James Sexton: Why divorce starts with slippage, not crisis

1. 0:00 – 3:01

   Intro

   1. SBSteven Bartlett0:00

      If you had to give one relationship ritual to stay in love, what would that be?

   2. JSJames Sexton0:04

      Once a week, tell your partner three things that you love about them and three things they could have done better.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett0:09

      But some people are thinking, "Well, and if I told Dave that we're gonna start writing these notes to each other, he's gonna cringe and not gonna do it."

   4. JSJames Sexton0:14

      Bull [censored] ! H- honestly, Dave can't name three things he likes about you? Really, Dave, is that a big ask? I absolutely call [censored] on that. The bigger question is: What's uncomfortable about that for you? And look, I'm not a therapist. I'm a divorce lawyer. I represent some of the most high-achieving minds, athletes, entrepreneurs, and they're just as bad at this as anybody because there's a part of us that's afraid to poke at, "What do you love about me? What am I getting wrong?" And it's not just romantic relationships. Like, my mom died ten years ago after a long battle with cancer. [gentle music] There was a lot between us that needed to be said and wasn't said. And there's a part of me that wishes she was here so that I could have apologized for some things I got wrong, but we don't do that. Because people just don't want temporary discomfort. And so I think there's something deeply courageous about love, about commitment, about saying, "I'm gonna give them the opportunity to hurt me. Like, it's scary, but I'm brave." You know, your marriage will end. It ends in death or divorce. And for two people at the end of their relationship to say, "This person helped me become the most authentic version of myself," that's the greatest gift you could give to another human being.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett1:31

      As you can see from this photo, I just proposed to my fiancée, and I'd like some advice on how not to mess this up. Like, if my fiancée ends up walking into your practice, what is the reason she's likely to end up there?

   6. JSJames Sexton1:43

      The number one reason that I'm gonna have a woman sitting across from me divorcing someone who's a great provider, a great protector, is-

   7. SBSteven Bartlett1:52

      That is not obvious to everybody.

   8. JSJames Sexton1:54

      And it'll keep me in business for the rest of my life.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett1:59

      [inhales] Guys, I've got a quick favor to ask you. We're approaching a significant subscriber milestone on this show, and roughly sixty-nine percent of you that listen and love this show haven't yet subscribed for whatever reason. If there was ever a time for you to do us a favor, if we've ever done anything for you, given you value in any way, it is simply hitting that Subscribe button. And it means so much to myself, but also to my team, because when we hit these milestones, we go away as a team and celebrate. And it's the thing, the simple, free, easy thing you can do to help make this show a little bit better every single week. So that's a favor I would ask you. And, um, if you do hit the Subscribe button, I won't let you down, and we'll continue to find small ways to make this whole production better. Thank you so much for being part of this journey. It means the world, and, uh, yeah, let's do this. [upbeat music] James, as you can see from this photo, I just proposed to my fiancée, and gladly, she said yes. So I've brought you here in part because I'd like some advice on how not to mess this up, because I know from speaking to you previously-

   10. JSJames Sexton3:00

       Yeah

2. 3:01 – 6:42

   How to Avoid Ending Up in Divorce

   1. SBSteven Bartlett3:01

      ... about fifty percent of people that get down on their knee end up messing it up in some way. Before we get into this, though-

   2. JSJames Sexton3:06

      Yeah

   3. SBSteven Bartlett3:07

      ... and before you help me figure out how to stay in love and not mess it up-

   4. JSJames Sexton3:09

      Yeah

   5. SBSteven Bartlett3:10

      ... where do you find us at as it relates to love as a society? If you were to zoom out and diagnose society's relationship with the subject of love and their, um, ability to keep it, find it, and understand it, where are we?

   6. JSJames Sexton3:25

      I think we- we're in this really uncomfortable moment as a culture. I think we, we want, more than anything, to feel real connection. I think we're sick of just looking at screens. I think we came out of the pandemic with a feeling of, "Okay, I want to be in the world with other people and feel the warmth of real people." And yet we have an increasingly lower number of useful tools in l- finding connection and staying connected, which are two totally different skills, and yet we're yearning for it more than ever. So we're more hungry than we've ever been, and we have no idea how to cook.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett4:09

      In your head, because you've seen so many people go through divorce-

   8. JSJames Sexton4:12

      Yeah

   9. SBSteven Bartlett4:12

      ... and relationships fail-

   10. JSJames Sexton4:14

       Yeah

   11. SBSteven Bartlett4:14

       ... there must be a sort of checklist of things that I'm likely to mess up.

   12. JSJames Sexton4:18

       Yeah, I mean, well, you know, first of all, when I, when I knew you... you know, heard you got engaged, I was thrilled-

   13. SBSteven Bartlett4:24

       Why?

   14. JSJames Sexton4:25

       ... because I'm always cheering for people. I really am. I'm always cheering for love. And so I think in our prior conversations, you're obviously someone who loves very deeply, and, and the fact that you found this person, you know, to me, is the most lovely thing. You know, I, I think at its core, this is your favorite person. I just can't think of anything more lovely than that. Like, the idea that you would look at a person and go, "You're my favorite person," and, and that person would look at you and say, "You're my favorite person," and that you would know that it's true, like, when they say it, that it's true. Like, that, that feels to me like something worth pursuing. That feels like something that if I tried to get it and I failed, I'd try again because if you could find it, it's just about the greatest thing in the world. Like, the, the thought to me that, you know, I, I, I won't get to give a toast at your wedding, but I will say that if I was going to give the toast, it would be that there are two wishes I have for you. You know, your marriage will end. I mean, I've said it to you before in one of our first conversations, every marriage ends. It ends in death or divorce. I hope yours ends in death, and I hope when it ends in death, that... Let's send you off first, that when you're dying, that she will say, hopefully to you or to those around, "You helped me become the most authentic version of myself, and you're still my favorite person." Because I can't think of a greater blessing than that. Like, for two people at the end of their life, at the end of their relationship, to say, "This person helped me become the most authentic version of myself, and they're still my favorite person," that's the greatest gift you could give to another human being, I think. And I like the idea-... that even in the face of knowing that this is risky, this is something that may not work, this is something that statistically the odds are against, but I'm gonna give it a shot because, you know, there's something it adds to my life, and there's something I add to her life, and, you know, we're gonna, we're gonna give it a shot. I don't know. I, I found that very beautiful.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett6:31

       As a divorce lawyer who's also a very big fan of love, do you ever find yourself trying to get someone not to get a divorce? Has there ever been an instance where you, you looked at the situation and thought, "Do you know what?

3. 6:42 – 11:04

   When to Give a Relationship a Second Chance And When to Walk Away

   1. SBSteven Bartlett6:42

      They should just get back together"?

   2. JSJames Sexton6:44

      Yeah, I- what I'll say is, my first thought is often, is this person accurately perceiving the situation that they're in? So people will come in, and they'll say... You know, it really- people come to me in very different situations. So sometimes people will come to me, and they're, they're- they've been served with divorce papers, like the marriage is over. And now it's about, okay, we have to react defensively. So, I, you know, when people come to my office, the situation is often so dire and so broken that they're coming in to hire me for that specific purpose. But I will say, without question, that if I get any sense that this person would either, A, benefit from individual therapy that might help them view the relationship differently and come to the relationship differently, I will not hesitate to refer them. And then there are people that, and it's more common than you'd think, that something awful has happened in the relationship. They had an affair and got caught. They caught their spouse having an affair. Uh, they've lost their job, and it created tremendous discord in their relationship. And that often will feel to me like something that perhaps would benefit from the intervention of mental health professionals, or everyone just taking a breath and taking a minute, especially when there's kids involved, but even when there aren't.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett8:05

      Are your clients predominantly men or women?

   4. JSJames Sexton8:07

      It's pretty much an even split.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett8:08

      Really?

   6. JSJames Sexton8:09

      Yeah. I represent a lot of either very high-achieving, high-net-worth individuals or people married to them.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett8:17

      And are the reasons that they come to you, those two different groups-

   8. JSJames Sexton8:20

      Yeah

   9. SBSteven Bartlett8:20

      ... different? Like, the reason why they want a separation, is it fundamentally different?

   10. JSJames Sexton8:26

       So the specific example of cheating, I would say men get caught cheating more often than women.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett8:33

       Does that mean they cheat more?

   12. JSJames Sexton8:35

       No, it means they get caught cheating more. I, I don't think that anyone could really, truly accurately say... You know, I know people love statistics, and I know that, that, you know, guests have a tendency to come on and say, "Well, seventy-two percent of people who are ma-" Everything I'm saying is based on what I've observed in twenty-five years of facilitating the demise of marriages. Men and women both cheat. Men cheat in just more scattershot, stupid ways than women do. When women cheat, in my experience professionally, it's usually an indication of, like, the- it's the absolute end of this relationship. The relationship is over, and this is either a soft place to land, or it's sort of a final opportunity for this person to solidify, this woman to solidify in her head that, yeah, this thing is over. Whereas men, I, I've really had hundreds at this point of men sit across from me who've been caught in an affair or sense that they're about to get caught in an affair, and they say to me, like, "Yeah, this had nothing to do with my wife. Like, I love my wife. It had nothing to do with that. It just... I don't know. I just, I don't know why I did what I did. I just did it." And I, I know everyone kind of wants to, 'cause in civilized society, it feels good to kind of go like, "Oh, I can't believe that. That's- How could someone say that?" But shut up. Like, if you have, you have potato chips in your cabinet, you know, you, you, you know that you're not supposed to eat them. You don't want to eat them. You want vibrant, good health. You want to take care of you, but they're there. They're there, and you're human. And like, I can control my food environment better than my brain. Like, I have a lot of resolve when I wake up in the morning, but at about seven, eight o'clock at night, when I'm a little bit tired, and it's been a long day, and I deserve something nice, if the potato chips are there, I'm eating the potato chips. Like, we're human. We're human. There are times where we're just feeling lonely or hungry or angry or tired or some combination of those factors, and this warm thing, like the connection to another person, the f- the joy of flirtation, the excitement of, of feeling the energy between yourself and whatever it is type of person that you're attracted to, I think it's very normal. And then the problem becomes that you're not thinking about the consequences of those things. If you were thinking about the consequences of those things, you'd make better choices. But we all know that discipline is trading what you want now for what you want most, and sometimes it's hard to remember what you want most and to keep it in

4. 11:04 – 25:50

   Why Prioritizing Your Partner Changes Everything

   1. JSJames Sexton11:04

      your line of sight.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett11:04

      So from your experience, you know, if my fiancée someday ends up walking into your practice, what is the reason she's likely to end up there, from her perspective, asking you to help her get out of the relationship with me?

