World Leading Sex Therapist: How To Avoid Having Bad Sex: Kate Moyle | E73

Kate Moyle 0:00 ... and it's the question everyone wants the answer to, right? (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 0:02 Yeah, right.

Kate Moyle 0:02 Um, it's-

Steven Bartlett 0:04 What is the single biggest killer of relationships in the modern age?

Narrator 0:17 (music)

Steven Bartlett 0:17 Let's talk about sex. Today's podcast is very, very different, but incredibly, incredibly important. Today, I'm sitting down with Kate Moyle, who is a sex therapist and a relationship therapist, to talk about some of the taboo topics which we don't normally discuss. Things like erectile dysfunction, sexual inadequacies, issues we all have in our relationships and sex lives. The single biggest killer of relationships in 2021. Sexual anxiety. How to keep a sexual relationship exciting, and everything in between. I'm gonna share some very personal sexual stories that I've never shared before. Some of the things that have gone well, and some of the problems that I've had that have caused relationships that have meant the world to me to end. This is a very, very honest, open podcast today. You know, this is why this is called the Diary of a CEO. And Kate is the perfect person to put them to. So, I think you're gonna enjoy this conversation. I certainly did. I feel very vulnerable sharing some of these stories with you. But as I always say, just keep it to yourself. So without further ado, this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

Narrator 1:28 (music)

Steven Bartlett 1:32 Sex. I think, I

Steven Bartlett 1:34 think it's fair to say that everybody has some kind of challenge with sex, at least some point, uh, uh, you know, at least at some point within their life. And I am no different. In fact, my last relationship, which was a very, I thought, I, I, uh, genuinely at one point thought that was gonna be my wife. Um, the reason that relationship broke down was because of a sexual issue and a sexual issue that showed up about seven or eight months into the relationship. And, um, long story short, I know this isn't a therapy session but it kind of is as well, um, at some point, seven, eight months into our relationship, she told me that she didn't like having sex. And I didn't know what that meant. And as a guy that's never experienced that in my life, um, I read into it probably in a, the wrong way. But it def- it definitely made me insecure. I was like, "What? You don't like having sex? How is that possible?" And I thought that was some kind of, um, condemnation on me. I thought that was something negative towards me or something that I was doing wrong. And I tried various things. I tried to, to be a bit more and just list- you know, listen a little bit more to what she wanted and how she wanted it. And then it, you know, it, it, it progressively got to a point where I was getting in bed and I was shitting myself-

Kate Moyle 2:50 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 2:50 ... because you don't wanna... Once you get reject- I've never been like, I've never gone to have sex with someone in my life and been rejected in that way, and so you get in bed and you don't wanna even ask them for sex because you might take an L, and you don't wanna take that L. And then how, how the hell am I meant to get an erection as a guy when I'm that fucking scared of, of rejection? And eventually, long story short, we're in, um, we're away one time and the same issue happened, and she, we were having sex and I cle- I was looking at her thinking she clearly isn't enjoying this at all. And we stopped, she started crying, she said, um, "I've got a problem." Um, she said like, uh, you know, "I just don't en- enjoy sex. I need to, like, a- address it." I said to her, "Do you, do you wanna talk about it?" She said, "I'm not comfortable talking about sex with you," even though we'd been in a relationship for a year. And I left, and then I broke up with her. And I do regret breaking up with her. Because, um, I did so maybe too flippantly.

Kate Moyle 3:44 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 3:44 And I didn't understand it, and I didn't think it was fixable, and I didn't know how to fix it, and, yeah, sorry for my brain, you know, my (laughs) dumping that on you, but good place to start.

Kate Moyle 3:53 No, I think, and, you know, so much of what you've just said, there's so many points there that, you know, I hear all the time, so difficulties with desire, struggles with communication, struggles with knowing like where to start in terms of talking about it, anxiety, you know, all of these points-

Steven Bartlett 4:10 Mm-hmm.

Kate Moyle 4:11 ... which can kind of get in the bedroom with us or be in bed with us. And we just don't know how we're meant to address them, we don't know what we're meant to do about them, and we all feel that sense of, "What am I doing wrong here?" Or, "What's wrong with me? Do I have a problem? Am I broken?" You know, all of these phrases, and actually working with all of the information that you've just given me, you know, as an example, we can kind of target or work with each of those problems in an individual way which isn't terrifying for people, which doesn't create more anxiety, which doesn't damage self-esteem. But we don't have those conversations in a bigger, more normalizing way.

Steven Bartlett 4:53 Yeah.

Kate Moyle 4:53 And I think one of the biggest things that I talk about is this idea that sex, like everything else across our lives, has good days, bad days, average days, variability, but we expect there to be this constant, and we expect it to be protected from everything else that we have going on in our lives, and that just isn't the case. But-

Steven Bartlett 5:12 And somewhat automatically, right? Like, we kind of expect it to take care of itself.

Kate Moyle 5:15 Yeah. And relationships as well. We kind of expect that, you know, once they're good, they're always good, that they shouldn't falter, that we shouldn't have to work at them, that they shouldn't struggle. And I think that there's such a problem with that as a basic foundation message around sex and relationships.

Steven Bartlett 5:36 How would you reframe that then? Well, how do I reframe my thinking in order to make sure that I'm... I guess that is a reframing of my thinking. If I think that this thing isn't gonna take care of itself and it needs to be worked on like everything else in my life, I guess that's the answer to keeping it exciting?

Kate Moyle 5:51 Yeah, I mean, I think that there's just a normalizing of the fact that our sex lives and our relationships are in the context of us. They're not isolated, they're not protected, they don't have their own kind of special area where they aren't impacted by-... how we feel about ourselves, stress, anxiety, our health, our mental health. You know, physically what's going on for us, um, psychologically what's going on for us. But why don't we just give ourselves a break and be like, "Do you know what? We're not perfect or good or great at everything else we do all the time, so why would we be here?" I don't think ... You know, I think as professionals we often talk about, like, why aren't we applying the logic that we apply everywhere else in our lives-

Steven Bartlett 6:32 Hmm.

Kate Moyle 6:33 ... to this- this part of our lives?

Steven Bartlett 6:35 And in that particular case with me and my- this- this particular person, um, she turned to me, I remember we were away one time, and she said to me, "You know, there's loads of people that are like me that don't have, like, a high libido or whatever, and I have just never encountered these people in my experiences." So I thought, "Oh, that's rubbish." Was she right?

Kate Moyle 6:54 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 6:55 Yeah?

Kate Moyle 6:55 She was.

Steven Bartlett 6:56 And how right is she?

Kate Moyle 6:57 Very right. And, you know, we understand that, you know, this is a huge part of the conversation around sex lives at the moment and sexual wellness at the moment is this idea about desire. Desire's not a fixed concept that we're born with. We're not gonna given or holding a set amount. It's not like we kind of have an amount and we, like, use it up. It is context dependent, it's responsive, and we understand that it changes. But actually how we can change that within kind of take power of our own, I suppose, or change that within the context that we're in, how we can feel in control of that is based in almost how we define it or how we understand it ourselves. And there's a huge problem with just thinking, "Okay, well I had it. Now I don't have it in the same way anymore, so what's wrong with me?" Or, "What's broken?" Or, "What changed?" Or, "What's not working here?" Rather than, "If I reframe my understanding and my thinking about this, it makes a lot more sense and it takes the pressure off. And when the pressure's off, then I can work with this in a more pleasure-focused, enjoyable way rather than an anxiety-provoking and stressful way."

Steven Bartlett 8:10 What should I have done? So the first time she turns to me, she says, "Steve, I'm just not that into this." Because it- what- what it was is we were in bed, and we're away on holiday, and I, like, you know, just I don't know what I do, whatever I do to- to let someone know that I wanna have sex. I don't know, stroke their arm or whatever. (laughs) I did whatever I do, and she was just like, "No." And what should I have done then? 'Cause, you know, I think a lot of people would take that as a bit of an L, and I certainly did. I was like, "What?" I was- and I was angry as well. Not, like, visibly angry. Not, like, you know, hitting with a pillow or anything. But I was like, I turn- I remember turning away and thinking, "Oh, fuck her," you know, like, 'cause I'd never experienced that before.

Kate Moyle 8:48 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 8:48 I'd never experienced that, like ... It is a form of rejection. It's like a- a form of s- it's a kick in the self-esteem. What should I have done?

Kate Moyle 8:57 Well, I think, you know, I can't talk to what was going on-

Steven Bartlett 8:59 Yeah, yeah.

Kate Moyle 8:59 ... for you two, like, kind of in- in that moment then, but, you know, the- the biggest problem that couples in situations like that have is assumption. So as you said, like, "This is a kick in the tooth for me. Like, that hurts. I feel rejected," so we internalize. And actually the best way for us to deal with something like that is to try and explain, to try and move away from assumption to explanation, to understanding. Because actually if we can have a conversation which opens it up and, you know, we- you hear sex and ex relationship experts talk about communication being, you know, the kind of biggest pillar of sexual wellness or sexual wellbeing. And assumption kind of- and the gap between expectations and reality is actually the biggest place that we have a lot of these problems, and I think that it feels like, you know, that's a good example of that happening.

Steven Bartlett 9:56 Fast-forward four months, uh, i- e- the- the same sort of issue happened, and she turned to me. And this is when I thought it was completely over, is she said to me, "I'm not comfortable with talking to you about sex," right? And we'd been together for a year, and I thought, "Well, if we can't talk about it, and I don't really understand the issue, and you're not willing to talk about it, then we are fucked." And I thought- and that's when I left. I left that country, um, soon after, and I broke up with her maybe, like, I- I don't know two, three weeks later, because I thought if we can't talk about it then w- how do we fix the situation?

