Broadway's Leslie Odom Jr. & Nicolette Robinson Talk Parenting

Dr. Becky 0:00 I live in New York City, and I've always loved Broadway. The energy, the emotion, the way a performance can make you feel something so deeply. Just the other day, I saw a show and tears were streaming down my face, tears I didn't know I clearly had to let out. This is why I'm especially excited about my guest today. I'm talking with Leslie Odom Jr. He's the original Aaron Burr from Hamilton. He's the voice you hear on the soundtrack, and his incredible wife, also an amazing artist, Nicolette Robinson. You might know her from Waitress. We end up talking about topics that are relevant for everyone: the relationship they have with their families of origin, what it really means to be a cycle breaker, and the amazing life they've created offstage. This is a conversation that's going to resonate with you deeply, because Leslie and Nicolette really show up. They're real, they're honest, and they constantly put words to things that most of us think in the back of our mind, but maybe have never actually heard someone say. I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Good Inside. We'll be back right after this. [upbeat music] Hi.

Nicolette Robinson 1:12 Hi.

Dr. Becky 1:13 So happy to have you guys here. Okay, we're gonna cover so many different things. Let's just orient ourself. I mean, I think when people probably see the two of you, they see, which is true, these stars, like, so much success, and, you know, grace and this chemistry, and performers that you've been, and a- all, just so much amazingness there. And I think probably what they don't see is, I don't know, the work, the recalibration, what's led here. Um, and so maybe we can just start, I'd love to hear, like, tell me a little bit about who you are that isn't just so obvious on the stage or on the screen.

Nicolette Robinson 1:54 You wanna tell who I am, and I'll tell who you are?

Dr. Becky 1:56 Ooh, I love that.

Leslie Odom Jr. 1:57 Sure, I like that.

Nicolette Robinson 1:58 Yeah.

Leslie Odom Jr. 1:59 Then, yes. Oh, Nicolette comes from a family of performers, entertainers, entertainment-type people. And, um, I [laughs] I'm gonna talk about her like she's not here, but, um, you know, the thing that actually attracted me most about Nicolette is that, you know, she is more talented than she'd even have to be. She's more gifted than she'd even have to be. You know, her parents did this wonderful job of, um, raising a beautiful person. You know, it's not about... I- if she was ugly inside, she'd be not as attractive outside. You know, the first few years that we were dating, I just kept waiting for the other shoe to drop. You know? Like, when am I gonna see the other side-

Dr. Becky 2:49 Yeah

Leslie Odom Jr. 2:49 ... of this person? And it's just who she is. She's just-

Dr. Becky 2:51 Ugh

Leslie Odom Jr. 2:51 ... a good per- good inside.

Dr. Becky 2:53 Mm.

Leslie Odom Jr. 2:53 You know? She's really just a good-

Dr. Becky 2:55 Yeah

Leslie Odom Jr. 2:55 ... human being. Her parents did such a fantastic job. Um, but she's also grown. We've been together 17 years now, so I've also seen her really grow from a young woman, you know, girlish, to this, to this boss, you know?

Dr. Becky 3:11 Yeah.

Leslie Odom Jr. 3:11 She really does... Not only does she manage her career in such an intentional and, um, thoughtful, eh, personal way, you know, the way she does her business is not the way that I do my business. I've grown to respect that. Um, but she really manages our little family like a, like a company, like a... You guys have a lot in common. You know, when I, when I met you on the street, I was like, "My wife is gonna freak out." And then I-

Nicolette Robinson 3:41 Which I did

Leslie Odom Jr. 3:41 ... because, uh, yeah, I think that you guys would have a lot in common. She, she is-

Dr. Becky 3:44 We vibe.

Nicolette Robinson 3:45 Yeah.

Leslie Odom Jr. 3:45 Yeah. She just, she, she gets things done. So, um, I could go on and on.

Dr. Becky 3:51 Yeah.

Leslie Odom Jr. 3:51 But she's my favorite. She's my favorite actor. Uh, she's my favorite person to spend time with outside of our kids. Um, and yeah.

Nicolette Robinson 4:03 Aw.

Leslie Odom Jr. 4:04 That's my girl.

Nicolette Robinson 4:05 He said... That's very sweet. [laughs]

Dr. Becky 4:06 That really is.

Nicolette Robinson 4:08 Aw. I secretly said that we should talk about each other just to make him talk about me.

Dr. Becky 4:12 I mean, by the way, that's gonna be my new go-to.

Nicolette Robinson 4:15 I think-

Dr. Becky 4:15 Like, who doesn't wanna hear someone say nice things about them? So-

Nicolette Robinson 4:17 That's so sweet. When do you ever really do that-

Dr. Becky 4:19 Seriously

Nicolette Robinson 4:19 ... with your partner?

Dr. Becky 4:19 Thank you for the new interview structure. So-

Nicolette Robinson 4:21 I love that. [laughs] Well, um-

Dr. Becky 4:24 Yeah, who's Leslie?

Nicolette Robinson 4:25 Leslie is a Leo to the core. [laughs]

Dr. Becky 4:32 My third is a Leo, so let me just-

Nicolette Robinson 4:33 So you know how that is. I mean, um, vibrant, a host with a capital H.

Dr. Becky 4:41 Mm.

