Vanessa Van Edwards: The Conversation Habit That Makes Smart People Unlikeable

1. 0:00 – 2:11

   Intro

   1. VEVanessa Van Edwards0:00

      How do you know you talk too much? So first thing is non-verbal cues. Someone is checking out if they are opening their mouth as if to say something. I call it the open fish, and that's a subtle cue that you talk too much.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett0:10

      Do you think they're listening right now and think, "Fuck, that's me"?

   3. VEVanessa Van Edwards0:13

      Yes.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett0:13

      And there was a recent study where they found that 95% of people have worked with someone who talks too much.

   5. VEVanessa Van Edwards0:18

      Well, I have a Do You Talk Too Much test.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett0:20

      So there's five questions here, and if you answer more than three times, you're probably an over-talker.

   7. VEVanessa Van Edwards0:25

      Yeah.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett0:25

      'Cause my next question is, like, which one's worse, over-talking or under-talking?

   9. VEVanessa Van Edwards0:28

      Well, I have spent the last 20 years studying master conversationalists and I found that it's the vehicle to get what you want. And I'm a recovering awkward person, and I really struggled with bad conversation for a long time. But I think the next generations will be talking to technology more than they talk to humans. And because we are having less conversations, one in six people worldwide are affected by loneliness. And I, now more than ever, am sending nine-minute voice notes to my friends. But a voice note, it's the most selfish form of conversation. But in this age of technological change, the people who are masterful at conversation are going to have an advantage. But there's a blueprint to good conversation. And once you know the blueprint, it becomes easier. For example, we devised three different speed networking experiments with 500 speed networkers. And the best conversation starter was actually, "What was the highlight of your day?" Because the moment we asked, "How are you?" or, "What do you do?" They ran out of things to talk about. But the worst question in the history of conversations is [censored] . But I also have a formula to immediately bypass that small talk. Also, a secret door into charisma. But also there are five archetypes, and this is gonna impact getting a promotion and finding your soulmate.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett1:30

       And we're gonna go through all of them. But what are the ways to get out of a bad conversation without offending people?

   11. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:35

       Well, we tend to focus a lot on the first impression, but we don't really think about the end, but it's all really important. And I discovered this framework. So...

   12. SBSteven Bartlett1:43

       Here is a strange fact. Most of the people watching this right now, about 58% of you, aren't yet subscribed to this channel. Statistically, that is probably you. So could I ask you a small favor? If this channel has ever given you any value at all, please could you do me a favor and hit the subscribe button? It costs nothing. It helps us more than you could know, and the bigger the channel gets, as you've seen, the more we can invest in the guests and the production. So thank you so much, and I hope you enjoy this episode. [upbeat music]

2. 2:11 – 3:20

   How to Connect With Anyone

   1. SBSteven Bartlett2:11

      Vanessa Van Edwards. On page five of your new book, Conversations, you talk about how we're in a connection crisis, and you say that conversations are getting harder, more awkward, and less satisfying.

   2. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:24

      Hmm.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett2:25

      At some level, I feel that, too. My question to you is, why did you choose to write this book based on, you know, everything you could have written about. Everything we've talked about before.

   4. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:34

      Yeah.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett2:34

      Why is this book needed at this time?

   6. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:36

      People who are investing in conversation skills right now are creating career insurance. We like to work with people who are great at conversation. We like to be with people who are great at conversation. We like to date people who are good at conversation. And in this age of tremendous technological change, the people who are masterful at conversation are going to have an advantage. So I wrote this right now because we are slowly losing our ability to connect, and I think this is the last generation that will learn about conversation via human. I think the next generations will be talking to technology more than they talk to humans.

3. 3:20 – 6:41

   Why Great Conversation Is a Superpower

   1. SBSteven Bartlett3:20

      Is it possible to be great at conversation? And if I become great at conversation through what we're about to talk about today, what is the advantage that you're speaking about there? What advantage will I experience in my life? For everybody listening now, what advantage will they see in their life relative to where they are now?

   2. VEVanessa Van Edwards3:34

      Conversation is the vehicle to get what you want. Right? If you want a promotion and you can chat with your boss where they connect with you, you're more likely to be thought of for that promotion. If you wanna meet your soulmate, you have to have deep, connected, meaningful conversation to truly get to know each other. If you are lonely, finding friends that are actually fulfilling and give you the joy of conversation is going to give you a longevity boost. I think that the mistake that we have made is we think of conversation as extra. You know, we sort of put it second. I know leaders focus on this a lot, where they're focused so much on their idea, on their technology, on their business, but they forget about the human element. And I think we have to start thinking about conversation almost like going to the gym. You know, we've, we've focused a lot on our physical health, but our social health is critical to our emotional health, right? If we are doing conversation reps, if we can truly become good at conversation, and conversation I think is a skill to learn. I don't think it, you're born with it or you're not. I think you can learn to be good at conversation, and it's the one skill that keeps on giving.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett4:36

      Do people tend to know if they're good or bad at conversation?

   4. VEVanessa Van Edwards4:39

      Hmm.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett4:39

      Like, are there symptoms one experiences when they, when they're not good at conversation? Are they aware of that?

   6. VEVanessa Van Edwards4:45

      Yes. There is symptoms of being a bad conversationalist. And by the way, I should back up. As you know, I'm a recovering awkward person [laughs] . And I really struggled with bad conversation for a long time. And I realized it was 'cause I was asking the wrong questions, and I was approaching conversation the wrong way. And the wrong way to approach conversation is trying to impress, not discover. If you're trying to impress people, conversation becomes performative, and that is so deeply unfulfilling, right? That is when small talk becomes soul-crushing.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett5:16

      Mm-hmm.

   8. VEVanessa Van Edwards5:17

      I have spent the last 20 years studying master conversationalists. Master conversationalists, they live differently in the world, and I only know this 'cause I wasn't one for a long time [laughs] . They are not only more joyous, but they're also more confident. They're more authentically assertive. They get more energy from interactions, whether they're an introvert or extrovert, because their conversations are giving them energy, not taking energy. The symptom of bad conversation, and I, I hate to give someone a label of being a bad conversationalist. An exhausted conversationalist is you dread it. Dread is a really important emotion. If you open your calendar and you see o- only dread or you feel only dread, there's something wrong, right? Conversation, like, boosts us, gives us energy. So you feel dread in social interactions. Um, you feel overwhelmed when you're in conversation. So if you're in conversation and you're social overthinking, you cannot turn your brain off, all you're worried about is what you're gonna say next. It's actually just 'cause you probably haven't learned the mechanics of conversation. Blue- there's a blueprint to good conversation. We're gonna talk about it. Once you know the blueprint, it becomes easier. And the last symptom of bad conversation is that you leave feeling misunderstood. You leave feeling like, "I was the worst version of myself," or, "I wasn't able to be my best self." I think really good conversationalists, people leave conversation with them thinking, "Wow, I f- after talking to you, I feel like I understand myself better." And that's a very different way of thinking about, oh, I wanna impress somebody.

4. 6:41 – 17:59

   The 3 Questions That Build Instant Connection

   1. SBSteven Bartlett6:41

      So how long have you spent doing the research that feeds into what we're gonna talk about today and feeds into this new book?

   2. VEVanessa Van Edwards6:47

      Okay. So accidentally, I've been doing research for this my whole life because I was very bad at conversation for 20 years. Then 20 years ago, I realized that there are these hidden blueprints behind our interactions. I wasn't quite sure what they were, but I could see that very good conversationalists, they were following some kind of plan. Then eight years ago, this is when the real research began, and it started with an experiment. I call it my speed networking experiment. This fundamentally changed the way I think about conversation. So here's what we did. I knew there was some secret that conversationalists had, and I was like, "I'm gonna find it." [laughs] So we devised three different speed networking experiments with 500 speed networkers. We brought them in these rooms, and we had cameras set up in all four corners of the room because good conversation looks different. Really good conversation. You've seen, you... Do you ever like, you know-

   3. SBSteven Bartlett7:32

      Of course. [laughs]

   4. VEVanessa Van Edwards7:34

      A lot of people. [laughs]

   5. SBSteven Bartlett7:34

      At a restaurant with my fiance.

   6. VEVanessa Van Edwards7:35

      With people who are like, "Are they having a bad date?"

   7. SBSteven Bartlett7:37

      Yeah. [laughs]

   8. VEVanessa Van Edwards7:38

      Um, so you know, y- a good conversation is a lot of gestures, a lot of leaning. It, you know, has that high energy. You see a lot of vocal charisma. The volume goes up. In a bad conversation, it sort of sounds like this. "Um, hmm, how are we gonna, huh, hmm, those were," right? [laughs] Like it has, like very low energy, like apologetic facial expressions, like low volume. Then I assigned these networkers six conversation starters. Now I picked these conversation starters, I'm gonna tell you what they are, very carefully. Three of them I thought could do really well, and three of them I wasn't sure about. I wanted to see. We gave them these six conversation starters, and we asked them after each timed conversation to rate the quality of it, one being, "That was the worst, most awkward conversation I've ever had," to five being, "That was the best conversation I ever had. I wanna marry this person," or, "I wanna connect with them on LinkedIn." Then we took all these ratings, and we ranked them, and there were clear winners and clear losers. The losers, the conversations that produced the worst connection, the most awkwardness, were last choice. Wanna guess what last choice was? Last.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett8:40

      In terms of an opener?

   10. VEVanessa Van Edwards8:41

       In, in terms of just a question. It, it... You, a, a typical question you ask a person is-

   11. SBSteven Bartlett8:45

       How are you?

   12. VEVanessa Van Edwards8:46

       Number five. That was the fifth worst. Very close to the bottom. Sixth was?

   13. SBSteven Bartlett8:51

       Something about the weather.

   14. VEVanessa Van Edwards8:52

       That, what do you do.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett8:53

       What do you do? That was the worst?

   16. VEVanessa Van Edwards8:54

       The worst.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett8:55

       Okay.

   18. VEVanessa Van Edwards8:56

       Why? So these last two, how are you and what do you do, they're very socially scripted, right? The moment we ask those questions, our brain goes into autopilot, so, uh, there's a lack, there's... It, it's more of a performance. There's a lack of, like excitement in the conversation, and they ran out of things to talk about.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett9:11

       Mm-hmm.

   20. VEVanessa Van Edwards9:11

       They're fact-based questions. And this is the trap of what we'll call level one conversation, which is you are trapped in fact. Where are you from? Got any kids? Married? The facts are dead ends, right? So they're, they're... It's very hard for someone to break out of that fact because they're stuck in that social, that social script. The best conversation starter was actually a sneaker. I was like, "Ooh, interesting, that this one did best by a lot." It was, "What was the highlight of your day?" Now, what this question does psychologically, it sounds casual. Well, first of all, it's not too deep. A mistake that extroverts can make is they ask too deep two quest- too quickly, right? They, they're like, "What is your greatest goal in life?" And you're like, "I don't know you." Right? So it's not too deep, but it's a subtle replacement for how are you. You're actually asking the other person's brain to search for optimism. You're literally inviting their brain to think, like what was good, and then they think, "Well, highlight of my day." So one, we just broke autopilot. The mos- the moment someone goes, "Oh," and they're thinking for the first time, their brain goes, "Ooh, we get to t- we get to do something new." So they got to think of something new, and it was immediate.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett10:17

       Yeah.

   22. VEVanessa Van Edwards10:17

       Like it wasn't like a, a too big of a question. The second question was, "Have anything exciting you're working on?" This is kind of a subtle replacement for what do you do, right? If someone likes what they do, they're gonna talk about it, but they're gonna reframe it in something exciting. And if some- someone isn't defined by what they do, they're going to share something better. The third question, very, very simple, was, "Do you have any fun plans coming up?" These questions, the thr- first three, are literally searching for good. You're inviting the other person to only think about good things, and we're juicing excitement for other parts of their life. Now the fourth question, the middle one, almost broke my data, and this is where things really got interesting for me as a researcher. This fourth question, people either loved it or they hated it. They either gave it a five, that was like the most connective thing I felt all week, or a zero, and a zero wasn't even an option on my scale. It was the question, "What's your story?" Now, what's your story, have you ever been asked that question, by the way?

   23. SBSteven Bartlett11:20

       Derivatives of that question.

   24. VEVanessa Van Edwards11:22

       Okay.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett11:22

       Yeah.

   26. VEVanessa Van Edwards11:23

       So extroverts tend to default to that question because they wanna go a little bit deeper. But actually, that is a level three question. It is way too advanced. For someone who's introverted or someone who has never like framed their story that quickly, they're immediately put into cortisol. They're immediately put into fight or flight. They're like, "W- what's my story?" Like, "How, how can I give that to you so quickly?"

   27. SBSteven Bartlett11:44

       Mm-hmm.

   28. VEVanessa Van Edwards11:44

       So you're, by accident, putting them into conversational fear. This is when I realized there's a hierarchy. We have to move through our conversations with different levels, right? This is why we have this.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett11:57

       So for anyone that can't see, 'cause you're listening on Apple Music or Spotify, whatever-

   30. VEVanessa Van Edwards12:00

       Okay
5. 17:59 – 23:45

   The Fastest Way to Build a Real Connection

   1. VEVanessa Van Edwards17:59

      So they also become your callbacks. They make conversation easier later.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett18:04

      Everybody's starting from a remarkably different place here, aren't they? In, in terms of both skill-

   3. VEVanessa Van Edwards18:09

      Mm

   4. SBSteven Bartlett18:09

      ... but also, like, will.

   5. VEVanessa Van Edwards18:11

      Mm. [laughs]

   6. SBSteven Bartlett18:12

      Do you know what I mean?

   7. VEVanessa Van Edwards18:12

      And energy.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett18:13

      Yeah.

   9. VEVanessa Van Edwards18:13

      And, like, willing to do it.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett18:14

       And energy.

   11. VEVanessa Van Edwards18:14

       Uh-huh.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett18:14

       Like, I think there'll be a lot of, uh, one might say introverts listening right now-

   13. VEVanessa Van Edwards18:18

       Yeah

   14. SBSteven Bartlett18:18

       ... that just think, "What's the fucking point?" Like-

   15. VEVanessa Van Edwards18:19

       Yeah

   16. SBSteven Bartlett18:20

       ... you know, I don't like people anyway, and it's so much-

   17. VEVanessa Van Edwards18:22

       Yeah

   18. SBSteven Bartlett18:22

       ... energy, and I've gotta ask these questions and pretend to be interested. This is gonna drain me.