Kate Moyle 10:30 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 10:31 And- but I do regret it, because I think- I reflect and I think, "I- I don't wanna be the type of guy generally that when they care about someone will walk away from it so easily," and I think I should've made a more active effort to try and support, as you say, and understand maybe.

Kate Moyle 10:45 But I would say sometimes the hardest person to talk to about sex is the person we're having it with.

Steven Bartlett 10:53 Yeah.

Kate Moyle 10:54 Because of- it's so loaded. It's so-

Steven Bartlett 10:57 Yeah.

Kate Moyle 10:57 ... like, intimate, it's so vulnerable. And also the fear of getting it wrong or making it worse or leading our partners on or going in the wrong direction or us not being able to unhear what we've heard or unsay what we've said.

Steven Bartlett 11:11 Yeah.

Kate Moyle 11:11 So actually, you know, that natural human response to feeling anxiety around something is avoidance. You know, we don't tend to approach the sources of our anxiety unless we're trying really hard to hone in on it or focus on it. Our most natural instinct is I don't wanna go there, you know? Like, it's just easier to keep the status quo even if that status quo isn't working. And so it's- it's about thinking about how do we- how do we help people to approach that source of anxiety or feel empowered to change their conversation around sex? Because it's really- it's really hard. It's like talking in a language that we've not been taught. You know, we're not taught how to have these conversations. We're not taught to be comfortable about these conversations. We're not taught that sex is normalized as a topic, and then we're expected to all be experts and that our partners are going to be experts, and we're all expecting that from each other. And then when it doesn't work-... you know, we have no solutions or ways of knowing how to deal with it. Now, some of us muddle through. We kind of work it out. We're like, "Okay, well, let's try this or think about this, or take expert advice, or listen to a podcast, or read a book, or get the information and we can kind of work our way through it." But for a lot of us, that's way too intimidating. You know, sex feels like an off-the-record, you know, off-the-table topic.

Steven Bartlett 12:31 How would you bring it on the table? How, how do... And I'm presuming that s- couples that are successful in the bedroom are those that bring it on the table to some degree?

Kate Moyle 12:40 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 12:41 Is that a fair assumption or...?

Kate Moyle 12:42 Yeah, I think that's definitely a fair assumption. I think that, you know, it takes the courage to do it. It takes the kind of sitting in the uncomfortable. It might be quite anxiety breaking. Obviously, some people kind of seek out therapy or external advice or someone that can help them manage those conversations, or they might do it in their own way, so it might be kind of reading a book and sharing that with each other, or listening to a TED Talk and then sharing that with each other and using that as a springboard to have that conversation. But I would say it's talking about it outside of the bedroom is the biggest way to put it on the table.

Steven Bartlett 13:18 And is it possible to be just, like, sexually incompatible with someone?

Kate Moyle 13:22 Yeah, I think it is, in the way it's, uh, you know, impossible, impossible to be incompatible with anything else. But what we can also do is, you know, when we have different interests or different preferences in other areas of our lives, we can work together to negotiate that, to manage that, to kind of work to each other's kind of preferences, or, and kind of switch that around, or manage that, manage that kind of relational bit-

Steven Bartlett 13:50 Mm.

Kate Moyle 13:50 ... that kind of bit in between. And it is possible to do that with sex. But also, for some people, they might have deal breakers and they might not be able to meet those for each other.

Steven Bartlett 13:59 This is pr- I don't know if this is too much information, but I don't think I care. Um-

Kate Moyle 14:03 (laughs) .

Steven Bartlett 14:03 ... I, I remember one day as well, I tried to introduce... Because I typically, when I have sex, I typically use a lot of additional apparatus. So I'll use all kinds of stuff, I don't care. Like, I'll use handcuffs and all kinds of ropes and toys and whatever else. And I remember trying to introduce something like that, because I thought maybe it'd make it a little bit more interesting for her, and, um, she was like, "Absolutely not." She, she said to me that she thought... I think it was a vibrator. She thought a vibrator was for old people. And, you know, I'm already up- I'm really up against it here, lad, so I'm trying to (laughs) like-

Kate Moyle 14:37 (laughs) .

Steven Bartlett 14:37 ... do something to, to help. And when she said that, I just thought like, "Maybe we are just, like, sexually incompatible. Maybe we're j- we just speak two different languages here." So, don't know if I'm...

Kate Moyle 14:47 But, you know, like, sometimes one partner... You know, what I would say is it's actually more common for couples to not be perfectly sexually matched-

Steven Bartlett 14:55 Yeah.

Kate Moyle 14:56 ... than it is for them to be, like, perfectly sexually matched in every way. And for some people, they are more ready to try something or, you know, they might be the one that leads something and then the other partner kind of catches up, or... It's really in about also kind of, like, how we perceive what our partner is suggesting-

Steven Bartlett 15:14 Mm-hmm.

Kate Moyle 15:14 ... or how we, what we think that means. Because one of the things about sex is we have this idea as humans about, like, metacognition, like, we think about our thoughts, we, we think about what that, our thoughts mean. And I think it's really, really apparent when it comes to sex and relationships, because we're trying to constantly analyze what's happening or, as you said, kind of looking out for, like, the risk of rejection or the fear-

Steven Bartlett 15:39 Mm-hmm.

Kate Moyle 15:39 ... of rejection. We're trying to understand what that means about us, or what that means about them, or what it means about our relationship. And so we're always trying to, I suppose, think about, like, what's going on and the wider context or meaning of that. Now, when it comes to sex, we're already in a culture and a society where it's a bit taboo-

Steven Bartlett 16:03 Yeah, taboo.

Kate Moyle 16:03 ... where it's quite stigmatized, where we don't necessarily want to kind of step outside the norms or the expectations, because what does that mean about us as a person?

Steven Bartlett 16:13 I, you know, s- since that, um, whole event, I... You know, we, we, we spoke a little bit after we broke up and she, she told me... That was actually the first time she told me that she had, like, a low libido, and I actually didn't really understand what that meant, so I googled it. But then I started talking to some friends about it, specifically some male friends. And I had another male friend say to me, one of my best friends said to me that he also had the same problem where he just lost his, um, sexual desire-

Kate Moyle 16:37 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 16:38 ... um, in... you know, when he got to a certain age, which I v- I was shocked about because you don't, people don't have these conversations, so you don't think it happens. So when we encounter it, whether it's in the bedroom or wherever else, um, yeah, it really feels like a real

Steven Bartlett 16:51 anomaly. But how, how common is low libido, and, and also, what are the c- what are the typical causes of someone having a low libido?

Kate Moyle 17:00 I think really common, and I think, you know, like so much of this stuff, we don't have huge and huge amounts of, at least up to date, like, sex research. So, you know, it's something that people are really trying to kind of develop in this space. But what we understand when we think about desire... So we've got desire and we've got arousal. So arousal, the body's physical ability to kind of prepare for sex, the desire, the want to be sexual. And what we understand is that it typically changes across relationships. And what feels really difficult about it is that at the start of relationships when everything is new and exciting, we're getting to know each other, we're exploring, it feels like desire is very high. We're kind of leaning into that because it's a way of getting to know each other, a way of connecting with that person. And it's kind of, what we understand is, it's triggered, I suppose, a lot because a lot of the situations we find ourselves in are novel, are-

Steven Bartlett 17:57 Mm-hmm.

Kate Moyle 17:58 ... kind of tuning in towards that area of our brain that likes the new things, that likes the excitement. And we have that sense of wanting to get closer to that person, wanting to get to know them. Now-... also what we see, particularly this is with a relationship focus, is there's like exchange of kind of like novelty, newness, the unknown, exploration for like routine, security, safety, getting to know someone. So we kind of see these things switching out almost.

Steven Bartlett 18:24 Mm-hmm.

Kate Moyle 18:24 And so it's just actually that as we get kind of more used to each other, there are the less of those kind of triggering, like exciting moments, which are where desire can tend to thrive. And what we need to do is perhaps just slightly more consciously or with a bit more of an effort put in the time to create those spaces. Now chuck in, I mean, you know, the year we found ourselves in where no one's had any kind of personal space or independence or ability to go away and come back together, kind of change of context. But technology, the kind of, well third and fourth if there's two people in the relationship wheels-

Steven Bartlett 19:00 (laughs)

Kate Moyle 19:00 ... that are constantly taking our attention, kind of demanding us, you know, distracting us. So we're missing signals from our partners, we're missing those kind of, I suppose, quality time moments. We're constantly being notified or we're distracted. And actually then it's harder for us to give each other our full attention, to kind of sit down and focus on each other, to have the things that promote connection, eye contact, touch. We're constantly kind of looking around and connecting, I suppose, with everyone apart from the person actually that we're with. It creates a barrier.

Steven Bartlett 19:35 And so how do, you know, you get five, 10, 15, 20 years into a relationship, um, and you've started to get secure and things are predictable. How do you... This is probably

Steven Bartlett 19:46 the most popular question I'm sure you get, which is like, how do you keep it fresh?

Kate Moyle 19:49 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 19:50 What advice would you give me to keep my sex life with a partner I've been with for X amount of years still fresh, exciting and, uh, you know, exploratory?

Kate Moyle 19:58 Um, yeah, I think it's, I mean, it's the question everyone wants the answer to, right? (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 20:02 Yeah. Right.

Kate Moyle 20:02 Um, it's, it is about A, I suppose, first thing, acknowledging that it might be different to how it used to be. So again, one of the, I think biggest hurdles people can get kind of tripped over on is it's not the same as it used to be or it changed. Now why does that mean it's worse? You know, actually perhaps the quality of the sex that people might be having might be better-

Steven Bartlett 20:29 Mm-hmm.

