Overcoming Depression, Burnout, Anxiety and Insomnia with Dan Murray-Serter | E54

Steven Bartlett 0:00 It's very rare that you get to meet entrepreneurs that are following and have followed in the steps that y- you've followed in, in your life. And, like, so whenever I meet people like you and Ben Francis, who is similar age to me, who has, like, similar life ambitions, um, I see it as, like, this really amazing, rare opportunity to learn for myself and to ask honestly, like, selfish questions. And w- I saw on your Twitter, I think it was over the Mental Health Week period, you did a tweet where you talked about your experiences with depression, burnout, and anxiety. And from what I know about your story, you experienced those things in that order.

Dan Murray-Serter 0:39 Yep.

Steven Bartlett 0:40 So I think that's a good place to start, which is, let's talk about depression and the, the, the role that depression played in your life and where it came from and how you've overcome or are overcoming or handling depression.

Dan Murray-Serter 0:52 Yeah. So interesting actually, because, um, I, I realized when I started to talk about mental health stuff, even more interestingly than what you've just said, I kind of realized that I'd been burying another mental health problem. So actually the, the tweet was more depression, burnout, anxiety, um, and insomnia.

Steven Bartlett 1:12 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 1:13 But actually, it's really interesting, I did a, a podcast interview with a nutritionist called Rhianon Lambert, and when I was preparing for that, I was going over my, the fact that I'd grown up fat and the fact that, um, you know, I probably did have an, an unusual, uh, relationship mentally with food.

Steven Bartlett 1:30 (laughs)

Dan Murray-Serter 1:30 And, um, suddenly, like, I was unpacking what had happened in my 20s, and I actually had bulimia.

Steven Bartlett 1:39 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 1:39 Um, I used to throw up for, like, four to five years, not intentionally though, this was, I, like, quite unusual, but that's how deeply rooted this mental health problem was. I would eat something and I would throw a lot of it up. Um, my friends would, like, know about this, but it wasn't, like, labeled, and I went to, you know, specialists in Harley Street to see what was up, and they were like, "Medically, you're fine. So psychologically there's something there." Anyway, I haven't done it since I was about 26 or whatever, but it suddenly occurred to me a few weeks ago, really interestingly, that, you know, being able to label, like, the time I got depression, the time I got anxiety, the time I got insomnia, the time I was burnt out, I remembered those moments. This one, I'd actually buried as a story-

Steven Bartlett 2:20 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 2:21 ... right in my head and never, I'd never expressed it in my whole life to anyone publicly at all, full stop. Um, and it was a couple of months ago, and I wrote a newsletter on mental health and, uh, and nutrition, um, and I admitted for the first time then that I'd had bulimia, and what the symptoms were, and how long it had gone on, and the fact that I was basically, like, losing lots of weight, getting really skinny, and all I saw was someone fat.

Steven Bartlett 2:42 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 2:42 Um, and it was so interesting to me, like, two revelations that came from that. One is that, um, if it's so uncomfortable, right, it's, for me, it's really embarrassing to admit to myself that I was weak enough to have a mental health condition that bad-

Steven Bartlett 2:58 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 2:58 ... that I would psychologically throw up when there was nothing biologically wrong with me.

Steven Bartlett 3:03 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 3:03 Um, that's really awkward to admit to yourself. It's also far more terrifying to admit it publicly once you've uncovered it.

Steven Bartlett 3:11 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 3:11 And it kind of made me reflect on the fact that, um, sometimes, like, these things are actually just so painfully embarrassing about your personal life that you can even bury it to yourself. Um-

Steven Bartlett 3:20 And did you ever understand why you were bulimic? Was there... 'C- 'cause it's a psychological, like, comorbidity. So h- what was the-

Dan Murray-Serter 3:25 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 3:26 ... cause per se?

Dan Murray-Serter 3:27 Yeah. It's really hard to say what the cause was, because I got it after I'd lost weight. Um, so, you know, by the time I was sort of 21 or whatever, I was in perfectly reasonable shape. Um, but I got it at, like, 23. Um, and actually there was a result of it, um, the only time I was ever hospitalized, um, it's a really random but hilarious story in its own way. Um, because I'd been throwing up, I'd been basically, like, hurting the inside of my throat, right?

Steven Bartlett 3:51 (laughs)

Dan Murray-Serter 3:51 And I was at a festival one time and I had a coughing fit in, in, um, Hackney, and I had a coughing fit at the hospital and I coughed a hole in my throat, um, literally.

Steven Bartlett 4:02 (laughs)

Dan Murray-Serter 4:02 It's called a pneumomediastinum. It's a very unique thing to happen apparently. And fortunately it was close enough to the Royal London Hospital to go in there and show them, right? And basically what happened to me was my head started to grow. So I was with my friends feeling fine other than this cough, and one of my friends just looked at me and was like, "Whoa." And I was like, "What?" They're like, "Mate, your head is massive."

Steven Bartlett 4:22 (laughs)

Dan Murray-Serter 4:22 I'm like, "I'm not even talking, mate. Don't be a dick."

Steven Bartlett 4:24 (laughs)

Dan Murray-Serter 4:25 He's like, "No, no, no, your head is growing. What is going on?" I was like, "What?" And then, uh, everyone else was like, "Oh my god." Anyway, walked to the hospital, um, it's sort of, like, 5:00 in the afternoon or whatever 'cause it was a day festival. Um, and there's like... you know, it's East London, there's quite a lot of genuinely, like, gang-related things, people are bleeding everywhere, all this stuff, and they just see me and they're like, "That guy's next," and put me-

Steven Bartlett 4:46 Oh.

Dan Murray-Serter 4:46 ... and I went into intensive care for, like, the whole week, um, whilst they were basically trying to sew up this hole in my throat. But-

Steven Bartlett 4:51 When you say your head was, your head was growing...

Dan Murray-Serter 4:52 So oxygen was going, uh, not going, like, in my mouth and through my bloodstream properly-

Steven Bartlett 4:58 Oh. So your-

Dan Murray-Serter 4:58 ... some of it was escaping around my head and my brain.

Steven Bartlett 5:00 Wow.

Dan Murray-Serter 5:00 So it was, like, an emergency procedure to, like, like, get me on, uh, meds and sort me out. But it's so interesting because even knowing that that had happened to me, I didn't relate the cause to, uh, actually a deeper root cause, which was another mental health problem. Um, to be honest with you, like, I couldn't say to you what the trigger was beyond this, like, story.

Steven Bartlett 5:21 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 5:21 You know, the things that we grow up with, the people that we grow up with, those little, you know, bullying and things like that, I mean, you know, in some good respects, because I grew up fat, I've got a good personality and a sense of humor. So I've always been, like, able to really connect with people because I just never had it all my way kind of thing. Um-

Steven Bartlett 5:37 Why... Do you know this, this, this story about-

Dan Murray-Serter 5:39 Go on.

Steven Bartlett 5:39 ... you know, um, people that are fat having better s- senses of humor and being a little bit more, you know, quote unquote bubbly?

Dan Murray-Serter 5:45 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 5:46 Why, why is that? (laughs)

Dan Murray-Serter 5:48 I think self-deprecation can sometimes be, like, a defense mechanism, right?

Steven Bartlett 5:52 Sure.

Dan Murray-Serter 5:52 Um, and ultimately, you know, with these things, you're gonna hear them a lot.

Steven Bartlett 5:55 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 5:55 If you grow up fat, you're gonna hear it a lot, right? You're gonna go to a new environment, someone's gonna bully you for the obvious. And so you kind of find a way of coping with it in your own way.

Steven Bartlett 6:03 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 6:04 Um, um, for me, it's just interesting because the other mental health, um, issues that I've had in my life, I'm able to trace back usually to a moment or a thing or, or reflect on why.

Steven Bartlett 6:14 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 6:14 This one kind of just happened later.And then as so- like, you know, I had it for a few years, but then it just also went away.

Steven Bartlett 6:20 At what age was this?

Dan Murray-Serter 6:21 So about 23 to about 27.

Steven Bartlett 6:25 And you're how old now?

Dan Murray-Serter 6:26 Uh, 33.

Steven Bartlett 6:26 So it was- so you had it for 23 to 27, for about four years, and you overcame?

Dan Murray-Serter 6:33 Yeah, but like-

Steven Bartlett 6:34 Oh.

Dan Murray-Serter 6:34 ... naturally. I wasn't doing anything different. I mean, I started to learn what foods would make me more sick than others, if that makes sense as well.

Steven Bartlett 6:40 Right. (laughs)

Dan Murray-Serter 6:41 Um, but I find it super interesting, again, less so... I mean, it'd be cool to know the trigger, obviously.

Steven Bartlett 6:47 Yeah.

Dan Murray-Serter 6:47 But it's almost less so that and more so the fact that, um, it kind of ran its course as well was interesting to me, and that I buried it-

Steven Bartlett 6:55 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 6:55 ... right in my head. Um, and actually, 27, um, you know, was the start of like a whole other, you know, experience in life for me anyway. So it is possible that, um, you know, these things are related to stress and other things. Um, my entrepreneurship journey started at 24, so it's not completely unrelated, but not quite, not- not enough to actually label it and say it's for a thing. Um, but then, you know, the other- the other experiences, um, that I've had with- with mental health are a l- lot clearer. So I think depression is a really complex term, um, and the only, I think it's really worth saying, the only relation that I've got to depression that I'm comfortable talking about, um, is after my father passed away. And I think that's really reasonable, right?

Steven Bartlett 7:48 Mm-hmm. Of course.

Dan Murray-Serter 7:48 And so this is the thing, I- I- because I worked so ma- so much with people in mental health and experts, I- I know like depression is also not something to claim you have when you feel down or, do you know? It's- it's very different, like... And obviously there is a spectrum of these things as well. But for me, my depressive episode was right after my father passed away because he was on life support for six months and overcame when they said he's a 100% going to die, actually survived, made it out of the hospital into a recovery home, and then someone basically had a cold around him and he died of their cold, catching their cold after the entire recovery process. Um, the truth of the matter is that my depression was actually interestingly sort of linked with a lack of belief in, um, a higher power or whatever you want to call it, justice, like everything, right? Because-

Steven Bartlett 8:41 Unfairness, and...

