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The Diary of a CEOThe Diary of a CEO

Pret & Itsu Founder: How I Built TWO Billion Dollar Brands At The Same Time!: Julian Metcalfe | E173

Julian Metcalfe is the founder of Pret A Manger and Itsu, and since he’s been a young man has been on a mission to change the way we think about eating out and how we eat. His companies are together worth over $3 billion. Topics: 0:00 Intro 01:32 Early years 06:00 The affect your parents had on you 12:01 The importance of transparency 17:44 Affection & self esteem 27:27 Was money driving you? 30:59 What was the "specialness" that made Pret successful 37:06 How I run my businesses 50:03 Selling Pret 56:14 Starting ITSU 58:01 The hardest day of your career 01:02:14 Finding out you had a daughter 01:07:14 What are you scared of? 01:08:45 Your happiness recipe 01:11:31 The last guest question Are you ready to think like a CEO? Gain access to the 100 CEOs newsletter here: ⁠https://bit.ly/100-ceos-newsletter Itsu: https://www.itsu.com/ Listen on: Apple podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast... Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/7iQXmUT... FOLLOW ► Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/steven/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/SteveBartlettSC Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/steven-bartlett-56986834/ Sponsors: Vodafone Business - https://www.vodafone.co.uk/business/sme-business?cid=psoc-ent/vhub/doaceo/aws/3.22/ntst Craftd - https://g2ul0.app.link/gZ8in6Dsvsb Huel - https://g2ul0.app.link/wjmvak5nAsb Carpets gifted from Tapi - https://g2ul0.app.link/tDr1dkXNKsb Chandelier & Lights gifted from Tom Kirk Lighting - https://g2ul0.app.link/h2nesEZNKsb

Julian MetcalfeguestSteven Bartletthost
Aug 29, 20221h 19mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 1:32

    Intro

    1. JM

      I love failure. (instrumental music) I fail every day. I don't care about it, just get on with it. (instrumental music) You had Pret, and now you've got itsu. You are absolutely an entrepreneur at heart. As all the fish are going in one way, you suddenly look round and you think, "Damn it, I'm gonna go the other way."

    2. SB

      When you look back at Pret, a business you ended up selling for two billion.

    3. JM

      I have no idea what I was doing. It wasn't planned. Endless moments of magic, moments of bizarre creativity and confidence.

    4. SB

      What was motivating you then?

    5. JM

      I wanted to make a difference. I suddenly found myself with this responsibility to open a restaurant. From that start, we built 76 of them. We started developing it so it could become the future.

    6. SB

      The absence of both parents.

    7. JM

      He was quite distant, my father. My mother committed suicide when I was seven, that created a loneliness. To create something new, you've gotta put yourself in slightly unchartered territory.

    8. SB

      Business isn't just business to you, is it? It's not just about the money.

    9. JM

      No, and it shouldn't be to anyone. I'm far more interested in the relationships with the customer and the staff and the product. I was obsessed by that. Obsessed. It's incredible what people can do if people don't trust them, people don't nurture them, 'cause they're too busy being selfish, nurturing themselves.

    10. SB

      What's the worst crisis you've ever had in your business?

    11. JM

      I daren't even wanna go into it.

    12. SB

      I wanna hear it. So, without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

  2. 1:32 – 6:00

    Early years

    1. SB

      Julian?

    2. JM

      Yeah.

    3. SB

      "I was exposed to a number of hardships as a child." You said that. What did you mean?

    4. JM

      I love the way you start off with a real killer. Um, I can't remember who I said that to. Um, and I was expe-... Well, listen, I- I'm not, I'm not alone, by the way. Other, a great many people watching this or listening to this were exposed to hardships far greater than mine. But the death of my mother when I was seven, she, my mother committed suicide on Boxing Day, uh, so I was left... And my parents were divorced. So we, we lived, uh, the three of us, my brother, sister, and I, lived with our mum, but that was a difficult thing, that was, uh, uh, uh, that created a loneliness.

    5. SB

      Did you, did you realize that at the time? Did you realize the impact that incident ha- had had on you growing up?

    6. JM

      Probably not. No, I think I, that, you don't, when you're lonely, you don't really, aged eight or nine or 12, you don't really know you're lonely, you just, you don't feel whole, I suppose. You don't feel completely whole. Other people seemed to be jollier than I was at that age, that's for sure.

    7. SB

      As an adult, did you ever look back and try and understand the significance of that particular ev- event, and how it might have shaped you in hindsight?

    8. JM

      I think the event, I, I'm, I'm, I don't know if it's shaped me, but it's definitely added, um, a complexity to my character which has made me, which has helped shape my, my, my relationship with people, my relationship with work, my relationship with everything. Yeah, there's no doubt. It would be s- silly to pretend that it didn't.

    9. SB

      Reminds me of something that, um, I talk about this guy a lot. This guy said to me, he came on this podcast, he was Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant's trainer, and he talked about how some of the things that happened to us early that are traumatic end up being the cause of our, what he called "light side", which is the talent, our brilliance, the thing we become known for.

    10. JM

      Yeah.

    11. SB

      But they're also the contributor to our dark side, which can be our complexity, our insecurities, all of those kinds of things. Um, do you think that event so early on, or any event early on in your life, that particular event, let's focus on that particular event, had a contributing factor to what people would consider to be your brilliance, this incredible career you've had?

    12. JM

      I think, I think, listen, I think, I think people, people work, people become obsessive, and they become successful, and they work extremely hard for all kinds of different reasons. Um, they want to become relevant, they want to be, they want maybe to be cared for or seek admiration they didn't get, or they have parents who didn't acknowledge them. I- I- I really, I don't know. All I know is it must have probably ha- of course it had some effect on the way I've, I work and the view of my life and have lived my life. Yeah. But I, but I think, um, over time, over, over many years, it's, it's, it, it's waned, um, as I've, as I've kind of developed as a person. I, I, also, I'm, I'm fr- I'm nervous about even suggesting that, you know, to be fulfilled and to make change and to really contribute to society, you have to come from a dark place, 'cause I don't think you do. Um, certainly not as, as dark as, as, as something like that.

    13. SB

      Uh, I, you know, I, I think about, when I meet a lot of obsessive people-

    14. JM

      Yeah.

    15. SB

      ... tends to be the case that something quite, uh, extreme had poked them-

    16. JM

      Yeah.

    17. SB

      ... in their life at some point to make them, give them that chip on their shoulder.

    18. JM

      Yeah.

    19. SB

      Whether it's Michael Jordan or Kobe, or whether it's Eddie Hearn-

    20. JM

      Yeah.

    21. SB

      ... and that feeling of living in his father's shadow and the insecurity of that. And now these other, you know, the sons of billionaires that I meet who've built big fashion empires-

    22. JM

      Yeah.