   3. JSJames Sexton11:19

      The most obvious, if you're gonna be like the most, the average, the statistical average, it would be that you've stopped seeing her and stopped noticing her. In, in the list of things that are important to Steven, that she's somewhere in the middle to bottom of that list. Like, for, for a high achiever like you, for someone who's entrepreneurial in the manner that you are, for someone who, you know, lives the kind of lifestyle that you do, where you're on this coast one day, in this country another day, and flying here on a moment's notice and getting invitations to interesting things, and you have to triage because you couldn't possibly do all the things that you'd like to do, it usually would be that she just feels herself slipping in the rankings. And I think that that is often not a function of what you're d- like, that lifestyle I just described. It's a function of where you take time to fit her into that. Because I genuinely have found tremendous number of examples of people who, and this is in the relationship work, who have that level of intensity in their life and that level of chaos in their schedule, and it's unpredictable, but they have that ability every morning-... or every afternoon, or every once in a while, but consistently to say: "Hey, I have a minute between recordings. I just wanted you to know I was thinking of you." Or, "Hey, you know, I heard that song when I was in the car from here to here, and it makes me think of you, and I can't wait to see you next week." You know, something like that, to me, like, how hard is that? By the way, doesn't have to be like a global lifestyle. It could even be, "Hey, we got a couple of kids and two dogs, and, you know, my, my mom is sick, and I gotta tend to her, so I'm super busy." But how do you let your partner know, "Hey, you're still really important. We're still really connected to each other"? 'Cause that's the number one complaint, that's the number one reason, particularly with women, that I'm gonna have a woman sitting across from me divorcing someone who's a great provider, a great protector, great all of those things.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett13:17

      That is not obvious to everybody. [chuckles] And I, I'll be honest, it's not, it wasn't necessarily obvious to me. The way that I operate naturally, and this is just the way that I am... I've spoken to so many of my friends to understand how they operate, and w- the way that their brain works, is when I'm here, the only thing I'm thinking about is this.

   5. JSJames Sexton13:35

      Good.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett13:35

      And I almost... I'm remarkable at forgetting everything else-

   7. JSJames Sexton13:39

      Mm.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett13:39

      -and, and being completely here.

   9. JSJames Sexton13:41

      Good.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett13:41

       Now, that sounds like a good thing, but it also means that I can lose 14 hours and forget to, to check in.

   11. JSJames Sexton13:48

       Yeah.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett13:48

       I can forget, you know-

   13. JSJames Sexton13:49

       Yeah. Is it, is it also true when you're with her?

   14. SBSteven Bartlett13:52

       Yes, when we have scheduled the time.

   15. JSJames Sexton13:56

       Good. Good.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett13:56

       So, you know, when we schedule the time to go and do something together-

   17. JSJames Sexton13:59

       Yeah

   18. SBSteven Bartlett13:59

       ... I'm, I'm there. I'm not on my phone. I'm not doing anything else.

   19. JSJames Sexton14:01

       Good. Good. I think that's a tremendous priority.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett14:03

       That's one way.

   21. JSJames Sexton14:03

       I'm hearing more and more from people the feeling of, "Yeah, we're together, but we're not together." We're sitting there, and they're on their phone or they're doing other things, and I think that it's really, really important that one of the really important aspects of relationship be that there is time where you give each other that level of focus. But again, you know, like, it's just not something we are necessarily taught. We have- maybe we have our parents as models, but very often they're, they're not good models.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett14:34

       Well, what's interesting here as well is, for some reason, I've chosen someone who's, like, the opposite of me in terms of the way that I am.

   23. JSJames Sexton14:40

       I think partly because she's the opposite of you.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett14:41

       Probably. Yeah, probably. And when I've spoken to some of my friends who are quite like me, they've also chosen partners who are the opposite of them.

   25. JSJames Sexton14:46

       Could you imagine?

   26. SBSteven Bartlett14:47

       I know. I-

   27. JSJames Sexton14:48

       Could you imagine two of you? Like, imagine me with me, you know, you with you. That would, like, it would be so intense.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett14:54

       But this is why it becomes so easy to misunderstand because we go through life assuming the other person has the same perspective as we do-

   29. JSJames Sexton15:02

       Mm

   30. SBSteven Bartlett15:02

       ... and they feel the same way that we do about things, and-
5. 25:50 – 31:01

   What Really Happens When Love Starts to Fade

   1. JSJames Sexton25:50

      feel alone.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett25:50

      We would have lost the plot.

   3. JSJames Sexton25:52

      Yeah. Yeah, you would have lost the plot of the story. I- so this is a story. Where does this story go? Where do you want it to go? You want it to go to a future that features the two of you old together someday. Maybe it features children. Maybe it features companion animals.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett26:09

      And what, what is the most likely reason that we would lose the plot?

   5. JSJames Sexton26:12

      You stop paying attention.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett26:14

      Is this what-

   7. JSJames Sexton26:15

      You stop, you stop doing what you're currently doing. How did you get to this beautiful moment? You start doing the opposite. You got to this moment by paying attention. You got to this moment by making this a priority. You got to this moment by, by keeping this front of mind, by valuing... What is this but a symbol of, "You are valuable to me"? Why did you get on one knee? Why do you get on one knee? I mean, think about the symbols of all of this. We live in a world of symbols. Like, the outfit I'm wearing, I'm saying something to you: "I take this seriously." That's why you wear a suit, is you wear a suit to say, "I take this seriously." So what- why did you do this? What is this a symbol of? I'm down on one knee. Why? I'm humbling myself in front of you. I'm offering something to you. I'm hoping you will accept the gift I am giving to you. Like, there's something very lovely about that symbol. And-

   8. SBSteven Bartlett27:06

      Is this, is this what you call slippage?

   9. JSJames Sexton27:09

      Slippage is exactly when you start to unintentionally... Again, people rarely have slippage intentionally. It's usually that, "Okay, we got that knocked out. Now [exhales] we can focus on the other stuff," and that's slippage. Slippage is these small disconnections, small disconnections that in of themselves mean nothing. Like, no single raindrop's responsible for the flood. That little raindrop, it's just a little raindrop. That's all it really is. But slippage is this gradually increasing number of small disconnections that eventually leads to the giant marriage killer, that you come in and say, "Here's why we're getting divorced." But it wasn't that, it, it was all these little pieces. But at some point, you were there.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett28:02

       Do you think people spot the slippage in the moment, but they don't think it's big enough to fight about or do something about?

   11. JSJames Sexton28:08

       A hundred percent, and that's, that's the cognitive bias, that's the fallacy that will keep me in business for the rest of my life because people just don't want temporary discomfort. Like, our desire for joy versus our aversion to pain, our aversion to pain will win every single time. We know this. That's why there was an opiate crisis more so than a cocaine crisis. 'Cause one of those things is about making you feel really good, and the other is about getting rid of pain. Like, the, the human desire... Any scientist will tell you this. Ask our friend Andrew Huberman. Ask anybody. They will tell you, the human desire to escape pain is the controlling aspect of self. So s- escaping pain, even discomfort, even discom- and again, this is, this is pushed by the narrative that love should be easy. If you're gonna make- if anything's uncomfortable about it, you must be doing it wrong. Maybe you're not with your soulmate. You know, it would be so easy and effortless, you'd always know what the other person wanted. You'd never have to tell them. They would know. They would know you well enough to know what it is that you need, and they would get you. Even though, by the way, really? Really? Like, I'm fifty-three years old. I've been in therapy for twenty years. I get, like, seventy percent of this guy, I think, like, at best. Like, and I'm in here. I'm in here, and I get about seventy percent of this guy. Like, and I'm supposed to get you a hundred percent 'cause we're exchanging bodily fluids? Like, we're- I'm supposed to just... 'Cause we've slept in the same bed, I'm supposed to get you a hundred percent and get ahead of stuff? Like, I get me seventy percent, and that's with a lot of reflection. So I, I really think that it's wildly unfair for us to, to, to think that, you know, this should be effortless, this should be easy, and that it should never be uncomfortable. It's okay to be... Like, I, I think, because of what I do for a living, I have to tell people things they don't wanna hear all day, 'cause it's true, and I tell them what they need to hear, not what they wanna hear. And, you know, when clients say to me at the end of a consultation or conversation, like, "Oh, my God, I feel so much better," I always go, "That's great. That wasn't my intention." Because I don't want anyone I talk to professionally to think I am telling you something to make you feel better. I'm not here to make you feel better. I'm not a therapist. I'm here to tell you the truth, and if the truth makes you feel better, great.... If the truth makes you uncomfortable, at least you know the truth now. So I feel like in relationship, again, if what you want most is lasting, lifelong connection, where we get each other as best we can, we can help each other navigate self and each other as best we can, and we cannot lose the plot of a story that is really beautiful right now.

6. 31:01 – 41:21

   What to Do When the Relationship Is Falling Apart

   1. SBSteven Bartlett31:01

      So everybody listening can probably think about something in their relationship which has gotten a little bit worse-

   2. JSJames Sexton31:07

      Yeah

   3. SBSteven Bartlett31:08

      ... since they first got into that relationship.

   4. JSJames Sexton31:10

      Yeah.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett31:10

      And it could be the way that they argue-

   6. JSJames Sexton31:14

      Sure

   7. SBSteven Bartlett31:14

      ... is getting a little bit-

   8. JSJames Sexton31:15

      Sure

   9. SBSteven Bartlett31:15

      ... worse. They're not listening as much.

   10. JSJames Sexton31:16

       Yeah.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett31:17

       Maybe their voice, the, the tone has gone up, or it's getting a little bit more angry.

   12. JSJames Sexton31:21

       Yeah.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett31:21

       Um, whatever it is in their relationship-

   14. JSJames Sexton31:23

       Yeah

   15. SBSteven Bartlett31:23

       ... what do they need to do now? It's like it's not flooded yet.

   16. JSJames Sexton31:27

       Yeah.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett31:27

       But there's a puddle.

   18. JSJames Sexton31:28

       Best time to look at it. Best time to talk about it.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett31:30

       There's a puddle.