Dan Murray-Serter 8:42 Yeah, and like my dad was like such a generous spirited guy, he was blind, he had all of these things wrong with him anyway, and still, like, was just the funniest, nicest, warmest person anyone knows, and, um, the last person on earth to kind of deserve something like that. And so for me, the, um, the experience after he passed away... So he believed in God. So when he died, I was like, "That's my connection to God gone, therefore I straight up believe in nothing." Um, you know, I think it's really interesting to have conversations with people, intelligent people like yourself, when you talk about purpose and vision and these things. It's very hard to imagine that you've got a purpose, a vision for anything, if suddenly you've switched and you've switched off and you've said, "I believe in nothing."

Steven Bartlett 9:27 You- totally destabilized.

Dan Murray-Serter 9:28 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 9:29 Yeah. I remember the- the feeling of being... I was religious until I was, well I was Christian until I was 18, and then... Which I think will surprise a lot of people because I'm a very rational, s- sort of someone that makes a lot of decisions and thinks from first principles or logic. And then at 18 I lost my faith per se.

Dan Murray-Serter 9:43 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 9:44 And it was the most like... The two years following that were the two most destabilizing years of my life, as... And I- I became a total obsessive atheist, which means I read every book, watched every documentary video. And then I got to the point, and this is when I realized that I'd overcome my sort of wobble, where I no longer cared about e- engaging in these debates with people that agreed or disagreed with me, and I was at peace with my own beliefs that, um... I guess which is like agnosticism, if that's a term?

Dan Murray-Serter 10:14 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 10:14 And the other really destabilizing moment in my life where I lost my sense of purpose was the day someone offered me about f- f- 20 to 30 million, um, hypothetically, to buy my business. And 18-year-old Steve shows up, I've talked about this a few times, because he thought we were doing this for money. He thought that was the goal. And so I go home that night, I remember where I sat like it was yesterday, I'm typing rightmove.com looking at houses at 24 years old. And then I'm looking at these houses and I'm getting this real sort of en- deep sense of, um, unfulfillment, but thinking, "Well, that was- that was it? That was the game?" And then like, okay, so, um, Autotrader, boom, boom, boom, Lamborghini Aventador. I'm looking at this Aventador and feeling like I'd be poorer, not in sense- a financial sense, but in like a spiritual sense, if I chose to step on what's clearly a hamster wheel.

Dan Murray-Serter 11:04 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 11:04 And- and that f- so from that day, the day after, I didn't know why I was (laughs) I didn't know why I was working hard anymore. I didn't know why I was building the business. And I had to then go in sear- search of a real form of stability in my life, which was, you know... I love it, but I thought I loved it for another reason. I thought I loved it for money, but I loved it for connection and for conversations like this and

Steven Bartlett 11:25 those things. But to go back to your point, please, um, you're talking about how you lost your sense of sort of stability, I guess.

Dan Murray-Serter 11:31 Yeah. I lost what I believed in this world.

Steven Bartlett 11:33 Yeah.

Dan Murray-Serter 11:34 And if you don't have a sense of belief, it's really hard to find your purpose. And I- I would say that I- I went through a few years of that, um, very, if you-

Steven Bartlett 11:45 At what age, sorry?

Dan Murray-Serter 11:46 Uh, so 24, my dad died.

Steven Bartlett 11:48 Right.

Dan Murray-Serter 11:48 So I mean, also similar time to having the-

Steven Bartlett 11:51 Yeah.

Dan Murray-Serter 11:51 I mean, I didn't even realize that as- as I- until I was saying it just now.

Steven Bartlett 11:54 Yeah.

Dan Murray-Serter 11:54 Um, but so probably related obviously.

Steven Bartlett 11:58 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 11:59 Um, but I- I went through about three years of not believing, um, in anything, right? Like really... And, you know, not very nice about it either. Um, so I grew up Jewish, um, and I've always said, in fairness, you know, I think Judaism is as bad a religion as all the other religions. You know, I don't actually personally, uh, like any one of them, but I do love what they all mean.But then, you know, it's very possible to be wise and not associate yourself with a religion. Um, what I've learned, which I find so interesting, is my identity, my connection to spirituality ... And Judaism's a weird one as well 'cause it's like a race and a religion.

Steven Bartlett 12:39 Yeah. (laughs)

Dan Murray-Serter 12:39 So it's like you can actually be not religious. You can lose your religion but still be the race.

Steven Bartlett 12:44 Yeah.

Dan Murray-Serter 12:44 Um, and that's, that's like an actually it's a positive in a way, because it means you don't have to disassociate from cultural values-

Steven Bartlett 12:50 I love that.

Dan Murray-Serter 12:50 ... but you can disassociate yourself from religious ideals. And what actually happened to me was, you know, I would be relatively difficult and question people a lot when they would talk to me about their religious beliefs. Um, I'd wanna dig into them and I'd really wanna challenge the way that they think and why they think these things and how they can defend them. But not, trying not to be an absolute asshole-

Steven Bartlett 13:11 (laughs)

Dan Murray-Serter 13:11 ... but just using my own, I guess, bitterness and my own experience of growing up being told to believe in something, which is very different to finding something. Um, and, you know, when my father passed away and I didn't have this connection to it anymore, I also felt like I didn't have a connection to spirituality or anything. And so it's very weird to have like almost the death of a religion as a human being, because that's your death of-

Steven Bartlett 13:35 Yes.

Dan Murray-Serter 13:35 ... your connection to this Earth and-

Steven Bartlett 13:36 Yeah.

Dan Murray-Serter 13:37 ... purpose and everything. And it wasn't until I was 27 really, um, one of my really good friends told me about, um ... And obviously we've been talking about Christian Angermayer as well, like our mutual friend, so this is a relevant conversation. Told me about ayahuasca.

Steven Bartlett 13:50 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 13:50 And I'd never heard of it before. I didn't even know what it was. Um, and I went on a retreat with him. And, um, I mean, I came back that weekend completely ... I mean, when I say a 180, I went from the most cynical nonbeliever in the whole world, negatively so, to, like, without sounding like a complete twat, like positively enlightened and confident, never, never more confident of anything in my life, um, of spiritual realism-

Steven Bartlett 14:24 Yeah.

Dan Murray-Serter 14:25 ... and what I believe in. And ultimately what I believe in, when I have these, like, fun conversations with people now about spirituality, which is, you know, what do I believe in? I believe in nature. I believe in, um, looking at the beauty of the world and how cycles work, which is science, right? And the way that my ayahuasca experience actually opened my eyes to believing in something spiritual or greater than myself was 90% of my hallucination was observing what happens in nature with cycles, right? Birds, bees, oxygen, air, soil, all of this recycling all the time for a sustainable system, and being like, you know, that is in itself a scientific miracle, but something greater than us that's always happening throughout time.

Steven Bartlett 15:07 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 15:07 Um, it was a real shift for me because A, I overcame my depression from that, B, I suddenly believed in something, even if that something is nature. And when people are like ... And I get this from Christians quite often as well, where they're like, you know, "What do you mean you believe in nature? Like, what is that?"

Steven Bartlett 15:24 Yeah.

Dan Murray-Serter 15:24 I'm like, "I mean, it's, it's more believable than a guy that walked on water."

Steven Bartlett 15:27 Yeah. (laughs)

Dan Murray-Serter 15:28 And when they, like, get annoyed, I'm like, "I've got nothing against Jesus. I'm just saying that, like, believing in nature, as ridiculous as does that sound, is a profound belief." And what's important is, it is a belief.

Steven Bartlett 15:40 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 15:40 And having a belief has actually helped me, helped guide me to then work on things like, what are my personal values? You know, which you talked about, you know, mental models.

Steven Bartlett 15:49 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 15:49 What do I say yes to and no to in life?

Steven Bartlett 15:51 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 15:51 Well, you can only figure those things out if you spend time with mental models, first principles, thinking about what things mean to you in life. And then suddenly, other things start to come into flow.

Steven Bartlett 16:02 Mm-hmm. And, and so I really wanna just double down on this ayahuasca experience. What exactly ha- did you do on that experience?

Dan Murray-Serter 16:09 So ayahuasca is essentially, uh, an a- it's completely natural. It's tree sap from the Amazon. Um, and it's been practiced for thousands of years, um, you know, I won't go into like the whole history of psychedelics-

Steven Bartlett 16:20 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 16:20 ... but I could do because I've read a lot about it. Um, the, the reality is it's sacred.

Steven Bartlett 16:26 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 16:26 So all shamans have like a legal license to practice with it. Um, and they ... It's a guided experience. So the most important thing to say to anyone thinking about ayahuasca or whatever, like n- d- it's n- not something you do at home.

Steven Bartlett 16:37 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 16:37 On your own. At all. Ever. Um, you could do that with mushrooms. You can definitely do that with LSD. You definitely do not want to do that with ayahuasca because, um, in my experience, the other psychedelics are a bit like you can have sort of one foot in this world, one foot in that world. And ayahuasca is m- not even in this plane.

Steven Bartlett 16:57 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 16:57 You're just somewhere else. But what's fascinating and very common from people's recollections of ayahuasca trips is you have a spirit guide called Mama Ayahuasca.

Steven Bartlett 17:06 Yeah, yeah.

Dan Murray-Serter 17:06 That's what everyone calls her. Um, and in all of my experience of, of doing it, and I've done it about 12 times now, um, so I almost go back every year ... By the way, it's, it's an incredibly painful experience, um, and it's very difficult to do, and it's not something you look forward to, which is why it's like rocket sh- rocket fuel growth, um, which is why I do it. Because you learn all the things about yourself you don't wanna hear, you don't wanna know, and you confront the worst realities. Um, I've learned more in those weekends that I've done this than, you know, you can learn with therapists and you can learn yourself.

Steven Bartlett 17:37 It's staggering. Everyone says this to me, and it's ... And you know, the, the ... You mentioned a guy called Christian Angermayer.

Dan Murray-Serter 17:42 Yep.

