World Leading Sex Therapist: How To Avoid Having Bad Sex: Kate Moyle | E73

1. 0:00 – 1:34

   Intro

   1. KMKate Moyle0:00

      ... and it's the question everyone wants the answer to, right? (laughs)

   2. SBSteven Bartlett0:02

      Yeah, right.

   3. KMKate Moyle0:02

      Um, it's-

   4. SBSteven Bartlett0:04

      What is the single biggest killer of relationships in the modern age?

   5. NANarrator0:17

      (music)

   6. SBSteven Bartlett0:17

      Let's talk about sex. Today's podcast is very, very different, but incredibly, incredibly important. Today, I'm sitting down with Kate Moyle, who is a sex therapist and a relationship therapist, to talk about some of the taboo topics which we don't normally discuss. Things like erectile dysfunction, sexual inadequacies, issues we all have in our relationships and sex lives. The single biggest killer of relationships in 2021. Sexual anxiety. How to keep a sexual relationship exciting, and everything in between. I'm gonna share some very personal sexual stories that I've never shared before. Some of the things that have gone well, and some of the problems that I've had that have caused relationships that have meant the world to me to end. This is a very, very honest, open podcast today. You know, this is why this is called the Diary of a CEO. And Kate is the perfect person to put them to. So, I think you're gonna enjoy this conversation. I certainly did. I feel very vulnerable sharing some of these stories with you. But as I always say, just keep it to yourself. So without further ado, this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

   7. NANarrator1:28

      (music)

   8. SBSteven Bartlett1:32

      Sex. I think, I

2. 1:34 – 16:51

   My sex partner did not like sex

   1. SBSteven Bartlett1:34

      think it's fair to say that everybody has some kind of challenge with sex, at least some point, uh, uh, you know, at least at some point within their life. And I am no different. In fact, my last relationship, which was a very, I thought, I, I, uh, genuinely at one point thought that was gonna be my wife. Um, the reason that relationship broke down was because of a sexual issue and a sexual issue that showed up about seven or eight months into the relationship. And, um, long story short, I know this isn't a therapy session but it kind of is as well, um, at some point, seven, eight months into our relationship, she told me that she didn't like having sex. And I didn't know what that meant. And as a guy that's never experienced that in my life, um, I read into it probably in a, the wrong way. But it def- it definitely made me insecure. I was like, "What? You don't like having sex? How is that possible?" And I thought that was some kind of, um, condemnation on me. I thought that was something negative towards me or something that I was doing wrong. And I tried various things. I tried to, to be a bit more and just list- you know, listen a little bit more to what she wanted and how she wanted it. And then it, you know, it, it, it progressively got to a point where I was getting in bed and I was shitting myself-

   2. KMKate Moyle2:50

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett2:50

      ... because you don't wanna... Once you get reject- I've never been like, I've never gone to have sex with someone in my life and been rejected in that way, and so you get in bed and you don't wanna even ask them for sex because you might take an L, and you don't wanna take that L. And then how, how the hell am I meant to get an erection as a guy when I'm that fucking scared of, of rejection? And eventually, long story short, we're in, um, we're away one time and the same issue happened, and she, we were having sex and I cle- I was looking at her thinking she clearly isn't enjoying this at all. And we stopped, she started crying, she said, um, "I've got a problem." Um, she said like, uh, you know, "I just don't en- enjoy sex. I need to, like, a- address it." I said to her, "Do you, do you wanna talk about it?" She said, "I'm not comfortable talking about sex with you," even though we'd been in a relationship for a year. And I left, and then I broke up with her. And I do regret breaking up with her. Because, um, I did so maybe too flippantly.

   4. KMKate Moyle3:44

      Mm-hmm.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett3:44

      And I didn't understand it, and I didn't think it was fixable, and I didn't know how to fix it, and, yeah, sorry for my brain, you know, my (laughs) dumping that on you, but good place to start.

   6. KMKate Moyle3:53

      No, I think, and, you know, so much of what you've just said, there's so many points there that, you know, I hear all the time, so difficulties with desire, struggles with communication, struggles with knowing like where to start in terms of talking about it, anxiety, you know, all of these points-

   7. SBSteven Bartlett4:10

      Mm-hmm.

   8. KMKate Moyle4:11

      ... which can kind of get in the bedroom with us or be in bed with us. And we just don't know how we're meant to address them, we don't know what we're meant to do about them, and we all feel that sense of, "What am I doing wrong here?" Or, "What's wrong with me? Do I have a problem? Am I broken?" You know, all of these phrases, and actually working with all of the information that you've just given me, you know, as an example, we can kind of target or work with each of those problems in an individual way which isn't terrifying for people, which doesn't create more anxiety, which doesn't damage self-esteem. But we don't have those conversations in a bigger, more normalizing way.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett4:53

      Yeah.

   10. KMKate Moyle4:53

       And I think one of the biggest things that I talk about is this idea that sex, like everything else across our lives, has good days, bad days, average days, variability, but we expect there to be this constant, and we expect it to be protected from everything else that we have going on in our lives, and that just isn't the case. But-

   11. SBSteven Bartlett5:12

       And somewhat automatically, right? Like, we kind of expect it to take care of itself.

   12. KMKate Moyle5:15

       Yeah. And relationships as well. We kind of expect that, you know, once they're good, they're always good, that they shouldn't falter, that we shouldn't have to work at them, that they shouldn't struggle. And I think that there's such a problem with that as a basic foundation message around sex and relationships.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett5:36

       How would you reframe that then? Well, how do I reframe my thinking in order to make sure that I'm... I guess that is a reframing of my thinking. If I think that this thing isn't gonna take care of itself and it needs to be worked on like everything else in my life, I guess that's the answer to keeping it exciting?

   14. KMKate Moyle5:51

       Yeah, I mean, I think that there's just a normalizing of the fact that our sex lives and our relationships are in the context of us. They're not isolated, they're not protected, they don't have their own kind of special area where they aren't impacted by-... how we feel about ourselves, stress, anxiety, our health, our mental health. You know, physically what's going on for us, um, psychologically what's going on for us. But why don't we just give ourselves a break and be like, "Do you know what? We're not perfect or good or great at everything else we do all the time, so why would we be here?" I don't think ... You know, I think as professionals we often talk about, like, why aren't we applying the logic that we apply everywhere else in our lives-

   15. SBSteven Bartlett6:32

       Hmm.

   16. KMKate Moyle6:33

       ... to this- this part of our lives?

