Suicidal Drug Addict To Elite Military Commando with Ben Williams | E68

1. 0:00 – 3:13

   intro

   1. BWBen Williams0:00

      Why am I at this point? And how the hell has someone died under my watch? (dramatic music) You can't even go and kill yourself. You can't even go hurt yourself. You're all fucking useless. (dramatic music) And I'm bel- beneath the surface, and you can hear the thumps overhead, like... (mimics thumping sounds) (dramatic music) And I turned around and looked at

   2. SBSteven Bartlett0:15

      Wow. This is the most gripping, inspiring, twisting conversation I've ever had on this podcast, ever. If you're squeamish, I'm gonna have to ask you to prepare. But even if you are, I'm begging you to follow this story. My guest grew up in a broken home, one plagued with domestic violence, with abuse, with heartbreak, and he moved to five, six, seven different schools as he stumbled through his childhood trying to find his way, trying to find out who he was, and then stumbled through his adolescence looking for purpose in life. And he was met with rejection, with pain, with confusion, with barriers. And as he spiraled into daily drug abuse, into addiction and into purposelessness, a job that he hoped would give him that sense of purpose ended in a manslaughter case. And this tragedy only caused him to spiral further. And as he reached the depths of his despair, he made that decision one day that he was going to leave his house, go for a drive, and end his life. For whatever reason, and thankfully, he didn't go through with it. And by fate or luck or faith or whatever you want to call it, whatever you believe, a short YouTube advert that popped up one day out of the blue would be the catalyst for him to pull himself out of his darkest, most desperate moment, to give up drugs, to overcome his mental challenges, to brush himself off, and to pursue his childhood dreams. He went from suicidal drug addict to elite commando, developing what he calls the Commando Mindset, a mindset and a set of values that you can learn. But his story doesn't stop there. His time as a commando is riddled with graphic violence, with heartbreak, with being injured by the Taliban while at war. He'll describe the moments after he was blown up, and turning around and seeing his friends laying there behind him in pieces, and losing some of those friends, being discharged from the military because of his injury, grappling with PTSD, finding comfort in alcohol and addiction again, getting himself in trouble with the law, finding him- himself in court, facing four years in prison, and then rebuilding himself once again, launching an incredible coaching company and working with elite performers, Harry Kane, Gareth Southgate, and the whole England team before they went off to the World Cup. And then the pandemic comes, and his coaching business collapses. But in typical Ben Williams fashion, adversity doesn't dictate his outcome. Thanks to the values ingrained in his Commando Mindset, he bounces back to launch an incredible tech company. What a wild, emotional, gripping ride you're about to go on. Honestly, congratulations for choosing to listen to this episode. Without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody is listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. (dramatic music) Ben, from doing this podcast

2. 3:13 – 13:06

   Your Childhood

   1. SBSteven Bartlett3:13

      over the last couple of years, one of the things that I've been reminded of, and, uh, an idea that's been reinforced in my mind is how important all of our childhoods are in influencing what we then become. And I studied childhood psychology between the age of like 16 and 18, and it blew my mind to understand, especially in those early years, how that sort of fundamentally shapes who we then become as adults. And it's, and it's, in some respects, often quite hard to shake.

   2. BWBen Williams3:40

      Mm.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett3:40

      Right? Um, you know that old adage of not being able to teach a new dog new tricks because we're so... We learn most of our behaviors when we're young. So my first question for you is, tell me about your childhood. Tell me about that experience. How did that shape you?

   4. BWBen Williams3:54

      Yeah. My, um, my parents had quite a rough divorce when I was around, I think, six, seven years old. Um, and I never speak about that divorce. I never go into detail, never talk about what it was, but it wasn't nice. And we sort of didn't see Dad for a while. And then the mortgage wasn't paid, and Mum had to take everything on, and we had to move, and we went from this lovely house to a very small house on a sort of council estate. And I think, at that age, I didn't really see it too much. I, I just... It was part of the journey. It was part of the process. I didn't recognize her problems. I didn't recognize what was happening, and it was just, "Oh, Dad's gone. We're probably young enough to just get on with this." And it's funny 'cause my kids are that age now, and I think about, "What are they processing now? What are they going through? How are they seeing this? What do they see every angle like?" Um, and then I think, as I got a little bit older, and I began to understand their separation a bit more and how it was not a clean break, it... I felt like I was a young child who almost wanted to protect his mum. I had my younger brother that I thought I wanted to, or knew I wanted to look after and protect. And then she found a boyfriend who wasn't a father figure. And I, I hope he wouldn't mind me saying that as well. He was just there in the background. So, but-

   5. SBSteven Bartlett5:26

      When you say, "It wasn't a clean break..."

   6. BWBen Williams5:28

      Hm.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett5:29

      ... you mean there was domestic violence issues or there was...

   8. BWBen Williams5:33

      It was, uh, it was an aggravated separation. That's pretty much-

   9. SBSteven Bartlett5:38

      Okay.

   10. BWBen Williams5:38

       ... as far as I'll go on it. Um, but we witnessed things.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett5:43

       Mm.

   12. BWBen Williams5:44

       We witnessed things, and I think that stays with you quite clearly in your mind as you move through. And when we go move and transition into this kinda new phase of our life, in a new house with a new man in the house, who wasn't really acting up as Dad, it was probably the most problematic area, to be Mum's dad and mum.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett6:05

       Mm.

   14. BWBen Williams6:06

       Um-And you can actually fall out with mum 'cause she's trying to be dad.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett6:10

       Oh, right, yeah.

   16. BWBen Williams6:11

       And vice versa as well. And I have probably the closest relationship in my entire family is with my mum because I recognize everything she's been through, and she's an extremely, uh, resilient lady who's got herself to where she is today. But it is true. And listening to your podcast and looking back on my own journey, you see every single little thing begins to affect you, I think, later down the line-

   17. SBSteven Bartlett6:37

       Mm-hmm.

