Paul Brunson: "The 70/30 Body Shape Is Scientifically The Most Sexy" & THIS Predicts Divorce!

Paul C. Brunson 0:00 The number one reason for breakups is not finance, infidelity, it's... If you do that, there's a 99% likelihood you'll break up.

Steven Bartlett 0:10 That's pretty crazy when you think about it.

Paul C. Brunson 0:12 Paul Carrig Brunson.

Steven Bartlett 0:13 The world's most influential matchmaker. (gavel bangs)

Paul C. Brunson 0:15 You choose a weak partner, not only do you not live as long, not as happy, more unhealthy, but you could literally suffer death. So, who you choose is the most important decision you can make.

Steven Bartlett 0:28 So, I have questions.

Paul C. Brunson 0:29 You ready for this?

Steven Bartlett 0:30 What is the state of dating?

Paul C. Brunson 0:31 It's a hell of a problem.

Steven Bartlett 0:33 How do you spot a narcissist?

Paul C. Brunson 0:34 So, the key is to...

Steven Bartlett 0:36 This golden mean thing in your book, wh- what is that?

Paul C. Brunson 0:38 It's the optimal measure of what we consider to be sexy. For women, it's the percentage of your waist to your hips. So-

Steven Bartlett 0:46 What is the future of dating?

Paul C. Brunson 0:47 I know a lot of people are gonna be mad at me for this, but we can go there if you want to. It's like...

Steven Bartlett 0:51 Arranged marriages.

Paul C. Brunson 0:52 Data shows us people in arranged marriage have higher satisfaction because...

Steven Bartlett 0:57 And this is often where many people go wrong, what should I be looking for in a partner?

Paul C. Brunson 1:01 It has come down 10 years of research on this, there's five key characteristics that we need. One...

Steven Bartlett 1:08 Paul, I wanted to go over this thing called attachment theory because I think I'm an avoidant attachment style.

Paul C. Brunson 1:14 I love this topic. There's some phenomenal research looking at the number of orgasms that people have based on their attachment style, and if they were avoidant, the data showed that...

Steven Bartlett 1:25 No comment.

Paul C. Brunson 1:26 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:26 Moving on.

Paul C. Brunson 1:27 But I have to say why, though. This is important.

Steven Bartlett 1:30 Quick one. This is really, really fascinating to me. On the backend of our YouTube channel, it says that 69.9% of you that watch this channel frequently over the lifetime of this channel haven't yet hit the subscribe button. I just wanted to ask you a favor. It helps this channel so much if you choose to su- subscribe. Helps us scale the guests, helps us scale the production, and it makes the show bigger. So, if I could ask you for one favor, if you've watched this show before and you've enjoyed it and you like this episode that you're currently watching, could you please hit the subscribe button? Thank you so much, and I will repay that gesture by making sure that everything we do here gets better and better and better and better. That is a promise I'm willing to make you. Do we have a deal?

Steven Bartlett 2:14 Paul, last time I had you on my show, you were a smash hit, and I look at the episodes and I can see the retention of every conversation I have. The retention is essentially how many minutes of the conversation someone listened to you, and you're a real record breaker on our show-

Paul C. Brunson 2:31 Right.

Steven Bartlett 2:31 ... in terms of retention because the message that you communicate is communicated in such a compelling, relatable way, but you're speaking to a problem that all of us have in our lives, which is this problem of love.

Paul C. Brunson 2:43 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 2:44 And just... I, I know your story, but there's, there's a chance that some people that have, that have just clicked this don't know your story. W- the wisdom you have, what is the experience that you've been on, and how long is that experience, and what's the sort of flavor and diversity of that experience that has culminated in this wisdom you have about relationship science? What have you been exposed to and how long for?

Paul C. Brunson 3:05 I spent my first part of my career in finance, so I was a researcher in investment banking. I went off, got my business degree, you know, so I, I was on that track, and then I switched the track to focus on relationship science. And then in the process of switching, I had an opportunity to work for two incredible people, two billionaires. So, in the rel- on the finance side, it was a gentleman by the name of Enver Yucel, who's a billionaire out of Turkey and owns the largest for-profit education company in the world. And then when I switched into relationship science, I had the opportunity of working for Oprah Winfrey, right? And so these were two billionaires, and I say billionaires, and I underscore that because they were two entirely different people.

Steven Bartlett 3:51 Mm-hmm.

Paul C. Brunson 3:51 Different characteristics, different, uh, setups at home, but yet they had the same behaviors, and I started to write about those behaviors, and by writing about those behaviors, I ended up becoming a journalist, uh, uh, for USA Today. My wife and I launched what was considered to be the largest matchmaking business in the United States, and then we sold that in 2017, and that's what ended up allowing us to come to the UK. But the heart of what I do is I, I'm the world's biggest nerd when it comes to relationship science. I, I wake up every morning, I'm reading some bit of research, I'm going to sleep every night, falling asleep, uh, on some lecture around relationship science. I, I think it's, it's one of the most undervalued areas, and this... Decisions that we make around relationships are... have dramatic, dramatic impact on how we show up, what happens in our lives, what happens to the lives of those around us, and what happens to the lives who come after us, our children. So, these are very important decisions, and I think that's the reason why it occupies so much of my thought.

Steven Bartlett 4:56 Have you been exposed to any first-party data? I know that you... I think maybe, was it Tinder have shown you some data?

Paul C. Brunson 5:02 Yeah, absolutely. Last year, I became the head of global insights for Tinder, and what that has allowed me to do is see, quite honestly, more data on dating that gives me more insight than I think w- ... I'd say a lot of people in the world. Uh, I ha- I co-wrote a, uh, a report this year called The Future of Dating 2023, uh, that looks at behavior on the app and also behavior around the world, and I made some projections in there. Gen Z is going to have the strongest, stro- the strongest marriages ever, which, which a lot of... Yeah, look, look at... (laughs) See their face. It was like, "What?" Um, so, so I made some bold predictions in there. Um, but, uh, but, but, but, but absolutely. T- Tinder, that partnership has allowed me some great insights.

Steven Bartlett 5:52 What is the state of dating? What is the future of dating in your view? I wanna know like where we are as a, as a people, and also, I guess, understanding where we are, we have to understand where we've come from, and then from there we can understand where we're going, I guess. (laughs)

Paul C. Brunson 6:05 Yes. Yeah. Let's look back.... okay? So we, you know, humans 300,000 years ago, right, started, there was no dating, it was more so what was called assortative mating, which was the selection of other people based on similar characteristics. So, we would look at someone and say, "Okay, you behave similar to how I behave, you look kind of like how I look, therefore we will mate." And the whole objective was procreation, that was it in hunter-gatherer days. And you could take that all the way up until almost the 1800s. So, Eli Finkel is a great researcher out of New York, and he wrote one of my favorite books, The All-or-Nothing Marriage, and he calls that entire phase the pragmatic phase. You were making a, a selection based on the fact that you wanted to live next week, right? That, that was, that was why you chose a partner or, or, or the procreation of it. But then between the 1800s and the 1960s is what Eli Finkel calls the romantic period. This is the period where we began to say, "Okay, hold on for a second. The Industrial Revolution is happening, we're moving into more nuclear families, so we're moving away from our clans, if you will, and therefore I'm lonely. I don't have my cousins around me anymore. I'm working in this job all day, this factory all day, so this partner of mine who formerly was all about pretty much just my sex partner, now is going to become my friend." So, this romantic age is where you see companionship rise. But still in that phase, you're still not receiving all of your value, all of, all of what you love about a partner is not coming from just the partner. Or should I say, all of what you need in life is not coming from your partner. Your intellectual stimulation is coming from someone down the street, right? You have friends at work that you use for your entertainment and joy. But your partner is beginning to become your companion.

Steven Bartlett 8:07 And that's the second phase, right? That...

Paul C. Brunson 8:09 That's the second phase, is the romantic phase. And then in 1960 what you see happening, and this is in Western society, is you see what? The pill is created. You see the, uh, the, the, the, the washing machine is created, and these inst- these, these tools, if you will, begin to free women, right? We're still living in a patriarchy, hands down, but in the 1960s you began to see women for the first time begin to have a little bit of decision, a little bit of choice in who they chose as a partner. And from the 1960s on, you have what Eli Finkel calls the age of self-expression. Now, the reason why this is so important for us today is because what ends up happening is now you move forward to today. What do we want? Well, we want the highest level of well-being. As Maslow would say, if you think about Maslow's hierarchy of needs, at the bottom is you just want food, you just want shelter, you just wanna be safe. But as you get those things, you go higher and higher to the pyramid, and the top of the pyramid is self-actualization. And this is what most of us want, because most of us are living in a state of privilege. We have water, we have food, we have shelter, so we want to be our best selves. We want to flourish, as Aristotle said, we wanna flourish. So, if we want to flourish now, then we need a partner who can help us flourish. It's no longer about the 1800s or the 1000 where you just needed a partner to, to, you know, basically have sex with and make sure they could, you know, protect you. Like, we're, we're gone from that. We're now we want self-expression, and if we want self-expression, we have different demands on our partner, and that means dating is now more complicated than it has ever been.

Steven Bartlett 10:07 Everybody thinks they want choice, men and women, we all think we want choice, but I, I'm quite fascinated by the psychology of choice and how it can result in indecision, but also valuing what you've chosen less or more. And co- that's sort of context dependent. I think here about arranged marriages, and you talk about that in the book and what we can learn from arranged marriages, because, you know, that's a situation where you're given very little choice.

Paul C. Brunson 10:33 Yes. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 10:34 So, what happens there?