    23. SB

      ... they're very, um, their very dominant fathers have, have made them incessive, obsessive by convincing them vicariously that they're not good enough, for example.

    24. JM

      Mm-hmm.

    25. SB

      And so, that's why I always, I always tend to go in search of understanding what, where that obsessiveness comes from.

    26. JM

      No, you're right, too. And there's, there's bound to be a correlation, as you know, from all the, all, all, so many of the people you've interviewed and all, and you're clearly very empathetic, that you will find a, a train- uh, uh, a common denominator there. But it's not, it's, it's not everything. Certainly not for... For a great many people listening or watching who, who have not faced tragedy or sadness like that, um, they need to know that it's, it's not an essential part of being able to get on and, and do, do good, do extraordinary work.

  3. 6:00 – 12:01

    The affect your parents had on you

    1. JM

    2. SB

      What about your father?... relationship-

    3. JM

      My father was, uh, he was quite distant, my father. Um, we were n- he was kind of old-fashioned. My parents were very, very different. My mother was a Ukrainian immigrant, uh, and, and f- and kind of wild and wonderful, and my father was really kind of aris- posh, aristocratic Englishman, rather distant and cold. He then made a mistake of marrying, um, someone for a very short period of time when I was about 10, 11, that that ended very, that did not end well for any of us, uh, the three children. Um, so it was not a great time between seven and, and 16. It was a messy, a messy, uh, childhood, I think-

    4. SB

      Did you ever-

    5. JM

      ... filled with problems.

    6. SB

      Did you ever go in search of answers as to why your mother made that decision?

    7. JM

      Uh, no, I, I, I, I didn't. I didn't, because not m- not that many people knew my mother, actually. We, we lived alone with her. Um, I, she was just, she was just had s- serious mental issues, that she was just ill, and, and sad, and, and it's awful, you know, terrible, terrible. It's common. I mean, listen, this is common. This happens all the time. Um, this, this happens too much, um, too much, too common.

    8. SB

      That, that distance from, um, the absence of both parents, that's, that's kind of what I've, I've ascertained from what you've said so far. There was an absence of, of both parents to some degree. What I, I f- I resonate with that, for my own reasons.

    9. JM

      Yeah.

    10. SB

      I, um, my mum was, was working so hard that she decided to end up sleeping in the shop, so I was the, I'm the youngest of four as well, and typically what you find, I think, is the youngest one gets treated like the older ones-

    11. JM

      Yeah.

    12. SB

      ... at a certain point, especially if it's a boy. And so by the age of 10, neither of my parents are there when I wake up and neither of them are there when I go to sleep.

    13. JM

      Yeah.

    14. SB

      On one hand, that gives me great independence.

    15. JM

      Yeah.

    16. SB

      It means that I stopped going to school-

    17. JM

      Yeah.

    18. SB

      ... because no one's gonna punish me if I don't.

    19. JM

      Yeah, yeah.

    20. SB

      Um, and that is maybe, in my case, what led me to becoming, in my view, an entrepreneur. There was a void of, um, responsibilit- or sort of accountability which led to independence, so I started selling things and doing what I liked. That made me very bad at following rules later in life.

    21. JM

      Yeah.

    22. SB

      Which I think is, I'm going back and connecting the dots in hindsight-

    23. JM

      Mm-hmm.

    24. SB

      But I think that led me to be an entre-

    25. JM

      No, I'm sure that's true. That would make complete sense. Um, so both of us had that in common. But then, you know, so, so, so do a great many others. Um, in addition to my, I, my, I had a real problem with authority. I went to really old-fashioned schools-

    26. SB

      Right.

    27. JM

      I was sent away to, to schools age seven, and in both cases, the schools were really, really old-fashioned and, and in my opinion terribly badly run, with all kinds of bad things going on. It was just shocking. So I had a really bad relationship with authority. I felt it completely let me down on every level. Um, I still do actually, so maybe that's why I branched out on my own early to try and- I just, you know, we are, we are, so many of us are let down by f- people in power and authority, I find. Uh, you know, it's sad, it's irritating. It really is irritating, actually. Doesn't matter if it's people who run companies or people in politics or people who run schools. It's just, particularly schools. I think, um, people who are in charge of young ch- children need to nurture them and look after them and t- and help them build their confidence and strength, not put them through a meat grinder.

    28. SB

      That's what happened in your school?

    29. JM

      The, uh, the first, uh, private school I went to was just, just shocking, yeah, really, really. I'm, I don't even wanna go into because it would just up- upset your view, your view. I'd be back-

    30. SB

      I want to hear it.

  4. 12:01 – 17:44

    The importance of transparency

    1. JM

      I get the feeling you, you, you thrive off transparency. You like it. You face things head-on, and you like people around you to face things head-on. That's, that's the way to build.It's the only way.

    2. SB

      Yeah, I've been on the journey. I think- I think when I was a bit more insecure, I think transparency felt like a risk. And then, as I've developed my s- in myself and also-

    3. JM

      Yeah.

    4. SB

      ... in my businesses, transparency felt like a great motivator-

    5. JM

      Great thing. Yeah.

    6. SB

      Um, and I actually said to my team, some of which are in the room now, "At the start of this month, that every quarter I'm going to show you all the financials of our entire business-"

    7. JM

      Yeah.

    8. SB

      "... so you can see everything. And also, you're gonna see that I've never taken a pound out of this business, ever." Because I want them to understand, I- 'cause in that ex- that's an example for me, transparency in a business context being a real big-

    9. JM

      Yeah.

    10. SB

      ... big motivator. Then one of the younger girls on the team, when I was in the car one day, s- turned to me and said, "By the way, you doing that completely changed my perception."

    11. JM

      Yeah. Yeah.

    12. SB

      Because I think- I think they thought that, like, I was making this money from doing this podcast, or whatever it is, or-

    13. JM

      Yeah.

    14. SB

      ... any of my business, and then taking the money into my pocket from- as it comes in. So, to show them that I've never-

    15. JM

      Yeah.

    16. SB

      ... taken a penny ever, I- i- kind of, I think-

    17. JM

      Yeah.

    18. SB

      ... aligns us in some way.

    19. JM

      No, no, listen, it's transparency and people being open and honest and building trust is by far the most important characteristic e- ever. Th- the day I started my work for the last 40 years, it's- I've now realized it's what you should value and crave more than anything. It's worth everything. Transparency is everything. And so many people work in an environment where simply not there. They're just not used to it, they can't expect it, they can't demand it, and they're not gonna get it, and that's bad. Move job, change. Don't- don't- don't- you shouldn't work for people who aren't transparent. And that's- transparency's a wonderful thing.

    20. SB

      Can you define it?

    21. JM

      It gets honesty, a truth. Truth is wonderful.

    22. SB

      Can you define your definition of what you mean when you're saying transparency?

