Desmond O'Neill: Why labeling people stops real conversation

1. 0:00 – 6:00

   Why Dark Conversations Matter More Than Easy Ones

   1. SBSteven Bartlett0:00

      I've got a difficult conversation I wanna have with someone.

   2. DODesmond O’Neill0:02

      Yeah.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett0:02

      And they might be a narcissist.

   4. DODesmond O’Neill0:03

      So let's stop there, because if you just blatantly label somebody as being a narcissist, you're not going to be able to really understand who this person is and, and why they are the way they are. But when you need to go into a dark conversation, to make things simple, there are four things that you can do, because we all have those conversations. We have a supervisor who we feel is overlooking us in a promotion. Maybe our spouse, we got in a fight with. Your friend who's betrayed us. Now, they're cloaked in so much emotion or so much tension that you don't know how to handle that. But there's also three things that you should stop doing, such as stop telling people you understand.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett0:34

      Telling them you understand?

   6. DODesmond O’Neill0:35

      Yep, yep.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett0:35

      Why?

   8. DODesmond O’Neill0:35

      This is where we're gonna talk about it.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett0:37

      For over 30 years, former Secret Service agent Desmond O'Neill has used science-backed interrogation techniques against some of the world's biggest liars. He's trained elite teams from the FBI to the CIA. And now, in his first public conversation, he's laying out the frameworks you need to communicate effectively, how to lead-

   10. DODesmond O’Neill0:53

       And how to get anyone to open up. When it comes to being able to communicate with somebody, the victory lies in the little things that you do. So you need to have a plan. P is for purpose. So why are you there? What is the goal of the conversation? Because especially in emotional conversations, it becomes really easy to get distracted. And if you lose your cool, you lose control. And then there's the A, which is ask, because most of us think we know what our partner's thinking, right? But the research shows we're only accurate about 40% of the time. And if that conversation gets emotional, that 40% can go down as low as 15. It's called empathy accuracy. And so the power of asking questions is important, but when you fail to do that, you are gonna have a really hard time having a deep, honest relationship with somebody. And then there's the L, in the end, which most people do wrong, and we'll go into that.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett1:36

       And then what about body language? Can you tell if I'm being deceptive by how much I look at someone?

   12. DODesmond O’Neill1:40

       So there's a few indicators of somebody telling the truth, and we'll talk about them.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett1:43

       And what about leadership principles?

   14. DODesmond O’Neill1:45

       So I learned the true essence of leadership when I was on a SWAT team, from situations like when you're hunting someone and they're hunting you as well. So let's get into the details.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett1:55

       I see messages all the time in the comments section that some of you didn't realize you didn't subscribe, so if you could do me a favor and double-check if you're a subscriber to this channel, that would be tremendously appreciated. It's the simple, it's the free thing that anybody that watches this show frequently can do to help us here to keep everything going in this show and the trajectory it's on. So please do double-check if you've subscribed, and, uh, thank you so much, because in a strange way, you are- you're part of our history, and you're on this journey with us, and I appreciate you for that. So yeah, thank you. (instrumental music plays) Desmond O'Neill, for those people that have just clicked onto this conversation, what are they gonna walk away from our discussion with?

   16. DODesmond O’Neill2:36

       So I've been in law enforcement for 30 years and I've served a lot of different roles in that, and above everything else, the one thing that I've learned is when stress is high, when emotions are strong, when it matters, how do you authentically connect and communicate with somebody else? There's something to be said about when a conversation is easy, right? When it's fun, when everybody wants to be there. You can focus on your handshake. You can focus on the eye contact, how great your posture is. What about the dark conversations? What about those conversations that kinda, they live in the shadows of your mind because you don't wanna face them, you don't wanna have those, right? They're, they're cloaked in so much emotion or so much tension that you just, you don't know how to handle that. We all have that, right? We have a supervisor who we feel is overlooking us in a promotion. We have, you know, a family member who we feel that we're just no longer getting along with. Maybe our spouse, we got in a fight with. It may be a friend who's betrayed us. So how do you have that conversation? Like, what does that look like? Because it comes from, you know, for the 30 years that I've been doing this, most of the people that I talked to didn't wanna talk to me, and my job was to connect with them, to find a way to get them to open up, to find a way to have some type of understanding and get the information that I needed. So this is not about interviewing or interrogation. This is, this is human connection. If your audience cares to understand how to have a dark conversation where you can deepen that relationship or at least come to some type of understanding, or at the very least, not walk away ruminating on everything you said, trying to figure out what went wrong, what could you have done different, if you've had that and you're interested in knowing, then this is, this is where we're gonna talk about that.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett4:35

       And to summarize in, I guess, 30 seconds why you're the guy that is best placed to deliver this information, what is, what are the reference points, the experiences, the, the variety of experience you've had that feeds into the answers and the actionable advice-

   18. DODesmond O’Neill4:49

       Yeah.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett4:49

       ... you're gonna give my audience?

   20. DODesmond O’Neill4:51

       My initial career started as a corrections officer. Became a police officer and I was a SWAT officer as well. From there, I went to the federal government, so I went to the Secret Service. Uh, with the Secret Service, I also started a polygraph career. So now I have people that are giving me their deepest, darkest secrets.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett5:08

       And just for context, polygraphing is a lie detection test.

   22. DODesmond O’Neill5:12

       Polygraph is a lie detection test. So it gives you a, a psychological or a physiological response in terms of how somebody answers a particular question.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett5:20

       Where else did your career take you after that point?

   24. DODesmond O’Neill5:23

       I went into internal affairs, and so that is now policing the people within our organization. So now I'm talking to men and women who have had some of my interrogation training. They kinda know the questioning going on. They know the interaction. They've done themselves interviews and interrogations.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett5:41

       Oh, okay, so this is law enforcement officers who have committed a crime or some kind of misconduct-

   26. DODesmond O’Neill5:47

       Possibly, right.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett5:48

       ... issue-

   28. DODesmond O’Neill5:49

       Right.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett5:49

       ... or been reported for something, and your job is to investigate them.

   30. DODesmond O’Neill5:52

       Yes, but think about that for a minute. Like, you are now talking to somebody else who, you know, maybe a year ago, you were out on the street doing

2. 6:00 – 11:05

   Dropping Labels: Narcissists, Gaslighting, and Taking Responsibility

   1. DODesmond O’Neill6:00

      work with, and now you're asking them these questions or these, for clarification on some type of allegation...You gotta be, you gotta be mindful with that. Like, that's a big deal.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett6:11

      And the, the interview methods that were prevalent at that time, you felt were outdated?

   3. DODesmond O’Neill6:18

      They were. So there is, in the US, there's a very historical evolution of interview and interrogation. You know, it started in the 1900s when policing came in. In that circumstance, it was physical abuse. They called it the third degree, where you would go in and, you know, people would grind down your teeth or they would cause pain for you to talk to them. As we've evolved as a society, that started to go away in lieu of psychological manipulation. So it was less about hands-on and more about trying to get people to talk to you from a psychological perspective. And right about 2014 when I went into internal affairs, I was like, "Steven," I was like, "I just, uh, there's gotta be something different. Like, we've had to evolve in some way, in terms of what that is." And so, you know, you have my thesis there, right? Right about that time, I was accepted into the Naval Postgraduate School to pursue a master's. And because I was looking for a better way to interview, one of my thesis advisors said, "Hey, have you ever heard of the High-Value Detainee Interrogation Group, which the acronym is HIG?" Had never heard of it, but the HIG, when it was created, was, was three-pronged, meaning that it had a, a, a research department, right? And it had a practitioner department, so the people that would do the, the interrogations, and then it had a trainer department. Now, the trainer department, we would do interviews/interrogations, but we also understood the science behind that. The reason that's important is because you could be a really good practitioner and not understand why something is or isn't working. And so being able to cross the bridge between the, the science and understanding that and being able to apply it in the room, that hybrid, that connection, that sweet spot, that is what I did.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett8:09

      So you did research and you continued to do research on how to get people to give information, how to get information from people-

   5. DODesmond O’Neill8:18

      Yeah.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett8:18

      ... how to get them to offer up information. Is that the crux of it?

   7. DODesmond O’Neill8:20

      Yeah.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett8:21

      So if I'm, you know, I've got a difficult conversation I wanna have with someone. This person is antagonistic. They often gaslight me. They might be a narcissist, and I'm walking into that conversation or I'm, you know, I'm overthinking it. I'm thinking, "God, I need to have this conversation," where's the first place to start?

   9. DODesmond O’Neill8:38

      So the first place that I would start is don't label the people how you just labeled them.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett8:42

       Okay.

   11. DODesmond O’Neill8:42

       And that's a problem. So you just labeled somebody a narcissist. Why does that matter to you?