Steven Bartlett 17:43 Context, he runs a company called Atai, which are, are now developing, um, psychedelics as a way to cure treatment-resistant depression. Um, it's really sort of a groundbreaking company. And he sat with me in his, his penthouse just across, across the street, in fact, from where we are now. And he was telling me that you can lit- you unlock the brain by taking these drugs, and you, you d- discover truths about yourself, which in i- in many experiences, which is similar to the one you're describing, will have a permanent lasting transformative impact on the way you see the world, and it like corrects your thinking.

Dan Murray-Serter 18:15 Yep.

Steven Bartlett 18:16 And it's, it's, it's crazy, crazy for a normal person that isn't in this world or doesn't understand this to think that you can take a magic mushroom or a, or a drug or a psy- a psychedelic, whatever you wanna call it ...

Dan Murray-Serter 18:27 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 18:28 ... and overcome grief-

Dan Murray-Serter 18:30 There's a great book by Michael Pollan called, um, How To Change Your Mind.

Steven Bartlett 18:34 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 18:34 And in it, he, uh, he talks about this problem with psychedelics. It's a bit like dreams, right? You're having an ineffable experience-

Steven Bartlett 18:39 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 18:39 ... so to describe it for people is generally quite boring. What I think is more interesting, in a sense, is to discuss the outcomes that I've, I've got from it. Um, so the first time, uh, you know, very quickly, because you asked, the experience was... The hallucinogenic experience, like I said, was watching the cycles of the Earth develop.

Steven Bartlett 18:59 And were you conscious?

Dan Murray-Serter 19:00 Right. So-

Steven Bartlett 19:00 'Cause for people who haven't done it-

Dan Murray-Serter 19:01 ... yes.

Steven Bartlett 19:01 ... you put it in your mouth-

Dan Murray-Serter 19:02 S- so, y- you drink it. It takes about an hour for me.

Steven Bartlett 19:04 Fluid?

Dan Murray-Serter 19:04 You lie down in the pitch black. It's fluid.

Steven Bartlett 19:06 Yeah.

Dan Murray-Serter 19:07 It's like a shot. It tastes disgusting, but some people like it. You lie back, um, and, and the shamans basically start playing music. And it's a completely guided, facilitated experience with them. If you're having problems, they come over, they help you. If you need to be taken out the room, they'll look after you. It's like... You know, it's a busy night.

Steven Bartlett 19:21 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 19:22 There's noises. You... Like, a lot of people throw up. How's this for irony? I didn't throw up for my first 10 times. Which everyone was like, "That's super weird." I was like, "Yeah, especially considering my history-"

Steven Bartlett 19:31 (laughs)

Dan Murray-Serter 19:31 "... really bizarre." Um, but the, um, the experience I saw was the one I needed, and there's a really deep, insightful experience you get from psychedelics, which you can often go in wanting a thing, but it isn't what you need. And in this experience, what I wanted was to see my dad and to connect with my dad, but it isn't what I got. What I got was, um, a vision of understanding how everything in this Earth is living in a cycle, like a beautiful miracle. And so, it was less about, like, seeing micro things and seeing macro things being in it. If it's taking me to a place I don't wanna go and a door I'm not ready to open, you can negotiate. You can actually say, "I'm not ready for that yet." And sometimes, it'll push you and say, "Open it anyway." But sometimes, it will actually listen to you and let you go sort of back into your body. So, it is a really fascinating, um, experience. And what I'd say about it is, it's the number one most important thing I've ever done in my life, um, and especially because it's not pleasant. Um, the first time I did it was, you know, the m- single most life-changing moment of my life. Uh, not only got over my depression. You know, I went and spent the whole day with my mum the next day, explained everything that I'd experienced. Um, you know, not a mum's favorite chat, hearing your son talk about psychedelics, but certainly is in context of, like, helping me get over something she was aware I was suffering from.

Steven Bartlett 20:53 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 20:53 Um, mm, the single greatest lesson I've learned in ayahuasca is about gratitude. So, I was going through a period. I think I was 30, potentially, so this was a few years later. And, uh, things were going well at the time. So, my attitude, my mindset was, "I want this, I want that." Right? What's your intention going in? "Well, I want this, I want that." That's, like, how you answer it, because you're not enlightened enough to understand the-

Steven Bartlett 21:17 Bringing in the psychedelic experience, right?

Dan Murray-Serter 21:18 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 21:18 Yeah.

Dan Murray-Serter 21:18 And you can write it down and, and come back to it and be like, "That was what I was looking for in this journey." Um, but actually, the lesson I learned... So, I was asking her, "How can I 10X what I do? How can I be more? How can I become better? How can I have more impact?" You know, me, me, me, me, me. All these questions. Um, I was instead transported to, um, uh, like, basically, I'm not sure where in the world, but a very poor part of the world, where there was this, like, kid, like, begging in the street, basically. And I, like, became that kid, and I became this person, like, trying to get water for his family and having to walk miles for it. Um, 50% of my whole entire psychedelic experience that night was literally walking, like, a mile in this boy's shoes. Um, it... This lesson sort of came to me about, you know, it isn't always about what you want, and it isn't always about, like, you know, asking for more. It's actually about having gratitude for what you have. And when you have enough gratitude for what you already have, you will unlock the path to more.

Steven Bartlett 22:21 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 22:22 Um, you know, there's this thing that I've learned as well, which is when you go into experiences, it's helpful to have a totem, right? So I carry a different stone in for each experience, and I have these stones at home. Anyway, I have this stone by the side of my bed, um, and every single morning that I wake up, the first thing I see is this stone. L- literally just a pile of crap stone. But the point is, it's imbued with this message for me.

Steven Bartlett 22:43 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 22:43 And I wake up every day, and I'm grateful for having running water in my bathroom there. And that is, like, an unbelievably poetic and powerful way to li- live your life past an experience, to wake up in Camden Town, in London, being, you know, so fortunate like I am, but with a, a real, genuine reminder-

Steven Bartlett 23:03 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 23:03 ... of gratitude, as opposed to, like, waking up groggy and being like, "Hey, I'm grateful for waking up today." This is like it means something to me.

Steven Bartlett 23:09 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 23:09 So, these little triggers and shifts, they emotionally change something in you. But I've learned a lesson the hard way through ayahuasca as well, which is just because you're learning lessons... This is like all wisdom, right? Doesn't matter whether you get it from ayahuasca or you get it from, you know, your Instagram posts.

Steven Bartlett 23:25 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 23:25 You can read it, and it can resonate, and you can be like, "Wow, that's powerful." Without action, it means nothing.

Steven Bartlett 23:31 Of course.

Dan Murray-Serter 23:31 So if you don't create, then, the steps to be better based on what you learned, you're wasting a very powerful weekend and painful weekend. Um, I've been guilty of that too. I've learned, I've learned lessons, um, that I haven't necessarily followed through with. Um, you know, and, and sometimes it's because they take bravery, and I feel like I'm not ready for that bravery yet.

Steven Bartlett 23:54 Yeah.

Dan Murray-Serter 23:54 And so, it's really-

Steven Bartlett 23:54 We were talking about this the other day-

Dan Murray-Serter 23:55 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 23:55 ... w- you know, with the-

Dan Murray-Serter 23:57 E- exactly.

Steven Bartlett 23:57 ... with personal branding.

Dan Murray-Serter 23:58 Exactly.

Steven Bartlett 23:58 I

Steven Bartlett 23:59 actually... Uh, that's actually a good segue onto that topic as well, 'cause it's something that, that I know for a fact a lot of people struggle with in different forms. And, um, but in... but also specifically with this topic, which is putting yourself out there on the internet.

Dan Murray-Serter 24:13 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 24:14 Um, I know this because a lot of people have told me, but also because I've been there.

Dan Murray-Serter 24:19 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 24:19 Right? So, let's... If we rewind a couple years of my own life, a guy called Ash Jones says to me, "You should make a YouTube channel."I dismissed the idea, obviously, because I'm like, "Well, people are gonna think that I think I'm M- M- Mahatma Gandhi." Like, or, like, people are gonna think that I think I'm a genius, or that I think I have all the answers, so I'm not doing that. Eventually, after two years, he sits me down in this room, and it took about eight or nine hours for us to shoot a two-minute video, because I couldn't speak. I- I- I was self-conscious and all of these things. And I was plagued by that thought that my friends back home who knew me in school will think, "Oh, Steve's a dickhead. He's changed. What's he doing? Who does he think he is?" And that almost imprisoned me. It almost stopped me from doing the thing that actually liberated me, made me the most fulfilled I've ever been, and by allowing me to be my, like, truest self. And in fact, what I wanted to do was be true to myself. And, um, it felt like I was worried that people would think I was, um, being something I wasn't or trying to fake myself. And so I- I guess the question that I have for you is, you know a lot of stuff, but you've not... You know, you've got a great podcast, Secret Leaders. You've got a new podcast as well, which is centered around your brand, Hyt. Um, you've struggled to put yourself out there on the internet and social media. Can you explain why?

Dan Murray-Serter 25:39 Yes. Oh, I think that's actually a good question, Steve. Um, but also because we connect a lot on this, right?

Steven Bartlett 25:44 Yeah.

Dan Murray-Serter 25:44 So you're like my unofficial mentor with a few voice notes-

Steven Bartlett 25:46 (laughs)

Dan Murray-Serter 25:47 ... where I'm like, "He's got a fucking point."

Steven Bartlett 25:48 Yeah (laughs) .

Dan Murray-Serter 25:50 Um, so, you know, it's... I guess I'll put it a slightly different way. You know, I was listening to one of your early... But you sent me this actually, your podcast with- with him. Sorry, what was his name?

Steven Bartlett 25:59 Ash Jones.

Dan Murray-Serter 26:00 Yeah, Ash. Yeah, so you- you-

Steven Bartlett 26:01 Oh, yeah, conversations with him are amazing.

Dan Murray-Serter 26:01 You told me to listen to an episode, which I did, and, you know, he was talking about the early days of Social Chain.

Steven Bartlett 26:05 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 26:06 You learned early that you, you were bringing in most of the revenue, like Steve was bringing in most of the revenue.

Steven Bartlett 26:11 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 26:11 Therefore, the business decision made lots of sense to center that around you.