    23. JM

      Well, I mean, to keep it really simple, let's- let's- let's stick to the world of commerce. And the world of commerce is th- th- an- and probably politics, but I don't know, I have no understanding of politics and I've no inkling ever to be a politician, but in the world of commerce, there's not nearly as much transparency as there should be. So sharing information, sharing truth, saying what you feel, um, being honest with your- your- your colleagues, your teammates, as well as the people who work with you and for you. It's just- you can't take that sh- that stuff for granted because it doesn't happen in most places. Y- I don't know, you need a collective, um... You need- you need a- you need to- to, um... I- I don't know why. You tell me why. Why do you think 90% of businesses are not nearly as transparent as they should be and could be? We know what they are, so it's all about people protecting their own fears, it's about their own insecurities, about protecting their own pay, their bonuses. There are a thousand reasons why there's not the transparency we deserve as human beings.

    24. SB

      Because th- to achieve th- the truth, so say, like, I'm- just for- as an example, say I run an organic, um, vegetable store.

    25. JM

      Yep.

    26. SB

      I can, on one hand, go to the extra effort of actually being organic, which means m- it costs me more, I have to do a bunch of stuff in the supply chain, whatever, or I can say I am and get-

    27. JM

      Pretend to be, yeah.

    28. SB

      ... and get the same return.

    29. JM

      Exactly.

    30. SB

      Two decades ago, it would be very hard for you to find out I was lying because the world wasn't connected with the internet. There was no glass doors, social media, tweeting, instantaneous communication, so I think the world of business grew in a black box approach where y- the- your- your PR, your marketing, your messaging was painted out on the outside of your business by the marketing director. We're now in a glass box world-

  5. 17:44 – 27:27

    Affection & self esteem

    1. JM

    2. SB

      What about affection? One of the-

    3. JM

      Affection. Love.

    4. SB

      One of the things that- one of the things that was definitely absent from my childhood was affection.

    5. JM

      Yeah.

    6. SB

      I didn't even call my parents mom and dad. I still don't to this day.

    7. JM

      Right.

    8. SB

      Um, their absence I think was one part of that, but also just, I didn't have affection. So growing up, the thought of calling someone a friend-

    9. JM

      Yeah.

    10. SB

      ... a best friend still to this day makes me cringe. It's just a little bit...

    11. JM

      Affection. Yeah.

    12. SB

      In your case-

    13. JM

      God, th-

    14. SB

      ... are you an affectionate person?

    15. JM

      I-... I've never been asked that question. I have absolutely no idea h- how to answer it. Um, because do I compare myself to other people? Um, I have no idea.

    16. SB

      You don't know if you're affectionate or not?

    17. JM

      I think I'm affectionate, um-

    18. SB

      In your own way.

    19. JM

      But I also know, for years, I struggled with my, like a, like so many, with self-esteem, and, you know. Um, and I- I- I'm sure I felt completely unlovable for, for decades probably. I don't... I'm sure. Um, but then, you know, I- I- I've had, in my opinion, uh, I've been blessed with amazing relationships with friends and, and, and family. I mean, just completely blessed. And, and, and I'm not a baby, so I'm six, you know, I'm 62 years old. And so this, you know, I've, two of my children work with me. Uh, I mean, what more could you possibly dream of than that? So, I must have some (laughs) relationship with the concept of affection. What, how, or where it came from and how I grew it, I- I- I'm not entirely sure, because I certainly didn't get it from my mother and father. I must've got it from, from, from close friends, and, and maybe just looking and learning that there's no point trying to go through life without it. What you, what you give, you get back, you know? Pret A Manger started, you know, as a like, it became a kind of incredible family. And the warmth, and love, and care which went into the building of relationships in that company was breathtaking. It was like a family. We had started with one store and ended up with hundreds. But there was a time when it was truly extraordinary extended family. And that's, I think, where I grew to understand the power of, of, of, of deep affection, love, and trust. Yeah, it definitely came, for me, much later than for most people, yeah.

    20. SB

      You said there was, you think there was probably decades where you didn't love yourself.

    21. JM

      Yeah, well, I mean, decades as in, uh, in my teens and then in my 20s. Um, y- you, I don't know how good you are at, at, at reflecting and self-discovery. I'm, I'm kind of a five out of ten probably. I, I mean, I, I pushed myself therapy, and, and even doing this, I think, called the Hoffman. Have you heard about the Hoffman?

    22. SB

      Mm-hmm. He's coming here.

    23. JM

      Yeah, I did the Hoffman. He's kind of great. He's, he's... What a genius that guy was. But, so I try. What was your question? Oh, how long-

    24. SB

      No.

    25. JM

      ... the decades of self-loathing? I don't know.

    26. SB

      No, not how long, just what were the symptoms of, of that? So you ident-

    27. JM

      Just-

    28. SB

      Yeah.

    29. JM

      Just, just probably, um, just that ongoing feeling of being completely unworthy. That's what you get when you don't have parents so much, or, or loving... You're not nurtured, you know, so you feel lonely.

    30. SB

      You grow up with that-

  6. 27:27 – 30:59

    Was money driving you?

    1. SB

      When you look back at, um, s- starting Pret, we're talking about what's driving you there, was there any epiphanies around what was really driving you on that day when someone first came along and said they were gonna buy your company? 'Cause, for me, I thought I was being driven by money-

    2. JM

      Right.

    3. SB

      ... until someone offered me it, and then I thought, "Oh, God, there must be something else motivating me here."

    4. JM

      I don't know about that myself. It's... I've, I've of- I've often wondered. Did money and the pursuit of money ever drive me? I don't think so, because I think I s- I saw enough people when I was young with a lot of money who were absolutely miserable and dysfunctional and miserable. Actually, my mother had a lot of money and lo- obviously lost it all and died. So there, I had a very good example of, of someone with a huge amount of money who had nothing.

    5. SB

      Who I didn't see.

    6. JM

      We didn't inherit any of her money, but she was, um... it was a good example of someone who was miserable with money. Money doesn't... it's awful, uh, you know, when people like you and I say, "Money doesn't make you happy," it's nothing but irritating hearing a statement like that-

    7. SB

      I know.

    8. JM

      ... when a great many people, uh, don't have a large cash reserves in their bank account. But, the fact is, uh, we both know that it doesn't.

    9. SB

      What was motivating you then?

    10. JM

      Well, I think I wanted to make a difference. I wanted to be relevant. I wanted to be-

    11. SB

      Loved.