   19. VEVanessa Van Edwards18:26

       Oh, my gosh. I, I agree and two things can be true. It's very exhausting in the sense of you're trying, right? Like we're putting energy into conversation, but it's also exhausting to have really shallow small talk.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett18:40

       Mm-hmm.

   21. VEVanessa Van Edwards18:40

       I find it exhausting to stand at an event or be schmoozing with people backstage and be talking about nothing. Do you wanna have very boring, predictable conversation where you're less memorable and they're less memorable and you're just waiting till you can get home to Netflix? That's one hard. That's not what I would choose. Or do we choose the hard of I'm gonna break a script, right? I'm gonna try to do level one better. I'm gonna try to, you know, trigger a little bit of dopamine. I'm gonna try to learn something that I ha- didn't know before, which is going to maybe, just maybe bring joy. If you get a really great answer... By the way, there's two sides of conversation: talking and asking.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett19:16

       I, I think even for those introverts, they have really, really big goals in their life that they care about.

   23. VEVanessa Van Edwards19:22

       Yeah.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett19:22

       And so I think connecting this level one stuff-

   25. VEVanessa Van Edwards19:25

       Yeah

   26. SBSteven Bartlett19:25

       ... to those high, to their highest goals is like critical for the behavior to occur and for it to like net out in the incentive equation as being worthwhile.

   27. VEVanessa Van Edwards19:34

       Yes.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett19:34

       'Cause if you can tell me how asking, "Have any fl- fun plans coming up"-

   29. VEVanessa Van Edwards19:38

       Yeah

   30. SBSteven Bartlett19:38

       ... is gonna help me become a better CEO or founder-
6. 23:45 – 32:41

   How to Get to Know Someone Fast

   1. VEVanessa Van Edwards23:45

      going through a hard time or they're having a bad day, you have an opportunity to connect even better. So sometimes it doesn't have to be positive. You're looking for any kind of real emotion. So then someone says, "You know what? I've been really going through a hard time, and, you know, I don't, haven't had much energy to work on personal passion these days." And then you have the choice. You can say, "Wow, is there anything I can do to help?" Or you can say, "Do you wanna talk about it?" So it's not always positive. It's looking for authentic emotions and ideally story. And this is another, uh, one of the other master conversationalists I study who's excellent at level one is Jerry Seinfeld. So Jerry Seinfeld has a little conversational trick, and I... This is in level one of the book, which is he often meets people after his event, and they're so starstruck by him they don't know what to say, and conversation is really awkward. He has a little awkward small talk. He's developed a trick, and this works really well for CEOs and introverts, which is ask a numbers-based question. So instead of how are you? You know, where do you live? So how long have you two been together? And then if it's 38 years, you say, "Oh, what's been the highlight of your 38 years?" If it's really short, "Oh, you're in the honeymoon phase, what's the best part?" So it's a numbers question, and this works really well for introverts as well is because it's fact-based, so it- it's like an opener, and then usually from there it's a jumping off point to a story. So it's not that level one should always be positive. That's great if it can be. But practically speaking, it actually more is that there's a small p- a small emotion or a small story.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett25:14

      Okay, so the other day I was in Las Vegas, and I was doing this sort of like step and repeat meet and greet thing with-

   3. VEVanessa Van Edwards25:19

      Mm-hmm, yeah

   4. SBSteven Bartlett25:19

      ... after the event. And people come up and th- they're kind of ushering them through very quickly.

   5. VEVanessa Van Edwards25:24

      Sure.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett25:24

      So I always wanna st- you know, say something to learn a little bit about a person in that time.

   7. VEVanessa Van Edwards25:29

      Yeah.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett25:29

      What would you recommend?

   9. VEVanessa Van Edwards25:30

      Yes.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett25:30

       And this might be applicable for networking generally-

   11. VEVanessa Van Edwards25:32

       No, but this is relevant

   12. SBSteven Bartlett25:32

       ... but what would you recommend?

   13. VEVanessa Van Edwards25:33

       Okay, so I always whenever after speaking about bookending, I say, "What was your favorite part? Or what did you learn the most?" So I immediately ask a question that I want them to take home with them. And that's actually level two, which we can, we can skip a-

   14. SBSteven Bartlett25:43

       Sure

   15. VEVanessa Van Edwards25:43

       ... we're not gonna skip too far ahead. But what have you always wanted to learn or what are you learning is actually going to level two. So you can ask it, especially if someone's just spent an hour listening to you.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett25:52

       Wait, what's the difference between level one and level two?

   17. VEVanessa Van Edwards25:54

       Okay. Oh, sorry. Yes, we skipped ahead. Okay, so this, w- we'll put a pin in this. One other thing I wanna say about that question is, um, I h- I read this framework. I read about Dan McAdam's framework, and I was doing this conversation research. And then I got, got invited to a party. One of the weirdest parties I've ever been invited to. And I get in, and they tell me to take off my shoes, so I'm committed, right? I can't leave. Yeah. And then they go, "Guess what? We have a rule for this party." I'm like, "What?" They're like, "You cannot talk about what you do." Now, this was a party of, I think, very other successful people, and all of us are like, "What?" 'Cause I don't know about you, but I'm, I'm pretty defined by, [laughs] by what I do. I talk about it. I love it. So I start to panic, 'cause I'm like, "What do you even talk about if you don't talk about that?" 'Cause so many of our conversations veer into work. And so I had to, one, my brain was flipped off autopilot immediately, and I had to get more creative with my questions. And I had to also think that I want... I was like, "I'm just gonna discover things outside them. I'm gonna try to figure out what they do by not asking." And that was an aha moment of we should treat level one, these, these three bottom questions, as a treasure hunt. That if you're going into it looking for some kind of conversational gold, your questions have much different intention. And especially, what I ended up asking was, "What do you talk about when you don't talk about work?" Which was sort of this freedom. It gave us this freedom in conversation, where I wanna give everyone permission that really good conversation does not have to stick to the same old boring topics. It does not have to be what you do. It can be about anything that is e- engaging you or exciting you in that moment. That is level one. Level two. So we had general traits. We must start there. We cannot skip too quickly to level two. Level two is called personal concerns. Personal concerns is where we begin to connect deeply. This is our motivations, our goals, our values, our worries.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett27:54

       And I'm assuming you do level two once you've got past level one connection.

   19. VEVanessa Van Edwards27:58

       Exactly.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett27:58

       So this is us going deeper-

   21. VEVanessa Van Edwards27:59

       We're going deeper

   22. SBSteven Bartlett28:00

       ... with the person. Mm-hmm.

   23. VEVanessa Van Edwards28:00

       Exactly. Or, or leveling up, as you wish, right? As you wish. So the mistake, traps that people make is they skip level one, they try to go too deep pretty quickly, and people feel like it's invasive, right? Especially when you're like, "Whoa, slow down," or it can feel like an interrogation. So we must know those basics first, as long as we do them better. Like, we don't do them in an autopilot way. Level two is when you g- start to understand what motivates someone. The kind of mental trick that I use is you know you're on level two with someone if you know what gets them up in the morning. Like, what goal is driving them all day. But you also know what keeps them up at night.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett28:31

       Mm-hmm.

   25. VEVanessa Van Edwards28:31

       What worries them. I, you know, I, I encourage people as they're reading, like, think of the five people you interact with most and place them on a level. Like, do you only know the basic facts about them? Are you all the way at level three, which we're gonna get to? It's sometimes helpful, you'll notice patterns. Like, I don't know about you, but I love level two. [laughs] Like, I wanna get through level one as quickly as possible. I, I wanna get to your motivations. I wanna get to your secret side hustle. I wanna get to your dreams and passions. I wanna know what keeps you up at night. But I can sometimes jump too fast.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett29:00

       Mm-hmm.

   27. VEVanessa Van Edwards29:00

       Level two is about making someone feel heard and understood. And this is different than discovering treasure. And the biggest skill that we can do in level two is what I call dream building. So dream building is everyone has, like, a secret desire, a secret dream, a secret side hustle, a secret passion. Can you be there and help them uncover it? That's the goal of level two.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett29:25

       So give me an example of dream building.

   29. VEVanessa Van Edwards29:27

       Okay, so j- before we started-

   30. SBSteven Bartlett29:29

       Yeah
7. 32:41 – 35:32

   Why Genuine Curiosity Makes You More Charismatic

   1. VEVanessa Van Edwards32:41

      Especially also sometimes, um, introverts in conversation. And I, I've asked these questions to thousands of people, and all different kinds of things happen when I do that. Introverts also need more time to process. So you might ask them, you know, "What are you learning right now?" Or, "What's your biggest goal?" And they might in the moment not know. They just need a little bit of time to process. And so w- two things can happen, is if they don't have it yet, that's okay. You also have opportunity to share.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett33:06

      But what if I, you know, I ask... I'm thinking because, you know, I know a lot of, uh, taxi drivers listen to this podcast 'cause I get in taxis-

   3. VEVanessa Van Edwards33:11

      Oh, yay

   4. SBSteven Bartlett33:11

      ... and we talk about it.

   5. VEVanessa Van Edwards33:12

      I love it.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett33:13

      And taxi drivers, you know, they're conversationalists.

   7. VEVanessa Van Edwards33:16

      They are.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett33:16

      Often very good ones. Um, but sometimes I guess a taxi driver might be faced with the scenario where the person in the backseat doesn't wanna talk. And they might hit them with one of these, you know, level ones and then the level twos and, and they're just getting brick walls.

   9. VEVanessa Van Edwards33:28

      Then I would respect that, right? If someone doesn't wanna talk to you-

   10. SBSteven Bartlett33:31

       Do you just back out?

   11. VEVanessa Van Edwards33:32

       Yeah.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett33:33

       Okay.

   13. VEVanessa Van Edwards33:33

       Because then they're going through their own thing, right? Like, if, if... You have to have also courage to be disliked.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett33:41

       Mm.

   15. VEVanessa Van Edwards33:42

       Right? Like, you can try your best in conversation. You can bring the best questions, but if someone is not your person or they are not ready to connect, why would you waste your energy on that? So I also think that asking some of these are, like, bids. It's like a bid to see, like, can we, can we do this? You wanna banter with me? Should we have level one? Should we even dip into level two? Great. If not, cool, they're not your person or it's not their day.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett34:03

       So if they don't take the bait...

   17. VEVanessa Van Edwards34:05

       It's okay.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett34:06

       Okay.

   19. VEVanessa Van Edwards34:06

       I, the taxi drivers usually ask me, um, "Got anything exciting today?"

   20. SBSteven Bartlett34:10

       Hmm.

   21. VEVanessa Van Edwards34:10

       "Are we going anywhere exciting?" Great. That's a great swap for level one. I should say, by the way, these questions are suggestions. If you can modify them to the, to fit what you are doing, even better. Like, for example, you and I are in book signings or we, we are meeting people after speaking events. It makes sense for us to modify the learning or goal question to say, "Hey, you know, what did you learn?" Or, "Did you learn anything new?" Or, "What was your favorite part?" Right? We're modifying that for us. A taxi driver's gonna modify it for, "Are we heading anywhere exciting?"

   22. SBSteven Bartlett34:39

       [laughs]

   23. VEVanessa Van Edwards34:39

       "Do anything exciting today?" So, like, these are not prescriptions, right? They are guidelines to try to make the research applicable. You know, I've spent most of my career looking at research, reading academic studies, and some of them are 30 pages of jargon with one nugget. And Dan McAdam's research is so incredible, but when I first read it, I did not know how to use it. I was like, general traits, personal concerns, like, level one, two. I wasn't sure. So a lot of these are just ways to activate the behavioral research, the guideline that's driving all of our interactions, but you get to have flexibility with it as it works for you. The goal in level one, treasure hunt, put someone at ease, ask them about what they love, harvest story. The goal of level two is to give someone permission to share a dream, a secret desire, or a secret worry. And level three we get to get to in a little bit when you're ready. Oh, we have one more level t- level three. Hold on. Level two question.

8. 35:32 – 40:40

   The Questions That Secretly Kill Conversations

   1. SBSteven Bartlett35:32

      On these questions-

   2. VEVanessa Van Edwards35:33

      Yes

   3. SBSteven Bartlett35:33

      ... do you have to actually care about the answer? Do you have to authentically care about what their biggest goal is right now or what their personal passion project is? Does it matter if you don't actually care?

   4. VEVanessa Van Edwards35:45

      There have been times in conversation where I'm not sure if I care yet. So I would say you don't care yet. What if you ask the question and you're not sure, you're not bought in yet, but then you hear an answer that deeply resonates with you or you deeply care about? I think we don't know always if we're gonna care about someone 'cause we've just met them. But maybe you will, right? Like, you never know who's gonna be your next best friend, right? You never know when, when you're gonna hear an aha moment that's gonna change your business. Like, so many of the pivot points in my business have been from random conversations where I happen to ask the right question and someone gives me a brilliant piece of advice.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett36:21

      So is it okay to pretend to care?

   6. VEVanessa Van Edwards36:25

      If you're asking the question, you care enough to try, right? If you're listening to this podcast, you already care enough to be like, "I, I know I should."

   7. SBSteven Bartlett36:36

      Yeah.

   8. VEVanessa Van Edwards36:36

      "I know I should be a con- a master conversationalist." Like so many leaders who I work with, they might not feel warm, but they know they need to be warm. I think that's intent enough, right? We just gotta find the ones that work for you.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett36:48

      And you talked a second ago about these questions that lead to dead ends-

   10. VEVanessa Van Edwards36:51

       Mm

   11. SBSteven Bartlett36:51

       ... which are like what you do. What are the, the other examples you gave?

   12. VEVanessa Van Edwards36:55

       Okay, I have a, a question that I, I hate a lot. I hate it a lot. I want it to leave our vocabulary. It's the worst question in the history of conversation. It is, "Been busy?"

   13. SBSteven Bartlett37:06

       Okay. Yeah.