   20. JSJames Sexton31:31

       So what I do for a living in court is I try to manipulate people's emotional state. That's my job. Like, my job is to go and make the judge like my client, dislike the other side. I want the other side to feel scared. I want my client to feel safe. I want the court reporter who's taking things down and the court officer to like me and to like my client, so that when we take a break in testimony, and they go in the back with the judge, they go, "I like Jim. He's a really good lawyer," or, "Oh, his client seems so nice," or, "Boy, the other guy seems like a jerk," or, "Boy, that other lawyer's a jerk." Like, so I'm here manipulating people's emotional state. That's my job. Like, that's what a trial lawyer does. We manipulate people's emotional state. We play with the levers, right? So I say this as to say, w- we should be doing this in our relationships. There's nothing nefarious about that. These are tools, and how you use them will, will give you a sense of whether it's good or bad or whatever. Look, if what you are doing is to maintain connection, how you parse it is going to be everything. So even the way you just said that, like, "Well, something's kind of going wrong in the relationship," okay, we're already off to the wrong narrative. Because when someone tells you something's been done wrong, there's this automatic defensive response of, "Well, I didn't mean to do it wrong," and, "Well, I, you know, it's not my fault that I did it wrong." It brings out something defensive in us. Rather than saying, "Something's changed. Have you noticed that something changed? Have you noticed that... Remember when we used to talk to each other about, you know, sometimes, like... And I don't know if it's something that I've done, and if it is, you know, I, I, I really would appreciate you telling me. But, like, when we have been fighting lately, like, the, the tone seems to have changed. Have you noticed that? Is it just me?" I- now, it's a non-defensive dialogue. I'm not accusing you of something. I'm noting that something has changed, and by the way, good! We love each... Look at how much we love each other in that picture. Like, look at... Put the wedding photos up somewhere. Look at that moment. We were nuts about each other in that moment. We were everything the other person ever wanted and more. So any time something has changed from that, don't you wanna know? Don't you wanna know? And by the way, not in an accusatory fashion. The most common one is, "We're not having sex as much as we used to. We're not having sex as we used to. We're not having much sex. I'm not getting as much oral sex as I used to get. We're not getting..." Okay, there's a way to say that, the way I just said it, that's just gonna blow up in your face. It's not gonna work because it's, "Well, well, you haven't been around as much." "Well, I haven't been around as much because I'm working so much, and I don't see you spending less." "Well, you know, honestly, if it comes down to that, I'd spend a lot to not have you treat me this way." Now we're just having a fight. Whereas if we say like, "Oh, remember how clo- remember when we went away? I was just thinking yesterday about when we went away that weekend. Remember, we ended up not even leaving the room. It was so fun. I love when we're, like, feeling that connected and close. You know, I feel like, I feel like lately, sometimes, like, we're maybe not as connected and close. Like, and if there's something I'm, I'm doing that's making that, like, I, I really wanna get it right. Like, I really wanna get it right." You know, there's something about apologizing first, like having some humility in relationship, that has tremendous value. Like, when a lawyer... Like, I'll, I'll tell you one of my trade secrets. You know, I... My job is a very combative job sometimes. So there's times where being very aggressive is the right move, but there's times where being aggressive just doesn't accomplish anything. And if I'm interacting with a lawyer for the first time, this is someone I haven't had cases with, so we don't know each other except by reputation, and they come at me really hard, the first thing I'll do is apologize. I'll say, "You know, I, I, I'm sorry, I just have to say, like, your tone, like, you're coming at me. Like, if, if I said something in our initial interaction that made you feel like that I didn't have respect for you or that, you know, I didn't value your perspective or like, it... I have a tendency to interrupt people sometimes. I have a tendency to... So if I offended you, I apologize. Because the way that you're kinda talking to me, like, I feel like I must have said something wrong or I must have... So I apologize, absolutely, if I did." What is the pr- what choice do they have but to then go, "Oh, no, no, that's, that's just my tone. That's just how I... Oh, yeah, well, of course. Look, hey, we all have a game face or thing. I just felt like, oh, my God, like, this guy's coming at me so hard. Like, I, I felt like I must have said something inadvertently or, you know..." And, and, and then everyone's kind of calmer now, you know? So I think that this is a very easy way to invite discussion about these small, preventative maintenance things without turning it into a whole... Like, because we, again, we just think that, "Oh, if I bring that up, it's gonna turn into a whole thing." It doesn't have to turn into a whole thing, period.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett36:06

       Yeah, I think I asked that in part because I... It's something that I, I've, like, subtly noticed, that when we were- when we first met seven years ago, we were much more patient. [chuckles]

   22. JSJames Sexton36:16

       Yeah.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett36:16

       And I'm like, I probably need to have a conversation about returning to being more patient when we're trying to solve problems. We kinda like rush through them now, and I just-

   24. JSJames Sexton36:25

       Mm.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett36:25

       ... I'm like, "Oh, you play this forward."

   26. JSJames Sexton36:26

       Mm.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett36:27

       You play this forward a decade or two decades, I'm like-

   28. JSJames Sexton36:29

       Yeah

   29. SBSteven Bartlett36:29

       ... "Damn, we're really not gonna be great at solving problems-

   30. JSJames Sexton36:31

       Yeah
7. 41:21 – 50:05

   The One Ritual Every Couple Needs to Strengthen Their Bond

   1. SBSteven Bartlett41:21

      If you had to give everybody listening one relationship ritual that you would think would most increase the probability that they stay together, stay in love-

   2. JSJames Sexton41:32

      Mm

   3. SBSteven Bartlett41:32

      ... what would that r- relationship ritual be?

   4. JSJames Sexton41:36

      I think that once a week, you should make a specific task of telling your partner three things that you really like about them, and every week, it should be something different. I think you should tell your partner... If you really wanna, wanna take the advanced edition of this, if you wanna turn it from a 30-second task into, like, a whole five minutes that you devote to your relationship... You know, I feel about relationship maintenance the way that, I don't know if you've ever heard this story, I think the Dalai Lama is the one credited with saying it. So that's that a high, high-end executive, you know, paid a colossal amount of money to have a private audience with the Dalai Lama. And the Dalai Lama said to him, "You know, um, if you're searching for inner peace, you should meditate for 15 minutes a day." And the executive said, "I don't have 15 minutes a day to meditate." And he said, "Then you should meditate for an hour a day." [chuckles] I feel the same way. If you don't have five minutes a week to devote to your spouse or partner, then you're gonna need hours. I think you should actually set aside hours. Like, five minutes a week, I would suggest the following exact sys- just systematic, basic thing. This is what my next book is about. It's about a systematic approach to being good at love, and the idea is-... once a week, I think here's the advanced version, but minimum, just write down, send an email, send a text, whatever it is, tell your partner three things that you love about them. The advanced version is tell your partner three things you love about them. Tell them three times this week that they made you feel loved. "Here's three things you did this week that made me feel loved. Like, here's three- when you sent me that message and said, that made me feel so soft, that made me feel very loved." Like, whatever it is, I'm sure you could find off the top of your head three things that she did this week that made you feel loved, and it's only Monday.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett43:19

      People at home are in relationships right now. They're hearing you say that-

   6. JSJames Sexton43:23

      Mm-hmm

   7. SBSteven Bartlett43:24

      ... and some of them are still not gonna do it. Why do you think they're not going to do it? Like, what is that mental conversation they're having where they go, "Ah-"

   8. JSJames Sexton43:30

      I, I think we're... I, well, I think we're sc- I think they think it's pointless. I think they, they might be at a point in their relationship where it feels like, "What would be the point? We're so far gone, it wouldn't help." I think s- more than anything, my, my real feeling on this, the secret that I don't think people wanna say out loud, I, I think we're terrified. I think we're terrified, and I think what we're terrified of is not, is not the future of our relationship. I think what we're terrified of is that we, we feel like we're not worthy of love. I think it's most people's fundamental terror. I think most people's fundamental fear is that if you knew me, you wouldn't love me. If you could see me, the real me, like the me that's in here, all the weakness, all the fear, all the horrible, selfish thoughts, all the perversity, all the, all the darkest things that are inside of me and every single one of us, that if you could... if you saw that, you couldn't possibly love me. And the feeling that comes with that, which is, "So you love the character I'm playing, that's not showing you all those things. I'm just, I'm just showing you the best parts of myself. If you saw the real me, you wouldn't really love me." I think our greatest fear is that we're not worthy of love, and I think that there's a part of us that's afraid to, like, poke at, "What do you love about me? What do I love about you? How, how... What am I getting wrong?" Like, again, like, finishing that exercise, w- you know, "Here's some things... Here's three things I love about you. Here's three things you did this week that made me feel loved. Here's three things I could have done better," or, "Tell me three things I could have done better," or tell your partner three things they could have done better. And then if you wanna have a fun one thrown in there, because I think you should have fun stuff, "Here's three things you did this week that made me want to have sex with you."

   9. SBSteven Bartlett45:38

      S- I guess some people would- are listening right now, and they're thinking, "Well, you know, I'm, I'm dating Barry," or they're thinking, "I'm j- dating Joanne, and she is, she is not verbally intimate in this way. She would- if I suggested this to her-

   10. JSJames Sexton45:52

       Write it down. Don't do it... You don't have to do it verbally. I think verbally is too much pressure on people.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett45:56

       But, but even written down, if I told Dave that we're gonna start writing these notes to each other about three things I like, he's gonna cringe and he's-

   12. JSJames Sexton46:01

       Bullshit. Bullshit. H- honestly, really? That's, that's too hard? It's too much of an ask? Like, Dave, I don't care what Dave does for a living. Dave could be a ditch digger for a living who's not articulate in any way. Dave is moving in with you. Dave married you. Dave went out and put his money on the counter and bought a ring. Dave, Dave can't name three things he likes about you? Really, Dave, is that a big ask? Is that hard, Dave? Like, come on. That- I, I absolutely call bullshit on that. Maybe he doesn't want to. Okay, that's a different conversation. Why don't you want to? What, what's uncomfortable about that for you?

   13. SBSteven Bartlett46:36

       It is uncomfortable for some people, isn't it?

   14. JSJames Sexton46:38

       Yeah, it's very uncomfortable for some people.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett46:40

       It's quite interesting that you could be in a loving relationship with someone, but also be, at some deeper level, scared of intimacy. And I'll be honest, because it's just me and you, nobody's listening.

   16. JSJames Sexton46:50

       Sure, of course.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett46:51

       I think at some-

   18. JSJames Sexton46:52

       Attorney-client privilege.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett46:53

       [chuckles] Yeah. I think at some level, I've always been, uh, scared of intimacy makes it sound more conscious than it is.

   20. JSJames Sexton47:00

       Mm.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett47:01

       But at some deeper level, I've always been, I don't know, a bit disconnected intimately when it comes to, like, uh, being able to articulate-

   22. JSJames Sexton47:11

       Mm

   23. SBSteven Bartlett47:11

       ... these things.

   24. JSJames Sexton47:13

       Keep it simple. That, that's why I wanna keep that simple. I didn't say, "What is, what is your love for me rooted in, and what is the nature of our connection, and how does it fit into the broader context? Like, I had a very challenging relationship with my mother growing up, and I feel like you fill some of the wounds that..." Whoa, te- guys, we, we don't need, like, Sigmund Freud doesn't have to show up in the relationship.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett47:34

       Mm.