Nicolette Robinson 4:41 Loves to host a room, whether it's friends or, you know, people he's just met. I mean, you know, you, you guys went to go see his show, and afterwards you're, you're hosting during the show-

Dr. Becky 4:55 Mm-hmm

Nicolette Robinson 4:55 ... and then you're also hosting afterwards, and, you know, he takes a lot of pride in, um, making people feel seen-

Dr. Becky 5:02 Mm

Nicolette Robinson 5:02 ... and feel welcome. And, um, he's, what a lot of people don't know is that he's deeply sensitive and, and sweet. And honestly, just watching him be a father is just, um, seeing a whole side of him that, you know, the guy who's on stage who's just this dynamite explosion of talent, and, um, uh, seeing him as a dad is just, like, so [laughs] special, and, um, he's just so loving and so playful and silly, and way more patient than I am, I think. Um, and, and I think a big thing that I'll say, just having been together for 17 years and really, um, you know, you go on this journey together and you see each other from the start. I was 20 when we started dating. He was 27. When we started dating, and that's, you know, going from that to whatever ages we are right now. [laughs] Um, we-

Leslie Odom Jr. 6:12 Just, we can't do math, right? You can't do math.

Dr. Becky 6:14 No, don't do math.

Nicolette Robinson 6:14 No.

Dr. Becky 6:14 There's no math on this podcast.

Nicolette Robinson 6:15 Yeah. Mm-mm.

Leslie Odom Jr. 6:16 [laughs]

Nicolette Robinson 6:17 Um, we, uh, I- I've witnessed this man, um, grow in a way that, that I don't even know if I could grow in the way that he has. I mean, I think that what's so special about you is [sighs] he's so willing to dive in and do the work.

Dr. Becky 6:38 Mm.

Nicolette Robinson 6:39 You know, being a Leo, there's a, there's a stubbornness I feel like. There's a thing that, like, you are so intelligent and so, um, good at what he does, so it's, um, he's not always wrong very often, or he doesn't think he's wrong very often, but when you can really, um, get to him and convince him to understand, you know, your side or whatever it is that we're learning about, he is so willing to acknowledge when there is room to grow and to change. And he, um, even just over the past year, I've seen him become, uh, a whole new person in the most beautiful way. Yeah.

Dr. Becky 7:20 You know, when I think about, like, marriage a- and what we all take on, in some ways, like, the best thing you can say or try to get to know about your partner is if they're open to change.

Nicolette Robinson 7:29 Mm.

Dr. Becky 7:30 Because however you are when you meet... Like, I, I always think when you get married to someone, you're kind of like, "Okay, this distance is what feels good to us." And each person's gonna grow, and so the only way for you to stay that close is if, like, both people are committed, or you're both committed to not growing, which is really sad, right?

Nicolette Robinson 7:45 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky 7:46 Um, and being open and being willing, you know, to that process, um, knowing you're gonna change, and y- you know, you're willing to do that, I think is, is something I'll tell my kids to, like, look out for in a partner. [laughs]

Nicolette Robinson 7:58 Yeah, and you decide as you go, you know, are we growing together?

Dr. Becky 8:01 Yeah.

Nicolette Robinson 8:01 Are we growing in the same direction? Are we growing in a way that we want to continue this?

Dr. Becky 8:05 Yeah.

Nicolette Robinson 8:06 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 8:07 Absolutely.

Nicolette Robinson 8:07 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky 8:08 Okay, I'm gonna come back to that and to parenting, but I, I actually wanna... I always like to start, 'cause I feel like some of that starts earlier. So as, as actors, performers, you know, what I think about so often is so many times the people who are successful in those crafts in adulthood, I, I don't know, like, they had, they had a lot of creativity. They had a lot of energy. They weren't necessarily in the box, you know, the easiest kids. I don't know. Like, what, what was it like? [laughs] Yeah, what, what, what hits you about that? Like, and where did your creativity, um, your art kind of... Where did that start?

Nicolette Robinson 8:41 We were both very, very different kids growing up.

Dr. Becky 8:44 Okay.

Nicolette Robinson 8:45 Um, and very different households-

Dr. Becky 8:48 Mm

Nicolette Robinson 8:48 ... as well. And so I mean, for me, I, I... My mom was a choreographer growing up, and so I, I s- grew up sitting against the rehearsal mirrors just watching dance rehearsals of musicals and shows, and my dad was always at the piano, and my dad was directing things and teaching acting classes. And so it was really around me in that way, and then, um, my mom was my dance teacher in high school, so I really c- got into acting then.

Dr. Becky 9:16 Yeah.

Nicolette Robinson 9:16 But I was the kinda kid that I was a very well-behaved [laughs] kid, and I wouldn't say that this one. [laughs] Um, but I was the kid that would just be in her room, you know, sitting in front of the mirror, like, dreaming about pretending different acting films and-

Dr. Becky 9:34 Mm-hmm

Nicolette Robinson 9:35 ... scenes and, um, super nerdy in that way. But I, I was just a lot more... What is, what's this word that I'm-

Dr. Becky 9:44 Contained?

Nicolette Robinson 9:44 Yeah, contained-

Dr. Becky 9:45 Contained

Nicolette Robinson 9:45 ... probably.

Dr. Becky 9:45 Mm-hmm.

Nicolette Robinson 9:46 But still very vibrant and loved, you know-

Dr. Becky 9:48 Yeah

Nicolette Robinson 9:48 ... getting involved in extracurriculars and stuff, but I think this one can, uh, share a different experience.

Dr. Becky 9:53 A little slightly different story?

Nicolette Robinson 9:54 Yeah.

Leslie Odom Jr. 9:55 Yeah, I mean, I, I grew up in a house with a fair amount of trauma, and so I, I think... I'd love to know what you think about this, but I kind of think that a kid is gonna express themselves somewhere. They're gonna come apart somewhere, and, um, I wasn't allowed to come apart at home, so I came apart, you know, I tested the limits and d- did all that stuff outside the home. Um, our kids are the opposite, you know? Our kids oftentimes in school and stuff, you know, people are meeting the best versions of our kids because they come apart at home-

Nicolette Robinson 10:28 Yeah

Leslie Odom Jr. 10:28 ... which I think is-

Nicolette Robinson 10:29 You feel safe

Leslie Odom Jr. 10:29 ... and we're trying that. Yeah, we're trying that.

