, it's just, like, a little logo, an omega logo on pants. It doesn't matter. The way that you express what you do and why you do it is the thing that has the power to change. Um, my opinion and my own experience of being, you know, in that Shoreditch hipster twat area where you just know about things, like, early and trends, to have never come into contact with something so important that can have such an impact, as nutrition and mental health, nutrition and taking care of your brain, to me, felt like a calling, right? I've just suffered for six months, I've overcome something, uh, this is all I want to do with my life.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:36

      And so you started Heights.

   9. DMDan Murray-Serter1:03:37

      And so I started Heights.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:39

       How's it going?

   11. DMDan Murray-Serter1:03:41

       Great question. We launched January the 6th in a pandemic. Well, not in a pandemic yet.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:46

       I have to say, you know, I saw this on my Facebook feed, and, um, I think I messaged you about investing in the company just because it was beautiful. (laughs) I saw the branding on the website and the way that you'd done the website, and I was like, "This team get branding." And in the direct to consumer world, it's interesting what you were just saying there about comms and b- well, like, the way that I hear it is, like, storytelling and, um, uh, platforms, um, enabling, um, almost democratizing the access to, like, build great products now. Because back in the, like, if we think about Nike, shelf space-

   13. DMDan Murray-Serter1:04:20

       Yeah.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:20

       ... or you think about the, the, you know, the, the power that the Unilevers have, you're n- in fact, not, y- the war isn't always storytelling and brand or comms. It's, in fact, like, knowing a guy or price points. But in the direct to consumer social media world, brand and, uh, comms and storytelling can win.

   15. DMDan Murray-Serter1:04:38

       And product design.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:38

       Exactly, and product design, which is a huge-

   17. DMDan Murray-Serter1:04:40

       So-

   18. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:40

       ... part of the story. And that for me was beautiful. So I, I, uh, I was straight in there to try and invest in your company and, I mean, you know, you know for a fact that I've been taking Heights ever since-

   19. DMDan Murray-Serter1:04:49

       January, I think.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:50

       ... pre-launch, I-

   21. DMDan Murray-Serter1:04:50

       Yeah, yeah.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:51

       ... pre-launch, I think it was, yeah.

   23. DMDan Murray-Serter1:04:51

       December maybe. What's your experience been as a customer there?

   24. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:54

       I, I love it. And, you know, this is, and this is, this is where I really, I, this is why I always also really wanted to talk to you today. So, there is probably several people on a spectrum of, like, you know, devout, um-

   25. DMDan Murray-Serter1:05:05

       Yeah.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:05

       ... vitamin takers-

   27. DMDan Murray-Serter1:05:06

       Yeah.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:06

       ... or ... And then there's people that don't understand or believe in it.

   29. DMDan Murray-Serter1:05:09

       Yeah, I was that.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:10

       Yeah. And so how do you confront the skepticism? Because with products like this, it is hard for the user to establish cause and effect.

Episode duration: 2:06:05