Steven Bartlett 26:14 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 26:15 I think when you're doing B2B, that makes loads of sense. The challenge I have is, um, my products are B2C, right? They're for consumers.

Steven Bartlett 26:23 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 26:23 Um, putting as much time and effort and thought and energy into promoting myself is- is mental energy I should be putting into the brand.

Steven Bartlett 26:31 Yeah.

Dan Murray-Serter 26:32 Um, you know, there is, I think, uh, probably a reasonable compromise and also, like all things, this is a bit of a developing scenario. However, um, you know, it's a very fair thing to say that I'm not the product. This is the product. Um, inside my company, we could all agree that that is, like, broadly true, right? We're selling a thing, we're not selling me. Whereas, you know, going through exactly the same experience at Social Chain, you guys, if you weren't in the room, you guys would have come to the same conclusion, which is Steve's the greatest, like, part of the funnel here.

Steven Bartlett 27:01 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 27:01 So, we as a company succeed when Steve's succeeding, so that's the kind of marketing funnel we should back. So, you know, I can see you sort of smi- smirking at me, because this is the story I tell myself.

Steven Bartlett 27:11 Ah, okay, fine.

Narrator 27:12 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 27:12 'Cause I was like, this doesn't make-

Dan Murray-Serter 27:13 This is the story.

Steven Bartlett 27:14 ... a ton of sense, right? Yeah, yeah.

Dan Murray-Serter 27:15 Right? Right? This is the story that I tell myself.

Steven Bartlett 27:16 Fine.

Dan Murray-Serter 27:16 It doesn't mean that it's true. Um, you know, and then there's another question about platforms, right? So, um, you know, this isn't a mental health condition, um, but I do have imposter syndrome.

Steven Bartlett 27:27 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 27:28 And, you know, we've talked about this in the past as well, but, um, you know, the first business that I scaled, uh, was Grable.

Steven Bartlett 27:36 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 27:36 And which is when we first met.

Steven Bartlett 27:37 Yes.

Dan Murray-Serter 27:38 Um, and, you know, that- that was me going into technology and fashion having had no experience previously. I was in advertising before. Um, and I love changing industries, and I love challenging myself to completely wipe the slate cle- clean and do something new. But, it comes with imposter syndrome. That's what I've learned about myself, right? I'm- I'm full of the internal monologue of, "I'm not good enough, no one cares what I think, and I don't deserve to be doing this. It's someone else's dream."

Steven Bartlett 28:03 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 28:03 Um, that doesn't change, right? In me. That- that- that voice is still there. Um, however, you know, a really good thing if you're aware, if you're consciously aware of your limitations, especially like some of your mental frailties, creating steps to improve those things are helpful. So, with Hyt, the first thing I did just over 100 weeks ago was start a newsletter.

Steven Bartlett 28:25 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 28:25 Because I was like, "I'm gonna get imposter syndrome so badly in a space of neuroscience and nutrition. I'm not a neuroscientist or a nutrition. Like, it's gonna be awful for me." So, I'm gonna write a newsletter every week.

Steven Bartlett 28:38 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 28:38 And I'm gonna read a science paper every week, and I am going to distill that into three minutes because when you read something, you learn it once, and when you share it, you learn it twice. So the process of literally rewriting this was creating neural pathways and embedding the information into my brain. So I was like, "In 100 weeks..." It's actually what I told myself, and it's just been 101 now. Um, "In 100 weeks, I won't be a neuroscientist or a nutritionist, but I will have read over 100 science papers, and I'll know what science says is good for your brain according to journals, experts, et cetera," which will be an amazing step to create, an amazing habit to build, to get over my own mental frailties and my own story of imposter syndrome. So, when it comes to social media, I feel like I've got the same thing, which is like, um, when my last company failed, um, I didn't know what I was gonna do next. I looked at, like, my social media platforms and was like, you know, "Wh- where am I gonna spend time rather than where am I gonna waste time ultimately," right? 'Cause you can get caught up in this silly game and then thinking personal branding, "Where do I feel comfortable? That would be a good place to start." And I chose LinkedIn. And the reason I chose LinkedIn was because I told myself a story which I completely believe to be true anyway, um, which is, whatever I do next, I- I'm a serial entrepreneur, right? As in, I'm fine not having any money, I'm fine working for other people for free, doing all these things, but I'm always gonna start something else myself again. So, if I know that to be true, it means I'm always gonna hire people. And what do really smart and impressive people want from their boss? They wanna know who they're working for. They wanna know what your values are. They wanna know what you believe in. They wanna know what kind of things you share. And so I was like, LinkedIn is the only place that could credibly do that for me, right?

Steven Bartlett 30:12 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 30:12 And I actually went from, I mean, it's not, you know, that impressive, but I went from like 3,000 followers or something to almost 25,000 on the basis of, and as you know, there's no putting money behind anything on LinkedIn or anything-

Steven Bartlett 30:24 (laughs)

Dan Murray-Serter 30:24 ... literally just by being myself.... by writing about how I'd failed, by writing about what I was working on next, by working ... And, and also all of the things when you're ... You know, writing about what you're working on next is such a difficult thing to do, because it's probably going to fail as well. And it did, you know, before Heights, um, with three iterations of things that I was publicly putting out there and getting feedback on and stuff that we had to kill because it didn't have legs. Um, it's a horrible time for an entrepreneur in between, or it can be certainly, in between people like, "What do you do?" And your identity is in flux. And you know, like-

Steven Bartlett 30:56 Yeah.

Dan Murray-Serter 30:56 ... do I talk about this new thing that I've just discovered that might not be a thing in a month?

Steven Bartlett 31:00 You're preaching to the choir here, Dan. (laughs)

Dan Murray-Serter 31:01 I know, right? Exact- exactly. But it's such a complicated answer-

Steven Bartlett 31:04 Yeah. Yeah.

Dan Murray-Serter 31:04 ... to give in the now.

Steven Bartlett 31:06 Yeah.

Dan Murray-Serter 31:06 Um, so anyway, like on the personal brand thing, like I decided LinkedIn was a place I felt comfortable because I can be my authentic self, because I am an entrepreneur, because I am someone who is willing to go big and fail and, like, actually figure out why and talk about why. And I think this stuff is so important, um, for entrepreneurs to connect openly and honestly, 'cause I absolutely hate, and the one thing I will not miss about networking events is, like, going to them and everyone talking about them killing it. You know, that is literally poison in our society. It's nonsense. So everyone just talking about how they're killing it stops people from saying, "Actually, you know, shit's really hard right now. This is the problem I'm dealing with, um, and this is, like, how it's making me feel." If you're able to say that to another entrepreneur because you've created the container and the environment to be comfortable to do so, that person can probably help you.

Steven Bartlett 31:56 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 31:56 And if you are stuck with the narrative that everything's going amazingly all the time and that's all you're telling people, no one can help you figure it out-

Steven Bartlett 32:05 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 32:05 ... when you actually could do with the help. You know, there's the other thing, going slightly off piste, sorry, but, you know, my biggest bugbear on entrepreneurship is stealth mode. I think stealth mode is, like, the most stupid thing that an entrepreneur can claim to be in full stop, because as you know, ideas are worthless, execution is everything.

Steven Bartlett 32:23 Sure.

Dan Murray-Serter 32:23 Anyone that's ever built a business knows how hard it is.

Steven Bartlett 32:26 What's stealth mode?

Dan Murray-Serter 32:26 Stealth mode is when people say like, working on a new business in finance, in stealth mode. Right? I'd love to tell you-

Steven Bartlett 32:30 Does that mean not telling anybody?

Dan Murray-Serter 32:31 Yeah. I'd love to tell you what my startup is, but it's so amazing you'll steal it, so I'm not gonna tell you.

Steven Bartlett 32:35 Ugh, god. Ugh. (laughs)

Dan Murray-Serter 32:36 Mate, all the time. All the time.

Steven Bartlett 32:39 Makes no sense.

Dan Murray-Serter 32:39 So many people do it, and, and I, I, I give the most direct feedback on LinkedIn, probably very similar to you, like loads of people ask for my help for loads of things all the time, and if I ever see stealth mode on their thing, I'm like, "I don't talk to anyone in stealth mode, FYI."

Steven Bartlett 32:52 Stealth mode is such a stupid thing, because it's, it's ... (sighs) it's like h- h- how do I describe the idea?

Dan Murray-Serter 32:58 It's like saying, "I'm afraid of feedback."

Steven Bartlett 32:59 But it's, yeah, but it's also like saying, "I've got something that I can't tell you."

Dan Murray-Serter 33:05 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 33:05 Why did you tell me you had something? (laughs)

Dan Murray-Serter 33:07 I know.

Steven Bartlett 33:08 Do you know what I mean?

Dan Murray-Serter 33:08 I know. Just don't start the conversation with me.

Steven Bartlett 33:09 You're atten-

Dan Murray-Serter 33:09 I'm a curious person. I'm gonna ask you what it is.

Steven Bartlett 33:11 If you're attention-seeking, but you know (laughs) you're attention-seeking but you don't want to tell. You know, it's like, it's a weird form of like, I don't know, flirtation? I don't know. Um, but n- I wanna get to this point about why you ... We had this conversation-

Dan Murray-Serter 33:23 Yeah, sure.

Steven Bartlett 33:23 ... a couple, like a week or two ago-

Dan Murray-Serter 33:24 Yep.

Steven Bartlett 33:25 ... about Instagram and making videos of yourself and putting your ideas out there.

Dan Murray-Serter 33:29 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 33:29 What is it that's stopping you doing that? You talked about imposter syndrome.

Dan Murray-Serter 33:32 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 33:32 I guess that kind of relates to the business side of things more. What's stopping you going on Instagram, putting a video on your Instagram and saying, "This is what I think, these are my ideas. Comment below if you agree"?

Dan Murray-Serter 33:43 Yeah. Your, it's a great question. Um, so I guess as a starting point, like it's worth saying that I think a very healthy way to approach stuff like this in your life is to, to choose a place, build confidence, and go on from there.