   17. SBSteven Bartlett6:35

       And in that particular case with me and my- this- this particular person, um, she turned to me, I remember we were away one time, and she said to me, "You know, there's loads of people that are like me that don't have, like, a high libido or whatever, and I have just never encountered these people in my experiences." So I thought, "Oh, that's rubbish." Was she right?

   18. KMKate Moyle6:54

       Yes.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett6:55

       Yeah?

   20. KMKate Moyle6:55

       She was.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett6:56

       And how right is she?

   22. KMKate Moyle6:57

       Very right. And, you know, we understand that, you know, this is a huge part of the conversation around sex lives at the moment and sexual wellness at the moment is this idea about desire. Desire's not a fixed concept that we're born with. We're not gonna given or holding a set amount. It's not like we kind of have an amount and we, like, use it up. It is context dependent, it's responsive, and we understand that it changes. But actually how we can change that within kind of take power of our own, I suppose, or change that within the context that we're in, how we can feel in control of that is based in almost how we define it or how we understand it ourselves. And there's a huge problem with just thinking, "Okay, well I had it. Now I don't have it in the same way anymore, so what's wrong with me?" Or, "What's broken?" Or, "What changed?" Or, "What's not working here?" Rather than, "If I reframe my understanding and my thinking about this, it makes a lot more sense and it takes the pressure off. And when the pressure's off, then I can work with this in a more pleasure-focused, enjoyable way rather than an anxiety-provoking and stressful way."

   23. SBSteven Bartlett8:10

       What should I have done? So the first time she turns to me, she says, "Steve, I'm just not that into this." Because it- what- what it was is we were in bed, and we're away on holiday, and I, like, you know, just I don't know what I do, whatever I do to- to let someone know that I wanna have sex. I don't know, stroke their arm or whatever. (laughs) I did whatever I do, and she was just like, "No." And what should I have done then? 'Cause, you know, I think a lot of people would take that as a bit of an L, and I certainly did. I was like, "What?" I was- and I was angry as well. Not, like, visibly angry. Not, like, you know, hitting with a pillow or anything. But I was like, I turn- I remember turning away and thinking, "Oh, fuck her," you know, like, 'cause I'd never experienced that before.

   24. KMKate Moyle8:48

       Mm-hmm.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett8:48

       I'd never experienced that, like ... It is a form of rejection. It's like a- a form of s- it's a kick in the self-esteem. What should I have done?

   26. KMKate Moyle8:57

       Well, I think, you know, I can't talk to what was going on-

   27. SBSteven Bartlett8:59

       Yeah, yeah.

   28. KMKate Moyle8:59

       ... for you two, like, kind of in- in that moment then, but, you know, the- the biggest problem that couples in situations like that have is assumption. So as you said, like, "This is a kick in the tooth for me. Like, that hurts. I feel rejected," so we internalize. And actually the best way for us to deal with something like that is to try and explain, to try and move away from assumption to explanation, to understanding. Because actually if we can have a conversation which opens it up and, you know, we- you hear sex and ex relationship experts talk about communication being, you know, the kind of biggest pillar of sexual wellness or sexual wellbeing. And assumption kind of- and the gap between expectations and reality is actually the biggest place that we have a lot of these problems, and I think that it feels like, you know, that's a good example of that happening.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett9:56

       Fast-forward four months, uh, i- e- the- the same sort of issue happened, and she turned to me. And this is when I thought it was completely over, is she said to me, "I'm not comfortable with talking to you about sex," right? And we'd been together for a year, and I thought, "Well, if we can't talk about it, and I don't really understand the issue, and you're not willing to talk about it, then we are fucked." And I thought- and that's when I left. I left that country, um, soon after, and I broke up with her maybe, like, I- I don't know two, three weeks later, because I thought if we can't talk about it then w- how do we fix the situation?

   30. KMKate Moyle10:30

       Mm-hmm.
3. 16:51 – 19:46

   How common is low libido? And what are the causes?

   1. SBSteven Bartlett16:51

      anomaly. But how, how common is low libido, and, and also, what are the c- what are the typical causes of someone having a low libido?

   2. KMKate Moyle17:00

      I think really common, and I think, you know, like so much of this stuff, we don't have huge and huge amounts of, at least up to date, like, sex research. So, you know, it's something that people are really trying to kind of develop in this space. But what we understand when we think about desire... So we've got desire and we've got arousal. So arousal, the body's physical ability to kind of prepare for sex, the desire, the want to be sexual. And what we understand is that it typically changes across relationships. And what feels really difficult about it is that at the start of relationships when everything is new and exciting, we're getting to know each other, we're exploring, it feels like desire is very high. We're kind of leaning into that because it's a way of getting to know each other, a way of connecting with that person. And it's kind of, what we understand is, it's triggered, I suppose, a lot because a lot of the situations we find ourselves in are novel, are-

   3. SBSteven Bartlett17:57

      Mm-hmm.

   4. KMKate Moyle17:58

      ... kind of tuning in towards that area of our brain that likes the new things, that likes the excitement. And we have that sense of wanting to get closer to that person, wanting to get to know them. Now-... also what we see, particularly this is with a relationship focus, is there's like exchange of kind of like novelty, newness, the unknown, exploration for like routine, security, safety, getting to know someone. So we kind of see these things switching out almost.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett18:24

      Mm-hmm.

   6. KMKate Moyle18:24

      And so it's just actually that as we get kind of more used to each other, there are the less of those kind of triggering, like exciting moments, which are where desire can tend to thrive. And what we need to do is perhaps just slightly more consciously or with a bit more of an effort put in the time to create those spaces. Now chuck in, I mean, you know, the year we found ourselves in where no one's had any kind of personal space or independence or ability to go away and come back together, kind of change of context. But technology, the kind of, well third and fourth if there's two people in the relationship wheels-

   7. SBSteven Bartlett19:00

      (laughs)

   8. KMKate Moyle19:00

      ... that are constantly taking our attention, kind of demanding us, you know, distracting us. So we're missing signals from our partners, we're missing those kind of, I suppose, quality time moments. We're constantly being notified or we're distracted. And actually then it's harder for us to give each other our full attention, to kind of sit down and focus on each other, to have the things that promote connection, eye contact, touch. We're constantly kind of looking around and connecting, I suppose, with everyone apart from the person actually that we're with. It creates a barrier.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett19:35

      And so how do, you know, you get five, 10, 15, 20 years into a relationship, um, and you've started to get secure and things are predictable. How do you... This is probably

4. 19:46 – 30:56

   How do we keep our sex lives exciting and interesting?