Nicolette Robinson 10:31 Yeah.

Leslie Odom Jr. 10:31 It feels... Yeah, I was much safer at school, to be honest.

Nicolette Robinson 10:33 Yeah, yeah.

Leslie Odom Jr. 10:34 Um, so yeah, and I think that, um, I've been thinking, uh, s- quite a bit about myself as a child and what led to where I've arrived 'cause in so many ways I've arrived at the life that I always dreamed about as a kid, and that's really only recently that I've, um, really become aware of that. It's a really satisfying thing, and I think that, um, you know, I don't, I don't do... I- I- if you'll permit me to talk about myself for a second, I, I think that one of the things that might be interesting about me is, um, sort of how alive my, my internal world can be. You know, when people watch me, there's a lot going on inside, and, and for the first time it's, I'm, that's what it was as a kid. I had so m- I had a whole world going on in here that I was not allowed to express. I had to keep it all inside, so I got really good at that. I got really... I mean, there were so many things that I wanted to say. There were so many feelings, you know what I mean? Like, there were so many... I wanted to lash out, I wanted to... But outside it was, you know, whatever mask I was required to have in my house. And so anyway, I've put it to good use, you know, these... I, I do think that, you know, when I'm at my best, if you're watching me, there can be something compelling about- I mean, that, that performer is always thinking. There's something happening in there, right? And that's what my childhood was like.

Dr. Becky 12:15 Yeah. So you really remember that. Like, you, you-

Leslie Odom Jr. 12:18 I really do

Dr. Becky 12:18 ... your internal life was so-

Leslie Odom Jr. 12:20 Oh

Dr. Becky 12:21 ... alive.

Leslie Odom Jr. 12:21 Yes. That, that was the only place I was alive.

Dr. Becky 12:24 Yeah.

Leslie Odom Jr. 12:25 I was, I was waiting for my autonomy. I was waiting to be free so that I could live fully, so that I could live joyfully. We were so, um, controlled. It was such a... You know, it was just such a stifling environment that I had... I, I, I lived fully inside, and I was waiting to get out of there so that I could live outside, too.

Dr. Becky 12:48 So how did you then... I mean, there's so many avenues that could have come out in, some maladaptive or some at least that would have been ending up being harmful to you.

Leslie Odom Jr. 12:55 Mm.

Dr. Becky 12:55 And it seems like performing is, you know, a, is a healthy avenue for that. But how did you... But how did you find it?

Leslie Odom Jr. 13:02 It's a miracle.

Dr. Becky 13:02 Or did, how did it find you?

Leslie Odom Jr. 13:04 It's a miracle.

Dr. Becky 13:05 Mm, it's a miracle for sure.

Leslie Odom Jr. 13:05 You know?

Dr. Becky 13:05 Yeah. [laughs]

Leslie Odom Jr. 13:05 It's just like... I mean, yeah, no, a childhood like that can just as easily kill you.

Dr. Becky 13:11 Yeah.

Leslie Odom Jr. 13:11 [laughs] You know? But that's the thing, you know, and sometimes it's, um, it can be a frustrating thing. It's such a wild thing to survive that and to have a person that was responsible for that kind of look at you and say, "Well, how bad could I have done? Look at, look at you."

Dr. Becky 13:31 Hmm.

Leslie Odom Jr. 13:33 That's really the r- the response. You know, I, I couldn't have been too bad because look how successful you are. And it's, you know, it, it can leave you speechless because, [laughs] you know, it negates all your hard work, all the work you've done to heal, all the work you've done to, to make choices, to make, to be different. It's, it, y- y- yeah, m- my life has been in response to that, in response to that unhealthiness, in response to... Right? But, um, yeah, uh, it's a miracle. I mean, 'cause it, it could just as easily have taken me down many, many horrible paths.

Dr. Becky 14:06 How do you deal with that now, that type of response? Or is your family still in your life?

Leslie Odom Jr. 14:12 Um, I have, I h- made the difficult decision to, um, to separate myself from some people. And, and that's just really just, you know, that, that's really an act of love, too. It's an act of love for myself and an act of love for them because there was a real part of me that wanted to change them.

Dr. Becky 14:36 Yep. Mm.

Leslie Odom Jr. 14:36 And I've finally accepted them for who they are.

Dr. Becky 14:39 Yeah.

Leslie Odom Jr. 14:40 They're never gonna change, and they don't have to change for me. And so we-

Dr. Becky 14:44 Yeah. I, I, I really wanna thank you for sharing that. I know there are so many people listening, and I, I, I hear from so many people who I think are in a, in very similar situations. And the, the truth is, all we can do as a kid when we're in a situation that's overwhelming or scary, where our needs aren't getting met, we can't, we can't stop trying because the idea that, well, that's who they are, and I guess I can just change. You're like, well, you're five. Well, you're eight. Like, good luck surviving on your own. So it's a really adaptive thing for a kid to, in some ways, this idea of, like, take in the badness. Is the world bad, or are my parents kinda bad? Am I bad? And they kinda think in those black and white terms. And then as long as you take in the badness, you have agency. Okay, if only this or if only that, if I could do this, if I could do that. And to feel helpless, eh, you know, there's this quote that I always come back to from Fairburn that says, "For kids, it's better to be a sinner in a world ruled by God than to live in a world ruled by the Devil."

Leslie Odom Jr. 15:43 Hmm.