Paul C. Brunson 10:36 Yeah. Thi- thi- this is a controversial one in, in the book, and I, I know a lot of people are gonna be mad at me for this, but here's what the data tells us. That arranged marriages, on average, last longer and both, and both p- people in the arranged marriage have higher satisfaction. Now, I will also say a lot of people are entering arranged marriages with no decision, a lot of arranged marriages, um, are happening w- where I would say are amoral, right? However, let's look at why it could be, 'cause I think that's the beauty of empirical evidence of research is, it allows you to think about the possibilities w- of why, and what, what can we learn from this? One of the reasons why is because when we think we're in love, most of us are not. Most of us are in this blind state of limerence, where we are infatuated with the person in front of us and we really know nothing about them, and we know nothing about decision-making, and we don't fully trust them. The sex is good, right? And we say, "Okay, I wanna spend the rest of my life with this person," right? What's happening in most arranged marriages is you have a village. You have multiple people in your sphere, could be parents, brothers, sisters, friends, who have your best interest, and they sit and they cohesively decide, is this the right partner for you? And they're looking at...... behaviors that you may not be able to see. You know, I saw this with my matchmaking agency. In the matchmaking agency, the first thing that we would do when a client would come in is I would interview friends and family, coworkers, colleagues, people you report to, people who report to you, previous girlfriends, you know, love interests. And with that, I would look for the consensus and, and I would ha- I would use all of that to say, "Okay, this is who Steven is." He comes in and he tells me, "This is who he is." But I talk to all of these people in his sphere and I understand this is who he is. And the reason why we have a hard time understanding who we are is because of cognitive dissonance, right? We believe, as human beings, we think that we behave as we think we behave, but we actually don't. (laughs) Like we, we don't. What we say we value, chances are we don't really value that. You know, in matchmaking again, I would ask, "What are your values?" And then they would give me this long list, "Oh, you know, I'm, I'm a Christian, uh, and I, uh, value health and..." Right? So this is what you do. And then two days later I'd say, "Okay, last Saturday when you were off work, what did you do with your time?" "Oh, I went out and I pigged out. I ate all day and then I went to this concert and I did this." And I said, "Well, w- where was church in that? Where was Bible study? Where was this..." And what I've noticed is that where we spend that free time, where we spend our discretionary money, that's what we value.

Steven Bartlett 13:50 So true. I've thought a lot about this recently, about how what I say should be reflected in how my calendar looks.

Paul C. Brunson 13:57 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 13:58 And that is the true sort of evidence of me living my values, and really what I do value. And I think people struggle with this sometimes 'cause what they'll say in rebuttal to that is, "Well, I'm just so busy, Paul. I'm so, so busy. I've got kids, I've got, uh, you know, mortgage to pay, et cetera." I have to say, they are entirely right that we have a finite amount of time, but in that they're showing what they value.

Paul C. Brunson 14:17 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 14:17 They are showing that they value their kids and (laughs) their life-

Paul C. Brunson 14:21 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 14:21 ... their ability to live and eat. That is a value, that is a priority. And this is also why I think our values should be viewed in, especially as it relates to, like, how we allocate our time, as a, as a list of priorities.

Paul C. Brunson 14:33 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 14:33 IE, this is most important-

Paul C. Brunson 14:34 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 14:34 ... then this, then this, then this, then this. Because we can value 20 things, it doesn't mean we're gonna do them.

Paul C. Brunson 14:39 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 14:39 Because we, you know, f- time is finite, but values aren't necessarily.

Paul C. Brunson 14:43 They're, they're not. I completely agree. It shou- it, it should be a level of prioritization, right?

Steven Bartlett 14:48 Mm-hmm.

Paul C. Brunson 14:48 And we should own, we should comfortably own what that is.

Steven Bartlett 14:51 Yes.

Paul C. Brunson 14:52 So if it is time with your children, th- then you value that.

Steven Bartlett 14:55 Yeah.

Paul C. Brunson 14:55 You know, that's what you value. Stand by that, because the more that you can stand by that and erect boundaries around that, the happier you'll be, the more fulfilled you'll be.

Steven Bartlett 15:05 And you s- you can spot it in the language, because if, if I embody what you just said, when someone asks, "Steve, why haven't you gone to the gym?" My response would, would be, "I had other priorities."

Paul C. Brunson 15:16 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 15:17 It wouldn't be, "I can't."

Paul C. Brunson 15:19 Right.

Steven Bartlett 15:19 You know?

Paul C. Brunson 15:20 Right.

Steven Bartlett 15:20 "I couldn't." Or it wouldn't be blame, it wouldn't be excuses. It would literally be the r- the recognition that there was other priorities that won, and that is okay.

Paul C. Brunson 15:28 That's okay.

Steven Bartlett 15:29 That is okay. But it's so interesting. So arranged marriages, people in arranged marriages report higher levels of satisfaction and stay together longer.

Paul C. Brunson 15:37 Yep, on, on, on average. And, and, and, and even to, to break that down a bit, right, is you have the, the family making the decision, right? So the family is able to see things that you may not be able to see.

Steven Bartlett 15:51 Mm-hmm.

Paul C. Brunson 15:51 So that's, that's, that's one big driver of it. The second driver of it is, let's look at traditional marriage now, outside of arranged marriages. Right now, this is Eli Finkel research, 80% of current marriages are more dissatisfied than they ever have been, ever. And 20% are more satisfied than they e- than they ever have been. Now, now why is that? It's because of what we were talking about previously, and that is is that we now want so much more from our partner. We, we want our partner to be our best friend, our lover, our co-CEO, our, our running buddy, our, you know-

Steven Bartlett 16:32 Therapist.

Paul C. Brunson 16:32 ... our therapist, right?

Steven Bartlett 16:33 Spiritual leader. (laughs)

Paul C. Brunson 16:34 Spiritual leader, our Netflix and chill buddy. Like, we, we want all of this now out of our partner. And so what many people are recognize is they're waking up and they're saying, "You know, I can only get, like, 50% from, from my partner of what I want, or 60%." And many people are not satisfied as a result of that. But the 20% are looking at their partner, they're using all of these available tools we have. We have so much incredible data around how to have a successful relationship, that if you are putting in the work and your partner is putting in the work, you can be more satisfied than ever, right? And so that's the reason why a small percentage are more satisfied. So part of the reason why that group is more satisfied than the average is because the average is not satisfied.

Steven Bartlett 17:19 So if you're in that, that sort of 80% of unsatisfied people in their relationships, is one solution to that to encourage or facilitate your partner in meeting their needs in other places?

Paul C. Brunson 17:32 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 17:32 And I say this because my partner lived in Bali for two years, and then I was living here. So there was this long distance relationship where there was, we wouldn't see each other sometimes for 60 days, for two months.

Paul C. Brunson 17:41 Oh, wow.

Steven Bartlett 17:41 Especially with the lockdowns and all that stuff, it was crazy. And then we got to that point in our relationship where we realized that one of us has to move if this relationship is gonna, gonna work. So does she move to Bal- to London from Bali or do I move my life to Bali? (laughs)

Paul C. Brunson 17:55 Okay. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 17:56 (laughs) Which is super difficult.

Paul C. Brunson 17:58 Yeah, I'd say pretty hard. Pretty hard.

Steven Bartlett 17:59 Yeah, yeah. It's b- like, quit Dragon's Den, I stop the podcast, I say, "My businesses, like, f- forget it." So-

Paul C. Brunson 18:04 All for love.

Steven Bartlett 18:04 Yeah, but I, I knew that I could never ask her to, to move here. I could never do that.

Paul C. Brunson 18:09 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 18:09 She had to make that decision for herself, because-... I've seen the scenarios where there's resentment and all of these things, and contempt. When you move, you, you ... It's almost like you take on the responsibility of that person if you, if you tell them to come to your, to your neck of the woods.

Paul C. Brunson 18:24 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 18:25 And one of the first things I thought about was I'm a busy person, and if she doesn't have a friendship group here, a purpose here, work here, then I'm gonna be, have to be the source of all of those things.

Paul C. Brunson 18:39 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 18:40 And that's terrifying.

Paul C. Brunson 18:42 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 18:42 And, uh, I tell you, for the first part of our relationship, when she'd moved here, I felt like I did have to be those things. Once she'd started her business here, and, uh, her, with her business came a community, and it came her lip- her own little tribe and her own sense of purpose, and I look over in the kitchen when I come back from work and she's on the laptop in the corner, obsessed with her work, and I thought, "God, oh, yeah."

Paul C. Brunson 19:06 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 19:06 Like, "Whew."

Paul C. Brunson 19:06 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 19:07 Yeah.

Paul C. Brunson 19:08 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 19:08 But that's what it must have y- would've been like back in the day, when you were talking about phase two of the history of relationships.

Paul C. Brunson 19:13 Oh, oh, yeah. I mean, that- that- that's, that's the reason why it's, it's interesting why ... I mean, to, to, to that original question of, of yours is that w- we are in such a complicated state right now, because we all have different goals. You know, maybe in your relationship, you know, it al- it, it, it already sounds that you and your girlfriend are interested in self-actualization, right?

Steven Bartlett 19:34 Yeah. Yeah.

Paul C. Brunson 19:34 You, you, you wanna flourish.

Steven Bartlett 19:35 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Paul C. Brunson 19:36 You know? Of course you wanna flourish.

Steven Bartlett 19:38 Yeah.

Paul C. Brunson 19:38 But some people may not want to flourish. If you go down Maslow's hierarchy of needs, for some folks it's just about belonging, or it could be just about self-esteem, or it could be just s- the safety. "I just know I have someone with me." It- just the safety. So we, so we have these different needs, and I think that's why one of the most important things we can do for ourselves is to identify, what is it that we want out of this world? And then unapologetically go after it. Surround yourself with people who are going after it, romantically, professionally, socially. You know, find your tribe, uh, and that's where you'll thrive.

Steven Bartlett 20:14 On that point, as well, you said about friends knowing you better than you know yourself, and kinda by way of that, knowing maybe what you should be going for.