   1. SBSteven Bartlett19:46

      the most popular question I'm sure you get, which is like, how do you keep it fresh?

   2. KMKate Moyle19:49

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett19:50

      What advice would you give me to keep my sex life with a partner I've been with for X amount of years still fresh, exciting and, uh, you know, exploratory?

   4. KMKate Moyle19:58

      Um, yeah, I think it's, I mean, it's the question everyone wants the answer to, right? (laughs)

   5. SBSteven Bartlett20:02

      Yeah. Right.

   6. KMKate Moyle20:02

      Um, it's, it is about A, I suppose, first thing, acknowledging that it might be different to how it used to be. So again, one of the, I think biggest hurdles people can get kind of tripped over on is it's not the same as it used to be or it changed. Now why does that mean it's worse? You know, actually perhaps the quality of the sex that people might be having might be better-

   7. SBSteven Bartlett20:29

      Mm-hmm.

   8. KMKate Moyle20:29

      ... because they know each other better, they understand each other's bodies better, they feel more in tune with each other. So it's understanding that you might be in a different phase or stage, and that's okay. It doesn't have to be, you know, that famous phrase, the honeymoon period that kind of everybody quotes or goes back to. So I think that is one thing, and I think actually kind of carving out the time and the space and the effort and not seeing that as a bad thing, not seeing that as problematic that we have to be a bit more conscious of that part of our relationships is a huge, huge factor. Because what the kind of common narrative we see in like society I suppose is if I have to make an effort for this, then there must be something wrong with that because sex should be spontaneous, should be something that just happens.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett21:20

      That's what it says in the movies.

   10. KMKate Moyle21:21

       (laughs)

   11. SBSteven Bartlett21:22

       (laughs)

   12. KMKate Moyle21:23

       Well, which is part of the problem, right? Because that's one of the most easily accessible visual versions of sex that we have. We don't see into other people's sex lives in the same way. Now what we do see is social media or pictures of couples or images of couples or... and we make assumptions about them. We make assumptions about they look happy, bet they have great sex.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett21:47

       Yeah, in porn it's just like the gardener's like outside-

   14. KMKate Moyle21:49

       (laughs)

   15. SBSteven Bartlett21:49

       ... and then he like comes in and the husband's away and then like it's just per- boom, perfect.

   16. KMKate Moyle21:54

       Mm-hmm.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett21:54

       Lasts an hour, everyone looks like they're having a great time. (laughs)

   18. KMKate Moyle21:57

       But one of the, one of the best phrases that I heard and, you know, um, is trying to learn about sex from porn is like learning to drive from watching The Fast and the Furious.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett22:06

       (laughs)

   20. KMKate Moyle22:07

       And it's one of the things that I go back to.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett22:08

       So true.

   22. KMKate Moyle22:08

       I wish I knew who said it, and if you know, please-

   23. SBSteven Bartlett22:10

       Just claim it.

   24. KMKate Moyle22:11

       ... tell me so you can claim it.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett22:12

       It's fine, just claim it.

   26. KMKate Moyle22:12

       Um, but porn wasn't designed as an educational tool.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett22:18

       Yeah.

   28. KMKate Moyle22:18

       But a lot of people have used it as one, and that's again-

   29. SBSteven Bartlett22:21

       Oh, I mean like every man ever.

   30. KMKate Moyle22:22

       (laughs)
5. 30:56 – 35:10

   What is asexual?

   1. SBSteven Bartlett30:56

      because I've got this one friend, and I'm sorry to just rinse one of my friends here.

   2. KMKate Moyle30:59

      I've got this one friend. (laughs)

   3. SBSteven Bartlett31:00

      Yeah, this is the problem with being friends with me, you always appear in the podcast if you've got any slight, like, peculiarity about you. Um, and like, I feel like all of my friends have, have been mentioned in this podcast at least once. They just don't know where they're being mentioned.

   4. KMKate Moyle31:11

      (laughs)

   5. SBSteven Bartlett31:13

      But I've ... (laughs) But I've got this one friend who ... He's a guy, and he ... I've known him maybe 10 years, and I've, I don't think he's ever had sex. And he's maybe 27, 28 years old or whatever, and I don't believe he's ever had sex.

   6. KMKate Moyle31:26

      Mm-hmm.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett31:26

      I've never ha- I've never seen him in a relationship. He do- he doesn't talk to girls, um, at all, or guys for that matter. Um, and I don't ... It, it's just so unusual because in our, in our friendship group we talk about sex a lot, so we're always talking about, you know, who he's sleeping with and various things. And we've basically just learned to just not have the conversation with him, or when he's there ... You know, if we're just like joking with each other as friends, we would never joke with him because it's just this big question mark and none of us know the answer. Um, and I think my conclusion has bec- been maybe he's just asexual, if that's a thing.

   8. KMKate Moyle32:02

      It is a thing.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett32:03

      And what is that thing? And what ... And if you ... I'm sure you've heard about this before, right? (laughs) What is ... what's going on? (laughs)

   10. KMKate Moyle32:09

       Well, I mean, like, we- we don't know what's going on for that person. But, you know, asexuality is, is some ... is an identity, you know, like people who don't experience sexual attraction. And what that also doesn't mean ... So we have asexuality and aromanticism. So those are two different concepts, so what we can see is that people can have successful relationships and be asexual because they can have connection and friendship and intimacy. And we can see that people who, um, are ... So we can understand that it's not a kind of like pairing necessarily. And something I also talk about is we can have intimacy without sex and sex without intimacy. Now, what ... A group that I've also worked with is lots of people who have such bad sexual anxiety, and this is in no way me saying what's going on for your friend, but that, that limits them in sexually exploring or taking their sex life to where they want to go or dating or seeing people. Because what it can feel a bit like is if we get on the ladder of, for example, meeting someone or dating, then we get closer towards the source of our anxiety, which might be sex. And I think that people who haven't had sexual experiences, and I suppose bear in mind you're only viewing this from your perspective rather than speaking to the person-

   11. SBSteven Bartlett33:26

       Mm-hmm.

   12. KMKate Moyle33:26

       ... that you've been speaking to, um, is that, that kind of ... It can feel like a snowball effect of-

   13. SBSteven Bartlett33:34

       Yeah.

   14. KMKate Moyle33:34

       ... and, you know, something that I talk a lot about in therapy with people that I'm working with is this snowball effect of, "Okay, well, the older I get, the more I feel that this is a worry or the more I feel other people will judge me or the more I feel that I won't match up to what's expected of me or that p- I will get kind of found out." And I think that these anxieties around sex are also because what we assume is sexuality in people, so we kind of assume everyone's sexually active. It goes back to that point about feeling isolated or alone in our experience, "Everybody else is doing it, so what's wrong with me?"