   12. SBSteven Bartlett8:47

       I think it allows me to blame them, I guess, or, or to-

   13. DODesmond O’Neill8:49

       It allows you to blame, but, but tell m- tell me, in your perspective, what's a narcissist?

   14. SBSteven Bartlett8:53

       That they are, they have low empathy. They are self-centered.

   15. DODesmond O’Neill8:57

       Okay.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett8:57

       They are a little bit aggressive maybe.

   17. DODesmond O’Neill8:59

       Okay. So let's stop there. Do you think, personally, that there are times in your life where you lack empathy?

   18. SBSteven Bartlett9:06

       Yeah.

   19. DODesmond O’Neill9:06

       Okay. So empathy is very situationally based, so meaning that it's also subjective, meaning that if you feel this person is not giving you certain empathy, okay, maybe, um, a bit self-centered, a bit aggressive. You, uh, the reason I ask you these things is because if you just blatantly label somebody as being like, "This person's a narcissist," you've just, you've just made it easy for yourself. You've just put blame on them, and you're not going to be able to really understand who this person is and, and why they are the way they are. So the first thing that I would do is I would take away the labels as how you define them as you're going into that. What was the other thing you said in terms of what they were? They're a narcissist. They were something else.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett9:45

       Um, they gaslight.

   21. DODesmond O’Neill9:48

       So second thing, uh, which is interesting because we actually, within our training, uh, program, we just did a big class in gaslighting because it's important to understand what is gaslighting and what it, when is it not gaslighting? So for you, 'cause you've said this person gaslights you, what is, what are they gaslighting you about?

   22. SBSteven Bartlett10:07

       Um, when I bring something up, they make me feel like I'm to blame.

   23. DODesmond O’Neill10:13

       Okay.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett10:13

       When I, when I bring up how I feel, maybe they make me feel like I'm to blame, like I did something wrong.

   25. DODesmond O’Neill10:18

       Okay. Does that always happen?

   26. SBSteven Bartlett10:21

       More often than not.

   27. DODesmond O’Neill10:22

       Okay, n- more often than not. So it's something that it sounds like that when you go in and you're talking to this different person, whatever the circumstances is, they are, uh, they're trying to discredit you or make you feel like maybe you don't know really what happened?

   28. SBSteven Bartlett10:34

       They're not listening. They're just always throwing it back on me, saying that I did something to deserve it.

   29. DODesmond O’Neill10:38

       And what was the third thing you said?

   30. SBSteven Bartlett10:40

       A little bit, like, aggressive, antagonistic, so-
3. 11:05 – 19:20

   The PLAN Framework: Purpose, Listen, Ask, Next Steps

   1. DODesmond O’Neill11:05

      and there's the acronym about that, PLAN, right, L-A-N. So the P is for purpose, and the purpose is why are you there? What's the reason? What's the mission? You have to understand y- your mission because your mission is gonna drive your tactics. Your mission is going to determine if things get off track, if this person becomes aggressive, this person starts to be insulting, if my mission at that moment is to deepen my conversation with them, deepen my relationship in some way, and this starts to get ugly in the middle, your mission should keep you on track because you can get pulled from that very quickly. There's something called multiple goals theory, and multiple goals theory is the understanding that at any given time, we will pursue simultaneous goals, and typically, those goals would be something task-oriented. You know, I wanna, I wanna finish a taskie, and I wanna get something done. There's gonna be a component of identity in there, meaning that how do I feel? What are my emotions going on during the course of this? And then there's gonna be relational, so it's gonna be my relationship with this person at the time. Now, a lot of times within multiple goals theory, those things can align.So, and I'll give you an example. Like, if you're playing a sport, you're on a team. Uh, the team goal, your goal within that team, the task is to win, to put on more points than the other person. That's the task. The identity aspect of that is, "Am I a good player? Do, do I want the ball? Do I get the ball? Am I contributing? Am I the superstar?" Is there some type of identity in how this makes me feel about myself being, being a sports star in some capacity? And the relationship part of that is, "How do my teammates feel about me? Am I interac- am I a good teammate in terms of what that was?" Those things can align. You can see when that is misaligned when all of a sudden somebody, what they would call a ball hog, somebody takes the shot all the time, and they won't pass it around, and you're like-

   2. SBSteven Bartlett12:56

      Ronaldo.

   3. DODesmond O’Neill12:57

      ... "What are you doing?" Right? And it's one of these things where, like, you are more concerned about your identity than you are about the team winning. That's a problem. That's when you can see there's a misalignment of goals. Or something that's even more simple would be, let's say you're in a meeting with, uh, a boss or a colleague, and it's a pretty important meeting. You're, you're trying to close a deal. And your boss says something that's wrong. Now, you have to make a decision. You could either correct your boss in front of everybody, or you could preserve his or her dignity and address them at a later time. You have to decide which one of those is most important. You have to understand your purpose of being in that meeting because, "Maybe I could let this go. It's not that big of a deal, because if I correct my boss, this may affect my relationship with them at a later time. This could ruin my career in terms of being transferred or, or not being on a project." So when you're looking at goals, you have to understand what the overall objective is. It becomes, Steven, it becomes, especially in emotional conversations, it becomes really easy to, to get distracted. Really easy.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett14:04

      So I go into that conversation with my colleague who is problematic. My goal with them, let's say, is to get them to stop... I'm actually thinking about earlier in my career when I used to work in call centers on the phone. And, um, there was one particular lady that sat next to me that was always a little bit rude and always putting me down a little bit. A bit patronizing. So I, I, in hindsight, wish I could have, you know, got, taken her aside and had a conversation with her and said, "Listen, the way you're speaking to me is very disrespectful," or, "You're putting me down or patronizing me. Please, can you stop doing that?" My goal would have been to, to get her to stop.

   5. DODesmond O’Neill14:36

      It is to get her to do that, but the crux of that is to understand why she's doing it, because that's gonna allow me to fix this in some way if it, if it's fixable. I'll, I'll share this story with you. In 1991, an 11-year-old girl named Jaycee Dugard was kidnapped by a man named Phillip Garrido and his wife, Nancy. And Phillip and Nancy kept Jaycee Dugard for 18 years. He fathered two children with her, one when she was 14, and one when she was 17. And in 2009, they found her and him at Berkeley. They arrested him, arrested his wife. 2011, he was, you know, tried, convicted. Three years prior to that, there was a young girl named Michaela Garecht who had gone missing, never been found in a county over, uh, west, west of El Dorado in a county named Alameda County. There was a lot of s- suspicion that Phillip was the one who did this as well. And one of my, one of my colleagues was the prosecuting attorney for El Dorado County, California. His name is Vern Pierson. And Vern said, "I'd like to close this or get some type of understanding. Can you go and interview Phillip?" So I looked at all the information on Phillip. He had written a manifesto in terms of how to cure pedophilia. And I went to Vern, I said, "All right, I'm, l- let's go do this." And he goes, "What do you need, like, a day, couple of hours?" And I said, "I need four days." And my goal was to do a, a deep dive into the things that he had done. He was a, uh, a serial rapist, um, a serial kidnapper, and to understand his life in the timeframe by which Michaela Garecht went missing. And so this was the evolution of what I was trying to do. So I show up, he walks in. He says, "Who are you?" I said, "Well, I'm Special Agent O'Neill. I'd like to talk to you about, um, your history. I read your manifesto, and I had some questions." And he said, "You know, uh, when they told me I had a visitor," he goes, "I wasn't gonna come in." He goes, "But the angels on my shoulder tell me that this would be a good, good talk." So he said, "Let's do it." We talked in detail every day for probably eight to nine hours. They brought him food. And the end of each day, I would say, "Phillip, um, I will be here tomorrow. If the, if the angels on your shoulder tell you to show up, please do. If not, then it was nice to meet you." And every day, he showed up.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett16:55

      Why did you say that?

   7. DODesmond O’Neill16:57

      There, there's a, there's a depth of understanding in terms of the head space that he is in. And so when you can connect, like, genuinely connect with that, you, you truly try to understand the other person, and there's power with that. In the course of those 36 hours, multiple times, he was very aggressive. He was very condescending. He called me a liar. Things he accused me of, you know, "I don't believe you are who you say you are. I don't believe you're here for the things you're saying you're here for. Um, I don't even know if you work for the federal government." And he's essentially questioned my integrity. Now, my purpose is not to make him feel that I'm smarter than him. It's not to belittle or berate him or, or have a, a question of, you know, integrity, 'cause I could have said, "You kidnapped an 11-year-old girl and kept her captive for 18 years, fathered two children with her, the first one at the age of 14, and your question to my integrity?" I didn't do that, because that's not why I was there. And so despite the fact that he got upset, despite the fact that he called me and accused me of all these different things, I stayed on my purpose. I stayed on my mission. And when we were done, when we finished, I went back to the prosecuting attorney and said, "He's not your guy." And he said, "Are you sure?" And I said, "I'd bet my career on it."

