World Leading Psychologist: How To Detach From Overthinking & Anxiety: Dr Julie Smith | E122

1. 0:00 – 0:58

   Intro

   1. JSDr Julie Smith0:00

      I can't stop now. I can't- I can't stop doing this.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett0:02

      Dr. Julie Smith, she's a clinical psychologist with more than three million followers. How is she dealing with stress, pressure, burnout, overload?

   3. JSDr Julie Smith0:12

      We're subjected to these kind of ideals. We're trying to do everything perfectly, and it's impossible. All those things that- that we end up doing habitually are the things that work instantly, going to the fridge or grabbing the wine or whatever it is. And actually, the things that tend to work in the long term are hardest in the moment, like sitting with it and feeling it and using skills to get yourself through it. I just love that therapy. It's great for looking at the patterns and the cycles that people tend to feel stuck in in their relationship, and it's incredible how life-changing that can be for people.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett0:42

      Without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. Could you do me a quick favor if you're listening to this? Please hit the follow or subscribe button. It helps more than you know, and we invite subscribers in every month to watch the show in person.

2. 0:58 – 5:32

   What made you want to help people?

   1. SBSteven Bartlett0:58

      Dr. Julie Smith, I had some time to read as much as I could about your story. And with lot, a lot of my guests, there's often tons of backstory online about their personal lives, their upbringing, their childhood. That didn't seem to be the case with you, and I think one of the things that, from getting further and further down the road with your story, I thought was really wonderful, was typically when people are successful and they- they reach the levels of success that you have in their disciplines, um, we- we tend to want to point to some kind of anomalous childhood where something traumatic or, um, really significant happened that shaped them and made them obsessive or overly dedicated or passionate. Was that the case for you? What was your childhood like? Tell me.

   2. JSDr Julie Smith1:42

      Uh, yeah. So, uh, no, there- uh, there's no, um, sort of, major trauma that- that triggered my kind of mission to do any of this, or even, you know, had... Uh, a few questions recently about, you know, why I was even interested in psychology, and- and actually, I've always been fascinated by people, by humans, and- and I read a lot as a child, but actually everything I read was about normal people in normal life situations and sort of development of how people become who they- who they are, and, um, that's always fascinated me. And- and actually, I- I started studying psychology because I found it really interesting. You know, just, um, there was- there was a new A-level available at my school, my college, and so I thought, well, that sounds okay, that sounds great, let's try it, and I was just fascinated by it. And so I kind of went with that and went to university because everybody else was going and it seemed like that was what you do now, and, um, so psychology felt like, you know, an interesting thing to do. I had no idea really what jobs could be at the end of it. I just kept following my interests all the way along. And- and actually when people ask me advice about new careers and finding your passion and all those things, that's... The only advice I give people really is, you know, uh, follow your interests, do the thing that- that excites you or that inspires you, and you don't have to have this, you know, epiphany moment that transforms your life and makes you passionate about doing what it is you're doing. Um, if you follow your interests, you're much more likely to end up somewhere, um, in- in a job that- that you love.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett3:15

      Having done this podcast for quite some time now, it's almost a bit of a psychological, I don't know, um, uh, it's- it's almost a bit of a psychological journey with each guest, but it's als- uh, sometimes it also feels like therapy, and I'm- I'm starting to learn more and more about humans generally, the more and more of them that I get to speak to, especially because I'm sp- I'm- I tend to be speaking to people that are considered to be anomalies. In your experience, having understood the nature of the human mind and how we think and how trauma and all of these things and mood and decision-making are all intertwined together, what have you learnt just more broadly and generally about the nature of human beings and how- and how we come to be the way that we are? I know that's a big question-

   4. JSDr Julie Smith3:58

      Yeah. (laughs)

   5. SBSteven Bartlett3:58

      ... but it's one of the ones that I- I- I actually... I'll tell you what I've learned, okay? Because then maybe that will give you a- a bit of an indication as to what I'm- what I'm referring to here. One of the things I thought before I started doing this podcast and speaking to people a lot was, I thought we were all just so fundamentally different, and I thought that, um, uh, my job would be to find out all the ways that all these successful people are different. But I think over time, I've actually learned the opposite, that fundamentally humans are quite predictable in terms of how if you poke it like this, typically, the- a- like, X, Y, or Z will happen.

   6. JSDr Julie Smith4:32

      Yeah, I think there is a sense of predictability, isn't there? And- and- a- and certainly, you- you would go with that in terms of the sort of work that I do and working therapy, there are certain patterns that- that can be predicted, and that's where, you know, your models of therapy develop, because you can predict that if certain things are happening, then th- it might develop into this pattern. And, but actually, while there is predictability, people will always surprise you as well. So, you know, even as I work, uh, with people one-to-one in therapy, no two people are ever the same and- and you can never assume anything, um, because, you know, everybody has that unique story and then u- unique ex- set of experiences that they've been through and their unique set of coping strategies and how they'll then get through that. So, um, uh, I think predictability to a degree, but never assume anything because people, yeah, people will surprise

3. 5:32 – 14:13

   How did a therapist make it onto tiktok?

   1. JSDr Julie Smith5:32

      you.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett5:32

      And how did, uh, a clinical therapist like yourself... Uh, you know what question I'm gonna ask you. Find their way onto TikTok. You've got millions and millions and millions of followers on there.

   3. JSDr Julie Smith5:41

      Yeah.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett5:42

      It's not... I mean, we were saying before we started recording, TikTok is typically a place that you assume 16-year-old kids to be dancing. You don't assume clinical psychologists to be giving mental health advice.

   5. JSDr Julie Smith5:52

      Uh, yeah, absolutely. And that's where, you know, you talk about anomalies and stuff, I guess I have, um, uh, felt like I've been sort of swimming against the tide in my, um, in my chosen career and- and the area that I work in, in that it's usually a very private, um, quiet kind of career choice. You're working with individuals. It's confidential. You work with one person at a time. And...And in, in that sort of area of work, actually very few people are even on social media, um, because you have to protect your, your own privacy and confidentiality agreements and that kind of thing. So, um, to even put stuff on social media felt quite scary for me, because, you know, y- your thought is, "What are my peers gonna think? Is this, you know... What's this gonna cause for me?" But every time that I had someone else come in for therapy who found the educational aspect of it so helpful, I would, I would go home and, and say to my husband, "Why do people have to pay to come and see people like me to find out that bit of information about how their mind works, so that they can deal with their anxiety better, or so that they can, um, you know, function in their relationship better?" You know, there's some, there's a set of kind of knowledge there, and skills, that are taught to people in therapy, but they're not therapy skills, they're life skills, and people can use them every day. I use them every day to help me get through everything life throws at me. And, and I just felt that it was unfair that that knowledge should be kept and hidden away in a therapy room. So, um, you know, my husband, being the person he is, said, "Well, go on then. Do it. You know, make it available, and put something on YouTube or something like that." And so we did. We kind of half-heartedly made a really rubbish YouTube video. And, um, and then at that same time, he discovered TikTok, so he found the app. Someone recommended it to him. He found it. It was full of kind of fun dancing, loads of really cool comedy, and we were sort of scrolling through it, laughing, instantly just, you know, falling down that rabbit hole of scrolling. And, uh, and he said, "Well, you know, go on. Uh, make something, like, for 60 seconds. See what information you can get into it." And I said, "Well, no. You can't, you can't cut it down to that, you know, small amount of time. It'll be impossible. Um, and I'll probably get trolled out of there, because no one is talking about that kind of stuff." There were young people expressing their distress on there and talking about their mental health from a personal perspective, but I couldn't find anyone who was kind of sharing education around it. So, um, reluctantly, you know, got persuaded and had a go, and almost instantly, um, the response was just overwhelming. People were messaging, saying they were checking in every day to see what the next video was, or... You know, and there's this real misconception as well that, that all my followers on there must be this young group of people, and, you know, a lot of the messages I get are from parents and even grandparents who are saying, "Oh, th- this concept you explained was really, really useful. I'm working through it with my daughter or my grandson, and it's really helping, thanks so much." You know, "Where's the next one coming from?" So, I kind of felt like when we started, it was gonna be this one-off thing, like a, "Okay, oh, you know, I should, you know, practice what I preach and have a go," and I assumed that we would kind of delete the, delete the account-

   6. SBSteven Bartlett9:13

      (laughs)

   7. JSDr Julie Smith9:13

      ... pretend it never happened. (laughs) Um, two years later, here we are, kind of three and a half million of us later. So yeah. I mean, it, there was no kind of set game plan for it, but it just felt like the right thing to do it, um, to kind of put that information out there and see if people were interested in it. Um, and it turns out people were quite hungry for that kind of information, you know? People wanted not only to talk about mental health, but they wanted some evidence-based sort of quality tips and knowledge that, that they knew were coming from a, a g- I guess a good place.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett9:47

      Couple of questions there, then. So, the first one is, are you still seeing patients one on one?