   18. BWBen Williams6:37

       ... rather than what you're going through at that moment. It's all about that processing. And I don't think that processing happens very well when you're a child.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett6:44

       Mm-hmm.

   20. BWBen Williams6:44

       It's, as I just said, it's kind of next phase, next phase, next phase. You know, then all of a sudden six, seven schools later, um, and you don't fit in and, you know, I'm not the broken wing story. It, but (laughs) if you don't, if you come to school and you don't know anyone, you're the kid they go and pick on.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett6:59

       Mm-hmm.

   22. BWBen Williams7:00

       Uh, so that was part of the experience. And then, then you find your feet a little bit in the system. And like my sort of final school, that was kind of my make or break moment, and I think I went more towards break.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett7:14

       You, you said that y- when you're young, you don't really know what things mean.

   24. BWBen Williams7:17

       Mm-hmm.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett7:17

       So you're kind of experiencing them, but you're not, like, consciously processing them.

   26. BWBen Williams7:21

       Yeah.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett7:21

       But they are still sitting with you and having an impact on your world view.

   28. BWBen Williams7:25

       Mm-hmm.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett7:25

       They're, they're sh- telling you what a relationship looks like and what a relationship with, you know, your siblings or someone else or authority looks like, for example.

   30. BWBen Williams7:33

       Yeah.
3. 13:06 – 18:55

   The desire to be an alpha male

   1. SBSteven Bartlett13:06

      about wanting to be a bouncer because it would make you feel like an alpha male or whatever-

   2. BWBen Williams13:11

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett13:11

      ... um, and it would make you fit in. Why, why did... I'm really, like, intrigued by that.

   4. BWBen Williams13:16

      Mm-hmm.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett13:16

      That thought, uh, the... Where did the desire come from to be considered an alpha male, whether in your own mind or to external, to other people?

   6. BWBen Williams13:25

      So, I think it, part of it is the fitting in, is why can't you fit in? Um, around that time, you know, Lock, Stock was quite old, but Snatch and certain other films were out, which is, uh, they were quite, they're almost in the limelight. It seemed like that way of life seemed to be normal. Uh, not normal, but what you should aspire to be, like a-

   7. SBSteven Bartlett13:46

      Aspirational male.

   8. BWBen Williams13:46

      ... yeah, aspirational, like gangster.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett13:48

      Mm-hmm.

   10. BWBen Williams13:49

       Um, and I watched a bit too much of that. You know, I read Lenny McClean's book and Roy Shaw's book and thought, "Oh, you gotta be hard to fit in in this world." But I take it at, take it at that moment where it was basically, Mum said, "No, you're not joining the Marines till you're 18, or at least do your A levels." When we did sort of begin to have every fortnight weekend with Dad again, the Marines', um, museum is somewhere where he used to take us. We also went to the Parachute Regiment and, uh, to the Imperial War Museum here. He used to just take us round these military museums for some reason. I remember being a young sort of nine-year-old in, in utter awe as well, looking at these pictures of these really incredible people, I thought, because this was what inspired me. I thought, "I wanna be a Marine." And, and, you know, as back as sort of nine years old, 10 years old. And then when it's kind of many years later when you suddenly almost pluck up the courage to be like, "Let's do this," it's a no.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett14:47

       Hmm.

   12. BWBen Williams14:48

       It turns you quite bitter and quite angry. "And why not? This is what I've always wanted to do." And it, and it does feel like that. If someone suddenly puts a blocker in the way of what you've always wanted to do...

   13. SBSteven Bartlett14:57

       Your sense of purpose.

   14. BWBen Williams14:59

       Yeah, that can, that can make you, um, think in rather negative ways. And I, that for me was when it was, "Well, what else can I do?" This, is it, is al, is it this alpha male thing, you know? That's, is that what a Marine is, is... What's the closest to that then, and where can I fit in? And that's kind of what led me to the path of I'll go where everyone seems to respect, you know. I'm not gonna sneak into the nightclubs like we used to do by putting our socks over our trainers at 17 to get in. I'm gonna work on it. And those kids that have always taken the mick, those kids that have always thrown the odd thing at me are gonna respect me. And there I was, 18 years old on the door.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett15:40

       Two questions. The first is, what did your dad do professionally, and was your desire to be macho, a- a- in any way influenced by, um, wanting to also be accepted by him at all?

   16. BWBen Williams15:56

       I would wanna say yes. But I think I'll say no. I, I don't know where it came from.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett16:07

       Hmm.

   18. BWBen Williams16:07

       I don't know where it came from.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett16:09

       The, and I, and my second point was, there is a stigma in society that bouncers have power complexes.

   20. BWBen Williams16:16

       Mm-hmm.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett16:16

       And what you've described there sounds like a power complex. (laughs)

   22. BWBen Williams16:19

       Yeah. I, and it's this, this thinking that Mum was Dad, and there was no other male in the house apart from her boyfriend, who didn't really, really be Dad to us.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett16:29

       Hmm.

   24. BWBen Williams16:29

       So, do I need to be Dad? Do I need to be the alpha here? And the, the older I got and the more I was on the, on the door and the bigger I was getting, um, and I was working five nights a week, you know.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett16:43

       Hmm.