   8. SBSteven Bartlett18:16

      How did you know?

   9. DODesmond O’Neill18:17

      There's a lot of things in regards to when you're looking at people from the perspective of telling the truth, in terms of the way that they, they talk and engage with you. Our conversation on Tuesday, and our conversation on Wednesday, and our conversation on Thursday, and our conversation on Friday all stayed very consistent. If I'm asking him for further clarification, he's providing for- for- further clarification. If I'm talking to him about, you know, something and there's some type of spontaneous correction where he's like, "Wait a minute. This happened, uh, before this," those are, those are indicators of truth. And if there are things that, you know, he, he talks about in terms of, like, things that are o- of complication, nobody's day goes perfect. And, you know, there were many times when he was telling me about the things he had done because, you know, he was a serial rapist, you know, and a, and a serial, you know, kidnapper, and he would drive around and pick up women and hitchhiking and he would, you know, rape them and let them go. Oftentimes, we would get into the details of, like, when those didn't go well,

4. 19:20 – 28:25

   Listening and Questioning: How to Truly Understand Others

   1. DODesmond O’Neill19:20

      right? And when all of a sudden, the, the girl would, would fight him off and run away. And so there was all these different complications and different things that he would talk about.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett19:27

      He handled the complications consistently is what you're saying?

   3. DODesmond O’Neill19:31

      When complications are introduced to a story, right, uh, people who lie don't do that, right? It's truth tellers will often do that because it's just like, "This is just what happened." Like, "These are the things that happened. This is my life in terms of where things were going to go." Overall, in terms of how that conversation went, there were those type of indicators that just made it trend more truthful than not. Like, there wasn't this big gap or this big weird moment when we're talking about Mikayla Garrett to where all of a sudden it's, like, missing pieces that I have to put in. There, there are no cues to deception. There are things that all of a sudden seem different and require you to do more questions, more asking, but that didn't occur around the time that we were looking for with that.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett20:11

      Okay.

   5. DODesmond O’Neill20:12

      So we finally... When we finished and then they went back and they looked at the evidence, they found a new fingerprint and were able to, um, charge and convict, uh, the person who did that. The reason I bring all of that up is because for the purpose aspects of what we're talking about, not losing sight of what your mission is, being focused in terms of what that is, the power of communication and staying online as it relates to what you want to accomplish is really powerful because it keeps you on track and it keeps you engaged and reminds you of why you're there. Not every relationship deserves that. Like, there's just some relationships you're like, "This just isn't worth it for me." If it matters to you, that mattered to me. It mattered to me not because for me, it mattered to me b- for that family. And there is a difference between having a profession and being a professional. Having a profession is what you do. Being a professional is the culmination of everything that you've done at that moment, at that time for a specific purpose. And that's what I had to bring in with that, because that was what was at stake with this.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett21:17

      Um, so you have this, these four cards-

   7. DODesmond O’Neill21:20

      Purpose, yeah.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett21:20

      ... in front of you. We've done the P which is-

   9. DODesmond O’Neill21:22

      P.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett21:22

       ... staying focused on your purpose when you go into a conversation to, to fend off the emotion which might-

   11. DODesmond O’Neill21:26

       Correct.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett21:26

       ... distort you and take you off gu- And I'm so guilty of that, you know.

   13. DODesmond O’Neill21:28

       Everybody is.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett21:29

       So guilty of that with, especially with like, you know, conversations with, with my partner where there's emotion involved and-

   15. DODesmond O’Neill21:36

       100%.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett21:36

       ... there's certain areas where, you know, blame might be prevalent. So the L that you have there.

   17. DODesmond O’Neill21:42

       So the L is listen. This becomes a thing that people are worst at because it's a lot to do. Think about right now. Think about my conversation with you at this moment. I'm speaking. So internally, my internal vocabulary and the conversation that I'm having in my head is running about 800 to 1,000 words a minute. I'm speaking to you in about 120 to 150 words a minute. There's a lot that's being edited. There's a lot of things that I think that I'm saying or I wanna say, I'm trying to engage with you. There's also something called theory of mind which is me watching you and trying to understand, is what I'm saying on point with what Stephen wants to hear or wants to hear for his audience? Do I need to change anything? Is this landing on him? And then if your non-verbals change and your verbals change, then I have to readjust maybe what I'm editing and my theory of mind will readjust too because I'm like, "Oh, I just lost him here. I have to, I have to readjust." Simultaneously, you are listening to me and you're listening to the 120 to 150 words I'm giving you, but your brain can process this at like 400 to 600 words per minute. So you have too much cognitive bandwidth. You have the ability to listen to me and then do multiple other things which is oftentimes why people will drift out or you'll start thinking of something else or you'll think of your, your notepad because you got it, you got it figured out. And this is when it becomes really easy to be convinced and not curious because you're like, "I kind of know where this is going," and so you check out. So you actually have to do something called cognitive inhibition, you have to kind of narrow that bandwidth to stay fully engaged with me. That's why when you hear people say, like, active listening, it's hard. It's hard to do because you have to be attentive to the other person, you have to listen, you have to look, you have to pick up their verbal and their non-verbal behavior, and you then you have to do something with that. Stephen Covey says most people don't listen with the intent to understand, they listen with the intent to reply. And if you are simply just waiting for your turn to talk, then you and I are not... are not connecting.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett23:56

       Controlling conversation comes from listening, not talking. So if I'm trying to... if I'm trying to get some information out of someone, I should have a bias towards just letting them speak at me?

   19. DODesmond O’Neill24:07

       You should. You know, you, you hear about this, like, always let the other person talk more. That's great, but if both people are doing that, then the conversation is not progressing. The conversation is an extension...... of what you and I are speaking with. And when we've gone from listening, in terms of what that looks like, the next thing you have to do, which gets into this, is the A, which is, which is ask, right? So the A being this. If you are paying attention to me, and you're picking up on things that I'm saying, the changes in my body language, and there's something you don't understand, you need to ask. This is where you're gonna deepen the conversation. This is where you show somebody that you're active listening, you're curious, and you're open, and you're trying to understand them. If you look at empathy research, we typically think that we can understand our significant other or different people at a much higher level than we actually do. For a stranger, it's called, it's called empathy accuracy. For a stranger, your ability to understand their headspace is like 20%. For a friend, somebody close to you, it's like 30. For your significant other, it's no higher than 40%, which means that despite you thinking that you know what she's thinking, you got a four out of ten chance of being right. And if that conversation gets emotional, that 40% can go down as low as 15 because you start to pull in to be like, "I- I'm, I'm guarding myself here. I'm guarding my ego." When your ego is on the line, your ears go offline, because you stop hearing what she's having to say and you start protecting yourself in terms of what you're trying to do. So your ability to be empathetic when things are hard becomes harder, and you have to be very mindful of that. Let's say you come home from, a early morning workout, and your spouse says, "Hey, Steven, uh, how was it?" And you say, "It's pretty tough." There's a lot that you can do with that. This is what she could do. She could say nothing. So now, maybe you understand that maybe she doesn't wanna talk about this or she's not interested in it. That's one. The second thing she could say to you would be like, "Well, sweetheart, that's why you look the way you do." She has now made the assumption, right, her, her empathy accuracy, that she knows what you meant by the word tough. And so if she says to you, "Well, that's how you look," and that's not what you meant, now you feel that there's a separation between what you're hoping she would pick up on and what she actually said. The third thing she could say would be like, "What do you mean by tough?" Because the ambiguity of that is the word tough. Who knows what that means? It could be a lot of different things. She's now shown you, "I- I'm into you. I'm tuning in." And the power of something like that, when you talk about deepening relationships and increasing that connection, that's how it happens. The same thing with your non-verbal behavior, right? You look at non-verbal behavior, 66% of, of what we give is non-verbal. And so if I, through the course of my conversation with you, if all of a sudden we're talking and you're just like... (sighs)

   20. SBSteven Bartlett27:03

       Folding my arms.

   21. DODesmond O’Neill27:05

       Y- so folding your arms could be a sign of just you're folding your arms. It could be a sign of you not liking my question if you roll your eyes. So if I see that and it matters to me, then I need to say something to the effect of, "It seems like..." versus, "I think..." 'Cause I think is the pronoun saying it's about me, and it's just like, "I don't care what you think." "It seems like what you just did maybe was because you didn't like what I had to say, because I saw you cross your arms and roll your eyes. Do I have that right?" So now, you have a choice where you can either say you... yes, you got that right for these reasons, or, no, I just folded them because I was comfortable and, you know, whatever the case may be. But it is a matter if I see you and there... and it's, and it's in harmony with the conversation that we were having that seems like it's, you know, something that shows that it could be potentially a problem, I need to ask about it. You and I are having a conversation right now and you folding your arms isn't going to be like a red flag that I'm like, "Oh, I just saw you folded your arms when I said that." But if it's something that there's some emotion related around that, and it's important, and I'm trying to express something to you when I see you roll your eyes or cross your arms, "Hey, hey, Steven, I noticed when I brought up this thing about our family, um, you kind of leaned back and crossed your arms and rolled your eyes. It seems like you didn't approve of that. Is, is that... do I have that right?" So now, it's on you to explain that or not.