Kate Moyle 20:29 ... because they know each other better, they understand each other's bodies better, they feel more in tune with each other. So it's understanding that you might be in a different phase or stage, and that's okay. It doesn't have to be, you know, that famous phrase, the honeymoon period that kind of everybody quotes or goes back to. So I think that is one thing, and I think actually kind of carving out the time and the space and the effort and not seeing that as a bad thing, not seeing that as problematic that we have to be a bit more conscious of that part of our relationships is a huge, huge factor. Because what the kind of common narrative we see in like society I suppose is if I have to make an effort for this, then there must be something wrong with that because sex should be spontaneous, should be something that just happens.

Steven Bartlett 21:20 That's what it says in the movies.

Kate Moyle 21:21 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 21:22 (laughs)

Kate Moyle 21:23 Well, which is part of the problem, right? Because that's one of the most easily accessible visual versions of sex that we have. We don't see into other people's sex lives in the same way. Now what we do see is social media or pictures of couples or images of couples or... and we make assumptions about them. We make assumptions about they look happy, bet they have great sex.

Steven Bartlett 21:47 Yeah, in porn it's just like the gardener's like outside-

Kate Moyle 21:49 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 21:49 ... and then he like comes in and the husband's away and then like it's just per- boom, perfect.

Kate Moyle 21:54 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 21:54 Lasts an hour, everyone looks like they're having a great time. (laughs)

Kate Moyle 21:57 But one of the, one of the best phrases that I heard and, you know, um, is trying to learn about sex from porn is like learning to drive from watching The Fast and the Furious.

Steven Bartlett 22:06 (laughs)

Kate Moyle 22:07 And it's one of the things that I go back to.

Steven Bartlett 22:08 So true.

Kate Moyle 22:08 I wish I knew who said it, and if you know, please-

Steven Bartlett 22:10 Just claim it.

Kate Moyle 22:11 ... tell me so you can claim it.

Steven Bartlett 22:12 It's fine, just claim it.

Kate Moyle 22:12 Um, but porn wasn't designed as an educational tool.

Steven Bartlett 22:18 Yeah.

Kate Moyle 22:18 But a lot of people have used it as one, and that's again-

Steven Bartlett 22:21 Oh, I mean like every man ever.

Kate Moyle 22:22 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 22:22 And also women, to be fair. Like I think w- men have this bias where we think women don't watch porn. But then you ask a woman, you know, and I've asked several of my ex-girlfriends if they've watched porn and they're, "Well yeah, they do." Some of them do. But I'd say, I, and this is a general... And I'd love for you to correct me here 'cause I, I, I'd love to not be, I love to be corrected on things like this where I'm so naive. I, I tend to believe that like 90% of my male friends watch porn, and then I, I think it's probably like 50% of my female friends. Do you know the numbers? Is that...

Kate Moyle 22:50 I don't know the numbers, but I, you know, we know that women watch porn.

Steven Bartlett 22:54 Yeah.

Kate Moyle 22:54 We know that there are also a huge rise of like female-friendly, female-focused-

Steven Bartlett 22:58 Yeah.

Kate Moyle 22:58 ... pornography platforms kind of coming forward. And I think that a lot of those ideas, again, tie into these old stereotypes or narratives-

Steven Bartlett 23:06 Mm-hmm.

Kate Moyle 23:06 ... about like male sexuality and female sexuality.

Steven Bartlett 23:09 Yeah.

Kate Moyle 23:09 And that, you know, we're trying to change the conversation around this, and I think that it's also about recognizing that they're not these kind of like two like so separate entities, and actually that we can understand that we're all sexual creatures or we all have our own versions of sexuality. And what that doesn't mean is that it has to, again, kind of line up with the narratives that have always been there, which is like men do this, women do this.

Steven Bartlett 23:36 But are there distinctions between, um, sexual appetite and the type of representation of sex that men and women typically want to see? I was gonna ask you a question which kind of, uh, alludes to the same answer, but it's like if you were to create a porn... 'Cause you said there's men- there's now sites emerging which are like female-friendly.

Kate Moyle 23:54 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 23:55 I'm like what's the, what's the, what's the difference? What, what's, how do they...

Kate Moyle 23:59 I suppose, well, you know, one of the things that, um, a lot of these sites are creating is a focus on kind of female pleasure-

Steven Bartlett 24:07 Mm-hmm.

Kate Moyle 24:07 ... in a way which is, so what we know for example is that the majority of women, um, or like the most common way of bringing women to orgasm is through direct clitoral stimulation.

Steven Bartlett 24:16 Mm-hmm.

Kate Moyle 24:17 But for example, in not necessarily porn but in the movies, we never see that.

Steven Bartlett 24:22 Course.

Kate Moyle 24:22 And so then everyone is kind of replicating what they see in the movies, and no wonder it's not quite working. So I think that there's also, you know, educational elements starting to kind of come forward in a lot of that kind of content as well.

Steven Bartlett 24:36 I guess that makes sense. If the demand for pornography has been me- skewed male, then what you're seeing in the pornography would also be catered to a male likes to believe is ... You know, men, g- as, as you, like, alluded to there, men typically get their arousal from, like, what do they call it, vaginal penetration, I guess that's the correct term.

Kate Moyle 24:59 Not intercourse? Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 25:00 Yeah, or intercourse, whatever. But women would typically get, reach, like, an orgasm via clitoral stimulation.

Kate Moyle 25:07 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 25:08 So porn tends to reflect the, the former. Um, so has, has porn been a, a, a positive or negative impact on, um, our perceptions and images of what our own sexual relationship should be like, do you think?

Kate Moyle 25:27 Oh, it's such a big question, isn't it? Again, it's the one that everyone wants to know the answer to. I think that the problem that we've seen is when people have used it as an educational resource, and that's not how it was designed.

Steven Bartlett 25:38 Mm-hmm.

Kate Moyle 25:38 Um, now, what it has offered is people who are exploring their sexuality and feel that it doesn't fit, for example, the norm or expected norm, you know, however you want, whatever terminology you want to use for that, it's offered those people a sense of community, or safety in exploring, or belonging, or knowing that they're not alone, not isolated in their experience. And so there are, you know, like everything in life there's gonna be huge pros and cons, and like anything in life it's how people use anything. But I think for me, you know, working with people with sexual problems and relationship problems, isolation or feeling alone in your experience is probably the biggest side effect or negative side effect on mental health, or on the problem itself of what they're experiencing, of what they're struggling with. And so combating that, which in a way is where therapy helps, you know, we're kind of sharing that conversation, we know that shame thrives in silence, we're starting to externalize, we're starting to talk about these things-

Steven Bartlett 26:46 Hm.

Kate Moyle 26:46 ... is making people feel they're not alone is massive.

Steven Bartlett 26:52 I, um ... One of the things you said, I, I read that you'd said before which I thought was really good advice, especially as it relates to keeping sex, like, fresh and exciting, was just to change one thing every time. Um, and I wanted to, for you to tell me why you think that's important and how that helps. It goes back to some of the themes you talked about, but it was one of the things that I thought I could immediately do in my own sex life to keep things continually fresh.

Kate Moyle 27:19 Hm.

Steven Bartlett 27:20 Yeah. And what are those small things that you're, you're referring to when you say?

Kate Moyle 27:23 I suppose what I like about that is it's actionable, so it's this idea that we can all be, like, empowered and in control to do something in our sex lives. And, you know, like, one of the, the phrases we hear kind of all the time is, like, mixing it up, spicing it up. And what I think people get intimidated by is the idea that they have to do something massive to do that, that they have to, you know, go out (laughs) and, like, buy a whole new wardrobe, or-

Steven Bartlett 27:51 (laughs) Yeah, BDSM, like

Narrator 27:51 (laughs)

Kate Moyle 27:51 Yeah, exactly.

Steven Bartlett 27:52 ... go to Dunkin'.

Kate Moyle 27:52 Or try something that they've, like, never done before, or you know, buy 25 sex toys, or-

Steven Bartlett 27:57 Yeah.

Kate Moyle 27:58 ... um, you know, try everything. Like, and that in itself then becomes a barrier to people trying it 'cause they're like, "Oh, God, that sounds scary." Like ...

Steven Bartlett 28:06 And expensive as well.

Kate Moyle 28:07 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 28:08 (laughs)

Kate Moyle 28:08 As well. But you know, like, that I, it's that, um, "God, like how am I gonna do that?" There's no stepping stones to that, it's a whole, like, bridge, a whole jump. And that pu- puts people off. So again, we're back to that avoidance thing, "Do you know what? I'll just stay in my safe zone, I'll stay in my comfort zone, I'll stay where I am." Like, the idea of trying that and it not working, or trying that and it failing feels way scarier than where we're at right now. And so I think that idea of, like, changing one thing every time is it's also that routine doesn't kind of help, or promote, or, um, kind of encourage desire 'cause we're like, "Ah, I know what's coming. I know how this is gonna go." And what we're then doing is we're more likely to kind of let our thoughts wander or be distracted. And we see that with people, you know, they're like, "I know what's gonna go so actually I wasn't really noticing what was happening in my body or that experience, I was thinking about, like, everything I need to do tomorrow." And so what it does is it works as a way of encouraging breaking up routine. Now these are small things, like having the lights on or having the lights off, starting with your clothes on or your clothes off, keeping your underwear on or your underwear off, using lube or not, you know, m- taking intercourse off the table for that evening and just focusing on non-penetrative sex, trying a sex toy, or you know, putting ... Even something simple that I talk about is putting, like, your pillows on the other end of your bed so your room feels different, like lighting candles, changing your smell, having a shower or not. You know ...