   14. VEVanessa Van Edwards37:07

       Right? Like-

   15. SBSteven Bartlett37:08

       Been busy? What do you do? When you're on the receiving end of those kinds of questions-

   16. VEVanessa Van Edwards37:12

       Ah, yes

   17. SBSteven Bartlett37:13

       ... what, what, how do I counter that? 'Cause I'm gonna get that everywhere I go-

   18. VEVanessa Van Edwards37:16

       Yes

   19. SBSteven Bartlett37:16

       ... forever, so-

   20. VEVanessa Van Edwards37:17

       Yes

   21. SBSteven Bartlett37:17

       ... how, how do I counter that?

   22. VEVanessa Van Edwards37:18

       Okay, so every time, first of all, boring questions make you boring. We know this. But boring questions asked of you are an opportunity. In fact, I think you can really surprise and delight someone by breaking the script on their boring question. You are going to be asked a lot of boring questions. Let's talk about two buckets here. The first bucket is when you're asked, "What do you do?" And you're gonna be asked it a lot, you better have a great answer. I think having a great answer to what do you do is creating opportunities for yourself. What most people make the mistake of with what do you do, and I have an entire chapter about it in the book, is when you're asked what do you do, they're looking for something, right? They're trying to understand who you are. Maybe they're even asking, what are you worth?

   23. SBSteven Bartlett38:00

       Mm-hmm.

   24. VEVanessa Van Edwards38:01

       Maybe. So now the ball's in your court to break the script and to surprise them. You wanna give an answer that explains exactly what you do, but then gives them a little bit of a hook.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett38:11

       As in like creates that curiosity gap.

   26. VEVanessa Van Edwards38:12

       A little bit of in, a little bit of information gap, a little bit of curiosity. And we don't want to overcomplicate or be vague. So I, for example, I was sitting in a coffee shop. I was researching this book, and I was eavesdropping on everyone's conversations, 'cause that's the best way. You know, you, if you listen to conversations in the wild, well, the things you hear are great. And I was on my computer, and I heard, um, she said, "So, what do you do?" I think they were on like a date. And he goes, "Oh, I'm, I'm, have a system u- I have a system for maximizing achievement in young learners." And she was like, "What?" [laughs] And he goes, "Yeah, I, I, you know, I work with fifth grade students and I have a system for how they can learn math and reading." And she goes, "Oh, you're a teacher." He goes, "Yeah, I'm a fifth grade teacher." And I was like, wow. The intention there was to be interesting, right? He didn't wanna say, "I'm just a fifth grade teacher." But he gave the brain too many calories, like conversation calories. The conver- the, the brain wants the simplest, easiest road possible. Like we wanna put people at ease. What doesn't put people at ease is having, acting like you're reading your resume.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett39:11

       Mm-hmm.

   28. VEVanessa Van Edwards39:12

       If your what answer to what do you do a- sounds like you're reading your resume, you are turning people off, right? It's either jargon-filled or it feels too formal or too complex.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett39:21

       So that answer that he gave was vague. It was, um-

   30. VEVanessa Van Edwards39:25

       Complex
9. 40:40 – 44:15

   What’s Worse: Talking Too Much or Too Little?

   1. SBSteven Bartlett40:40

      A lot of people listening now are more multi-hyphenated than ever before.

   2. VEVanessa Van Edwards40:43

      Love, love a multi-hyphen.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett40:44

      They do a this, a that, a violin, a creator, a LinkedIn thing-

   4. VEVanessa Van Edwards40:47

      Love it. Love it

   5. SBSteven Bartlett40:47

      ... a, a speech, a dance, an improv.

   6. VEVanessa Van Edwards40:49

      Yeah.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett40:49

      So how do those people answer when they're multi-hyphenated?

   8. VEVanessa Van Edwards40:51

      Oh, I love it. Okay, so two things. A multi-hyphen, we, we understand complexity as humans. We get it. So you can say, "You know, I daylight as a fifth grade teacher, but I moonlight as a cinematographer." Right? You can literally say your hyphen. If you're in a career pivot, we have a lot of students who come to us who are, are mid-pivot, we love a hero story, right? So you can say, "You know, I've been working in marketing for the last 20 years, but I'm thinking about going back to school for psychology," right? Like we think that people can't handle it, but conversation can handle a lot, and it doesn't take a long time. Now, I do wanna make a note here, the mechanics of conversation. So there's two aspects of conversation. There's the art, right? Like weaving in excitement and harvesting story, and I love that. But there's also the mechanics. So let's talk about that first. So, uh, the Candor Corpus is a huge research study on the mechanics of conversation. So how long do you think a typical turn should take in conversation? Like how long should our turns take?

   9. SBSteven Bartlett41:50

      15 seconds.

   10. VEVanessa Van Edwards41:51

       Wonderful. 15 to 30 seconds.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett41:52

       Okay.

   12. VEVanessa Van Edwards41:53

       So in, um, average conversation, we like 15 to 30 seconds. 45 seconds is okay, but we start to turn to a monologue.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett42:00

       By this you mean how long we speak for each?

   14. VEVanessa Van Edwards42:03

       Each, yes.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett42:03

       Before I let you speak.

   16. VEVanessa Van Edwards42:04

       Yes.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett42:04

       Okay.

   18. VEVanessa Van Edwards42:04

       Before we start to feel like, "Whoa, I'm talking too much. It's not my turn."

   19. SBSteven Bartlett42:07

       Okay.

   20. VEVanessa Van Edwards42:07

       So 15 to 30, and by the way, if you wanna go listen to previous Zoom conversations, it can be helpful to know if you're an over talker or an under talker, right? Under 15 seconds, you might be actually creating conversational scarcity, like not asking, like not asking enough, not talking to- talking enough.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett42:20

       Which one's worse, do you find?

   22. VEVanessa Van Edwards42:24

       Well, I'm an over talker, so I'm gonna say under talking [laughs] 'cause I'm an over talker, so I'm gonna say it's worse.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett42:28

       [laughs]

   24. VEVanessa Van Edwards42:29

       I'm gonna say it's worse to be an under... But by the way, can I take a hit at podcasts for just a second?

   25. SBSteven Bartlett42:33

       Sure.

   26. VEVanessa Van Edwards42:34

       So the other reason I wrote this book is I think the art of conversation is being systematically stripped away piece by piece, and it's well-intentioned. This is not a natural conversation, right? Like I'm in an interview. I would never normally take this long on turns if we were having dinner. You're reading notes. I'm ha- I have notes. But more and more of our conv- off time is listening to podcast conversations, but those are not real conversations. Those are interviews. So one is we are hearing conversations that are not real. They are a bit performative, right? And they're not following the mechanics of conversation. That is affecting our conversational muscle in our brain. Second is we're having more and more asynchronous conversations. I now more than ever am sending nine-minute voice notes to my friends.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett43:20

       Damn, wow.

   28. VEVanessa Van Edwards43:21

       [laughs] Right? They send them back to me. Well, what... A voice note is, is not a conversation. A voice note is a monologue. And when you're giving a voice note, I don't get the, "Oh, it's my turn. Me too. How dare you? I don't like that. I don't agree." Like, there's no back and forth. In fact, it's the most selfish form of conversation, and this is from someone who sends a lot of voice notes because I don't g- I don't need to hear your opinion. I get to go as long as I want, and I don't have to worry about whatever you're doing. And I'm usually multitasking, right? I'm listening to my best friend's voice note while I'm cleaning or cooking or exercising. So that has skewed it because we th- get into real conversation, and it feels hard because our m- muscle has been atrophying with this asynchronous. And then we are also co- conversing less. You know, only three in 10 Americans socialize on a day-to-day basis. Only three in 10 Americans socialize on a day-to-day basis,

10. 44:15 – 45:22

    How to Know If You Talk Too Much

    1. VEVanessa Van Edwards44:15

       meaning they're having more time alone, and they are conversing less, and that is because we're able to do so much work asynchronously. We also spend so much time on our, on our self-care, our longevity, our workouts that we are just doing less with other people. And one in six people worldwide are affected by loneliness, and I think that is because we are having less conversation, and if we're having it, it's happening asynchronously. Or, and this is the last, hardest point, is we are now talking to technology more than talking to each other, and I don't just mean through technology. Yes, we've been talking through technology for a long time. But only recently are we talking to technology. And when I talk to my technology, it sounds different than when I talk to you. Like, I was sitting next to my husband, and he was working, and he was, like, talking to his AI, and he was like, "Do better. Do... That's terrible work. Do better."

    2. SBSteven Bartlett45:06

       [laughs]

    3. VEVanessa Van Edwards45:07

       And then I asked him a question, he turned to me, and I was like, "You better not tell me to do better," [laughs] you know? And that is because I... You know, we're, we're talking technology in a way that we would never talk to other humans. But our brain doesn't always know the difference, and so I think this muscle is atrophying.

11. 45:22 – 48:34

    How to Spot a Conversational Narcissist

    1. SBSteven Bartlett45:22

       And on this point of, like, knowing whether you are a good conversationalist talker, um, there was a recent study of over 1,000 Americans, and they found that 95% of people have worked with someone who talks too much. These chatty coworkers spend an average of 90 minutes of their workday just talking, and 71% of respondents said talkative coworkers prevented them from getting their work done.

    2. VEVanessa Van Edwards45:43

       Yes.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett45:43

       How does one know if they are the person that talks too much?

    4. VEVanessa Van Edwards45:46

       First is let's do an intervention on this, is go back if you have recorded Zoom calls and just time yourself. There is a kind of appropriate, right, 15 to 45 seconds, 45 seconds at the most. Second, non-verbal cues. Someone is checking out if they are opening their mouth as if to say something. That is a subtle cue that someone wants a turn, but they are gonna wait. So if someone is opening their mouth, I call it the open fish. It means they want a turn. Like, you did it to me earlier, and I totally stopped.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett46:15

       Yeah, you did. Yeah.

    6. VEVanessa Van Edwards46:16

       Yeah, 'cause I was-

    7. SBSteven Bartlett46:17

       Yeah

    8. VEVanessa Van Edwards46:17

       ... I, I was like, "Oh, he wants to say something." [laughs]

    9. SBSteven Bartlett46:18

       Yeah. No, so I do, I actually do give people cues that I wanna say something sometimes, and some of them see them, and some of them just do not.

    10. VEVanessa Van Edwards46:25

        And I was, like, fully distraught. I was like, "What the-"

    11. SBSteven Bartlett46:27

        But you, you, you're on the more sensitive end of the scale where you're almost watching what I'm doing, and it's... And I, you know, having done, what, 700 of these interviews now, it's really fascinating to me that some people I have to, like, remain completely, utterly skil- still because they are surveilling me for cues that they're doing a good job or-

    12. VEVanessa Van Edwards46:42

        Yeah

    13. SBSteven Bartlett46:42

        ... they want the... And so if I move or, like, look away, I, they immediately change.

    14. VEVanessa Van Edwards46:46

        Yes.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett46:46

        Whereas other people don't even know I'm here.

    16. VEVanessa Van Edwards46:48

        Yes.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett46:48

        Which is actually what I prefer.

    18. VEVanessa Van Edwards46:50

        [gasps]

    19. SBSteven Bartlett46:50

        Because then I can, like, grace these notes and look in the books, and I can, like, go to the toilet and come back and-

    20. VEVanessa Van Edwards46:55

        And then [laughs]

    21. SBSteven Bartlett46:56

        ... you know.

    22. VEVanessa Van Edwards46:56

        I'm still talking. [laughs]

    23. SBSteven Bartlett46:56

        It's just easier. But-

    24. VEVanessa Van Edwards46:57

        And this is why this is not natural conversation.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett46:59

        But I think people like you are better at conversation because you see conversation not as a megaphone in which you're shouting through.

    26. VEVanessa Van Edwards47:05

        Yeah.

    27. SBSteven Bartlett47:05

        You see it as continual feedback.

    28. VEVanessa Van Edwards47:07

        Yeah.

    29. SBSteven Bartlett47:07

        And that's why I have to sometimes be on edge with people like you 'cause-

    30. VEVanessa Van Edwards47:09

        Yeah
12. 48:34 – 55:11

    Ads

    1. SBSteven Bartlett48:34

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    2. VEVanessa Van Edwards50:29

       Uh-

    3. SBSteven Bartlett50:29

       I was thinking about, um, someone that I might consider to be in the overtalking category.

    4. VEVanessa Van Edwards50:34

       Yeah.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett50:35

       And when they talk, I don't think they have any concept that there's anybody else in the room.

    6. VEVanessa Van Edwards50:40

       Yeah.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett50:40

       I think they, they might as well have their eyes completely closed. It-- that's kind of-- I was just thinking about it the other day-

    8. VEVanessa Van Edwards50:45

       Yes

    9. SBSteven Bartlett50:45

       ... when I was with this person, and they might as well be sat there like this, and they're just... And they're gonna finish when they feel like they've run out of things.

    10. VEVanessa Van Edwards50:52

        [laughs] Okay. This is-- There are two types of conversational people. There's entertainers and appreciators.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett50:58

        Mm-hmm.

    12. VEVanessa Van Edwards50:59

        One of the biggest questions I get is, "How do I talk to VIPs? How do I talk to my boss?" And this is exactly this, and I don't know if they're a VIP or not. It actually doesn't matter. They are an entertainer. The way I discovered this framework 'cause I was in the green room for a speaking event, and a very famous person came in. I can tell you who it was later. Very, very famous.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett51:18

        Who was it?

    14. VEVanessa Van Edwards51:19

        We're gonna cut this?

    15. SBSteven Bartlett51:20

        No, we'll keep it in.

    16. VEVanessa Van Edwards51:21

        [laughs] [beep]

    17. SBSteven Bartlett51:23

        [laughs] Okay.

    18. VEVanessa Van Edwards51:24

        'Cause he's ve- I think he's pretty famous.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett51:26

        Massively famous.