   26. BWBen Williams16:43

       This was my full-time job.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett16:45

       And you were getting feedback and validation from-

   28. BWBen Williams16:47

       Yeah.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett16:47

       ... women and-

   30. BWBen Williams16:48

       Yeah.
4. 18:55 – 28:24

   An incident that changed my life forever

   1. BWBen Williams18:55

      all the films, I've read all the books, I know how to do a- some sort of kick. I'll be fine." And she's like, "You don't know what you're getting yourself into." "Okay." So, she was right. Um, there was an incident which happened, uh, at one of the night clubs in Milton Keynes where it was around 3:00 AM and I was leaving the venue. I was literally- I was signing off at 3:00 and the rest of the team were signing off at 3:30. And I was literally about to hand my radio in, and there was just, like, this massive scream down the radio. And we had a door team, I think, of around 15. It was a big nightclub and it was still pretty packed for this time. And, uh, yeah, there was just this sort of scream down the radio, and then you heard, "Black. Black." And that was like... So you had code red, which was like, "It's kicked off." Code black is like, "We've lost control." And you just kept hearing, "Black. Black," down the, uh, down the mic. And I was with a friend of mine, uh, another- one of the doormen, and we were literally like, "What should we do?" And just chucked the radios and ran to where it was. And we ran down the fire exit, um... It's in the Xscape building. I don't know if you know the Xscape building in Milton Keynes. It's like- it's just like a maze. You go through one exit and you're- you're just in a maze of concrete tunnels. And we were running down the stairs, and then sort of round the corner, and as we were running towards coming in the back of this part of the nightclub, the doors just bomb burst open and everyone just fell through. It was like a dam of bouncers and people scrapping, and it was just carnage. There was just people fighting all over the place. You couldn't even work out what was going on. Um, and then I recognized this massive guy who, earlier that evening, had just been a pain.

   2. NANarrator20:42

      Mm-hmm.

   3. BWBen Williams20:42

      And he gave me a massive kiss on the lips and everything, and, like, ruffled my hair when I had some, um, and was really patronizing towards me, and- and just- he- he put me in my place.

   4. NANarrator20:52

      Mm-hmm.

   5. BWBen Williams20:52

      That's what he was doing. And they were fighting. And it was inevitable they were gonna kick off on this evening, and they did. And I just remember seeing, like, his arm dangling as they- as they were trying to force him to the ground. And there was about three of the other lads with him, big guys, and then there was brother, and then two other people fighting in this- this area of the team. And I just grabbed his arm, and he was just, like, flailing me around, and we- I was just slo- slapping into the wall and then back on, and then we all hit the floor. And there was this almost, like, crunch sound.

   6. NANarrator21:24

      Mm-hmm.

   7. BWBen Williams21:24

      But no one thought anything of it because he just- he went almost even stronger, and I just had this arm. I was lying there thinking, "Hmm, this is- he's really trying to get up here. This is gonna get out of control." And you could hear his brother screaming down the corridor, who's a big lad himself. Um, and we were probably on the floor probably about a minute trying to subdue him. You know, "Calm down, calm down." Um, and his face was facing back across me, and it was just staring at the wall. And then I noticed some sort of pooling underneath his head and, uh, it just didn't look right. The blood itself was not a nosebleed, it was purpley. And I just said- said to one of the lads, I was like, "I don't fucking think he's well." And everyone literally just- massive breath came off him and he was still lying there, didn't get up. And, um, one of the bouncers was a fireman and was like, "Right, roll him over," and then began trying to resuscitate him, but to no avail, and he passed away then and there on spot. Remember standing there watching it all unfold, suddenly going from this big alpha male, "We're here to fight," to, "What the fuck has just happened?" And then they closed the club and they nicked everyone, and then we were on manslaughter charge for about a year as they tried to determine what had happened. Um, he'd lost his life, you know. There was a man who'd come into a nightclub, whether it was a pain or not, had lost his life. And worse than that, uh, five kids had lost their dad through an act of violence, through actually no one's fault. He fell and the way everyone landed on him unfortunately broke a bone in his neck, which caused him to go away. And it was, um, it was put down as an accidental death. There was no malice in it. There's guys trying to defend themselves, and- and the court recognized that. And I'm glad of that as well because things like that don't always get recognized, and people will do- get in trouble for defending themselves. Um, but for me, it was a serious point in my life where I thought, "Wow, we're- we're not in deep here. We're fucking way past deep," um, which became quite a hard thing to deal with. And then you lose your job, and by that point, I was already using cocaine and steroids, and you're trying to keep up this addiction. And all of a sudden, it becomes an escape, and then you can't afford the steroids, you see yourself get skinnier, and it's, "Oh, what do I need to do? I just, I'll just do more- I'll just do more coke." But coke's so expensive. And smoking more and more weed. And I just became extremely lost, you know. I was, uh, I was cleaning school toilets at one point because I c- that was the only job I could get, was to be a cleaner. And for me, I felt like I was very much lying on rock bottom.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett24:26

      You lose your sense of purpose at that point, right? Like, you lose your sense of orientation. And this, I've, you know, in writing my book and in doing tons of studying over the last two years, I've really grown to understand the importance of especially men having a sense of purpose and orientation. And as I did some reading about why the life expectancy has dropped over the last two years in the UK and the US, I think I've mentioned this before, um, the data suggests that it's because of opioid addiction. And then you say, why are people getting more addicted to opioids? And the data suggests because men specifically are losing their sense of purpose. And I think Jordan Peterson's the one that says there's a purposelessness epidemic sweeping the world, which is why the life expectancy has started to decline. And it sounds exactly like that. When I, when I read that in your story, and as you said it then, sounds like one of the, the worst things that, that can happen to someone, a man or a woman, is they lose their sense of, as I say in my book, their sense of, like, chaos. Because that chaos and that having stuff to strive for and aim for seems to be our act- our stability. Um, how bad did it get for you at that time in terms of drug use and, and, um, your mindset?

   9. BWBen Williams25:34

      So I've written about it quite openly in my book. Um, I was using it on Tuesday mornings, you know, in my mum's spare bedroom.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett25:44

       Using?

   11. BWBen Williams25:45

       Coke.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett25:46

       Right.