Steven Bartlett 29:37 Doing it in the street. Right. (laughs)

Kate Moyle 29:39 (laughs)

Narrator 29:39 (laughs)

Kate Moyle 29:39 You can get arrested for that.

Steven Bartlett 29:40 Yeah. Don't do that.

Kate Moyle 29:41 But, um, you know, it's that idea of these are all accessible, within range, non-intimidating things that we can try to create shifts and changes.

Steven Bartlett 29:53 My journey with Huel has intensified a lot over the last 6 to 12 months. The, the untold story of a healthy diet and a nutritionally complete diet is how you feel. And really, that's a much more important thing because actually how you feel is the sort of precursor to you having the motivation, the discipline, and the state of mind that will help you go to the gym and follow through on your goals. And I feel amazing. I don't think I've ever felt better. I've never had more energy, I've been sleeping amazingly well, my sort of mental cognition has been sharper than it ever has before, but I just feel good, right? And you often just get to see the physical effects that having a nutritionally complete diet can have, but there are all of these other impacts and other effects which are so much more important, and as I said are the precursor to the positive physical, um-... effects you see. So, yeah, you know, it- it's one thing having a podcast sponsor that pays you money. But it's, uh, it's another thing having a podcast sponsor who you genuinely believe can help people change their lives for the better. Is it possible for some ... You know,

Steven Bartlett 30:56 because I've got this one friend, and I'm sorry to just rinse one of my friends here.

Kate Moyle 30:59 I've got this one friend. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 31:00 Yeah, this is the problem with being friends with me, you always appear in the podcast if you've got any slight, like, peculiarity about you. Um, and like, I feel like all of my friends have, have been mentioned in this podcast at least once. They just don't know where they're being mentioned.

Kate Moyle 31:11 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 31:13 But I've ... (laughs) But I've got this one friend who ... He's a guy, and he ... I've known him maybe 10 years, and I've, I don't think he's ever had sex. And he's maybe 27, 28 years old or whatever, and I don't believe he's ever had sex.

Kate Moyle 31:26 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 31:26 I've never ha- I've never seen him in a relationship. He do- he doesn't talk to girls, um, at all, or guys for that matter. Um, and I don't ... It, it's just so unusual because in our, in our friendship group we talk about sex a lot, so we're always talking about, you know, who he's sleeping with and various things. And we've basically just learned to just not have the conversation with him, or when he's there ... You know, if we're just like joking with each other as friends, we would never joke with him because it's just this big question mark and none of us know the answer. Um, and I think my conclusion has bec- been maybe he's just asexual, if that's a thing.

Kate Moyle 32:02 It is a thing.

Steven Bartlett 32:03 And what is that thing? And what ... And if you ... I'm sure you've heard about this before, right? (laughs) What is ... what's going on? (laughs)

Kate Moyle 32:09 Well, I mean, like, we- we don't know what's going on for that person. But, you know, asexuality is, is some ... is an identity, you know, like people who don't experience sexual attraction. And what that also doesn't mean ... So we have asexuality and aromanticism. So those are two different concepts, so what we can see is that people can have successful relationships and be asexual because they can have connection and friendship and intimacy. And we can see that people who, um, are ... So we can understand that it's not a kind of like pairing necessarily. And something I also talk about is we can have intimacy without sex and sex without intimacy. Now, what ... A group that I've also worked with is lots of people who have such bad sexual anxiety, and this is in no way me saying what's going on for your friend, but that, that limits them in sexually exploring or taking their sex life to where they want to go or dating or seeing people. Because what it can feel a bit like is if we get on the ladder of, for example, meeting someone or dating, then we get closer towards the source of our anxiety, which might be sex. And I think that people who haven't had sexual experiences, and I suppose bear in mind you're only viewing this from your perspective rather than speaking to the person-

Steven Bartlett 33:26 Mm-hmm.

Kate Moyle 33:26 ... that you've been speaking to, um, is that, that kind of ... It can feel like a snowball effect of-

Steven Bartlett 33:34 Yeah.

Kate Moyle 33:34 ... and, you know, something that I talk a lot about in therapy with people that I'm working with is this snowball effect of, "Okay, well, the older I get, the more I feel that this is a worry or the more I feel other people will judge me or the more I feel that I won't match up to what's expected of me or that p- I will get kind of found out." And I think that these anxieties around sex are also because what we assume is sexuality in people, so we kind of assume everyone's sexually active. It goes back to that point about feeling isolated or alone in our experience, "Everybody else is doing it, so what's wrong with me?"

Steven Bartlett 34:11 Mm-hmm.

Kate Moyle 34:11 And that the problem we have when it comes to sex is we can't know with people until we check it out. We can't know until we ... We're judging someone's inside world based on what we see from the outside, and actually what we know with sex is that they don't always match up. There's no way of really knowing until we, for example, you know, sit down with a therapist and unpack it or sit down with a friend or a family member or whoever that is we share, you know, a partner that conversation with.

Steven Bartlett 34:43 I think there's also like ... I was just thinking then about there's also this, like, wider philosophical question of, like, what is the purpose of sex? Because if you see sex as being, you know, just to ejaculate, then, you know, you might encounter a bunch of issues there because the, the role that s- s- sex is playing for your partner might be a completely different one. So, I guess at first you have to understand what role sex plays in relationships, uh, to, to your partner but also to yourself.

Kate Moyle 35:09 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 35:09 Like,

Steven Bartlett 35:10 is there ... What ... How would you define the purpose or the role of sex? What is it? Why, why do we do it and what's it for?

Kate Moyle 35:15 We're gonna make a sex, sexual therapist of you yet.

Steven Bartlett 35:17 Oh, here we go. Here we go.

Kate Moyle 35:18 (laughs) I'll be having my job in a minute.

Steven Bartlett 35:19 Yeah, I know. You'll see tomorrow on the

Narrator 35:20 Instagram page.

Kate Moyle 35:21 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 35:21 It's like, "Sex with Steve." It's like-

Kate Moyle 35:23 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 35:24 ... it's just everything you've said.

Kate Moyle 35:25 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 35:25 I'm just, like, reselling it.

Kate Moyle 35:26 Um, so one of my favorite pieces of research, and anyone who's listened to my podcast or any of the interviews and stuff I know is gonna be so bored of hearing me bang on about this, is a paper called Why Humans Have Sex. Um, and it was done in 2007, and it identified 237 reasons for why humans have sex.

Steven Bartlett 35:43 Yeah, we don't have that kind of time unfortunately.

Kate Moyle 35:44 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 35:46 Or our next question politically. No, I'm joking.

Kate Moyle 35:48 Uh, um, so the ... It's just this understanding of, like, the motivations for why people have sex, and there is such a wide breadth of those. And that might be, um, you know, my fave- my favorite one from that study is, um, because I was cold, because I wanted to get warm.

Steven Bartlett 36:05 What? (laughs)

Kate Moyle 36:05 But we can understand that, you know, it might be because I want an orgasm, because my partner looked hot, because, um, I wanted to feel close to them, because I wanted to show them I loved them, because, because, because, because. So, the meaning of sex goes be- so beyond the what of what we're doing. But we are so focused on the what all the time.

Steven Bartlett 36:27 Mm-hmm.

Kate Moyle 36:27 And then we get so tangled up in everything that's kind of psychologically going on for us. And I think that, you know, sometimes we're thinking about the why, you know, what does it represent in our relationship if we're in a relationship? What does it represent to us if we're single? What does it represent to us if actually the sexual relationship we have is just with ourselves? You know, I think that-Thinking about that is such a big part of us understanding ourselves sexually.

Steven Bartlett 36:54 There's definitely emotional elements but there's also, like, a physical, uh, prehistoric, maybe evolutionary role that sex plays, right? And has that been somewhat lost upon us now? Like, 'cause my body, my body, you know, the chemicals in my body will start tickling me and telling me that I'm horny, and then, uh, it, you know, that will drive me into action. Uh, you know? I, I feel like the, the role, the sort of prehistoric, evolutionary role of sex has been lost upon us a little bit, especially now that, you know, we have s- all this contraception and we can swerve having kids, so I think it's become a bit of a s- sport for many people.

Kate Moyle 37:29 Well, sex is about pleasure, isn't it?

Steven Bartlett 37:31 I don't know. You tell me. Uh- (laughs)

Kate Moyle 37:35 (laughs) Um, well, you know, I think-

Steven Bartlett 37:35 Is it?

Kate Moyle 37:36 ... you know, well, what we see is that the majority of the reasons that people have sex are not to do with procreation.

Steven Bartlett 37:43 Yeah.

Kate Moyle 37:44 And also, the, the problem is, I think something you kind of said earlier, um, was it's so goal... It can be so goal-orientated. Now, again, this is where so many people struggle with sex because if sex is goal-orientated, and as you said, like, the goal is to orgasm or to ejaculate or to finish, then what happens if that doesn't happen? We feel like we've failed.

Steven Bartlett 38:13 Yeah.

Kate Moyle 38:13 And so what it creates then is this goal-orientated kind of pass or fail model for sex. Now, the complete irony of that is if we're struggling and we're focused on where we need to get to as a goal, the act of focusing on where we need to get to is actually the thing that is most likely to not get us there.

Steven Bartlett 38:33 Prevent you, yeah.

Kate Moyle 38:33 Because it's preventative, because if we are in the moment, enjoying what we're doing, experiencing kind of pleasure and sensations and able to enjoy it, then that's actually the thing that's probably most likely to get us there. But if we're so distracted by the negative thoughts that are going on in our heads, we're so distracted by our concerns, our worries-

Steven Bartlett 38:56 Mm-hmm.