Steven Bartlett 33:56 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 33:56 So I feel like that's what I did with LinkedIn. I understood that that's the place where I'd feel le- least impostery, and so I'd start there. Now, you know, I picked up on, on Twitter, I mean, Twitter is like my favorite platform. It's the one I spend probably the most time on. Um, but, you know, it's, it's got a very short half-life, so it's kind of impossible to, to consistently come up with gems. Um, Instagram, you know, to me was this place where just beautiful people live, young beautiful people live, and that's all anyone's interested in. And that's not really my world, right? I'm interested in challenge, I'm interested in mental health, I'm interested in stories. Um, and I ... Interesting that I wasn't finding that on Instagram. So I was like, "What am I doing? I don't really belong in this place at all." Um, I'd say like 100% like inspired by the way that you've approached your Instagram, like sharing insights, because insights and like distilling my thoughts into something and writing them down, that is something that I do.

Steven Bartlett 34:51 Hm.

Dan Murray-Serter 34:51 I just don't publish them.

Steven Bartlett 34:52 Hm.

Dan Murray-Serter 34:52 Or I was on LinkedIn. So actually, like what I've now started doing on Instagram is like literally taking a leaf out of your book-

Steven Bartlett 34:58 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 34:58 ... after our chat-

Steven Bartlett 34:59 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 34:59 ... which is going through some of my high-performing LinkedIn posts that, you know, might have got 1 or 2,000 likes and being like, "If it was popular there-

Steven Bartlett 35:06 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 35:06 ... I guess it'll be popular here. Let's have a go." And trying to get over it now, slowly but surely. But it's this constant belief that no one wants to hear what I have to say.

Steven Bartlett 35:15 Yes.

Dan Murray-Serter 35:16 Of course.

Steven Bartlett 35:16 And that's what I was getting at. And like where does ... And what are the forces that are at play which are making it feel like some, like s- psychological discomfort if you are to s- tell the world what you think on Instagram, let's say? What, in your mind, what are, is it friends back home? Is it this particular person? Sometimes I can think-

Dan Murray-Serter 35:37 It's fascinating.

Steven Bartlett 35:37 ... of a particular person-

Dan Murray-Serter 35:39 Yeah, mate.

Steven Bartlett 35:39 ... and I can think, "That person from four years ago is gonna think I'm a dick." (laughs)

Dan Murray-Serter 35:43 100%. Dude, like the thing that I've learned, which is so interesting, is 90% of my fear of what people will think is based on my school friends.

Steven Bartlett 35:52 Yeah, (laughs) same. (laughs)

Dan Murray-Serter 35:53 Who like-

Steven Bartlett 35:54 Yeah.

Dan Murray-Serter 35:54 You know, I only speak to a bunch of them now. You know, identity is such an interesting thing, and you know, you have it when you're ... Um, you'll be going through it right now, and I empathize, right? You're not Steve from Social Chain anymore.

Steven Bartlett 36:05 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 36:05 Right? And that's, you know, for ages I was Dan from Gravel, now I'm Dan from Heights. Um, you know, people do that. And that's fine, but it's important you don't overcompensate that identity for yourself-

Steven Bartlett 36:16 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 36:16 ... attached to your business, because we're all on a path and we're gonna go through a journey. And the journey, the stories are gonna change. And when you over attach yourself to a particular part of the journey is where you can find struggle. Um, that's ... Go on.

Steven Bartlett 36:29 And you, on that point, you build your life around that identity, so your friends, the m- your m- your music, your interests. And so you, you would've collected, uh, through your life a bunch of people who know Dan as this.

Dan Murray-Serter 36:41 Exactly.

Steven Bartlett 36:41 And you're gonna have to shed some of them potentially.

Dan Murray-Serter 36:44 Yep.

Steven Bartlett 36:44 By, by stepping into your new identity.

Dan Murray-Serter 36:46 100%.

Steven Bartlett 36:46 And that's a, I guess a conflict or a not easy-

Dan Murray-Serter 36:48 Oh, 100%. And it's difficult, right? But as you grow, you edit.

Steven Bartlett 36:51 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 36:52 And, you know, you need to really consider who you're editing out of your life and who you're welcoming into your life.

Steven Bartlett 36:57 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 36:57 And I think, you know, there's the- the practical reality that what was good for you five years ago is no good for you right now. And frankly, you know, the highest leverage decision you can make ... I'm still terrible at this, by the way-

Steven Bartlett 37:09 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 37:09 Um, but the highest leverage decision you can make is picking what to say no to.

Steven Bartlett 37:13 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 37:14 And the hardest thing you can do is say no to opportunities that you would definitely say yes to.

Steven Bartlett 37:18 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 37:18 So, you know, that includes friends. That includes saying, "I don't have time for this friend anymore or this identity, this part of my identity anymore, even though I like it or I like them or I like all their stuff." Because frankly, there's-

Steven Bartlett 37:33 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 37:33 ... you know, this shedding almost that we do as human beings. Um, you know, the, you know in reptile form, it's very physical, right? They're literally shedding a skin. But as humans, you don't see this change, but it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. And we go in these cycles, and I think a lot of, you know, mental health conditioning is attached to our holding onto the past and refusing to sort of embrace the future. And that's why, you know, I think it's really important to set out a clear understanding of your purpose.

Steven Bartlett 38:03 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 38:04 A clear understanding of the things you will say no to and won't say no to, and acknowledging that that changes, right? So I do an exercise like this every year.

Steven Bartlett 38:11 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 38:11 Um, and it takes about f- five or six hours, and I do it with my wife. It's like a whole massive, like, briefing document essentially on your vision, your purpose, your friends, like, all of the stuff. Um, spending the time thoughtfully thinking about these things, which people do not do enough of-

Steven Bartlett 38:25 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 38:26 ... is so important because if you're not reflective and you're not spending time thinking, manifesting essentially who you want to be in the future, then I think you're gonna, uh, miss a massive opportunity to grow. Um, you know, I ... Because, you know, I work in the brain space now, in- in brain care, neuroscience, you call that neuroplasticity, right? It's this idea that the brain will grow. It's plastic, and it's essentially changing in whatever direction you choose to take it in. If you are-

Steven Bartlett 38:55 Like Episode 53 of Chapter 2. There's-

Dan Murray-Serter 38:57 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 38:57 We talked about this on the last, uh, episode, so it's very relevant.

Dan Murray-Serter 39:00 Oh, really? Okay fine.

Steven Bartlett 39:01 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dan Murray-Serter 39:01 So neuroplasticity is that. Um, if you are into spirituality like I am, then it's called manifestation, right?

Steven Bartlett 39:08 Right.

Dan Murray-Serter 39:08 It's spending the time thinking about what you're gonna do and how you're gonna get there. And then to put it into, like, super business terms, if you're into business, it's called planning and execution.

Steven Bartlett 39:17 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 39:18 So there are these different ways to articulate the same point. But the point is, if you just spend your days going, um, bit by bit, not really thinking about where you're gonna go and what it means to you, it'd be very hard for you to make good decisions. And frankly, um, and this I guess actually speaking like personal branding, a more popular post I did recently was about stamina and the things I've learned about rest, which is that, as a founder and a CEO, you learn that you're not paid for your stamina, right?

Steven Bartlett 39:47 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 39:47 You pay-

Steven Bartlett 39:48 I saw that post.

Dan Murray-Serter 39:48 Yeah. You pay Mo Gawdat for ... Uh, sorry, not Mo Gawdat. Mo Farah for his stamina, right? He's got to run a fucking 10K. That's stamina, right? That's what athletes are paid for. I'm paid for my decision making. People invest in me and they invest in Heights for my decision-making abilities. And overworking, giving yourself burnout, not taking space to rest, not listening to what you know to be true, and spending the time planning?

Steven Bartlett 40:15 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 40:15 That's bad decision making.

Steven Bartlett 40:16 Yeah.

Dan Murray-Serter 40:17 Um, if you can't do those things for your own body, you know, it's like what I said is if you can't be the CEO of your body, you do not earn the right to be the CEO of your company. You got to, you've got to look after your mental state and your physical body first by thinking and finding the space, carving out the space to think, "What does good decisions look like that fit my purpose and where I'm looking to go?" And if you can do that and you can answer those things, you actually start to learn things, start to add up.

Steven Bartlett 40:45 And you ... And it ... And that kind of segues back to the initial tweet where you talked about depression, anxiety, burnout, and insomnia. So let's talk about burnout then.

Dan Murray-Serter 40:54 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 40:54 It's a very, um, a very popular topic. I actually think one of the most listened to episode of this podcast was the top ... was the one about burnout-

Dan Murray-Serter 41:03 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 41:03 ... um, and us being a burnout generation and how we've kind of glamorized it. We're optimizing our lives so we can fill it with more things to do. Did you burn out? How did you burn out? And do you understand why you burnt out?

Dan Murray-Serter 41:14 100%. Um, you know, uh, Gary Vee is a very clever man, um, very intelligent. But, you know, he has created a negative impact on society that he would probably be upset about, because he seems to be a lovely man that really deeply cares about stuff from what I can see.

Steven Bartlett 41:29 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 41:30 I believe his authenticity, but he has created hustle culture and hustle porn.

Steven Bartlett 41:36 And you know what? I met Gary Vee, had him on this podcast, and you're right I think in every, um, depiction of him there. He's a genuinely authentic person. You meet him and think, "You are who I thought you were online." Um, and you're completely right in the sense that because he's being his authentic self, which we can't h- you know, uh, um, we can't criticize anyone for being. In fact, that's what we tell everyone to be, "Be yourself and- and share, you know, sh- and be willing to share it with the world." The issue I think is you're pointing out is his lack of appreciation that ... about nuance and that everyone is fundamentally different and everyone's not Gary Vee. I had that problem too when I started. I couldn't understand why people weren't sacrificing their lives to build businesses and working till 4:00 AM in the morning and sleeping under the desk. I thought everyone that wasn't doing that was both an idiot and inferior.

Dan Murray-Serter 42:29 And wasting their time.

Steven Bartlett 42:30 And wasting their time.

Dan Murray-Serter 42:31 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 42:31 And they would never be happy-

Dan Murray-Serter 42:32 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 42:32 ... because for as far as Steve Bartlett's brain could tell him-

Dan Murray-Serter 42:36 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 42:36 ... that was happiness.