5. 28:25 – 31:14

   Reading Body Language Without Jumping to Conclusions

   1. SBSteven Bartlett28:25

      On this point of body language, um, as someone that sits here and I guess interviews people for like f- you know, four or five hours at a time sometimes... Over the last five years, I have come to learn certain body language, um, patterns in my guests.

   2. DODesmond O’Neill28:40

      Okay.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett28:41

      One of the most obvious ones is when I ask the guest a question that is causing them some potential discomfort in some way... And when I say discomfort, I should probably define that as maybe it's a difficult question for whatever reason.

   4. DODesmond O’Neill28:55

      Sure.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett28:57

      What I tend to see is I tend to see them cross their arms.

   6. DODesmond O’Neill28:59

      Okay.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett29:00

      That's like a really consistent pattern. It's almost like, uh, it's almost as if they're telling me that this is a little bit difficult. And it's, it holds to be true.

   8. DODesmond O’Neill29:07

      Do you ask them?

   9. SBSteven Bartlett29:08

      So-

   10. DODesmond O’Neill29:08

       "I noticed when you crossed your arms, you know, when I asked you that question. Is it something with this question that bothered you?" Or do you just let it go?

   11. SBSteven Bartlett29:14

       I let it go, but it, but it... they've already told me.

   12. DODesmond O’Neill29:16

       Okay.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett29:17

       So I've already... They... I don't need to ask them because I, I know, I now know that there's something there where there's emotion.

   14. DODesmond O’Neill29:23

       Sure.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett29:23

       It's kind of the way that I, I see it.

   16. DODesmond O’Neill29:25

       It's what it is. More than likely, it's what it is, and I think there's power to that because your perception, right? So it's... you bring this back. Like, your pattern recognition of all the guests that you've done and the association or the, the connection of that in terms of the question that you ask and they cross their arms, like, that's where that comes from. That's where that all of a sudden, that thing where you're just like, "I feel it, but I don't really know it," it's just like, you don't know that to be the case because it could be a number of different things, but because of the pattern recognition you've seen all the time, that gives you the chance of saying, "This is... there's some emotion here." So either engage it or tread lightly, depending on which way you wanna go.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett29:59

       Both.

   18. DODesmond O’Neill29:59

       Yeah.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett29:59

       And that's what happens. So instead of saying, like, you know, "Why, why did you cross your arms?" I will ask them may- potentially how, how that memory makes them feel-

   20. DODesmond O’Neill30:06

       100%.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett30:06

       ... or what they, they feel about that.

   22. DODesmond O’Neill30:08

       Yes.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett30:08

       And, and that tends to be... Uh, it just, it's so... you know, 'cause people are always talking, they say, "Does body language matter? Does it count for anything? Can you interpret someone's body language to understand if they're telling you the truth?" Is any of this stuff true in your, in your view?

   24. DODesmond O’Neill30:21

       No.... you should, you should look at body language because it, it, it, it is a language in terms of what somebody is, is showing you. You look at body language, and if you see something that is a change, just like the crossing their arms, then you need to be curious about it.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett30:37

       So it's really about a change in state.

   26. DODesmond O’Neill30:39

       It's a change of, it's a change of what somebody's doing and the timing of that. So you just said, like, when I ask something that is personal or emotional, they'll talk about it. They'll cross their arms because maybe it's just now, like, this psychological thing where I wanna guard myself a little bit, maybe I wanna kinda close up a little bit. Who knows? But if it's something where you're just, like, I noticed it and you don't need to use it. Like, you could ask them if you wanted to, but you're just like, "Oh, they already, they already told me, so I don't need it." But for anybody else, if you see that and you're talking and somebody crosses their arms, don't just assume that's what it is, because if you assume and you're wrong, you're going down

6. 31:14 – 35:18

   Finding Resolution and Handling Insults in Conflict

   1. DODesmond O’Neill31:14

      the wrong track.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett31:15

      Hmm. And so throughout this framework for having hard conversations, we've covered the P which is state your purpose, the L, the lis- which is listen-

   3. DODesmond O’Neill31:26

      Yeah.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett31:26

      ... the A which is to ask.

   5. DODesmond O’Neill31:27

      Ask.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett31:28

      Is there anything else in the framework?

   7. DODesmond O’Neill31:31

      The N, which is the next steps. So, to have a plan means to understand all of these different things and the way that you approach that. And the next steps is, how do you wanna resolve this? Like, what's the end goal with this? Is there anything that I can do that we can, you know, further our relationship, where both you and I can, can be in alignment?

   8. SBSteven Bartlett31:55

      Do you ask them or do you propose?

   9. DODesmond O’Neill31:56

      I would always ask them. If I'm engaged, right... So perhaps let's go back to the, the conversation that you may have with, you know, this, this individual where you're just like, "This person's a narcissist," and so forth. If you're engaging them and you're the one who wants to really have this conversation and you're hoping that you can find some type of resolution, you have to ask if there's resolution with that. So something to the effect of, "Do you think that you and I can find an amicable way forward where when I, when you and I engage, you know, we can really enjoy each other's time and, and this thing not go bad? Like, do you see that in our future at all? Yes or no?" And then it's either, "Yes." "Okay, what does that look like for us? Like, how do we have that? Because I'm, I'm having this conversation with you because my relationship with you matters, but there are things that happen within that are, that are frustrating and that cause me not to really wanna engage. I do wanna find a way to do that, 'cause that is most important to me. How best do we do that?" There is no magic bullet by which makes everything, every conversation go perfect. There's none. Y- you are, you are part of that conversation. The other person is part of that conversation. You have your perspective. They have their perspective. You have what you think is right or, or, or think is fair. Fairness is subjective, because what you think is fair is, just means what you think is fair. And so the hardest part is to walk away and feeling like you should, there should have done more you can do. The power becomes knowing how to address that, and if it doesn't go right, then you walk away and be like, "You know what? It just didn't go right, and I'm okay with that."

   10. SBSteven Bartlett33:24

       What if they start insulting you in the conversation?

   11. DODesmond O’Neill33:27

       Okay. What's your purpose of being in the conversation?

   12. SBSteven Bartlett33:31

       I'm trying to get them to stop being so rude to me when we're on the same bank of telephones at the call center.

   13. DODesmond O’Neill33:37

       So it is a matter of if she's being rude to you, it, it's addressing that at the moment, right? "Uh, you know, I, I noticed that we're having this conversation that you're being really aggressive, really rude, and really condescending."

   14. SBSteven Bartlett33:50

       So you call it out?

   15. DODesmond O’Neill33:51

       Yeah. Be very specific in terms of what it is. Like, uh, you know, if she, if she calls you and she uses, you know... She calls you a name or whatever the case may be and you're like, "You know what? You're being rude," and she's just like, "What did I do?" and you're like, "You're just being rude," that's unhelpful. Like, give her the context by which you feel that she's being rude, because maybe she does something outside of a name where you're like, "You're being rude," and maybe to her, that's not rudeness. Maybe it's her directness, right? But if she's like, "You know what? You're... Steven, you're just an asshole," or whatever the case may be, and I would say, "Hey, it, it seems like as of right now, like, you know, you're very condescending. You've called me a name to include an asshole. Can you explain to me specifically right now why that is?" And make her back it up. Make her explain to you what it is that... "Is there something about, is there something about me you don't like? Is there something about my, my work ethic that you don't like, or maybe the way that I'm doing this? You've been here longer than me, so is... perhaps there's something else that I'm doing or not doing that you think is wrong, because I am not understanding your anger and your venom and your need to insult me, and I would really try to understand what that is." So you're having a very direct conversation with her, very specific to what she's saying. It does not mean that that's going to fix it. She could just be an asshole. And it's one of those things where you have to be like, "I am going to address this. I'm not going to return in kind. I don't have to turn into that person as well. I can walk away from that conversation and be like, 'You know what? I handled that the best I could.'" Doesn't mean it's going to

7. 35:18 – 43:55

   Keeping Emotions in Check and Avoiding ‘Me, Me, Me’ Syndrome

   1. DODesmond O’Neill35:18

      fix it.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett35:18

      Are there any tactics that interrogators are taught or that you teach interrogators for keeping your emotions in check? Because, you know, we- we go into those conversations. Someone calls you an asshole. You- your cortisol starts spiking. You get into your amygdala. You get stressed. You get emotional. You end up calling them an asshole back. But is there... I don't know. Is there breath work? What, what do interrogators get taught?