Paul C. Brunson 20:22 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 20:22 How important do you think it is to listen to your friends when they tell you that this ain't the one, he ain't the guy?

Paul C. Brunson 20:27 Oh, man.

Steven Bartlett 20:28 I had a conversation recently with a friend who I shan't name, who, you know, were all saying to this person, "Listen, this ain't the guy." And you can see this, that abso- the point is absolutely not landing. You must've seen this a million times.

Paul C. Brunson 20:39 All the time. All the time. All the time. If y- all of your friends are saying, "This ain't the guy," this ain't the guy. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 20:49 (laughs)

Paul C. Brunson 20:50 No, no mat- no matter what, it will not work out 100% of the times. It, it, it, it won't. The, the, the friend, the ... I think there's certain things that we did with this matchmaking agency that I really think were groundbreaking. That was one. If you can look at what your friends, and family, and all of the people who love you are saying, and they all say the same thing, that's the truth.

Steven Bartlett 21:20 And how important is it to get your shit together before you go into a relationship? I've always wondered this. I've wondered, do you go into a relationship and the situation fixes you, or do you fix yourself, then go into the relationship? You talk about this in the book, the idea that our satisfaction levels in a relationship will vary based on our satisfaction levels before the relationship.

Paul C. Brunson 21:37 Yes. So this was one of the most enlightening, I think, pieces of what we're not hearing. What we hear in pop culture all the time is, "If you have shared values, that's what makes the strongest marriage," or, "That's what makes the strongest relationship." Some people say, "If you have great sex, that's what makes the strongest relationship." But actually, what we found in the research here is if you walk into a relationship and you have a high level of satisfaction, that is what gives you the highest level of satisfaction in the relationship. So the key is you wanna figure out how you could flourish, you know?

Steven Bartlett 22:15 On your own.

Paul C. Brunson 22:16 On your own. Carol Ryff is one of the people who I don't think she gets enough attention out here in the relationship science space, or even in the world, right? She's a brilliant researcher, and in the 1980s, she sat down and she looked at every theorist who's written about flourishing, and then she figures out the consensus. What are all of these great theorists saying about flourishing and well-being? And she created what's called the six dimensions of psychological well-being. And I never hear anyone talk about this. It is like the mo- one of the most important concepts ever for us. And what she's outlined is that there's six areas that we should be focused on if we want to flourish-

Steven Bartlett 23:01 Mm-hmm.

Paul C. Brunson 23:02 ... with or without a partner. One of them is personal development. Are you on the path to personal growth? Are you doing things to develop yourself, right? Number two, do you have inspiration? Do you have g- a goal that you are marching towards in life? Number three is autonomy, feeling like you have control over your time. Next one, number four, is what's called environmental mastery. This is do you feel like the area that you're in, physically, the area that you're in, the city that you may live, the town that you may live in, is it conducive to you doing all the things that you wanna do, right, in life? Next is having a strong relationship with other people, whether it be romantically, it could be, it, it could be platonically, but do you feel like you have connections? Do, do you have friends, right? And last but not least is a concept that she calls self-acceptance. This is very important. Self-acceptance is knowing the demons that you have inside and being okay with them. It's, it's, it's knowing and acknowledging that, "You know, I'm good, but I do have some bad, and I accept my bad." If you are working towards all of those things, all of those six dimensions, you will have the highest level of well-being. You'll reach self-actualization. And to your question-This is something that we should be doing with or without a partner. And if you could do it without a partner when you enter your partnership, it will be that

Paul C. Brunson 24:35 much stronger.

Steven Bartlett 24:35 People that you've spoken to that are struggling in their relationships, do you think they have this opinion that the relationship is going to fix their problems?

Paul C. Brunson 24:43 Yes. Yeah. I- I- I think we walk into relationships and we think it's the end. We think, "That's... check. Done." It's not. It's- it's- it's where the work begins, and we have to change this. And a lot of this has to do with... and, you know, and I put some of the blame on me. You know, I think some of this is television. You know, some of this is- is- is- is the, you know, a lot of people call it the Disneyfication, you know, of- of relationships. Uh, we misunderstand and misinterpret our role in relationships.

Steven Bartlett 25:22 How?

Paul C. Brunson 25:23 I- I fundamentally believe that the number one reason for breakups is not... We- we hear reports all the time that it's finance, it's infidelity, it's... No, it's none of those things. You know what it is? It's we pick bad partners. We select the wrong partners, or we don't make the selection at all. Many of us, and unfortunately, I see this a l- I see this a lot with heterosexual women, is they allow themselves to be selected, opposed to making this choice themselves. So- so- so the first part is, are we choosing the strongest partners for us? That's one. And then once we have chosen the partner, then are we working together to help our partner unveil their best self? You know, the Michelangelo effect, and, uh, Eli Finkel writes about this, where, you know, Michelangelo would never look at a stone and say, "I'm gonna carve this beautiful statue." Instead, he'd look at the stone and say, "I'm going to unveil this beautiful piece of art, this beautiful statue that's in the stone." That's how we should look at our partner, is that we all have this beautiful statue within us, and when you find the strongest partner, that allows you to see that. You know, I know you've had Dr. Waldinger on.

Steven Bartlett 26:43 Mm-hmm.

Paul C. Brunson 26:44 Phenom-... Like, he says it in his- in his research, "You live longer, you're happier, you make more money," you know, you get all of the benefits when you choose a strong partner. But if you choose a weak partner, not only do you not live as long, not only are you not as happy, not only are you more unhealthy, but- but you can literally suffer not just emotional and psychological distress. There is a rise of domestic violence that is happening in our- in these relationships around the world. So, you could literally suffer death, death, by choosing the wrong partner. And so it goes to show how important the decision is. Th- this, this is, this is a life or death decision.

Steven Bartlett 27:34 I wanna go into all of those things you've said about selecting, selecting poorly, and the life and death- death, the life and death decision that comes with psychopaths and narcissists, and all that stuff. Um, you know what's interesting, is when you say to me that the work starts at the relationship, there's part of me that goes, "Ugh."

Paul C. Brunson 27:52 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 27:53 (laughs) Do you know what I mean? 'Cause in the movies, I'm, I was thinking of all these movies I'd seen in New York where there's a twist, there's a turn, and then there's a happily ever after, and the movie ends. And- and you think when the movie ends, in all of these movies that we've watched for 10, 20, 30 years, you think that is the end. You think they live happily ever after. I watched the turmoil, I watched the battle, and then they live happily ever after. If that movie was to be extended, any movie we've seen, romantic movie, what you'd then see is another 30 years of, like, bullshit.

Paul C. Brunson 28:23 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 28:24 But we don't see that. So, I was just thinking, like, where did we get this idea from that the work stops when we find the person?

Paul C. Brunson 28:31 Yeah. Uh, it's- it's- it's- it's coming... Uh, so it's coming from a couple places. One is, that's where it did stop at one point. You think about the pragmatic stage, the romantic stage, that was all you needed. You just needed the partner, it didn't matter, you didn't have to do any work with the partner. So- so we- we have gotten this honestly as a, as a society. But also, it's what pop culture, it's what media, it's- it's- it's- it's what it feeds us. But I would say, don't look at it as hard, distasteful work.

Steven Bartlett 29:02 Yeah.

Paul C. Brunson 29:03 Instead, here's a better way, let's reframe it. Reframe the negative, right? Is this podcast, right? Incredible. One skill... You're probably learning incredible skills doing this, one of which I'm sure is your active listening is off the charts now compared to what it maybe was day one. Now, if you thought, "Active listening, I'm going to learn active listening during this podcast," did you think then it would be grueling? I don't think so. I think that you probably saw that as a great life skill. "I can come in here. I'm gonna not only meet all... I'm gonna do all this in- incredible things, but I'm also gonna develop skills, and these skills are transferrable to everything I do." That's how we should look at o- our relationship. Look at it that way. You are going to learn incredible skills that are transferrable across your life. And as you develop those skills, the whole tide rises. You're going to, uh, develop new skills, and your... and- and better master new skills, and then apply those to your business, apply those to- to your platonic relationships. So, it- it's- it's- it's a wonderful thing. And when you are in a secure relationship, it's boring as hell.

Steven Bartlett 30:18 (laughs)

Paul C. Brunson 30:18 It's boring. Which- which is why, you know, uh, not to get myself into trouble, but, you know, when you're watching television and you're watching these shows around relationships... Uh, actually, I'll give an exa- I- I will give an example. Um, wh- when I got here to the UK...... uh, I started on a- on a show called Celebs Go Dating, and then I very quickly went to a show called Married at First Sight UK. And when I was on Married at First Sight UK, my first series, it was a full docuseries, and we matched couples, and it was boring. You know why it was boring? 'Cause they all loved each other. They all really liked (laughs) each other. And out of that group of four couples, three of them are together today.

Steven Bartlett 31:01 Wow.

Paul C. Brunson 31:02 Right? But you ask anyone in the UK, "Did you see that series?" They'll say, "No, we didn't see that." (laughs) 'Cause it's boring. And then you change things, and you get couples who can still work, but there's tension, right? For a variety of reasons, there's tension, and then it gets exciting. And so one thing that I always say is, "Great love looks boring, but it feels great." You know? Good love, it fee- it feels b- it- it fee- good love looks boring, but it feels great.

Steven Bartlett 31:38 Men.

Paul C. Brunson 31:39 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 31:40 Men are struggling, it seems-

Paul C. Brunson 31:41 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 31:41 ... I think. You know, when- the more and more I talk on this show about dating apps and what it's like to be a man in this dating climate, especially one that's become more digitalized than ever before, the conversation always emerges in the- in the- in the com- sort of, like, the comments sections and stuff about men's struggles here-

Paul C. Brunson 31:58 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 31:58 ... because, you know, these dating apps, they seem to be not well-designed for the, like, bottom 50% of men.