   26. JSJames Sexton47:35

       What are three... We could do it right now in this relationship. What are three things I like about you? What are three experiences you and I have had with each other that made each other laugh? Like, we have a friendship. Like, what a joy that is, by the way. Like, what a joy it is to sit across from someone and say, "You know what I like about you?" Shit, man, I, I wanna hear that list. Like, that's lovely.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett47:59

       Do you think the whole idea of people being avoidant and sort of anxious, you know, this attachment style-

   28. JSJames Sexton48:05

       Yeah, yeah

   29. SBSteven Bartlett48:05

       ... theory stuff. Do you, is that, does that stuff track to what you've seen?

   30. JSJames Sexton48:08

       It does, but, you know, I, I also think, too, like, I don't understand why we treat our connections to other people [chuckles] differently than things we are... Like, exercise. Exercise, okay? Haven't been to the gym in a while. You go to the gym, you're gonna be sore. You're not gonna be able to lift a lot. You're gonna have to start slow, and for a couple of days, you're gonna be sore. And if you go, "Ooh, I, I... That was- I was very sore after that. I'm not going back to the gym," okay, then you're never gonna get fit, and you're never gonna get past the sore stage. 'Cause if you go, "I'll wait a month, and then I'll go back and do the same thing again," guess what? You're just gonna... You have to move through the uncomfortable part.... to get to the part where it starts to feel really good, and you're not as sore. Yeah, you'll sometimes still be sore. You pushed it a little too hard, maybe worked out with Huberman that week. But you know what? Other weeks, like, you go, "Hey, I don't feel sore. I just feel strong and healthy." So there's gonna be moments where this might feel a little weird. It might feel a little awkward. It might feel a little sore. There might be weeks where that kind of a simple little practice feels a little like, oh, it feels a little uncomfortable, or, yeah, the list of things that you did this week that made me feel loved, I have to reach for it. Okay, great! Isn't that little uncomfortable conversation that might prevent slippage, isn't that little conversation better than the long-term impact of having a distance start growing between the two of you that eventually becomes impossible to navigate because it becomes a chasm between the two of you?
8. 50:05 – 52:01

   How Your Childhood Shapes Your Relationships Today

   1. SBSteven Bartlett50:05

      As a man that talks so much about love, I'm, I'm curious to know what it is that you still struggle with in terms of... You know, 'cause I, I mean, I know from my own-

   2. JSJames Sexton50:12

      Yeah

   3. SBSteven Bartlett50:12

      ... experience that I can know every- I can know so much.

   4. JSJames Sexton50:14

      Yeah.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett50:14

      I sit here with experts all day, every day. It's not like I don't know this stuff.

   6. JSJames Sexton50:18

      Yeah.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett50:18

      But then putting it into practice is a different task.

   8. JSJames Sexton50:21

      Yeah. I mean, it's why you'll never hear me use myself and my relationships as an example because I think you can be, you know, an incredibly skilled person at, at the theory of something, and then in its practical application, you have your own unique challenges. I think that using yourself as the example and your relationships as an example is dangerous because I, I learned it in my own professional life when I, I had a very friendly divorce, and so my experience of divorce is the unique function of the constitution of my ex-wife and of me and of our unique circumstances that brought us where we are. So if I use that as the basis for my analysis of things, I think it's a very shallow sample size. I, I know for me, my greatest challenge in every relationship I've ever had, but even in my, my professional relationships, is acknowledging when I need help. I, I think because I was raised in an environment where a lot of my needs weren't met, my father was a very serious alcoholic, my mother was trying to tend to a very serious alcoholic. When I needed something, even from a very young age, I, I felt a lot of shame because it wasn't met with, "You know, I'm hungry for breakfast," like, "Of course, let me make you some breakfast." It was met with, "What, you can't make your own breakfast? What's wrong with you?" And I- [chuckles] It was this guy. Yeah. Yeah, that was me. That was me, my Bruce Lee poster and my Ch... It was Chuck Norris up there. Um, yeah, this is probably, like, nine,

9. 52:01 – 58:44

   Why So Many Relationships End and How to Prevent It

   1. JSJames Sexton52:01

      nine years old, Okinawan Goju-Ryu Karate. This is my room. Yeah. I was very, um, very lonely. I was really lonely. I was really sad. And, um, I loved martial arts because there was this very clear kind of masculinity on display, like this protective, strong superpower that you could build.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett52:28

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JSJames Sexton52:29

      It wasn't just gifted to you. Like, you didn't win the genetic lottery. Like, you could, through discipline and practice, you could have this superpower that would make you feel safe, and, and that was what I obsessed about having. There's still a lot of that, that person, that young man, still in me that is afraid to ask for help. I wanted to be someone who I could do, do it all for myself, and I, I, I wish I could say, looking back, that it was because that was my natural proclivity as to want to be very self-actualized, but it really was that I was just absolutely sad and terrified that if I asked, I'd be shamed. If I said, like, "Could you be nice to me?" That the answer would be no. So I learned how to do everything. Like, I cook amazingly well. Like, I'm good at a lot of things. I'm good at most things. Almost anything I put my mind to, I'm good at. But it took me a lot of years to figure out that, that although that has served me really well, and it's built my career and the security and safety that came with being so successful and having financial success and, you know, now some level of notoriety, it took me a long time to figure out that that also has been the greatest obstacle in my life. And I- it, it- I'm learning, at the age of fifty-three, that this guy is... like, he's still there and talking to me all the time. And I've learned now, again, through my own therapy, to say to him, like, "Oh, I hear you." Like, "I hear you. I'm glad you're still there." Like, "You don't have to be so scared anymore." I'm not-- I'm grateful to him. I think that's the best thing to aspire to, is to make peace with that. Like, I'm sure in you, there is some little boy, like, hiding in some part of his room, feeling very lost and very lonely, and I don't think there's anything wrong or weak or not masculine or not strong-... about acknowledging that that's still a voice in your head, and acknowledging that that voice in your head, like, it, it brought you where you are, but it also held you back in some ways. And you're never gonna get rid of it, but maybe what you'll do is hear it for what it is, which is is it's a voice that was once there really important to save you, and it did a really good job of that. But, but it's okay. Like, it's okay. You don't have to beat that out of you, but you don't have to listen to it either. You don't have to let it drive the car.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett55:26

      I was thinking as you were speaking about how those of us that-- Do you want me to take this photo back?

   5. JSJames Sexton55:32

      Oh, whichever. It's great. It's fun to see that guy. I- it's funny that you, you pulled that out, I have to tell you. I, I- it's a lovely, it's a lovely thing. I think there's something to learn from those versions of ourself. Like, if you hang out with kids, you, you just see like-

   6. SBSteven Bartlett55:54

      Mm

   7. JSJames Sexton55:54

      ... they don't have all that hate in their heart. They hate naps. It's the end of the list.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett55:59

      [chuckles]

   9. JSJames Sexton56:00

      Like, everything else, like, they just wanna, like, love each other and hug each other and play. And when they, like, think they hurt someone, they stop, and they're very scared 'cause they didn't mean to. And then we turn into these creatures that are just attacking each other all the time, you know? And I think at the end of the day, like, all we want is that... Like, all we want is to just be like that warm, open version of ourselves before the world beat the shit out of us, and maybe that's what love's supposed to be. Like, maybe what love is, is an opportunity for us to, like, reconnect to that part of ourselves that was just so simple. Like, I just want you to love me. I wanna be loved by you. I want you to feel worthy of my love. I wanna feel worthy of yours. Like, why does it have to be so hard? [paper rustling]

   10. SBSteven Bartlett56:49

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10. 58:44 – 1:09:08

    Can Independent People Truly Find Lasting Love?

    1. SBSteven Bartlett58:44

       I was thinking about how, um, there's a lot of people that, at a very early age, had to be very independent for whatever reason. Maybe a parent wasn't around.

    2. JSJames Sexton58:51

       Yeah.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett58:51

       Maybe in your case, you know, I've heard... You know, doing this podcast, you get a bit of pattern recognition, where you, you sometimes-

    4. JSJames Sexton58:58

       Yeah

    5. SBSteven Bartlett58:58

       ... say, "Oh, okay, so if one of the parents was an alcoholic or-"

    6. JSJames Sexton59:01

       Adult children of alcoholics, where, where-

    7. SBSteven Bartlett59:03

       Yeah.

    8. JSJames Sexton59:03

       I remember reading the book, Recovery: Adult Children of Alcoholics. I stumbled on it when I was in college in a bookstore, [lips smack] and I remember reading it and going, "Have they been reading my diary?" Like, what the holy- 'cause there was this profile of, like, o- one of the types, one of the archetypes of adult children of alcoholics, is that you, yeah, control, control, control, control. Like, wanting to control everything because life feels so chaotic when you live with an alcoholic. When the person who is supposed to be your primary caregiver and the primary mechanism for you to feel safe feels unpredictable and chaotic, and that is- it creates in you this constant sense of a heightened, you know, heightened sense of, "I need to hold on as tight as I can."

    9. SBSteven Bartlett59:50

       And also, that drove you to be incredibly independent.

    10. JSJames Sexton59:53

        Yeah.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett59:55

        Independence and connection seem to be on, like, two ends of the spectrum, and I say this in part because I look at-

    12. JSJames Sexton1:00:02

        Yeah

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:03

        ... I look at all my friends that are very, very, very independent-

    14. JSJames Sexton1:00:05

        Yeah

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:05

        ... and I would say that they typically struggle the most to form relationships-

    16. JSJames Sexton1:00:09

        Yeah

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:09

        ... because they've kind of built their own-

    18. JSJames Sexton1:00:11

        Yeah

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:11

        ... castle with a moat.

    20. JSJames Sexton1:00:12

        Yeah. Yeah.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:12

        And, and g- generally, if we zoom out on this point of independence, dependency-

    22. JSJames Sexton1:00:16

        Yeah

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:16

        ... I would say that the narrative in society over the last, I don't know, 10, 20 years or whatever, has been pointed at glorifying independence and not dependency.

    24. JSJames Sexton1:00:26

        Yeah.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:26

        Dependency is, like, not cool.

    26. JSJames Sexton1:00:27

        Yeah.

    27. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:27

        It's like, be your own boss.

    28. JSJames Sexton1:00:28

        Yeah.

    29. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:28

        Start your own business, stand on your own two feet.