   3. DODesmond O’Neill35:39

      In the heat of the moment, at the, at that time, you have no time to do breath work. This is real-time stuff in terms of what you're trying to do. If you go in and you understand your purpose, and again, I don't mean to go back to the plan, but what happens is you become... you can be pulled out very quickly. And all of a sudden, if you are trying to get information from somebody and one of their strategies, because they maybe don't wanna give you information, one of their strategies is to insult you, and now you're insulting them back, one, you're not gonna get anything. Two, you fell under their strategy. So what you have to do is you have to address that. I am... Something to the effect of, "I see that when I asked you that or... and all of a sudden, like, it seems like there's a change in our relationship to where now you're being really aggressive. Why is that?"

   4. SBSteven Bartlett36:23

      So you're continually calling it out?

   5. DODesmond O’Neill36:25

      Yes, because I am asking you to back up your emotions.It, it- because if it's, if it's BS, if you're just doing that because you're trying to hide the ball someplace else, I'm gonna call you out on it. It's also showing me that I am not afraid to confront this type of behavior, and I'm seeing it, and I am, I am really trying to engage with you in a very amicable, genuine way. And if you are going to treat me a certain way, I am going to understand what that is. You're also showing that you're not doing it in kind.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett36:54

      Is part of this showing that you're strong?

   7. DODesmond O’Neill36:57

      It's less about being strong and more about being competent and confident in what you're doing. Because if you allow, in anybody, not just in an interrogation room, in, in, in any, in any conversation, if you lose your cool, you lose control. You have to be mindful of that. I was overseeing a, an internal affairs interview. Uh, and I was gonna go in and talk to this person at the end. I was thinking about doing a polygraph with them. But before that was going to happen, the, the case agent, the person who had the investigation, was talking to the subject. It was a road rage incident where this, uh, agent, uh, had been accused of road rage and pulling his gun out on a, a civilian. So this was the conversation they were... that they were having. And I'm listening to this in an interview room, right, in, in, in terms of, like, a two-way, two-way mirror. And the subject is very aggressive. He's very angry. And he's very angry to the point of, like, he's like, "I don't know why you don't believe me with this. I keep telling you these things, and you keep asking me the same questions. I think this is a bunch of BS." The investigator comes back and he's just like, "Because I think you're a liar, and you're not telling me the truth in terms of what it is, and you're causing us to be in this room a lot longer, and this is a problem." So now they're both yelling at each other, like yelling at each other. And it was one of these things where I'm watching this unfold, and it wasn't the subject's job to maintain his composure. It was the investigator's. Because his goal is not to belittle this other agent. His goal was to find out did this or did this not happen? And he lost sight of that, and he came out of the room to me, and he's like, "What do you think?" And I'm like, "Well, I'm not gonna polygraph him. I mean, this guy is so emotional right now, like, that's not gonna happen." And he goes, "You know what? This guy is just an asshole anyway." And I'm like, "I don't think he's the asshole in the room, because the other guy was the asshole in the room." Because he allowed himself to get pulled out of what he should have been doing, because now he wanted to have the game of who's the bigger, who's the bigger jerk in the room. You can do it, and again, if, if you wanna burn that bridge, burn it. But if, (laughs) if you wanna maintain a relationship, or you want to maintain your profession, or you are trying to get to some resolution, you cannot lose your cool.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett39:16

      I guess that's what it comes down to, is most of the time, we're not clear on the goal going into the conversation, so we, we have nothing to be anchored to, so-

   9. DODesmond O’Neill39:23

      True.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett39:24

       ... it just, it's, we-

   11. DODesmond O’Neill39:25

       Absolutely.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett39:25

       It's just like getting into the washing machine.

   13. DODesmond O’Neill39:27

       Absolutely what it is.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett39:27

       We just spin around and around and round-

   15. DODesmond O’Neill39:29

       Yes, absolutely.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett39:30

       ... and walk away with a-

   17. DODesmond O’Neill39:30

       And, and-

   18. SBSteven Bartlett39:31

       ... worse relationship.

   19. DODesmond O’Neill39:31

       And, and the power really comes from if this person is insulting you, and they're angry, and they're doing these things, and you're sitting there, and you're asking good questions, and you're keeping your composure, there is a lot of power with that. And I mean power in a, in a way that shows, like, I'm in, I'm in control of myself. I am well aware of what's going on as this relationship and this conversation is, is happening. Uh, I am not going to fall into this, because this matters to me in terms of this other thing.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett39:59

       I've heard you say that you think people suffer from me, me, me syndrome. What does that mean?

   21. DODesmond O’Neill40:06

       So the me, me, s- me syndrome is everything, everything is about me, right? I mean, it seems obvious with that, but, like, you can even look at things from, like, a cultural perspective. You could look at, like here, you know, in the, in the US, in Western civilizations, like, we are primarily, like, a dignity culture, where we are... it's all about us, right? It's all about that internal, that internal feeling th- that we have. And so everything is predicated on our job, our success, the things that we do. The external world doesn't really matter in terms of our, our success or failure. So a lot of it is what is in your headspace, and how do you manage that? Because the problem that I see, and what I think comes within communication is we do a lot of self-reflection. We rarely do a lot of outward reflection on the other person. Some of the best negotiators i- there will spend more than half of their time thinking about somebody else. So a very personal story. Um, when I was 21, my father passed away, and he had been battling cancer for, for three years. And so when he passed away, uh, I have four siblings, and my mom was there. So when he passed away, he passed away at home, and all five of us were there. Several years later, uh, I'm having this conversation on the day that my dad died a- about the day that my dad died. I'm having this with my, my sister and my three younger brothers, and we're talking about where we were and so forth. And my sister says, "Yeah, I, I can't watch The Simpsons without thinking of, of Dad." And I said, "What do you, what do you mean?" She's like, "Well, the, the, the TV was there, and The Simpsons were on," and she's like, "I always just remember that." And I was like, "There's a, there's a TV in the room?" She's like, "You don't remember a TV being in the room?" And I'm like, "I have... Absolutely not. I have no idea that there was a TV in the room." I didn't code it. That wasn't the thing that was important. Her perspective and the way that she saw that moment affected her differently than everybody else in that room. And so to go back to the me, me, me, when you fail to take into consideration that other people have other experiences based on how they pick up the world, how they do things in the world, and you think that it's just about you, you're, you are gonna have a really hard time having a deep, honest, connective relationship with somebody if it's just about you. You can do it, and a lot of people do it.You know, they're looking for that, that way to, you know, make people drawn to them and make people connect to them. And, and that's fine, but if you are trying to... I guess, Stephen, if you just wanna be like a genuine person and you wanna have a relationship, don't make it about you.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett42:53

       I've just finished writing my third book. I haven't firmed up the title yet, but I have started mocking up some different designs, and I've been doing this with Adobe Express, which is one of our sponsors. What I love about Adobe Express is that it makes it so easy for me to obsess over the tiniest details, the typography, the font, the color, the text placement, the stuff that might sound petty to most people, but actually compounds to create something that stands out, something that's one better than the rest. And designing my cover art has reminded me of how many creative things I've learned over the year, but it's also reminded me that there are so many creative minds around me that are also sitting on their own secrets. So I've created the One Better Guide in Adobe Express to bring those tips to you. And in it, you'll find principles from the very, very best in their industry turned into quick and easy practices for you to apply, so you can train yourself to create exactly like the best performing teams in the world do. Just head over to adobe.ly/onebetter to download Adobe Express now, and make sure you visit the Learn tab to discover how you can become one better than

8. 43:55 – 51:14

   Influence vs Manipulation and Getting People to Open Up

   1. SBSteven Bartlett43:55

      the rest. I was thinking this earlier, I was thinking one of the things in the pod- this podcast that I've learned is if I, um, if I wanna increase the probability that someone opens up and tells me something, one of the things I do is I share myself.

   2. DODesmond O’Neill44:07

      Yeah.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett44:07

      So, you know, I might be asking someone about their childhood, and it's quite clear to me now that one of the ways, especially if they end up crossing their arms and get uncomfortable-

   4. DODesmond O’Neill44:15

      Yeah.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett44:15

      ... is just to pause for a second and share my own childhood.

   6. DODesmond O’Neill44:17

      Yeah.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett44:18

      So if I've identified that one of your values is, I don't know, you wanna be a good family man, might you mention that you're a family man yourself as a way to build a bridge?