   13. BWBen Williams25:47

       Um, and it got really bad. It got really bad to sort- daily use. Always that was it. That was all that, the focus of the day, would be like, get cleaning work done or, or if I wasn't doing that, I'd just be like, "Oh, I'll see my mate." I, I literally had two mates which I did it with, and I'd just wait for them to finish work, and then we'd go and pick up, and then we'd go and sit in my Corsa until midnight. Just sat there, just looking at stars, thinking it's a chill sesh, really just fucking wasting my time. Um, and it was on one of those very lonely days where I just sort of thought, "I don't even know who I am." And actually, I have a, a girlfriend at the time, who's now my wife. If you wanna meet a resilient woman (laughs) -

   14. SBSteven Bartlett26:33

       (laughs)

   15. BWBen Williams26:33

       ... my wife has put up with me for so many years. I've got a lovely family, and yet here I am sat with, like, half-pulled blinds, shit everywhere in my room, no purpose, don't know where I'm going in life, taking drugs. What do... Why? Like, I'm from a nice background. Why am I at this point? And how the hell has someone died under my watch? How's this even happened? And for me, that kind of was a moment of, "I want to give up." So I took the, I took the Corsa, which I shared with my brother, and I just went for a drive. And I had it in my head, this sort of ambition that I was just gonna go and drive off something or drive into something or go and do something stupid and, uh, try and escape what I thought was this internal pain. But it never happened. It never prevailed. I never did it. I actually ended up back at home after losing track of time, sat there, feeling sorry for myself. "Oh, you can't even do that. You can't even go and kill yourself. You can't even go hurt yourself. You're fucking useless." Um, which lo and behold is when I sort of flipped on YouTube, the old clunky version, and that advert appeared, and I thought, "I don't know if it's fate. I don't know if this is some sort of sign from above."

   16. SBSteven Bartlett28:05

       What advert was it?

   17. BWBen Williams28:06

       It was the advert for the Royal Marines.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett28:07

       The Marine?

   19. BWBen Williams28:08

       Yeah. And it just came up. It was an old advert, and it was just there. It just appeared as pop- one of the videos that I should watch. And it was a young lad, and I reckon he must have been about the age I was at the time, I r- sort of

5. 28:24 – 40:38

   My turning point - joining the Royal Marines

   1. BWBen Williams28:25

      19, 20, I think it was at the time. Still quite loose on my timings for that one. And he goes through, he's going through the endurance course, which is one of the commando tests, one of the four commando tests. And the endurance course is a two-mile bogs, tunnels, um, just (laughs) just, just a muddy hell.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett28:44

      Chaos. (laughs)

   3. BWBen Williams28:44

      That's the kind of way I'd phrase it, a muddy hell. Yeah. And then a four-mile run back to camp. And to get to that point, you have to have done the 32 weeks of training. And that's the first test. And I remember watching it, and, and he, he's running through Wood, Woodbury is on, where it is, Woodbury Common. He's running, it stops, and said, "Would you stop here?" And then it goes again. And he goes through the tunnel. "Would you stop here?" And then they have this obstacle in there called the Sheep Dip. And the Sheep Dip's about three meters long, and it's fully submerged. And you have no control. What happens is, um, someone will put you under. They'll force you through, and then someone else is the other side, and they have to pull you out. You can't swim. You just go through like a torpedo. And it's a bit dramatic, but this kid goes under the water, and he gets his trousers stuck on some jagged bit of metal, and he's, like, hanging out for breath. And then it's going, it freezes, "Would you stop here?"

   4. SBSteven Bartlett29:38

      (laughs)

   5. BWBen Williams29:38

      And then it freezes again, and it does it again. Does it, like, two or three times, and then it says, "If yes, don't even bother filling out the form." And then the next cut scene is him with his green beret at night on, uh, a speedboat, uh, Orc Offshore Raiding Craft, just going along. No music, just this weird sort of tone. It was like a "Mm." And then it goes, "99.99% need not apply." And that, for me, took me back to that young child in the Royal Marines Museum in Portsmouth, who was looking at the pictures of old guys with mustaches in the Falklands and the early Iraqs, people who would become something. And I thought, "What else have I got to lose? What else have I got to lose here than to just go and do it?" And that week was the turning point.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett30:32

      So you applied?

   7. BWBen Williams30:33

      Yeah.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett30:34

      It's, uh, I can tell how much that particular video influenced you and a- 'cause you can describe it (laughs) -

   9. BWBen Williams30:38

      Mm-hmm.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett30:39

       I mean, it must have been decades, right, since you saw that?

   11. BWBen Williams30:41

       Yeah.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett30:41

       And you can describe it in such graphic detail.

   13. BWBen Williams30:43

       I still watch it now.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett30:44

       Oh, really?

   15. BWBen Williams30:44

       I still watch it now, only because it just, it reminds me of that sort of transition in my life. That courage. You know, I always thought that I had a lot of courage. I think a lot of men do. They... What is courage to us? What- what is courage? And it was something that I thought I could establish or find on the door, or in, like, a violent world and, and be that alpha male. Where actually courage, now I look back over my years, I look back and think courage was the ability to go downstairs, you know, after sitting there for hours, "Shall I, shall I not? Shall I? Shall I not?" And going, "Mum, you know you said no? Thinking of doing it." And she went, "Thank fuck for that." (laughs)

   16. SBSteven Bartlett31:31

       (laughs)

   17. BWBen Williams31:31

       'Cause I'd done my A levels and I think she'd grown tired of me.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett31:34

       Yeah, yeah.