   9. JSDr Julie Smith9:53

      Yeah. So I still have a few. I had to stop taking on anyone else new because I was sort of bombarded with requests, and, you know, writing the book and everything has taken up a huge amount of my time, so, um, I've kept that really limited. Um, but, uh, yeah, I kind of still, I still want to keep that going. I'm just, I'm in the process of trying to work out how to manage that around doing such public things.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett10:17

       Yeah.

   11. JSDr Julie Smith10:18

       So, yeah, that's gonna be a real transformation for me.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett10:20

       'Cause tha- that's one of the things I've, I've always sort of contended with when people have asked me if I'd do, like, one-on-one coaching and stuff. My def- my kind of default mindset is, "Well, if I spend an hour, I'd rather make a video that I think can reach millions of people than sit with one person on their own."

   13. JSDr Julie Smith10:34

       Yeah.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett10:34

       So I was wondering what your relationship was with that one-on-one stuff still, 'cause it was still valuable.

   15. JSDr Julie Smith10:37

       Yeah, I mean, in some ways I do miss some of the one-to-one stuff that I do, or did do, and, and so that's why I've kind of held onto some of it. Um, because you just cannot beat being one on one with someone in a room and developing that depth of relationship with someone where that therapy room becomes their sanctuary and, you know, that's an incredible privilege, that kind of work, and I love it. But there is that. There is that sense of, "Okay, I could sit in this room and, you know, work with one person at a time, or I could make a video and share this idea with potentially a couple of million people," which, you know, has become a real passion, and that I, I recognize that it just didn't interest me. The numbers and the, you know, kind of business side of it just didn't really figure for me. It was genuinely just y- the feedback, the messages, and the emails. You know, I was going through them, and, and the thought was, "I can't stop now. I can't, I can't stop doing this. If people are checking in every day to see what the next video is, or, or asking for specific topics because they're genuinely struggling with something, um, if I can help in some small way, then I really should."

   16. SBSteven Bartlett11:55

       So, in terms of that feedback that you're getting from social media, I've come to learn that it's not all great. As in, I'm not saying the feedback isn't all great, but the general, like, stress, and pressure, and expectation, and constant, constant feedback can be detrimental in many ways as well. Talk to me about your relationship with having millions and millions of people that can message you at any time, letting you know whatever they're thinking, and how you process that.

   17. JSDr Julie Smith12:21

       Yeah. Do you know, it's been really tough for me actually, because I, I'm naturally a very...... people following probably wouldn't believe this. I bounce around in my videos like anything. But, um, I'm actually very introverted, shy person. You know, my ideal day is kind of (laughs) at home, alone with a book probably. And so, you know, it, the idea of, of being public and, and being seen by people was not a comfortable one. It's something that I kind of endured for the cause, if you see what I mean, for the idea of, "Oh, this could help someone who's in need." Um, so i- that's something I've had to work through and, and do a lot of kind of practicing what I preach, you know, being uncomfortable for the sake of something that I value or that I believe in. Um, and, and yeah, I mean, I did a video on the, the mental filter, this kind of thought bias that we all have, um, and used the example of, you know, with the kind of comments and, and feedback and stuff like that, that you can have e- a hundred positive comments and you will scroll through them to find the one that's not positive. Even if it's neutral, you know, or, or, or, God forbid, negative, um, because you're, you're built to do that. You're built to look for any signs that this is not okay or that, uh, it's all gonna collapse and everyone's gonna hate you. And, and so actually doing the whole thing has, has made me practice what I preach, because I have to. Because it's not an easy situation to be in, is it? You're vulnerable. When you're putting yourself online or, you know, as much as, as I do, when you're putting yourself out there, um, it's a vulnerable place to be. And, and a lot of people look on and think it's easy and, um, uh, and it's, it's really not. No. I have a newfound respect for everyone who kind of, uh, you know, is brave enough to do that.

4. 14:13 – 23:46

   Dealing with rejection

   1. JSDr Julie Smith14:13

   2. SBSteven Bartlett14:13

      W- what you were describing there, that scrolling through comments looking for the bad one, is something I think we can all relate to. 'Cause I will get 99.9% like great comments and then it'll be, as you say, the one that's either that's critical or that feels personal. It's as if someone's like criticizing something that I've like done, I don't really care. It's when, it's when they are criticizing who I am, I think I find it hardest. And that's why I wanted to understand why that was, and I started doing some reading and some writing about this topic and understanding the nature. If we go back in our like, in our history as humans of rejection and what that used to mean when I was a human, the idea of being like dispa- like kicked out of my tribe-

   3. JSDr Julie Smith14:51

      Yeah.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett14:51

      ... and the threat that, that would pl- put me under if I was removed from my tribe, and this idea of rejection. And really like (clears throat) a lot of rejection f- this is kind of what I came to, came to the conclusion of. When someone says something like that, it's almost like for me it feels like a, a threat of rejection, a threat of being expelled from the, from the, you know, from the tribe or whatever. Um, obviously not. Obviously that is not the truth. But deep within me somewhere, that desire to fit in and, and be accepted by the tribe is still there. So having f- millions of people being able to give me feedback, and some of them seemingly rejecting me from the tribe or saying that I don't fit or they d- whatever, is difficult.

   5. JSDr Julie Smith15:30

      Yeah.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett15:30

      Is that like ... That's a l- a lot of words, but is, does that make any sense?

   7. JSDr Julie Smith15:33

      Yeah, because the feeling comes before the rational thought about it.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett15:36

      Yes.

   9. JSDr Julie Smith15:36

      So, you know, y- your, your body has that reaction before you're able to consider that, you know, this isn't your, um, your only community or this isn't your family or people that are sort of you're dependent on and that kind of thing. So, I think the feeling will always be there and it's always difficult, isn't it? But then you can override that with what comes next. So it's all ab- it's not about never having that feeling. And, and I hate it (laughs) when people kind of say online, you know, "Just, just stop caring what everybody thinks." And that is impossible, because you're built to care what people think of you and, and you probably wouldn't function in a society that well if you didn't care what anybody thought of you. It's about how you then manage it. So when those thoughts come along, um, about, you know, a negative comment, it's what do you do next with what comes up. So yeah, it's really about how you kind of respond to, to the thoughts that come up after.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett16:31

       And is it, is it, in those moments of rejection, is it really like the story we tell ourselves about what that rejection means to us? I'm thinking now more broadly about romantic rejection. My, you know, I'm dating someone, she says, "You're dumped." Like the harm surely isn't in the separation. Surely, for me it's always felt like ... Oh well, I got to the point where I've realized that it was more Steve's subconscious brain is telling himself he's a scumbag and not beautiful and not smart because of this rejection. Is that really where the harm is done, like that self-inflicted self story?

   11. JSDr Julie Smith17:01

       Yeah, so I mean, rejection is difficult for everybody, isn't it? But, but certainly if, if rejection taps into, um, what we'd call a kind of core belief. So if someone grew up with, um, a core belief around being unlovable, for example, could maybe their parents were inconsistent in their care, for example. So they, they s- g- you know, and you don't think about these beliefs consciously all the time, you know. They're not at the forefront of, of your thought processes, but they will influence how you feel and they'll influence how you behave and the choices that you make. And so what happens is when we have a, a core belief that is a sort of damaging one or detrimental one, we develop, um, sort of rules for living around that that help us to keep it at bay. So it might be, you know, if I can just be the perfect, um, business owner and the perfect boyfriend and the perfect dad, then no one will reject me and, and everything will be okay. And so you set yourself these, these rules for living that if ... at some point, inevitably, you break or there's signs that you're not gonna be able to keep up with them. And what that does is when there's signs that you're not gonna keep up with those rules for living, y- you then, it kind of triggers that core belief that comes to the forefront, and that's when you get that rush of kind of psychological distress. Because it's a distressing thing to believe about yourself. And so that's when it can cause people real problems when, when that sort of damaging core belief is being triggered on a regular basis, for example. Maybe because it's a turbulent relationship or whatever the situation is. Um, and that's when you can work not only on the present stuff, but on the core beliefs and, and looking at, at how those are playing out in relationships.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett18:39

       And how do you get to the heart of understanding what your core beliefs are? Because I went through life, and I think I got to about 24 years old without being in a relationship, and when I asked myself what my core beliefs were as it relates to relationships, I realized that they were heavily shaped by watching my parents', like, toxic relationship and this belief that relationships were prison. I th- 'cause my- I, I thought my dad was in prison for my chi- entire childhood. That's what I thought. I thought he was trapped in prison because he was in a relationship with my, with my mother, because they were very, um, argumentative, shall we say.