   8. DODesmond O’Neill44:26

      So, if it's honest... So, so that's a great question, but this becomes a thing where you have to look at things if you are trying to influence or manipulate somebody. If it's honest, and it fits within that conversation at that moment, because this is what I, based on our conversation, I think this person needs to hear, then sure, if it's real. If it's not, if I'm lying to him, because I'm trying to say, "Well, I'm a family man, you're a family man, like, we're, we're good," now you're manip- now you're manipulating the person, and that's a whole different conversation. So, to go back to what you said, if, if I understand this guy's values, and I understand that there is a sense of... let's say a sense of honesty. Maybe if there's a, a part of this person that's also honest, or there's also a sense of he wants to be... (sighs) I don't know, he wants his kids to see him as a, as a, uh, as a man of integrity, right? Let's just say that. So maybe, maybe that starts to become a conversation that we have as it relates to, um, you know, "I can only imagine, you know, the difficulty that this has with you. As, as you've told me, you know, you're a family man." I'm not gonna say, "You're a family man," I'm gonna say, "As you told me, you're a family man. And one of the things that you said about being a family man was how important it is your kids to, to kind of like lead by your mo- your model, like your role model aspects of that, by honesty and openness and, and, and those type of things. So," do you hear where I'm going?

   9. SBSteven Bartlett45:48

      Yeah.

   10. DODesmond O’Neill45:48

       So I'm trending in the direction by which that I am trying to bring online still his father, but a different value under what it means to be a father. 'Cause I don't wanna talk about being present, 'cause that's probably gonna go away, but if he is trying to teach his kids to own your mistakes, then maybe that's the direction I go. But how am I going to get that? I'm gonna get that because I'm gonna start off my conversation with him in a very honest, genuine way that I'm gonna try to understand, who is this person across from me?

   11. SBSteven Bartlett46:17

       And what's the difference between manipulation and influence?

   12. DODesmond O’Neill46:21

       Influence is about nudging a person in a certain direction at a certain time that's beneficial for both you and them. That's influence. Got it?

   13. SBSteven Bartlett46:33

       Mm-hmm.

   14. DODesmond O’Neill46:34

       Manipulation is you nudging a person in a specific direction because it's good for you. It's not good for them. And so, you'll lie, you'll, you'll do whatever you need to do to, to close the deal, to get them to do something, to give them to give you something. That's manipulation, because it's often one of those things that it has negative consequences to it in terms of the person who did it. You know, maybe they never know, but you manipulated them.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett46:58

       Which is interrogations, no? Because this guy's gonna go, he's gonna get life in jail if he admits that he killed this child. So, I'm... That's not in his interests, but it's in mine, so I'm gonna manipulate him to give me the secrets.

   16. DODesmond O’Neill47:10

       If that's what you wanna do, and that's the direction you think you need to do, then by all means you can do it, and here in the US, it is legal that you can lie to subjects.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett47:20

       Oh, so you-

   18. DODesmond O’Neill47:20

       But...

   19. SBSteven Bartlett47:21

       So you're saying lying is the, the, the moment where it becomes manipulation?

   20. DODesmond O’Neill47:24

       Yes. That becomes the shortcut, and that becomes a way not just within the interrogation room. Like, I think what becomes important, and I've seen this come up a lot, people are all about, like, influence. Like, you hear that come up quite a bit. If you wanna influence somebody, this is how you do it. You're honest with them, you're clear, and you're transparent, because influence is about, "How do I feel about you?" Not about all the things that you're doing in that moment, because if I don't, uh, if trust isn't, isn't even on the table, if I don't trust you to begin with, or I think that, to go back to what you had said, there's this pattern recognition where I'm like, "I just think there's something wrong with this," you're not going to be able to influence me. If I am honest with you in everything that I do because that's how I carry myself, not only does it lower your cognitive load because you're not lying to somebody else, but it underscores who you stand for and who you are as a person. And with that, people are gonna see that and say, "You know what? Stephen's very transparent. He said this was a good deal, and I believe that for these reasons." It's a matter of you being honest with that. I, I always question now, like, 'cause I see it a lot, and it came up in the, in the questions that, that I was talking to your team about. It's like, why does everybody wanna influence somebody? Like, why, why do they... What, what is that? Do you know? Like, why does it come up all the time?

   21. SBSteven Bartlett48:36

       Because...

   22. DODesmond O’Neill48:37

       What are people trying to accomplish?

   23. SBSteven Bartlett48:39

       Is they want to accomplish something. They have a goal.

   24. DODesmond O’Neill48:41

       For who?

   25. SBSteven Bartlett48:42

       For themselves.

   26. DODesmond O’Neill48:43

       Right. So is that, is that influence?

   27. SBSteven Bartlett48:48

       But it gets the job done, for some- for some people.

   28. DODesmond O’Neill48:51

       Sure, it does. But-

   29. SBSteven Bartlett48:52

       Like, I'm thinking about that. Was it Carnegie? Or what's that book by... It's probably behind me somewhere, called Influence. And it talks about the- the s- five pillars of influence, things like scarcity So it's... yeah. ... and risk taking.

   30. DODesmond O’Neill49:01

       So it's, uh, Robert Cialdini.
9. 51:14 – 55:14

   Trust: Building It, Losing It, and Getting It Back

   1. DODesmond O’Neill51:14

      deal.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett51:15

      And is this how you build trust with people? Or is trust a- a different-

   3. DODesmond O’Neill51:20

      Yes.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett51:20

      ... or adjacent point?

   5. DODesmond O’Neill51:21

      So, trust is about being vulnerable. Trust is about being open and sharing a little bit about yourself. So truly, Steven, the question becomes, is what I've shared with you in good hands? Because if it's not, that's a problem, right?

   6. SBSteven Bartlett51:41

      Mm-hmm.

   7. DODesmond O’Neill51:41

      Let me ask you a question. Do you have a secret that maybe you've never told anybody or you've told just one or two people?

   8. SBSteven Bartlett51:47

      Yeah.

   9. DODesmond O’Neill51:48

      You do? You got one in mind?

   10. SBSteven Bartlett51:49

       Yeah.

   11. DODesmond O’Neill51:49

       What is it?

   12. SBSteven Bartlett51:50

       (laughs) I can't. There's millions of people listening.

   13. DODesmond O’Neill51:53

       Okay. But- but if these millions of people weren't watching, would you tell me?

   14. SBSteven Bartlett51:59

       ... Yeah.

   15. DODesmond O’Neill52:00

       Okay. So, the reason that you're not telling me or in front of these millions of people is why? Why are you not- why are you not telling us your secret?

   16. SBSteven Bartlett52:09

       Um, because of consequence.

   17. DODesmond O’Neill52:12

       Okay.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett52:13

       Some- someone's gonna clip it. Someone's gonna put it on the internet. Someone's gonna-

   19. DODesmond O’Neill52:15

       Sure.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett52:16

       ... fuck me up.

   21. DODesmond O’Neill52:16

       Th- there's a reason for it, right? There's a reason that you're not trusting in terms of what it was. Maybe you trust me just because of the- the relationship that we've built to this point, um, but there's probably other things that you wouldn't trust me with. When you talk about trust... I- i- if you look at concentric rings, you know, in terms of the- the trust around you, the- the center ring should be self-trust. It should be you. You should be able to trust yourself more than you trust anybody else. If you don't, you probably need to do a little bit of work, right?

   22. SBSteven Bartlett52:45

       What does that mean in reality, me trusting myself?

   23. DODesmond O’Neill52:48

       Do you trust that you will do the things that you want to do or you oughta do, or do- do you keep yourself in that direction? Do you keep yourself accountable?

   24. SBSteven Bartlett52:56

       Mm-hmm.

   25. DODesmond O’Neill52:56

       Right? That becomes this thing where... Can you make decisions, or are you a person, like, "I don't make any decisions. I let somebody else make decisions," or, "I run everything by everybody else because I don't trust myself to make the right decision"? Then you have to work on your decision-making because you have to find a way to build your trust up.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett53:10

       Mm-hmm.

   27. DODesmond O’Neill53:11

       Outside of that initial ring, it's- it should be a ring of a handful of people that have unconditional trust, right? And these are the people that, no matter what, like, you've given them that trust. You- you believe in them. And it should be a small circle, and this is where I think people go wrong. They're like, "Ah, you know, I- I- I share everything with people." Then they- then they're crushed when one of those people that they've given unconditional trust with break it. That's a problem. I have probably... You know, my siblings are all really close to me, so I have them. There's four of them. Um, outside of that, I have my, you know, I have my wife and a select few friends, you know, that I know that if I call, they're like, "What's... we're good." Um, outside of that, you should... everybody else should be conditional trust. People should earn your trust, right? They should be honored to have it. Like, don't give it away for free. And if you have somebody's trust, you should respect that if they've given that to you. Be... I- but I think, and I've seen it, I- people give away trust way too much, because the person will be amazing in this one spot, and all of a sudden, they get the halo effect, and they're like, "Well, they're great here, they must be great here." It's this- it's this arc of, "They're awesome everywhere, and so I'm going to trust them with these other things." Then when, again, they break it, they violate it, the way you feel...... is just this, this, this violation of, you know, somebody took what you gave them and just destroyed it. It's hard to come back from that. It's hard to... Once you re- once you lose trust, like if you lose somebody's trust, it's really, really hard to get back.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett54:50

       Is there anything you can do to get back, do you think?