Kate Moyle 38:56 ... that is going to break down that kind of process of us getting there.

Steven Bartlett 39:02 'Cause I know a lot of people who I... All the, every sentence I say sounds so strange. I was gonna say, I know a lot of people that struggle with orgasms. (laughs) But I know, I've spoken to some of my girlfriends and I've asked, I've asked them if they've orgasmed. And in fact, my ex- one of my ex-girlfriends, she said to me that she had basically never had an orgasm in her life, um, which I, obviously as a guy you find quite... Well, well not, I mean, obviously, but as a guy that has never had that problem, I found that quite peculiar and I wondered why, why some people can orgasm so easily and then some people are, find it a lot more difficult.

Kate Moyle 39:36 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 39:37 Um, in this particular case, my suspicions were that it was an e- an emotional thing. In fact, what you've just de- described there about worry, this is one of the, the people that I know that's very, very tense about the topic of sex. And I just thought, I, you know, I, my suspicion, again super naive, was that they're not... Knowing this person, um, they would probably not be able to relax-

Kate Moyle 39:56 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 39:57 ... uh, in bed. And then when I, when they became a sexual partner of mine, I thought, "Yeah, they're just, like, not relaxed at all." Um, but I wanted to get your, your take on why some, some people find it so easy to orgasm and then some people just can't at all.

Kate Moyle 40:09 Mm-hmm. Well, I think it also goes back to almost like the first time, you know, early messages about this stuff as well. You know, early messages about what it's like to have these experiences, what it's like to be sexual, you know. Is it something that's never been talked about? Is it something that's shrouded in shame? Is it something that we, um, think that we shouldn't be doing or we think about ourselves a certain way for doing? And so there's so many components to this as a conversation, um, you know, probably, um, too many, you know, longer than we have time for. But there's the idea of how we, again, think about what we're doing, how we know and learn about our bodies, what we know and learn about our bodies, how we discover what works for us and our preferences. So there's the physical element. You know, we talk about-

Steven Bartlett 40:55 Mm-hmm.

Kate Moyle 40:55 ... an orgasm as a peak pleasure experience, but also how we feel about it because if we're feeling shame or embarrassment or that we shouldn't be doing this, that is gonna be something which, again, gets in the way of us being able to fully let go and enjoy ourselves or giving ourselves... In therapy, we talk a lot about this idea of giving ourselves permission-

Steven Bartlett 41:17 Mm-hmm.

Kate Moyle 41:18 ... to be sexual or to let go or to enjoy ourselves or to experience pleasure.

Steven Bartlett 41:25 Again, this is super naive, but an orgasm is a pretty natural thing, isn't it? It's like a natural physiological re- reaction-

Kate Moyle 41:31 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 41:32 ... to stimulation. So again, super naive. Just, I will just disclaimer from here on out that everything I say is largely naive and I'll stop disclaimering every sentence. But someone would assume that if, you know, if we're struggling to orgasm then there's something maybe emotional, maybe even physical, that's being, going unmet or-

Kate Moyle 41:49 There might be something physical going on but, you know, it, it's, there's probably, like, something emotional going on. But it's also about, you know, have we learnt to-

Steven Bartlett 41:57 Yeah.

Kate Moyle 41:57 ... do this? Like, have we learnt to kind of experience pleasure enough to take us there? And also, once we do, then we're like, "Okay, I understand how my body works now. I understand how that feels." And I think for lots of... The lack of sex education here is a huge part of the problem, you know. Pleasure has historically been left out of the conversation.

Steven Bartlett 42:18 Mm-hmm.

Kate Moyle 42:18 And particularly female

Kate Moyle 42:19 pleasure.

Steven Bartlett 42:20 Who are your, who are your clients? Who, who comes to you with the, the sex issues and challenges the most?

Kate Moyle 42:28 Normal people with normal problems, you know, everyday people-

Steven Bartlett 42:31 Genders? Genders?

Kate Moyle 42:31 ... for everyday problems. Um, genders. You know, both men and women. I work with both couples and individuals. I have a lot of younger clients. So a lot of my clients are kind of in that sub 45 age bra- age bracket, but I lo- work with a lot of people in their kind of early 20s, and I think that their early 20s, kind of 30s, but also there's...There's a couple of things that are going on. One is that therapy has become less, less taboo-

Steven Bartlett 42:57 Mm-hmm.

Kate Moyle 42:57 ... in itself, and sex much less taboo, and we have this kind of corner of therapy which is psychosexual therapy where I think people recognize that it now can be a solution or that sexual problems aren't just medical, that actually there can be something psychological or emotional going on. And I think that the idea of accessing help for this stuff now has become much more normalized, which is brilliant, I think, you know, and much needed. And there are some amazing, amazing sexual experts and sexual therapists in this country who, you know, I hope are really being, and I know are b- really being used by people to help them improve this part of their lives. And I think that, again, a part of it is any other aspect of our life we would go and see a doctor-

Steven Bartlett 43:47 Mmm.

Kate Moyle 43:47 ... or go and see a physio or go and see a nutritionist or whatever it is, you know, if another part, if a part of our body wasn't working, we would access help for it without feeling embarrassed.

Steven Bartlett 43:59 Mmm.

Kate Moyle 43:59 You know, if we'd injured our knee-

Steven Bartlett 44:00 Mmm.

Kate Moyle 44:01 ... we wouldn't feel embarrassed about going to ask someone about that. But why, when it comes to sex, do we feel that we shouldn't access the help and then the longer we're struggling with that, the more of a problem that becomes because we don't just have the original problem, but how we think and feel about it.

Steven Bartlett 44:18 But is there like a, is there like an age range where people are more likely to go and see a sexual therapist?

Kate Moyle 44:27 No, I don't think there is. Then I think that-

Steven Bartlett 44:29 So you think it's evenly distributed from like 20 to 80?

Kate Moyle 44:34 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 44:34 Really?

Kate Moyle 44:34 I mean, and I think, you know, again it's the bit about life stages, isn't it? You know, what are people looking to explore at different stages? We see, for example, people might go after a cancer diagnosis or cancer treatment or, for example, around menopause or, um, that there are certain health conditions that impact sexuality or, you know, common side effect of a lot of anti-anxiety medications and antidepressants are an impact on sex lives. Or it might be that someone is starting their sexual experiences or they've had a relationship where sex has been a problem and they don't want to carry that on into their next relationship. I think that it's about understanding like what has brought that person to therapy at that time is a big part of, for me as a therapist anyway, kind of exploring what's going on for that person, what's the trigger for dealing with it now.

Steven Bartlett 45:24 Polygamy. Um, do you have a lot of people come to you t- with, in polygamous relationships?

Kate Moyle 45:31 So you mean like polyamory, like multi-partner-

Steven Bartlett 45:33 Yeah like multi, multi-partner relationships.

Kate Moyle 45:34 ... kind of?

Steven Bartlett 45:34 And what are the issues typically that, um, uh, you'd see with, yeah, polyamorous, polygamous relationships?

Kate Moyle 45:41 Yeah, I think that it's something that people have a lot of questions about.

Steven Bartlett 45:45 Yeah.

Kate Moyle 45:45 Um, it's something that, you know, I've talked about on my podcast because it's what people are curious about, um, because it's also a breaking away from our kind of heteronormative, like mono-normative model-

Steven Bartlett 45:59 Mmm.

Kate Moyle 45:59 ... of relationships. And I think the big questions that people have are, "How do we do this? You know, how do we navigate this? How do we manage it?" And that's about working out what the rules are for those people, you know, how do they hold ... What are the rules for them that work for them? How do they understand the rules, you know, rules around things like disclosure, rules around things like how much detail do we go into, how do we manage this? But actually communication for lots of those relationships is really good because they have to be really good in order to manage that different style of being or, you know, also just the practicalities of there being more than two partners in a relationship.

Steven Bartlett 46:44 I've always wondered if it would cause a lot more problems, but I guess you've answered it there, it's about setting, setting clear rules and having effective communication. Um, my, my next, and my next question again, which I was really excited to ask you was like what's the... And this is a super hard question, so just, you know-

Kate Moyle 46:58 Get ready.

Steven Bartlett 46:59 Yeah. Uh, what are the, what are the things that men don't un- typically don't understand about women when it comes to sex and vice versa?

Kate Moyle 47:07 Oh.

Steven Bartlett 47:08 It's a hard question, isn't it?

Kate Moyle 47:09 It is a hard question-

Steven Bartlett 47:09 I was just thinking, I was thinking because I know men are super naïve and we watch a ce- we're exposed to a certain type of media and content and then we like rush into the bedroom thinking that, I don't know, our partners want to be, I don't know, tied up or dominated or whatever else. And then from the other perspective, you know, when you speak to a woman about sex and what she's looking for, there's obviously... She's experienced a certain type of media but she also is, I think, typically, again, we're being super binary here-

Kate Moyle 47:36 Mmm.

Steven Bartlett 47:37 ... um, typically a woman is, is, is, um, has a slightly different expectation from the man, from my experiences anyway.

Kate Moyle 47:47 I think part of the problem in that is that binary approach-

Steven Bartlett 47:52 Yeah.

Kate Moyle 47:52 ... is that... If there's something that I would want everyone to understand it's that we can be different but we are also so similar-

Steven Bartlett 47:58 Mm-hmm.

Kate Moyle 48:00 ... um, you know, and like this idea about like performance when it comes to sex is hugely detrimental to everyone. Um, and again, probably like what is one of the biggest things I want everyone to think about is the assumptions. You know, what are the assumptions that we're making about each other based on gender norms and expectations, based on historical messages?