    30. JSJames Sexton1:00:30

        Yeah. Yeah. I- so I used to view... [lips smack] I would say the defining characteristics of my 30s and 40s [lips smack] was the belief that there were two versions of Jim Sexton. One was the one that was the most forward-facing at that time, which was lead pipe cruelty and mercenary sensibility. Like, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna do this job. I'm gonna do it really well. I'm gonna get better and better at it. I'm gonna just take my skill set and weaponize it.... and that's who I'm gonna be. And then there was this other part of me that was always there. I kind of stuffed it in the closet for a while, that, like, gets misty-eyed when I talk about love and cries when I think about dogs and, you know, watches Love on the Spectrum and can't make it through an episode without weeping three or four times. Like, this very soft, gentle, loving, compassionate, empathetic, sensitive part of me, and I felt like they were two warring forces. There were two versions of me, and the question was: how can I beat that soft little, you know, wuss [chuckles] out of me and be the final form, which is like the me that's a machine, that can just do it, like, that can just do what needs to be done and do it in a way that nobody else can do? And I'm very blessed that I am, in my line of work, what Yo-Yo Ma is in cello. Like, in a courtroom, I have a God-given talent, and I remember thinking, "Okay, that's the final form of me, is a master in the courtroom, and, and everything else is just: what do I need to do to get there?" I remember my ex-wife saying to me, "You know, you will never love any woman as much as you love the law. Like, every woman who you ever meet for the rest of your life will be playing second fiddle to how much you love being in a courtroom. You're great in a courtroom, and you have no idea what to do in your living room. Like, in your living room, you're just totally paralyzed, whereas in a courtroom, you know every... It has-" Why? It has defined rules. It has a cadence. I know what the goal is. Like, I know exa- It's controlled chaos. I'm great at it. So there was a part of me that went, "Okay, there's this soft, warm, wonderful, lovely, empathetic side of me, and then there's this real successful... And that's the one that got me everywhere. That's the one that got me everything I have, so I have to figure out how to get rid of this one and keep this one." Like... And for th- my entire thirties and most of my forties, that was my primary thing, was trying to figure out how to get rid of that part of me. And no matter how loudly I blared Nine Inch Nails on, on, on, on my headphones and tried to become a machine, I couldn't get rid of that part of me. And then I came to realize, I think in part because of this work, I think because of, like, somehow I stumbled into being in a position where I end up talking about feelings a whole lot, and it's... Somehow I, I, I got brought in to have, "Oh, here's this interesting divorce lawyer who's gonna talk about divorce stuff," and somehow I ended up talking a lot about love and softness and warmth and compassion.
11. 1:09:08 – 1:14:08

    Are You Prioritizing the Wrong Things in Your Relationship?

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:08

       Yeah, I, I, I, wonder why that- I wonder why it is that we, um... there's so little space for us to work on our connection challenges these days.

    2. JSJames Sexton1:09:18

       It hasn't been prioritized. We become what we behold. We prioritize what we've been told to prioritize. We've been told to prioritize conspicuous consumption.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:27

       I just-

    4. JSJames Sexton1:09:28

       We've been taught that the measure of a person is, is how much financial success they have. That's why I genuinely believe that if we continue to barrel along using this, the metric of success being financial above all else, really, consumption, what we own, what we wear, what we have, or how we look, right, as the priority, we're barreling towards nothing. Whereas if we were to change that and say: Hey, like, joy, peace, finding some peace within ourselves, finding some balance that feels right to us individually.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:07

       I think that's a really good, simple word which people don't think about enough when they're thinking about the KPIs of success in their life, which is: how do I feel? And I think we've all grown up in different contexts, learning to tune out of how I feel, and in its place, put, how does the world feel about me, as, like, the primary metric. And it's like I, I was thinking the other day that actually, you know, we can go do all these podcasts and books and whatever else, but we were all born with this sort of internal compass that tells you every day how you feel, but, like, none of us tune into it.

    6. JSJames Sexton1:10:39

       Yeah. Yeah.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:40

       And actually, the metric becomes like, how many followers do you have? How rich are you? How-

    8. JSJames Sexton1:10:43

       It's beaten out of us by the world. Like, I, I, I will tell you... You always get the most emotional stuff out of me, Steven. I will tell you my most shameful moment as a parent. So I have two sons. They're twenty-six and twenty-eight. Twenty-eight-year-old just got married in September. He's a lawyer. He's awesome. He must have been five or six, [lip smack] and something happened, like, and he was- he started crying. Like, someone hurt his feelings or something happened, but it wasn't... I don't know, it wasn't that big of a deal, like it, it, to me at the moment. I mean, I was in my twenties. He was twenty-four when I- I was twenty-four when he was born. So yeah, I was in my twenties, and he was crying, and he was crying, and I, like, I wanted him to stop crying 'cause it made me sad to see him cry. Like, I love him so much, like, that I was like, it made me so uncomfortable to see him crying. And I remember I like, I like, grabbed him, not roughly. I grabbed him, and I just looked at him, and I was like: "Control yourself!" I'm like, "Control yourself." I'm like, "Calm down and control yourself." And I remember, like, he, he managed to do it. It's twenty-something years later, like, and I, I'm ashamed of that moment. Because I understand what I was trying to say to him. Like, I was trying to say to him, "I, I don't want you to be in pain." Like, "I'm uncomfortable with your pain." I also wanted- I wanted to say something to this guy, probably, which is like: "Dude, like, you- the world's not gonna be nice to you if it knows that you have all these feelings. Like, you gotta find a way to hide it." There's so much going on in that moment, but, like, I look back on that moment, and I just think like, "No, like, that was the wrong thing to do." Like, it was the wrong thing to do. Like, I don't think we should be telling people, not just boys, like boys particularly, [chuckles] maybe, but I don't think we should be telling people, like, "Control yourself," like, "Stop feeling so much." Like, I think, I think, I think there's a difference between trying to, like, get people to control their feelings and not letting, like, everything be governed by the transient feelings that you have from moment to moment, and I, I think it's a harder, more subtle message. But, like, I think-... if we lead with the feelings, if we lean into the feelings first, we identify the feelings first. If we figure out what it is we wanna feel, we want the other person to feel, to bring it back to marriage, to bring it back to connection, that-- what were the questions I was asking earlier, that, that exercise? When did I make you feel loved this week? Here's some things you did that made me feel loved this week. Here's some things that made me feel desire towards you this week. Here's some things you did this week that made me feel less than loved by you, or that made me feel less connected to you. Like, what- maybe we just need to help each other learn how to identify our feelings and feel our feelings. Like, maybe we need more Mr. Rogers and less, you know, intense self-help. Like, maybe we just need more help not trying to control our feelings, but just figure out what they are and feel them.

12. 1:14:08 – 1:15:14

    How Addiction Numbs Us from Real Connection

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:08

       I think, you know, a lot of us are distracting ourselves as a way to avoid feeling anything, 'cause even-- I, I was thinking about, like, a practical way for you to get back in touch with actually how you're feeling.

    2. JSJames Sexton1:14:16

       Yeah.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:17

       And every solution I came up with was, like, interrupted by dooms-

    4. JSJames Sexton1:14:20

       Well, the best definition of addiction I've ever heard was from a therapist, Dave Klugman, who said to me, um, "Addiction is anything you do to get away from feeling what you w- would have felt if you'd done nothing at all." And I've always said to people, work is my favorite narcotic. Like, if you look at the most productive times in my life, they were almost always when something awful was happening in my personal life. Either I was getting divorced, my mother was dying, some, some painful thing was happening, so I took tremendous comfort in feeling in control and competent, which is how I feel at work. So the, the more I'm working is usually a gauge of, of where there are aspects of my life that I don't wanna feel certain things. And again, that's why I think that the, the best question to ask at the start of therapy, the only question, really, is: What is it I'm afraid to feel?

13. 1:15:14 – 1:20:50

    Why You Shouldn’t Give Up on Love Even Now

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:14

       I think because we're closing off on this section where we were talking about people who have struggled in love, it is probably worth just closing this section by giving them a why as to... like, the, the reason why they should take love seriously and stop distracting themselves, and stop avoiding it, and stop avoiding going to therapy-

    2. JSJames Sexton1:15:38

       Yeah

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:39

       ... brushing it under the carpet. Like, what, what is, what is the why there? Why should they take love seriously? 'Cause they could continue to, you know, bomb on for the next ten, twenty years and become-

    4. JSJames Sexton1:15:49

       Mm-hmm

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:50

       ... really professionally accomplished.

    6. JSJames Sexton1:15:52

       Mm-hmm.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:53

       And, you know, get rich, nice house, nice holidays.

    8. JSJames Sexton1:15:56

       Mm-hmm. Yeah, those are all great things. Those are all worthy pursuits. I think when you look back on your life, whatever stage of your life you're in, most people will recall a moment where they felt loved or where they felt tremendous love as the highest points of their life. I, I think even celebrity, and I represent a lot of celebrities, and now, like you, I've had a little taste of it, i- that's really just the praise of strangers. It's like the love of strangers, which is lovely. It's lovely. It's like NutraSweet: It's sweet. It's not sugar, but it's sweet. Like, feels good to have strangers adore you. It's lovely, you know? But is it the same as having someone who genuinely knows you and has a history of with you and really loves you? Like, I think all of us know, if we're honest, that when we look back on our life at the moments where we felt the most glad that we're here, it was usually something that we felt that made us feel loved or that we got to feel love towards someone else, or, or ideally, a combination of the two. So I think romantic love is a great opportunity, and you don't have to be someone who's religious and therefore believes that marriage is a sacrament that you're called to for the purpose of creating children. You don't have to be someone who believes that, you know, marriage is good for society, and therefore, that's why we have to do it, as if you love America or you love the UK, you have to do this for the country. It really can just be to look inside your own experience as a human being and look inside your own feelings and say, "Okay, when have I felt truly loved? When have I felt love, and were those the highest moments in my life? Were those the best moments in my life?" A lot of those other things that you just described, like holiday, it's usually not by yourself. It's usually with other people. It's usually with someone. Even if it's transient love, it's some kind of connection to another person. So the, the bigger question is, is, is the unique form of love that, that comes with a pair bond, right? I- you find one person, and you make that person your person. Like, is that the permutation that works for you? And I think there are a lot of people who try at that and fail. The majority of people try at that and fail. Is the solution to that to give up on it? I don't think so. I think the solution to it is to figure out when it works, 'cause when it works, it, it's so good, right? Uh, talk to anybody who's really had a great, successful long-term relationship. Again, even if it eventually ends, even if, you know, happily ever after means happily ever after separately, if you had ten, twenty years of your life where you felt deep, wonderful, intimate connection with another person and great sexual satisfaction, all kinds of other things... Like, you know, at best, right, like, you're, you're getting married, okay? And if you have a monogamous marriage, I would like to think that-... you will sleep with as many women as you want to, which will be one, and she will sleep with as many men as she wants to, which will be one. 'Cause when I'm full, I, I'm not hungry. I don't need more to eat. Like, when I'm satisfied, I don't need more. Like, if, if the goal of a monogamous marriage, if the goal of a traditional marriage, is that we're going to say to each other, "Hey, you and I, we're going to share space, we're gonna share a journey together, we're gonna play a very important role in each other's lives," we're going to add to that there's this romantic and sexual component, which makes it something other than a friendship. And most marriages, you're saying, "We're gonna only share that aspect of self with each other." Okay, so if that's what you want, and what comes from that is, you know, something you wanna feel, and that is, "I wanna feel deeply connected, I wanna feel the connection gets deeper and deeper. I wanna feel safe in this relationship emotionally, physically. I wanna feel safe in it." Like, I just think that there's tremendous value in saying that out loud to each other from the beginning and saying to each other, "What can we do to, to... If we both have decided this is something we're going to do, we don't have to do it, but we're going to do it, how can we s- keep this thing lovely and connected?" And I, I think the answer really is not that complicated.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:49

       Do

14. 1:20:50 – 1:22:00

    Can Prenups Actually Make Marriages Last?

