Dwarkesh PodcastJacob Kimmel on Dwarkesh Patel: Why Evolution Ignored Aging
Why the high ancestral hazard rate cut longevity's gradient signal; editing TRIM5alpha shows epigenetic reprogramming can outpace evolution.
At a glance
WHAT IT’S REALLY ABOUT
Why Evolution Neglected Longevity And How Epigenetics May Fix It
- Dwarkesh Patel interviews Jacob Kimmel, president and co‑founder of NewLimit, about why evolution did not optimize humans for long, healthy lifespans and how epigenetic reprogramming could partially reverse cellular aging.
- Kimmel frames evolution as an inefficient optimizer constrained by high early-life mortality, kin selection, and mutation/population limits, arguing that longevity received little direct selection pressure compared to infectious disease resistance.
- He explains NewLimit’s strategy: using large-scale perturbation experiments and AI models to find combinations of transcription factors that remodel the epigenome of specific human cell types to a more youthful, functional state.
- The conversation broadens into delivery technologies, the idea of a ‘virtual cell’ foundation model for drug discovery, economic incentives in pharma, and how general aging therapies could reshape healthcare costs and industry structure.
IDEAS WORTH REMEMBERING
5 ideasEvolution optimized for reproduction under high hazard rates, not long healthspan.
For most of human and primate history, daily mortality from infection, predation, and accidents was so high that few individuals reached ages where late-life health mattered for selection, so genomes accumulated little signal to extend lifespan or preserve fluid intelligence into old age.
Aging is multi-causal and under-optimized, making it a promising engineering target.
Kimmel argues there is no single ‘aging gene’; instead multiple regulatory layers, especially epigenetics, degrade over time—and because evolution never deeply optimized lifespan, there may be relatively tractable “low-hanging fruit” for interventions compared to traits evolution did optimize hard.
Epigenetic reprogramming via transcription factors can substantially alter cell age and identity.
Four Yamanaka factors can revert adult cells to embryonic stem cells, proving that a tiny set of transcription factors can reset both cell type and age; NewLimit aims to find safer combinations that make old cells functionally young without changing their identity or triggering tumors.
Scaling Perturb‑seq-like experiments with AI is key to finding useful TF combinations.
Because there are roughly 1,000–2,000 TFs and combinatorial space is ~10^16, exhaustive lab screening is impossible; NewLimit uses single-cell transcriptomics and models (initialized with protein language models) to learn how TF combinations move cells in “state space” and to predict which combos rejuvenate cells.
Delivery constraints mean early longevity drugs will target specific organs and cell types.
Lipid nanoparticles and AAV vectors only reach certain tissues well, so initial reprogramming therapies will likely focus on tractable cells like hepatocytes or immune cells—but because organs are highly interconnected, rejuvenating one (e.g., liver or bone marrow) can yield systemic health benefits.
WORDS WORTH SAVING
5 quotesYou always have to start by asking yourself, ‘Did evolution spend a lot of time optimizing this? If yes, my job is going to be insanely hard. If no, potentially there are some low-hanging fruit.’
— Jacob Kimmel
You can reprogram a cell's type and a cell's age simultaneously just by turning on four genes. Out of the 20,000 genes in the genome... just four genes is enough. That's a shocking fact.
— Jacob Kimmel
TRIM5alpha once protected against an HIV-like pathogen... it's currently protecting against a virus which no longer exists, and you can edit it back to actually restrict HIV dramatically.
— Jacob Kimmel
Most of science is problem selection. You don't actually get better at pipetting after a certain age, but you do get better at picking what to do.
— Jacob Kimmel
Pharmaceuticals are the one place in healthcare where technology has made us more efficient… for a given dollar unit of expense, you can access more pharmaceutical technology today than has ever been possible in history.
— Jacob Kimmel
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