   19. BWBen Williams31:34

       And I was like, "What?" And it was like this just acknowledgment, like, "Yes, please go and do that, because we can see what's happening here and you're ruining your life and you're only just about realizing it." And I was, like, last to the party in realizing I was the one ruining my life. And the other hard part was, you know, my girlfriend who I'd been with some- for some time, who'd been through all of this up to this point, "I'm now leaving her to go on this journey and become a Royal Marine." And I think that was, for me, the hardest part, to build that courage up and say, "Can I go and do this?" And she was like, "Yeah, I support you with whatever you wanna go and do." And that was it. It was literally, and I describe it in my book, like, a couple of days later, I literally just threw... I had a pack of Coke in the house and just threw it in- in the, um, in the toilet and flushed it. And it didn't flush. (laughs)

   20. SBSteven Bartlett32:23

       (laughs)

   21. BWBen Williams32:23

       I was like, "Oh, fuck." (laughs)

   22. SBSteven Bartlett32:24

       (laughs)

   23. BWBen Williams32:24

       That wasn't as dramatic because I thought I'd have to speak-

   24. SBSteven Bartlett32:27

       Go over, sniff it.

   25. BWBen Williams32:27

       Yeah.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett32:27

       (laughs)

   27. BWBen Williams32:27

       It's like, "Ah, cut." Um, yeah, and I was like, "Oh, shit, when am I gonna put that?" (laughs)

   28. SBSteven Bartlett32:33

       (laughs)

   29. BWBen Williams32:33

       Uh, admittedly, I kept smoking weed for a little bit.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett32:35

       Mm-hmm.
6. 40:38 – 50:14

   How to find that purpose

   1. SBSteven Bartlett40:38

      You know, we're having this conversation today, but, uh, something happened, uh, i- in my life yesterday, in fact, so this is, I think, why I'm really dwelling on this point of, like, how you go from the YouTube video to putting on that pretty ugly gear that you found-

   2. BWBen Williams40:50

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett40:50

      ... and then going for the run is... I've got a very good friend of mine, who I know won't mind me saying this, because we talk about it openly, um, who is going through tough times at the moment. He sounds very, very similar to the guy that you described, who was having those negative thoughts and was looking for purpose in life. And I'm almost searching for the advice to give him. I think that's why I'm asking you the question. 'Cause he is that guy that's sat in his c- car, looking up at the sky, wondering, "What's the point in living?" What is it that takes you from that place to putting the shorts on and saying, "Do you know what? I'm gonna do something for me for once. I'm gonna help myself. No one else is gonna get me out of this situation but me." That bit there feels like the hardest mountain to climb.

   4. BWBen Williams41:29

      Hmm.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett41:30

      Uh, I guess for you, it was that sense of purpose and prestige, and that was... Uh, uh, you know, this had been your childhood dream, or like... Uh, there's also this quote I sometimes ponder on, which is, "Change happens when the pain of staying the same becomes greater than the pain of making a change."

   6. BWBen Williams41:43

      Mm-hmm.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett41:44

      Like, when life becomes... Sucks so much that it would eas-... It would be... It would suck less to go and be beasted. (laughs)

   8. BWBen Williams41:51

      Yeah.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett41:51

      (laughs)

   10. BWBen Williams41:51

       Yeah. You've got to want something. That's what I... Looking back, uh, having learned everything along the way, it was the desire to want something. What is it that I want? Um, and it wasn't the validation of being a tough guy at all. It was to be part of my dream. You know, when you think back to that nine-year-old, he'd almost made his mind up on the spot there that he's gonna join the Marines, and that kind of got taken away, and then I took it away from myself anyway. Um, and I think almost the further away it gets, it becomes less tangible. So, when the incident at the nightclub happens, and you find yourself becoming wrapped around the wrong axle completely-... think it's getting further away. I'm losing control. I haven't got it. I'm losing that thing I want." To that, that, finally that day of something that reminds you to go, "Remember what you want." To go, "Fuck it, I'm gonna go and do it." And do you know what I found? I know a lot of people like this. I still have a few of them in my f- close friendship group. Um, and I've worked with a lot of people like this as well, where it's actually the courage to go and do it. Somewhere in your friend's head, he'll be thinking something that I wanna... And he may look at you-

   11. SBSteven Bartlett43:10

       Mm-hmm.

   12. BWBen Williams43:10

       ... and go, "Yeah, but you're successful. It's easy for you to say it."

   13. SBSteven Bartlett43:13

       Mm-hmm.

   14. BWBen Williams43:14

       "Look how well you're living the dream. Fuck you, you can't give me advice."

   15. SBSteven Bartlett43:17

       Mm-hmm.

   16. BWBen Williams43:17

       And you're like, "Oh, dude, come on. Switch on." In there somewhere is something he wants. In there somewhere is a desire. In there is a child who had an ambition for doing something. And the older we get, what I found with my experience, it, it feels like it gets slightly further away and that gap gets bigger. And all of a sudden you gotta take a bigger step or a bigger leap. But if you have that ability to go, "No, I do have the courage with it," that, that gap closes.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett43:45

       Mm-hmm.

   18. BWBen Williams43:46

       And it takes steps, it takes baby steps. And people think it's overnight, you know. You may have found this. "Oh, you're an overnight success." No, it's, like, 10 years worth of hard work.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett43:54

       Mm-hmm.

   20. BWBen Williams43:54

       Lionel Messi says it took 15 years to become an overnight success.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett43:58

       Mm-hmm.

   22. BWBen Williams43:59

       That's because deep down in the shadows, those people which are fighting every day, the addiction, the difficulty, the desire to go out and to piss with our friends in the normal world, to do the drugs, to eat unhealthy food, whatever it is, is, is that fight right there to go yes or no. Should I follow the easy option or should I follow the hard option? And sometimes the hard option isn't the challenge. Sometimes the hard option's the courage you have to build within yourself to take the steps. You know that.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett44:26

       Mm-hmm.