Dan Murray-Serter 42:37 Yeah, and because, like, all of the pain that you suffer is part of, part of the game.

Steven Bartlett 42:41 Yeah.

Dan Murray-Serter 42:41 And-

Steven Bartlett 42:41 Yeah.

Dan Murray-Serter 42:42 But that stuff isn't ... This is the thing, right? That stuff isn't not true. You do have to grow.

Steven Bartlett 42:47 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 42:47 Growth is painful and you will have sleepless nights and all the other bits and pieces. That is part of the parcel. The thing where we confuse this is it's all mutually exclusive-

Steven Bartlett 42:55 Sure.

Dan Murray-Serter 42:55 ... AKA my identity has to be that and only that because that's how Gary Vee and, like, a few other geniuses in society have got to the top of their games. But-Here's the thing. Like, there's- there's two reasons why I had burnout last time. The first was because I wasn't happy on what I was working, and running a startup can feel a bit like a cage sometimes. So, uh, unless you're really sure, I say this with entrepreneurs all the time, "Are you sure this is the company you wanna build? 'Cause if it's not, you're gonna be doing it anyway. And then you are your own bird keeper. You have locked yourself in a cage.""

Steven Bartlett 43:30 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 43:30 And that's what I did with Grabble. I got lucky. I found a niche, an opportunity. It grew exponentially really quickly, millions of downloads, had a million monthly active users in our end. We had like a, you know, even acquisition that failed, sadly, but you know, would have made us millionaires. It was a real journey with that company.

Steven Bartlett 43:49 It was fashion for Tinder, basically.

Dan Murray-Serter 43:51 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 43:51 Tinder for fashion.

Dan Murray-Serter 43:52 Tinder for fashion, exactly. And it was a real, it was a real exciting journey. But at no point did I enjoy it, um, really.

Steven Bartlett 43:58 Really?

Dan Murray-Serter 43:58 Like, there's a... Not at no point. My ego enjoyed it, right?

Steven Bartlett 44:01 Sure.

Dan Murray-Serter 44:01 And we won loads of awards, um, you know, we won the award we wanted. Like, we were like, "We just wanna be written about in Tech Crunch," and all this stuff. And in 2017, we won Best Mobile Startup in Europe over Depop at the Tech Crunch Europas. We didn't even turn up to that awards to take that award, 'cause I was having such a bad time mentally. Um, I didn't even go to the awards u- uh, ceremony. My friend picked up that trophy and took a photo on our behalf. I was sitting at home drinking whiskey, feeling really terrible about myself. Um...

Steven Bartlett 44:28 Why?

Dan Murray-Serter 44:30 Because that was living someone else's dream. I didn't care about fashion. Um...

Steven Bartlett 44:35 What was the force that made you live someone else's dream?

Dan Murray-Serter 44:37 Yeah. Good question. Uh, a bit of serendipity in the sense of, um, you know, uh, listening to users, going on a bit of a journey and the product sort of developing, and then it getting, catching fire before you really have an opportunity to stop and say, "No, that's not ready for me."

Steven Bartlett 44:53 It's like you were getting dragged, you weren't pulling. Yeah.

Dan Murray-Serter 44:55 A bit.

Steven Bartlett 44:56 Yeah.

Dan Murray-Serter 44:56 A bit. But then at the same time, like, you know, ev- like everyone, I'm scared of failure. So I didn't wanna be a failure, so I wanted to make it work. And, you know, by hook or by crook, I was willing to, like, push really hard to make it work. And, you know, I look back on my time with Grabble, and other than, like, working hard, I was working against my purpose, and I could feel it. And when people asked me, I'm actually, like, as you know, always, to my detriment, honest.

Steven Bartlett 45:18 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 45:18 So, I would tell people, including the wrong people, including investors, that, you know, my heart really isn't in it, and like, all this stuff. Because, you know, all I had left for authenticity was to be honest in these conversations with other people.

Steven Bartlett 45:32 You know, I've just finished writing my book, um, not trying to plug it, although Happy Sexy Millionaires-

Dan Murray-Serter 45:36 Happy Sexy Millionaire, available in all bookshops.

Steven Bartlett 45:37 Yeah, it's, uh, no, it's on pre-order. Um, (laughs) but I- there's a chapter in there where I really investigate burnout, and the reason, it's, it's topics like self-awareness and burnout, which we haven't quite yet properly defined. Everyone throws it out there on Instagram, "Oh, I'm feeling burnt out," but nobody's, like, gone down the rabbit hole to figure out the innate causes or the psychological or social causes of it. So I just wanted to, like, go as far down as I could go. And I tend to believe the depth that I've got to with my thinking and the research that I've done is that you typically get, um, you, you stand a higher chance of burnout in situations where you are extrinsically motivated, um, to do X activity. Because I view my life, and I think about all the things that I do intrinsically, like walking my... I've never got walk- burnt out walking my dog or playing with my dog, you know?

Dan Murray-Serter 46:23 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 46:23 I've never got burnt out, um, l- like, reading books that I love and those kinds of things. But when it comes to getting paid to do something that I don't f- intrinsically enjoy doing, burnout is almost inevitable at some point.

Dan Murray-Serter 46:39 100%, right.

Steven Bartlett 46:40 Not just burnout, but then my, but then motivation. When I started looking at motivation and the spectrum it sits on of, on one end being totally, uh, extrinsic, you're literally doing it because you're forced to, and then on the other end, doing it because it's an innate passion, an intrinsic passion, and all of the things on this end, where you're, you're paid and you're forced to, burnout seems to show up. And on the other hand, when it's a, it's intrinsic, and you love it, and you're doing it for the sake of doing it, I never get burnt out and my motivation seems to last the course of time. So, I wa- I wanted to see if that resonates with you at all.

Dan Murray-Serter 47:10 Yeah. But let me tell you something else that's interesting that I'm, I'm consciously aware because I've had burnout. And by the way, my experience of it was, you know, I just couldn't get out of bed for a month.

Steven Bartlett 47:18 Really?

Dan Murray-Serter 47:18 Um, that was it. I basically just stayed in bed and I just, like, I couldn't face going to the office. I couldn't face leaving my bed, basically.

Steven Bartlett 47:24 You've got a team in the office-

Dan Murray-Serter 47:26 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 47:26 ... and you're lying in bed.

Dan Murray-Serter 47:27 Well, I'd got my co-founder, and I was just like, explained that I'd literally... I, I didn't know what it was at the time. I was like, "I think it might be depression." I didn't know what it was, though. This is the thing, I probably didn't even say those words.

Steven Bartlett 47:35 Oh, how did it feel?

Dan Murray-Serter 47:36 Um, just like, just no energy whatsoever. Just like no, no ability... A bit like when I had coronavirus, to be honest. Just like zonked. Um, not, and, and nothing I was doing was able to make me feel like I was getting the energy. But I think the reason why as well was, um, again, I, like, I'm a helpful guy. I really believe in my greatest superpower, full stop, is connecting people, right? I've got infinite numbers of ways that I've connected people. Eight people have got married that I've introduced. You know, they say three in heaven, but, you know, I don't quite believe in heaven, so.

Steven Bartlett 48:06 (laughs)

Dan Murray-Serter 48:06 It's irrelevant. But, point being, um, you know, so many co-founders introduced. Like, I really just believe in the serendipity of creating, uh, you know, moments where you know that person and that person just should have that chat.

Steven Bartlett 48:19 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 48:19 And I force it to happen. So, because of that, because I really believe in serendipity as well, um, I do try and say yes to people and help them out. So, what was happening to me at Grabble was, we were flying, we were like number one in the App Store and all this stuff, so the inbounds start coming like thick and fast, right? And so I was like, "I can't do this the way I was doing it, which is like all over the place. I'll go to Old Street at 6:00 AM every single Tuesday and Wednesday, um, and between 6:00 and 9:00, I'll do like sessions, right? If you come meet me between that time in like your 45-minute slot, I'll fit you in." And then Tuesday and Wednesday became Tuesday to Thursday. And then before I knew it, I was doing it like almost every single day, trying to be so helpful. And it was great because I, I, I get loads of energy from that, right? Like so much. There's, you know, a great quote of, you know, there's no such thing as altruism 'cause you're ultimately doing it for yourself, and I believe that.

Steven Bartlett 49:10 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 49:12 However, so it's, like, find your motivation and then 10X it. But I overdid it. And so, the result, the net result was, like, one day, I woke up from my alarm trying to do it and I, like, basically couldn't move. And that alarm basically, you know, kept going for the next few days, and I was like, "Nope, I just can't do it. I can't go to work. I can't get out of bed." And it was really, like, it was a really strange time. But the thing that's really interesting to me this time, right? So I analyzed that as partly burnout and I was trying to do too much, too, and, and not spending enough time on myself, not having any rest, not being sensible about my personal space and my life, which was stupid, but the kind of thing you learn the hard way quite often. And then the other thing was obviously, like, I was working on a business that I wasn't very happy and I was having more fun meeting these people and helping, like, make introductions than I was working in my own business. Now with Heights, you know, very consciously aware of the opposite problem to be true. So we just talked about burnout from some of your insights, right? One of my fears from Heights is, you know, I won't see burnout coming, because now I'm living my purpose. Now I am so passionate. I get so much motivation and pleasure from working on Heights that I could do this 24/7, um, and I, I diarize stopping myself, right? I literally put in my diary to stop at, like ... All, all my things, rest, naps, Peloton. Like, all of the things, like, I talked to you earlier about, like, my Shakti mat, meditation, these things are in my diary. Because if it's in my calendar, I'm gonna pay attention to it and I'm gonna respect it.

Steven Bartlett 50:42 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 50:42 And if I don't, I won't respect my own boundaries, because I know that I'm intrinsically a bit of a workaholic. And if I'm passionate, you can't stop me. So I have to stop myself.

Steven Bartlett 50:51 Sure.

Dan Murray-Serter 50:52 Um, knowing, you know, taking preventative measures towards things like burnout if you are happy, um, I think has been a really, like, mature decision that I'm really proud of taking this time round, because it's a bit like the imposter syndrome, right? How am I gonna overcome it? I'll write a newsletter every week. Great, I feel way less like that now. Same thing, burnout. I don't feel like I'm going to get burnout, even though I've been sitting in my bedroom pitching, you know, to investors, like, all of February and March. Like, it's not a great existence because of lockdown.