Paul C. Brunson 32:05 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 32:06 What is- what- what are your thoughts on this?

Paul C. Brunson 32:08 Yeah, I'm- I'm- I'm with you. You know, what I like about the conversation today is we're finally acknowledge- it's- it's- it's okay to acknowledge that, you know, men are getting crapped on, you know? I- I feel like just a year ago, if you said that, "Oh, no, what are you talking about?" You know, "We're still in the patriarchy, you can't..." No, m- men are struggling. High suicide rates, highest levels of loneliness, highest issues around mental health. Men are struggling, and the fact that we can just ex- talk about that and all acknowledge, "Okay, let's figure out how to deal with this," is a good place to begin, right? But- but- but now we- now we have to begin. You know, it begins with the awareness and talking about it. It extends into creating safe spaces for men to be able to talk. I love that what you see now is you see these podcast communities, um, creating these spaces where men feel like they can be acknowledged and seen, and that allows for there to be connection with other men going through those same challenges, which creates camaraderie and helps you to, uh, to- to break out of that loneliness. So- so- so we're- we're- we're on the path, uh, but we have to acknowledge some of those larger trends that we see. I know Richard Reeves, uh, talks about this quite a bit, phenomenal book Of Boys And Men, where you can see, uh, just the levels of unemployment, the lower levels of educational attainment, uh, for- for men, the high levels of, uh, uh, of drug usage, the high levels of what, uh, Richard Reeves calls sedation, essentially, is, uh, drug usage, uh, pornography watching, where, uh, you have a large number of men just sedating themselves out of pain, right? Out of loneliness. And so I- I think we're in a great place to begin working on the problem, but it's a hell of a problem.

Steven Bartlett 34:09 In your book on, uh, page 72, it says that in the Tinder research you found that one of the main reasons men aren't in relationships is because of rejection.

Paul C. Brunson 34:19 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 34:19 Fear of rejection.

Paul C. Brunson 34:20 Yes, number one. And- and many people would laugh at that. They'd laugh at that stat, "What? Men walk up to me all the time. So how is it that men are fearful of rejection?" But the fact of the matter is that the majority of men report the number one reason why they believe they can't find a significant other is the fear of being rejected. Think about that. And that's not just in person. That's online, feeling as if, "You are going to deny me. You're going to reject me." And to me, that speaks to self-esteem, to me, that speaks to self-love, to me, that speaks to self-worth, and so therefore, we have to really evaluate the- the- the why, the- the why. Why is that? You know? But I- I think this is such an important point, and this is why we have to look back. Let's look at history. Why is it the case that the Calvin Klein model, or why is it the case that the higher status person gets more interaction? If you think back to pragmatic, right? If you were a woman, what did you need to survive?

Steven Bartlett 35:33 Uh, I needed a mate that would protect me.

Paul C. Brunson 35:38 Exactly. Now, the protection would come in one of two things.

Steven Bartlett 35:41 And I say that because at some point I'm gonna be eight and a half months pregnant, and I- I- I ain't gonna be able to hunt no, you know, or forage, or I don't know.

Paul C. Brunson 35:49 Ex- ex- exactly. And- and so- so you need to have the protection, and the protection came in- in one of two ways. One, physicality-

Steven Bartlett 35:56 Mm-hmm.

Paul C. Brunson 35:56 ... right? Someone who's just strong and can fight, but the other was high social status.

Steven Bartlett 36:01 Resource, which would bring resources.

Paul C. Brunson 36:03 Which would bring resources, and therefore, you know you'd have the protection because of that. So how long did that continue?

Steven Bartlett 36:10 Yeah, most of human history.

Paul C. Brunson 36:11 Most of human history. So we have, through evolution, this has been indoctrinated into our- into our system, and what is rarely talked about is, so, you know, there were millions of men throughout history who were not the Calvin Klein, not the biggest, didn't have the social status. So what happened to them in history? Do you know what happened to them, most of them? They were the ones sent to war.These were the men fighting for whatever country, the- the- these were the men, when you, when you watch Napoleon and you see, "Oh my God, the Battle of Waterloo, you had tens of thousands of people to- who's dying?" It's those men. It's not the high-status- status men. It's not, it's not the Calvin Klein-looking, right? It's those men were dying. And we've reached a point in society where we're no longer fighting wars like that. We're fighting with drones and missiles. You have millions upon millions upon millions of men sitting there saying, "Okay, now what about me? What about me?" And this is the problem. This is where we are.

Steven Bartlett 37:14 What about men? What were they selecting for?

Paul C. Brunson 37:16 They were selecting for youth.

Steven Bartlett 37:18 Fertility?

Paul C. Brunson 37:19 Fertility, yeah. They- they wanted youth, uh, which- which spoke to fertility, uh, and that ran through time. And that's the reason why you see a woman who, you know, I talk about this in the book, there's this golden mean.

Steven Bartlett 37:36 Golden mean. I read this, and it was the first time I'd ever heard of this idea of the golden mean, but it was super interesting.

Paul C. Brunson 37:41 The golden mean.

Steven Bartlett 37:42 Explained why my girlfriend seems to like my shoulders.

Paul C. Brunson 37:45 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 37:45 She doesn't care if I get fat. I swear to you, I asked her one day, I was like, "What do you prefer..." 'Cause she asked me, she said, "What features do you prefer on me?" And obviously I knew that was a trap. (laughs)

Paul C. Brunson 37:52 So I said everything. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 37:55 (laughs) I'm not stupid. But then when she asked the question, she- I asked her the question back, I was like, "What- what features do you prefer on me?" She was like, "Your shoulders."

Paul C. Brunson 38:04 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 38:04 And I was like, "Really?"

Paul C. Brunson 38:05 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 38:05 I was like, "I thought they said you wanted..." Like, I thought one they wanted was a six-pack. She was like, she was holding my shoulders, she was like, "Your shoulders."

Paul C. Brunson 38:11 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 38:11 And then I read this golden mean thing in your book and I was like, "Ahh."

Paul C. Brunson 38:14 Yeah, yeah. That's- that's how I- I could- I could... You know, it's interesting. I spot everyone and I almost am calculating golden mean 'cause I'm always thinking as a matchmaker, like, "I can match that, blah, blah, blah." So the- the golden mean has stood throughout history, and there's a different calculation for- for men and women. For women, the calculation is the difference between waist and hips, right? So it's the percentage of your waist to your hips. So if on average your waist is 70% of what your hips are, that is considered to be fertile, right? You're considered to be at optimal, you know, you're optimal for fertilization in- in- in essence. And you could see that ratio tested throughout time and you could see that ratio tested throughout culture, which is rare to go to an eastern collectivist society and see something similar to what's happening in a Western, uh, individualistic society. And so the golden mean stands through time. And the reason why it's so interesting is because you look at, like, Twiggy in the 1970s, I think, uh, in the UK, and you say, "Gosh, Twiggy was so thin," but she still had a 70% golden mean. You f- you look at the, you know, people talk about the- the Kim Kardashians of the world, she has less than 70%, she's probably like 50%, right, golden mean. And so the golden mean is the optimal measure of what we just consider to be fertile, therefore sexy, on average.

Steven Bartlett 39:51 And so that hasn't been influenced by, you know, magazines and media and stuff like that? That's just wh- scientists think that's innate to humans.

Paul C. Brunson 39:59 It- it's y- yes. They- they- they think that it, that's innate, but it is, it is impacted by culture. So you go into different subcultures and there might be more of an exaggeration of the golden mean, right? So maybe it's more than 70%, uh, or should I say less than 70% could be what's considered more attractive. So it is influenced, but on average that is it. And the reason why I say that is it is because, uh, many men would argue, "Oh no," you'll say, "What- what are you? Are you, you're- you're a breast man? You're a leg man? Like, what- what- what- what is it like it's a Thanksgiving dinner?" You know what I mean?

Steven Bartlett 40:35 Mm-hmm.

Paul C. Brunson 40:35 And, uh, those could be characteristics and features that you find sexy and attractive, but on average this is what will, um, th- what will light up most, most men. And then for me- for- for women, when they're looking at a- a man, the golden mean is the difference between shoulders and waist. And so if you have, if your waist is 70% or less than your shoulders, then that is considered to be what? Someone who could protect me. That's where that comes from, you know? And therefore, throughout hundreds of thousands of years of- of- of- of- of history, we get to the point where, okay, it's sexy. Why is it sexy? I don't know, he just looks sexy. No, the reason why he looks sexy is 'cause ultimately back in the day he could have been a protector. So that's where that comes from. And in the matchmaking community, what I used to do all the time is if I had a client who was, you know, say a- a male client and he didn't really represent the- the golden mean, I'd say, "Put on this- this- this, uh, this- this blazer here." (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 41:45 Mm-hmm.

Paul C. Brunson 41:45 (laughs) You know?

Steven Bartlett 41:46 Should have pants.

Paul C. Brunson 41:46 Wide shoulder pad blazer, go out there on that date. Um, you know, so the golden mean is something that has stood the test of time.

Steven Bartlett 41:54 So many people

Steven Bartlett 41:55 are gonna be doing, like, shoulder pressing tonight.

Paul C. Brunson 41:58 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 41:58 That's crazy.

Paul C. Brunson 41:59 That's all you need to do.

Steven Bartlett 42:01 Yeah, just-

Paul C. Brunson 42:01 That's it.

Steven Bartlett 42:01 ... a little bit of shoulder press.

Paul C. Brunson 42:02 That's it.

Steven Bartlett 42:03 That's so crazy. Um, but it, but it makes evolutionary sense that there is ... Is it proportion's the right word? That we would associate with fertility or s- you know, protection. What's this concept in chapter four you talk about, the concept of mate value?