   24. BWBen Williams44:27

       Um...

   25. SBSteven Bartlett44:28

       Is there anything that I could have said to you when you were in that point in your life, when you were doing the drugs and having suicidal ideation? If I was your friend, is there anything that I could have said to you that would have helped you get out of it? Because as friends and family members, we're always trying to change, you know, help, right? And I, I sometimes doubt the power of a mate turning to you and being like, "Pull your shit together," you know?

   26. BWBen Williams44:52

       It, it strangely happened to me. So, uh, I won't mention his name 'cause he's doing sneaky-beaky things these days. But there's a close friend of mine-

   27. SBSteven Bartlett45:01

       Sorry, what's sneaky-beaky? (laughs)

   28. BWBen Williams45:02

       You know, appearing from curtains, working for special forces-

   29. SBSteven Bartlett45:05

       Okay, fine. (laughs)

   30. BWBen Williams45:06

       ... and doing, doing things like that.
7. 50:14 – 1:01:10

   What the commando mindset?

   1. SBSteven Bartlett50:14

      Are there principles to it? What's the philosophy? You know, and you talk about it being something that we can all sort of reflect on in our own lives, and we can all have that commando mindset, I guess, in the home or in work. What are the, what is the commando mindset? And...

   2. BWBen Williams50:28

      Well, we have an ethos. That was the sort of thing that first jumped out at me when I got there. And we have values, and the values is pretty much what makes us. Um, courage, determination, excellence, self-discipline, integrity, cheerfulness, and humility. And, um, these words, they're very human words, aren't they? They're very, you could put that in almost any walk of life, and I think people can acknowledge it and go, "Oh, courage, yeah, I'm a... Uh, excellence, I have a bit of that." Integrity is the biggest one. We say integrity in the Marines is your virginity, you can only lose it once.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett51:01

      (laughs)

   4. BWBen Williams51:02

      And so when you have that way of thinking-

   5. SBSteven Bartlett51:04

      Mm-hmm.

   6. BWBen Williams51:04

      ... and you have that ethos amongst your peer group and your leadership group, um, you know most of the time what's coming out of people's mouths is true. And that, whether that's moral courage to say, "We're the same rank, and you've got to stop swearing at us, and you've got to take your hands out your pocket, and you, you know, let's set an example for people who are below us," um, to even, you know, being able to say that to a, a senior commander, like, "Oh, should we have our hands in our pockets right now, sir?" But it's this ethos within us that enables a particular way of thinking. And it's when you're in the most extreme circumstances, when bullets are coming at you... I remember my first ever combat engagement. I was, we were in a quite a large patrol of 12. And we had been on the, we'd flown into an area in the green zone and told, "The Taliban are here, you're just gonna have to go and find them," which is like finding a needle in a haystack sometimes. And we were on the ground for about four hours, and, um, we always take an interpreter with us, and they have a radio that intercepts Taliban frequencies so they can actually hear what the Taliban are saying. And, uh, it was the first time I think I heard the Taliban as well. You hear these voices. And it's quite squiggly over the net, you can't really hear it properly, but you just think, "That's our foes, that's... Oh shit, they can see us as well." (laughs)

   7. SBSteven Bartlett52:25

      (laughs)

   8. BWBen Williams52:25

      Where are they?" And they said, uh, "We can see them, we can see them, they're heading towards the melon now, they're heading towards..." And melons was their code word for, um, IED, improvised explosive device, a homemade bomb.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett52:36

      So the Taliban are saying across the radio that they can see you?

   10. BWBen Williams52:39

       They're talking to one another saying they can see us, and that we're heading towards the bomb they've planted. And you start thinking, "Well, maybe they're trying to egg us on, maybe it's not real." And we went into this farmer's compound and we stayed in there for about half an hour to gain our breath and have some water, and then they came back on. They said, "They've gone in," person, they said his name as well, "They've gone in his compound, we'll pay him a visit later, we'll get him on the way out." So you're looking at the poor farmer thinking you're getting a knock on the door later you don't need, um, but also we're in the safety of this small compound that we're gonna step out back into the open soon, and they're gonna, they're gonna see us. And we stepped out in the open, and straight away, "We can see them again, we can see them again." And you, again, you kind of, are they trying to pull our bluff? 'Cause they know we can hear them, they know, they know we listen to them. Um, and you kind of take it sometimes with a pinch of salt, but you have to take it seriously. But then we had assets in the sky, which was a drone saying that it can see fighting males coming towards us all carrying weapons, and they're moving down this street. And that was like, "Okay, this is actually real." And we hadn't been hit by this point in the tour, and this was about to get very, very real. And your whole everything changes, you know? The adrenaline's quite, the adrenaline's high but it's controlled. You, you've got control, and you think, "I know how to deal with this. Stay focused." And we came up to a ditch which there was, it was almost like a T-junction ditch where one met another, and then to cross it, it was probably about four foot deep, and then you had to pull one another out of it, and you get onto a track and then there was a wall, and the track sort of went left and right from us. Uh, and about three of us got out the ditch, got onto the track, and then just a hail of bullets came flying down the track, and they all spat off the wall and off the floor and off the trees around us. And what you're taught to do when you're shot at, you're taught to do something called RTR, which is return fire, whether that's from the hip, shoulder, whatever, just spray in a direction, take cover, return accurate fire, RTR.I (laughs) nose-dived into the ditch.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett54:51

       Don't blame you. (laughs)

   12. BWBen Williams54:51

       Yeah. Like, quickly as well. And just completely flopped into the water. My kit's probably weighing about 100 pounds, so I've just gone straight to the bottom of the ditch, and I'm bel- beneath the surface, and you can hear the thumps overhead like (imitates thumping) . Split second, you're underwater. Split second. But it's long enough to go, "Ah, that wasn't the right thing to do." Uh, I've just done everything against what I do in training and what I've been taught to do.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett55:17

       You panicked, right?