    20. VEVanessa Van Edwards51:26

        Okay. Okay. He comes in, and we have, like, a little bit of downtime before he has to go up, and I watched person after person try. You know what... You know when you watch someone try, and this is the same thing when someone's approaching their boss or a VIP, and they all tried the same way, either a compliment or a question. "Oh, I love, I love your stuff so much. I've been, you know, watching you since I was a kid. Oh my gosh, you changed my life." Right? Compliment or question. "Oh, what's, what's the best thing you've ever done?" I won't get too specific. You know, "What's, what was your... Do you have any advice for me as a young person?" Right? It was either compliment or question, and he was just not having it. "Hmm. Yeah. Well, yeah, nice to meet you." Right? Like, quick selfie, just not engage. And I was like, wow, that's what I would have advised back then. Either go with a compliment or a question. No. Then one person came up. It was actually one of the AV guys, so he was gonna mic him, and he said, "Can I tell you the funniest story?" And he was like... And you could literally see him was like, "Yeah." And this guy begins to tell him hilarious stories about the first time he watched one of his movies, hilarious stories about him and his siblings playing sports, and you know, he's laughing. The guy is laughing. And then he starts asking him questions. And I realized he wants to be entertained. He doesn't want to entertain him. So what I realized was there are certain people who wanna entertain. They speak longer, so they're, they're more at risk of talking too much. They want you to laugh at their jokes. They wanna share their stories. Their love language in conversation that, what gives them energy is other people giving them adoration or listen to their stories, listen to their ideas. They love giving advice. They're, they talk more in conversation. The other type of person, and I think this is you, and actually this is me even though it doesn't look that way on podcasts, we are appreciators. I talk all day long for my work. The last thing I do when I wanna go to dinner is talk. In fact, when people ask me deep questions, I sometimes am like, "Can we go back to level one, and can you just tell me everything?" Appreciators talk less. They love to laugh at other people's stories. They love to hear interesting, awe, weird, surprising, embarrassing things. They are much more hesitant to open up about themselves. Like, as long as we've been talking, we are not personally on level three, right? Like, we are able to hide that because we keep it back. It is critical when you're talking to bosses or VIPs to know which one you're talking to. Entertainers want questions, but appreciators want people to tell them stories, right? They don't want a lot of questions. So your friend is an entertainer, so you get to make the choice of are you gonna go into their superpower and let them just entertain you and keep going and keep talking as much as they want, or do you want the ball?

    21. SBSteven Bartlett54:04

        What if the thing they're saying is... 'Cause when you hear entertainer, I, I interpret that as you're coming up to someone and sharing something that is fun and interesting and whatever.

    22. VEVanessa Van Edwards54:16

        Oh, they're boring.

    23. SBSteven Bartlett54:16

        But there's some people that roll up, and they say-

    24. VEVanessa Van Edwards54:18

        They're boring

    25. SBSteven Bartlett54:19

        ... they talk about themselves, and that's what they wanna talk about. They wanna, you know, could be a self-esteem issue. They wanna convince you that they are whatever.

    26. VEVanessa Van Edwards54:27

        Conversational narcissist.

    27. SBSteven Bartlett54:29

        Okay. Is that a thing?

    28. VEVanessa Van Edwards54:30

        Yeah. So these are people in conversation, and this is when the levels still hold. In fact, sometimes the conversational narcissist will take themselves, they'll walk themselves right up all three levels. They'll, they'll answer for themselves in level one. They'll tell you all about their goals, and they'll tell you the most deepest things that you did not wanna know. And that's when you get, like, verbal vomit, right? Like someone just, like, they won't stop talking, and they're just telling you things that you didn't even wanna know. You have a choice. You can either try to teach them that that's not the way that they should be in conversation, and you can literally say, "Is it my turn yet? Do you wanna hear about mine? Do you wanna hear about my goal?" Right? Like, if this is the person you're gonna invest in and you care for and you like, you have to, you have to stand up for what you wanna share.

13. 55:11 – 1:08:50

    How to Know If You’re a Conversational Narcissist

    1. SBSteven Bartlett55:11

       In your experience, where does that conversational narcissism come from? Like, what's-

    2. VEVanessa Van Edwards55:16

       Insecurity.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett55:17

       Yeah.

    4. VEVanessa Van Edwards55:17

       Right? This person's insecure. I don't even know them. They are insecure. And also, I... my bet is they're trying to impress you. My, my bet is they're trying to find something to raise your eyebrows. But they don't realize that the more they talk, the more you're like [yawns] Can I go home?

    5. SBSteven Bartlett55:30

       Do you think they know that they're a conversational narcissist? Do you think they're listening right now and think, "Fuck, that's me." Or do they not have that level of ... 'Cause, 'cause the person that I was, I was referring to, they know they talk too much, 'cause they say it, and they've had the feedback multiple ... And they literally will say, "I talk too much," but then they can't seem to stop because it's so deeply ingrained-

    6. VEVanessa Van Edwards55:49

       Mm-hmm

    7. SBSteven Bartlett55:49

       ... in them from their childhood.

    8. VEVanessa Van Edwards55:50

       Mm-hmm.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett55:51

       So I'm wondering if they, you know, they're listening now and they go, "Okay, that's me." 'Cause my next question is, like, how do they fix it?

    10. VEVanessa Van Edwards55:57

        Curiosity.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett55:58

        Okay.

    12. VEVanessa Van Edwards55:58

        That's an easier question. I actually don't think there's a hard and fast rule. Some conversational narcissists are aware of it and hate themselves for it.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett56:04

        Mm-hmm.

    14. VEVanessa Van Edwards56:04

        Like, they literally know they're doing it, and they're so ... They're like, "Why? W- stop talking." Like, they literally know it's happening, and they're like, "Why? Why am I doing this?" But they can't stop, 'cause they're so scared of the awkward silence. And by the way, we, we asked, you know, couple thousand people, "What is your greatest conversational fear?" I thought it was gonna be rejection or judgment. No, it was awkward silences or not knowing what to say. Very mechanical. And I thought, "Wow, 4,000 people, their biggest conversational fear is not being rejected." That was one of the options on the multiple choice. It's running out of things to say. So the reason they're talking too much is 'cause they are terrified of that moment where they're sitting with Steven Bartlett and there's a silence, and then you're like, "Bye."

    15. SBSteven Bartlett56:50

        I like the silence. I mean, as a podcast, you have to come to terms with the fact that the guest might stop talking at any moment, and you might not have anything else to say.

    16. VEVanessa Van Edwards56:57

        [laughs] That's why I don't have a podcast.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett56:58

        So [laughs]

    18. VEVanessa Van Edwards56:58

        That's why I don't have a podcast. So and then the way, the way that they fix it is curiosity, right? I, I do believe in, like, assertive curiosity. Like, not just the follow-up, like, "Tell me more," but, like, the what, the how, the why, the when. I think that those, like, h- what, how, why, when, that assertive curiosity of, like, "Let's actually dig into this dream. Like, let's really talk about it."

    19. SBSteven Bartlett57:19

        Wait, I'm confused. So if we had a conversational narcissist here-

    20. VEVanessa Van Edwards57:23

        Yeah

    21. SBSteven Bartlett57:23

        ... are you telling me how they would recover from that?

    22. VEVanessa Van Edwards57:27

        They would recover from it by being aggressively or assertively curious about you.

    23. SBSteven Bartlett57:31

        Okay. But they know, they know ... I feel like they know that. I feel like they know they talk too much.

    24. VEVanessa Van Edwards57:36

        Okay, then I'm gonna say something, you're not gonna like it. Maybe you're not giving them enough to be curious about. What I would ask next time is, "Are you curious about me or do you not feel the curiosity?" Because saying, "Do you wanna know my answer," or, "Is it my turn yet," is a way of being like, is there curiosity there?

    25. SBSteven Bartlett57:54

        Mm.

    26. VEVanessa Van Edwards57:55

        I think that that's really important. Like, I think in relational patterns, like, there are relate- conversational patterns that we can have. So we're talking a lot about new-ish people, but how about the people you've known for a long time? My ch- my goal, my, my deepest wish for this, this podcast is that you will go have a conversational, a cornerstone conversation with someone and ask all nine questions. Now, if you're in a conversational rut, and this can happen in friendships, it can happen with people who o- are used to being the overtalker in the relationship, it can happen in marriages or marriages where you only talk about logistics. This is going to break the rut, because the whole point of this is turn-taking. So I would be just so curious if you go to dinner with this person and you're like, "Hey, my friend Vanessa came on the pod and, uh, she gave us nine questions. Do you wanna do them together? I'll go first." Could she do it? It's a she, right?

    27. SBSteven Bartlett58:49

        He.

    28. VEVanessa Van Edwards58:49

        He.

    29. SBSteven Bartlett58:50

        [laughs]

    30. VEVanessa Van Edwards58:50

        Could he do it, right? [laughs] Could he do it? And so n- that, this is how you can break that rut to see if there's actual curiosity there, because I have ... I, I always assume the best in people. I'm hoping this person is very well-intentioned, just has deep insecurity.
14. 1:08:50 – 1:13:47

    The Real Reason First Dates Go Wrong

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:50

       So at this stage, I would turn to somebody when I f- when I feel like I've got that depth with them and I'd say, "What do you love to talk about?" And they might say, "Do you know what? I really love talking about sports." And then are you saying that opens a door and gives me a clue-

    2. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:09:03

       Mm

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:04

       ... as to how to connect with them, so I, future conversations with them should orientate towards sports or psychology or whatever their answer was?

    4. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:09:10

       No. It would be, you can ask, "What do you love to talk about?" It would be you, Steven, love to talk about behavior, so you are going to ask more behavioral questions of them. So you get to create your sixth question.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:21

       Oh.

    6. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:09:22

       Right? So like right now, because I'm talking about conversation-

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:25

       Okay

    8. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:09:25

       ... my signature question is, "What's your favorite conversation starter?"

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:29

       Okay.

    10. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:09:29

        Right? When I was researching Cues, it was, "Who's the most charismatic person you know?"

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:34

        Mm-hmm.

    12. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:09:34

        When I was researching Captivate, it was, "What's your favorite body language cue?"

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:38

        Mm.

    14. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:09:38

        Right? Or, "Do you ever think about body language?" So it can change based on your interest, but you're creating it for yourself.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:43

        Okay, so this one's a bespoke one. You get to-

    16. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:09:45

        Yes

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:45

        ... write this one yourself.

    18. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:09:46

        Yes.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:46

        Okay.

    20. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:09:46

        Exactly. Exactly.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:48

        Got you. So I'm interested in psychology, so this one would be psychology related topics for me.

    22. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:09:52

        Right, or like what drives you-

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:53

        Behavioral. Yeah, yeah.

    24. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:09:54

        I actually think that some of the level three questions might interest you, but I'm curious.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:58

        Okay.

    26. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:09:58

        Let's see. All right, level three. Are you ready?

    27. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:00

        Wait, before we do level three-

    28. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:10:00

        Yes

    29. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:01

        ... just wanna close off on this, uh, do you talk too much test.

    30. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:10:04

        Okay. So I have a do you talk too much test in the book. It's right here. So you're gonna ask yourself, "I leave a conversation realizing I don't know much about the other person."
15. 1:13:47 – 1:18:03

    Can You Go Too Deep Too Quickly?

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:47

       But you know, your number is reserved for people in your like personal professional life. So what you're saying as if you roll up on the street is you're saying, "Let me in to your personal and professional environment, stranger." Whereas the public environment, which is Instagram-

    2. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:14:01

       Yeah

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:02

       ... is I think a much more socially appropriate place to invite oneself into.

    4. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:14:06

       Okay. Let's fight about this.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:07

       Okay.

    6. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:14:08

       If you do that, your conversation is going to be more awkward on your first date

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:11

       Because?

    8. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:14:12

       Because you feel like you've already learned about the person. So maybe you're discovering more of their public persona, but you've seen their kind of friends, where they hang out, what they do on the weekends. Do they hike or not? Do they have any pets? Oh look, there they are at Thanksgiving. They have lots of siblings. This is, I think, why we're having awkward first date conversations, why first dates have gotten even worse, is because you're on the first date, you've already discovered all level one stuff that you think you know. So now, even though you have your very first conversation, you, you h- kind of have to go to level two. It's so much harder and it's unnatural. It's unnatural to know all this information that wasn't transmitted human to human, that was done in a performative way, and then you have to get in person and it's harder to come up with conversation starters 'cause you already know a lot. I also think what I would say is, if someone were to... I'm not single. I haven't been single in a long time. But if someone were to say, "Can I have your Instagram?" I would say, "You know, I, I have one for just friends and family, but maybe you can get there one day."

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:08

       You would say that?

    10. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:15:09

        Yeah, I would.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:10

        Rebecca L.

    12. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:15:11

        Because, because-

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:13

        I've never heard anyone-

    14. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:15:13

        ... because I want you to chat me, right? Like, I don't want to show you my Instagram. You're gonna see everything and like, I'd rather like, w- like let's banter. Like let's chat. Are you funny? Are you gonna ask me good questions? Are you gonna be a conversational narcissist? And then ask me out to dinner if it's going well over text or over, over the phone.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:29

        So you think less context results in better conversations? So just having their WhatsApp or their, uh, iMessage is gonna result in more interesting conversations than me knowing that you like hiking and puppies, and me being able to be like, "Have you got a Labradoodle too? Oh my God, my Labradoodle is just given birth to a couple of triplets."

    16. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:15:46

        Yes. And less performative context. Like our social feeds are not 100% real. So it's not like you were listening to me talk about something. It's a perfor- it's a curated highlight reel of my life. So you feel like you know me. Like people who follow me on Instagram, like they might feel like they know me, but my life is quite different than my Instagram in the sense of I show a very small piece of what I do. Same right, with you, right? And so I know I'm not single, but if I was single and someone asked for my, my Instagram, even as a not like public figure, I would have no casual level one banter with them that is critical, socially critical for me to understand their basics. And so when we skip level one, we do damage to our potential connection later. We create more awkwardness and more friction for ourselves.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:31

        Okay.

    18. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:16:32

        So my challenge for single people is stop asking for handles and ask for numbers. Are people gonna get mad at me?

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:40

        Well, a lot of them are meeting via dating apps now.

    20. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:16:42

        For sure, and that, I think that's okay, right? You know, a dating app is much more limited than a endless feed.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:47

        It's like, I don't know how many photos are on dating apps these days, but-

    22. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:16:49

        Yeah, like-

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:49

        ... there's still like, that's like the most performative. It's like, look at me at the gym. Look at this car that I bought. Look at this-

    24. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:16:53

        But it's not forever. Like you can't go back to someone's Instagram since they were in high school, right? Like it's, you know it's six images or 10 images. You have these pre-subscribed questions. Like I'm actually okay with that. I love dating apps. I think that actually they can really connect people very quickly. But you don't know everything about you, don't feel like you know everything about me.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:09

        I feel like people on dating apps hate dating apps.