    12. JM

      ... admired, uh, uh, yeah. I wanted to do something interesting and great. I wanted to people, I wanted people to look at me and think, "Wow, he's... this, this guy is serious. He's, he's onto something. He matters." Then I wanted to, to, to create these important relationships with people I worked with. I wanted to see people flourish around me. That really mattered to me. I wanted to try and wipe away all the, some of that pain. I wanted that, and then deep down, I really love and passionately creative... the creative process of what I did. So the design and the food and the taste and the look and the feel and, and breaking down every barrier, which I just... as far as I was... I only kind of saw opportunity. It's- it's... you have to be very resourceful and determined in, in, in, uh, my particular business, you know, because it's... as we were, as we were saying before, and it's basic. If you want to sell the best cake in the world at the best price, you've got to be damn resourceful. You've got to work with geniuses. You've got to have the best equipment, the best everything. And, and that doesn't happen overnight. You don't get that by picking up the phone and ordering something. You have to create it, and it's... you have to be r- unbelievably resourceful. But, uh, that... I... that, with regard to the food, the design, and my belief in, in what food should be and could be for people, um, knows no bounds, no end, no end. I'll stop at nothing. Love it.

    13. SB

      Those dinner parties your father threw for you-

    14. JM

      Oh, yeah, yeah.

    15. SB

      ... did they have any lasting impression or lasting impact on your career?

    16. JM

      Well, no, most of the time, I was in the kitchen, actually.

    17. SB

      Oh, interesting.

    18. JM

      So I'd meet these, these remark- these many remarkable people. But my love of food started because I used to spend all the time in the kitchen.... and there was a- a guy who used to come and cook. He was really talented, Tony, and I'd spend the night with him, watching him work, from the age of about 14, 13. It was fascinating, and that's really where my love of food started, with him, watching him work. So it was a combination of- of- of becoming obsessed with what food could be and should be, um, and at the same time not being frightened of- of all these rather dysfunctional but immensely successful people who I met through my father. I didn't really get to know them very well, but a few.

  7. 30:59 – 37:06

    What was the "specialness" that made Pret successful

    1. JM

    2. SB

      At- at the time, it's hard to determine... When you're building a business and it's going well, it's hard to determine at the time what's actually making it brilliant and the specialness, as you've called it before.

    3. JM

      Yeah. Mm-hmm.

    4. SB

      In hindsight, I think it's much easier to look back and go, "That's why we were special and different. That's why we won." When you look back at Pret, (clears throat) a business you ended up selling for two billion or something crazy, a huge number.

    5. JM

      Yeah.

    6. SB

      Okay, it doesn't matter, it's a huge number. Um, what was the specialness? What- what did you-

    7. JM

      My God, there were so many.

    8. SB

      ... unintentionally or intentionally do right? What- what was the...

    9. JM

      Well, some amount of it, it wasn't planned. It happened e- endless moments of magic, endless moments of- of- of s- moments of bizarre creativity and confidence. Exactly the same with- with your business. It just, it's so difficult. It wasn't, you didn't write it all down and plan it. It just, it happened with moments of confidence, endless, endless moments, w- you know, of swimming upstream. As all the fish are going in one way, you suddenly look round and you think, "Damn it, I'm gonna go the other way. I'm not gonna swim in this direction. This can't be right." Uh, and that takes guts, it takes bravery, it takes relationships with people, it takes hiring talent. You have to have the guts to hire talent. People s- often much better than you. You've gotta be prepared to listen, and listen until it hurts. You've gotta be prepared to fail over and over and over again. I love failure. I love it, because it's just a damn journey. I really love it. I fail every day, and I don't care about it. I just get on with it. It's wonderful. Um, but with Pret, Pret... Food is a magical thing to be able to do. It's like music or film. I mean, it's- it's- it's... 'Cause when we know it's good, it's wonderful. It's wonderful. And in those days, in 1986 when we started, it was in the doldrums. It was also boring and awful. Um, so it was just a question of... But- but Pret wasn't just built with food, it was built with a combination. It was kind of built with, uh, magical, magic approach to the- the- the respect, and love, and obsession about creating pride and trust with the- with the- with the team, with the employees. I- I was obsessed by that, obsessed by that actually. (laughs)

    10. SB

      How- how important was it for you that you were naive? Because I think naivety-

    11. JM

      Bloody... Oh, it's very important. I had no idea what I was doing. None.

    12. SB

      Why was that important?

    13. JM

      I have no idea what I'm doing most of the time, actually, because I spend my life casting myself in- uh, into never- neverland. I don't know what I'm doing half the time. But you learn, you listen, you talk, you speak to the right people, and you learn. Because to create something new, huh, you know, you've gotta- you've gotta put yourself in slightly unchartered territory, you know? And then you've gotta be prepared to fail many, many times and keep going. That's all... Pret was just a series of hundreds of failures. That's all it was. Moments of failure, and then moments of glory, moments of wonderful moments of bravery. Yeah, that was it. Like, you- you know exactly what I'm talking about. It's moments, endless moments, where a light goes on and you think, "Okay, I'm gonna take that risk. I'm gonna do it." It feels right. Something in your heart says it's, "Go for it." Could be- could be working with people, promoting people, giving them extraordinary opportunity, or- or developing something which no one's ever eaten before, or, I don't know, hundreds of different things. Or when systems don't work, and you're not getting- you're not getting the behaviors, or the warmth, or the trust you crave, and you have to think outside the box. You've got to think again. We used to... There was one store after about tenth, the tenth Pret, I think, I- I couldn't understand why the atmosphere in this store was so bad.

    14. SB

      Fleet Street.

    15. JM

      Ah, it was Fleet Street, yeah. Bloody hell. And it was the first time I'd paid a recruitment company for a top manager, suit and tie, the whole thing. And yeah, it's true, I met this girl who I recognized, who worked in the store, a young, scruffy girl on the Tube on the way home, and she burst into tears. And she said, "I'm leaving on Monday." Um, because her manager was a dick. And I didn't need her to explain what dick meant. I knew exactly what she meant. My God, I'd been at school, I'd been at... All the teachers were dicks. I knew exactly what she meant, and I hated, I hated the idea of this- this determined, brave, trustworthy, wonderful, loving, fabulous young lady being bullied by a dick. So we f- we fired the dick and we promoted her to manager, and I never looked back. I think I learned more from that young lady than any- anyone I've ever learnt in my life, actually. The hope and the joy, that came from that.

    16. SB

      Did you see yourself in her?

    17. JM

      Oh my God, I've never thought about that. Oh my God. It pro- maybe, but no one ever gave me that opportunity. I had to fight for it. I didn't give her that opportunity. She earned it, actually. She earned it just by being herself. She was a great manager too, actually. I don't know how I knew. I wasn't, I didn't know she was gonna be a great manager, but there was something about her. There was something about her, and by the way, there's something about a great, great many people I meet. They all have so much going for them. They just don't believe it. They're just not working in an environment where they're given the opportunity they deserve. People don't trust them. People don't nurture them, 'cause they're too busy being selfish, nurturing them- themselves.

    18. SB

      Sounds like you're talking about your school teachers.