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:50

       you think prenups help marriages last?

    2. JSJames Sexton1:20:53

       Yes.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:54

       You're saying that as a divorce lawyer who gets paid to write them?

    4. JSJames Sexton1:20:56

       No, 'cause it's the least profitable thing we do.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:58

       Oh, okay.

    6. JSJames Sexton1:20:59

       Yeah. Prenups are so easy. Like, they're, you know, they're really, like, to the point now where they're essentially automated. Like, I see a future where AI is just gonna do them. Like, it's really not that tricky.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:21:08

       Do you think I should get a prenup?

    8. JSJames Sexton1:21:10

       Yes, of course.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:21:11

       Why do you think I should get a prenup?

    10. JSJames Sexton1:21:12

        You have a prenup. It'll either be written by the state legislature or it'll be written by you and she. Who do you trust more? You've been to the DMV? Have you walked into the DMV and went, "Oh, these people are great. They should be in charge of everything. I mean, you know what? They should make the rules for our marriage." And by the way, even though this legislature changes constantly, like, whoever you are, whatever your political views are, in the last 20 years, at some point, you've gone, "I cannot believe who's in charge here. I cannot believe who's in charge of the government," whatever side of the aisle you're on. So what you're saying, 'cause your marriage has a prenup... You get married, you've got a prenup. You're saying, "I trust the legislature of the state in which we will be residing in the future, in the event we break up, more than I trust my partner, who I've chosen out of eight billion options."

15. 1:22:00 – 1:24:12

    I'm Scared to Ask for a Prenup, Here’s What to Do

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:22:00

       I imagine a lot of people listening would [grunts] be scared to mention a prenup to their partner.

    2. JSJames Sexton1:22:06

       And those people in particular, by the way, it's just like I said about, you know, I don't have 15 minutes a day to meditate. Great, then you need an hour. If you'd be scared to mention a prenup to your partner, then, then you should definitely mention a prenup to your partner, 'cause what that means is I'm afraid to have a hard conversation with my partner. And if you're gonna get married, you should get accustomed to having hard conversations. Life is gonna come at you very fast, and there's gonna be lots of things that happen that require hard conversations.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:22:36

       What if my partner says no?

    4. JSJames Sexton1:22:38

       Says no to the prenup?

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:22:39

       Yeah.

    6. JSJames Sexton1:22:40

       Have a conversation about why.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:22:42

       And they say, "Well, you don't trust me? Like, you think I'm gonna take your stuff?" This is not very sexy. This is-

    8. JSJames Sexton1:22:47

       Well, arguably, you don't trust me equally, right? Because that trust works both ways. So what, what, what you're saying when you say, "I... You don't trust me," is you're saying that you don't trust that this marriage is going to last, or you don't trust- you're saying you don't trust that in the event this marriage ends, we won't be fair to each other, right? So why would you marry someone who you don't believe that they're going to be fair to you? What you're- you're not protecting yourselves against each other, you're protecting yourselves against the government making the rule set in the event that, that your marriage ends in something other than death.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:23:27

       You know, I've got a friend, um, there's two people that convinced me that I should get a prenup.

    10. JSJames Sexton1:23:31

        Mm-hmm.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:23:32

        One of them was you.

    12. JSJames Sexton1:23:33

        Thanks.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:23:34

        Um, and then the other was at watching a friend go through divorce. And he said to me, actually, when we, we went for dinner one time, that... It was true, it was. It was looking at his face and seeing the, like, depression in his face from the process.

    14. JSJames Sexton1:23:49

        Mm.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:23:49

        Because not only had it ruined his relationship with his ex-wife-

    16. JSJames Sexton1:23:53

        Mm

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:23:53

        ... because they've gone through this onslaught for seven years, where two-

    18. JSJames Sexton1:23:56

        Mm

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:23:56

        ... sets of lawyers were fighting either side.

    20. JSJames Sexton1:23:57

        Yeah.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:23:57

        He said that he'd paid for the lawyer- her lawyers-

    22. JSJames Sexton1:24:00

        Yeah

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:00

        ... which he has to do, which I wasn't-

    24. JSJames Sexton1:24:02

        Yeah, there's a presumption that the higher-earning individual should be responsible for the legal- reasonable legal fees of the, the less, uh, earning

16. 1:24:12 – 1:29:51

    Wild Divorce Stories You Have to Hear to Believe

    1. JSJames Sexton1:24:12

       spouse.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:12

       He said her lawyer has now got, like, a skyscraper, whereas when this divorce started, he was in a small little office. Now he's got, like, some-

    3. JSJames Sexton1:24:19

       Yeah

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:19

       ... massive building, because he's had to-

    5. JSJames Sexton1:24:21

       Yeah

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:21

       ... spend tens of millions on her lawyers. [chuckles]

    7. JSJames Sexton1:24:23

       Yeah.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:23

       And, um-

    9. JSJames Sexton1:24:24

       Yeah, I've had clients who've paid millions.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:26

        The other thing he said was that he has... Her lawyer is trying to inflate his assets-

    11. JSJames Sexton1:24:34

        Mm-hmm

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:35

        ... to tell the judge-

    13. JSJames Sexton1:24:37

        Mm-hmm

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:37

        ... that his business is worth-

    15. JSJames Sexton1:24:39

        Mm-hmm

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:39

        ... billions of dollars, when actually-

    17. JSJames Sexton1:24:41

        Now I know why this divorce is taking so long. They have dueling experts. So instead of, of the two lawyers hiring neutral- a neutral expert to value his business interests, what they've elected to do instead is to hire individual partisan experts, and that happens sometimes. And when you hire an individual partisan expert, of course, you're going to... You know, if you represent the party who wants half of this thing, you're gonna in- find someone... You can- the cigarette companies had doctors who were willing to testify that cigarettes are good for you. Like, you can find an expert to say almost anything if you pay them enough. So you find credible experts that will overly value the business, and then... Because value is speculative. And then the other side has an incentive to hire experts who will deliberately diminish the value of the business. And then you have two opportunities. One is you can play with the data set-... and you can impeach the dataset, and then the other is you can impeach the conclusion that came from the dataset. So you can say, "You used the wrong data, and that's how you got to the wrong conclusion," or you can say, "You used the right data, but you came to the wrong conclusion," or some combination of both. Like, this is the shit I get to do all day in a courtroom, is to, like, try to engineer those optics or prevent those optics from being engineered in that direction.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:25:53

        And say that I was going through a divorce now with my partner-

    19. JSJames Sexton1:25:57

        Mm-hmm.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett1:25:57

        My wife would... Well, her lawyer would theoretically be trying to say that this podcast is worth a billion dollars-

    21. JSJames Sexton1:26:04

        Yeah

    22. SBSteven Bartlett1:26:04

        ... because then, theoretically-

    23. JSJames Sexton1:26:07

        She's entitled to a larger percentage, yeah.

    24. SBSteven Bartlett1:26:09

        She might be entitled to five hundred million.

    25. JSJames Sexton1:26:10

        Yeah.

    26. SBSteven Bartlett1:26:11

        And if the judge believes that this podcast is worth a billion, I need to find a way to pay her five hundred million?

    27. JSJames Sexton1:26:15

        Yeah. Yeah.

    28. SBSteven Bartlett1:26:16

        Even if I don't have it?

    29. JSJames Sexton1:26:17

        It can be paid over time. It's what's called a distributive award. It can be paid over an extended period of time. That's-

    30. SBSteven Bartlett1:26:22

        And, and my lawyer's gonna be trying to argue that this is worth nothing.
17. 1:29:51 – 1:44:14

    Why a Prenup Might Be the Best Thing for Your Marriage

    1. JSJames Sexton1:29:51

       So this is actually a great illustration of what a prenup should be, okay? All a prenup is, a prenup is not a referendum on the likelihood of us breaking up. A prenup is not a commentary on how much we trust each other. A prenup is not, um, you know, an opportunity to screw the person you're about to join lives with, okay? A prenup is a rule set. It's creating tranches, okay? So you have some things. She has some things. Right now, you don't owe her anything. She doesn't owe you anything. Yours is yours, hers is hers. You're in the title system.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:30:30

       Can we talk about if we're just dating?

    3. JSJames Sexton1:30:34

       Sure.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:30:34

       So if we're dating, I heard that there's some laws where if you date someone long enough, eventually, they can basically argue that they own your stuff.

    5. JSJames Sexton1:30:41

       Yeah, yeah. So that's called what used to be called common law marriage, or it makes you responsible for what we used to call palimony, which is like alimony for a friend. Palimony, okay? Um, most jurisdictions no longer honor that. It doesn't exist. It was largely a function of the absence of marriage equality. So once marriage equality occurred, once gay and lesbian individuals could marry, the court system essentially started saying, "There's no such thing as a quasi-marital relationship anymore." If you are married, you're married. If you're not, you're not. So if you decide to live together and you don't have a marriage, then you can't have a quasi-marital relationship anymore. Now that marriage equality is the law of the land, and everyone who wants to get married is allowed to get married, you can't say, "Well, we were kinda like married, but we weren't married." Like, you're either married or you're not married. Those are the two tranches. So that situation, you're in the title system. Yours is yours. Hers is hers. There is no we, except for the voluntary we.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:31:41

       ... Okay, so now using, coming back to this example of these M&M's and prenups.