   13. JSDr Julie Smith19:11

       Yeah.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett19:11

       So, it wasn't until I was 24, and I think because of journaling and writing and really this podcast that I was able to realize that I even thought that, and I was having this, like, avoidant behavioral pattern where the minute I, I would pursue someone romantically and the minute they would accept my advances, I would run for the hills and try and (laughs) dissuade them out of being in a relationship with me, and I had no idea that core belief was in the back of my control center of my mind.

   15. JSDr Julie Smith19:35

       Yeah, absolutely. And there's, there's a really fascinating therapy called CAT therapy actually, so it's cognitive analytic therapy, um, just CAT for short, but that re- that's just a fascinating therapy where it looks at the relationships that you have when you're younger, so, uh, when you're growing up with, with parents or siblings or family, and i- in those relationships, you learn how to behave in the world, right? You learn about, you know, who I am, uh, what to expect from other people, um, and what to expect from the world at large. And then you develop kind of survival strategies or coping strategies in, for example, in a difficult relationship like that. Uh, you learn how to cope with that and you have these kind of safety behaviors! And, and as you grow up, you're in a different situation, right? You're not, um, dependent on parents and stuff like that, but those survival strategies or those safety behaviors continue and they get played out in your adult relationships. And, and I just love that therapy. It's great for looking at the, the patterns and the cycles that people tend to feel stuck in in their relationships and how that reflects those early life experiences that are j- essentially outdated coping strategies. But it's really difficult! You know, if something's been a lifetime of habit, you can't just break that by telling yourself to do that, so it takes time and it takes practice and, and you literally kind of map out the cycle so that you, you learn to a- sort of acknowledge it in hindsight first of all, so you say, "Okay, last week that happened and that happened and yeah, I went round the cycle." And then eventually you've done that enough that you start to recognize it when you're in it, so as you're about to do something you think, "Hang on a minute, I know what this... This is predictable. I know what I'm doing." And in that moment, you then get this chance... This is the beauty of kind of awareness, is you then get this chance to choose whether you go with it, and sometimes you will and you'll go round the cycle again, and sometimes you'll do this other thing that you've already worked out you need to do and you break the cycle and, and then you get the benefits of that. And, and so it's this really kind of long process of sometimes going round the cycle again and then sometimes breaking it and finding this new life that you can create in, in your relationships and stuff like that, so... And it's incredible how life-changing that can be for people.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett21:48

       If someone can't afford to go to CAT therapy or whatever, is there, is there a way at home or within their own life that they can sort of, uh, achieve the same outcome?

   17. JSDr Julie Smith21:58

       I think, um... I don't think it's a replacement for it, but I think definitely, um, uh, y- things like journaling and, and reflecting on experiences and trying to look at patterns of behavior, so, you know, I always find that... I don't know, when I'm with my boyfriend, we argue about this after I do this, and, and then you can literally sort of work it out on paper, just writing things down. What happened? Then what happened next? Then what happened next? How did I feel? How do I think they felt? How did then I feel when they said that? And you're really kind of just going through it. But keep doing that. You know, just doing it once won't necessarily open up everything, but when you keep doing it, you can work out patterns and the themes and... And then when you start to get, you know, a sort of knowledge of that cycle, you can then, you know, begin to look at what's different. But sometimes it's really difficult to just know how to break the cycle. Sometimes that's a really difficult part of therapy for people, is working out, well, where can you break that cycle? Where, where can you exit and do something different and what is that different thing? 'Cause if you knew, right, you would just do it. So, um, it's not easy, and I think... (sighs) You know, maybe it's... Maybe that's another book to write, isn't it? It's talking about that relationship stuff, because it's so important to people. And, and, you know, sometimes having good friendships and, and people that you trust to talk through these things with can help to give you the other perspective. You know, kind of fact checking-

   18. SBSteven Bartlett23:22

       Mm-hmm.

   19. JSDr Julie Smith23:22

       ... some of your own... 'Cause you, when you're in it, it's so hard to see the wood for the trees, isn't it? You're kind of... It's so much easier once you've got stuff down on paper and you're kind of looking at it, you've got that bird's eye view, and that's really the process of therapy. So, if you can, um, recreate any aspects of that with a f- really trusted friend or loved one, then that could be helpful. I don't think it's a replacement for therapy and, and the model and the training, but it's certainly something.

5. 23:46 – 32:11

   The consequences of having a big platform

   1. JSDr Julie Smith23:46

   2. SBSteven Bartlett23:47

      When you grow a big platform very quickly, there's a lot of other sort of, I guess, psychological things to contend with. One of them is imposter syndrome.

   3. JSDr Julie Smith23:54

      Yeah.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett23:54

      One of, one of them is the, um, the, the claim which will be leveled at you, I'm sure, that you got lucky. How do you deal and contend with all of these, these thoughts?

   5. JSDr Julie Smith24:03

      Um, I'd say lucky is pretty hard work, isn't it? You probably know that. (laughs)

   6. SBSteven Bartlett24:07

      (laughs)

   7. JSDr Julie Smith24:07

      Um, yeah. And, and, you know, there's an element of that. I think, you know, there, there's probably a timing thing for me in that, um, you know, this huge pandemic started and lots of people were at home tapping into, um, s- new social media platforms they hadn't before. Um, I think it's been uncomfortable all the way along. I think-

   8. SBSteven Bartlett24:25

      Why?

   9. JSDr Julie Smith24:25

      ... imp- Uh, because it's been new and I've been... It's very public and that's way out of my comfort zone. You know, I hadn't... Um, I'd been in such a kind of small... Well, I live in a small town. I had a small, you know, one-man band private practice. It was just me, and the whole reason for that was so that I could balance it around my children and be the mum I want to be. It was all very kind of organic, and, and suddenly this, this thing started to happen and become a bit of a rollercoaster.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett24:54

       How does it feel-

   11. JSDr Julie Smith24:54

       (sighs)

   12. SBSteven Bartlett24:54

       ... to know that the more successful you become at what you do, the more...... public you're gonna become, to the point where-

   13. JSDr Julie Smith25:00

       Hmm.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett25:00

       ... you might be in the Daily Mail every week.

   15. JSDr Julie Smith25:03

       A- and, and do you know what? I've had quite a few moments, uh, do you know what? I've not even really told anyone this, but I've had quite a few moments along the way, um, where I've really, really questioned, "Do I even want this?" And, and I, and I kind of told myself that as soon as that, all that feedback, nice feedback from genuine people who were saying, "Thank you so much. You know, what's next?" I was kind of waiting for that to stop so that I could stop. (laughs) Because it's really not been easy. You know, I've been... I've got three small children, and it's really, really important to me to be present for them. So I wanted to, uh, keep it as balanced as I could, which has been nearly impossible. So I was getting up at like 5:00 in the morning to make videos for TikTok (laughs) in the dark before my kids got up, and stuff like that. And it's not been... You know, it's not been an easy ride. And so it's kind of... You know, it's been hard work. And I think I kept going because I felt like it was temporary. (laughs)

   16. SBSteven Bartlett25:56

       (laughs) That's right.

   17. JSDr Julie Smith25:57

       I felt like at some point everyone's just gonna think, "Yeah, this is r- boring now, and, and we'll stop." Um, and we would have helped a few people, and that would be great. I mean, maybe you could advise me on that, because you lived that, right?

   18. SBSteven Bartlett26:07

       Well, no, I'm asking you because I'm literally going through the same thing, which is this realization that I've had more recently, especially with the success of the podcast and joining Dragon's Den, that... Um, and then, like, there was, there was a, like a really critical piece written about me the other day. And it's like totally baseless, but it says, it basically implies that my last company was like Guantanamo Bay or something. Um, and I was thinking, "This is, this is going to only continue to get more and more and more, and I'm gonna have to contend with more and more noise, um, as I become more successful at the thing I love doing."

   19. JSDr Julie Smith26:39

       Yeah.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett26:39

       So what do you, what do you do? Do you stop? And I do feel like a sense of mission and cause with what I do as well. So do I stop that, which feels in some degree a little bit selfish maybe, and just focus on like making my life very private. I can go to Bali and buy a big mansion and just chill.