   15. SBSteven Bartlett34:11

       Mm-hmm.

   16. KMKate Moyle34:11

       And that the problem we have when it comes to sex is we can't know with people until we check it out. We can't know until we ... We're judging someone's inside world based on what we see from the outside, and actually what we know with sex is that they don't always match up. There's no way of really knowing until we, for example, you know, sit down with a therapist and unpack it or sit down with a friend or a family member or whoever that is we share, you know, a partner that conversation with.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett34:43

       I think there's also like ... I was just thinking then about there's also this, like, wider philosophical question of, like, what is the purpose of sex? Because if you see sex as being, you know, just to ejaculate, then, you know, you might encounter a bunch of issues there because the, the role that s- s- sex is playing for your partner might be a completely different one. So, I guess at first you have to understand what role sex plays in relationships, uh, to, to your partner but also to yourself.

   18. KMKate Moyle35:09

       Mm-hmm.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett35:09

       Like,

6. 35:10 – 42:19

   What are the motivations for sex?

   1. SBSteven Bartlett35:10

      is there ... What ... How would you define the purpose or the role of sex? What is it? Why, why do we do it and what's it for?

   2. KMKate Moyle35:15

      We're gonna make a sex, sexual therapist of you yet.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett35:17

      Oh, here we go. Here we go.

   4. KMKate Moyle35:18

      (laughs) I'll be having my job in a minute.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett35:19

      Yeah, I know. You'll see tomorrow on the

   6. NANarrator35:20

      Instagram page.

   7. KMKate Moyle35:21

      (laughs)

   8. SBSteven Bartlett35:21

      It's like, "Sex with Steve." It's like-

   9. KMKate Moyle35:23

      (laughs)

   10. SBSteven Bartlett35:24

       ... it's just everything you've said.

   11. KMKate Moyle35:25

       (laughs)

   12. SBSteven Bartlett35:25

       I'm just, like, reselling it.

   13. KMKate Moyle35:26

       Um, so one of my favorite pieces of research, and anyone who's listened to my podcast or any of the interviews and stuff I know is gonna be so bored of hearing me bang on about this, is a paper called Why Humans Have Sex. Um, and it was done in 2007, and it identified 237 reasons for why humans have sex.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett35:43

       Yeah, we don't have that kind of time unfortunately.

   15. KMKate Moyle35:44

       (laughs)

   16. SBSteven Bartlett35:46

       Or our next question politically. No, I'm joking.

   17. KMKate Moyle35:48

       Uh, um, so the ... It's just this understanding of, like, the motivations for why people have sex, and there is such a wide breadth of those. And that might be, um, you know, my fave- my favorite one from that study is, um, because I was cold, because I wanted to get warm.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett36:05

       What? (laughs)

   19. KMKate Moyle36:05

       But we can understand that, you know, it might be because I want an orgasm, because my partner looked hot, because, um, I wanted to feel close to them, because I wanted to show them I loved them, because, because, because, because. So, the meaning of sex goes be- so beyond the what of what we're doing. But we are so focused on the what all the time.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett36:27

       Mm-hmm.

   21. KMKate Moyle36:27

       And then we get so tangled up in everything that's kind of psychologically going on for us. And I think that, you know, sometimes we're thinking about the why, you know, what does it represent in our relationship if we're in a relationship? What does it represent to us if we're single? What does it represent to us if actually the sexual relationship we have is just with ourselves? You know, I think that-Thinking about that is such a big part of us understanding ourselves sexually.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett36:54

       There's definitely emotional elements but there's also, like, a physical, uh, prehistoric, maybe evolutionary role that sex plays, right? And has that been somewhat lost upon us now? Like, 'cause my body, my body, you know, the chemicals in my body will start tickling me and telling me that I'm horny, and then, uh, it, you know, that will drive me into action. Uh, you know? I, I feel like the, the role, the sort of prehistoric, evolutionary role of sex has been lost upon us a little bit, especially now that, you know, we have s- all this contraception and we can swerve having kids, so I think it's become a bit of a s- sport for many people.

   23. KMKate Moyle37:29

       Well, sex is about pleasure, isn't it?

   24. SBSteven Bartlett37:31

       I don't know. You tell me. Uh- (laughs)

   25. KMKate Moyle37:35

       (laughs) Um, well, you know, I think-

   26. SBSteven Bartlett37:35

       Is it?

   27. KMKate Moyle37:36

       ... you know, well, what we see is that the majority of the reasons that people have sex are not to do with procreation.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett37:43

       Yeah.

   29. KMKate Moyle37:44

       And also, the, the problem is, I think something you kind of said earlier, um, was it's so goal... It can be so goal-orientated. Now, again, this is where so many people struggle with sex because if sex is goal-orientated, and as you said, like, the goal is to orgasm or to ejaculate or to finish, then what happens if that doesn't happen? We feel like we've failed.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett38:13

       Yeah.
7. 42:19 – 45:24

   Who are your clients seeking advice?

   1. KMKate Moyle42:19

      pleasure.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett42:20

      Who are your, who are your clients? Who, who comes to you with the, the sex issues and challenges the most?

   3. KMKate Moyle42:28

      Normal people with normal problems, you know, everyday people-

   4. SBSteven Bartlett42:31

      Genders? Genders?

   5. KMKate Moyle42:31

      ... for everyday problems. Um, genders. You know, both men and women. I work with both couples and individuals. I have a lot of younger clients. So a lot of my clients are kind of in that sub 45 age bra- age bracket, but I lo- work with a lot of people in their kind of early 20s, and I think that their early 20s, kind of 30s, but also there's...There's a couple of things that are going on. One is that therapy has become less, less taboo-

   6. SBSteven Bartlett42:57

      Mm-hmm.

   7. KMKate Moyle42:57

      ... in itself, and sex much less taboo, and we have this kind of corner of therapy which is psychosexual therapy where I think people recognize that it now can be a solution or that sexual problems aren't just medical, that actually there can be something psychological or emotional going on. And I think that the idea of accessing help for this stuff now has become much more normalized, which is brilliant, I think, you know, and much needed. And there are some amazing, amazing sexual experts and sexual therapists in this country who, you know, I hope are really being, and I know are b- really being used by people to help them improve this part of their lives. And I think that, again, a part of it is any other aspect of our life we would go and see a doctor-

   8. SBSteven Bartlett43:47

      Mmm.