Steven Bartlett 51:20 And if, if I said to you-

Dan Murray-Serter 51:21 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 51:21 ... "Listen, uh, I, I'm the same, I'm a workaholic and all these things. I'm an entrepreneur, I'm gonna build a big business. Dan, what is the one thing I can do to avoid myself getting burnout?" What would you th- say that is? You would say it's diarizing and scheduling time to do other things, like ... And I had Nir Eyal on this podcast.

Dan Murray-Serter 51:38 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 51:38 And he talked about ... He writes the book Indistractable.

Dan Murray-Serter 51:41 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 51:41 He talks about how he will literally schedule time in his diary to see his, to spend some time with his partner-

Dan Murray-Serter 51:47 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 51:47 ... and take his kids for a walk, and, and those kinds of things. Is that what you're saying? You're saying ...

Dan Murray-Serter 51:52 Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've got, um, I do have, like, a list of habits that I've created for myself. And you know, talking about habit formation, um, terrible error everyone makes is like, "Oh, I'll listen to Dan, I'll do all of these, you know, habits." No, I pick, like, one new one a year.

Steven Bartlett 52:05 Hm.

Dan Murray-Serter 52:06 To be honest with you, my number one mental health hack, full stop, um, that I say to everyone, everyone always asks me my one thing.

Steven Bartlett 52:12 Yeah.

Dan Murray-Serter 52:12 Uh, mine's going for a walk. Um, you know, spending an hour or so walking, if you can do that without being distracted. I mean, it's, I listen to podcasts and audiobooks, but I also go for some where I don't take anything with me and I just go for the walk. Um, that's my number one health hack.

Steven Bartlett 52:26 Right.

Dan Murray-Serter 52:27 Um, because it's, uh, not only good for your brain, but good for your body. And because it puts you into ... There's two things. One, we live in London. Actually, to be honest, like, it gets way worse a rep about rain than, you know, you would think, 'cause I don't go out with a raincoat most days. Um, but even if it's raining, you still go out. And that's a great moment to just be with the elements and accept that, you know, things aren't always perfect. Even the manifestation of rain, you know, is a great moment to just go out and be like, "Things aren't perfect, but I owe it to myself for my own rest and for my own space to do this today."

Steven Bartlett 52:58 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 52:59 Um, and the other reason, honestly, is because, on average, I get to listen to about 50 books a year just by doing that one thing.

Steven Bartlett 53:05 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 53:05 So, as someone who's, like, a lifelong learner and happiest when I'm learning, the amount of books that I've devoured by st- tacking that, you know, habit onto my daily walk has been the fastest way to grow.

Steven Bartlett 53:16 Way,

Steven Bartlett 53:17 way, way up. Yeah. And so we talked about burnout there. The next thing, so, and that's, that was during your time at Grabble.

Dan Murray-Serter 53:22 Hm.

Steven Bartlett 53:22 The next thing from that tweet was anxiety.

Dan Murray-Serter 53:25 Yeah, so the anxiety and, and insomnia were completely linked with each other. So, a really, really fascinating experience. To me, the most interesting of all of them, really. Because at the time I got an- so, at the time I got insomnia, and this is when anxiety starts to build, 'cause anxiety does go with insomnia very well, because, uh, you start to get scared of getting sleep, which builds anxiety. You can't really sleep when you've got anxiety, so it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy, like, every single night. So I had insomnia for six months. And my symptoms were, I'd go to sleep at midnight, but I'd wake up at 2:00 AM. And at 2:00 AM I was wide awake and there was no going back to sleep whatsoever, no matter what I did. So, this was at a time when business was going well, I was pretty happy in life, I was getting married. Um, yes, my dad had passed away, but my mum had just recovered from cancer, so I'd had, like, the whole fear of her l- and she's already had it before and recovered once, so very unlikely to rec- recover the second time. But she had ... I have a roof over my head, I practiced gratitude. You know, like, I am just that archetypal dickhead that's just too smug for the world.

Steven Bartlett 54:29 (laughs)

Dan Murray-Serter 54:30 And I just suddenly couldn't sleep. And I was like, "I don't understand. Like, I have everything that I wanted, and I'm not, I don't even want much. You know, I've worked on that stuff, so where has this come from?" And, you know, basically chronic anxiety, the feeling of chronic anxiety is lots of sweating, lots of self-doubt, um, lots of, um, almost like a bit of a personality change in me. You know, outwardly, I'm quite confident, but you know, this, uh, experience with anxiety was sort of really making me question everything about what I say, how I feel, who I am. And you know, it was in this cycle where, if I'm about to go to sleep-... I'm not going to be able to go to sleep because of this, you know, these feelings of doubt and stories I'm telling myself. And it became this perpetual illness. And by the way, I had tried so many things, right? Because-

Steven Bartlett 55:25 When you say doubt-

Dan Murray-Serter 55:26 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 55:26 ... and these stories you're telling-

Dan Murray-Serter 55:27 Self-doubt.

Steven Bartlett 55:28 Self-doubt?

Dan Murray-Serter 55:28 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 55:28 About business?

Dan Murray-Serter 55:29 Self-doubt about business, self-doubt about who I am, um, and about why I'm feeling like this. Anxiety's such a complicated thing-

Steven Bartlett 55:36 Sure.

Dan Murray-Serter 55:36 ... because, um, you know, there's a great, uh, I think it's by Lao Tzu, the, and it's not a perfect, um, verbatim quote, but he says something like, "Depression is a symptom of sadness for the past we've lived. Anxiety is obsession and confusion over the future you're gonna have." And that's why, like, mindfulness and being present is the antidote. Um, I think I really resonate with that, because, you know, my own depression experience was loss of my father, the past. My anxiety was, like, the person, A, was anxiety about the night I, night sleep I'm about to not have-

Steven Bartlett 56:07 Mm.

Dan Murray-Serter 56:07 ... but also, like, you know, who, who am I going to be? What's going to happen? How long can I live like this?

Steven Bartlett 56:12 Feels like it's self-fulfilling in a way as well.

Dan Murray-Serter 56:14 Exactly. So, the, the truth is, I tried all these different things. So, like, I went to, I did therapy, I did sleep therapy, I used all the apps, Calm, Sleepio. I tried, you know, uh, cutting out alcohol, I tried drinking much more alcohol. (laughs) Like, I tried, you know, like, you name it, I'd, like, not smoked weed for a while, I was like, "Right, that's it, getting a weed habit back."

Steven Bartlett 56:35 (laughs)

Dan Murray-Serter 56:35 You know, like, anything that you could possibly do to just, like, stay zonked. But I went to the doctor and he recommended me sleeping pills. But that really irked me. And we, you know, we just talked about, uh, Lost Connections, Johann Hari, right? Um, I don't appreciate medication that will work that night as solving my problem. And I'm smart enough to know that it wouldn't solve my problem, it would just help me sleep that night.

Steven Bartlett 56:57 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 56:57 So, I've still got those sleeping pills, and I never used them. And I kept on going for this journey, the search for why this was happening. And it led me, in the end, to a dietician-

Steven Bartlett 57:07 Mm.

Dan Murray-Serter 57:07 ... um, which I'd never worked with before. And by the way, I didn't even know what a dietician was. I'd heard of nutritionists 'cause isn't that just everyone on Instagram? Um, but a dietician, uh, had no idea. But it turns out a dietician is basically a nutritionist with a scientific degree, they can work in the NHS, and they work with sick people. So if you have a sick problem like insomnia, you go to a dietician, and they will literally tell you medically what they can do to affect your, your, your experience. And she just said to me, um, she basically asked me about what I was eating and my habits and, like, all this kind of stuff, and I told her, and this is someone who I think I'm quite healthy, generally speaking. And she just said, um, "You're basically not getting enough brain food." And I was like, "I don't even know what that means. Like, I don't understand the context of that statement." And she was like, "Well, uh, let me put it this way. Your brain is an organ, right? It's 60% fat. 90% of the fat in your brain is this one compound called DHA. And most people that come to me with, uh, essentially mental health problems, which is what you currently have, have nutritional deficiencies and don't realize there are three main things that I would recommend in your condition. One is omega-3s, the other is B vitamins," because again, that's for energy. So she explained that I'm having a spike at 2:00 AM, so I need that spike not to happen. I needed to have, like, much more slow release of B vitamins in my energy supply in my body every day. "And then the third thing was blueberry extract because it's an antioxidant and would help my glymphatic system whilst I slept." Right? She's saying this stuff to me, I'm, like, so skeptical I can't even tell you, not only not a supplement taker, um, but she's now recommending me three supplements, and I'd been given pills by the doctor, and I'm like, I mean, like, "Come on, how is this gonna be any better?" So you can imagine my complete and utter surprise when I took those three things. I mean, they were very expensive, they were, like, medically prescribed ones, so super potent, from, you know, I think it was Whole Foods or Planet Organic, they were pricey. But within two weeks I was sleeping like a baby, and I wasn't, I wasn't feeling anxiety. And when you have a moment like that in your life, and you know this 'cause you're a deeply inquisitive person-

Steven Bartlett 59:13 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 59:13 ... it makes you stop, and it makes you go, "Hold on a second. Like, this was so simply solved. I don't actually believe it to be true. This must be a placebo. This must be finally my placebo that, that has caused this." Um, instead I did what I do, I'm quite nerdy, I started reading science papers, 'cause I kind of ... You know, the one thing I do hate on Instagram is, like, everyone's a nutritionist, everyone's a this, everyone's a that. I'm like, "I don't wanna listen to some guy that takes nootropics telling me about, like, my brain and mental performance. I wanna see what scientists that don't take any credit actually have to say about this stuff." And I learned that there are thousands, literally, of science papers, this is why I did the newsletter, I knew I'd never run out of content, it's like literally the deepest well of content ever, ever, ever to do what I'm doing. Um, there were thousands of science papers on all of these ingredients and how they impact not just your mental health below the baseline, so if you're suffering from insomnia, if you're suffering from anxiety, even if you've got depression, schizophrenia, like, so many medical papers, scientific journals, sorry, um, about the impact of taking a high supplementation of X, Y, Z, or obviously much more food of that particular ingredient, and the impact it's had. And then when you're at the baseline, all of these examples about nutrition impacting your mental performance. So this is things like decision-making, focus, energy, like all of the things you, we want in life, right? No one wants to really be recovering from a mental health problem, they wanna be at their baseline and thriving. Um, it just took me by so much surprise 'cause it's like, "Well, if this is in this, like, if this is so well known in science, why didn't I know about it?" I was working in Shoreditch at a scaling startup, like bearded, glasses, hipster twat, like-

Steven Bartlett 1:00:56 (laughs)

Dan Murray-Serter 1:00:56 ... you know, keto, vegan, like, yes, I've heard of all of them, um, all my friends intermittent fast, yada, yada, yada. This is just, like, common sense brain food. Why is that not a thing that people know about? Why is taking care of your brain not something anyone's actually talked about clearly and-... actually found a really meaningful way to communicate what that stands for. And what science papers do really badly is, like, you know, the- when I synthesize them, there's about two or three sentences that are saying the point, but it's-

Steven Bartlett 1:01:28 Yeah.