Paul C. Brunson 42:22 Uh, yeah, th- this is, this is, I feel like the whole book now (laughs) is controversial. This- this- (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 42:29 (laughs)

Paul C. Brunson 42:29 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 42:29 Just give a quick disclaimer there.

Paul C. Brunson 42:30 Yeah. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 42:31 It's his book, not mine.

Paul C. Brunson 42:31 Th- this is, uh, another topic that a lot of people wanna push back on, right? Mate value is a evolutionary...... psychology term that is around technically what value do we bring to the mating marketplace because when you think about, uh, you know, our evolution is that we go on one or two paths in mating. We call it dating, evolutionarily. They're calling it mating. Long-term mating or short-term mating, right? Now, short-term mating is a separate beast. Short-term mating is literally I want to have sex tonight, therefore you're going to look at different characteristics. You're not going to care if you can trust the person, you're not gonna care... Yeah, yeah, like, you're gonna look at what they look like and that really might not mean anything to you. That's short-term mating. Long-term mating is much different. Long-term mating is just, "Okay, I'm looking for a partner for life," and part of the calculation that we're doing, innately, the calculation that we're doing is, is what do we value the person? It's no different than someone saying, "Oh, yeah, he's a, he's a nine." Or, or, or, "She, she's a 10."

Steven Bartlett 43:45 Mm-hmm.

Paul C. Brunson 43:45 "You know, 10 out of 10. She's a 10." In essence, that's what mate value is, but I look at mate value as all of the ingredients that we bring to the table. So yes, it is about physically how we look, it is about status and our job. Yeah, that's important, but it's also about how kind we are. It's also about our behavior. It's also about how confident we are when, when, when we walk into a room. All of these pieces add up to mate value, but the reason why I say it's, it's so important to know is because mate value will also change based on the context. For example, if I take... So I keep... Uh, you're going to be my reference here. (laughs) If, if, if I take you, Steven, and I bring you to Richmond, Virginia, where my wife is from, and we go to a restaurant, you walk in, everyone is mesmerized by you the moment you open your mouth.

Steven Bartlett 44:42 Yeah, amazing.

Paul C. Brunson 44:43 Everyone is.

Steven Bartlett 44:44 Where is it?

Paul C. Brunson 44:45 Richmond. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 44:49 (laughs)

Paul C. Brunson 44:49 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 44:49 Got a postcode. (laughs)

Paul C. Brunson 44:51 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 44:51 Richmond.

Paul C. Brunson 44:53 Make a note here. Uh, ev- everyone is. The moment, the moment that you speak, "Wow, I've never heard an accent like that. Tell me more about you." Right? They're intrigued. It's what I call the premium effect that lands on top of the mate value, right? Sp- but we have to understand that there is a value that we assign people when we are mating or dating.

Steven Bartlett 45:16 You conveniently skipped over the one about having kids.

Paul C. Brunson 45:19 Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 45:20 (laughs)

Paul C. Brunson 45:20 Yeah. No, no, but s- so having kids, it goes up or it, it brings your value up or it brings your value down. Now it depends on what your partner is seeking. So if you, if, if you, if ch- so chances are, let's say that you are a woman, uh, you have children, and you are, uh, i- i- you're, you're dating, um, a man who does not yet have children and wants to have children. Chances are that is going to lower, in his eyes, on average-

Steven Bartlett 45:52 Mm-hmm.

Paul C. Brunson 45:52 ... that's going to lower the, that's going to lower your perceived mate value. However, however, if he has children or maybe he's a little bit older or ma- wh- what, for, for whatever the reason, he could look at that as, as, as, as an upside. The point there, though, is that it's the context that changes your mate value, and, and that's very important. The context is what

Paul C. Brunson 46:17 changes it.

Steven Bartlett 46:17 So this premium effect you talked about then when you're talking about, um, Richmond, Virginia.

Paul C. Brunson 46:21 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 46:22 How can one use that to increase my chance of finding someone to fall in love with? And just c- just give a bit of color on what you mean by the premium effect. Is it being a scarce commodity in a certain environment?

Paul C. Brunson 46:38 Yeah, that's exactly-

Steven Bartlett 46:39 Or, or a desirable commodity in a certain environment? Or...

Paul C. Brunson 46:42 It, it, it's being scarce.

Steven Bartlett 46:43 Scarce, okay.

Paul C. Brunson 46:44 Yeah. So when we started the matchmaking agency, it was focused exclusively for Black women and the reason why is because I felt as if Black women were being highly discriminated against in the matchmaking space. And so I was trying everything, and so I thought, "You know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna start putting my clients on dating apps and I will act as them." And I saw that they were not getting traction.

Steven Bartlett 47:09 Is that statistically proven? I'd love to know.

Paul C. Brunson 47:13 Yeah, y- y- you know, I will say from all of my experience in matchmaking, it was.

Steven Bartlett 47:19 That Black women got less matches on dating apps, less swipes?

Paul C. Brunson 47:24 It, it... In, in my time when I was running that dating agency, absolutely. Absolutely. H- hands, like, hands down. There, there, there was no question.

Steven Bartlett 47:32 Why?

Paul C. Brunson 47:33 Well, y- you know, there's lots of reasons. One reason is that when it comes to... Outside of Gen Z, so if you look at Millennials, you look at Gen X, you look at Baby Boomers, and at that time, Gen Z wasn't yet on dating apps. We're talking about Millennials and higher. We typically choose ethnicity over every other category, so ethnicity ended up being one of the first selections of a partner. And we would either bring you... You, you know, we would either include you or exclude you based on ethnicity. Gen Z has changed this and I'm, and I'm so happy to see this. Gen Z is the first generation to, at majority, have interest in everyone. So on Tinder, for example, we see that 80% of our Gen Z, they are not just open, but they have dated someone outside of their ethnicity. And I believe that we're entering this new phase of what I call we are ca- we are inter-everything. We are interethnic, international, interreligious. That to me is, is, is beautiful.... but that didn't happen for Millennials, it definitely didn't happen for Gen X, and definitely not for Baby Boomer. So ethnicity was number one. So because of that, and because of the pools of, uh, Black men on dating apps of that age range were so much smaller, that you saw a very small selection rate for Black women. So that's what was driving the low, low, low perceived interest. But what I didn't like what was happening is you would see this data come out, uh, you know, Black women are not selected or not swiped on, or whatever it may be, and it would be projected as Black women are not desirable.

Steven Bartlett 49:26 Mm-hmm.

Paul C. Brunson 49:26 Which is ab- like, the most ridiculous thing in the world. I was like, "What are you talking about?" But the reason why is because they were taking these small data sets and essentially claiming this larger narrative based on this small data set. And so w- when I was experimenting with those, uh, with- with- with my clients, I then said, "Okay, what would happen if I put my Black female clients onto JDate?" Right? Jewish date. You know, and they were not Jewish. Like, they were ultra Christian, right? What would happen? So I started putting them on JDate. Phenomenal success. F- like, phenomenal success. Phenomenal success. There was a percentage of people who responded who were crude, "Why are you here?" There was a percentage of people who responded who were obviously fetishizing, "Oh, I wanna do this to you," right? But then there was a percentage of people who were just curious, "Let's see, why did you, that's interesting. I, you're, why are you here? Like, let's- let's have this conversation." And the interactions were plentiful. And what I realized there is there was a premium effect being assigned, there was a extra value that they got by being the scarce commodity in- in this space. And so my objective with a lot of my clients was to take them and put them in places where they are few.

Steven Bartlett 50:59 That's so interesting. And- and we can do that IRL as well, we can put ourselves in situations where we're scarce in real life. Is it going to, like, a different type of sports club, or, you know, what- what- what is that?

Paul C. Brunson 51:11 Yeah. So I, um, I- I tried this out here. I have a friend who lives in, uh, Hertfordshire.

Steven Bartlett 51:17 Mm-hmm.

Paul C. Brunson 51:18 She is a white woman friend, 30, mid-30s, uh, completely open to meeting everyone, right? She's like, "Paul, I'm single, I don't know what to do." I said, "All right, here's- here's what you do. Come on down to South London. I want you to go to this exhibit that's happening at the Black Cultural Archives in Brixton."

Steven Bartlett 51:38 Mm-hmm.

Paul C. Brunson 51:39 "And I want you to go down there, and you- you just tell me what happened." She went down, she was like, "Oh my God, it was crazy. I met blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." And- and- and- and the point was that she put herself in a place where she was a quote unquote scarce commodity. If you- if you were to look at it in- in economic terms, which I like, you know, that's exactly what she did, and she met incredible people. Now, did she have romantic, uh, connection there? No, but she walked out of there with two friends that she's kept in touch with, you know, for a year plus. So think about where your interests lie, but where you can step out and be different, where you can be unique. You can do that in every aspect of your life, but you know what the underlying driver is to being able to do that is self-esteem. Because the higher self-esteem you have, the less external validation you need.

Steven Bartlett 52:36 The less you need to conform to the environment.

Paul C. Brunson 52:38 Exactly. Even, there's some great studies that show that the higher self-esteem you have, the less you need to have someone who's traditionally attractive.

Steven Bartlett 52:49 Interesting.

Paul C. Brunson 52:49 Yeah. B- b- because you start to see all of the value, all- all the beautiful nature and behaviors, uh, and- and physicality of someone, and you don't need to walk down the street and have everyone say, "He looks like, he- he's so beautiful or she's so beautiful."

Steven Bartlett 53:08 Mm-hmm.

Paul C. Brunson 53:08 You know you have value in that person, so therefore... You know, and- and so high self-esteem is indicative of so many aspects of our life, and you could show up, get that premium effect if you have high- high

Paul C. Brunson 53:20 self-esteem.