   9. KMKate Moyle43:47

      ... or go and see a physio or go and see a nutritionist or whatever it is, you know, if another part, if a part of our body wasn't working, we would access help for it without feeling embarrassed.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett43:59

       Mmm.

   11. KMKate Moyle43:59

       You know, if we'd injured our knee-

   12. SBSteven Bartlett44:00

       Mmm.

   13. KMKate Moyle44:01

       ... we wouldn't feel embarrassed about going to ask someone about that. But why, when it comes to sex, do we feel that we shouldn't access the help and then the longer we're struggling with that, the more of a problem that becomes because we don't just have the original problem, but how we think and feel about it.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett44:18

       But is there like a, is there like an age range where people are more likely to go and see a sexual therapist?

   15. KMKate Moyle44:27

       No, I don't think there is. Then I think that-

   16. SBSteven Bartlett44:29

       So you think it's evenly distributed from like 20 to 80?

   17. KMKate Moyle44:34

       Yeah.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett44:34

       Really?

   19. KMKate Moyle44:34

       I mean, and I think, you know, again it's the bit about life stages, isn't it? You know, what are people looking to explore at different stages? We see, for example, people might go after a cancer diagnosis or cancer treatment or, for example, around menopause or, um, that there are certain health conditions that impact sexuality or, you know, common side effect of a lot of anti-anxiety medications and antidepressants are an impact on sex lives. Or it might be that someone is starting their sexual experiences or they've had a relationship where sex has been a problem and they don't want to carry that on into their next relationship. I think that it's about understanding like what has brought that person to therapy at that time is a big part of, for me as a therapist anyway, kind of exploring what's going on for that person, what's the trigger for dealing with it now.

8. 45:24 – 46:59

   Polygamy

   1. KMKate Moyle45:24

   2. SBSteven Bartlett45:24

      Polygamy. Um, do you have a lot of people come to you t- with, in polygamous relationships?

   3. KMKate Moyle45:31

      So you mean like polyamory, like multi-partner-

   4. SBSteven Bartlett45:33

      Yeah like multi, multi-partner relationships.

   5. KMKate Moyle45:34

      ... kind of?

   6. SBSteven Bartlett45:34

      And what are the issues typically that, um, uh, you'd see with, yeah, polyamorous, polygamous relationships?

   7. KMKate Moyle45:41

      Yeah, I think that it's something that people have a lot of questions about.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett45:45

      Yeah.

   9. KMKate Moyle45:45

      Um, it's something that, you know, I've talked about on my podcast because it's what people are curious about, um, because it's also a breaking away from our kind of heteronormative, like mono-normative model-

   10. SBSteven Bartlett45:59

       Mmm.

   11. KMKate Moyle45:59

       ... of relationships. And I think the big questions that people have are, "How do we do this? You know, how do we navigate this? How do we manage it?" And that's about working out what the rules are for those people, you know, how do they hold ... What are the rules for them that work for them? How do they understand the rules, you know, rules around things like disclosure, rules around things like how much detail do we go into, how do we manage this? But actually communication for lots of those relationships is really good because they have to be really good in order to manage that different style of being or, you know, also just the practicalities of there being more than two partners in a relationship.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett46:44

       I've always wondered if it would cause a lot more problems, but I guess you've answered it there, it's about setting, setting clear rules and having effective communication. Um, my, my next, and my next question again, which I was really excited to ask you was like what's the... And this is a super hard question, so just, you know-

   13. KMKate Moyle46:58

       Get ready.

9. 46:59 – 51:41

   What are the most common misconceptions about the opposite sex

   1. KMKate Moyle46:59

   2. SBSteven Bartlett46:59

      Yeah. Uh, what are the, what are the things that men don't un- typically don't understand about women when it comes to sex and vice versa?

   3. KMKate Moyle47:07

      Oh.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett47:08

      It's a hard question, isn't it?

   5. KMKate Moyle47:09

      It is a hard question-

   6. SBSteven Bartlett47:09

      I was just thinking, I was thinking because I know men are super naïve and we watch a ce- we're exposed to a certain type of media and content and then we like rush into the bedroom thinking that, I don't know, our partners want to be, I don't know, tied up or dominated or whatever else. And then from the other perspective, you know, when you speak to a woman about sex and what she's looking for, there's obviously... She's experienced a certain type of media but she also is, I think, typically, again, we're being super binary here-

   7. KMKate Moyle47:36

      Mmm.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett47:37

      ... um, typically a woman is, is, is, um, has a slightly different expectation from the man, from my experiences anyway.

   9. KMKate Moyle47:47

      I think part of the problem in that is that binary approach-

   10. SBSteven Bartlett47:52

       Yeah.

   11. KMKate Moyle47:52

       ... is that... If there's something that I would want everyone to understand it's that we can be different but we are also so similar-

   12. SBSteven Bartlett47:58

       Mm-hmm.

   13. KMKate Moyle48:00

       ... um, you know, and like this idea about like performance when it comes to sex is hugely detrimental to everyone. Um, and again, probably like what is one of the biggest things I want everyone to think about is the assumptions. You know, what are the assumptions that we're making about each other based on gender norms and expectations, based on historical messages?

   14. SBSteven Bartlett48:24

       Mm-hmm.

   15. KMKate Moyle48:25

       How do we break away from them? And it might be that that's a conversation between those two people and that's the best way of doing it. But also there's, you know, all of these kind of so many of these ideas about sex are so steeped in history but we've never asked them, we've never had them challenged. So an assumption being, you know, a really historical message that we hear all the time, and it's something I hear all the time when I'm talking to people about like myths, you know, what are the sexual myths or what are the sexual rules that you think are kind of applicable to your sex life? A really common one is that men initiate sex.... like, men are the initiators of sex and women are the responders.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett49:01

       Mm-hmm.

   17. KMKate Moyle49:02

       Now, how does that fit people then when they're like, "Oh, but that's not how it works for us"? Or, you know, a, for example, male partner, if we're talking about hetero norm- you know, heterosexual relationships, who is less confident and a female partner who is more confident, and so actually it's the other way around.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett49:22

       Mm-hmm.

   19. KMKate Moyle49:22

       But then they're thinking, "Okay, but this isn't what we think everyone else is doing, so maybe there's a problem here," when there isn't, because that's what's working for them.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett49:33

       And do you see big distinctions between the issues that heterosexual and, and homosexual relationships have?