Dan Murray-Serter 1:01:28 ... just covered with jargon. They're boring as shit.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:30 Yeah.

Dan Murray-Serter 1:01:30 Um, so I was like, "First step, newsletter. I will add some emojis and some lols and make it millennial and fun and I will get people to read science papers without even realizing they're necessarily reading them." So, every week you'll learn something from a scientific journal, which I will link back to that you can click, and by the way, no one clicks it. Um, and you can learn something that science says is good for your brain every week. Um, that is essentially how the journey with Heights actually started, with this, like, realization that something as, you know when you s- y- you know, the beautiful moment in life where you can spot an opportunity-

Steven Bartlett 1:02:02 Mm.

Dan Murray-Serter 1:02:02 ... so big, and actually solved by the power of communication and brand. Um, you know, a lot of people say brand and comms, that is not a market strategy, that is not defensible. I think those people are idiots-

Steven Bartlett 1:02:18 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 1:02:18 ... and the wrong market, because, you know, my counter to that is, do you think that Buddhist monks got everyone meditating, or was it calm and headspace? Do you think that we love to run because we watch the Olympics, or is it Nike getting in our heads? Do you think that people around the world are doing yoga because of, like, you know, some ashram, or do we actually think it's Lululemon? Brands create change in the world that we want to see, and brands connect with human beings and create communities, and the power of social media and standing for something is where brands take something that was always done before anyway, stick a tick on a shoe, it's still just a shoe. Like, Lululemon, like, it's just, like, a little logo, an omega logo on pants. It doesn't matter. The way that you express what you do and why you do it is the thing that has the power to change. Um, my opinion and my own experience of being, you know, in that Shoreditch hipster twat area where you just know about things, like, early and trends, to have never come into contact with something so important that can have such an impact, as nutrition and mental health, nutrition and taking care of your brain, to me, felt like a calling, right? I've just suffered for six months, I've overcome something, uh, this is all I want to do with my life.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:36 And so you started Heights.

Dan Murray-Serter 1:03:37 And so I started Heights.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:39 How's it going?

Dan Murray-Serter 1:03:41 Great question. We launched January the 6th in a pandemic. Well, not in a pandemic yet.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:46 I have to say, you know, I saw this on my Facebook feed, and, um, I think I messaged you about investing in the company just because it was beautiful. (laughs) I saw the branding on the website and the way that you'd done the website, and I was like, "This team get branding." And in the direct to consumer world, it's interesting what you were just saying there about comms and b- well, like, the way that I hear it is, like, storytelling and, um, uh, platforms, um, enabling, um, almost democratizing the access to, like, build great products now. Because back in the, like, if we think about Nike, shelf space-

Dan Murray-Serter 1:04:20 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:20 ... or you think about the, the, you know, the, the power that the Unilevers have, you're n- in fact, not, y- the war isn't always storytelling and brand or comms. It's, in fact, like, knowing a guy or price points. But in the direct to consumer social media world, brand and, uh, comms and storytelling can win.

Dan Murray-Serter 1:04:38 And product design.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:38 Exactly, and product design, which is a huge-

Dan Murray-Serter 1:04:40 So-

Steven Bartlett 1:04:40 ... part of the story. And that for me was beautiful. So I, I, uh, I was straight in there to try and invest in your company and, I mean, you know, you know for a fact that I've been taking Heights ever since-

Dan Murray-Serter 1:04:49 January, I think.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:50 ... pre-launch, I-

Dan Murray-Serter 1:04:50 Yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:51 ... pre-launch, I think it was, yeah.

Dan Murray-Serter 1:04:51 December maybe. What's your experience been as a customer there?

Steven Bartlett 1:04:54 I, I love it. And, you know, this is, and this is, this is where I really, I, this is why I always also really wanted to talk to you today. So, there is probably several people on a spectrum of, like, you know, devout, um-

Dan Murray-Serter 1:05:05 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:05 ... vitamin takers-

Dan Murray-Serter 1:05:06 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:06 ... or ... And then there's people that don't understand or believe in it.

Dan Murray-Serter 1:05:09 Yeah, I was that.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:10 Yeah. And so how do you confront the skepticism? Because with products like this, it is hard for the user to establish cause and effect.

Dan Murray-Serter 1:05:17 100%.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:17 And, like, there's other factors that might happen in my life that-

Dan Murray-Serter 1:05:20 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:20 ... make cause and effect almost in- eh- establishable. So, like, say I take my h- I take the, the Heights for one week straight-

Dan Murray-Serter 1:05:26 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:26 ... but in that week, I have just the worst mental health week-

Dan Murray-Serter 1:05:30 Yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:30 ... because of other factors.

Dan Murray-Serter 1:05:30 For sure.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:31 How do I know? So I guess it, yeah.

Dan Murray-Serter 1:05:34 It's a great question. I think there's two parts to this, right? So one is, um, like, supplements deserve a bad rep. This is the most important thing to address, first and foremost. 'Cause when I went, I was like, "Why is she giving me this, like, prescribed stuff? Why can't I just go to Holland & Barrett or Boots and just buy the things that she says there?" Um, it turns out there's this weird marketing thing in supplements where you can put a minimum in. So there's the amount according to science that will have an impact on your body, brain, whatever, and then there's a marketing amount, which is way lower, that you're allowed to put in on that product. So if you take, like, Vitabiotics or, you know, a lot of products, there's an asterisk on those boxes, they're legally obliged to tell you, tiny small print on the back, that what you're taking is actually a fraction of the daily amount that you're meant to have according to science. But marketing wise, they can say, "Promotes healthy this, promotes healthy that." Um, you know, my favorite story on this is probably, uh, Seven Seas, the biggest omega-3, right? 'Cause we all grew up as children, our parents give us Seven Seas and, you know, that's the biggest omega-3 brand in the whole entire world. Now, every single day, according to science, we're meant to have a minimum, like an RDA if you will, of 250 milligrams of omega-3s, right? You can get it from your food or you can get it from these pills as a safety net. It's essentially what a supplement is, right? It's if you're not getting the food, supplement.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:45 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 1:06:45 Not-... instead of.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:46 Yeah.

Dan Murray-Serter 1:06:46 Don't take supplements instead of eating, they're supplements. So, it's like a safety net. Now, that 250 milligrams, the minimum you can put in is 45 milligrams. So, guess how much Seven Seas put into their number one best-selling product?

Steven Bartlett 1:06:59 Milligrams. (laughs)

Dan Murray-Serter 1:06:59 45 on the dot. Um, that means you have to take-

Steven Bartlett 1:07:02 That's crazy.

Dan Murray-Serter 1:07:02 ... Seven Seas for six days straight just to get one day's worth of the scientific dose you're meant to get. But it's all small print, and a consumer doesn't see that. And supplements, for whatever reason, have been able to do that. So, when we went into our supplement design, right, this was the awesome thing. Me and my business partner, Joel, came from a tech background at this point, right? We've done user experience. We've done all this stuff, and we are very much into this idea of because we're not from this space, we're gonna win, because we are gonna approach this completely differently. A, we start with community, building a newsletter and an audience, asking questions to that audience about what we should do and how we should do it and can we see how they behave? So, here are the things that we learn. Most people, like, a lot of people are super open-minded about taking supplements, starting supplements, right? The problem with supplements is it can be very difficult to feel the impact or know they're working. And so, like a lot of things with prevention and wellbeing in general, it's a commitment to the person you want to become more so than it is, like, a medication which cures a problem, and you're like, "Oh, that got fixed. That's great. That's over." So, you know, we got really fascinated by this idea of, like, how can you help people build habits with our product design? How can we overcome this problem that supplements have that, you know, in January, massive surge, loads of people start, but very few people continue? If you can get past the hurdle of someone trying something, your job as an entrepreneur is to figure out how to make them a real customer, not just a first-time buyer. Um, you know, you talked about that bottle. That bottle was designed with our newsletter audience by going into people's homes and asking them very weirdly, and quite often the wives, "Show us what you do with your supplements." And everyone has these supplement cupboards, 'cause we, neither of us were supplement takers before, like, we even started this, right? So, we didn't know what n- normal behavior was, which means you get to ask these great open questions, which is where you get the best answers. So, like, everyone has a supplement cupboard. Reason?

Steven Bartlett 1:08:46 Mm-hmm.

Dan Murray-Serter 1:08:46 They all look the same. And what happens is, psychologically, and we got told this the whole time, people basically open their cupboards, see so many that are, like, broken promises at the time they promised they were gonna start and didn't continue-

Steven Bartlett 1:08:57 I feel attacked. (laughs)

Dan Murray-Serter 1:08:58 Yeah, they feel guilty. They feel guilty, and they're like, "Well, I can't just take the vitamin C 'cause I said I'd take D, I said I'd take that and everything else, and they're always separate, and..." So people just give up. Um, you know, there's two things to that. There's one, there's sort of, like, guilt about the promises that you were, like, with the person you wanted to be. And then the second is just, again, you know, it's set and setting or, you know, out of sight,