    26. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:17:11

        Of course. Of course. But how else are we gonna meet people if we have our IP- our AirPods in all the time? You're not gonna meet people if you're at the gym. We talked about this last time. If you have your AirPods in at the gym and someone wants to hit on you, you're not gonna hear it. So we have to use dating apps. I think they're the only way that we'll be able to connect. So I'm, I'm actually, I'm pro-dating app. Of course, I would love for people to approach in person, but I'm not pro not talking first. And I think if someone asks for your handle, you're fair to say, "It's just for my friends and family. Let's try to get there."

    27. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:41

        Okay. I concede.

    28. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:17:42

        [laughs]

    29. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:44

        No, I think it, it makes sense. It does make sense.

    30. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:17:45

        Okay, we did it.
16. 1:18:03 – 1:22:50

    How to Rewrite the Story You Tell Yourself

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:18:03

       And are they right?

    2. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:18:05

       They are right.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:18:06

       Okay.

    4. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:18:07

       If we go too deep too quickly, especially at work, and I wrote this book with work in mind, people are gonna think you're weird, right?

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:18:14

       Yeah.

    6. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:18:14

       If we share too much too quickly, it's going to be weird. And there is such a thing as vulnerability regret. Vulnerability regret is you shared something too vulnerable and it wasn't a safe space or it wasn't received well, and the heartache that you get from that is soul crushing. Right? If you share something too, or you ask something too deep too quickly, you're like, "Why did I do that?" It's painful. Has that ever hap- do that happen to you or no, you don't share?

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:18:36

       Uh, no, I, I've walked away from situations and thought, "Actually, maybe that wasn't the appropriate situation to share that." But I've also been in situations, I, I immediately thought of a meeting I had two weeks ago where I was interviewing someone and the first 25 minutes of the interview they shared some really, really personal things-

    8. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:18:54

       Hmm

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:18:54

       ... about th- their very early childhood that I, um, I almost had to adjust myself-

    10. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:19:01

        Oof

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:01

        ... to, you know, I thought I was going into an interview-

    12. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:19:03

        Yeah

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:04

        ... to like meet them and ask them about work stuff.

    14. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:19:06

        Yeah.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:06

        But I, I almost felt myself pivoting away being like, "Oh my gosh, I have to be-

    16. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:19:09

        Yeah

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:09

        ... more of a-"

    18. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:19:09

        Yeah

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:10

        ... a counselor or something.

    20. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:19:11

        Yeah. And so I think that-

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:12

        Yeah

    22. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:19:12

        ... we actually have to gate level three, right? I think we actually have to gate. And, and it's been a little confusing culturally 'cause I think that we are loving vulnerability and that, that's really good. And vulnerability and authenticity, there's a very fine line there. Like being authentic is great, but being too vulnerable too quickly is very awkward and sometimes not safe. So I really share, when we talk about level three, I want you to reserve it for your most important people, okay? So level three is called your self narrative. Your self narrative is the story you tell yourself about yourself. It is how you make sense of your journey and purpose in life. And the story you tell yourself about yourself is self creating. Meaning if you have a narrative of hardship and being unlucky, you are probably going to see more hardship and create more bad luck for yourself. And they've proven that this, there's actually two types of self narratives. There's a contamination narrative and a redemption narrative People with a redemption narrative, they have a frame around the facts of their life of no matter what they do, no matter what comes their way, they're gonna overcome. With hard work and grit and resilience, they can overcome anything. And what's interesting about this in our research is this n- narrative, it holds across their life. Yes, their, their facts of their life, but their work, their love, their parenting, they repeat that same redemption narrative in everything that they do. The other kind of narrative is a contamination narrative. People with a contamination narrative, they feel that all the hardship and all the challenge and all the struggle has happened to them, and they can't make it through. They can't overcome. That no matter how hard they work, their grit, their strength, their resilience, they're a victim of circumstance. They typically feel very unlucky and very out of control. And when you have that kind of narrative, it's less about the facts of your life and more about the frames of your life, how you're seeing those facts. When you have a contamination narrative or you're in a relationship with someone with a c- with a contamination narrative, the only way that I think we can change that, 'cause our narratives are changeable, these are not fixed personality traits, is via conversation. So my secret hope with, with level three conversation is when you're in a safe relationship, when you can truly share who you are, when you feel understood, you can maybe rewrite your narrative. You can maybe flip from a contamination narrative, the frame of how you've seen your facts, into redemption, and that is my secret goal here.

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:21:42

        So how do we do that?

    24. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:21:43

        Okay. The first thing is beginning to uncover what your narrative is and what someone else's narrative is. So the first thing we have to understand is how our brain works. Our brains are storytellers. Our- That's why we love story. In level one, that was kind of a warmup. Like when we're telling story about our passions and our side hustles, we're also telling a story about ourselves all the time.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett1:22:02

        Mm-hmm.

    26. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:22:02

        And so we've told a story about ourselves, and there are what I call narrative hints. In conversation, people will leak the kind of narrative that they have. So they might say, "Oh, everyone always zigs and I zag. Gosh, everything bad always happens to me. Oh, of course, of course, yet another thing." If people have superlatives, always, never, they tend to be more of a contamination person. People who are in that contamination narrative space, they tend to see things as very black and white. They tend to see things as permanent. Versus redemption people tend to leak positive hints, and they feel very lucky. They say, "Oh, good things always happen to me," or, "There's always a silver lining. Oh yeah, you know, just my luck, I got it." Right? They're saying things about how it's happening. They're leaking their narratives.

17. 1:22:50 – 1:25:16

    The Psychology of Taking Control of Your Life

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:22:50

       Who ends up being more successful, happy, and healthy?

    2. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:22:52

       Absolutely people with redem- redemptive narratives. They have found that people with redemption narratives, they live longer, they have better immune systems, they have better connections, they feel happier. And that is because they feel they can handle whatever is thrown at them. They have a great internal locus of control. They feel that no matter what comes at them, they can handle it. And the good news is this is learnable, right? If we begin to talk about our narratives with our children, with our partners, we can begin to teach them, actually, you have growth here. You have agency over your narrative.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:23:19

       This internal locus of control thing is something that I learned about when I was probably 16 or 17 in psychology class.

    4. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:23:25

       Yeah.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:23:25

       And what does it mean, and what, what does the study say about the importance of it?

    6. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:23:29

       So an internal locus of control means that y- you feel that you're in control, you have agency over your decisions, over what happens to you, that things can happen to you in your life, but you can decide how you interact with them. You can decide how you behave. People with an external locus of control get their worth from outside sources. They feel validated when someone else tells them they look good. They feel good when someone else tells them they're doing good. They're looking for external s- ways to feel better. They look more at, like, for example, vanity metrics, their likes or their follows, how many friends they have, how often they're invited. Are they getting compliments?

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:05

       I almost... The analogy I was thinking of then is it's almost like you either think you're a bird or you think you're on a rollercoaster.

    8. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:24:12

       Tell me more.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:13

       You know, a rollercoaster has a fixed track.

    10. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:24:15

        Uh-huh. Ah.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:15

        Really irrespective of what you do, it's gonna go up, down, left, right-

    12. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:24:18

        Loopy, yeah

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:18

        ... spin, da, da, da, da.

    14. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:24:19

        Yeah.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:20

        And you're just holding on and going with it. Whereas a bird feels like it has the agency-

    16. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:24:25

        No rail. No rail

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:25

        ... to go, go anywhere. No rail, yeah.

    18. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:24:27

        Mm. Mm.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:28

        And some people, I think, do think that they're on a rollercoaster-

    20. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:24:31

        Yeah

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:32

        ... on a track.

    22. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:24:32

        I mean, look, I don't wanna get too deep, but if we were in a normal conversation, I would ask you about fate. You know, I think there's questions that can l- we start, begin to uncover someone's level three. Do you believe in luck? Do you believe you're lucky? Do you believe in fate? I think if you believe in fate, you're more likely to believe that you're on a rollercoaster, that you're on a ride that is predetermined, and now it's up, and then it's gonna go down, and they're gonna have a loop. So I wonder, I don't know, if someone has a high belief in fate or predetermined fate, if they would feel an external locus of control, and maybe that wouldn't be as good for their mental health. I wonder.

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:25:09

        I've done almost 700 interviews with some of the most interesting people in the world, and one of the things you learn, which is unexpected, is

18. 1:25:16 – 1:30:02

    Ads

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:25:16

       that vulnerability is the doorway to connection. And after sitting here for two, three hours with a guest, I feel a deep sense of connection to them. And as they leave, what I get them to do is to write a question in The Diary of a CEO. We've taken all of the questions from The Diary of a CEO. We have put the question here on this card with the name of the person that wrote it. So you can sit at home, as I do with my fiance and my colleagues at work and other people in my life. Whenever we get a minute, we play The Diary of a CEO Conversation Cards, and it is incredible what happens. These are great if you're in a romantic relationship and you wanna connect your partner more. These are also great if you're in a team and you want to bond your team together. And I have to say they're also great for families that wanna learn more about each other and that need a good excuse to spend some time in a digital world, in the analog environment, connecting human to human. It is remarkable what the right question at the right time can do. Go to thediary.com and you can get these conversation cards So going back to this idea of these contaminators

    2. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:26:21

       So we're listening for narrative hints, and we can ask questions like, "Are you lucky?" By the way, if you ask this question, it's, it's a, it's a sneaker because it sounds so casual when you ask, "Are you lucky?" But their answer really matters. Either there's three answers for are you lucky. One, oh yes. Yes, I feel lucky. When I asked you this last time, you said yes.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:26:43

       Yeah, I think I, I, I can't look at... I feel like I have so much privilege in my life that I feel like I have... I am lucky.

    4. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:26:49

       Yes. Yes.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:26:50

       Yeah.

    6. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:26:50

       I feel the same. I'm, I'm just so, I'm so grateful, right, that I get to have this super unique career. So I feel lucky, you feel lucky. So yes. If someone says yes right away, that tells you a lot about them. That means they probably have a high amount of gratitude, they probably have a high amount of control or agency, and they also have confidence.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:27:08

       Uh-huh.

    8. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:27:08

       'Cause the, the, the quickness, the speed of their answer matters here. Then there are people who are gonna go, "What? No. I, I don't think I'm lucky." Now, this is a really important thing to know about them, and I, I don't think you should try to change it, right? Like, I think that that's a version of toxic positivity telling someone, "Oh, but you're so lucky. You know, think of all the things that you should be grateful for." Usually that actually makes someone dig in. It makes them feel very misunderstood. You're, the best thing you can do if someone says they don't feel lucky is to understand it. Why? What are the forces? When did that happen? Did you ever feel lucky before? Sometimes people can flip from lucky to unlucky with a very bad circumstance, and it is crucial that you understand that before you judge it. So curiosity gets engaged. If someone says they're unlucky, I think that's an opportunity to really reach out and meet someone where they're at because in that moment they might. Are you gonna disagree with me?

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:28:01

       No, no, no.

    10. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:28:01

        Okay, good.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:28:01

        I was just thinking about how wonderful of a question that is for when you first meet someone-

    12. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:28:07

        Oh, it's the best

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:28:07

        ... in, in an interview or a first date.

    14. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:28:09

        The best.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:28:09

        I was like, maybe I should ask people in an interview, do you think you're lucky?

    16. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:28:13

        You should.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:28:13

        'Cause what, what is that revealing if they say yes? It's revealing-

    18. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:28:17

        Multitudes, right? Their gratitude, their perspective on life, their internal locus of control

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:28:22

        They're an optimist.

    20. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:28:23

        Often, not always, but often. Sometimes they can be realists.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:28:25

        Okay.

    22. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:28:25

        Right? Like, I am objectively lucky because I have all these things.

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:28:28

        Okay.

    24. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:28:28

        So they can be realists too, but man, you're gonna learn a lot. You're g- The whole point of level three is predicting behavior. If you know their luck, you're gonna be able to predict a lot of how they are in a relationship, how they are as a friend, how they are gonna be at work.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett1:28:41

        Mm-hmm.

    26. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:28:42

        Right? Fate I think is an interesting one to ask someone. And then there's other questions that seem silly but actually have tremendous meaning, and level three is all about meaning. Okay, so the third answer for lucky, thank you, is that person who is afraid to answer. And I have asked this question of thousands of people. And you get this bucket of, "Um, well, kind of." Now this is very interesting 'cause this tells you they're probably not that introspective. So it's one of two things. They actually don't know. I- They, they literally have not ever thought about it. And they will say to you, "I've never thought about it." And they're literally sitting in front of you reanalyzing their entire life trying to answer this question for you. They've never considered it. So that's also helpful. That's helpful. You know, if you're in a relationship and someone's not that introspective, that's good to know. Not good or bad, just good to know. Especially if you value that. Like introspection is one of my core values, so you know, that might, might not be bode well for me. Or second, they don't feel safe with you yet. It can be a hint that you went too, too fast. If someone says, "I g- kind of" or "I'm not sure," you might have jumped to level three too quickly and they are not ready to share, or they are embarrassed about something. They have shame or they have something in their past that they feel is very unlucky, but they don't feel ready to share it.

19. 1:30:02 – 1:36:04

    What Science Reveals About Luck and Success

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:30:03

       Have they done studies on this, this particular question?

    2. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:30:05

       Not on... I think only we have.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:30:07

       Only you have?

    4. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:30:08

       Richard Wiseman, uh, has done a lot of research on luck specifically, and he, he, there's like a luck test you can give someone. Uh, we did this in our, in our lab. So it's a official luck test to see how lucky you think you are. It's like a 10 question diagnostic and it asks all these different variations of that question. So it is academically studied, but I don't think what's studied, at least not yet, is how your answer is going to dictate your life. Like I would love to know in maybe future research in our lab is if you consider yourself very lucky, do you make more money?

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:30:38

       Mm-hmm.

    6. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:30:38

       Do you make less money? Is there any income? I- are you older? Are you younger? Are you a, a, a child of privilege or not [laughs] ? So I, I think it's coming. I mean, I think that's where this excitement kind of comes from. At least it gets me excited as a, as a behavior researcher.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:30:55

       I w- I was just looking at that study by, uh, Dr. Richard Wiseman.