Steven Bartlett 53:20 I've never heard anyone talk about this before, 'cause, and that is so interesting, 'cause I- I was... Every time I hear an idea, I think we all at home, everyone listening to this will kinda sense check the concept on, like, friends they know and people they know. And I- and I would say that of all of my, of everybody I know, the people that are typically lower self-esteem are those that are most focused on appearances and looks.

Paul C. Brunson 53:42 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 53:42 In fact, there's one of my friends who, when he- he called me one day in the gym and said, "Uh, I'm not sure about," his current partner. Um, and I went like, "Why, what's up?" He goes, "You know, like, when I walk into a restaurant with her on my arm, I just don't know how it looks." Literally that's what he said to me.

Paul C. Brunson 53:57 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 53:57 And I remember having the conversation with him like, "Bro, you are screwed if that's what you're judging this individual based on, how they look on your arm."

Paul C. Brunson 54:03 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 54:04 But it's a, but it's a consequence of his own need for validation from the person he- he's with. And th- and then it's no surprise that the other correlation you see is those people are probab- still single. Those are my still, friends that are still single. The ones that care the most about that, that concurrently have the most, the lowest self-esteem are also the ones that are still missing probably great people for looking at the wrong things.

Paul C. Brunson 54:30 Th- th- there you go, that- that- that's why we need to be in a state of flourishing ourselves b- before we go out there. 'Cause- 'cause think, if- if he was able to just take a breather, work on his self-esteem-

Steven Bartlett 54:40 Facts.

Paul C. Brunson 54:41 There's so many things you could do boost your self-esteem. Think of how incredible his next relationship would be.

Steven Bartlett 54:46 Facts.

Paul C. Brunson 54:47 Yeah.Yeah, self- self-esteem is- is really where it's at. Like, it's- it's underrated.

Steven Bartlett 54:53 That's so interesting, this idea that when we have low self-esteem, we'll care more about how the person looks because they are... We believe that they can boost our self-esteem by just being next to them. That's crazy.

Paul C. Brunson 55:06 Yeah, a- and- well, more so, we believe that society accepts them, and we won't be shamed by society-

Steven Bartlett 55:15 Hmm.

Paul C. Brunson 55:15 ... as a result of being with them, right? Because we want the validation from society when we have low self-esteem. But if you have high self-esteem, you say, "You know what? This is my partner and I don't care what you think." (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 55:28 I don't give a fuck, yeah, yeah.

Paul C. Brunson 55:28 Like, yeah, it doesn't matter what you think.

Steven Bartlett 55:29 I'm happy.

Paul C. Brunson 55:30 I'm happy.

Steven Bartlett 55:30 Yeah.

Paul C. Brunson 55:31 Then you can walk down the street with anyone.

Steven Bartlett 55:33 Hmm. And if you encountered, in your work as a matchmaker back in the day, someone who has low self-esteem, what would you suggest them to do? Would it- would it be therapy? Would- was there something small they could do in their life, a first step they could take?

Paul C. Brunson 55:48 Yeah, I mean, so- so what we would do with the agency is we would not even start matchmaking them until we went through months and months and months of coaching, right? Now, what are some things that you could do, practical things you could do? It's about practicing self-compassion is a great way to boost self-esteem. So, that could be journaling, that could be meditating, that could be exercising. It also is about setting goals, achievable goals, and accomplishing those goals. That helps to boost your self-esteem. On the pathway to mastering something boosts self-esteem. For example, during lockdown, I started learning the- the piano, right? Started learning it. And once I got to phase two of my little piano, you know, at home tutorial, I got a little boost up, "Okay, I can do a little thing." And then I played, uh, Wu-Tang Clan, Cash Rules Everything Around Me. I did C.R.E.A.M on my piano. And just doing that boosts self-esteem, right? So, the mastery of something small. Self-compassion, surrounding yourself with other people who have self-esteem, high self-esteem. These are some basic ways to help to boost it.

Steven Bartlett 57:03 I- I was thinking a lot about this, and I said, um, I said to one of my friends the other day about this idea of keeping commitments to yourself. And I think I was talking about it with Chris Williamson as well, about the commitments we keep to ourselves when no one is watching feed into our self-image. Like, I think some of us think that self-esteem is what we've, like, accomplished in life, or what we haven't accomplished in life. But if we narrow it right down and zoom right into, like, this morning, I told myself I was gonna get out of bed at 9:00, but I hit the snooze button. Now, it seems trivial, but in that one decision to not keep a commitment to yourself, you wrote a little line into this, the Paul Brunson story, which is actually an instruction manual that governs your life. And the- the line you wrote into that story is, "I'm the type of person that frequently isn't able to do what I want to do."

Paul C. Brunson 57:53 Right.

Steven Bartlett 57:53 And that's an instruction that you then, when you go to work, that when you show up, when, you know, you think about your big ambitions in life, it's an instruction, it's a line of code written into who you are. So, I've got really obsessed with this idea of these small commitments. And the great thing about small things is they're easy to do and also easy not to do, but they're also easy to do. But we... Because they're easy not to do and because they seem small and trivial, we tend to overlook them.

Paul C. Brunson 58:18 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 58:18 So, this idea that, like, start by keeping these small commitments to yourself that you make could be the- the pathway to the big results that we're seeking. You know, 'cause we look up at these- these figures on Instagram and on social media that are like, saying earlier, like, running ultra-marathons, and they're starting these businesses, and-

Paul C. Brunson 58:34 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 58:35 ... killing the game. And we go, "How the fuck did they get up there? It must have been one big decision they made."

Paul C. Brunson 58:41 It's baby steps, you know, baby steps. And- and you said something that I think is very important within self-esteem, and that is, is that you've exercised it. There- there's an action.

Steven Bartlett 58:51 Mm-hmm.

Paul C. Brunson 58:52 It's not just about, "I'm going to set my goal as I'm gonna wake up at a certain time, or I'm gonna set..." No, it's that you have, you woke up-

Steven Bartlett 59:01 Mm-hmm.

Paul C. Brunson 59:01 ... at a certain time. You- you've- you've exercised it. This is the key piece. And it is, it's- it's about all of those small steps. It's about the consistency of the small steps. And I think you- you've seen this, you must have seen this in your li- life, is that, what that does is it builds habits that you then build upon.

Steven Bartlett 59:18 Mm-hmm.

Paul C. Brunson 59:18 And then what you'll notice is, is that the- the tasks become bigger-

Steven Bartlett 59:22 Mm-hmm.

Paul C. Brunson 59:22 ... and bigger and bigger. But you're able to do it because you have the foundation of those smaller

Paul C. Brunson 59:27 tasks.

Steven Bartlett 59:27 I've often wondered if there's a generation that are kind of trapped between how things used to be, which is, you know, meeting people in your village, down at church, in real life, and then there was this sort of digital surge where most people now meet online. I wonder if there's, like, this generation that are trapped in between the two where they were of a certain age where their, everyone around them was kind of meeting, um, in real life, they didn't manage to meet someone, then the digital age exploded, and it's literally like this vertical line up when you look at the graphs. Just suddenly, everyone's meeting online. And they don't have the digital skills, they don't have the social media, they don't know how to, like, upload a photo.

Paul C. Brunson 1:00:10 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:11 But their way of dating, this IRL way of dating, is now gone out of fashion and no one's doing it.

Paul C. Brunson 1:00:16 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:17 And they would roughly be, if I had to hazard a guess at their age, they're probably 35?

Paul C. Brunson 1:00:25 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:26 Plus now?

Paul C. Brunson 1:00:27 Thir- thir- 35 plus, but it's- it's the 50, the 50-year-olds.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:32 Interesting.

Paul C. Brunson 1:00:32 Or should I say the 45 to 50-

Steven Bartlett 1:00:34 Oh, those as well, yeah. Okay.

Paul C. Brunson 1:00:35 ... are- are getting hit. And the reason why is- is exactly what you're saying, but then what's happened i- So, the number one age of new daters in the world is age 18, right? We see this on the dating apps, 18, people download the dating apps, they're out on the dating scene. But you know what the number two age range is?

Steven Bartlett 1:00:56 Well, I know because you said it, but 55.

Paul C. Brunson 1:00:58 50, right?

Steven Bartlett 1:00:59 Yeah.

Paul C. Brunson 1:00:59 And why? It's because of empty nest syndrome.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:02 Ah.

Paul C. Brunson 1:01:03 You and your partner, you've had two children, they go off to university. You look and you say, "I don't even know you anymore. I don't know you, so peace, I'm gone." And then you break up, and then you reenter the dating market, and you're like, "Oh, my God. We, we didn't have dating apps when I was doing this." And you're completely confused as to what to do. But I'm gonna tell you something wild, and that is, is they end up doing quite well. You know why? Because they show up as their authentic self. What we've loo- what we've been learning, I think on social media for so long, is, you know, create your representative.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:42 Yeah.

Paul C. Brunson 1:01:42 You go to e- oh, 80%, maybe even 90% of folks' Instagram, it's just their representative. It's- it's- it's not them, right? And so on these dating apps, etc., it's the representative. But a lot of these people who have never used an app before, they go online, they're, they- they- they write down the imperfect profile. They- they- they write, they talk about their, what they're scared of, what- what their fears are, their vulnerabilities. They post the photos without filters, right? Because they don't even know how to use a filter. And you think they're going to not do well, and they end up doing extraordinarily well, because they show up as their authentic self. What the data is showing us more than ever is that authenticity is what wins. Leaning into your quirks, leaning into the things that make you extraordinary. You know, I- I- I- I say this all the time to- to- to people who I've coached, and that is, is that think about you, right? There have been billions of people who have walked this planet before you, but no one ever walked this Earth with the same experiences as you, or the same skills. And guess what? Right now, eight billion people in the world, no one sees the world exactly like you see it. No one has your skills, no one looks precisely like you. And guess what? It gets even better, because no one who will ever live on this planet will ever look precisely like you, talk precisely like you, see the world precisely like you. So therefore, guess what? You are extraordinary. You are truly special. You are truly unique. There's no one ever like you. So if you own that, you win.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:27 What if I'm an arsehole?