Dr. Becky 15:45 And I think we can have a lot of compassion then, even as adults, when you're like, "Yeah, it is true. I am 20 now," or, "I am 45 now, and I could survive on my own." But I guess that idea of trying to change and trying to make it my fault and figuring out what I could do, I kinda get mad at myself now for doing that. But, but that came from a really crafty, really adaptive place for all the years that my brain was wiring and thought it was protecting me. And so when we think about it that way, I think, like, we can have a lot of love and compassion for ourselves and separate a little, okay, well, now it is, now I'm an adult, right? And, and I can start to make different decisions. And so-

Leslie Odom Jr. 16:24 And there was conditioning because it was, you know, when you are raised by one or two emotionally immature people, um, or however many emotionally immature people are around you, you know, there is a... Part of the conditioning is, "Look what you made me do," that I'm not in control of the way I act, you are.

Dr. Becky 16:51 You made me.

Leslie Odom Jr. 16:52 You made- You... I don't wanna be this guy. Look what you... You know what I mean? Yeah, I destroyed the house. I ripped it all up, but that's pe- right? And so y- like you said, you, you learn as a kid, oh, you know, when, when the house is going to shit, who did it? It's not that person's fault.

Dr. Becky 17:08 No.

Leslie Odom Jr. 17:09 Who set it off, right?

Dr. Becky 17:11 Yep. Yes.

Leslie Odom Jr. 17:12 So yeah, you, you, you are conditioned in that way that, that you are responsible for the weather. You are responsible.

Dr. Becky 17:20 And again, think about how terrifying it is for anyone here. Like, as a kid, well, if there can be a really scary storm at any moment, and the only thing I can say to myself is, "It's not my fault. I guess that just happens," but I, but I live here. Okay, like, you, you can't really survive those two things at once. Like, I could be at the brunt of a horrible storm, nothing I can do to decrease the likelihood. It's not really my fault. Uh, that, that, that actually isn't something a child could tolerate and continue day to day. So I guess I'm, yeah, I, I made my dad, I made my mom act that way. Even if they don't even say it to me, which a lot of parents do, I, I'm gonna feel that way anyway. So then if they say it, it's just confirmation, right? And it's such a different model of managing your emotions, which is some version of something happened. By the way, it might have involved my kid. That brought up frustration, but My behavior around that, my reaction to that, how I manage the frustration, by the way, that is ... I always tell parents, "That has nothing to do with your kid. That predated your kid's existence," right? [laughs] And I think that's such an active cycle breaking for so many of us, right? My kid not listening in the morning, yeah, of course that's frustrating. Do I yell because I'm frustrated with my kid? No, I yell because I can't manage my frustration [laughs] , right? Big difference.

Nicolette Robinson 18:44 Huge. Also think like I feel like cycle breaking [laughs] is a huge-

Dr. Becky 18:51 Mm

Nicolette Robinson 18:51 ... thing right now for so many people.

Dr. Becky 18:54 Yes.

Nicolette Robinson 18:54 And, um, I just think i- i- uh, what he's done in this season, in this past year, setting boundaries for himself and re- recognizing the cycle that he can step out of-

Dr. Becky 19:09 Yes

Nicolette Robinson 19:09 ... and have boundaries that can protect him has changed his life, but also it's affected my life-

Dr. Becky 19:16 Yes

Nicolette Robinson 19:16 ... affected our kids, it's-

Dr. Becky 19:17 Yes

Nicolette Robinson 19:17 ... affected everybody that's around him. I mean, yeah.

Dr. Becky 19:21 A- and a- I want ... Boundaries are my favorite topic. Actually, there's so many things I'll lie about-

Nicolette Robinson 19:24 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky 19:24 ... and I'll say it's my favorite topic, but it always feels true-

Nicolette Robinson 19:26 It's a good one

Dr. Becky 19:27 ... when I say that, okay?

Nicolette Robinson 19:28 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 19:28 Boundaries really are-

Nicolette Robinson 19:29 [laughs]

Dr. Becky 19:30 But they really are my number one.

Nicolette Robinson 19:31 [laughs]

Dr. Becky 19:32 Um, but, but I wanna link it to what you just said and then just come back to your understanding of boundaries and how it plays out. Because if you think about the lesson we all, so many kids learned, you made me do that, it's a boundaryless communication. There's no boundary between something I do and your terrif- you know, terrifying reaction, whatever it is. So, so many of us grew up in households where like, well, whose feelings are whose? Who's responsible for what? Are, are completely commingled. There's no boundary there. If I'm responsible for, I'm making this up, but my dad, my mom drinking a lot and, and hitting or yelling or ruining the house, then like there's no boundr- I, people are like, I don't even know what a boundary is, right?

Nicolette Robinson 20:18 Completely.

Dr. Becky 20:20 So, so what are boundaries? Yeah. T- tell me more about that journey around boundaries. I have so many thoughts about boundaries, but I wanna start with yours and what that's looked like, felt like.

Nicolette Robinson 20:28 Mm. I think we're still learning. I mean, we're, it's a constant, constant learning. But-

Dr. Becky 20:33 Yeah

Nicolette Robinson 20:34 ... uh, really, again, again, talking about this year and-

Dr. Becky 20:39 Yeah

Nicolette Robinson 20:40 ... and what we've sort of discovered about-

Dr. Becky 20:45 Yeah

Nicolette Robinson 20:45 ... these boundaries with family and, um, toxic energies in your life, it's, uh, it, I think that ... [laughs] I just had a completely new thought. You know, when you-

Dr. Becky 21:04 Yeah

Nicolette Robinson 21:04 ... like in mom brain-

Dr. Becky 21:05 Sure

Nicolette Robinson 21:05 ... where you're just like ... I, I, I do wanna say that as we are, you know, growing and discovering-

Dr. Becky 21:13 Yeah

Nicolette Robinson 21:13 ... this, this relationship with boundaries, um, I am most proud of the progress that we've made when I see little moments with our kids-

Dr. Becky 21:23 Mm

Nicolette Robinson 21:23 ... of, of, um, them recognizing their, uh, not responsibility necessarily, but maybe responsibility, but moments where I know if I took responsibility for my energy or my, you know, if I did yell, or things that you talk about a lot. I read Good Inside.