    8. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:30:58

       Mm.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:30:59

       Uh, he discovered that people who answer, "Yes, I am lucky," actually generate their own good fortune by acting very, acting in very specific ways. They have lower anxiety. They have higher extroversion. They tend to talk to, talk to lots of people and make lots of fr- friendships and relationships. High openness to experience relentless optimism. That's very, very interesting.

    10. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:31:18

        I, I have considered, I've really considered this doing a luck workshop where all I do in the workshop is help you harvest your own feelings of luck. It is so healing. It is so fulfilling to feel lucky, to wake up in the day and feel lucky. It's better than gratitude, right? Gratitude is sort of shaming in its own way. I'm like kind of anti-gratitude. But feeling like you're really, really lucky is, is so empowering. And so I've thought about creating luck labs, like a little luck workshop where you can come and we're gonna, we're gonna convince you that you're lucky because it's that good of an investment in your, in your feelings of happiness.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:31:53

        I, I would like to ask the audience. I'm just super interested. I would like to ask all the, uh, people listening now if they, do you guys feel lucky? And I would like honest answers in the comment section. And l- don't, I know you just heard us say that lucky people are gonna have, uh, better lives [laughs] .

    12. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:32:09

        [laughs]

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:32:09

        Just be completely honest, just for pure research purposes.

    14. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:32:12

        Yeah.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:32:12

        And do you know what? I know people that don't feel lucky are gonna be honest because-

    16. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:32:15

        They're gonna be honest

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:32:15

        ... they're gonna be honest.

    18. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:32:16

        And they're gonna tell you exactly why.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:32:17

        Yeah.

    20. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:32:17

        And they're gonna get really mad at us because-

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:32:18

        Yeah

    22. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:32:18

        ... they're gonna say that something really bad happened to them, and how dare we tell them that luck is good. That's what's gonna happen 'cause I've, I've heard them do it

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:32:23

        Can you get mad at Vanessa and not me? I'm like [laughs]

    24. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:32:25

        No, get mad at him.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett1:32:27

        No, it's fine. You can get mad at me, it's fine.

    26. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:32:28

        I have no shell.

    27. SBSteven Bartlett1:32:29

        No, but, but, but this is why I'm asking, because I wanna, I wanna f- I'm coming from one perspective, from one experience that I've had in my life, and I feel like I am grateful, and I've been very privileged. So I would like to understand why other people do not feel lucky in their lives. And, you know, I, I, I guess it would also be surprising to hear that some people have been through objectively horrific things, but they, some of them might still feel lucky.

    28. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:32:49

        Okay.

    29. SBSteven Bartlett1:32:49

        So that would be interesting as well. So I'll be reading the comments.

    30. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:32:51

        And that is also fact versus frame.
20. 1:36:04 – 1:42:36

    The 5 Personality Archetypes Explained

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:36:04

       And what is an archetype?

    2. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:36:06

       Ah, yeah, sorry.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:36:07

       And, like, what is it?

    4. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:36:07

       I got excited.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:36:08

       Yeah.

    6. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:36:08

       Yes, so this is not like a personality type. It's not like Meyer-Brigg or Enneagram. Those are quite, like, stable. This is a fluid archetype of how you're seeing your story in this moment. For example, I might ask you, "If, if you had to write a memoir, what would the title of your memoir be?"

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:36:25

       And this is gonna impact how I have conversations with people.

    8. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:36:27

       This is gonna impact how you have conversations with people, how you behave interpersonally, so how you act at work. Like an ambitious hero is gonna act very, very differently at work than a contented pragmatist.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:36:37

       And is it gonna impact who I'm attracted to platonically and romantically?

    10. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:36:40

        Ab- absolutely. It dictates your relationship patterns.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:36:43

        Okay.

    12. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:36:43

        Right? Your conversational patterns, how you converse, how you bond, how you connect, and more importantly, since I'm so interested in work conversations, how you work. How you view effectiveness, how you view efficiency. My founders, right, ambitious hero founders are gonna have the same struggles over and over again. They're gonna be very different than the contented pragmatist founder.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:37:00

        So the ambitious hero, what's their sort of internal monologue?

    14. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:37:02

        Their internal monologue is, "I got this. I can do this. Hustle, hustle more."

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:37:06

        Mm-hmm.

    16. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:37:06

        "More, bigger, more. Bigger, bigger, more. I can do that better. I can do that [laughs] bigger." Right? It's like we, I get, you know, shiny object syndrome is, like, one of the nicer ways to talk about ambitious heroes. You know shiny object syndrome?

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:37:18

        No.

    18. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:37:19

        It's like a founder who won't stop trying new initiatives and keeps throwing new ideas on the table when they haven't finished their first one.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:37:25

        Oh. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

    20. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:37:26

        [laughs] Do you have that?

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:37:28

        Well, yes, but I have put systems in place-

    22. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:37:31

        Ah, yeah

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:37:32

        ... to make sure that it doesn't-

    24. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:37:33

        Oh

    25. SBSteven Bartlett1:37:33

        ... uh, sink the company, as Jeff Bezos said. Jeff Bezos said, "I've got enough ideas to sink the company," and he has to learn to release them at a cadence that the company can tolerate. So that's-

    26. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:37:42

        Love it

    27. SBSteven Bartlett1:37:43

        ... what I've learned.

    28. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:37:43

        So, and that's beautiful, 'cause that's self-knowledge. And everything that we're talking about is self-knowledge, right? If you're able to talk this through, you have self-knowledge to go to your team, "When I come to you with a new idea next week, say no."

    29. SBSteven Bartlett1:37:54

        Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    30. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:37:54

        "Don't let me do that."
21. 1:42:36 – 1:51:45

    Why Your Personality Changes How You Should Communicate

    1. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:42:36

       relationally, they struggle when people push them to try harder or do more because they're like, "I'm good. Life is good. Why would we change things?" [laughs] I have two very specific people in my life who are very annoyed by me as the ambitious hero because I have a new goal every month, and I'm constantly like... They're like, "I love smoothies," or they make great granola, and I'm like, "You should bottle it up and sell it at farmer's markets." And they're like, "But why?" And I'm like, "But why not?" [laughs] Right? So relationally, um, they're often seen as unambitious, but actually they're just quite content.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:43:11

       Mm-hmm. Interesting.

    3. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:43:13

       Do you know someone like that? [laughs]

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:43:14

       I do. I was just thinking also about just business generally and how when you're hiring teams, or even in relationships, you can, you can get a contented pragmatist holding back an ambitious hero. And I've often had friends come to me and say, like, "I've got this big startup idea that I wanna launch, but I, my girlfriend or my husband is," yeah-

    5. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:43:29

       Telling-

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:43:29

       "... telling me to, like, be realistic and-"

    7. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:43:30

       And they tend to be more a little bit, a little bit more fear-based. It's not that they're negative, but they, they are so contented that they're very, very hyper-practical. I also think on a team it is important to know what role will be best served by this. Ambitious roles, growth roles, rainmaker roles, leaders who are in a industry of change. Some, like fiduciary, you know, I do a lot of finance conferences and I work with a lot of folks in banking. Sometimes the ambitious heroes can really be crushed in those roles because there isn't a lot of fast-moving growth in those companies. A contented pragmatist can do really well in a very stable, traditional industry with a lot of regulation 'cause they are very happy to live in that regulation. You might want someone, might, I say might because it really depends on your company, but in a corporate culture, you know, you might want a contented pragmatist running your books.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:44:22

       Mm-hmm.

    9. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:44:22

       [laughs] They're quite conservative. They're not gonna make a big leap here, right? And they're also, they're like, "Let's keep it as it is. Let's know what we're doing. Don't, don't break, don't change if it's not broken," right? So you have to think about your roles. In a hiring manager It depends on how your, what your company is like

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:44:38

        And in terms of conversation tips-

    11. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:44:40

        Mm-hmm

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:44:41

        ... are there different tips for different-

    13. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:44:43

        Yes

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:44:43

        ... archetypes?

    15. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:44:44

        An ambitious hero, they are going to get so much dopamine talking about goals, talking about new, talking about progress. They are juiced by progress, and they wanna hear about progress too. So not only are they wanting to like, you know, I, uh, when someone asks me, "How are you?" It takes everything in me to not share my metrics. Like I know that's not socially acceptable, so I have to be like, "I'm doing great. The business is exploding." And then I just stop, right? Because it would be weird if I was like, "We have for 305% growth on Instagram," you know? [laughs] Like, right? 'Cause we love ambition. I also love ambition in others. Oh my gosh, like I, when I hear about my friend's side hustle that's growing, like I'm, that's all my texts, all my check-in texts, "I'm just thinking about you," is "How's the biz? How's the traffic? How are the book sales? How are the movie sales?" Like, I wanna hear about growth. A contented pragmatist, they wanna talk about ritual, they wanna talk about what works. They wanna savor life pl- life's pleasures. They're very good at savoring. And by the way, this can be a wonderful relationship sometimes because sometimes the contented pragmatist reminds the ambitious hero, "Enjoy it."

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:45:46

        Mm.

    17. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:45:47

        "Enjoy it. You've worked so hard, like just take in the view for a moment." And so they love, uh, gratitude. They love habit, ritual, routine. Um, they love to be honored for what works. They're the ones who will make a beautiful Thanksgiving dinner, and they wanna have that three-hour dinner and savor it and not talk about next year and not talk about goals and just savor this moment and talk about what they did last year and the year before that. A, a little bit different. Okay? Okay. This is, I think, the most important one to talk about, actually. I think it's the least understood of all the archetypes, which is the selfless helper. Okay? This is such a clear narrative. I almost always can predict it within the first few minutes of conversation, and that is because selfless helpers, their entire story is about giving. Their entire reason for being is being of service. They almost always pick careers that are of service. They almost always pick careers, teachers, coaches, trainers, nurses, doctors, and that is because they are so ingrained that to have worth is to help. And oftentimes where they can sometimes get into trouble is they don't feel worthy if they are not helping, and so they help so much there's nothing left. They have compassion burnout or compassion fatigue because they are giving and giving and giving and giving. They cannot say no. In a relationship, they are beautiful to be in a relationship with 'cause they are givers, right? They are, they are nurturers. They are giving. They're, they're, uh, you know, a lot of, uh, s- parents are qu- can flip into selfless helpers once they become a parent. I've seen this happen with both moms and dads. The moment they have a baby, they flip into selfless helper 'cause all of a sudden their purpose is there is to take care of this little person. The problem is that they h- they, they have a really hard time saying no.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:47:38

        They're people pleasers.

    19. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:47:39

        Yeah. They have, they struggle with boundaries. They say yes to too much, and they put themselves last. Can be both good and bad in a relationship, and so if you're in a relationship with them, sometimes half of it is just letting them stand up to protect themselves, to not give too much. And I mentioned this very briefly earl- earlier, but I've had many friends who are selfless helper, helpers, and they attract takers, right? They attract high-conflict people. You know what I mean by high-conflict person?

    20. SBSteven Bartlett1:48:07

        Oh, okay. Yeah.

    21. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:48:09

        A high-conflict person is Bill Eddy's work. He estimates that 10% of the population is a high-conflict person. A high-conflict person is someone who thrives with drama. They create difficulty in their relationships. They almost like to have difficult conversations. They thrive with that kind of drama. They see in absolutes, so they often speak in like black or white. Um, they see no nuance. They weaponize emotions. These days, they often sometimes use, mm, psychology to their advantage by taking advantage of people. And the, the worst high-conflict people, and this is where I've noticed it in my work when I was listening and reading Bill Eddy's work, I was like [gasps] they actually are enablers. They can get other people to do their dirty work for them. So they can sometimes put a seed in a selfless helper's ear, and the selfless helper will go, "Oh, how dare they?" And they'll go fight for you. And so sometimes selfless helpers, they are roped into things that are not necessarily what they should be doing because they are standing up for the person they care about.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett1:49:16

        And so if you're dealing with a selfless helper, in terms of conversation-

    23. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:49:19

        Yes. Sometimes they even think talking about themselves is taking.

    24. SBSteven Bartlett1:49:24

        Okay.

    25. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:49:24

        So you might sometimes in conversation, like you're asking them a question, and they're like, "Oh, no, no, enough about me."

    26. SBSteven Bartlett1:49:29

        Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    27. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:49:29

        "Oh, let's talk about you."

    28. SBSteven Bartlett1:49:30

        Yeah.

    29. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:49:30

        "Oh, I wanna help you. How can I help you?" It's so funny, like my friends who are selfless helpers, I cannot get them to tell me what I can help them with 'cause all they wanna do is check in on me. And I'm like, "No, no, I really do wanna hear about you." So sometimes they won't take the ball 'cause they're worried it's selfish. And so sometimes getting them to open up can be hard 'cause they feel like their needs are not important, but their needs are very important. Like, they're such beautiful people. So I think in conversation, the greatest gift we can give a selfless helper is letting them know that you're understood, I value you, and getting to know you is not taking from me, it's giving to me. I have to tell my friends, "It makes me feel good to help you. It makes me feel good to hear about what's going on for you. You're actually giving to me by telling me about yourself, not taking from me." So we have to gift to them. I think we have to be extremely conversationally generous with them.

    30. SBSteven Bartlett1:50:18

        Mm-hmm.
22. 1:51:45 – 1:55:43

    The Psychology of the “Unlucky Struggler”

    1. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:51:45

       The creative disruptor. [laughs] So the creative disruptor, this is my most challenging archetype, so I'm really gonna try to talk about this archetype in a positive way. Cr- creative disruptors do not like rules. Their entire ethos is breaking things. They want to disrupt. They wanna go anti-norm. They wanna be counter-cultural. They're the ones who are like, "I don't need a blueprint." [laughs] Right? And they, them and me in conversation is, is not always the best. They're probably the ones in the com- comments who are like, "Well, this doesn't apply to me because of all these reasons," 'cause they want to push. They want to challenge. And this is wonderful because they often are the really creative thinkers, right? They often are the ones who are thinking outside the box the most. They're often the ones who are willing to challenge the way something has always been done. The problem is, is sometimes that can rub people the wrong way, and sometimes these folks can thrive over conflict in the way of it's just, it's fun for them. Like it's fun to negotiate. It's fun to push. Uh, litigators, my litigators who are watching, I find that my, my litigators tend to fall into this, into this category. [laughs]

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:52:53

       Hmm.

    3. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:52:54

       Or very disruptive entrepreneurs.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:52:56

       Mm-hmm.