Paul C. Brunson 1:03:29 You- you... (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:03:31 Do I win?

Paul C. Brunson 1:03:31 Well, you know what? So are you a narcissistic psychopath asshole? Like...

Steven Bartlett 1:03:35 No, I mean, like if you, if you, if you don't like who you are, you don't wanna put that out there. You wanna, you know, filter it, you know, Facetune it.

Paul C. Brunson 1:03:42 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:43 Trim it, cut it, expand it.

Paul C. Brunson 1:03:45 No, I'm with you. I'm with you. So yes, many of us don't like, you know, various parts of who we are. The key is to embrace the good, but going back to Carol Ryff's six dimensions of psychological wellbeing, self-acceptance is to say, "You know what? These three things I do, yeah, assholes do those three things."

Steven Bartlett 1:04:04 But do I lay that out?

Paul C. Brunson 1:04:05 No. Well, here's what you... In a dating app?

Steven Bartlett 1:04:07 Mm-hmm.

Paul C. Brunson 1:04:08 No. In a dating app, you lay out what it is that you desire, what it is that you are seeking. But are you transparent about those things when you're interacting with them? Absolutely, you're transparent. Because if those asshole traits are part of you, it's going to show up in your behavior. So you alert the person ahead of time, "I'm working on these things."

Steven Bartlett 1:04:30 I don't wanna scare them off.

Paul C. Brunson 1:04:31 No, you don't, but you want to be your true self. But it depends on, on what kinda trait we're talking about, though. So, I mean, you'd have to give me examples.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:39 Okay, I'll give you an example. I, um, this is, I'm playing a role here, okay? So people don't clip this and put it on the internet. But say that I had a toxic trait where I get ultra needy, and I'm like very jealous, and I'm very easily triggered by anything that makes me feel like you're cheating on me or you're... You know, I'm like insecure from like maybe, you know, something that happened when I was younger or whatever.

Paul C. Brunson 1:05:03 Okay, this is good. A lot of people have this. So you'd be very anxious. This sounds very...

Steven Bartlett 1:05:07 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Paul C. Brunson 1:05:08 ... uh, uh, typical of- of- of an anxious, uh, attachment style. So the question is, are you working on it? Because if you're-

Steven Bartlett 1:05:15 Hmm.

Paul C. Brunson 1:05:15 ... if you're working on that, and you acknowledge that, that's someone that... That's a great relationship to be in, 'cause someone is proactively working on their trauma. But if you tell me, "This is how I am, and I'm doing nothing about it-"

Steven Bartlett 1:05:29 Yeah.

Paul C. Brunson 1:05:29 ... well, that's a problem.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:31 I want this relationship so I can work on it with you.

Paul C. Brunson 1:05:33 No. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:05:35 (laughs)

Paul C. Brunson 1:05:35 The best time to work on this relationship is before you're in it. Goodbye.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:39 Yeah. (laughs)

Paul C. Brunson 1:05:39 That's pretty much what it is. And- and- but- but you know what? Those are the type of conversations that we should be having.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:45 How can I work on it before the relationship? So say in that case of insecure, jealous, anxious type. Does that mean like going to therapy and y- when you say working on it...

Paul C. Brunson 1:05:55 Yeah, okay. Great question. So l- l- l- let's first say this about therapy. I have tons of friends who are some of the top therapists in the world. Love it, but when you look at the satisfaction rate that most people report going to therapists, very low, very low. If you look at the access to therapists or top therapists, very hard to get access. So most people cannot go. So I'm, I- I'm consciously always saying, okay, it's important to be able to go if you can, but most of this work, you have to do on your, on your own. First part is, and this is not me to be self-serving here, but I think podcasts are incredible...

Steven Bartlett 1:06:35 Mm.

Paul C. Brunson 1:06:35 ... in creating awareness. But I will say on this particular podcast, quite honestly, you've had all of the greats within this space. All of the greats from, we talked about Dr. Waldinger to, uh, Gabor Mate. Like you've had all of the greats who will give you a taste of what you need to create that awareness. And then you dig deeper.... you purchase the book. Yeah, you purchase the book and then you do the work in the book. Gabor Maté, all the time he talks about, "You know what you, you should do? Let's meditate, let's journal." Like, he prescribes, he sets it out. But a lot of us don't want to do that level of investigation.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:14 Put it away. We want quick, easy and now.

Paul C. Brunson 1:07:16 And now, yeah. But guess what? You're not going to get to that level of flourishing if that's all you desire. Like, wh-

Steven Bartlett 1:07:26 Ugh.

Paul C. Brunson 1:07:26 Y- I mean-

Steven Bartlett 1:07:27 (laughs) Ugh.

Paul C. Brunson 1:07:29 ... mediocrity is common. Like, being mediocre, should I say, is common. The moment that you can step o- one level above being mediocre, in society today, you typically are seen. That's how low the bar is. It's the same way in relationships, but it's also the same way in the relationship that you have with yourself. If you do any bit of work, you become exceptionally better, for you, for your partner. Just, just a little bit of work. Learn to act- actively listen. L- learn to, learn to just simply respond, which is active listening, versus reacting.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:09 That's a game changer. It's the s- it's the s- uh, y- there's this idea of, like, metacognition which is thinking about your thinking. And when me and my partner have a disagreement now, I l- it's almost like I now have this metacognition. It's like I'm, I'm watching the situation and watching myself in the situation, and it makes such a big deal. My girlfriend was saying something to me the other day and in my head I'm going, "Think about how you're listening. Make sure you're listening intently. Make sure she feels heard and under-" That's what my brain is saying now.

Paul C. Brunson 1:08:38 Yeah. That's it.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:39 But before, it was all like, "Fuck, urrgh."

Paul C. Brunson 1:08:40 Oh, yeah. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:08:41 "Wait till I, I, I need to let her know how she's wrong."

Paul C. Brunson 1:08:44 Yeah. But see, this is the work.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:46 Yeah.

Paul C. Brunson 1:08:47 This is the work that we're talking about, that you are doing, that is work-

Steven Bartlett 1:08:51 Yeah.

Paul C. Brunson 1:08:52 ... but it's paying dividends.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:54 Yeah.

Paul C. Brunson 1:08:54 It's like the return on investment on learning the skills is infinite.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:00 Mm-hmm.

Paul C. Brunson 1:09:00 It's inf- 'Cause I'm sure you take that into your business.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:03 Mm-hmm.

Paul C. Brunson 1:09:03 You take that into, uh, social situations. Active listening, stepping outside of yourself. The, the, the, these skills change your life. And to go back to Dr. Waldinger's work, is when you're able to make these small adjustments in your life, you're happier, less stress, you live longer, you make more money. Th- the rewards are infinite.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:25 This older ge- th- the generation that we said we think might be trapped a little bit in a tr- tr- technological transition, one of the things my friends that are part of that generation say to me is that there's just no people left anymore.

Paul C. Brunson 1:09:38 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:38 And one of my friends has actually said to me a few times that she needs to put herself in a situation where she's gonna meet lots of men, where there's lots of men. And she gets particularly annoyed when her friendship group don't wanna go to the places, 'cause they're all paired off-

Paul C. Brunson 1:09:52 Okay.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:53 ... where th- where they don't wanna go to, uh, uh, to an environment where there's lots of men. Does it matter? You talk about this in chapter four, the importance of the sex ratio.

Paul C. Brunson 1:10:00 Yes. Yeah, it d-

Steven Bartlett 1:10:01 Does it matter?

Paul C. Brunson 1:10:02 So, sex ratio is huge. The best example of sex ratio is look at what's happening in the farmland, so country areas of China, where you had th- basically the one child policy, where you see a heavy number of men. So, the sex ratio is the number of, uh, women to men, right? And so you look at the number of men. There's many more men than there are women in, in, in China, especially in the farm area of China. So, what, what does that mean? What that means is that women now have more negotiation power with the men. If you go back 40 years, you'd have to be married off by 18, 17, 16 in some of those areas. You would have no say as to who you could. Now, I literally just read an article where you have 30 plus year old women going into those areas saying, "We can choose whoever we want out here, you know?"

Steven Bartlett 1:10:57 Mm-hmm.

Paul C. Brunson 1:10:57 "We can do whatever we want." You have more negotiation power, but that also impacts the relationships that then do form. For example, look at most university campuses that now have majority women at the university campuses. What's happening in terms of sex at the campuses? Off the charts. Why? 'Cause you have a small pool of men who say, "You know what? We now have negotiation power. There, there, there's few of us. There's all these women out here." And, and, and what's, what's happening is the women are looking at the small pool of men and saying, "Okay, we only have access to these guys." The guys know, "Okay, we have access to all of these women, so therefore we're going to act a fool." You know? And what ends up happening is you end t- you end up seeing how relationships change, the formation changes based on sex ratio. So, looking at some of these macroeconomics, you can see how it does impact how a relationship is formed and then what happens in the relationship.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:03 Th- there's some environments that are, and there's some professions that are typically dominated by one gender, typically, for whatever reason. In the book, you talk about, like, engineering degree courses.

Paul C. Brunson 1:12:13 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:14 So, if I was a woman and I would say I was just, you know, I was 20 years old and I was desperate to find a man, going into a engineering degree course would put leverage on my side.

Paul C. Brunson 1:12:26 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:27 It's just something to think about. You know, people choosing jobs and environments to work in, if they are really trying to expose themselves to a gender balance that's in their favor, we're talking about heterosexual, heterosexual couples here, then that is something to consider.

Paul C. Brunson 1:12:40 It, it is. But even that point is controversial, right?