   21. KMKate Moyle49:40

       I think that what same sex relationships don't battle with as much is the gender assumptions, the gender narratives, the gender norms, that kind of idea of, like, men do this and women do this. But, you know, there are also kind of every relationship struggles in some way with that dynamic of we're two individuals-

   22. SBSteven Bartlett50:04

       Mm-hmm.

   23. KMKate Moyle50:04

       ... how do we work on our differences and our similarities together? That interrelational part which is what happens between us, you know, how, what are our triggers, what, how do we kind of, what makes us both anxious or what makes us both feel secure or what makes us both feel closer and also navigating that. You know, that, that's really the battle that all couples have.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett50:29

       Again, super naive question, but I'm sure it's one of the most popular questions you get asked which is, like, is there a healthy amount of times for a couple to have sex per week or whatever? I used Fiver once a month before they became a sponsor on this podcast. And since they've become a, a sponsor on this podcast and I've delved into what the site does and how all the services work and the, the vast array of things that you can achieve on Fiver using freelancers around the world, I swear on this dog's life, Pablo, my dog here who sat on my lap if you can't see, I swear on his life that I've used Fiver at least once a week for the last three months. We've built so many websites, we've designed so many decks, we've had, um, video clips edited, we've had subtitles produced. If you haven't checked out Fiver before, hit the link in the bio, fiver.com/ceo, go to the, the website, check it out. And every single time I, I do this podcast, one person who DMs me with a service from Fiver that they need doing for their business, for their podcast, for whatever project they're working on, I will pay for that service to be done for you. So find a service on Fiver that you, you want done, send me a message, and one person every week will have that service paid for by me.

10. 51:41 – 56:27

    How many times a week should we be having sex

    1. SBSteven Bartlett51:41

       Super naive question, but I'm sure it's one of the most popular questions you get asked which is, like, is there a healthy amount of times for a couple to have sex per week or whatever? And, you know, one would assume that changes over time. Right? Because I think, you know (laughs) , just judging by my relationships, it start, we start like fucking energizer bunny rabbits and then-

    2. KMKate Moyle52:02

       (laughs)

    3. SBSteven Bartlett52:02

       ... you know, life happens. (laughs)

    4. KMKate Moyle52:05

       (laughs)

    5. SBSteven Bartlett52:05

       But is there, you know, and I hate these questions because they're, again, they're so, like, un-nuanced and so, like, narrow, but is there a, an average amount of times that couples... you would, you know, if you had to answer this question and not swerve it, in this for the sake of nuance, what would the answer be?

    6. KMKate Moyle52:23

       I would like to know what you think the answer is.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett52:26

       I think (sighs) a- a- again, context, like I'm, I'm gonna go into nuance in here, but context matters. Like, if you live on opposite sides of the world, then obviously-

    8. KMKate Moyle52:34

       Mm-hmm.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett52:34

       ... there's, there's barriers, but if you're living in the same hou- if you're cohabiting, living in the same house, I'd think, like, at least twice a week.

    10. KMKate Moyle52:41

        Mm-hmm.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett52:42

        You know? Once on the weekend, Tuesday.

    12. KMKate Moyle52:45

        (laughs)

    13. SBSteven Bartlett52:45

        I don't know.

    14. KMKate Moyle52:47

        But where, okay, so where do you think, um, that I dare if twice a week would comes from?

    15. SBSteven Bartlett52:53

        Just looking at my schedule. (laughs)

    16. KMKate Moyle52:56

        (laughs)

    17. SBSteven Bartlett52:56

        Just like...

    18. KMKate Moyle52:57

        Wait, cause then-

    19. SBSteven Bartlett52:58

        Or like where can I find time? Probably like once in the week and then- (laughs)

    20. KMKate Moyle53:02

        (laughs)

    21. SBSteven Bartlett53:02

        ... and then on the weekends I have a bit more time, so, um, yeah. But I mean, it obviously changes over time. I feel like I probably have sex every night, but if I, you know, but just energy levels and yeah.

    22. KMKate Moyle53:15

        Mm-hmm.

    23. SBSteven Bartlett53:15

        What's the answer then?

    24. KMKate Moyle53:16

        So someone I, um, interviewed talked about the amount of sex we have is a red herring. So the kind of regularity of sex doesn't determine, like, the satisfaction of it or the kind of pleasure of it or the enjoyment of it. And I think what it feels like we've been trying to do is find an objective way of measuring sex. So it's this idea of, okay, well, we're all trying to find the answer to sex, like, how to be good at sex, like, what that looks like, how to know where we pitch ourselves against everyone else. And regularity is one of the only kind of objective measures we have of that, so it's the one that we kind of all lean into or we want-

    25. SBSteven Bartlett53:59

        Yeah.

    26. KMKate Moyle53:59

        ... to know the answer to. Whereas what I would say is I don't think we do have an idea of I don't know what kind of modern, like, surveys say there's a big survey that's done, um, kind of every few years, but I haven't actually seen the results of that one yet. But-

    27. SBSteven Bartlett54:14

        What about the monkeys? How often do they do it?

    28. KMKate Moyle54:16

        (laughs)

    29. SBSteven Bartlett54:16

        I feel like they, we're like 99% orangutans.

    30. KMKate Moyle54:17

        I haven't asked them. (laughs)
11. 56:27 – 1:02:57

    Practicalities of sex

    1. SBSteven Bartlett56:29

       I tend to think, especially when it comes to, like, vaginal penetration, that... it's like a hand and a glove, and the hand and the glove didn't match. And again, I genuinely thought that I could have spent the rest of my life with this person, but I saw that as a, like, insurmountable object, like my penis didn't suit her vagina, and I thought, "We- well, I can't change, you know, can't change this." Um, yeah. Is this something that people come to you about?

    2. KMKate Moyle57:03

       Mm-hmm.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett57:04

       Often they talk about, like, the-

    4. KMKate Moyle57:06

       Practicalities?

    5. SBSteven Bartlett57:07

       ... the practicalities.

    6. KMKate Moyle57:08

       Mm-hmm.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett57:08

       Like the hand and the glove.

    8. KMKate Moyle57:10

       Yeah. I think it is. And, you know, there are, for example, like, conditions that mean that people can't have sex for numerous reasons, so like sexual dysfunctions-

    9. SBSteven Bartlett57:21

       Mm-hmm.

    10. KMKate Moyle57:21

        ... or, you know, particularly for women, there is a condition called vaginismus, which is where there's an involuntary contracting of the PC muscles, the pelvic floor muscles, where they're unable to have sex-

    11. SBSteven Bartlett57:31

        Mm-hmm.