    19. JM

      Oh, well they're just id- they were idiots. They were just uros- id- complete idiots. And they're just downright... No one should be p- they shouldn't have been paid. (laughs) But there are a lot of authorities like that. I mean, a lot.

    20. SB

      And that store's sales doubled or something?

    21. JM

      Oh my God, yeah. Double, tripled.

    22. SB

      Oh, yeah.

    23. JM

      Of course. Why? Because you- there was, there was trust, there was care, there was pride, there was love and forgiveness, there was goals, there was- there was everything r- wonderful in life right there. Right there.

  8. 37:06 – 50:03

    How I run my businesses

    1. SB

      Business isn't just business to you, is it? It's not just about the money.

    2. JM

      No, and it shouldn't be to anyone. But it is, because we work short-term goals. So many of us are controlled, we're bossed around. We have to- w- we're, we're... You know, people's emotions are incredibly inconvenient in commerce, aren't they? Let's face it. And, and some people like you and other people have found ways o- of being, uh, uh, you know... found ways of, of, of bypassing all that shit. And you let people be themselves, you actually encourage people to be themselves, to speak up, to be transparent. That's what you need. That shop was completely transparent. It was beautiful. And that's what builds great, great companies or great teams or great sports teams, doesn't matter what it is, or makes great movies, doesn't matter, or anything. People need that feeling of, uh, sense of purpose and trust, uh, openness, I think.

    3. SB

      It's funny, you talk much more in terms of culture than you do in terms of tactics and tricks and discounting and these kinds of things.

    4. JM

      Oh my God, yeah.

    5. SB

      It seems to start more with culture with you.

    6. JM

      Yeah, I think it's, it's... If you're trying to break down barriers and do things new, which I've now spent the last 20 years really taking on almost, uh, uh, an extraordinary, wonderful challenge, which we will, we will win. We will get there.

    7. SB

      With itsu?

    8. JM

      Yeah. um, it's, uh, affordable, nutritious food, uh, and itsu's reinventing itself over and over and over again. I mean, it's 20 years old and it's had three reinventions. The, the latest ones are beginning to be- to really pay. I mean, they're really wonderful. Because the world, the Europe, uh, the cities in which we live desperately need affordable, nutritious food. We are half, 40%, I think, plant-based. Our entire menu is under 500 calories. Most of it's under 400. You know, this is what people need. We can't go on in this- in the developed world being 50% o- o- obese or s- or something, whatever it is now. It's shocking. But this is, uh, we can't blame anyone for this. There's no point in blaming... There's no point in even blaming us. There's no one to blame. But it's about my responsibility, I think, is with my team to, to carry on pioneering the, the systems and the, and the systems to make it possible to sell really nutritious, good food for, for seven quid.

    9. SB

      Your-

    10. JM

      It's possible.

    11. SB

      ... you talked about hiring and the importance of people and the right people there.

    12. JM

      Yeah.

    13. SB

      One of the things that I read that you'd done very early on with Pret was to allow the current employees to sign off on an incoming team member.

    14. JM

      Yeah.

    15. SB

      So, when someone comes for an interview, the people that decide if that person's gonna get a job are the current team members.

    16. JM

      Yeah. So we, the, the office used to pay for, for... We'd interview people, um, we'd go through the list of sh- uh, of the shops which, the Pret a Mages which needed people coming up, and we'd send them there, uh, and they would spend the whole day there, paid. And at four o'clock, no one would know, they wouldn't know this, but at four o'clock all the, the staff would vote on a napkin, yes or no. So they'd go around the whole team, they'd, we'd, we'd find ways of, of, of getting as many people to spend 25 minutes with them as possible, and then at, uh, four o'clock they'd vote. And then we'd ring the person up, "You got in or you didn't."

    17. SB

      And why, why was that useful?

    18. JM

      Because... Uh, I wish I'd been able to do that at school, because I realized after about seven or eight Prets that it was dysfunctional, that you only needed a slightly not particularly reliable or trustworthy manager. And what would they do? They'd hire the people they wanted. The whole system would just be abused. And there were a couple of examples where that was happening, and it just made me sick because it was so bad for the team, it was bad for the culture, it was bad for the manager, and it was really bad for the customers. So, uh, I, I just created this simple system which was so beautiful. It was beautiful because young people were voting on other peoples' lives within a few weeks of starting. That was great. Empowering them, trusting them, that was great. Good for them, huh? Really good for them.

    19. SB

      Small details. You know, when I read through your story of, of both your businesses, all your businesses, I noticed that there's a real eye for detail, you know?

    20. JM

      Yeah.

    21. SB

      If I think about itsu and the orch- orchards you have there, you have real orchards in the itsus, right?

    22. JM

      Mm-hmm.

    23. SB

      Could very well fake them like I do. I mean, I'm pretty sure there's some fake orchards in here. There's definitely some fake orchards upstairs.

    24. JM

      Yeah.

    25. SB

      You went for the real ones. In Pret, one of the things that's ultimately defined the brand cult- cult- culture at the right time is the fact that the food is all completely fresh.

    26. JM

      Mm-hmm.

    27. SB

      So none of it has a sell-by date.

    28. JM

      Mm-hmm.

    29. SB

      It doesn't stay there till tomorrow, ever. These small, sort of concerns with detail, how defining have they been for you in hindsight? 'Cause sometimes people are told not to sweat the small stuff.

    30. JM

      Yeah. Okay, so quite a lot of this stuff is, to me at the time, was just kind of obvious. In other words, if your product, if you want, expect your customers to be loyal to you, you've gotta treat them with, treat them with respect. You've gotta sell them something worth- worthy of their hard-earned money.

  9. 50:03 – 56:14

    Selling Pret

    1. JM

    2. SB

      In May 2018, you sold your final stake in Pret.

    3. JM

      Yeah.

    4. SB

      Why?

    5. JM

      Because, um, I wasn't... Oh, I wasn't asked. Um, I had no choice. Uh, the, the, the new owners of Pret A Manger have nothing to do with me. I met them, I've met them once for five minutes. They, they probably think I'm an absolute idiot. They have n- I've never met them. I don't-... They have no interest in working with me. That's their choice. That's completely... Uh, you know, I, that, that is, um, that's their choice. Th- I hope it works for them.

    6. SB

      So, you owned the business with your co-founder, and then you sort of-

    7. JM

      Oh, that's a long, yeah, it's a long story. Pret started in '86, and-

    8. SB

      Yeah.

    9. JM

      ... and-

    10. SB

      I'm trying to understand your ownership.