    7. JSJames Sexton1:31:45

       So here's what marriage is, simply put: there's you, there's me, and this is we. This is the bucket of we, okay? When we get married, we're gonna take you. [m&m's rattling] I didn't put it all. See, I didn't put it all? Okay. I'm keeping this separate. That's called separate property, okay? In California, this is called community property. This is anything I acquire during the marriage, okay? This is separate property. If I keep it separate, it stays separate, okay? It stays separate. Keep that thought. This is her, okay? [m&m's rattling] She's, she's put some of hers in there, too. It may not be exactly the same, but it's pretty close to it. And by the way, we just got married. It's pretty obvious to see which one's which, right? Okay, so, so this is any marriage really, with or without a prenup, okay? This is what marriage looks like. There's you, and there's me, and there's we. We're combining. And by the way, this isn't just for assets and liabilities. This is like the nature of our stuff, our furniture, the things we bring to the relationship. You could even argue it's like what we watch on TV, right? It's you, me, we, and we combine the two, okay? Now, you and I both know [m&m's rattling] this is actually what this starts to look like. It never stays this neat, does it? It always starts to get kind of mixed up together. In the law, we call that commingling, okay? Now, here's what's interesting. With a prenup, this stays this simple, because anything you put in this bucket is marital.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:33:27

       And that could be stuff I bought for the house, it could be a joint bank account.

    9. JSJames Sexton1:33:31

       It could be anything, okay?

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:33:32

        Yeah.

    11. JSJames Sexton1:33:32

        All we're doing when we have a prenup is yours, mine, ours, and we're defining that. So maybe I want you to feel I'm very invested in this relationship, so I throw some more in. [m&m's rattling] "Hey, babe, I just got a bonus at work. I'm throwing it into the we." I'm keeping a little over here. I'm keeping a little over here. [m&m's rattling]

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:33:53

        Wait, can you do that after the marriage?

    13. JSJames Sexton1:33:56

        With a prenup?

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:33:56

        Yeah.

    15. JSJames Sexton1:33:57

        Yeah.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:33:57

        So you can add to a prenup?

    17. JSJames Sexton1:33:58

        With a prenup, what you're saying is: "If it's in my name, it's mine, asset or liability. If it's in your name, it's yours, asset or liability. If it's in our joint names, we divide it fifty-fifty, or how we agree in writing."

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:34:09

        Yes.

    19. JSJames Sexton1:34:09

        But we create three separate buckets: yours, mine, and ours, okay? Do you know what happens in the state of California after seven years, or in the state of New York, if you commingle assets in any way? This is solely things in your name. This is solely things in her name, things you owned before marriage. This is the you and the me before you got married. [m&m's rattling] It's community property now, all of it.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett1:34:40

        Everything?

    21. JSJames Sexton1:34:41

        All of it. Every bit of it. You didn't have a prenup, everything that's in it. Everything in here is, is subject to division. Everything that's in here is subject to identification, valuation, and division. And think about, think about sorting that out.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett1:35:02

        And also going back to my friend, some of the value of these assets [m&m's rattling] is up for debate.

    23. JSJames Sexton1:35:08

        Sure. Sure. Not only is the value... Because look, some of these are cracked, and some of them aren't. And did they crack in this process, or were they cracked before? Did she crack them, or did you crack them? And which ones are worth more than the others? And were these the same at the be- it doesn't matter. It's all in. And by the way, take, take out the marital pr- take out your property now. How long is that gonna take you? It's impossible to do. The... Once you're in the community property system, once you've put something into the we category, if you get married without a prenup, you can unintentionally buy into this, into this system. Which, by the way, I make a very comfortable living helping people sort this out. Whereas, whereas a- all you had to do was agree on the rule set of yours, mine, ours, and then this is intentional. Now, I understand why that's scary for some people, 'cause you have to have a conversation about, well, are we putting that in joint names? Or, well, you got that bonus, are you putting it in my account or your account, or some in your account and some in my account, or some in this? But isn't it better to keep some level of control over this?

    24. SBSteven Bartlett1:36:19

        If I was a financially motivated individual, and I was marrying, say, you, and you were a billionaire-

    25. JSJames Sexton1:36:27

        Mm-hmm.

    26. SBSteven Bartlett1:36:27

        -I mean, it's very much in my interest to avoid this prenup.

    27. JSJames Sexton1:36:31

        Maybe, yeah.

    28. SBSteven Bartlett1:36:32

        Because then I'm, you know-

    29. JSJames Sexton1:36:33

        Yeah

    30. SBSteven Bartlett1:36:33

        ... it's all gonna become we in seven years' time.
18. 1:44:14 – 1:53:11

    Should You Get a Prenup for Your Pets?

    1. JSJames Sexton1:44:14

       you.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:44:14

       What about pets? I've heard about this petnup.

    3. JSJames Sexton1:44:17

       Petnup, yeah.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:44:18

       What's a petnup? And do people actually-

    5. JSJames Sexton1:44:20

       Yeah, yeah, a pet- a petnup is... I actually created the site, trustedpetnup.com, and, uh, it's free. It's a hundred percent free. It's, uh, i- if you- it's a pay as you wish, so if you want to, to pay anything towards it, a hundred percent of it goes to animal shelters, basically to, to 501 [c] [3] animal shelters. But essentially, what we have found is happening more in the legal system right now is the equivalent of custody cases but for companion animals. So people have a dog, people have a cat, people have a bird, people have any combination of animals. We feel deeply emotionally invested in our pets. Um, the law for many years looked at pets as what was called chattel. Chattel is property, and property is essentially like, if you killed someone's dog, you owed them the replacement value of the dog.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:45:08

       What do you tend to see from a legal perspective here? Is it that at one point, they bought a pet together, they never really clarified who owns the pet?

    7. JSJames Sexton1:45:17

       Yeah.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:45:17

       They go through a divorce-

    9. JSJames Sexton1:45:18

       Yeah

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:45:18

        ... they're both arguing over the pet.

    11. JSJames Sexton1:45:19

        That happened a lot. Yeah, that was the most common permutation. Sometimes it was they got a pet together while they were dating-

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:45:25

        Mm-hmm

    13. JSJames Sexton1:45:25

        ... and one of them was living, you know, in their own apartment or whatever, and the dog or cat was living with them, and then they merged their homes, and now they both grow deeply attached to this animal. And, you know, they've spent five years or ten years together with this animal, and now they both... Like a child, they both have this- like a stepchild is very similar. [chuckles] Like, it's not my blood child, but it's, you know, someone who I've spent a long time with and been part of their care, and I mean something to them.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:45:51

        And what's the legal... What's, what is the law for that?

    15. JSJames Sexton1:45:53

        Well, for many, many years, pets were considered chattel. They were considered property. So, you know, I, I remember a case in New York County where the parties could not agree on what to do with the dog, like who would keep the dog, and the judge said, "Okay, I'm ordering the dog to be sold and the proceeds divided." And of course, the people then went outside and figured... It was very Solomon-like. The people went outside and figured out a visitation schedule for the dog. But what we're just saying is, just like anything in a prenup, do this in advance. Just do this in advance. You have a pet? Have a petnup. Even if you're not getting married, if you're cohabitating or you're dating someone, have a contract that says, "We both care about this animal. We've adopted this animal, or we've purchased this animal, or we've brought this animal into our lives. And now, in the event that the- our relationship ends, here's what the rules will be. We will jointly make important medical decisions and be guided by the veterinarian's, you know, perspective. Um, if, if either of us ever is going to give up the animal for adoption, the other person will have the automatic right to adopt the animal. If the time eventually comes where there has been a recommendation of euthanasia by- we will both be entitled to be there when we say goodbye to that dog, or we'll both be entitled to jointly agree on where that animal's ashes will be or where they'll be buried, or we'll each be entitled to one half of the ashes, or we'll have a visitation schedule for the dog in the event that we separate." That's what a petnup is. A petnup is a contract between two people... Look, just like kids, pets didn't ask for this. Pets didn't ask for you guys to break up. It's not their fault. Like, I don't know anybody that ever broke up 'cause of the dog or the cat. I'm sure there's somebody out there, but that's not what it's about. So it is very, very useful to have in advance a rule set. I like rules in advance. I like to know the rules of the game that we're playing because we can adjust our behavior accordingly.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:47:44

        Is, um, divorce increasing statistically?

    17. JSJames Sexton1:47:48

        So it's- the most recent statistic is the divorce rate is slowly going up. It was low. It had, it had gone down. It went down during the pandemic. Part of that was a function of access to the court system. When, again, when you're looking at the divorce rate, the divorce rate is calculated based on the filing of what's called Certificate of Dissolution of Marriage, which is the final document that's filed with the state by the court system when a divorce has been finalized. So all you're really seeing there is what marriage has catastrophically failed, and, and there was a judgment of divorce entered. There are many people that just go out for milk and never come back, or they physically separate, and then they never finalize the divorce. They're not factored into that statistic.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:48:28

        Mm-hmm.

    19. JSJames Sexton1:48:29

        So, and the people who quietly stay together miserable or live in different places and just move out and never finalize their divorce, that, that, that statistic doesn't include any of those people. These are just the people that it actually ended in divorce, and that divorce was registered with the state. But the divorce rate went down, and then it- the divorce filing rate spiked when the court systems opened back up post-pandemic, and now it's steadily going back up again. Now, what's interesting is the marriage rate is going down, and the average age at which people marry is going up.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett1:49:02

        I was looking at the generational divide here, and it says, "Younger couples, so Millennials and Gen Z, divorce rates have plummeted. They are marrying later, cohabiting first, and statistically more selective, leading to more stable marriages. However, there is something called the gray divorce. Divorce rates for people over fifty," um, they refer to as gray divorce, "has doubled since 1990 and tripled for those over sixty-five."

    21. JSJames Sexton1:49:26

        Yeah. Gray divorce is a, a something that a lot of divorce lawyers are thinking and talking a lot about right now, which is that, first of all, people are living much longer. People are living in a different way, much longer, thanks to things like erectile dysfunction medication. Like, you know, an eighty-year-old having, you know, a active sex life is not something that really existed so often prior to the pharmaceutical advent of erectile dysfunction drugs, which really only occurred in the last twenty years. So there's a big change in, in what a seventy-year-old or eighty-year-old's quality of life is and what they look like and what their health is like. So, you know, with, with, uh, hormone replacement therapy, with, you know, all the different medications that are out there, people are living more-... uh, sexually, uh, you know, and romantically charged lives in their elder years than they used to, which often leads people to say: "You know what? I've got ten more years. I'm not gonna stay in this unhappy relationship, and I'm gonna split up." I actually don't think, by the way, that those two statistics that you just talked about are unrelated. I think millennials, they, they haven't been married for that long yet. Like, the question of catastrophic failure of a marriage, like I- I've said it before, that people get divorced the same way they go bankrupt, very slowly and then all at once.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett1:50:44

        Well, two of the reasons given in the research I did as well were quite s- quite unobvious on the surface. One of them is that women in this generation, Boomers and Gen Z, are more likely to have their own careers and retirement savings-

    23. JSJames Sexton1:50:55

        Mm-hmm

    24. SBSteven Bartlett1:50:55

        ... than previous generations, meaning they can afford to leave unhappy marriages.

    25. JSJames Sexton1:50:58

        That's piece.