    12. KMKate Moyle57:31

        ... and that we think affects about one in 500 women. In no way am I saying that's necessarily-

    13. SBSteven Bartlett57:35

        Sure.

    14. KMKate Moyle57:35

        ... what was happening here. But, you know, we also know that, that it's about how we work together as couples, how we work with bodies, what would make things more helpful, how we can look for kind of practical advice. But it's about understanding like, okay, how do we help ourselves here rather than, again, that assumption of like, something's going wrong.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett57:58

        Mm-hmm. 'Cause it made me believe in this, like, idea of like there's a physical compatibility to sex as well, not just like a, a desire compatibility or like, you know, an ex- an experimentation compatibility, but there's like a physical, um, compatibility as well to having, like, good sex-

    16. KMKate Moyle58:15

        Mm-hmm.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett58:16

        ... where you can just, like, physically not be compatible.

    18. KMKate Moyle58:20

        Mm-hmm. But I suppose it's then a wh- how do you, if you want to, like, explore working around a roadblock, you know, how do you kind of-

    19. SBSteven Bartlett58:31

        Because that's something that's so hard to talk about.

    20. KMKate Moyle58:33

        ... build your sexual... Mm-hmm.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett58:33

        Like, I could never bring my... I could talk about the, um, libido issue with my partner, but I could never tell that partner that I wasn't... that I was basically turned off by our lack of physical compatibility. I could never mention it. So I ended up, the en- the relationships, I, we, I tried multiple times to, like, fix it in various ways, and I just couldn't bring myself to talk about it because I didn't wanna hurt the person, I didn't wanna say something that might hurt them and stay with them forever, so I, I ended the relationship on the grounds of something else. But that was fundamentally the issue. I've actually only had two relationships in my life where, like, sexual partners in my life that ended purely because of that. But yeah.

    22. KMKate Moyle59:16

        Mm-hmm. And I think it's so hard again, isn't it? Because we just don't know how to tackle these, these topics. As you say, like, how do we manage talking about something or exploring something that we just have no idea where even to start?

    23. SBSteven Bartlett59:33

        And I don't wanna offend the person, which is, that must be, it must be a huge thing in the work that you do-

    24. KMKate Moyle59:37

        Mm-hmm.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett59:37

        ... like not wanting to offend your partner because as you said, it's such a sensitive topic, and I don't know how I could have approached that situation without offending the person.

    26. KMKate Moyle59:46

        Mm-hmm. And I think that it's the fear of judgment, like the fear of offending, the fear of hurting our partners, the fear of us not being able to go back once we kind of... It feels a bit like Pandora's box for some people-

    27. SBSteven Bartlett59:56

        Exactly.

    28. KMKate Moyle59:56

        ... like this idea of talking about sex in a relationship. You know, like, if I open this up, like, how do we close it? Or I think a lot of people have the fear of, "If I open this up, then every time we have sex-"

    29. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:10

        Yeah.

    30. KMKate Moyle1:00:10

        "... we're both gonna be thinking about this-"
12. 1:02:57 – 1:10:31

    How to give constructive feedback about sex?

    1. KMKate Moyle1:02:57

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:57

       How does one give their partner good, positive, constructive feedback? Do you know what I mean? Like is there like a, a, a-

    3. KMKate Moyle1:03:04

       Yeah.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:04

       ...'Cause I'm sure there's, I was thinking then, I'm sure there's so many people listening to this that are in relationships that would like their sex to be slightly different.

    5. KMKate Moyle1:03:13

       Mm.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:14

       And they, they probably, in the same way that I was anxious about approaching it with my ex-ex-ex-ex-girlfriend, um, what is the best way to approach these sensitive self-esteem-attached topics with your partner?

    7. KMKate Moyle1:03:27

       Not in the moment when you're having sex.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:29

       Okay, interesting.

    9. KMKate Moyle1:03:30

       So not just kind of like in bed like just before, because also what you don't want to do is, you know, kind of create like a sen- a further sense of like stress or anxiety like in that sexual space.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:41

        Mm-hmm.

    11. KMKate Moyle1:03:42

        So, what I always talk to people about is like leading with a positive, you know, like, "I really love our relationship, like I'm loving what we're doing, but maybe there's something we can work on here," or, "How can we do this better?" Or so leading with a positive, you know, that affirmation because if someone comes at you and, um, you know, we're often really sensitive to criticism also in our intimate relationships-

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:04

        Yeah, of course.

    13. KMKate Moyle1:04:05

        ... and this isn't good enough or you're not doing this or, our immediate response is defensive or attacking.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:13

        Mm.

    15. KMKate Moyle1:04:13

        We're not open to hearing what they have to say. We're already like shut down before they've even got there. So, kind of approaching it with like that positive framework or like connecting framework or open framework, and also, "Let's work on this together. This is a shared venture, something that we want to do together, some, you know, something for us to think about, like how can we go about this?" Because what can also happen is we isolate the problem in one partner-

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:40

        Yeah.

    17. KMKate Moyle1:04:40

        ... when there are two of us there.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:43

        Yeah. I guess, I guess a, another sort of attach to that would be just telling them what you, you like as opposed to what you don't like. So it's just like the same outcome but different framing. So it's like, "Oh, I like when you blindfold me," or, "I don't like when you don't blindf-" You know what I mean?

    19. KMKate Moyle1:04:56

        Mm-hmm.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:56

        I'm just making it, I, I, pa- my, some of my sort of sexual partners that, uh, have given me positive feedback in the past have done so by telling me what they like-

    21. KMKate Moyle1:05:06

        Mm-hmm.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:06

        ... more of.

    23. KMKate Moyle1:05:07

        'Cause then we can lean into that a bit more.

    24. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:08

        Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

    25. KMKate Moyle1:05:10

        And we all like to be told we're doing a good job.

    26. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:12

        Good, yeah.

    27. KMKate Moyle1:05:12

        We all like to be affirmed. We all like to be-

    28. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:14

        Yeah, especially in sex.

    29. KMKate Moyle1:05:15

        Mm-hmm.

    30. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:16

        Yeah.
13. 1:10:31 – 1:14:20

    Is falling out of attraction with your partner normal

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:31

       how much of an issue that, like, two people changing and falling out of attraction with each other is, um, prevalent in the work that you do and the p- and the people that, you know, come to you for therapy and for advice.