   29. DODesmond O’Neill54:53

       What I know that you can do, and doesn't always work, you have to be accountable for why you lost it, whatever that is, very specific. It's gonna take time and a lot of consistency. To... Consistency meaning that you show them consistently, time and time again, that you are a person that, you know, can be trusted.

10. 55:14 – 1:07:25

    Leadership Under Uncertainty and Owning Your Decisions

    1. SBSteven Bartlett55:15

       On, um, on leadership principles, something I've heard you talk about as well, um, w- what, what do you think are the most important principles as it relates to leadership? 'Cause we've talked about trust there-

    2. DODesmond O’Neill55:25

       Mm-hmm.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett55:25

       ... and other things around communication and all these things. Is there, is there anything we haven't covered as it relates to being a great leader, in your perspective?

    4. DODesmond O’Neill55:33

       Somebody who's calm under chaos, that would be my definition of a leader. However, and I say that because leadership is a feeling, Steven. How do you make these people feel as it relates to my qualities as a leader? Do I do the things that register with you as leadership? Because I can tell you, when I was on a, a SWAT team, which is the Special Weapons And Tactics, this is where I learned the true essence of leadership, because I had some amazing commanders and, and team leaders on that team were under high stress. Under a stress like that, if you have people around you that are keeping their composure, that's leadership.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett56:14

       One of the elements there, I guess, as, uh, when you're in the SWAT as well, is dealing with huge amounts of uncertainty when pressure's on.

    6. DODesmond O’Neill56:21

       Sure.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett56:21

       When your life's at risk. I was reading about a study, which I think you mentioned some time ago, where they look at three groups of people doing the same exam, and were, uh, were sort of a- trying to ascertain how people make decisions with different degrees of certainty and information.

    8. DODesmond O’Neill56:36

       Yeah. What the, the study showed was... There were a group of students that, you know, were taking a test in college, and they were told that, you know, they had either passed or failed, or they had no idea whether they passed or failed. But prior to that, they were asked if they would, you know, take a, a vacation. And the people who passed and the people who failed, there was a higher percentage of them who chose to take a vacation after getting news that they had either passed college or failed college. The group that didn't know, there was a third group that was just like, "I'm un- I'm unsure," weren't able to really make a decision. And, and so what that, what the-

    9. SBSteven Bartlett57:14

       So just to be clear then, on that third group-

    10. DODesmond O’Neill57:16

        Yep.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett57:16

        ... they didn't have their exam results back, so they didn't take the action to book the vacation?

    12. DODesmond O’Neill57:20

        They, they were told, they were told that there was some malfunction in the ability to score their test and they would get their results at a later time.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett57:27

        Okay.

    14. DODesmond O’Neill57:28

        And so then they were asked to, you know, if they would also buy a vacation, and a farther fewer percentage, and I don't remember what it was, but a farther, uh, a much less percentage of them would take it than the people who both passed, 'cause I think there was like half the people who passed, or, or were told they passed, like took the, bought the vacation package. It was like a vacation trip to Hawaii. Around the same percentage, I believe, who failed the exam bought the vacation trip, but the people who couldn't decide just, they didn't have the cognitive bandwidth to, to really make a decision. So the ambiguity o- of not knowing really lessens our cognitive ability to, to go in a certain direction. And so when we don't know where to go, we often don't go anywhere.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett58:12

        That is a hallmark of great leaders, that they're able to decide even when there's very l- low certainty.

    16. DODesmond O’Neill58:17

        Sure. I would think that would come with, you know, the territory. I think if you're, if you're only a leader when it's calm, then y- you're not really a leader, you're somebody with a higher salary and a title. Like, leadership really shows up i- in those type of circumstances when, when things are uncertain. And so, you know, having the ability to manage things when not all the information's there, and doing the best you can with it, because, you know, oftentimes the, the best decision to make is the right one, and the worst one is to not make a decision at all. And so if you have those type of leaders who just can't think through that problem, then that's not a leader.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett58:56

        I remember when I spoke in Sao Paolo many years ago, Barack Obama was on stage and he said that as president, like when he went and got Bin Laden in that compound in Pakistan, that they didn't know if Bin Laden was there. They'd never visually properly ID'd him, so he had to make that decision to risk American lives with, as he said, 51% certainty-

    18. DODesmond O’Neill59:13

        Yeah.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett59:13

        ... or very low certainty. And he says that's the, the thing about being the president of the United States. You make huge calls with very little certainty.

    20. DODesmond O’Neill59:20

        Yeah.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett59:21

        And I've always thought about that in, in terms of my day-to-day life, and it als- has made me conclude that the most successful people that I've met do have that ability to be low certainty and make big calls-

    22. DODesmond O’Neill59:32

        Yeah.

    23. SBSteven Bartlett59:32

        ... um, with the peace of mind that they've made that call with the best available information-

    24. DODesmond O’Neill59:36

        Yeah.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett59:36

        ... and then the sort of inverse of that is some people listening right now, with even small decisions-

    26. DODesmond O’Neill59:42

        Yeah.

    27. SBSteven Bartlett59:43

        ... are trying to get to 100% certainty when obviously 100% certainty only exists in hindsight.

    28. DODesmond O’Neill59:48

        Y- you know, and that, that's, that's a really good, that's a really good point. I think that's, a lot of people struggle with that when it comes to just, just own your decision. Like, like own it. Like, whatever you choose to do, if you, if you make it not under high emotion and you do the best you can with the information that you have at that time, make a decision. Like, you know, as, as they say, it's, you know, if you make the wrong decision, then it's experience. If you make the right decision, then it's confirmation.

    29. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:14

        I think about this a lot. I think about, um, how maybe everyone listening could have a conversation with themselves about their own relationship with uncertainty.

    30. DODesmond O’Neill1:00:21

        Yeah.
11. 1:07:25 – 1:17:00

    Building Real Rapport and the Three Things to Stop Doing

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:26

       Of that research you've done on communication, is there anything we haven't talked about today that really surprised you in the research, that really caused a paradigm shift in what you thought communication was and now what you think it is?

    2. DODesmond O’Neill1:07:40

       Yeah. The research showed that your ability to build rapport with a person is what gives you the most power in terms of that connection. And different people, you know-

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:53

       And how do you build rapport?

    4. DODesmond O’Neill1:07:55

       Most people think that this is one of those things where you're just, y- you're just, you're overly kind, you're very complimentary, uh, you're talking about the weather, and now we've built rapport and then we're good. It's not how you build rapport. Rebuild- rebuilding rapport is understanding values in terms of a person. Rapport is understanding, you know, a person's presence and what they're needing from you. If I'm paying attention to you, and I'm engaged with you, and I'm making you feel seen and heard and understood, and by proxy, by the reciprocity of doing that, you do the same thing for me, that's rapport. When it comes into building rapport with somebody, read the room. If I came in and I have a list of questions, and I see you that you're, there's some emotional state that you're showing, if I wanna connect with you, I ask about that. I need to put my stuff aside. Before I can have the conversation I wanna have, I probably have to have the conversation you wanna have. And at that moment, it may be understanding what is going on in your head space. I could say, "Hey, Steven. You know, I'm Desmond O'Neil. You know, I know you were brought in this morning for, for these reasons. It's obvious to me right now that you seem really upset. Can you tell me what's going on right now?" And you could say, you know, "I don't know what's going on. I'm super scared. I've never been in jail before. My mom's sick at home, I don't know if there's anybody to take her to." Now how much information now do I have by the way that I can connect with you? Because if you tell me, "I am freaked out, I don't know what's going on," what do I now do? Do I go back to being like, "Well, that sucks," and go back to my list of questions? Or do I say, "How best can I help you with that?"

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:35

       And this builds rapport?

    6. DODesmond O’Neill1:09:36

       Yes. Because what I'm doing is I'm showing empathy. I'm listening to you. I'm, I'm giving you what you want. I'm lessening your ambiguity. I'm orienting you in terms of the direction that you're asking me to take you. You're asking me for clarity in terms of what's going to happen. I'm gonna answer that. I'm showing them that I am paying attention to them. I'm being authentic. I'm gonna follow up with the things that I do, 'cause I can come back later and be like, "Hey, we checked on your mom, she was good. We pulled your aunt in. Your aunt came and took care of her. If anything else comes up, let me know. I do have some questions that I need to get to. This is an important part of the investigation, but I, I can only imagine that there's a lot on your mind, and if things come up through our conversation, please, please ask me." That's rapport.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:15

       In, in those situations, I'm hearing many of the things that I read in that book Influence by Robert Cialdini.