    11. JM

      ... I brought a founder in who was, who I l- who I met at, uh, at college, um, who was much, much cleverer than me, much more disciplined than me. Uh, and I had this really strong vision of, of, of s- of wanting to do this. But I knew, I was smart enough back then to know I needed someone who was respectful of numbers and discipline and the law. So I said to him-

    12. SB

      (laughs)

    13. JM

      "Look, if you leave your job, I'll give you half this company." And he did. He was brave. He had a good job, and he left his job. Um, and I think probably in the end, after about 15 years, we were, we'd become immensely successful, the two of us, and he wanted to retire. I think the pace, the, my endless, never-ending pushing on the vision of what this could be probably drove him mental, um. But he, he, he was smart. He re-... He retired. He works a bit now, but he kind of retired completely, which I respect completely. That was his choice.

    14. SB

      Did it suck at the time when Sinclair told you that he was gonna retire?

    15. JM

      No, no, no, no. It was... See, I rather admired him. I could never do that. I really admire people who, who are able to take control of their life like that. I can't. I-

    16. SB

      Are you being dragged?

    17. JM

      What's that mean, being dragged?

    18. SB

      Yeah, so take control of their life like that, so-

    19. JM

      No, no, I genuinely... I promise you I think people who are able to s-... to take control and... "I'm, I'm gonna go walking in the, in the bloody jungle for six months." I have nothing but admiration for people who can do that.

    20. SB

      So, that's why I ask if you were being dragged, because y-... Like we said earlier, you're admiring something that you don't have yourself, right?

    21. JM

      Yeah, I don't have it. I don't have it. I'm, I'm too-

    22. SB

      So you don't have control of your life is the understanding?

    23. JM

      I do have control over my life because I definitely make the choice to do what I do, and I-

    24. SB

      But you couldn't stop.

    25. JM

      ... and I love it. I really... I'm happiest creating. There's no question. I'm completely in love with what I do. I love it. I really enjoy it. That may sound weird, but it's the truth. I love it. I don't want to be walking in the jungle. I love doing what I'm doing every day. I've just had a food meeting now. It was fantastic. We've cracked something we've been working on for a year. We cracked it today, so it's incredible. And millions of people will eat this thing in a year from now. And it's because of our relentless passion and hard work to get this thing right. And today, we, I think we cracked it, and that's wonderful. And then earlier this morning, we cracked a bit of design which was incredible. I, I really enjoy it. So I don't want to be in the jungle. He did. He wanted to retire, and I respect that. But it left me in the shit because I d-... We didn't have any paperwork between us, and, and suddenly, uh, different kinds of people came into the business, and they were much more formal, and, and some of the joy went out of it.

    26. SB

      Did he sell his stake at that point?

    27. JM

      Uh, yeah, he sold a chunk of it. But it really changed. It became professional. Uh, and then, and then private equity came in. I mean, we had a very good private equity company, a UK one. They were, they were fine. They were very honorable, decent people. But it was definitely, um... The business became more about becoming a very successful business than, than developing a very beautiful relationship with the customer and staff.

    28. SB

      And it was acquired by McDonald's.

    29. JM

      No, that's not true. No, what happened is-

    30. SB

      Hmm.

  10. 56:14 – 58:01

    Starting ITSU

    1. JM

    2. SB

      I couldn't quite figure out where the crossover happened between Itsu and Pret.

    3. JM

      Well, in '97, the first Itsu opened.

    4. SB

      While you were still the owner of Pret?

    5. JM

      I was at Pret, and, and we had a supplier, um, a wonderful, uh... The head of marketing at the Japanese center was a young Japanese woman, and she said to me... I said to her one day, "Why are you working for this terribly boring company? Why don't you open a, a Japanese restaurant which is affordable?" Because in those days, Japanese restaurants were really stuck-up-

    6. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    7. JM

      ... and really expensive, really boring. And, and she said to me, "Okay, I'll leave my job if you help... if you pay for it." So, I said, "Okay, I'll pay for it. You lose your... You, you leave your job." I promise you, two weeks later, she rung me up and said, "I've left my job."

    8. SB

      Love that.

    9. JM

      And I said, "What have you done?"

    10. SB

      (laughs)

    11. JM

      "What have you..." So, I suddenly found myself with this responsibility to open a restaurant. Um, so then we find a site, and we open the first Itsu, which was very different from what it is now, but it was a start. And from that start, we built 76 or something of, of them. And then about five years ago, we started developing it so it could become the future. But, but we had to open 76 and keep it private. It was 100% private company. I never ever again wanted to end up in a situation where I owned a minority where the business would take over. In other words, "You will do this, you will do this. We will deliver these profits, and we don't care about your vision." So, I was able to build it to such an extent with the team that we owned it, all of it.

    12. SB

      A- And now you have, what? 75 stores in total?

    13. JM

      Yeah.

    14. SB

      70 are in the UK.

    15. JM

      We're opening in lots of interesting places. Really fascinating. Just now, in the next 12 months, we're opening... I think we open Bromley next week. But it's changing so much.

  11. 58:01 – 1:02:14

    The hardest day of your career

    1. JM

    2. SB

      What's the worst crisis you've ever had in your business?

    3. JM

      Well, I wasn't there. Uh, uh, I'd left Pret when the crisis happened when the, the, the, um, sesame inc- incident of that poor girl who had food allergies. I wasn't there then. That must've been very difficult for everyone then. And, and, and the ups and downs, as you know, as you would've experienced-

    4. SB

      Sesame is-

    5. JM

      ... in your business, there are ups and downs every week, every month, so you often think this is a... This is... Funny enough, I think most of my job today is telling people not to worry. A lot of people I work with, um, come to me and say that, "We're in terrible... This is..." and I, it's, "No, it's not. It's gonna be fine."

    6. SB

      This sesame incident-

    7. JM

      Yeah.

    8. SB

      ... that you're referring to is a, a young girl-

    9. JM

      Yeah.

    10. SB

      ... who had an allergic reaction to a sesame seed?

    11. JM

      A baguette, yeah.

    12. SB

      In a bi- in a bagu- in a baguette.

    13. JM

      She, she had serious food allergies, and she had bought without... Her mother wasn't there, and she bought a baguette and, and ate it, which was covered in sesame seeds. I mean, it was tragic. Really s- really sad. And as a result of that, Natasha's Law has changed, uh, brought in far more labeling, food labeling in this country.

    14. SB

      It's called Natasha's Law?

    15. JM

      Yeah, after her. But it was very painful for her, her family, and everyone at, uh, uh, Pret. It was awful. But the crisis, uh, they'll come thick and fast, and we'll, we'll be fine. We'll be fine.

    16. SB

      How can you be so sure?

    17. JM

      Because, because just stick to the truth. The truth is... You know, the truth is good in the sense that of all the things which could go catastrophically wrong, we kind of s- know about them, uh, with regard to the dangers of being on our businesses. Uh, health and safety, for instance. We have a five-star record, uh, the highest record in this country. Every single one is five-star always. No one else has achieved that before. And that is because the head, the CEO of our company has a fantastic relationship with the head of sa- It's just awesome. Unbelievable. In fact, our head of, uh, safety got up on stage last week, and the entire 220 people just completely clapped. I mean, it says a lot because usually those people... You know. So, there's... Culturally, that says something. So, h- health and safety in our industry is really, really a fear. Um, what else? All kinds of things.