Dr. Becky 21:43 Awesome. [laughs]

Nicolette Robinson 21:44 But [laughs] um, the moments that I've recognized, you know, it's time for me to repair a moment and come back, I've seen them model that, and those are the moments that I really feel like, okay, we're making progress. They're hearing me. I'm doing a good job. [laughs]

Dr. Becky 22:01 Yes.

Nicolette Robinson 22:02 And because I'm setting boundaries for myself and then coming back and recognizing, "I, uh, I probably shouldn't have spoken to you like that, and I'm gonna also give you space 'cause it looks like you, you-

Dr. Becky 22:14 Yeah

Nicolette Robinson 22:14 ... you've asked for some space, so I'm gonna give you that." Or even asking for my own space in the moment.

Dr. Becky 22:19 Mm.

Nicolette Robinson 22:20 Um-

Dr. Becky 22:21 What does that sound like?

Nicolette Robinson 22:22 So, you know, practicing.

Dr. Becky 22:24 Yeah.

Nicolette Robinson 22:24 I'm still learning, but-

Dr. Becky 22:25 You're doing great

Nicolette Robinson 22:26 ... [laughs] I'm really trying. I, I really come to him all the time. I'm like, "Okay, Dr. Becky said we can do this thing."

Dr. Becky 22:31 Yes.

Nicolette Robinson 22:31 "We'll have our strategy meetings." Um, yeah, I, uh, our son is four.

Dr. Becky 22:38 Yeah.

Nicolette Robinson 22:38 So he has his, he's having, uh, you know, super high emotions at times where he doesn't know what to do with his body, and it can turn really physical. And so I'm working on, um, you know, I, I'm going to, I, I'll try to stop him from hitting, if that's what it is. "I'm not going to let you hit me right now, and I'll try to stay as calm as possible." But, um, if I can't get it to stop, I'm just saying, "I'm gonna go take some space from me because I don't like the way my body feels right now, and I don't like the way that you're ... I don't like, um, I don't like to be hit or..." You know?

Dr. Becky 23:14 Yeah.

Nicolette Robinson 23:15 "So I'm going to go out for a bit."

Dr. Becky 23:16 Yeah.

Nicolette Robinson 23:16 And usually, I don't know, that response is like, "No, don't leave."

Dr. Becky 23:19 Yeah. Well-

Nicolette Robinson 23:19 [laughs] But-

Dr. Becky 23:21 That's so beautiful.

Nicolette Robinson 23:21 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 23:22 And I think there is this weird message we've gotten, especially recently in parenting, like i- in some ways, like all about the kid.

Nicolette Robinson 23:29 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky 23:29 Like, like this martyrdom, this, in, in some ways, like martyrdom is another form of boundarylessness.

Nicolette Robinson 23:35 Ooh.

Dr. Becky 23:36 Think about it.

Nicolette Robinson 23:36 Sure.

Dr. Becky 23:36 I mean, it's like I, I always say that it just is something I try to think about in the back of my head when I'm making decisions like that. Like I know I need space or I need to do something for myself, my, my, my kid's upset about it. Like, I don't want my kid to be like, "My mom loved me so much she ran herself into the ground."

Nicolette Robinson 23:51 Mm.

Dr. Becky 23:52 Like, I, I don't want that about my... I don't want that story.

Nicolette Robinson 23:55 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 23:55 I don't want that model for their partnership one day. I, I don't want that model for love means one partner always gets what they want while the other one's running themselves into the ground and becoming invisible and resentful, and that's when we become rageful and-

Nicolette Robinson 24:07 Completely

Dr. Becky 24:08 ... right? And so, no, and, and stopping that cycle means setting boundaries earlier than we think. To say like, "I, I need space."

Nicolette Robinson 24:16 Ooh.

Dr. Becky 24:16 Right? And yeah, it doesn't feel good to a kid to say, "You're crazy. No one can be around you like that."

Nicolette Robinson 24:22 [laughs]

Dr. Becky 24:22 It's like, all right. But- That's very different.

Nicolette Robinson 24:25 Mm.

Dr. Becky 24:25 Someone's like, "Yeah, so that means I can't take space?" No, there's many ways to take space, people.

Nicolette Robinson 24:29 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky 24:29 Okay? That's one. Another one is maybe even a half second before, "Hey, I'm, I'm feeling my body feeling hot and activated. I need a moment to myself. You're a good kid."

Nicolette Robinson 24:39 Mm.

Dr. Becky 24:40 "I'm going to step out. I'll be back in a little bit. I love you." The, the space is taken both ways, but it, it's completely different.

Nicolette Robinson 24:47 That's a good one to try to do it before [laughs] it spirals out of control.

Dr. Becky 24:52 Well, and the best way to do that-

Nicolette Robinson 24:53 Yeah

Dr. Becky 24:53 ... honestly, is to talk to your kids in calm moments and just say, "Do you know something I'm gonna do from now on? You know sometimes we're in your room and things get a little, you know, it can get a little hairy. Like-"

Nicolette Robinson 25:03 Yeah

Dr. Becky 25:03 ... you know, let's call a spade a spade.