   21. JSDr Julie Smith26:55

       Yeah.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett26:55

       Or do I carry on doing what I'm doing and realize that an unavoidable consequence of it is I have to log online every day, or I have to, you know, open my emails every day and just see so much noise?

   23. JSDr Julie Smith27:07

       Yeah.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett27:08

       Which c- which is difficult, because as you say, I wanna have a relationship. And I noticed specifically this weekend when I was like speaking to lawyers and doing all this stuff because of this article or whatever, that I hadn't spoken to my girlfriend. And I'm like, "The thing that actually matters the most to me, the person that provides me with the most, like, stability and love is the thing..." As you said, the, the most important thing, you say it in your book, is the thing I'm rejecting in... for the sake of noise. That doesn't, like... You know?

   25. JSDr Julie Smith27:34

       Yeah, and I think that's where it almost goes against the grain again, doesn't it? Because we're kind of taught to believe somehow, there's this undercurrent, uh, in our culture that, that you should strive for, you know, um, riches and s- and fame and, and those things, because they'll somehow make everything good. And, and actually, they make things harder a- as well. So, you know, while some people can really enjoy that and they'll really feel that that's where they want to be, e- there's, there isn't this narrative where people say, "It's okay not to," because those people are being quiet and going off, you know, so...

   26. SBSteven Bartlett28:10

       (laughs)

   27. JSDr Julie Smith28:10

       And doing their own thing. So we don't hear that narrative of it's okay not to be extraordinary, or it's okay not to stand out from the crowd, or it's okay to, um, to want a quiet life or a private life. And, and, you know, I'm as much a victim of that as, as anyone else, because, you know, when I'm not wanting certain sort of public things, I question myself, you know? What am I doing? (laughs) Am I... Is this right? You know? And it's often, you know, about your own values, isn't it? And how you want to live. And, and I guess all the time that you're questioning that and reflecting on it and making choices, none of them have to be permanent. There's this idea that, "What if I don't take that opportunity, it's all over."

   28. SBSteven Bartlett28:51

       (laughs)

   29. JSDr Julie Smith28:51

       It's probably not.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett28:52

       Yeah.
6. 32:11 – 39:04

   Having the right values & goals

   1. SBSteven Bartlett32:11

      (paper rustles) One of the things you, you spoke about there is, um, about values, and much of your, you know, much of what you talk about in your book centers around understanding what our real values are and our goals and what we should be aiming for and how to deal with certain situations. Your brand-new book, Why Has Nobody Told Me This Before? which I love by the way, uh, for many reasons. I love it because you don't have to read it all in one sitting.

   2. JSDr Julie Smith32:31

      Yeah.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett32:31

      You can skip to the key parts that are relevant to you. As, as is the case with all your content, it's super inclusive, so it doesn't feel like... I mean, I've got psychology books on my bookshelf over there that are, you know, I have to like, phew, I have to do one page at a time and like have a massage, um-

   4. JSDr Julie Smith32:48

      (laughs)

   5. SBSteven Bartlett32:48

      ... to get through each paragraph because it's difficult. But this is-

   6. JSDr Julie Smith32:50

      (laughs)

   7. SBSteven Bartlett32:50

      ... super inclusive whilst also being incredibly, um, important in its subject matter. Um, so values and goals. What is the difference? What is a value?

   8. JSDr Julie Smith32:59

      Sure. So, um, the way I would talk about sort of values and goals in therapy is really around, um, a goal is something that you, once you achieve it, once you get there, um, it's done. So you know, your goal might be to get through your exams. Okay, exams are over. You passed. Done. A value doesn't finish or end. It's, it's a pathway. If you imagine your life as a journey, for example, it's a path that extends the whole of your life, and it's something that you choose to always stay close to when you can. And I think, you know, life will always take you in different directions. So sometimes life will pull you away from a particular value. But it's really about always evaluating and knowing where that path is so that you can pull back in that direction. So for example, when your, you know, your career starts to take over because it's so busy and then you think, "Oh, I haven't spoken to my girlfriend all week," that's you going, "That path's too far away now. I'm pulling back. I need to head back in this direction 'cause this is important to me." And, and so it's a kind of a, you know, winding path where you, you, you're, you're, sometimes you're pulling away from it and sometimes you're going back towards it. Um, and something that I included in the book was these sort of little values check-ins that I would do and, and we do in therapy where we look at, okay, just look at the different areas of your life. Doesn't have to be rocket science. Doesn't have to be really kind of airy-fairy. It's looking at, okay, what's important to you in your life? You might have family, intimate relationships, health, creativity, you know, lifelong learning, career, contribution, those kinda things. And then you, you could literally kinda split it up into boxes and put in each box words not about... It's, what's really crucial is it's not what happens to you. It's not what you want to happen to you. It's how you want to respond to things, how you want to be in that area of your life, what kind of person you want to be. So let's say you were looking at your, you know, romantic relationships. What kind of boyfriend do I actually want to be, you know? What, what kind of partner do I want to be? What do I wanna represent to that person, and how do I want to, um, come at difficulties? How do I want to sort of respond to problems that we face? And, and you know, that kinda thing. So it's all looking at the attitude that you bring to, to that situation in your life or that area of your life. And you might come up with words that, that then kind of resonate or, you know, maybe, I don't know, in, maybe in your work life, maybe enthusiasm is a word that you just hold close to you, and that becomes one of your values. And so, um, y- you can then, uh, and sort of exercise this in the book is you can almost rate, okay, how important is it to me to be enthusiastic in my work? Maybe it's 10 out of 10. That's really, really important to me. And on that same scale, then how much do I feel like I'm living in line with that this week or today? Uh, two outta 10. I'm pretty tired. Can't even bother today. This job's really boring today, or whatever. And that, so when you, what you've done there is you've looked, you've opened up a discrepancy between, okay, this is really important to you, but you're not living in line with it. Why? What's going on? Not, not in a way that you can then be really self-critical, but as a tool to say, um, "Yeah, my girlfriend's really important to me, but I haven't seen her for four weeks." Why? What's stopping me from jumping on a plane right now? Okay, let's do that. And then, you know, when you start to do those things and, and you're coming back towards your value, the, the sort of rating for how much you're living in line with it would go up. And so doing that kind of exercise is really just, it's a long, long-winded way of saying you can look at what's important to you. You can just do a really quick measure-up of how much am I living in line with it, and what areas of my life do I need to pay attention to because I'm not living in line with it? So it can be kind of quite simple and a fairly quick exercise, really.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett36:41

      I, um, I was actually watching a video last night, and, uh, there was a guy on YouTube. I don't know-

   10. JSDr Julie Smith36:47

       Mm-hmm.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett36:47

       ... how I managed to stumble across it. The video had like 2,000 views. This is not-

   12. JSDr Julie Smith36:50

       (laughs)

   13. SBSteven Bartlett36:50

       ... anybody, anybody would know. But I, he was sat in his car, and I found it really fascinating because (laughs) I don't know whether I should say this or not. But, um, I found it fascinating because he exhibited certain, like, narcissistic delusions of grandeur in talking about what he wanted to become and what he wanted from his life. And, um, it got me thinking that it's quite difficult to understand whether something you say or write down or are aiming for is a value, or if it's just based on like an inherent deep childhood-bourne insecurity. 'Cause if you'd asked me at 18 what my values were, I would've said a million pounds, a Lamborghini. Like I would've, I would've-

   14. JSDr Julie Smith37:24

       Yeah.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett37:24

       ... uh, defaulted to these things because those were the things that would've like, I don't know, scratched my, like...... insecurities, right?

   16. JSDr Julie Smith37:31

       Yeah.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett37:31

       But as I've, as I attained those things and had more chance to reflect on what actually makes me feel good and fulfilled and complete, I would've said family connection, you know-

   18. JSDr Julie Smith37:40

       Yeah.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett37:40

       ... health.

   20. JSDr Julie Smith37:40

       Yeah.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett37:40

       Two very different things, right?

   22. JSDr Julie Smith37:41

       Yeah.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett37:41

       One's caused based, one is just an insecurity. So how do we know the difference?

   24. JSDr Julie Smith37:45

       And, and you don't, right? Because, you know-

   25. SBSteven Bartlett37:47

       Ouch.

   26. JSDr Julie Smith37:48

       (laughs) ... you... (laughs) And it's always a horrible answer-

   27. SBSteven Bartlett37:50

       It's scary.