    2. KMKate Moyle1:10:44

       I think it is. It's not probably the most prevalent thing I deal with, but also what you're basing that on is an assumption that that's not something that can be worked at.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:53

       Yeah.

    4. KMKate Moyle1:10:53

       It's not something that people accept when they are in a relationship with each other, or that they... You know, I think it goes back to that relationships moving in stages and phases bit as well.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:11:05

       Mm-hmm.

    6. KMKate Moyle1:11:05

       And I think there's, that's that fear of, like, things not always staying the same. Whereas, actually, what I would say is if we accept that things don't always stay the same, then we can change and work with that and accept it and improve it or adapt. You know, as humans, we're really, really adaptable. But we want to feel encouraged in that rather than, I suppose, kind of put off or challenged by the fact that we need to.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:11:32

       In the world we live in now, there's just this incredible, like, per- pers- perception of choice, I'd say.

    8. KMKate Moyle1:11:38

       Mm-hmm.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:11:38

       Like, moreso than when my grandparents were around. I imagine their dating, their sort of circle of possible matches extended to the, like, the size of their, like, street or village.

    10. KMKate Moyle1:11:45

        Didn't have Tinder.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:11:46

        Yeah, exactly. They didn't have Tinder or Instagram. But now in my relationships, if, like, if it's not going well, I've got apparently a gazillion people right here that are perfect. They're all filtered. And I think a c- you know, 32,000 of them just like my photo.

    12. KMKate Moyle1:12:02

        (laughs)

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:03

        So if I lose attraction with my partner, in the world we live in now where we've got this huge sort of per- perceived amount of choice-

    14. KMKate Moyle1:12:10

        Mm-hmm.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:11

        ... and accessibility, just one swipe-

    16. KMKate Moyle1:12:13

        Mm-hmm.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:13

        ... you know, it must make holding relationships together at times when they hit, you know, rocks more difficult than ever before, no?

    18. KMKate Moyle1:12:21

        Yeah, I think that there are often ideas that, like, the grass is always greener. But equally, we understand that relationships take work.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:30

        Mm-hmm.

    20. KMKate Moyle1:12:31

        And I think, you know, we, we've seen a, a breakdown of norms. We've seen that, you know, divorce rates are at an all-time high, but it's not the same stigma that it used to be, that kind of people changing their models of relationships or changing relationships is not kind of such a, a big thing. But also something that I think is important to say is just because a relationship has ended doesn't mean that in itself it wasn't successful, and I think that's another thing that we need to, sort of like, to reframe. You know, people can be in a relationship for 10 years and it ends. That doesn't mean that relationship failed or was a failure.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:07

        Mm-hmm.

    22. KMKate Moyle1:13:07

        It might have been for that person at that time.

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:11

        This is part of the issue, in my view, with marriage. Because marriage, you say, "'Til death do us part." But we all know that if there's, the only constant is change, we're all gonna change, so how can you...... honestly make a commitment that you're gonna stay with this person, or why would you want to, until death, knowing that you're both gonna change in various ways that are yet to be seen?

    24. KMKate Moyle1:13:33

        But can't you also change together in a positive way?

    25. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:36

        You can. Like, I think, I think people are moving, they can move, if you think about it, it's like two parallel lines.

    26. KMKate Moyle1:13:43

        Mm-hmm.

    27. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:43

        They can go, they could be slightly tilted one degree, uh, to the, the right, which means that in 10 years time, they'll be too far apart. Or they could be slight- one degree to the left, which means that in 10 years time, they'll be closer together.

    28. KMKate Moyle1:13:55

        Mm-hmm.

    29. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:55

        Um, or they could be perfectly straight, right, so perfectly parallel, which means that in 10 years time, they'll be the same, they'll resonate in the same way, they'll be as close, you know, whatever. But you don't know that yet. So I think that that's why I've always been slightly let down at, by the concept of marriage because I think, you know, you can't predict the future, so why would you wanna make something like that so final? Um, and

14. 1:14:20 – 1:20:38

    Marriage

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:20

       I've, I've al- I think, like, uh, you know the Men in Black? Have you seen Men in Black?

    2. KMKate Moyle1:14:23

       Oh, God, a long time ago.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:24

       Where they get the pen and they g- they hold it up and if they press the button on the pen, basically it erases your memory? I sometimes think, I think if, if we held that pen up to the world and erased everybody's memory, what are the things that would come back?

    4. KMKate Moyle1:14:35

       Mm.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:35

       Like, science would come back. Religion would never come back the same. We wouldn't, it wouldn't come back the same, right? Science, w- we'd figure all the same things out, the same experiments. Marriage, I'm like, no, it wouldn't come back the same. Not in 2021. I don't think that would come back the same. Um, I think we'd have a much more bespoke, open, flexible form of marriage that would involve less of the law and would involve less of the Church. Um, and I probably think would be a little bit more effective. So I guess my question is about marriage. What do you think about marriage? Are you married?

    6. KMKate Moyle1:15:08

       I am married. (laughs)

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:09

       Yes, you're married. Yeah. So, okay, we'll-

    8. KMKate Moyle1:15:11

       Careful what I say.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:11

       ... we'll cut now.

    10. KMKate Moyle1:15:12

        (laughs)

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:13

        And get your real opinion.

    12. KMKate Moyle1:15:14

        You know, I think that it's, what, what does it offer people? You know, like, what are people looking for? And I think, y- for a lot of people, it's security. You know, and it's really-

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:22

        Is that a form of insecurity though? Like, I think sec- I tend to, I'm gonna play devil's advocate here, okay?

    14. KMKate Moyle1:15:26

        Yeah, do.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:27

        Because I think if you were looking for security from, like, a legal contract, I'm like, then th- that, for me, speaks to a little bit of insecurity somewhere else.

    16. KMKate Moyle1:15:34

        Mm. But I think it's also about, you know, I suppose marriage has been the norm, right?

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:39

        Yeah.

    18. KMKate Moyle1:15:39

        Historically, it's always been the norm. It's always been also considered the gold standard or, like, what we should-

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:45

        Mm.

    20. KMKate Moyle1:15:45

        ... kind of aspire-

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:46

        Mm.

    22. KMKate Moyle1:15:46

        ... to be or aim for. And I think that, again, you know, that kind of that impact of history, like us doing the things that we've always done, but it is an institution and a lot of people subscribe to that. Now, what we see now is that people can be married multiple times and be happy in every relationship, or it be perfect for that stage or for them or for that relationship, that people don't need to get married, that people can parent and become parents without being married, that it's, I suppose, the biggest, um, representation of commitment-

Episode duration: 1:38:32