    18. SB

      Did that incident with Natasha, she... 15-year-old drops dead on a plane-

    19. JM

      Yeah.

    20. SB

      ... from what I read. Um, did it change you in any way? Did it make you think differently about... Because that's the... For me, that's the inconceivable. It almost reminds me of, um, (sighs) Bob Iger.

    21. JM

      ... at Disney.

    22. SB

      I read, yeah, Bob Iger's book about a four-year-old that-

    23. JM

      (exhales)

    24. SB

      ... was playing at Disney and a crocodile comes out of the Disney pond and eats him.

    25. JM

      No.

    26. SB

      Yeah.

    27. JM

      No.

    28. SB

      And then, and, Bob Iger go- about to go up on stage in Asia, gets a message from his senior leadership team saying, "A four-year-old at Disney has just been eaten by a crocodile." And, I mean, it had a pretty profound impact on him, to say the least. So...

    29. JM

      Well, I, I-

    30. SB

      He was the chief exec at the time.

  12. 1:02:14 – 1:07:14

    Finding out you had a daughter

    1. SB

      A really remarkable thing happened, um, in your life at a certain age when you found out you had a daughter out of the blue.

    2. JM

      Yeah. I had a feeling you were gonna ask about that. That went public, didn't it? Yes. Okay, so my, yeah, that is absolutely true, and I work with h- uh, Celeste now. She's on the board and she sits next to me two days a week, uh, and it's incredible.

    3. SB

      I had, at some point in my early life, a man walk in, he walked into my, my mum's shop, and he said that he was my uncle.

    4. JM

      Huh.

    5. SB

      Turns out he was.

    6. JM

      Yeah.

    7. SB

      I didn't know I had any uncles in this country.

    8. JM

      Yeah.

    9. SB

      Turns out I did. But tell me about that day for you. What, how did it happen? How do you find out? How, what, what age are you when you find out you have a...

    10. JM

      Oh, it was about f- 15 years ago.

    11. SB

      And she was 26.

    12. JM

      So I was about 45.

    13. SB

      You were 45, she was 26.

    14. JM

      She was about, no, she was 19.

    15. SB

      Oh, 19.

    16. JM

      She had just started at Brus- Bristol University. And, uh, her mother called me, who I hadn't seen for ages, um, and obviously I had absolutely no idea that her daughter was my daughter. No, absolutely no, I'd never met her. I'd had no idea. And her mother asked to see me. So I said, yes, and me, and we met in, we met at the King's Road, and she told me, I sat down, I...

    17. SB

      Weren't you suspicious when she asked to see you?

    18. JM

      No, I wasn't suspici- I certainly wasn't suspicious of that. I thought maybe she needed help or I, I don't know. Um, but she was a kind of cool, int- intelligent, ex- rather wonderful, eccentric, brilliant woman. So I remembered her very fondly. I hadn't seen her for ages, but, so I met her immediately and she, and she just told me there and then, "My daughter, I have a daughter, and she's your, she's your daughter." So I asked him, "Well, when did you tell her and how's it gone down?" And she said, "I told her two weeks ago and not well." So then we, then I tried to contact her. It was k- she was a bit standoffish, f- fu- it was hard to get through to her for a few days. And then I drove up to Bristol University and we met. We met, and I had nothing but, but, um, an overwhelming desire to, a deep, overwhelming desire to get in there and tr- and try my hardest to build her muscle and her strength and her, you know, what had, what had happened to her was incredibly unjust. And I wanted, from the depth of my heart, to do everything I could to try and repair it, and I will do that and continue to do that to the day I die. Um, she's fantastic and she's really close to my children and my other two and, you know, it could be much worse, but I feel this is not an easy thing to go through for her. Not a, not an easy thing for anyone to go through. So she's strong. She has, she's married, she has two kids and a third one on the way, and she's really rather remarkable.

    19. SB

      So the person she thought was her father-

    20. JM

      Wasn't.

    21. SB

      ... wasn't?

    22. JM

      Correct.

    23. SB

      And why, why hadn't her mother told her who her father was?

    24. JM

      Because her mother, I don't, she wasn't, uh... I don't, the, when the, when this happened, uh, they, they weren't close, the mother and the father. They weren't, they really weren't close, if you understand what I'm saying. They really weren't that close. And he, the f- the father figure was pretty distant through her life, and then when she got to the age of 18, I think probably more distant, and I think the mother realized that this couldn't go on forever, and she, the mother was very brave. She took this hugely brave decision, "Do I tell her the truth or do I not?" I have nothing but respect and absolute admiration for the mother having the courage to tell her daughter the truth. It must've been agony, agony all around. Um, but she did the right thing.

    25. SB

      What was it like arriving to Bristol University that day?

    26. JM

      Oh, what's it like when you... You funny, you know when a, when a child's yours, I can assure you, you know immediately. You just know. So it was lovely. It was lovely. I was really, uh... Funny enough, things like that you would have thought would be completely, totally, um, crushing for someone who wasn't that well-equipped to deal with s- that sort of shit, but actually I found it won- really, really, really enriching and the way my two boys embraced her was incredible. It was really an opportunity to really shine and, uh, and do s- and it was great. It's, it's, it's, it's... You know, I have nothing but admiration for the way sh- she's handled it. Anyway, she-... let's change the subject because she won't like this.

    27. SB

      (laughs) But you work together now, which is awesome.

    28. JM

      Yeah, yeah, of course we do. Yeah.

    29. SB

      She- she- she works in the marketing team? She leads marketing?

    30. JM

      No. She, she leads the brand and she's on the board.

  13. 1:07:14 – 1:08:45

    What are you scared of?

    1. JM

    2. SB

      What are you scared of?

    3. JM

      Uh, what am I scared of? Uh, oh my God, I'm scared of death-

    4. SB

      Really?

    5. JM

      ... I think.

    6. SB

      You did say you were scared of death too.

    7. JM

      I've got a hypochondriac. I'm scared of that. Uh, that's about it. Maybe that's... That's about it.

    8. SB

      Why does death scare you?

    9. JM

      Y- No, I think just, just the whole thing with health and not paying enough attention to your health. And, and you're, it's completely beyond one's control. I mean, totally. When that goes, you're in r- when that, when the, when you're in trouble, you're in trouble. And that can happen tomorrow. So that, it doesn't really scare me. I don't ponder on it too much, but I think we're all hypers. Misha, my sons are hyper. My wife Brooke is not a hyper. Sh- I spent my life saying I'm dying. She, she... And then, trouble, I've cried wolf so many times.

    10. SB

      (laughs)

    11. JM

      And then one of my stepdaughters is quite into medicine, so I refer my illnesses to her quite a lot.