Steven Bartlett 48:24 Mm-hmm.

Kate Moyle 48:25 How do we break away from them? And it might be that that's a conversation between those two people and that's the best way of doing it. But also there's, you know, all of these kind of so many of these ideas about sex are so steeped in history but we've never asked them, we've never had them challenged. So an assumption being, you know, a really historical message that we hear all the time, and it's something I hear all the time when I'm talking to people about like myths, you know, what are the sexual myths or what are the sexual rules that you think are kind of applicable to your sex life? A really common one is that men initiate sex.... like, men are the initiators of sex and women are the responders.

Steven Bartlett 49:01 Mm-hmm.

Kate Moyle 49:02 Now, how does that fit people then when they're like, "Oh, but that's not how it works for us"? Or, you know, a, for example, male partner, if we're talking about hetero norm- you know, heterosexual relationships, who is less confident and a female partner who is more confident, and so actually it's the other way around.

Steven Bartlett 49:22 Mm-hmm.

Kate Moyle 49:22 But then they're thinking, "Okay, but this isn't what we think everyone else is doing, so maybe there's a problem here," when there isn't, because that's what's working for them.

Steven Bartlett 49:33 And do you see big distinctions between the issues that heterosexual and, and homosexual relationships have?

Kate Moyle 49:40 I think that what same sex relationships don't battle with as much is the gender assumptions, the gender narratives, the gender norms, that kind of idea of, like, men do this and women do this. But, you know, there are also kind of every relationship struggles in some way with that dynamic of we're two individuals-

Steven Bartlett 50:04 Mm-hmm.

Kate Moyle 50:04 ... how do we work on our differences and our similarities together? That interrelational part which is what happens between us, you know, how, what are our triggers, what, how do we kind of, what makes us both anxious or what makes us both feel secure or what makes us both feel closer and also navigating that. You know, that, that's really the battle that all couples have.

Steven Bartlett 50:29 Again, super naive question, but I'm sure it's one of the most popular questions you get asked which is, like, is there a healthy amount of times for a couple to have sex per week or whatever? I used Fiver once a month before they became a sponsor on this podcast. And since they've become a, a sponsor on this podcast and I've delved into what the site does and how all the services work and the, the vast array of things that you can achieve on Fiver using freelancers around the world, I swear on this dog's life, Pablo, my dog here who sat on my lap if you can't see, I swear on his life that I've used Fiver at least once a week for the last three months. We've built so many websites, we've designed so many decks, we've had, um, video clips edited, we've had subtitles produced. If you haven't checked out Fiver before, hit the link in the bio, fiver.com/ceo, go to the, the website, check it out. And every single time I, I do this podcast, one person who DMs me with a service from Fiver that they need doing for their business, for their podcast, for whatever project they're working on, I will pay for that service to be done for you. So find a service on Fiver that you, you want done, send me a message, and one person every week will have that service paid for by me.

Steven Bartlett 51:41 Super naive question, but I'm sure it's one of the most popular questions you get asked which is, like, is there a healthy amount of times for a couple to have sex per week or whatever? And, you know, one would assume that changes over time. Right? Because I think, you know (laughs) , just judging by my relationships, it start, we start like fucking energizer bunny rabbits and then-

Kate Moyle 52:02 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 52:02 ... you know, life happens. (laughs)

Kate Moyle 52:05 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 52:05 But is there, you know, and I hate these questions because they're, again, they're so, like, un-nuanced and so, like, narrow, but is there a, an average amount of times that couples... you would, you know, if you had to answer this question and not swerve it, in this for the sake of nuance, what would the answer be?

Kate Moyle 52:23 I would like to know what you think the answer is.

Steven Bartlett 52:26 I think (sighs) a- a- again, context, like I'm, I'm gonna go into nuance in here, but context matters. Like, if you live on opposite sides of the world, then obviously-

Kate Moyle 52:34 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 52:34 ... there's, there's barriers, but if you're living in the same hou- if you're cohabiting, living in the same house, I'd think, like, at least twice a week.

Kate Moyle 52:41 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 52:42 You know? Once on the weekend, Tuesday.

Kate Moyle 52:45 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 52:45 I don't know.

Kate Moyle 52:47 But where, okay, so where do you think, um, that I dare if twice a week would comes from?

Steven Bartlett 52:53 Just looking at my schedule. (laughs)

Kate Moyle 52:56 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 52:56 Just like...

Kate Moyle 52:57 Wait, cause then-

Steven Bartlett 52:58 Or like where can I find time? Probably like once in the week and then- (laughs)

Kate Moyle 53:02 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 53:02 ... and then on the weekends I have a bit more time, so, um, yeah. But I mean, it obviously changes over time. I feel like I probably have sex every night, but if I, you know, but just energy levels and yeah.

Kate Moyle 53:15 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 53:15 What's the answer then?

Kate Moyle 53:16 So someone I, um, interviewed talked about the amount of sex we have is a red herring. So the kind of regularity of sex doesn't determine, like, the satisfaction of it or the kind of pleasure of it or the enjoyment of it. And I think what it feels like we've been trying to do is find an objective way of measuring sex. So it's this idea of, okay, well, we're all trying to find the answer to sex, like, how to be good at sex, like, what that looks like, how to know where we pitch ourselves against everyone else. And regularity is one of the only kind of objective measures we have of that, so it's the one that we kind of all lean into or we want-

Steven Bartlett 53:59 Yeah.

Kate Moyle 53:59 ... to know the answer to. Whereas what I would say is I don't think we do have an idea of I don't know what kind of modern, like, surveys say there's a big survey that's done, um, kind of every few years, but I haven't actually seen the results of that one yet. But-

Steven Bartlett 54:14 What about the monkeys? How often do they do it?

Kate Moyle 54:16 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 54:16 I feel like they, we're like 99% orangutans.

Kate Moyle 54:17 I haven't asked them. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 54:18 So what's, what are the orangutans doing?

Kate Moyle 54:21 (laughs) Um, I haven't got a clue.

Steven Bartlett 54:22 Okay, I need to find out.

Kate Moyle 54:24 Maybe our next guest?

Steven Bartlett 54:25 Yeah, absolutely, like a zoologist or something. So-

Kate Moyle 54:27 Um, but I think that the, the thing is, is working out again and what it, what we're looking for is a measure of, like, how we're doing-

Steven Bartlett 54:36 Yeah, performance.

Kate Moyle 54:36 ... by knowing that, um, answer. And I think one of the things is for some couples, it might be, as you said, they might kind of work in different countries, it might be every time they see each other, they have great sex and that's enough. Like, that's works for them. For other couples, it might be, "We have sex once a month and it's really good, you know, we're both enjoying ourselves and we feel like our needs are met, great." For other people, it might be once a week. You know, I think it's about determining, like-... what your normal is, or what your, what is right for you. But again, the kind of worries and anxieties and stresses come from A, we're not having enough sex. Why is that?

Steven Bartlett 55:16 Yeah.

Kate Moyle 55:17 You know, is it because my partner's no longer attracted to me? That tends to be the first thing people go to. You know, what's going on? Um, is it because our relationship isn't working? Is it... Well, when we don't have a clear kind of obvious answer, like, we've just had a baby, for example, um, so there's the assumptions that go with that. Why has sex changed? What's going on? But also the, well, everyone else is having sex once a week and we're having sex once a month.

Steven Bartlett 55:42 Mm-hmm.

Kate Moyle 55:42 So, that we must have a problem. There must be something wrong with us.

Steven Bartlett 55:48 Speaking of my ex-girlfriends, I feel like I've slightly thrown several of them under the bus, but I had another relationship. This is go- this goes back a little bit further where I just, like, fell in love with this girl in every oth- other aspect, non-sexual, so intellectually and every other way. And then when it came time to have sex, which was actually quite... a little bit later than it usually is in the relationships that I have, like three or four months into, into knowing this person, um, there was... I don't know how to say this 'cause it just sounds... I'll just go for it. Um, the v- (laughs) the...

Steven Bartlett 56:29 I tend to think, especially when it comes to, like, vaginal penetration, that... it's like a hand and a glove, and the hand and the glove didn't match. And again, I genuinely thought that I could have spent the rest of my life with this person, but I saw that as a, like, insurmountable object, like my penis didn't suit her vagina, and I thought, "We- well, I can't change, you know, can't change this." Um, yeah. Is this something that people come to you about?

Kate Moyle 57:03 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 57:04 Often they talk about, like, the-

Kate Moyle 57:06 Practicalities?

Steven Bartlett 57:07 ... the practicalities.

Kate Moyle 57:08 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 57:08 Like the hand and the glove.

Kate Moyle 57:10 Yeah. I think it is. And, you know, there are, for example, like, conditions that mean that people can't have sex for numerous reasons, so like sexual dysfunctions-

Steven Bartlett 57:21 Mm-hmm.

Kate Moyle 57:21 ... or, you know, particularly for women, there is a condition called vaginismus, which is where there's an involuntary contracting of the PC muscles, the pelvic floor muscles, where they're unable to have sex-

Steven Bartlett 57:31 Mm-hmm.

Kate Moyle 57:31 ... and that we think affects about one in 500 women. In no way am I saying that's necessarily-

Steven Bartlett 57:35 Sure.

Kate Moyle 57:35 ... what was happening here. But, you know, we also know that, that it's about how we work together as couples, how we work with bodies, what would make things more helpful, how we can look for kind of practical advice. But it's about understanding like, okay, how do we help ourselves here rather than, again, that assumption of like, something's going wrong.