Nicolette Robinson 25:05 [laughs]

Dr. Becky 25:05 "One of the things I'm gonna do is tell you earlier when I need a deep breath."

Nicolette Robinson 25:10 Mm.

Dr. Becky 25:11 "And I want you to know in advance that doesn't mean I'm leaving forever. It doesn't mean you did anything to me. We all have moments when we recognize we need something."

Nicolette Robinson 25:22 Mm.

Dr. Becky 25:22 "And actually, you're gonna start having moments like that, too, in your relationships, and that is such a powerful thing." So by almost saying it, like, over dinner... And by the way, just, I, I always, like, tell parents he's not gonna be like, "That's profound."

Nicolette Robinson 25:35 [laughs] Mm-hmm, no.

Dr. Becky 25:36 No.

Nicolette Robinson 25:36 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 25:36 He's gonna be like, "Can I have pretzels?"

Nicolette Robinson 25:38 Yeah, yeah.

Leslie Odom Jr. 25:38 Right, right.

Dr. Becky 25:38 Like kids always say.

Nicolette Robinson 25:39 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 25:39 But they hear it.

Nicolette Robinson 25:40 They do.

Leslie Odom Jr. 25:40 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 25:40 And also the next time you're, like, in his room, it's weird when you've already said it in advance, it's almost like you've already heard yourself promise you're gonna do it and, and they've heard it. So then it's not as much like, "Don't leave me." It's like, "Oh, you're... You know, and you could call it. I'm gonna call it banana, so I'm gonna say to you, 'Banana.' 'Oh, Mom's doing her banana thing.'" Whatever it is. Um, and I do think it makes that boundary setting, uh, uh, it's never easy, but it, it makes it a little less than impossible, you know?

Nicolette Robinson 26:06 That's great. I love that.

Dr. Becky 26:09 And Leslie, what do boundaries mean to you? Like, when you, you're talking about setting boundaries, like, what, what did you used to do? Did you have a different definition of boundaries than you do now? Was it just never a word in your vocabulary?

Leslie Odom Jr. 26:18 It wasn't really a word in my vocabulary. I di- I didn't really understand it. And, um, I mean, what are the... Uh, you know, when I think about it, you know, I just, yeah, I just finally think I have a defined self.

Dr. Becky 26:37 Mm.

Leslie Odom Jr. 26:38 I know, I know where I end and where other people begin. And so I just, I'm s- I'm aware for the first time in my life that other people, yeah, that, that's not a reflection on me. That's, that's not about me. I, you know, I used to take, um, this poor person, you know, uh, it's totally not her fault, but as a result of all this childhood mess, you know, I, like, if, because I felt like I was working so hard to make her happy, right? Like, uh, you know, I'm, I'm working so hard, it, you know, and, and not, not just to make her happy, but I want her to be happy.

Nicolette Robinson 27:23 Me?

Leslie Odom Jr. 27:24 That... Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nicolette Robinson 27:24 Oh, oh. [laughs]

Leslie Odom Jr. 27:25 That, that every, that anytime she's in a foul mood or, you know, that it's about me.

Dr. Becky 27:31 Mm.

Leslie Odom Jr. 27:33 You know? Like, it's, it's just a weird, it's this weird thing, you know, when you're raised by this narcissism thing, you know, you can take on some of the traits that, yeah, that everything somehow becomes about you. It's like, you know, so a boundary, what a... It's, it's just set me free so gloriously, that not every, not every mood [laughs] is about me. Most of them are not about me. And I, you know, I don't have to take them on, and when somebody says, when somebody says they need space, that doesn't have to be about you. And you can s- that I can say that. I, I'm allowed to say I need space, and that I w- I'm allowed to put myself on the list in that way. 'Cause there's also the, the martyr thing. There's this weird thing that happens, or certainly was happening to me, is that you can't help but be resentful. There's a part of you that is tired, that feels taken advantage of. There's a part of you that you're not listening to, and you're taking that out on people. They didn't even ask you to do that. They didn't ask you to treat yourself like garbage so that you could put them first, you know? And so then any problem that they have, you're flying off the handle because you haven't taken care of yourself. But nobody asked you to do... You just, it's this weird thing. And so boundary, I've said it, I, I, I know where I end and where other people begin.

Dr. Becky 28:50 Yeah.

Nicolette Robinson 28:52 You know what's interesting about that is I feel like balance is such a weird, a tricky word, because nothing's ever really fully balanced in our lives. I mean, you know, some version of it, I think. But I think having some version of balance where, with a loved one, if it's, you know, if it's with my kids, I, I'm trying lately to do, like, 20 minutes, starting slow, 20 minutes of just actively putting my phone to the side so that I can have that one-on-one time with my kids so that they see it, you know? Um, so that when I do need the space, I can, I have a little bit of that balance, and same with relationships. You know, with, with us it's, you know, now that we've been doing that work and ha- having some sort of self-care-

Dr. Becky 29:37 Yeah

Nicolette Robinson 29:38 ... um, when we do actually need that space, I've, I know I've been kind and loving to him because I've been in myself. You know, for, for me, I, I started Lexapro this summer, and I've, for years I've always had this up and down with depression, and mostly started with anxiety, and I just... You know, you start to gaslight yourself and you think, "I don't, I don't need to do it this way. I, I can just, like, you know, go to therapy, do the health thing, and exercise and all that." And, and this summer it really... Sarah Brella's really helped me, because she was very vocal about it, and she was just vocal about how life-changing medication can be. And I, so I decided to try that myself, and, like, the idea of having a little bit of help to just balance myself so that I can be In myself again. It was so emotional at the time, and I, um, I started it, and it's life-changing. It's been life-changing for me. I feel like I can be myself again, and I can be, uh, resourced and able to, you know, um, have a little more balance in my life so that my kids, when I do take boundaries, when I do set boundaries, they don't think it's about them, you know? Yeah.