    5. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:52:56

       I'm, I know there's ones on this show, I've listened to the interviews with them and I go, "Oh, that's a creative disruptor."

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:53:01

       Hmm.

    7. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:53:01

       It's someone who they're not only building something, but they're not quite an ambitious hero 'cause they wanna break things. Like they wanna build it and break it.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:53:07

       Hmm.

    9. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:53:07

       They wanna reinvent the entire system, and they're doing it... You know, Edward Snowden is, is one of the examples I give in the book of like he, he wanted to change something and also he, he wanted to like stick it to the man. Like, he wanted to break the system that he was in.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:53:22

        Mm-hmm. Hmm. Okay.

    11. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:53:24

        Do you struggle with this? Do you like this? In interviews they, they're very interesting.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:53:28

        They're really good in interviews.

    13. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:53:29

        Ooh.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:53:29

        I actually interviewed someone the other day that was like that.

    15. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:53:31

        So interesting.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:53:32

        Because they have a contrarian view. By nature, everything they say is, like, deeply contrarian.

    17. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:53:36

        Mm-hmm.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:53:37

        But I think, I think having people like that that are challenging around, their, like, default is challenge is quite, is quite useful.

    19. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:53:43

        Yes.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett1:53:43

        It helps me be, sort of refine my, my, my own points of view.

    21. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:53:46

        And they live as dream killers.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett1:53:48

        Yeah.

    23. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:53:48

        Right? They live as dream killers.

    24. SBSteven Bartlett1:53:49

        Yeah, they're dream killers for sure. Yeah.

    25. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:53:50

        It can be amazing, but it can be exhausting.

    26. SBSteven Bartlett1:53:52

        Yeah.

    27. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:53:52

        So in conversation it just, it's good to go in prepared to know, ah, I need this. I wanna get stronger. I wanna be anti-fragile. They'll break for you to make you stronger. Or like, I'm a delicate flower right now. [laughs] I, I-

    28. SBSteven Bartlett1:54:03

        Yeah

    29. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:54:03

        ... cannot do the dream killing. I'm exhausted by it.

    30. SBSteven Bartlett1:54:05

        It's a fine line between that and, like, pessimism.
23. 1:55:43 – 1:59:08

    How to Escape an Awkward Conversation

    1. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:55:43

       it too.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:55:43

       If you're in a conversation with one of these people that, um, you don't gel with, is there a... I mean, you talk about it a little bit in the book, but what are the ways to get out of a bad conversation without offending people?

    3. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:55:53

       Oh my goodness. Uh, it's called a graceful exit. So there's a, a behavior concept, the peak end effect, that we remember the first few minutes of a conversation and the last few minutes of conversation. But we tend to focus a lot on the first impression.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:56:05

       Peak end.

    5. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:56:06

       Like, like, so when you're remembering something, you remember the peak of a conversation and the end of the conversation.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:56:10

       Okay.

    7. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:56:11

       Yeah. But we also, of course, the first impressions are incredibly important as well. We tend to over-index on the first impression. So we think a lot about our first few minutes, our opening line, maybe the highlight, but we don't really think about the end. But actually that's what we leave people with. So I, I have a formula. You know I love a formula. Right? This, it calms my anxiety when I'm in a conversation and it's time to go, right? Either, either we're not feeling it, like we're not, we're just not clicking or like, we gotta go. One, first is a future cue. So it's future cue Plus compliment or action. So a future cue is when you ask about or mention something coming in the future. The reason for this is it's a subtle way to shift the brain into not here, later.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:56:49

       Okay, so let's role play.

    9. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:56:50

       Yeah, let's do it.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:56:50

        We're at a, we're at a party, we're having some wine, and things get a little bit awkward. We've ran out of things to say to each other.

    11. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:56:55

        Um, do you have any fun plans coming up this weekend? Doing anything fun?

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:56:58

        Uh, there's this wine bar across town that I'm really into, so I'm probably just gonna go there, I think, with some friends.

    13. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:57:03

        Oh my gosh. Well, I hope it's lovely. Make sure to try, um, I love a Chardonnay. Uh, I dunno if you like white wine. Be sure to try it. Future cue. So I, I just asked you about a future, and I'm gonna wish you well on it, which already gets us into future mode, and then I'm gonna end on a compliment or an action. It was so lovely talking to you. I hope you have a great time at that wine bar. I'm gonna go get some more coffee.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:57:23

        Have you got any fun plans coming up?

    15. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:57:25

        I have so many fun plans coming up. My daughters just started school, and so we're having a celebratory Labor Day weekend this weekend.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:57:31

        What do you love to talk about, Vanessa? That's the-

    17. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:57:34

        That's the signature question.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:57:35

        What have you always wanted to learn? See, I'm, what if they just go straight back in, though? 'Cause that's happened to me before where I've tried to-

    19. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:57:40

        Okay, this is where the, the action and the compliment, that, that second piece. So the future cue is we mention future, and you're right, they might, they might keep going with it. The action and compliment is really important. So wrapping up the conversation sounds like, "It's been so wonderful talking to you." And I'm using an exit voice. Do you hear the exit voice?

    20. SBSteven Bartlett1:57:56

        Mm-hmm.

    21. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:57:56

        That our tone really matters here. So it's been so wonderful talking to you. I, I hope that that goes great this weekend, or be sure to connect with me on LinkedIn. I, I, I was so happy we were able to trade numbers. So you're mentioning the action that's going to come later and it's using that closing voice and then the action. I'm gonna go grab more coffee. I'm gonna go say hi to the host. I'm gonna run to the ladies room. I'm gonna head home. Right? Like, then they cannot, right? Like, you've ended it then. And you also can use non-verbal cues here. So the moment I take a step back, the moment I angle my body towards the door, our brain subtly sees, ah, they are literally trying to physically disengage. So usually I pair those with those subtle non-verbal cues of, like, a slow back up and I angle towards the door.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett1:58:35

        Okay.

    23. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:58:36

        And remember, you can be assertive with this. The, the worst kind of last impression is a lingering awkwardness. [laughs] There is nothing worse than a, "Well, this has been good. It's, it's been good for you. It's, it's been good for me. Well, um, so, uh..." Ugh. Those are the worst. So be assertive with this. If you wanna end it, if you're feeling it's the end, do it. It's been so great talking to you. I'm gonna go grab some more coffee. Good luck at the wine bar this weekend. Have so much fun. Right? Like, be assertive with it or else it will linger, and that is just kryptonite for charisma.

24. 1:59:08 – 2:00:30

    How to Build Aura and Rizz

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:59:08

       On this point of being assertive-

    2. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:59:10

       Oh, yes

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:59:10

       ... I was talking to some friends the other day about people that have aura and rizz.

    4. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:59:15

       Ooh, yeah.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:59:16

       I don't-

    6. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:59:16

       Who has aura and rizz? Who does?

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:59:18

       I don't know. I don't really know what the words mean. I kinda know what aura means, but I don't know, really know what rizz means. So I, I, I'm curious, like, how you define those terms and, like, how does one cultivate aura and rizz?

    8. VEVanessa Van Edwards1:59:28

       Okay. I think aura and rizz, and the only reason this is front of mind f- is, is my daughter asked me. She heard one of my YouTube videos and she said, "What is charisma?" She asked me that, and I was like, "Ooh," like, she's eight. I said, "Charisma or rizz or aura is someone that you really wanna be around. It's when they walk into a room, you wanna go over and talk to them, you wanna sit near them, you wanna listen to them, you wanna work with them, you wanna play with them." And I said, "Do you know anyone like that?" And she goes, "Oh, yes." And she named, so interesting, she named two kids in her class that I had already identified as very charismatic. Like, I knew, I n- in my mind, I knew who the charismatic kids were in her class. I had, I had popped them, right? I, I saw them. They were the kids that you really wanted to be around. They, they have this aura about them, and she named those exact two kids. So I think that that definition works. It's someone that we are drawn to verbally, physically. I think it also, some of it is can be physical. I think there's something hormonal there as well, um, but it's someone we're drawn to.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett2:00:29

       Okay,

25. 2:00:30 – 2:04:51

    How to Become More Charismatic

    1. SBSteven Bartlett2:00:30

       so based on the 20 years of research you've done-

    2. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:00:32

       Yes

    3. SBSteven Bartlett2:00:32

       ... if you were trying to teach me to have aura and rizz-

    4. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:00:35

       Yes

    5. SBSteven Bartlett2:00:36

       ... what are, like, the basics?

    6. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:00:39

       Be really easy to talk to.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett2:00:40

       Okay.

    8. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:00:41

       Right? So the point of level one is to put someone at ease. We like to be pe- around people who are, one, clearly signaling. We don't like people who are mute with their body language. We don't like people who under signal. We like people who clearly like us, right? So we have to be very out, aloud with our liking. So saying things like, "It's always so fun talking to you," or, "Oh, you always have the best stories. Oh, you always make me laugh. I love when you're put on my team." So clearly signaling like and verbally. I think we, there's something called, um, signal amplification bias, which is this bias that we have that we think we're being really obvious with our cues, but we are not, in fact, being obvious. We think that people know that we like them. Of course they know that we like them, but actually people underestimate liking, right? The liking gap. So we like people who are very clearly broadcasting likes. And I have a funny story, if I may. So this [laughs] hit very close, embarrassingly, to home. Because of my job, I don't know if this happens to you, my friends often ask me to suss out their partners, like, potential partners. So, like, a friend will be like, "Hey, I met a new guy. Can, can you go out to dinner with us and tell me what you think?" [laughs] Does that hit, like you at all?

    9. SBSteven Bartlett2:01:51

       Absolutely not.

    10. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:01:52

        Oh my. [laughs] You're like, "Nobody asks me."

    11. SBSteven Bartlett2:01:57

        No. [laughs]

    12. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:01:57

        So I get this a lot and, and by the way, I, I, I'm just a regular person, so I'm always like, "Are, are you sure you really wanna know what I'm..." Yes, they w- So I go on a lot of, like, second or third little go-see coffee dates to see, to suss out the guy or girl.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett2:02:10

        I bet you love that. [laughs]

    14. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:02:11

        I, it makes me feel needed. [laughs] It makes me feel needed. Okay, I also love eavesdropping on, like, the date conversation. So she said, "I really want you to meet this guy." Let's call him Schmaubert. Okay?

    15. SBSteven Bartlett2:02:23

        Okay.

    16. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:02:23

        Okay. [laughs] Uh, and so we go on this dinner and we have, like, a Mediterranean platter, and you know, he was okay. You know, it's like, okay. He's, he's nice, but I wasn't like green flag, green flag, you know? It's kinda like meh. So the next day I get the call. She's like, "Hey, what did you think?" And I'm about to say, "He's only okay," when she goes, "You know what? He just loved you." I was like, "Oh, what?" [laughs] She said, "Oh, you know, sh- he thought you were so funny and he already bought your Audible book and he just loved talking to you." Like the most, I started to like him more. [laughs] Like h- it was so embarrassing 'cause as she was telling me all these things about how he liked me, I was like, "You know [laughs] Patch Maubertt, he is a great guy. He's clever. He's so smart. He liked my, he liked my jokes, really?" And she's like, "Yeah, he just, you know, he just really had a good time with you." And I felt like I liked him more in that moment and I was horrified by my own response. And I realized we so want to be liked that when someone clearly signals liking it makes us like them more, right? So we can be charismatic, one is we send clear signals of liking, but also two, and we talked about this a little bit last time, is fundamentally 82% of our impressions of people are based on warmth and competence. So people who are first and is first signaling I'm open, I'm friendly, and then competent, I'm capable, I'm efficient, I'm effective, make us feel like, "Whew, I'm in good hands." In this way every human being we first meet we're trying to answer two questions: can I trust you and can I rely on you? So the second thing that charismatic people are doing is they're signaling, "You can trust me and you can rely on me. I'm gonna get it done. I'm gonna only speak when I know something. I'm gonna be assertive. I'm gonna carry us through this conversation." I think that sort of the, this came after Cues in a good way because Cues was very much about picking your signals.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett2:04:21

        Mm-hmm.

    18. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:04:22

        But Conversation is about being a bit assertive about the plan, right? Like if you read this book you are going to feel in control in conversation. You're gonna feel like you're approaching a conversation and you know what you wanna do if you have intention. We like that.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett2:04:35

        Mm-hmm.

    20. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:04:36

        Charismatic people like they can, they carry us, right? Like they're like, "We, we got this. We're gonna do level, I'm gonna ask about this. I'm gonna do dream killing and if I like you, if I like you we're gonna talk about your character." And so I think that that plan is a secret door into char-

26. 2:04:51 – 2:08:59

    The Hidden Habits That Kill Your Charisma

    1. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:04:51

       charisma.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett2:04:52

       Is there anything else that, you know, people accidentally do that holds them back from being someone of high aura?

    3. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:04:59

       Yes. They try to be impressive.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett2:05:02

       Mm-hmm.

    5. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:05:02

       Now I know we talked about this before, but here's what happens when you go into the conversation trying to sound smart, trying to impress people with your accolades and your background is you actually end up creating distance. And I have um, a story where this felt very, very real. So I was, um, living in Austin, Texas. I, I moved since then, but I was in Austin, Austin, Texas and I was invited to a VIP party.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett2:05:24

       She lives down at the beach in LA.

    7. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:05:25

       I do. [laughs]

    8. SBSteven Bartlett2:05:25

       So if anyone wants to do lunch or dinner-

    9. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:05:28

       I do [laughs]

    10. SBSteven Bartlett2:05:28

        ... or breakfast with Vanessa she is, I'll share her number in the comment section. It'll be pinned. [laughs]

    11. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:05:35

        [laughs] Exactly. So I was in Austin and I was invited to this VIP party and I was like, "Oh man, like what, w- why am I being invited?" Like so imposter syndrome. So we get there and I'm like immediate- I'm like, "Oh, I know that person's YouTube channel. Like I know that person." Like the people I immediately recognized and I'm like, "Whoa." And then of course like within the first five minutes the leader of this group says, "We're gonna get in a circle and we are going to introduce ourselves." And this is like, [sighs] so we get in a circle and the first person basically is like, "I'm a billionaire and I invented the internet," or something like that. And the second person is like-

    12. SBSteven Bartlett2:06:14

        [laughs] I would love to know what they actually said. I don't, that's what you heard.