    12. SB

      (laughs)

    13. JM

      Um-

    14. SB

      Are any of these illnesses real?

    15. JM

      S- so, no.

    16. SB

      (laughs)

    17. JM

      So far, we've had quite a lot of false... We're not gonna go there. But the fact is, yeah, I w- I'm not even, I'm not even fear of death. No, I don't fear, I don't think I fear anything, actually. I really don't. There's no time to fear. It's all time to hope, hope, and believe in hope. And, and, and... Yeah. The fu- uh, it's incredible what people can do. Not just, not me, but all the people around me.

  14. 1:08:45 – 1:11:31

    Your happiness recipe

    1. JM

    2. SB

      If I had a recipe here, and it's the recipe of happiness, what are the ingredients on your recipe?

    3. JM

      Listen, I, I, I, I, I don't think about it. I really, really don't. I, I can think about that I'm not unhappy. I'm very, very privileged and I'm very lucky to be not unhappy. I have all the material things. I have food, warmth, love, I have everything. So the idea of me s- pondering on how I could be happier is kind of ridiculous. For me, the concept of thinking about how, how I could be happier is kind of g-... I mean, really? I'm, haven't I got enough? I've got everything. I'm so lucky I'm not unhappy.

    4. SB

      Are you happy?

    5. JM

      Yeah. Whatever. Yeah. I'm not unhappy. Um-

    6. SB

      (laughs) It's the different thing. There's unhappiness and there's happiness. Are you happy is a diff-... I remember the day my dad-

    7. JM

      I'm often happy. Listen-

    8. SB

      I'm often h-

    9. JM

      ... I get up on Monday and I can't wait to work, to, to race to work with so many people I, uh, I admire, love, and trust. Um, and I leave home surrounded by people who I love, admire, and trust. Christ, what more could you possibly want than that? I, I don't know. But it didn't come by accident, so I don't want... I'm not, I'm not, I'm not just saying luck fell in my lap. That's gonna be confusing for, uh, anyone who's watching this. I, uh, got into the situation through, um, doing a lot and working and acting on the evidence. In other words, when things don't work out, it's obvious, change it, work harder. If... You know? I- i- i- the same with your personal relationships. We're... this is all within our domain. We can all do this.

    10. SB

      What advice would you give to me? In my... You've, you know, your career has spanned longer than mine.

    11. JM

      I'm older. I'm much older than you.

    12. SB

      Yeah. A little bit. Little bit.

    13. JM

      Well, I don't, I think you're on the right track. I mean, that is why you a- you stand out as being, uh, this... You know, v- very... You've had a huge amount of success at a very young age. So if I was you, I'd just, just stick to what's working. Um, and the, your endless pursuit of transparency and truth, that is what's got you to where you are today, actually. You, you don't, don't underestimate. Uh, I don't know how often anyone in your life congratulates you or pats you on the back, but I think you must carry on as you are with showing great empathy and, and warmth. So even on g- uh, I've watched y- on Dragons' Den.

    14. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    15. JM

      It's interesting that you, I've noticed you never put anyone down.

    16. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    17. JM

      You somehow... Very human the way you deal with, with everything. So your ability to work within the world of truth is f- just fabulous, so just don't lose it. Don't lose it. And don't forget, however much, the money's all crap.

  15. 1:11:31 – 1:17:09

    The last guest question

    1. SB

      We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest asks a question to the next guest, and they never know who they're asking it to. So in a nice way, all the guests are talking to each other, and they write it in this book. And I don't get to read it. If I, if I try and peek, Jack does. He actually, he like shoos me off with the bush. Like hits me with the book.

    2. JM

      Okay. I thought about this last night, so I can easily do that.

    3. SB

      Well, you don't know what the question is. (laughs)

    4. JM

      Oh, uh, God, you're gonna ask me the question?

    5. SB

      Yes. (laughs)

    6. JM

      Oh, Lord. All right, but I've thought about my question.

    7. SB

      Okay, good.

    8. JM

      Okay. So let's... Oh, no, I wonder who this was.

    9. SB

      Oh, okay. Interesting.

    10. JM

      You really don't know what it is?

    11. SB

      On my mother's life-

    12. JM

      Okay.

    13. SB

      ... I d- I do not look. And sometimes we have a problem because the handwriting can be an issue. But Jack always checks, and I'll, I'll say what else happens. Jack will tell me if it's a shit question. So if, we had one guy who was like, "What's your favorite meal deal?" So Jack told me before, Steve.

    14. JM

      Oh, for goodness sake.

    15. SB

      Yeah. (laughs) After this call... So Jack was like, "Steve, the question's shit." I was like, "Oh, fuck." But it only happens once in a while. You can keep that in. Jack made you, you bastard. (laughs) Ruining my show. He's my friend, so it's all good. And he actually knows. He watched the next episode and was like, "You didn't ask the question." I was like, "I'm gonna fuck off." (laughs)

    16. JM

      Are we allowed to know who ar- who asked the question? No.

    17. SB

      You're not allowed to know.

    18. JM

      Okay.

    19. SB

      One day you'll be able to find out though, because we're gonna release them all as, as cards.

    20. JM

      Of course. Yeah, no. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

    21. SB

      So... But anyway, the question that's left for you, what is an inadequacy...... y- you admit to that you could work on starting tomorrow?

    22. JM

      (laughs) Oh, honestly. I mean, where do you begin with something like that? I mean, it's a perfectly good question. But the list is so long, so the- the only way you can answer a question like that is- is- is to choose, um, the biggest inadequacy, and I- I wouldn't know even how to do that. I think what I need to do, and we all need to do, is embrace all our inadequacies and- and know what they are and accept them and- and- and thrive knowing they're there. That's what we need to do. Yeah, I'm not gonna give you a s- I'm not gonna answer that question by saying, "Oh, I could- I could- I could- I could kiss my wife goodnight," you know. Or that I do that anyway. Um, or I could go to the gym more, I could go... The... Hundreds of things. I'm a very inadequate person.

    23. SB

      What about in your relationships, then? 'Cause you- you've referenced kissing your wife.

    24. JM

      Well, my relationships are... There's so much I could do better with all my relationships.

    25. SB

      Same.

    26. JM

      I honestly don't know where to start, but at least I'm aware of that.

    27. SB

      What are you aware of?

    28. JM

      I'm aware of the fact that, uh, to- to create the way I do, to work the way I do, comes at a cost.

    29. SB

      And the cost is?

    30. JM

      And the cost is I don't spend enough time nurturing, loving, and being supportive to the people I love most. That's just a fact. Do I regret it? No. Do I accept it? Yes. Do they? I pray. And when I'm gone and if- if we continue to build something remarkable, they'll know that we're all part of this together. This was made possible by- by them and- and- a- and myself together with the team.

Episode duration: 1:19:58

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