Steven Bartlett 57:58 Mm-hmm. 'Cause it made me believe in this, like, idea of like there's a physical compatibility to sex as well, not just like a, a desire compatibility or like, you know, an ex- an experimentation compatibility, but there's like a physical, um, compatibility as well to having, like, good sex-

Kate Moyle 58:15 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 58:16 ... where you can just, like, physically not be compatible.

Kate Moyle 58:20 Mm-hmm. But I suppose it's then a wh- how do you, if you want to, like, explore working around a roadblock, you know, how do you kind of-

Steven Bartlett 58:31 Because that's something that's so hard to talk about.

Kate Moyle 58:33 ... build your sexual... Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 58:33 Like, I could never bring my... I could talk about the, um, libido issue with my partner, but I could never tell that partner that I wasn't... that I was basically turned off by our lack of physical compatibility. I could never mention it. So I ended up, the en- the relationships, I, we, I tried multiple times to, like, fix it in various ways, and I just couldn't bring myself to talk about it because I didn't wanna hurt the person, I didn't wanna say something that might hurt them and stay with them forever, so I, I ended the relationship on the grounds of something else. But that was fundamentally the issue. I've actually only had two relationships in my life where, like, sexual partners in my life that ended purely because of that. But yeah.

Kate Moyle 59:16 Mm-hmm. And I think it's so hard again, isn't it? Because we just don't know how to tackle these, these topics. As you say, like, how do we manage talking about something or exploring something that we just have no idea where even to start?

Steven Bartlett 59:33 And I don't wanna offend the person, which is, that must be, it must be a huge thing in the work that you do-

Kate Moyle 59:37 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 59:37 ... like not wanting to offend your partner because as you said, it's such a sensitive topic, and I don't know how I could have approached that situation without offending the person.

Kate Moyle 59:46 Mm-hmm. And I think that it's the fear of judgment, like the fear of offending, the fear of hurting our partners, the fear of us not being able to go back once we kind of... It feels a bit like Pandora's box for some people-

Steven Bartlett 59:56 Exactly.

Kate Moyle 59:56 ... like this idea of talking about sex in a relationship. You know, like, if I open this up, like, how do we close it? Or I think a lot of people have the fear of, "If I open this up, then every time we have sex-"

Steven Bartlett 1:00:10 Yeah.

Kate Moyle 1:00:10 "... we're both gonna be thinking about this-"

Steven Bartlett 1:00:12 And that's when we're aware of it.

Kate Moyle 1:00:12 "... and we're both gonna be completely in our heads." And what we know is when we're in completely in our heads when it comes to sex, we're not experiencing what's going on in our bodies.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:19 Oh my God.

Kate Moyle 1:00:19 And that is interrupting arousal, you know, the body's process of us kind of enjoying, you know, our body kind of working with us, the kind of sexual arousal process. And so, you know, our thoughts are as distracting as they're kind of being like someone in the room.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:34 Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Kate Moyle 1:00:35 That's not the person I'm having sex with or, you know, someone actually, like, walking in or kind of saying all of that stuff to us. Just because our thoughts are not a physically represented being doesn't mean they're not as distracting as something else.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:49 And you're completely right because from then on, I didn't say anything, but I carried on trying. I thought maybe, you know, one bad experience, whatever, we'll try again, we'll try again. And it got to the point where I was, I, I was almost avoiding sex because I knew that it was gonna be an issue, and I started to overthink. And as a guy-... overthinking is not what you want to be doing when you're trying to maintain (laughs) yourself.

Kate Moyle 1:01:16 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:16 So, I, um, so I started having issues g- k- keeping my erection up because I was just, I was walking in, I was getting into bed thinking, "Oh my god, here we fucking go again," and I've got to, you know, like, uh, "Are you gonna be able to get it up? Because you, you really don't enjoy this," and, and that all of that just became too much. I couldn't tell her because I didn't want to insult her and I was starting to have problems like, you know, being aroused because I, it was a big issue, and you're right, it's a snowball.

Kate Moyle 1:01:42 And performance anxiety is one of the key things that I work with with men because where there is not a physical kind of indicator or reason-

Steven Bartlett 1:01:53 Yeah.

Kate Moyle 1:01:53 ... for why they might be struggling, for example, with erections, because getting into your head too much, again, creates a speed bump for sexual arousal because when you're feeling stressed or you're feeling anxious, you're in that kind of fight-flight-freeze state. Your body is preparing not for you to kind of lie down and have sex and be comfortable and relaxed, but it's preparing for that kind of threat response, and that is not compatible with being sexual in that moment. So, in a way, your body's kind of working against you. And so what you have to do then is work on this kind of, like, frontal bit of your brain, you know, your thoughts.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:33 Yeah.

Kate Moyle 1:02:33 Like, focusing on that in order to, in a way, like, reprogram because sex has become not fun, exciting, pleasurable, connecting; it's become anxiety-provoking-

Steven Bartlett 1:02:46 (laughs) Yeah.

Kate Moyle 1:02:46 ... stressful, fearful, you know, don't wanna be here, would rather avoid. So in a way, the way I describe it a lot is the meaning of sex has changed, so the way we relate to it has changed.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:57 How does one give their partner good, positive, constructive feedback? Do you know what I mean? Like is there like a, a, a-

Kate Moyle 1:03:04 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:04 ...'Cause I'm sure there's, I was thinking then, I'm sure there's so many people listening to this that are in relationships that would like their sex to be slightly different.

Kate Moyle 1:03:13 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:14 And they, they probably, in the same way that I was anxious about approaching it with my ex-ex-ex-ex-girlfriend, um, what is the best way to approach these sensitive self-esteem-attached topics with your partner?

Kate Moyle 1:03:27 Not in the moment when you're having sex.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:29 Okay, interesting.

Kate Moyle 1:03:30 So not just kind of like in bed like just before, because also what you don't want to do is, you know, kind of create like a sen- a further sense of like stress or anxiety like in that sexual space.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:41 Mm-hmm.

Kate Moyle 1:03:42 So, what I always talk to people about is like leading with a positive, you know, like, "I really love our relationship, like I'm loving what we're doing, but maybe there's something we can work on here," or, "How can we do this better?" Or so leading with a positive, you know, that affirmation because if someone comes at you and, um, you know, we're often really sensitive to criticism also in our intimate relationships-

Steven Bartlett 1:04:04 Yeah, of course.

Kate Moyle 1:04:05 ... and this isn't good enough or you're not doing this or, our immediate response is defensive or attacking.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:13 Mm.

Kate Moyle 1:04:13 We're not open to hearing what they have to say. We're already like shut down before they've even got there. So, kind of approaching it with like that positive framework or like connecting framework or open framework, and also, "Let's work on this together. This is a shared venture, something that we want to do together, some, you know, something for us to think about, like how can we go about this?" Because what can also happen is we isolate the problem in one partner-

Steven Bartlett 1:04:40 Yeah.

Kate Moyle 1:04:40 ... when there are two of us there.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:43 Yeah. I guess, I guess a, another sort of attach to that would be just telling them what you, you like as opposed to what you don't like. So it's just like the same outcome but different framing. So it's like, "Oh, I like when you blindfold me," or, "I don't like when you don't blindf-" You know what I mean?

Kate Moyle 1:04:56 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:56 I'm just making it, I, I, pa- my, some of my sort of sexual partners that, uh, have given me positive feedback in the past have done so by telling me what they like-

Kate Moyle 1:05:06 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:06 ... more of.

Kate Moyle 1:05:07 'Cause then we can lean into that a bit more.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:08 Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Kate Moyle 1:05:10 And we all like to be told we're doing a good job.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:12 Good, yeah.

Kate Moyle 1:05:12 We all like to be affirmed. We all like to be-

Steven Bartlett 1:05:14 Yeah, especially in sex.

Kate Moyle 1:05:15 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:16 Yeah.

Kate Moyle 1:05:16 Because we don't have a reference point of-

Steven Bartlett 1:05:19 Yeah.

Kate Moyle 1:05:19 ... you know, are we doing a good job? And we feel, you know, if we think we are, you know, bad at sex, we, that's really personal.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:28 Yeah.

Kate Moyle 1:05:28 Isn't it? It's brutal. You know, that's really a difficult thing to hold onto, and then we go into our next sexual situation thinking, "I'm bad at this." And actually what that's more likely to do is make us struggle.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:41 Mm.

Kate Moyle 1:05:41 And actually when people are relaxed and comfortable and calm in those situations, they're able to connect with the other person more and we're kind of able to, I suppose, follow the pleasure path a bit more or kind of affirm each other a bit more and understand that actually if someone says, "Can you touch me here?" It's not because you weren't doing it the right way, it's just because that might be their preference. But we cannot be mind readers.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:05 Yeah.

Kate Moyle 1:06:05 We cannot know what our partner's like until we communicate that with them.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:10 That's such a fascinating thing as well that we never know if we're good at sex. We're just like kind of trusting our par- and especially 'cause you see all these movies and y- or you read these magazines about people faking orgasms. As a guy, I swear to God, the first couple of times someone said that I was like getting better whenever, I thought, "You're full of shit." I thought you say this to everybody." And then like I still, I still, and I've, I've heard that a few times, but whatever, but I still don't know. And that's crazy that like, with everything else, you have a fairly, um, accurate gauge of whether you're good at it, but because we've never seen like pretty m- well, sh-, really, we've never like seen anyone, um, doing it in real life or really got to observe it outside of the fakeness of porn, and you don't know how it feels for the other person, and sometimes you don't even know if they're faking it or if it's real, you kind, I th- uh, well, for me, in my mind, I'm like kind of float through life assuming you're doing okay until told otherwise.