Dr. Becky 30:58 First of all, thank you for sharing that. It, it... Is there, is there a specific moment, like anyone that comes to mind that you're like, "I just feel like pre-summer me might have done X or felt X about something, and now I see it as Y"?

Nicolette Robinson 31:11 Oh, yeah. I mean, w- really, motherhood was, uh, it was so challenging for me 'cause I would have days where... And I talk about this with one of my best friends. She has two toddlers. Two, you know, she's in the thick of it right now.

Dr. Becky 31:23 Mm-hmm.

Nicolette Robinson 31:23 And she was saying, "There, there are some days where I, I feel like I can count on one hand, or I can count just a small amount of wins of where I'm like, 'I got this.'" And then most of the rest of the time you're just, like-

Dr. Becky 31:37 Yep

Nicolette Robinson 31:37 ... trying to survive. And, and it really felt like that all the time for me. And there were mornings where I would wake up, and I was so deep in it that I just, like, didn't wanna get out of bed. And I, you know, I just felt like, "Why am I not, why am I not doing a good job at this?" And I, I think, you know, Les has been telling me, he's like, "You do do a great job." But it was just internally what I was going through, I, I just could not... E- any, any little thing would just make me feel depleted and like, "This is so hard." And now if my kid has a meltdown, I don't feel like the whole day is ruined and, like-

Dr. Becky 32:21 Mm

Nicolette Robinson 32:21 ... I've just completely failed, and, like, this is the hardest thing ever. I'm-

Dr. Becky 32:25 Yeah

Nicolette Robinson 32:25 ... I'm able to just let it wash off my back [laughs] -

Dr. Becky 32:28 Yeah, yeah

Nicolette Robinson 32:28 ... and, and, and know that we're doing the best that we possibly can.

Dr. Becky 32:31 Yeah.

Nicolette Robinson 32:31 And, and I can still have a great day. And it, I really was not having that-

Dr. Becky 32:37 Wow

Nicolette Robinson 32:37 ... in the summer.

Dr. Becky 32:38 You know, I- I- I recently thought that, like, some days and, and the toddler stage, and the, the, e- there's so many hard stages, but the meltdowns and the whining. And, you know, I think people are surprised to hear me say, like, sometimes the on- the only true difference you can have between a day is whether it feels impossible or hard.

Nicolette Robinson 32:54 Mm.

Dr. Becky 32:54 Like, hard is sometimes the best it gets.

Nicolette Robinson 32:56 [laughs] Sure.

Dr. Becky 32:57 Impossible, it sounds like some of your days and mornings were impossible.

Nicolette Robinson 33:00 There were some impossible days. [laughs]

Dr. Becky 33:02 And that's so real when we feel that way, and it's so important to say, "There's various types of support I can seek, and all of them are a sign of strength," like to seek any of them.

Nicolette Robinson 33:11 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 33:11 Um, and I think it's also just so important, like a parent will say, like, "I have three kids," and like, like, truly, the other day, like, one of my kids was screaming, and they're so upset. And I know they were sad they weren't invited to a slumber party. My other one is having a meltdown about not getting attention. And then my baby, I see them with, like, a Sharpie marker on my brand-new wallpaper. Like, what do I do? And I'm like, "I don't know."

Nicolette Robinson 33:32 [laughs]

Dr. Becky 33:33 A- and they're like, "What?" And I was like, "You, you think there's any human who's gonna tell you something?" T- you-

Nicolette Robinson 33:38 That's gonna fix it

Dr. Becky 33:39 ... you survive.

Nicolette Robinson 33:40 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 33:41 You try not to make it too much worse.

Nicolette Robinson 33:43 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky 33:44 Y- you take a deep breath, and, and you give yourself something at the end of the night. And, and, a- and the reason I think that's so important is sometimes certain days, it, they don't get better than hard. Like a meltdown, nobody's like, "Love the meltdown."

Nicolette Robinson 33:58 No. [laughs]

Dr. Becky 33:58 But you can get to a place where you're like, "This stinks."

Nicolette Robinson 34:01 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 34:02 Not my favorite part of the day, and it's also not coloring all my day, or it doesn't color my whole identity of how I thought about myself as a mother. That gets real dark, and that's the thing that it's true, and I'm so glad you brought it up. Like, that's the thing I tell parents. Like, you, you don't have to feel that way. There, there's things that can help you just go to hard. [laughs]

Nicolette Robinson 34:23 Absolutely. And also just, like, um, it also makes you more equipped to deal with it in a way that, that will help them get through it so much faster. [laughs]

Dr. Becky 34:33 True.

Nicolette Robinson 34:33 You know, if, if I'm not spiraling with the tantrum, and I can keep my calm-

Dr. Becky 34:39 Yes

Nicolette Robinson 34:39 ... and, um, he repairs so beautifully at times. And it, and it, it's, uh, surprising and beautiful. And, um, I'm able to feel more present and more joy when I see it, when I feel it. So yeah, I, if that helps anybody just be-

Dr. Becky 34:57 Oh my goodness

Nicolette Robinson 34:58 ... a, a-

Dr. Becky 34:58 That's gonna help everybody.

Nicolette Robinson 34:59 I hope. Yeah.

Dr. Becky 35:01 Tell me about proudest moment recently for each of you in parenting, and also hardest, hardest moment or hardest thing, the hardest part of it. And it could just be a proud moment that felt like a really high bar.