   28. JSDr Julie Smith37:51

       ... isn't it? But you, you know, maybe you had that aspiration when you were younger, and, and you went with it because it's all you knew at the time, and then you learnt some, you became more wise, and your values shifted slightly. And, and that's the thing, that's why I talk about doing sort of quite regular values check-ins because depending on your life, you know, stage, and what you're doing, your circ- circumstances, your values will change. You know, my values transformed when I had children, and, um, you know, probably sort of flipped them upside down really, and, and that's okay. It was, I could never have known that that would be ... I couldn't have prioritized my children before they were there anyway, you know? And, um, and for example, you might not have been able to know that you would feel differently now. Back then at that age, you didn't have the capacity to do that, you hadn't had the life experience. So it's okay, you know, there isn't this sense of there is this right path, and if you get on it at 17, you'll be all right. You know? The whole process is a learning process, so it's okay to change direction, it's okay to discover, "This is not where I wanna be, but I've learnt something. Here we go, let's change direction, let's go in this direction. And now I've got the knowledge of where I don't wanna be."

7. 39:04 – 40:36

   How do we make meaningful change?

   1. SBSteven Bartlett39:04

      Speaking of changing direction then, a lot of what's written about how we change direction is you've gotta make this like big, grand decision in your life, and then today you've gotta go in that direction as if it was like a 90-degree turn. And this can be quite terrifying for a lot of people because it's not easy to do. You talk about this in the book, you talk about habits and things like that, and how we make change in our life. What have you learned in your, you know, in your experience as a clinical psychologist about how people do actually make meaningful change in direction in their life?

   2. JSDr Julie Smith39:32

      Um, I think something I've learnt is that big, meaningful change is not made, uh, drastically and quickly. You know, sustainable change is made carefully, and there's this process of it's not just action, there is a lot of kind of reflection, and then there's a bit of action, then there's a bit more reflection of like, "We tried that, how was it? You know, do we need to change direction?" You know, and we keep moving. So it's a kind of bit, by bit, by bit, but we greatly underestimate how powerful and sustainable that can be when we do it bit by bit, and, and you know develop habits, for example, and constantly re-evaluate and check in on which direction we wanna go in. Um, so I think something that I've learnt, um, and certainly actually, uh, in my NHS work, for example, the, the type of work that I was doing, um, it took time, you know? I- if someone's really poorly and, and there's a lot to work through, that takes a long time, and that's

8. 40:36 – 42:46

   How do I change my mood?

   1. JSDr Julie Smith40:36

      okay. That's kinda how we work. It takes time to heal and things like that. So, um, I think I learnt to sort of acknowledge that not everything has to be done yesterday.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett40:46

      Um, you, you also talk a lot about in your book about how we can turn bad days into not so bad days, I guess, um, and this relationship which I find really fascinating between the decisions we make, our mood, and our, our like actions and behavior, and how they're all like fundamentally linked.

   3. JSDr Julie Smith41:01

      Mm-hmm.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett41:01

      And I was, I was thinking, um, I- I remember when I was writing my book, having a particular moment where I was in like a bad ... I was in like a not a good mood, and I was trying to understand what ... how to kinda hijack that to get back to a good mood. Do I go for a run? Do I just focus on my actions? Do I have to think my way out of my bad mood? What would you say to all of that?

   5. JSDr Julie Smith41:22

      I think thinking your way out of a bad mood is, is difficult and, and often takes quite a bit of practice around using specific skills and stuff like that. Um, sometimes the quickest way to impact on your mind is through your body, so things like exercise, music, um, using your voice, like singing and stuff like that. Things like that can, can create quite big shifts in the moment, but also human connection. So for example, you know when you ... if you've been, um, you know, kind of pent up and tense, and then, or you've felt unsafe, and then someone hugs you and you burst into tears, and it's that kind of shift of, uh, of emotion. And so, you know, things like human connection, movement, music, you can utilize those to good effect. You know, they ... if they ... Different people are different, and so, you know, one thing will work for one person and something different will work for someone else. You know? I don't know. My husband likes to listen to kind of really like old school New York hip hop-

   6. SBSteven Bartlett42:20

      (laughs)

   7. JSDr Julie Smith42:20

      ... and stuff, and that puts him in a great mood. It puts me in a terrible mood. I hate it. Uh, so it's a kind of ... You know, the ... Everyone has a different, um, experience of things like music or exercise, but if you can understand your own experience, what works for you, then definitely then utilize those to create even small shifts in the moment, because a small shift can just change direction, and then other things can help to kind of move it forward.

9. 42:46 – 45:12

   How important is sleep?

   1. JSDr Julie Smith42:46

   2. SBSteven Bartlett42:46

      What about, what about sleep? How important is sleeping in terms of our mood and mindset?

   3. JSDr Julie Smith42:51

      Oh, so important, so important. And you know, that, that's kind of a battle I've been going on because, because, you know, with this kind of work and the demands of, of, of, you know, creating content, um, alongside having three small children, it's n- ... it hasn't been unusual for me to kinda be up in the night with, with children and then be getting up at 5:00 to make videos before I take them to school, and like, you know, just i- it's not sustainable, that kind of lifestyle. And, but I notice if I have not had enough sleep, um, for, you know, a few days, it will impact on how I feel, and it'll impact on my performance and how effective I am at work, and what I'm doing. Um, and so, you know-You ha- it's something you just have to take seriously. Um, it, I think, and something that, I don't know, in our culture, there's this kinda shift towards, wha- what's the saying? Like, you, you sleep when you die and all that rubbish, you know? That kind of, "Well, you will die sooner if you don't sleep, so," you know, "let's, let's weigh this up." So it's one of those things. It feels like when there's more to be done than can be done, um, it's so tempting all the time to, to ditch on that bit of extra sleep that, that you know would be good for you.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett44:04

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JSDr Julie Smith44:05

      Um, but it's, yeah, I think it's something that we all have to just always remind ourselves you gotta, you gotta come back to it, and you've got to, you've gotta give your body what it needs.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett44:13

      Do you feel like you've got that balance now?

   7. JSDr Julie Smith44:16

      I think it's always, uh, I think it's always a tightrope, isn't it? You know, like, you, you, something will happen, and, and there'll be a late night or an early morning, and that shifts again, and there's no recovery because, you know, children waking up early and stuff. I think while I've got a balance, I hate the idea that I might perpetuate this notion that I've got it right, and that, you know, just do what I do, because I've got this perfect life, and it's absolutely not that way. That is something that I think is detrimental, uh, you know, in kind of social media and things like that that can, can really catch people out, is the idea that you look at someone online, and you assume that they have it all sorted, and that they don't have problems, and that they don't struggle with normal human stuff that we all struggle with. And, and so I've tried to sort of keep that honesty all the way along that, yeah, thes- you know, I mean these are great tools, and they really, really help, but it doesn't stop life throwing stuff at you. It doesn't make you invincible. It do- and I say

10. 45:12 – 48:09

    How to stay motivated

    1. JSDr Julie Smith45:12

       that, say that in the introduction, this isn't the key to a problem-free life. It's an arsenal of tools that you can use to face those problems with that will ensure you can kinda get through it.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett45:22

       Talking about all of that, so, you know, the success you've had and the impact it's had on, you know, your life and having to wake up sometimes at God knows what time to film a TikTok video. Um, one of the things I read about in psychology is this idea that our motivation can start to diminish when something becomes, um, extrinsically motivated. So when some- when you're paid to do something, your motivation to do the task weirdly diminishes, even, uh, you know, even if you enjoyed it before being paid to do so. So have you felt that in your life, that now that TikTok and making videos has become work, the motivation to do it h- is, is shifting at all?

    3. JSDr Julie Smith45:57

       It can do. I think-

    4. SBSteven Bartlett45:58

       Yeah.

    5. JSDr Julie Smith45:58

       ... there's, there's the temptation for it to do that, isn't there, when, when things shift. Um, and that's why I think it's been so important to me, um, to keep it in mind. I had, I think if I didn't have that initial reason for, you know, I wanted to share this, this really good information that's usually locked away in the therapy room, I pro- I, I just wasn't me. So it wasn't, it wasn't, uh, enough of a pull. You know, I didn't have any interest in being kind of public person, that kinda thing. So it wouldn't have been enough t- for me to work that hard on it. Um, and it's, yeah, as long as I keep that, that thought or that value in my mind about, you know, sharing knowledge that can help people with their mental health, then, then that enables me to keep going.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett46:43

       But has it shifted?

    7. JSDr Julie Smith46:46

       Um, what, in, in terms of becoming less motivated?

    8. SBSteven Bartlett46:50

       Like, yeah.

    9. JSDr Julie Smith46:51

       Um-

    10. SBSteven Bartlett46:51

        Or feeling more and more like work?