Steven Bartlett 1:12:44 Yeah. Why?

Paul C. Brunson 1:12:44 'Cause, 'cause, 'cause that point that you just mentioned, which I endorse, by the way...

Steven Bartlett 1:12:47 Then I'll cut it out. (laughs)

Paul C. Brunson 1:12:48 It's controversial. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:12:49 (laughs)

Paul C. Brunson 1:12:50 It's all controversial.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:51 Yeah.

Paul C. Brunson 1:12:52 No, but, but the reason why I say that point's controversial, but I love it, is because what you're saying is, you're saying, "Hey, young lady. You're going off, you're thinking about your career. Also start thinking about your...... long-term partner at the same time. I th- I feel as if a large narrative that's placed on us in Western society is knock out the education and the career, get all of that taken care of. Then once you have all of that wrapped up nicely, now you could focus on these other things in life. I have sat at the deathbed of two people in my life. I will never forget these moments, ever. What they did is they both said the same things. These were, you know, two different people, different times. They both died within 24 hours of me seeing them. They said, "Whew, this thing life, it goes by fast. It goes by fast." The second thing is they begin recounting the, the intimate relationships that they had with all of their... with, with their loved ones, you know? They're, they're, they're recollecting this. Now, there's other things that they'll talk about, certain regrets, wanting to be happier, wanting to have done certain things. But ultimately, it's about, "I remember the good times with the people I love the most." So, what's interesting to me about that is there's no talk about their career. There's no talk about what they accomplished professionally. There's no talk about what they learned in school. So, does that then mean that the most important facets of our life are the relationships that we form? I, I would say yes. And then if that's the case, why don't we focus on those things earlier? Let's focus on that. That's the reason why I lo- I love that statement 'cause yes. You know, I... my, my sons are 10 and 13. Already, I'm like, "Look, let's talk about your partners. Let's talk about how you're gonna go about doing this," because ultimately, that will be the most important decision that you make in life.

Steven Bartlett 1:15:02 So, let's talk about kids and dating, then. We talked about boomers a little bit. There's this word in your book pronounced hypergamy?

Paul C. Brunson 1:15:11 Yep, uh, hypergamy.

Steven Bartlett 1:15:12 That's exactly what I said.

Paul C. Brunson 1:15:14 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:15:15 Hy- hypergamy, hypergamy. Seeking partners of higher social status is notable in online dating. Well, what is, what is hypergamy?

Paul C. Brunson 1:15:24 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:15:25 And, and w- I wanna talk about Gen Zs 'cause you said a statement at the start of this conversation about them being the most successful in marriages, in your forecasting.

Paul C. Brunson 1:15:34 Yes, yes. Okay. So, all right. Hypergamy is a topic that gets a lot of pushback, but it is what it is. We can't, we, we cannot, um, disagree with all of the data. And what the d- what, and what that suggests is essentially someone who is seeking a partner of equal or greater resources.

Steven Bartlett 1:15:58 M- men and women?

Paul C. Brunson 1:15:59 Well-

Steven Bartlett 1:15:59 Heterosexual.

Paul C. Brunson 1:15:59 ... it's, it's, it's, it's, it's always categorized as heterosexual women-

Steven Bartlett 1:16:04 Okay.

Paul C. Brunson 1:16:05 ... seeking a heterosexual man of equal or greater resources. And the data that typically people point to is when they look at, um, degrees, college degrees, and they look at women in, in, in online dating. So, they say, "Okay, let's look at, um, women in online dating across different dating apps, and we'll look at all of those with a college degree. Who is it that they typically swipe right on? Or who is it that they typically select?" And on average, it's men who have at least a college degree or greater, master's degree, all right? And the whole pushback that I think ends up happening is you see people say, "Well, there it is right there. These women are all opportunists. That's what they're looking for. They're looking for a opportunity." And I say, "Hold on for a second. Do you realize, first, that for hundreds of thousands of years, this was the structure?" This was the only structure you needed. We've talked about it. You must have chosen, if you're a woman, you must have chosen a partner that had equal or greater resources if you wanted to survive to next week.

Steven Bartlett 1:17:16 So, why is it still here?

Paul C. Brunson 1:17:17 Or next year. Well, you know what? Because the patriarchy has not been destroyed. It, it has, it has not been destabilized. It's because modern relationships, these relationships around self-expression, just started in 1960. Th- th- I mean, I, I think it's, it is fascinating to think that women just began to have choice. And remember, we're talking about these weird Western, ind- educated, industrialized, right? Rich, democratic nations have just begun to have a bit of choice. You know what I mean?

Steven Bartlett 1:17:53 Mm-hmm.

Paul C. Brunson 1:17:53 A bit of choice, just now. So therefore, we're living in a day and age where you, you can't, you, you can't argue against this. You know, uh, uh, or you, you, you k- when I say you can't argue against it is, is you have to understand why that is. But the reason why I say I believe that Gen Z will have the strongest marriages is I also think they'll have the fewest marriages of any generation. Marriage is, without question, on the decline. Without question, you can't argue, cannot argue, it's on the decline. But what we're going to see is we're going to see a small percentage of people who decide to join in union in what we're today calling marriage, and they will have exceptionally strong marriages because they'll have consciously chosen to go into this union. They'll have the tools, and they'll help each other to, you know, to, to self-evolve.

Paul C. Brunson 1:18:52 So-

Steven Bartlett 1:18:52 And less kids.

Paul C. Brunson 1:18:53 They'll have less kids, yeah. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:18:55 Are you concerned about that? The sort of decline of people having kids?

Paul C. Brunson 1:18:59 Yeah. I'm, I'm quite aware of, of, of some of this data, right? And this replacement rate, this rate of us not having enough children to meet the replacement rate, which I think on average is typically, like, 2.1, right? So, you think that in the United States or in the UK, in Japan where I know this is, this is hitting heavy. Uh, really all throughout...... most of the world, but I wanna get to where it's not happening, but through most of the world what you have is you have people not having enough children to meet the replacement rate.

Steven Bartlett 1:19:34 What's the replacement rate?

Paul C. Brunson 1:19:35 So that is the number of new births that need to happen in order to replace the aging, dying population.

Steven Bartlett 1:19:43 Ah, okay.

Paul C. Brunson 1:19:44 So typically it's, it's like, it's 2.1, right? Uh, but we're not. Couples are getting together, they're having 1.8, you know, or i- i- or one or whatever it may be. Now, what that means is it means precisely what you said, and that is is that we will have an older population, and as a result of having an older population, we won't be able to do all the things that we need for that older population. Think about the tax base. Who's going to support the older population in terms of monetary resources? Physically, who's going to be in the nursing homes to support an older population, or who's going to be at home, or who ... And so the underpopulation is, I believe, it is a real issue. However, it gets very political, and the reason why I think it gets political, and, and I've seen, uh, have, have, have you heard of, uh, neonatalism-

Steven Bartlett 1:20:40 No.

Paul C. Brunson 1:20:40 ... and natalism?

Steven Bartlett 1:20:41 All right. What's that?

Paul C. Brunson 1:20:42 Uh, so it is when you begin to look at underpopulation based on nationality or ethnicity. And when you begin to look deeper you say, "Hold on for a second. The world is beginning to slowly become underpopulated, but if you look at Nigeria-"

Steven Bartlett 1:21:05 Yeah, it's goin' off.

Paul C. Brunson 1:21:06 It's goin' off.

Steven Bartlett 1:21:07 Yeah (laughs) .

Paul C. Brunson 1:21:08 I have no Nigerian friend that doesn't have, like, eight, 10 brothers and sisters-

Steven Bartlett 1:21:12 (laughs) Yeah.

Paul C. Brunson 1:21:12 ... you know?

Steven Bartlett 1:21:12 Yeah.

Paul C. Brunson 1:21:12 And t- like, to this day. And if you look at ... It's not just Nigeria, like, you look at West Africa, you look at different pockets of mostly what's considered to be Black populations, brown populations, you see that the population is growing. You know, w- when I, um ... David McQueen did an exhibit here in London that blew me away. It was c- it was at the Tate Gallery. It was called The Year Three. He took photos of every year three class in London and he puts hundreds and hundreds of photos up in the Tate Gallery. And you walk in, right? And at that time, my son was year three. So I walk in, and you look at this thing, and you say, "Oh my gosh, this is what London is going to look like in the future."

Steven Bartlett 1:22:00 Ah.

Paul C. Brunson 1:22:00 And you know what it is? It's mostly Black, mostly Muslim. And I think that what you're seeing in the natalism, neonatalism movement is you're seeing a lot of people who are scared by that.

Steven Bartlett 1:22:14 Mm-hmm.

Paul C. Brunson 1:22:15 And they say to themselves, "Okay, what we need to do is we need to figure out how we can produce more offspring of a particular ethnicity-

Steven Bartlett 1:22:27 Uh-huh.

Paul C. Brunson 1:22:27 ... or of a particular nationality." You've begun to see presidential candidates in the United States talk about this. Uh, it is, I think, an extremely dangerous category and area to, to, to, to, to, to, to, uh, to, to ... or, or, or, or an idea. It's a dangerous idea to, to, to put forward. I- in the future it's going to be one of the top issues that, that we're debating.

Steven Bartlett 1:22:56 Because if you play that forward, not long, you wouldn't have to play it forward very long to realize that there's certain races that were b- that were once the majority that would then become a minority race.

Paul C. Brunson 1:23:07 Oh, yeah. In the UK, it's already been predicted that by, I think it's roughly 2050, that you're going to have roughly half or greater than half of the population in the UK be Black or brown. I'm not talking about, uh, London. I'm not talking about England. I'm talking about in the UK. That, to me, is absolutely ... It's mind-blowing. It's mind-blowing to think about that. And when some people think about that, they're excited about by, by, by that future.