   14. BWBen Williams55:18

       Yeah. Massively. Like, "Oh, shit! Someone's shooting at us! What do we do?" "Jump in the ditch." That seems to be, like, the cleverest thing to do. And jumped in the ditch, and I remember this thought coming through my head, going, "Oh, you fucked up big time there. Get out of the ditch." And I, in that second, came up out of the water, and noticed everyone had done the same thing. So I was like, "Right, might've dodged that one." Um, and the way we were looking was down the track, so everyone's sort of looking across each other, down- down the ditch and down the track. And there was one person still on- on the track, returning fire on his own. Stood up. Literally, you couldn't make it up. It w- it looked like that sort of Call of Duty image where he's just firing away on the track. And it was our commander, Vicey. Um, and he just looked over at all of us in the ditch and went, "Check your fucking flashes!" And that is this internal system which just goes like that (snaps fingers) . Because your flashes are what you wear on your shoulder, and it says the words "Royal Marines Commando." And everything those three words mean is related to the ethos, related to our values, re- related to those 32 weeks' training, related to every person that's died for those flashes, and we're all hiding. And he doesn't need to say, "Get out of the ditch! Come on, on the track!" Or anything like that. He just screams, "Check your fucking flashes." And that's your reminder to go, "Oh, I need to switch on and be a Marine here," as opposed to hide cowardly in the ditch. And then we got out, and you get into the fight. And that's what the mindset... The mindset isn't necessarily just down to skill and ability. It's that ability to tap into what you're programmed to do, what your DNA is, what your value system is. Have courage, have excellence, have determination. All these things that were just words up to that point have true meaning for you to get into the fight. Whether you lose your life in that moment or not, you're there to do a job. And that's what it looks like.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett57:13

       And those values, as you described them, go back through that list again. Courage. One of them was joyfuln- (laughs) not joyful.

   16. BWBen Williams57:19

       Cheerfulness.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett57:20

       Cheerfulness.

   18. BWBen Williams57:20

       Cheerfulness in the face of adversity.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett57:22

       Why is that so important?

   20. BWBen Williams57:23

       That is-

   21. SBSteven Bartlett57:24

       That's the one that struck me the most. I was like, "That's- sounds like smiling."

   22. BWBen Williams57:27

       If you, uh... If you don't laugh at it, it'll laugh at you. And I- I can't... I've lost count the amount of times where I've been soaked in mud, I'm absolutely hanging out, and, you know, a Domino's Pizza and being at home won't go amiss. And you look over to the right, and all you can see through this- these muddy faces is teeth, someone else looking back at you, and you just go... (giggles)

   23. SBSteven Bartlett57:49

       (laughs)

   24. BWBen Williams57:49

       And you giggle, and you're like, "Oh, this is shit, isn't it? Yeah. (laughs) Let's get on with it." Because, if you don't laugh at situations that get tough, it is gonna laugh at you. And the moment it starts to laugh at you, you're gonna begin to suffer. Now, it's not in the case of when people lose lives, you're stood over there going, "Ah, having a giggle." But it is those moments of extreme warfare where rounds are pinging off the wall in front of you, and you look at one another and go, "Fucking hell, that was close, wasn't it?" And you have the ability to laugh at situations maybe other people wouldn't laugh at. Cheerfulness in the face of adversity is- is what we all need. I've been saying it to people all last year and this year, you know, "This is shit, what we're going through." But if you don't smile in some way or another and find that sort of courage to have a bit of morale within yourself, it's gonna laugh at you. That's where your mental health starts to take a knock. That's where you tar- start to have that sort of negative downward spiral. And that was something I never had before the Marines, the ability to laugh at difficulty. And the Marines encourages it out of you.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett58:50

       What were the other words again? So, cheerfulness, courage.

   26. BWBen Williams58:55

       Determination.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett58:56

       Determination.

   28. BWBen Williams58:57

       Excellence.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett58:58

       Talk to me about excellence, why that's so important. 'Cause I know the Mo- from the... I've... I gotta be honest. I- I feel like I've watched every documentary ever on, like, the SAS and the Marines-

   30. BWBen Williams59:07

       (laughs) .
8. 1:01:10 – 1:10:53

   Why “its taking part that counts” doesn’t work

   1. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:10

      How would you... (sighs) In our culture at the moment, there's a narrative emerging which is like, "Oh, at least you did your best." You know, at least, there's a kind of a fluffy, soft, so- you hate it, I can see it in your face.

   2. BWBen Williams1:01:20

      Yeah.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:20

      There's this kind of, like, fluffy, soft, it's okay that you're not that good. At least, you know, take a rest. Uh, well, you know, good is, uh, good is, good is fine. Which is kind of infiltrating our culture in a very PC, almost, in my opinion, toxic way. If I post this on Instagram, as I've said before, I'll get, like, canceled because people... That sense of, like, doing less than your best and being negative seems to be comforting for people in a way that keeps their self-esteem and ego smothered with cotton wool so that they don't have to take personal responsibility. I can see you're very pissed off. G- g- go ahead. (laughs)

   4. BWBen Williams1:01:56

      (laughs) Yeah, this podcast is over.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:57

      (laughs)

   6. BWBen Williams1:01:58

      Um, my lad took part in... So I have a boy, Zach, he's seven, and I have Layla who's three, going on 18. And, uh, he won a race in sports day, and I was like the marine dad on the edge.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:14

      (laughs)

   8. BWBen Williams1:02:14

      You know, like, "Go on, Zach! Come on! You got this!"

   9. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:17

      (laughs)

   10. BWBen Williams1:02:17

       And he's flying down, and he's miles ahead of everyone else. I was like, "Yes!" And he crosses the line, I went, "Yeah!"