    11. JSDr Julie Smith46:54

        No. I think there was a period where it felt like just a grind of work, when, um, and not the writing. I loved the writing. But then there was obviously this pressure to keep, you know, putting content out there, and I can't just disappear for six months, and, um, and that pressure felt like, but I think that was a symptom of overload, of just, okay, I've gotta write a book. I've gotta be a mum, and it's lockdown, and we're homeschooling, and, and I've gotta get a video on every day, and, you know, that, that, for me, that's a sign of overload. And that, in turn, influences your motivation in the moment. But I guess I'm aware that motivation is something I can't rely on anyway. It's a feeling, and it comes and goes. So some days, it will feel like a grind, and other days, it will feel really exciting, you know, coming to do this and, and meet you, and that, you know, that stuff's kind of really wonderful. And some days, you know, I'm, I'm in my therapy room on my own with a camera going, "Oh, gotta say something profound now. You know, well, (laughs) find something."

    12. SBSteven Bartlett47:53

        (laughs)

    13. JSDr Julie Smith47:54

        Um, so, you know, uh, and I think it's an awareness of every job has its ups and downs. I can't rely on feeling like it all the time. I have to remember why I started it and the values behind it to keep me going.

11. 48:09 – 51:23

    What is the cure for overload?

    1. JSDr Julie Smith48:09

    2. SBSteven Bartlett48:09

       What if you... So that term overload was interesting 'cause I've never really heard of someone describing it like that. Um, typically, people say things like burnout or whatever else.

    3. JSDr Julie Smith48:16

       Yeah.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett48:17

       What is the, um, what is, I guess, the cause and/or the cure for people that are feeling overloaded? 'Cause I guarantee, like, 95% plus of people listening to this now, especially in the world we live in, will be feeling some sense of relative subjective overload in their lives, including me.

    5. JSDr Julie Smith48:32

       Yeah, and I think we're subjected to these kind of ideals of everything, aren't we? And, you know, um, uh, for, for parents, there's this kind of, um, all these images about what it means to be the ideal parent, depending on what kinda content you're consuming, and then there's these, these ideas of the ideal business person or the ideal author or the ideal social media, you know, whatever. And, and because we're subjected to so many of them, we, we then just overextend it. We're trying to do everything perfectly, and it's impossible, and then we feel terrible, and we feel like we're failing or we're at fault, rather than, um, the culture that says, "You can be anything you want to be." You know, actually, it's okay to decide this is what I want my life to look like, and that's okay, you know? It's just, it's okay for it to be like that, and, and for people to have goals that are smaller than others, you know? It's, uh, um, I think it's... it probably leads to a much more psychologically healthy outcome.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett49:36

       I, I kinda bring that, that back to a point that I mentioned earlier, and I'm probably just asking this for my own interest, but you're, theoretically, you're, you're heading in the direction of maybe having 20, 30, 40 million followers.

    7. JSDr Julie Smith49:51

       Yeah. I don't know. (laughs) Um, I don't know-

    8. SBSteven Bartlett49:55

       And then the demands on your time are gonna be... People are gonna be offering you your own TV show, and they're gonna be asking you to write seven books on a seven-year, on a seven-book deal, and everyone's gonna want you on Loose Women and ITV's Good Morning.

    9. JSDr Julie Smith50:08

       (laughs)

    10. SBSteven Bartlett50:08

        You know, all of these... It's gonna be constant. So how do you... How are you gonna navigate all of that?

    11. JSDr Julie Smith50:15

        Um, probably call you and say, "Stephen, what am I gonna do?" (laughs)

    12. SBSteven Bartlett50:21

        (laughs)

    13. JSDr Julie Smith50:21

        Advise me. Um, I don't, I honestly don't know. And, and, um-

    14. SBSteven Bartlett50:24

        'Cause that is the direction of travel you're going in, right? You're producing more and more content, which is gonna grow your audience even more. Your book's a smash hit, four times number one Sunday Times bestseller. You're going in that direction.

    15. JSDr Julie Smith50:35

        Yeah. And, and I guess, um, in all honesty, my barometer is always my family, so my children. And I will only ever do, um, as much as I can do while I'm being the mom I want to be, I think. And, and I won't always get that right, and I haven't. Along the way, there have been times when I thought, "No, this is too much. I need to pull back," and, um, uh, things like that. So I think, yeah, that's my kinda center point, really. Because that is, you know, where my core values lie, and that's the most important role I have as far as I'm concerned. And so I guess I will always use that as, as the baseline. You know, is this gonna have a detrimental effect on my family or not, um, and what can I do within that? Yeah.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett51:20

        And that's kind of a values filter, I guess-

    17. JSDr Julie Smith51:21

        Yeah.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett51:22

        ... in many respects.

12. 51:23 – 54:32

    The balance of embracing emotions vs ignoring them

    1. SBSteven Bartlett51:23

       The, these feelings we have, these emotions we have, I've, I've always contended with, um... And I think society has a role to play in telling us how to manage o- the emotions we feel when we go through life. You know, on one hand, you have this sentiment where it's like, kinda just shrug it off, ignore it, keep going, which doesn't seem to be possible with like deep emotions. It actually seems to be that you're just compartmentalizing it in the back room and it's gonna erode your brain from subconsciously. And the other one is that, you know, the other narrative we hear is to, when you feel strong emotions, to really like embrace them and to like... But that feels like it can be a bit too consuming, that I might not get out of bed in the morning if I really sit and wallow in my emotions. So what is the balance of embracing emotions or kind of shrugging them off and ignoring them?

    2. JSDr Julie Smith52:06

       Yeah. And it, actually, it's quite sort of complex work when, um, when you look at sort of what happens in the therapy room. Um, you know, there are people who, when they experience emotion, it's quite unsafe for them because the coping strategies that they've had throughout life have been unsafe or dangerous ones. And so, um, you know, we'll never kind of advise people to just, you know, open the floodgates and allow everything in. It's very sort of careful, and, and, um, there's a process of gearing people up with the tools. And I often talk to people about this when, when they're thinking about going to something like a trauma therapy, right? So, um, while that involves going over the trauma, no decent therapist would ever get you to do that without first gearing you up with the tools to be able to cope with the emotion that comes up. So, um, y- for anyone who feels like they, for example, kind of shut down emotionally and, and sort of block it out, y- you want to open up gradually to things, and, and open up gradually to emotions that feel maybe less dangerous or less, um, sort of overwhelming in small ways, in supported ways as well, so that you, you know you can manage it and, and it's not gonna completely, um, be overbearing. So, but I guess on a kinda day-to-day level, lots of people don't even recognize that they're blocking. They just recognize, um, that whenever they've done something at work that's embarrassing and they feel awful, they just go home and crack open the fridge, and they're just looking for anything. Or maybe it's go on Netflix for the next six hours and, and block out the world, or gaming or whatever it is. And, and so often it's hidden in the behavior. People will say, "Yeah, I'm fine with emotion," and, "But I smoke 50 a day." And, you know, it's a kind of, you know, what-

    3. SBSteven Bartlett53:54

       That's so true.

    4. JSDr Julie Smith53:55

       ... what's the function of this and that and the other? And, and it's always about looking at it with curiosity, not judgment, but curiosity. "Why am I doing that? What's the function of that? What's it doing for me?" And, and often it'll be some level of safety around something that's uncomfortable. But it's really key that there's no judgment there because it's something that we all do, it's-

    5. SBSteven Bartlett54:13

       Mm-hmm.

    6. JSDr Julie Smith54:13

       ... it's human. And, and that's because our brains are so brilliant at taking over for us and doing something very quickly that we need to make things better.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett54:24

       To make us comfortable, to make us feel comfortable in some-

    8. JSDr Julie Smith54:26

       Yeah. Yeah.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett54:26

       ... way, even if it's some-

    10. JSDr Julie Smith54:28

        Yeah.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett54:28

        ... destructive medication or something.