    13. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:06:17

        It was so impressive.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett2:06:17

        That's what you heard. [laughs]

    15. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:06:17

        That's what I heard. I was like, right.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett2:06:19

        I invented the internet.

    17. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:06:21

        Like it was so impressive it hurt, you know? And I was like, "Okay. Okay. It's the first person. It's all right." The second person is like, "I cured cancer." Right? Like, like, like amazing. Like m- and it was just like person after person it was like getting more and more impressive and like it's slowly coming to me. And I was like, e- everyone was trying to be impressive, right? Like they're, they were saying things that y- were meant to, to shock and wow and awe you. It gets to me and I was like, "My name is Vanessa and I'm a recovering awkward person and I help smart awkward people with my books and my YouTube channel." And everyone laughed and took a deep breath. Now I have other accolades that I could've shared but I was like it's nothing in comparison and also I just wanted to be a little vulnerable so I said, "And I don't know why I was invited to this party." And everyone laughed, right?

    18. SBSteven Bartlett2:07:11

        [laughs]

    19. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:07:12

        There's like a little bit of vulnerability. Every single person after me said, "I'm a recovering awkward person." So like they also were able to feel awkward so it changed the nature of the rest of the invites or the rest of the introductions. And then afterwards the circle like breaks up for networking and most people came over to me.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett2:07:29

        Hmm.

    21. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:07:29

        Not the billionaire, not the curer of cancer, not the saving the Earth climate change guru, but wanted to talk to me about awkwardness and about my YouTube channel and about they're smart but they feel uncomfortable. And I realized like I was just the easiest person to talk to in that circle.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett2:07:47

        You have aura, Vanessa.

    23. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:07:48

        [laughs]

    24. SBSteven Bartlett2:07:49

        You have rizz.

    25. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:07:50

        I was the, I was the easiest person to talk to in that circle and so I think that if we can-

    26. SBSteven Bartlett2:07:54

        Do you have aura, Vanessa? You parlayed that one out for me.

    27. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:07:56

        Maybe when my makeup is done.

    28. SBSteven Bartlett2:07:58

        Do you have aura?

    29. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:08:00

        [laughs] When my makeup is done maybe.

    30. SBSteven Bartlett2:08:01

        [laughs]
27. 2:08:59 – 2:13:21

    What “Aura” Actually Means

    1. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:08:59

       do really well

    2. SBSteven Bartlett2:08:59

       But one of the other sort of definitions of aura is the person who, I don't know, they just seem to take up more space. They, they seem to speak slower and be-

    3. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:09:09

       Mm

    4. SBSteven Bartlett2:09:09

       ... you kinda like see them walk across a room.

    5. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:09:12

       Mm.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett2:09:12

       What is that? And, like, how are they cultivating that, like, that kinda aura?

    7. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:09:16

       I think there's, I, this is my guess. I've also thought about this, 'cause when someone walks into a room and you're just like , "Like, what-"

    8. SBSteven Bartlett2:09:22

       Michelle Obama was like that.

    9. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:09:23

       Oh, I've never met her.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett2:09:25

        Yeah.

    11. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:09:25

        I've never met her, but, like, I can only imagine.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett2:09:27

        Yeah.

    13. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:09:27

        Right, or becoming.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett2:09:28

        Tony Robbins as well.

    15. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:09:29

        Oh-

    16. SBSteven Bartlett2:09:29

        He had serious

    17. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:09:30

        ... f- for sure.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett2:09:31

        Yeah.

    19. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:09:32

        I think it's winner energy. I think when certain people walk into a room and they have claimed their space, I think it's internal and external. I think physically, and this has been studied, they are ta- physically taking up more space, whether they're sh- short or tall, in that winners, they have more space between their ears and their shoulders. They take up more space between their torso and their arms. They literally claim more space physically, right? So if I were to, like, do the entire interview, and I've seen people do interviews in your chair where they're taking up as little space as possible, you, you, you aren't as drawn to this, right? And so I think that physical, there's a physical taking up of space, and they're micro movements. Like, I, it's not walking in, like, with my arms up. It's, it's micro, right? It's, like, the a sh- slight down of the shoulder. It's a slight up of the head. And when I do that, it affects everything about me. Like, it affects my vocal tone. One thing that I think about a lot is maximum resonance point. Maximum resonance point is a, a part of your voice that is the lowest end of your natural range that signifies pride, that signifies calm. So for example, when I'm afraid or, or a little bit nervous, like, I'll tend to go a little bit higher in my vocal range. And if I were to do the entire presentation in this tone of voice where I was talking to you, it would be horrible, right? You would not wanna listen to it, and that's because I'm tightening my vocal cords. And when someone's very anxious, they tighten their shoulders. They tighten their neck. They tighten their chin. It's more of a loser feeling, right? The-

    20. SBSteven Bartlett2:10:55

        And you're also speaking a little bit faster then.

    21. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:10:57

        Oh, I wa- Oh, interesting. I, I didn't even notice it, but yes, I think I was, yeah.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett2:11:00

        Rushing a bit.

    23. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:11:01

        Rushing, rushing, yeah. And I had less breath. Like, I'm actually out of breath after doing that.

    24. SBSteven Bartlett2:11:05

        Mm.

    25. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:11:05

        So when we don't have breath, we're speaking too quickly. My vocal cords are tense. You can hear it, and they're taking up less even vocal space, right?

    26. SBSteven Bartlett2:11:13

        Mm.

    27. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:11:14

        Winners use this maximum resonance point. So we can actually try it if you want to.

    28. SBSteven Bartlett2:11:17

        Sure.

    29. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:11:17

        So I want you at the very top of your, I want you, you're gonna take in a deep breath and say hello at the top of your breath. So it sounds like this. Hello.

    30. SBSteven Bartlett2:11:24

        Okay, I'm a little bit sick, hence why my voice might sound a bit different today. So I'm a little bit deeper than normal, but, um, hello.
28. 2:13:21 – 2:16:11

    The Eye Contact Trick That Builds Connection

    1. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:13:21

       it.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett2:13:21

       What about the rest of me? So we, we've talked about some of the specific conversational questions at the three stages. We've talked about vocal tone. Is there any other part of being a great conversationalist? And I'm thinking now about, I guess we talked about hands and taking up space.

    3. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:13:35

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett2:13:35

       But even eye contact. I think about this a lot. It takes a lot of, dare I say, confidence to, for me to, like, look you in the eyes like this, Vanessa-

    5. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:13:43

       Yeah

    6. SBSteven Bartlett2:13:43

       ... and ask you a question.

    7. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:13:45

       That is because when we are making eye contact, chemically we're producing oxytocin, which is great for connection. But also, you are not able to process as much. The reason why eye contact is quite complicated, and I think sometimes the clips on social media have, ugh, I don't like clips very much 'cause it takes out the nuance. Eye contact, yes, universally, it, it, it's good when we have oxytocin. But also, I cannot do complex thinking when I'm doing this with you, right? Like, when I'm trying to remember something, I immediately look away. If you were to ask me a complex math problem, I look away. And so in conversation, we actually do not want 100% eye contact. We don't even want 70% eye contact. 60 to 70% eye contact is, is more ideal in Western cultures. But if someone is deep thinking or they are social processing, you actually do want less eye contact 'cause they're, they're trying to access their memories. If I'm doing this, I'm purely focused on the connection. But we're in an interview. I wanna, what does my work say? What was the research? What was the number? And so that is why it can be sometimes uncomfortable is because it's not allowing your brain to think. It's just about connection.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett2:14:46

       But when you're delivering, like, I understand the deliberation.

    9. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:14:48

       Mm.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett2:14:48

        You look away when you deliberate. I do that, like I'm doing right now.

    11. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:14:50

        Yeah, yeah.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett2:14:51

        But then when I deliver the point-

    13. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:14:52

        Oh, yeah

    14. SBSteven Bartlett2:14:53

        ... I come back. Is that-

    15. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:14:54

        You know why? Because one, yes, you're trying to connect, but two, when you are delivering, you wanna watch my face to see do I believe you Am I raising my eyebrows? Am I showing you disgust? Am I like, "I don't believe it." I l- I harden my lower lid. So the reason why we'll often, like we're processing, we're processing, and then we're delivering is because two things are happening at once. We're trying to connect. I want you to hear my point and feel it with oxytocin, but also I wanna see, do you believe me or are you raising your eyebrows?

    16. SBSteven Bartlett2:15:22

        Mm-hmm.

    17. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:15:22

        Right? So I'm making more eye contact with you because I'm trying to see where your interest li- lies, right? Whereas you're looking at your iPad 'cause you're trying to get to the next question, you wanna make sure that we're covering everything. That's why this is not natural, right? This doesn't usually happen in a natural conversation. But it's also when you're in conversation, you're better off making eye contact in the first few seconds of an interaction. So right when you're on that greeting, "Oh, it's so good to see you," hopping on video or in person 'cause you're giving that burst of oxytocin, but then you're okay to look away. You're okay to process. You might wanna make your eye contact most when you're trying to suss out how is this person receiving this.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett2:16:00

        Mm-hmm.

    19. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:16:00

        That also makes you easy to talk to because if I notice that you're lighting up about something, I can pivot more into that. If I notice that you're like, "Ugh, that's horrible," I wanna be easy to talk to by pivoting away from it.

29. 2:16:11 – 2:22:23

    How to Become an Exceptional Listener

    1. SBSteven Bartlett2:16:11

       And when you're talking to me, what is the best way to be a good listener?

    2. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:16:17

       Mm. So-

    3. SBSteven Bartlett2:16:18

       'Cause some people go, like they interrupt. They go, "Uh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah." And then you've got other people who will like nod and like-

    4. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:16:24

       Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh

    5. SBSteven Bartlett2:16:24

       ... really sort of encourage and cheerlead when you're talking. And then you'll have the like, uh, some people that they, they kind of, they don't know they're doing it, but they start to like scowl at you.

    6. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:16:32

       Hmm. I know. I know. Yes, yes.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett2:16:33

       Yeah. I can think of a few people.

    8. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:16:34

       I, that really bothers me. [laughs]

    9. SBSteven Bartlett2:16:35

       Yeah.

    10. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:16:36

        But it, it, I, I struggle with that a little bit, uh, just personally 'cause I'm a people pleaser. So when someone's like, "Ugh." I actually have a friend who defaults to the disgust microexpression. He doesn't even realize he's doing it. It's a punctuator. A facial punctuator is a, a non-verbal habit. It doesn't actually mean anything emotionally, it's just how they are at rest. I've had to tell myself he doesn't actually feel disgusted.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett2:16:54

        [laughs]

    12. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:16:55

        So you're talking about warmth. All the listening cues are about warmth. So listening cues are nodding, triple nod, uh, that in India, Bulgaria, and Pakistan nodding's a little bit different, so I always try to make that note. A head tilt is a universal warmth signal 'cause we're exposing our ear up to the sky. Um, a lean in-

    13. SBSteven Bartlett2:17:13

        Uh-huh

    14. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:17:13

        ... is a warm and competent both actually, 'cause I'm trying to literally get closer to you to understand more deeply. A competent cue where you're listening is a lower lid flex. So if I flex my lower lids at you, this is a universal response. When we flex our lower lids, we're trying to see something better, right? If I say, "Do you see that over there?" We harden our lower lids. What we're doing biologically is we're hooding our eyes to, to block the light so I can see more detail. So when you're speaking and someone goes, they are trying to deeply understand you. It is not positive or negative. It is a cue of intense focus. Take note.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett2:17:48

        Mm-hmm.

    16. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:17:49

        Because whatever you just said has triggered something in their brain that they're going, "What, what, what, what, what, what, what, what?"

    17. SBSteven Bartlett2:17:54

        Mm-hmm.

    18. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:17:55

        Right? So when I'm giving, you know, a presentation to a C-suite and I have a couple or, or you know, investors or important people and I see someone do a lower lid flex, I have a choice. I can take note of what I just said and bookmark it, or I can stop and do dynamic presenting. We haven't even talked about presenting, but I can sw- Does this make sense?

    19. SBSteven Bartlett2:18:15

        Yeah.

    20. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:18:16

        Are we good? Any questions here? You know, let me give you another example of this. So you can also look for these cues, which also makes you a pleasure to listen to because I am so deeply listening that I'm trying to respond to your emotional reaction to what I'm saying.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett2:18:28

        I think that is a really, and we sort of touched on it earlier, but I think it's a really unappreciated part of being a good conversationalist is being dynamic-

    22. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:18:36

        Mm

    23. SBSteven Bartlett2:18:36

        ... based on the cues you're getting back.

    24. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:18:38

        Yes, yes. Actually l- please let's double click on this for a second because I think my planners, my planners who are watching are like, "Okay, I got a plan, Vanessa. I got it. I got my, my questions." What I don't want you to do is have the plan, ask the question, and then check off to the next one.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett2:18:56

        Mm-hmm.

    26. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:18:57

        Right? The whole point of these is actually to be quite dynamic. It might be that you ask, "What's your personal passion project?" And you spend hours talking about that. What a pleasure, what a delight. That means you're being dynamic in that, whoa, you like, you both lit up on it. You can go there. You can dive deep. So I want you to have a plan, but I also want you to be dynamic with it. Like, both can be true. [laughs]

    27. SBSteven Bartlett2:19:19

        Vanessa, of all the things that we have discussed, is there anything we haven't talked about that we should've talked about that appears within your new book, Conversation: How to Connect with Anyone and Make Every Interaction Count?

    28. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:19:32

        There is one thing that we didn't get to touch on that I think can help you prepare for good conversation, just very practically.

    29. SBSteven Bartlett2:19:38

        Mm-hmm.

    30. VEVanessa Van Edwards2:19:38

        Which is you are going to be asked boring questions. We talked about this earlier. I want you to, if you are willing, write down the questions you are asked the most often. Everyone kinda gets similar questions depending on their job, their industry, where they are in the world. What are the questions you're asked most often, and how can you do better? And then think of what are gifts to the other person. Not just interesting for you, right? Like, not just like, "Oh, well, you know, an interesting fact about me," but like what is a story or an anecdote or an answer that's going to let the other person be like, "Oh, me too" or, "Really?" or, "What got you into that?" or, "Why did you do that?" Because then you're actually, your answer is doing two things. It's interesting, but it's also conversationally generous.

Episode duration: 2:26:25