   11. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:24

       (laughs)

   12. BWBen Williams1:02:25

       And he comes running over and he's got this massive grin on his face, and he's got a big sticker, winner. And there's another sticker next to it, participator. And, uh, I looked and instantly in my head I twigged and I thought-

   13. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:38

       Rip it off.

   14. BWBen Williams1:02:38

       (growls) Rip it off. Okay, good. Oh, they're handing out them ones, are they?

   15. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:42

       (laughs)

   16. BWBen Williams1:02:42

       And, um, he went, "I won! I won!" And he was over, over the moon. We were like, um, um, my wife and I were like, "Well done, mate, that's amazing!" And, uh, he went, "Why didn't anyone else get a sticker?" And he was pissed off.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:55

       (laughs)

   18. BWBen Williams1:02:55

       And I was like... And I could h- I could almost hear the parents around me. I could hear their ears turn towards me, like, "Oh, how's this parent gonna approach this one?"

   19. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:04

       Mm-hmm.

   20. BWBen Williams1:03:05

       And I, I did think in my head, I was like, "Shall I go down there? Well, it's good that everyone had a go and everyone took part." And then this kind of... The stoic commander went, "Fuck that."

   21. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:14

       (laughs)

   22. BWBen Williams1:03:15

       I went, "Listen here." (laughs)

   23. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:17

       (laughs)

   24. BWBen Williams1:03:17

       "No one else should have got another badge, right? You're the one who earned that. That's the reason you've got that winner's badge. Don't worry about that participation medal. What I want you to al- always strive, just do your best every time, and you can win the race like you did today. Don't worry about everyone else." And he was like, "Yeah, but why do..." And it kind of, the conversation went off-

   25. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:35

       Mm-hmm.

   26. BWBen Williams1:03:35

       ... in child language.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:36

       Sure.

   28. BWBen Williams1:03:36

       Um, "But why do they get a sticker, though, Dad?" And like, kinda looking around again at the parents.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:41

       Mm-hmm.

   30. BWBen Williams1:03:43

       I don't know. (laughs)
9. 1:10:53 – 1:26:35

   The thing that ended my time in the Military

   1. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:53

      The Taliban talking about they planted their melons.

   2. BWBen Williams1:10:55

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:55

      I heard that it was in fact one of those melons, one of those IEDs that took you out of the military.

   4. BWBen Williams1:11:01

      Yeah, it was the catalyst for the sort of end of my career. Um, yeah, we, uh, we were deployed on an operation around three or four weeks before the end of this particular tour in 2011. Um, and yeah, it was called the Hornet's Nest. It was just an area-

   5. SBSteven Bartlett1:11:22

      Heard that before.

   6. BWBen Williams1:11:23

      Yeah, it's not, it's not nice when your commanders say, "You're heading into the hornet's nest." And when they follow that up with, "We're gonna go and hit the nest." (laughs)

   7. SBSteven Bartlett1:11:32

      Christ.

   8. BWBen Williams1:11:32

      "Okay, all right."

   9. SBSteven Bartlett1:11:33

      "Good luck. I'll see you-"

   10. BWBen Williams1:11:34

       Okay.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett1:11:34

       "... later, I'll see-"

   12. BWBen Williams1:11:35

       I'll do my postcards now.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett1:11:36

       (laughs)

   14. BWBen Williams1:11:36

       Um, but it, it, the idea was to go in and disrupt the Taliban, an area they thought they were untouchable within. And we knew it was gonna be heavily contested. And they had the civilians on hand there. They, they had it all. Um, and it was really deep in the green zone as well, which I think this is sort of end of August, beginning of September, so the crops are at seven, eight foot. Um, the tree lines are sort of every 100 meters and the trees are very high. It's just a really difficult place to operate in. It's like a jungle in a desert. And, um, we landed on, the Americans gave us a lifting in the morning, dropped onto target, and within about four or five hours we'd had, um, five guys taken out the game already by a grenade which came into the compound and just detonated at their feet.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:23

       Taken out of the game?

   16. BWBen Williams1:12:24

       Yeah, so injured and put back on stretchers and put straight back on the helicopters. Um, we then took attack, well, we started to receive an attack from three different angles. Um, so they were firing at us from the, uh, let me get my bearings right, northwest and south.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:42

       Mm-hmm.

   18. BWBen Williams1:12:43

       Um, and they were firing at us from two different angles from a distance to distract us from an attack which was coming in from this third angle, which was to sneak up to the gate and try and get into the compound. So, we were sort of really trying to fend off. And, and this came sort of every half an hour it would just pick up and then it'd drop off. And we were scrapping all day. It got to the point that if you weren't on the roof fighting, you were trying to get your head down to get some sleep.... and then ready yourself to go up. And things would explode, and you'd wait. Wait for a scream or wait for something, and then the firing would start again. Oh, everyone's all right. Just carry on. It was just the most surreal situation. Um, and we ended up fighting with the enemy pretty much all day that day, and then we needed to push a patrol out in the morning. And that morning, that morning just had this weird feeling about it, you know? The day before, five guys had been blown up by a grenade and, you know, covered in frag. Um, we'd had some injured civilians come in. It was just, just quite a chaotic day. The Taliban had got right up close to the gates and we'd managed to push them back and kill a few, and it just kinda le- leaves you with the feeling the next day thinking, "Oh, we've got another six days of this. Seven-day operation, another six days of this." Um, you know, that first day we're there, it got that bad that mortar fire was getting called in over us, landing literally 50 meters in front of the compound to stop them advancing on our position, and that's frightening. That's, you know ... You're close to that sort of hand-to-hand combat. And, um, the next day I remember waking up thinking, "Oh, I didn't have a great night's sleep." (laughs)

Episode duration: 1:59:28