Kate Moyle 1:07:06 Mm-hmm. But it also assumes that, here we go again, good at sex is a formula that you can apply across the board.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:14 Yeah, for everybody, yeah.

Kate Moyle 1:07:15 Like, it's-... every sexual experience is going to be different between those partners in that time-

Steven Bartlett 1:07:22 Mm-hmm.

Kate Moyle 1:07:22 ... in that moment, in that context. It is not, like, a universally applicable-

Steven Bartlett 1:07:27 Yeah, so true.

Kate Moyle 1:07:28 ... formula. Now, what we can do is we can-

Steven Bartlett 1:07:31 Ouch, I thought I was good. (laughs)

Kate Moyle 1:07:31 ... kind of (laughs) -

Steven Bartlett 1:07:33 (laughs)

Kate Moyle 1:07:35 Sorry, I just burst your bubble.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:36 But my ex said I was... (laughs)

Kate Moyle 1:07:39 (laughs) Um, you know, like, what we can do is we can feel more informed. We can make... You know, I consider a big part of my job to be helping people to make informed choices about their sexual wellness and well-being. So that might be, you know, thinking about the narratives that have shaped how they think about sex, thinking about their current definition of sex, thinking about sex education. How can they feel informed about things like anatomy, things like their body, their preferences, their likes? And the communication bit. How do I then communicate that with a partner? And all of that can contribute to better sexual self-confidence. And again, what we know is, like, sexual self-confidence is in that person. Again, it gets reflected back to them in situations with other people. But really, it's kind of all about that relationship with self, and I know that sounds very therapy and something that all therapists say, but it's really true because we put ourselves in those sexual contexts, in those sexual situations. For some people, they might never struggle with sex. They might have kind of muddled through, you know, like, trial and error, worked it out, kind of, and always... and be okay. And they're satisfied, and that's great. But for some people, they do struggle. For some people, they have a period of normal sexual functioning, and then they start to struggle, and it might be that they've never thought about sex really before until they feel like they have to. So again, there's no kind of one route-

Steven Bartlett 1:09:03 Mm-hmm.

Kate Moyle 1:09:04 ... to all of this. And although there are themes, for example, in the conversations that I have with people, everyone has their own journey, their own story, their own experiences that have shaped that. And some of it can start in, you know, the playground, like playground banter about what sex is like. But at a younger age when we're quite impressionable and that sounds really scary-

Steven Bartlett 1:09:25 Mm-hmm.

Kate Moyle 1:09:26 ... what people are talking about, we can kind of carry that with us (laughs) and then it presents further down the line. Or we might have had a negative sexual experience early, which means that we then don't want to try again, and so we hold onto that negative experience because we've had no, in a way, like, challenging or corrective or other more positive experiences which can go against those ideas.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:50 We're ever-evolving, you know, humans and people and we're, we're changing in every way, uh, you know, mentally, physically. I think one of the things that has... I'm just gonna be honest because I think that's just the point. I think, I think when I'm honest, I think I resonate with more people. One of the things that I'm slightly concerned about is that at some point in my life, I'll fall in love with somebody and the sex will be great and everything, and then me or them will change, in that we could change in a variety of different ways, whether it's our desire, but, but mo- m- moreso, even, like, I'm, we might not be attracted to each other anymore. Uh, I might, you know, deteriorate in some form, and I wonder

Steven Bartlett 1:10:31 how much of an issue that, like, two people changing and falling out of attraction with each other is, um, prevalent in the work that you do and the p- and the people that, you know, come to you for therapy and for advice.

Kate Moyle 1:10:44 I think it is. It's not probably the most prevalent thing I deal with, but also what you're basing that on is an assumption that that's not something that can be worked at.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:53 Yeah.

Kate Moyle 1:10:53 It's not something that people accept when they are in a relationship with each other, or that they... You know, I think it goes back to that relationships moving in stages and phases bit as well.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:05 Mm-hmm.

Kate Moyle 1:11:05 And I think there's, that's that fear of, like, things not always staying the same. Whereas, actually, what I would say is if we accept that things don't always stay the same, then we can change and work with that and accept it and improve it or adapt. You know, as humans, we're really, really adaptable. But we want to feel encouraged in that rather than, I suppose, kind of put off or challenged by the fact that we need to.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:32 In the world we live in now, there's just this incredible, like, per- pers- perception of choice, I'd say.

Kate Moyle 1:11:38 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:38 Like, moreso than when my grandparents were around. I imagine their dating, their sort of circle of possible matches extended to the, like, the size of their, like, street or village.

Kate Moyle 1:11:45 Didn't have Tinder.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:46 Yeah, exactly. They didn't have Tinder or Instagram. But now in my relationships, if, like, if it's not going well, I've got apparently a gazillion people right here that are perfect. They're all filtered. And I think a c- you know, 32,000 of them just like my photo.

Kate Moyle 1:12:02 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:12:03 So if I lose attraction with my partner, in the world we live in now where we've got this huge sort of per- perceived amount of choice-

Kate Moyle 1:12:10 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:11 ... and accessibility, just one swipe-

Kate Moyle 1:12:13 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:13 ... you know, it must make holding relationships together at times when they hit, you know, rocks more difficult than ever before, no?

Kate Moyle 1:12:21 Yeah, I think that there are often ideas that, like, the grass is always greener. But equally, we understand that relationships take work.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:30 Mm-hmm.

Kate Moyle 1:12:31 And I think, you know, we, we've seen a, a breakdown of norms. We've seen that, you know, divorce rates are at an all-time high, but it's not the same stigma that it used to be, that kind of people changing their models of relationships or changing relationships is not kind of such a, a big thing. But also something that I think is important to say is just because a relationship has ended doesn't mean that in itself it wasn't successful, and I think that's another thing that we need to, sort of like, to reframe. You know, people can be in a relationship for 10 years and it ends. That doesn't mean that relationship failed or was a failure.

Steven Bartlett 1:13:07 Mm-hmm.

Kate Moyle 1:13:07 It might have been for that person at that time.

Steven Bartlett 1:13:11 This is part of the issue, in my view, with marriage. Because marriage, you say, "'Til death do us part." But we all know that if there's, the only constant is change, we're all gonna change, so how can you...... honestly make a commitment that you're gonna stay with this person, or why would you want to, until death, knowing that you're both gonna change in various ways that are yet to be seen?

Kate Moyle 1:13:33 But can't you also change together in a positive way?

Steven Bartlett 1:13:36 You can. Like, I think, I think people are moving, they can move, if you think about it, it's like two parallel lines.

Kate Moyle 1:13:43 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:13:43 They can go, they could be slightly tilted one degree, uh, to the, the right, which means that in 10 years time, they'll be too far apart. Or they could be slight- one degree to the left, which means that in 10 years time, they'll be closer together.

Kate Moyle 1:13:55 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:13:55 Um, or they could be perfectly straight, right, so perfectly parallel, which means that in 10 years time, they'll be the same, they'll resonate in the same way, they'll be as close, you know, whatever. But you don't know that yet. So I think that that's why I've always been slightly let down at, by the concept of marriage because I think, you know, you can't predict the future, so why would you wanna make something like that so final? Um, and

Steven Bartlett 1:14:20 I've, I've al- I think, like, uh, you know the Men in Black? Have you seen Men in Black?

Kate Moyle 1:14:23 Oh, God, a long time ago.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:24 Where they get the pen and they g- they hold it up and if they press the button on the pen, basically it erases your memory? I sometimes think, I think if, if we held that pen up to the world and erased everybody's memory, what are the things that would come back?

Kate Moyle 1:14:35 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:35 Like, science would come back. Religion would never come back the same. We wouldn't, it wouldn't come back the same, right? Science, w- we'd figure all the same things out, the same experiments. Marriage, I'm like, no, it wouldn't come back the same. Not in 2021. I don't think that would come back the same. Um, I think we'd have a much more bespoke, open, flexible form of marriage that would involve less of the law and would involve less of the Church. Um, and I probably think would be a little bit more effective. So I guess my question is about marriage. What do you think about marriage? Are you married?

Kate Moyle 1:15:08 I am married. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:15:09 Yes, you're married. Yeah. So, okay, we'll-

Kate Moyle 1:15:11 Careful what I say.

Steven Bartlett 1:15:11 ... we'll cut now.

Kate Moyle 1:15:12 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:15:13 And get your real opinion.

Kate Moyle 1:15:14 You know, I think that it's, what, what does it offer people? You know, like, what are people looking for? And I think, y- for a lot of people, it's security. You know, and it's really-

Steven Bartlett 1:15:22 Is that a form of insecurity though? Like, I think sec- I tend to, I'm gonna play devil's advocate here, okay?

Kate Moyle 1:15:26 Yeah, do.

Steven Bartlett 1:15:27 Because I think if you were looking for security from, like, a legal contract, I'm like, then th- that, for me, speaks to a little bit of insecurity somewhere else.

Kate Moyle 1:15:34 Mm. But I think it's also about, you know, I suppose marriage has been the norm, right?

Steven Bartlett 1:15:39 Yeah.

Kate Moyle 1:15:39 Historically, it's always been the norm. It's always been also considered the gold standard or, like, what we should-

Steven Bartlett 1:15:45 Mm.

Kate Moyle 1:15:45 ... kind of aspire-

Steven Bartlett 1:15:46 Mm.

Kate Moyle 1:15:46 ... to be or aim for. And I think that, again, you know, that kind of that impact of history, like us doing the things that we've always done, but it is an institution and a lot of people subscribe to that. Now, what we see now is that people can be married