    26. SBSteven Bartlett1:50:59

        And when I've spoken with menopause experts and so on, they've, they've told me they see this often, that in this season of life, women will, you know, make a decision to, to leave. And the other one is the reduced stigma about divorce.

    27. JSJames Sexton1:51:11

        Yeah.

    28. SBSteven Bartlett1:51:11

        So divorce is no longer seen as a moral failure, making it socially easier to split later in life.

    29. JSJames Sexton1:51:16

        I believe that that's true. I think that we've definitely changed the manner in which we relate to divorce. We no longer consider it a catastrophic failure socially. I think that we often see it as the ending of a chapter and the beginning of a new one. I don't think that that's bad. I think destigmatizing divorce and seeing that, okay, sometimes it is better for people when the relationship is no longer working for both of them, and they've done the things they've tried to do to make it work, and they've decided that happily ever after means happily ever after separately-

    30. SBSteven Bartlett1:51:45

        Mm-hmm
19. 1:53:11 – 1:56:57

    The Most Common Mistake People Make After Saying "I Do"

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:53:11

       What's the most important thing we didn't talk about that we should have talked about as it pertains to the subject of holding onto this very precious thing and very elusive thing for many, called love?

    2. JSJames Sexton1:53:22

       You know, something I've been thinking a lot about lately is to... And I say this to you as an engaged man and as a friend. I think there's two seemingly contradictory assumptions people make when they get married that I hope you're not making, okay? I hope this couple, neither person in this couple is making. One is thinking that marriage will change the other person. So, you know, "Steven works so much, and he's so hard-charging, but once we get married, he'll come home more, and he'll be home more, and he'll calm down more." "You know, she's, uh, uh, you know, very worried about me when I'm..." I'm making something up. "But she's worried about me when I'm out and on the road, and she's worried about temptation bothering me, but once we're married, she'll know we have a really solid commitment. She won't have that worry anymore," okay? Thinking that marriage is going to change someone is a very dangerous assumption, and a lot of the people that come into my office, they entered marriage thinking, "This is going to change things that I want to see changed." The contradictory second thing is thinking, "Once we get married, nothing will change." Thinking, "This is so lovely. She's so wonderful. I love the version of me she brings out, so I'm so wonderful when I'm with her," and her thinking, "He's so wonderful, and I love who he- how he makes me..." Because, you know, we don't just love the person. We love the person we are when we're with that person. We love how that person makes us feel about ourselves. That's a lovely thing. It's one of the best things about love, right? So making the assumption that that will never change, that nothing about this relate- that marrying will somehow build a wall around this beautiful, wonderful, warm thing that we found together, and it'll protect it from all the other things in the world, and nothing will change, and it'll just stay wonderful, is another very dangerous assumption. So even though it seems like a contradiction, I hope that things change, and I hope some things don't change. And the only way that I can think of to let those two contradictory elements peacefully coexist in a manner that doesn't lead directly to the desk in front of me is to just keep talking about it. And when things change, just talk about it. Just point it out, not with judgment, not with anger, not with the belief that because something changed, it's bad, and not with the change, that change is automatically good. Just saying, "Hey, remember these two people? That guy's a little different now. Is that okay? Why did that happen? Is it a good thing? Is it a bad thing? Do you miss him? Is there something that we could do that's different or better?" Like, these two people found value in each other.... they, they love the other person, and they love who they are when they're with the person. And again, I'll, I'll say it again: your marriage will end, I promise. I hope it ends in death, and I hope when it ends, that you will look at her, and you will say, "She helped me become the most authentic version of myself, and she's still my favorite person." That's the greatest gift that you could give to her and that you can give to each other, and that I think the two of you together could give to the world. And that's worth all the M&M's.

20. 1:56:57 – 2:06:05

    Why Being Authentic Is the Key to a Lasting Relationship

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:56:58

       Why do you point to authenticity as being so important in this context? 'Cause you, you used that word, "She helped me become the most authentic version of myself." Why does that matter?

    2. JSJames Sexton1:57:07

       Because it's not about becoming the version of you that she envisions for you or her becoming who you want her to become. I think that sometimes love, the person doesn't become what we wanted them to be, and I think sometimes what we wanted them to be might not be the most authentic version of who they are. You know, Kahlil Gibran in The Prophet, when he's talking about children, he says that, "Children are living arrows," and, and, and that you, you fire the arrow, and yes, your aim has something to do with it, but the wind has something to do with it, and so many other things have something to do with it. And so, you know, God loves the archer with the steady hand and the arrow that's straight, and I feel like if you were to say, "This person became who I wanted them to become..." Like, 'cause again, I think our duty, in, in the best symbiosis, you care a lot about her, even more so than you do about yourself, and she cares about you, even more so than she does about herself. But not to have you become the man she wants you to be and not for her to become the woman you want her to be. You want to be of service to her, and she wants to be of service to you. I want to help you become the most authentic version of you. I can see your blind spots. You can't. That's why they're blind spots. So I'm gonna help you become the most authentic version of yourself. That's the promise. That should be the promise in marriage, is, "I want to help you become... I'm gonna do what I can to be of service to helping you become the most authentic version of yourself. And when you become it, you'll still be my favorite person, because at the core of you is this thing that I love."

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:59:09

       I hope I do a good job.

    4. JSJames Sexton1:59:11

       I hope you do, too.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:59:13

       It's scary, isn't it? 'Cause you think of all the ways you can fuck it up. [chuckles] It's like... Do you know what I mean?

    6. JSJames Sexton1:59:17

       But you know what?

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:59:17

       There's so many ways you can fuck it up.

    8. JSJames Sexton1:59:18

       That's why it's brave. Like, if you're not scared, it's not brave. It's brave 'cause you're scared, and you do it anyway.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:59:25

       Mm.

    10. JSJames Sexton1:59:25

        And it's worth doing it, because if the prize at the end of it is figuring out who you are and helping someone figure out who they are and having a partner in all of this, like, what's better than that, man? What, what riches could you hold that are greater than that? Like, that's the greatest gift you could seek in life. And, and by the way, it also has the power, if it's done right, to transform the world, because it really is family, community, culture, world, you know? And so, yeah, it's, it's... The fact that you say it's scary is great because it means you realize this is a serious thing, and if something that you realize is serious, you're gonna make a concerted effort to be good at.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett2:00:14

        Amen. We have a closing tradition, as you know. The question left for you is: What is the most significant dream you have had in the past year, and how did it change your behavior? [sighs] Go on.

    12. JSJames Sexton2:00:31

        Oof. I know. I want to get through this without crying. I had a, uh... I dreamed about my mom.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett2:00:37

        [exhales] It's okay.

    14. JSJames Sexton2:00:49

        [lips smack] My mom died 10 years ago after a long battle with cancer. There was a lot between us that needed to be said and wasn't said. We had some peace and some closure, but there's a lot I didn't- hadn't figured out about myself by the time she passed, and there's a part of me that wishes she was here so that I could have apologized for some things that I got wrong, and I could have understood her better. [lips smack] And I had a dream that she was just there, just sitting with me. And my mom was like me. She never shut up. [chuckles] She would just constantly talk and talk over you, and I got that from her, her very energetic... She also cried constantly, and for, for joy, tears of joy. She would listen to music and start crying because it was so beautiful. I realize I got that from her. Most of the really warm things in me came from her. And in this dream, she just sat there silently, and I kept talking to her. I don't remember what I was saying, but I just kept talking to her, and she just sat there quietly and just was patting my leg.... and I, I remember I woke up, and I felt, I felt very, like, calm. I felt very, like I'd spent time with her. [sniffs] And I thought to myself, "I think that that was something." I don't know if it was her visiting me. I don't know if it was God talking to me. I don't know if it was just my subconscious telling me something I needed to see. [sniffs] But I felt like it was saying to me that, you know, that sometimes the words got in the way between the two of us, and that maybe what really mattered the most was just that we were next to each other. And I tried to, since I had that dream, [sniffs] um, do that more with the people I love. It's, it's hard for me to stop talking, and I'm learning with my sons and with the people that I love, that sometimes just being next to them is nice, that I don't need to, uh... I'm really good at talking, so I just keep doing it, and that maybe sometimes it's nice to just stop and just be with someone. And so I felt like that that was a very powerful dream. It was a very simple dream, but it was one that it, it changed the way I'm trying to relate to people. [sniffs] See, you're having me cry again, man. You're killing me. [sniffs]

    15. SBSteven Bartlett2:04:00

        At the end of the day, it all comes back to love, doesn't it?

    16. JSJames Sexton2:04:03

        Yeah, it does. Isn't it funny?

    17. SBSteven Bartlett2:04:05

        All roads. [chuckles]

    18. JSJames Sexton2:04:06

        Isn't it funny? Like, we've added all these layers of complexity to it-

    19. SBSteven Bartlett2:04:11

        Yeah

    20. JSJames Sexton2:04:11

        ... and that's all it comes down to.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett2:04:12

        Isn't it crazy?

    22. JSJames Sexton2:04:13

        Yeah, it really is.

    23. SBSteven Bartlett2:04:14

        Someone asked me that on stage, like, last week. I was speaking in the Middle East somewhere, and they asked me about, like, "What does everybody want?" That was literally the question, and my answer was love, and we all- w- we're, like, confused about the path to it. So some of us think the path to it is like, "If I get the number one podcast, maybe that'll make..." Or-

    24. JSJames Sexton2:04:29

        Maybe that would mean I'm worthy of love.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett2:04:31

        Yeah, like, it-

    26. JSJames Sexton2:04:32

        Like, we've, we've, we've come to, we've come to associate accomplishment with being worthy of love, and that's really all that it is. Like, it's really all that it is. Like, what... Otherwise, what's the purpose of it? Like, how many supercars can one person have, and how much joy can they really give you? You can only drive them one at a time. You know, like, it really is about like, "No, I feel worthy. I feel worthy of love. I feel proud of who I am," which is, I'm proud of who I am, which means I'm worthy of love. It, it really all comes back to love. It really all comes back to love. The, the, the two things that late middle age is helping me see is that the hardest thing to become is yourself, your authentic self, and that really all any of us want is to be loved, like, and to be worthy of love, and that everything you have will add up to a great pile of nothing other than the people who you love and the people who loved you, and the experiences you had with those people. That's it. That's all that matters. Everything else is noise.

    27. SBSteven Bartlett2:05:43

        James, thank you.

    28. JSJames Sexton2:05:44

        Thank you. Always good to see you.

    29. SBSteven Bartlett2:05:47

        Good to see you, too. YouTube have this new crazy algorithm where they know exactly what video you would like to watch next based on AI and all of your viewing behavior, and the algorithm says that this video is the perfect video for you. It's different for everybody looking right now. Check this video out, and I bet you, you might love it.

Episode duration: 2:06:05