    12. JSDr Julie Smith54:31

        Yeah.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett54:31

        Um, on

13. 54:32 – 1:00:41

    The stigma around addressing a situation

    1. SBSteven Bartlett54:32

       that, you know, on that point of we have a behavioral response to some stress or emotion we're feeling and maybe not confronting, I think I did that a lot. When people used to ask me how I dealt with running this big global business, 700 employees around the world, when times got really tough, I mean, on the worst days where there was no money in the bank and payday was today, those kind of days, um, I used to, I used to... I think I used to say on interviews and stuff that I used to come up with all this nonsense about how I dealt with it and how I coped with it. But in hindsight, one of the things I came to learn was the only times I ever got sick or my skin ever got bad were on like a- two days after that, those really high-stress moments. So on the surface, I was kind of shrugging it off and playing it cool. But my body, as the famous book goes, held the score. My body would tell me. Even if my conscious mind wouldn't admit it-

    2. JSDr Julie Smith55:25

       Yeah.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett55:25

       ... my body would tell me. And then even more recently, I've noticed that in certain situations where I'm pretending everything is fine, I'll notice maybe my eating habits or my other habits get a little bit more extreme and out of control. And I, and I always thought I was invincible.I always thought I was some tough guy. And I think people followed me... Well, (laughs) I hope not. But I think they kind of, they saw me as that, as being this kind of like, you know, uh, mentally s- perfect, you know, resilient character. But even I've noticed that in my behavior. And it's been so interesting to just pay attention to it. It's sometimes difficult, 'cause if, especially if you do e- e- engage in these kind of coping mechanisms, shall we say, a lot, you might find them harder to notice. But for me, I don't. So when I see any shift in my behavior, like, I- I- I remember j- the, going through a pattern where I was just, I was eating crap again. And I thought, "Why am I doing this? Oh, shit, yeah." Because of that thing you've not addressed that's playing on your mind every time you wake up.

    4. JSDr Julie Smith56:18

       Yeah.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett56:19

       And then my skin tells me straightaway. I get some, like, breakout on my skin. Um, men are the worst at this. I mean it, so they say. They're the worst at talking about how they feel-

    6. JSDr Julie Smith56:29

       (laughs)

    7. SBSteven Bartlett56:29

       ... 'cause of the stigmas and stuff.

    8. JSDr Julie Smith56:31

       Yeah, certainly. I mean, about 75% of my followers are female.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett56:35

       Mm-hmm.

    10. JSDr Julie Smith56:36

        But saying that, of the, of the m- male followers that I have, they're among some of the most engaged, and ask questions, and, um, you know, come up with new topics, and, and respond really positively in comments and things. And, and so I think there is a shift in the right direction. And I think, I think social media's had a lot to do with it, actually. It's enabled people to start having a conversation that they wouldn't dream of having face-to-face with people.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett57:02

        Mm-hmm.

    12. JSDr Julie Smith57:02

        Um, and certainly, I've recognized that in, when I was just working in my private practice. I, I wanted to do it around the family, so I, I couldn't do it all, so I kinda left the NHS. And I, I thought, "I'll just work in, like, school hours, and I'll manage it around," that kinda thing. So, um, I thought I would have to advertise, and, and I never did. And that's because, while therapy's a really private thing when you're really struggling, when it works, and you get better, and then you're doing fine, and it finishes, and you go off about your life, and then you come across someone who's struggling. And they go, "That really helped me. Try that."

    13. SBSteven Bartlett57:39

        Mm-hmm.

    14. JSDr Julie Smith57:39

        And so, actually, all of my work was based on word of mouth. And, and I think that's happening more and more, that people, once they struggle, work out a way to get through it, then believe in the, in the tools that they learned, whatever they were, they're willing to share that. And, and, because they don't wanna see other people go through the same thing.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett57:59

        Mm-hmm.

    16. JSDr Julie Smith57:59

        And I think that's a bit of the shift of that stigma, um, that, that people are going, "Oh, yeah, I went through that."

    17. SBSteven Bartlett58:07

        Mm-hmm.

    18. JSDr Julie Smith58:07

        "Or something similar. Go and try that. It really helps."

    19. SBSteven Bartlett58:10

        And if people are sat at home and there's something that they know they haven't addressed that's playing on their mind, that they're thinking about a lot, often, and trying to just kinda compartmentalize and not adre-... What would you say to those people? H- uh, like, because, you know, their, they might be seeing the, the behavioral symptoms of not addressing that thing. What would you s-... How do we, how do we get out of the back room and p- prevent it from causing us behavioral self-harm?

    20. JSDr Julie Smith58:36

        Well, I guess, you know, uh, some people will go to, to therapy, because they'll have access to that. Others won't even consider it or have access to it, for whatever reason. Um, and I think whatever the situation, human contact and human connection i- is, is everything. If you can find someone that you trust to talk to... And even, let's say, worst-case scenario, you don't have anyone you can trust to talk to, or you feel so awful about this particular situation that you can't bear to talk to anyone, write it down. Y- just use words. Use art, whatever it is. Try and get to grips with what, what could possibly be going on here? Start reflecting on experiences. N- not with judgment, but just looking at what's happening. What happens here? What happens before that? What, what leads up to it? That's a lot of what happens in therapy, actually, is, you know, people come in with a feeling, "Oh, I've felt this awful thing." And then, and then we'll look at, "Okay, what led up to that? Let's go back a week, and let's work to it." And, um, you know, "What made you vulnerable to that?" And then, equally, "What came after? What did you do? Did it make things worse? Did it help?" A lot of those things that, that we end up doing habitually are the things that work instantly. And they're addictive because they work instantly, right? It's going to the fridge or grabbing the wine, or whatever it is that, th- they're addictive because they give us instant relief. But in the long term, they keep us stuck. So they're the things that then get us in that cycle of the next time you have that feeling, you feel even more need for that, that safety behavior or that blocking behavior, because it worked so quickly last time. And, and actually, the things that tend to work in the long term are hardest in the moment, like sitting with it, and feeling it, and using skills to get yourself through it. So it's not an easy ride.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:24

        Mm-hmm.

    22. JSDr Julie Smith1:00:24

        (laughs) ............................ Janelle (laughs) .

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:26

        (laughs) I was expecting the 30-second, uh, hack to-

    24. JSDr Julie Smith1:00:31

        (laughs)

    25. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:31

        (laughs) ... the 30-second secret. That's what this title's gonna be of this video. It's gonna be the 30-second secret to get yourself out of any bad situation, and everyone will click it-

    26. JSDr Julie Smith1:00:37

        (laughs)

    27. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:38

        ... and they'll realize that there's a lot of nuance.

    28. JSDr Julie Smith1:00:40

        (laughs)

    29. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:40

        Um,

14. 1:00:41 – 1:03:21

    How do you build confidence

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:41

       another thing that I get asked all the time, and I'm sure you get asked about all the time, and something you wrote about in chapter 19 of your book, is this topic of confidence. It seems to be at the very heart and core of, um, a lot of issues we do, we- we have in our lives, the lack of confidence.

    2. JSDr Julie Smith1:00:54

       Yeah.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:55

       Um, but also it seems to be the cause of a lot of good things that happen to us if we have confidence. So, uh, quite... People always ask me when I do Q&As and stuff, they say, "How do you build confidence?" And there was this really lovely quote in your book that, um, I really, really resonated with that said, "Confidence cannot grow if we are never willing to be without it." So when people ask you that question, Dr. Julie Smith, what do you say? How do you build your confidence?

    4. JSDr Julie Smith1:01:17

       Yeah, so I did a video on this recently actually, where we... Uh, I don't know what we were thinking, but we used kind of balloons with a tube that went between the balloons. And I had this idea that, um, if, if one of those balloons was confidence and the other one was vulnerability, if you're only ever willing to be with your confidence, so if you're only ever willing to be in the situations where you feel confident, um, y- then your... It can't grow. It can't, it can't sort of grow beyond that. Let's say, um, in the pandemic, being at home-... feel, you know, you're confident at home, you feel comfortable at home. But being outside, you feel vulnerable, and so it's really hard to go to the supermarket, and it's really hard to go out to a bar with friends now. And if you're not willing to be without that confident feeling that you have when you're at home, then your confidence can't grow. It's not gonna grow sitting at home. And, and that's where in therapy we talk about, you know, the most important stuff is the stuff you do in between sessions in your real life. Um, and so for anyone, you know, I often say to people, "If there's something that, that you really want to master but it makes you nervous, do it as much as you possibly can in, in manageable doses. Because the thing that you do every day will become your comfort zone, so it will gradually become easier, or you'll become more confident at your ability to do it." Um, but your, the way that your brain works is through repetition, so the more you do something, the more your brain will get better at automating it for you.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:43

       Y- you talk about that same sort of, um, the importance of repetition as it relates to anxiety as well, and I guess maybe this is the answer to the question we were asking at the start about how to deal with all of this noise. (laughs) Maybe it's just more, dealing, doing more of it.

    6. JSDr Julie Smith1:02:55

       Y- yeah.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:55

       Maybe.

    8. JSDr Julie Smith1:02:55

       Yeah.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:55

       'Cause it's getting used to the feedback and what it means and what it says about us, and, and how to cope with it.