    8. DODesmond O’Neill1:10:19

       Cialdini.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:20

       Cialdini. Um, I'm hearing reciprocity.

    10. DODesmond O’Neill1:10:22

        Yup.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:22

        You've done them a favor so now they're more likely to answer your questions.

    12. DODesmond O’Neill1:10:26

        Reciprocity is giving somebody something with, with the expectation that somewhere in the future they will give you something else. It's not a transactional thing. It's not like the only reason I'm doing this is because I want something from you in exchange. That's transaction.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:47

        So, so when you checked on that person's mom, that was reciprocity?

    14. DODesmond O’Neill1:10:52

        That was me following up with the commitment of saying that this is what I'm gonna do for you. You can do with it what you want, but-

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:57

        But you know that doing that is gonna increase the probability that they answer your questions?

    16. DODesmond O’Neill1:11:02

        No, I do that regardless. It, I could've, he could've said, "You know what? I, I appreciate you. Thank you for checking on my mom. Um, I, I want a lawyer. I don't wanna talk to you." You know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna check on his mom. You know why? 'Cause that's what I said I was gonna do. You know why? Because that's my self-congruence. That's what I do as a person when I give somebody my word, I'm gonna follow up with it. So in a situation like that, I will do those things because that's what he, he's, that's what I've told him I'm going to do.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:11:29

        Is there anything else on, um, on the point of having difficult conversations that we haven't covered, in your mind? 'Cause I know there's loads of people that they wanna get better at having those tricky conversations, and also just dealing with... What I think we see a lot is, like, people very keen to deal with difficult people. Is there anything there that we haven't touched on? We've got the plan framework, but just, just wanna check there's nothing we've missed.

    18. DODesmond O’Neill1:11:50

        No. I just think it was, I just think it was a plan framework, and it's not about making things complicated. It's actually about, you know, there's, there's things that you should take out, you know, when it comes to communication, as opposed to always adding things in, you know. It really becomes, like, extinction before acquisition. So I can, I can tell you when it comes to better communication, there are three things that you should stop doing right now. One of them is to stop trying to be right, one of them is to stop telling people you understand, and the third one is stop giving people your unsolicited opinion. Now, to break those down, stop, stop trying to be right. We talked about that one a little bit. The, the second one is stop telling people you understand. This is what I mean by that. You can understand, you can understand a person's words. You will never understand their head space, in terms of the, the specificity of that. And so what you will see is, if, if, if you're sharing a story, like if you short- shared a personal story with me. Let's say, let's say your father had passed away.And I'm like, "You know what, Steven? I completely understand. Um, my dad passed away too when I was young, so now we're connected. I have just, I've just taken away a moment for you because I made it about me, 'cause I, I thought that I understood something that you had experienced. In fact, your experience of a death, or your experience of your father at that moment is going to be completely different than mine. But for me to tell you that I understand is, is shortsighted."

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:21

        My girlfriend tells me sometimes that she wants me to say that I understand, and I think what she's saying is that maybe she wants to feel understood, and so she might be explaining how she feels. And then if I say, "Do you know what? I, I, I know, I do understand."

    20. DODesmond O’Neill1:13:37

        But do you?

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:39

        Sometimes I get to the point where I, I do understand what she's saying.

    22. DODesmond O’Neill1:13:42

        You understand what she's saying, but do you understand how she truly feels?

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:45

        No.

    24. DODesmond O’Neill1:13:45

        Okay. But that becomes-

    25. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:46

        'Cause I don't feel that.

    26. DODesmond O’Neill1:13:47

        You don't feel it.

    27. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:48

        But she just wants me to acknowledge.

    28. DODesmond O’Neill1:13:49

        She wants you to acknowledge it, so the difference is in terms of it was being genuine where you're like, "Look, I, I really understand how you feel," you probably don't.

    29. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:56

        How do I make her feel understood in that regard then without telling her I understand?

    30. DODesmond O’Neill1:14:02

        (sighs) To feel understood is to, is to listen to her, to be like, "Look, uh, you know, I... It sounds, it sounds tough. It sounds, you know, like this is something really on your mind." Like, w- and it kinda goes into our other thing where, like, stop giving people your opinion. You know, if she's, if she's expressing things to you and she's sharing how she wants to feel, she's probably not looking for you to tell her what to do, unless she's asked you for that. The first thing that we always do, and it happens all the time, is like, "Let me tell you what I think." What-
12. 1:17:00 – 1:21:23

    Regret, Growth, and Final Reflections on Connection

    1. DODesmond O’Neill1:17:00

       I spend my time here.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:01

       As you know, we have a closing tradition on the podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next, and the question that's been left for you is, what decision do you most regret, and would things have turned out better if you had made it differently? Ouch, that's a spicy one.

    3. DODesmond O’Neill1:17:20

       So I... Hmm. As much as this wants to be a spicy one, I can, I can categorically tell you that there's not a decision that I've made that I wish I would have re- made different. And I say that because it kinda goes back to I own my decisions in terms of the things that I have done. I, even when the story that I shared about, you know, when I was a police officer with the, the kid who was drinking. Like, I own those decisions. And in truth, like, all of those decisions have manifested itself for me to sit down here with you today and have this conversation. And so I can't tell you that there's something that I look back that I regret because I think that there's things we learn from, but I think for the most part, I don't use hindsight bias. I don't look back to say, "I wish there was something else." I use those things to, uh, to grow and to learn and be better, and, you know, had I made a different decision, maybe you and I wouldn't be sitting here. So, none.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:18:11

       But you still... I mean, if someone asked me that, I'd have loads of answers.

    5. DODesmond O’Neill1:18:14

       Like what?

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:18:16

       Just like th- ways that I handled situations in my life as an employee, like, "Ach, you know, I shouldn't, shouldn't have said that. Shouldn't have done that. I... Do you know? When my girlfriend said that, do you know, I shoulda just listened. And I wish I had because I think our relationship would be better." Or y- you know, some grudge I held or whatever, you know? Like, the, the messiness of being a-

    7. DODesmond O’Neill1:18:34

       But-

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:18:34

       ... emotional human.

    9. DODesmond O’Neill1:18:36

       So let me, let me ask this. A- and I think, uh, you know, I, I do question at times that that type of I wish and I regret, I think that also changes who you are as a person if you're like, "I woulda gone back and done diff-" We, we can all do that in some, and I don't mean that's petty, but in all some petty way. When I was writing my, my thesis-I would always come to my thesis adviser and she'd be like, "Nope, this isn't good, this isn't good, this isn't good." And so when I was done, there was like... I had like 30 p- She's like, "Just put this in the parking lot. Like, maybe we'll look at this, maybe we won't." So when I was done with my thesis, I had 30 pages that were in the parking lot. And I went to her and I go, "I feel like this is a lot of mistakes." And she goes, "You had to have this to have this." And so when- when I hear that, when it's just like, "Oh, I wish I would've done these things different," you would be a different person, right? It's all those perspectives. It's all those little things that you code and become a different person. You would be a different person if you had done those things differently. I'm not saying better or worse, but I'm saying I don't- I don't think that's a reason to look back and regret things.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:36

        Yeah, I probably would still have those mistakes in my future if I hadn't made them in the past as well, so maybe- maybe the very fact that I can identify them means that my self-awareness grew based on them, i.e. like, "I'm never gonna treat someone like that again" or "I'm never gonna say that thing again," because I learned the lesson-

    11. DODesmond O’Neill1:19:52

        Yeah.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:52

        ... so I'm a better person today because of that.

    13. DODesmond O’Neill1:19:54

        Yeah.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:56

        Desmond, thank you.

    15. DODesmond O’Neill1:19:57

        Thank you.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:57

        Thank you so much for doing what you do.

    17. DODesmond O’Neill1:19:58

        Mm-hmm.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:58

        And, uh, this is y- You said this is your first podcast, which is exciting.

    19. DODesmond O’Neill1:20:02

        It's my first podcast.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:03

        Thank you so much. We're done.

    21. DODesmond O’Neill1:20:04

        Thank you.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:07

        (instrumental music) If there's anything we need, it is connection, especially in the worlds we're living in today. And that is exactly why we created these conversation cards, because on this show, when I sit here with my guest and have those deep, intimate conversations, this remarkable thing happens time and time again. We feel deeply connected to each other. At the end of every episode, the guest I'm interviewing leaves a question for the next guest and we've turned them into these conversation cards. And we've added these twist cards to make your conversations even more interesting. And there are so many more twists along the way with the conversation cards. This is the brand new edition. And for the first time ever, I've added to the pack this gold card, which is an exclusive question from me. But I'm only putting the gold cards in the first run of conversation cards. So get yours now before the limited edition gold cards are all gone. Head to the link in the description below. (instrumental music)

Episode duration: 1:21:24