    10. JSDr Julie Smith1:03:01

        Uh, yeah, y- you kind of, you build up coping strategies for it over time, don't you? The more you do it, um, it's probably a mix of that and making, um, clear choices based on your values rather than your feelings about how much of it you want to have.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:20

        How important is

15. 1:03:21 – 1:07:32

    How important is it to not make decisions in high emotion moments?

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:21

       it to make decisions not based on how you feel right now? (laughs)

    2. JSDr Julie Smith1:03:25

       Um, it's okay to do that sometimes, right? We all do it because we're human. But what happens i- a lot of people will come to therapy when they've lost touch with their values for some reason, maybe life has sort of pulled them in a different direction, and they're not totally aware of that. They're just aware that everything just feels kind of meaningless, or, "I just feel lost, and I'm not sure why I don't feel the way I want to." And often when we, when we act based on how we want to feel now or how we don't want to feel now, that's that short-term stuff that will keep us stuck in the long term. Um, whereas if you a- act based on values, you can live a life of meaning. It won't always be comfortable, but it will mean something to you.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:12

       And I bes- I guess when you're in the storm of a situation, the emotional storm of, I don't know, you've just found out that you've been cheated on or something's happened and you're, you fall into that red ph- you know, haze of just rage and jealousy, whatever it might be, the, the question, I guess, from what you've said, we should be asking ourselves is like, "What are my values, and how would, um, how do I behave in line with my deeply held values in this situation, irrespective of the fact emotion is telling me to go and-"

    4. JSDr Julie Smith1:04:42

       Yeah.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:43

       "... run over that person with my car?"

    6. JSDr Julie Smith1:04:45

       Y- yeah, absolutely. Emotions get such a bad rap, don't they? Because they kind of, um, uh, you know, we're talking about things like jealousy, and people say, "You know, I n- I just could never get jealous 'cause it's an awful emotion," or something like that. And, and actually, the emotion isn't the thing to judge. The emotion is information. It's your brain's best guess at what might be going on around you, and your brain sometimes gets it right and sometimes gets it wrong, and it's your job to work that out. And so to c- to look at emotion with curiosity, like, "Wow, I'm feeling really envious. What's that about? How can I r- you know, how can I work around this and, and work that out, and how do I want to then respond that, to that? How, i- if I look back on this really difficult moment in a year's time and I feel proud of how I dealt with it, how would I need to deal with it to feel that way?" Not easy to do in the moment 'cause these moments happen quite quickly sometimes, um, and that's okay to make mistakes and then, and then move on. That's probably a different subject. But d- the emotions get judged, but if we can look at emotions with curiosity instead, which is a lot of what happens in therapy, actually, is being able to, to notice whatever's in the room, sitting with it, looking at it with curiosity rather than judgment.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:58

       That's one of the things I've come to learn from doing this podcast is, uh, is this idea that we are not our thoughts.

    8. JSDr Julie Smith1:06:02

       Yeah.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:02

       And in fact, we can hold them out in front of us and an- analyze them for validity, but we don't have to, like, directly associate or identify with all of our thoughts. Because we g- I think we all go through life believing that the things that are s- being said in our minds are us saying them and are a reflection of exactly who we are, and that's incredibly dangerous, especially in high-emotional situations, right?

    10. JSDr Julie Smith1:06:22

        Yeah, causes people loads of problems when, um, when we think that the thoughts that pop into our heads say something about who we are, or, you know, that, that we chose them in some way. And, and that's where this whole kind of, there's a lot of stuff online, isn't there, about, you know, only positive vibes and only think positive thoughts. And, and if you do that, you're setting yourself up to feel like a failure because it's not the way the human mind works, and, uh, thoughts will pop into your head. And that's your brain offering up ideas, opinions, judgments, narratives, well, you know, memories, all that kinda thing, and it's what you do next with it, you know? And, and that's where people can really struggle with intrusive thoughts, for example. So they'll have a thought that feels bizarre to them or feels, um, aversive in some way, and then judge themselves for having had the thought and try desperately not to have it again. And when you try not to have a thought, you're already having it because you're thinking, "Don't think about whatever it is." And, and so, you know, you're just setting yourself up to fail if you think, if you're trying to control what thoughts come into your head. But if you allow them all to be there and then you choose consciously what to do with them next or how much time to spend with each one, then yeah. It's closer to winning.

16. 1:07:32 – 1:12:36

    Building self esteem by having a good relationship with failure

    1. JSDr Julie Smith1:07:32

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:32

       This is a two-part question, but have you found that people who have lower self-esteem have, um, uh, a more unhealthy relationship with failure? And, um, then my second question to that is how does one go about building their self-esteem? Is it evidence? Is it evidence-based, our self-esteem? Like, even if the evidence is wrong, is it based on subjective evidence that we've acquired from our experiences?

    3. JSDr Julie Smith1:07:53

       Well, a- do you know, um, there's been a lot more controversy around the, the, the idea of self-esteem more recently i- in the field, and there's-And, you know, self-esteem is based on this idea of it's your sort of evaluation of yourself. And so, there was a lot of work done, like, in schools and stuff years ago, around getting kids to think of what they were good at, and what they could achieve, and, and their strengths and what they liked about themselves. And, and, uh, you know, high self-esteem c- can be, uh, n- lovely in that sense. But it's not always useful, uh, depending on what situation you're in. So, um, it's not necessarily useful to think, "I'm great," in a situation where I'm not g- doing great. You have to be honest with yourself. And so, for me, a much, um, more helpful way of looking at it is to- to- to look at it in terms of self-compassion. So, your self-esteem can be low. But that doesn't mean that, uh, you know, the story is over and- and things are awful for you. If you- you can have low self-esteem, and if you then treat yourself with compassion, you're essentially doing what's best for you. And my kids are young. But let's say I had, um, you know, teenage kids and one of them wasn't doing well in school, and so didn't want to get up for school in the morning, because they felt like they were just, you know, a failure at school. So, maybe their self-esteem around school was low. If we went with that, then we would say, "Okay, well, let's leave school then. Let's- let's- let's have a day off. Let's- let's go with, you know... Um, let's indulge this." Whereas self-compassion, or showing compassion to someone in that way would mean, okay, what's the best thing in this scenario? So, what's gonna be most helpful to you and your future in this, is probably working out what's going wrong and getting to school and- and tackling the problem, right? So, um, so yeah, self-esteem can be, um, a sort of tricky subject really, in that people put a lot into it, but it's one part of a bigger equation, I think.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:53

       Mm-hmm. I guess it kind of links back to the point about confidence, which is, is our self-esteem based on a bunch of evidence we've kind of collected from our experiences about the world? So, I might have low self-esteem as it relates to going on dates because of some childhood rejections or whatever, and I- I took that as evidence that I am unattractive, and I've held that as part of my self-story for the last 15 years, for example. Um, I used to think, as you talk a lot about in your book, that as many people do, and as a lot of, like, books have kind of promoted, that you could kinda just wake up in the morning and look yourself in the mirror and say, "I'm a rock star. I'm gonna be a millionaire, da-da-da. You are beautiful, you love yourself." And then you could walk out into your day and just be that person. But c- so clearly, and you'll know this from your, you know, experience and many y- years of helping people, that it just doesn't work. And I can say that something to someone, they can read my quote on Instagram, and I just absolutely know it's never gonna work, because there's some kind of evidence that they've accumulated over their life that is way stronger and opposes nice fluffy words.

    5. JSDr Julie Smith1:10:57

       Yeah. Yeah.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:57

       Um, you know, obviously words provide very little evidence for anything other than a prompt. I don't know.

    7. JSDr Julie Smith1:11:02

       Yeah, absolutely. So your brain works like a scientist with evidence through action. So, you know, if you want to start to feel better about yourself, essentially the best way to do that is through action and doing things that f- not f- not kind of flood the system and make you feel really vulnerable, but something that feels a challenge, but manageable, and then you get this little kind of step up. And then something else that's a challenge and manageable, and you get this step up. But yeah. Certainly with... You know, words are powerful, but, um, things like affirmations I talk about in the book, about how, uh, not to completely throw them out, but to be sure about how you're using affirmations. So, if someone already feels lovable and they read an affirmation that says, "I'm lovable," it- it'll probably make them feel quite good for a minute and they can soak that in and- and enjoy that, and it'll be kind of short-lived impact. If someone has, uh, doesn't believe that, if someone has core beliefs that they're not lovable, and they're trying to repeat, "I am lovable," um, it can almost be detrimental because it sets up this internal argument where y- your mind also chips in with the reasons that you're not.

Episode duration: 1:36:09