Nicolette Robinson 35:14 Yeah, proud is hard.

Dr. Becky 35:14 Sorry. Like, I'm just gonna bring that bar down.

Nicolette Robinson 35:16 [laughs]

Leslie Odom Jr. 35:16 No, proudest, I'll tell you your proudest. You-

Nicolette Robinson 35:18 Oh

Leslie Odom Jr. 35:18 ... the video you sent yesterday-

Nicolette Robinson 35:20 Ah

Leslie Odom Jr. 35:20 ... of Abel waking up.

Nicolette Robinson 35:23 Aw. Same.

Leslie Odom Jr. 35:23 You know, they, 'cause they happen, they happen like that.

Nicolette Robinson 35:27 Yeah. Yeah, we'd been going through a really hard phase, which has been, like, on and off for the last, I don't know, month or two. But our son, who, who's still, he's just so sweet, he had been waking up in the mornings and, and with me especially, [laughs] you, just, like, one thing would set him off, and then the morning would be just really challenging. And he woke up the other morning, and he looked out the window. And he was, he was just, went straight to the window, and he was looking at the sunrise. It was a beautiful pink in the sky. And he's so, you know, observant and curious, and he was just looking at the sky and saying, "Look how beautiful it is, Mama." And then he was talking about the clouds and saying, "I wish I could eat the clouds." [laughs] And I was like, "They taste like-

Leslie Odom Jr. 36:21 "I wanna eat the clouds for breakfast."

Nicolette Robinson 36:22 "I wanna eat the clouds for breakfast."

Leslie Odom Jr. 36:24 Oh.

Nicolette Robinson 36:24 "They taste like marshmallows."

Leslie Odom Jr. 36:26 Yeah.

Nicolette Robinson 36:26 And then he had had a fit, a tantrum the night before, and he's in a bit of a destructive phase, so he had been, like, throwing stuff. And he threw this vase that I really love, and it chipped some of it off. And he went and he grabbed the vase and he said I'm sorry for breaking this, Mama. On his own, and he was like, "But look, it's only a tiny piece. I think we can fix it." And he, he also s- 'cause last night I said I really loved that vase, and he... So today, this morning, that morning, he woke up and was like, "I love it, too." [laughs] And it was just like-

Leslie Odom Jr. 36:59 You- she sent me the video of it.

Nicolette Robinson 37:01 It's-

Leslie Odom Jr. 37:01 Very sweet

Nicolette Robinson 37:01 ... I, I grabbed the-

Dr. Becky 37:03 Oh

Nicolette Robinson 37:03 ... 'cause he was going on-

Dr. Becky 37:04 Yeah

Nicolette Robinson 37:04 ... and on about the sky, and then I didn't know he was gonna go pick up the vase and-

Dr. Becky 37:07 Oh my goodness

Nicolette Robinson 37:08 ... so it's moments like that where you're like, they are listening.

Dr. Becky 37:11 They are.

Nicolette Robinson 37:12 And, and he was able to, you know, in a moment of calm and, and beauty and [laughs] it was, it was very sweet and, and it felt, that was a definite proud moment.

Dr. Becky 37:23 Oh, and, and look, I mean, the kids who notice everything. There are kids who notice more than other kids. Like, my middle is like this. Like, she sees things, she smells. Like, she won't go in any New York City garage, but, and not 'cause, b- by the way, none of them smell great, but she describes this smell that I don't smell at all, and I feel like in the past people would say to that kid, like, "You're dramatic." Like, I- I'm like, "You are a super sensor."

Nicolette Robinson 37:49 I, I-

Dr. Becky 37:49 You smell things-

Nicolette Robinson 37:50 I get it

Dr. Becky 37:50 ... you notice things.

Nicolette Robinson 37:51 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 37:51 Right? And you also then fe- feel things-

Leslie Odom Jr. 37:55 Yeah

Dr. Becky 37:55 ... more intensely. You do. I, I think so many of those kids do become performers. They become the comedians who notice all the little things that the rest of us are like, "Oh yeah, it is like that," but we would've never-

Nicolette Robinson 38:06 Yeah

Dr. Becky 38:06 ... put it together, and it's hard to be a kid who's so perceptive and kind of absorbent-

Nicolette Robinson 38:11 Mm

Dr. Becky 38:12 ... in the world, which results both to the things he struggles with and to these amazing moments of-

Nicolette Robinson 38:18 Yeah

Dr. Becky 38:18 ... appreciating the beauty and, you know, the, the imagined taste of a cloud.

Nicolette Robinson 38:24 Mm.

Dr. Becky 38:24 [laughs] Right?

Leslie Odom Jr. 38:25 Totally.

Nicolette Robinson 38:26 Oh, I know. So sweet.

Leslie Odom Jr. 38:28 I was proud of, um, Lucy this morning. Um, you know, small thing, but, um, Abel, you know, he's four, so he was, he was missing it, but she wasn't taking the bait. I was very proud of her. She was b- she was being a very good big sister. She was trying.

Nicolette Robinson 38:47 Yeah.

Leslie Odom Jr. 38:48 She really was trying to be the bigger person. She was, you know, she was trying to connect with him. She was trying to watch the thing he wanted to watch, and he was missing it, but she was... And it was frustrating her a little bit, but she wasn't taking the bait. She didn't go where he went.

Dr. Becky 39:02 Yeah.

Leslie Odom Jr. 39:02 You know? And so, um, I was proud of her.

Dr. Becky 39:05 S- s- sounds like she has some boundaries. Like, "Whoa-

Leslie Odom Jr. 39:08 Yeah

Dr. Becky 39:08 ... you're doing something there, and I'm not gonna fully..."

Nicolette Robinson 39:10 She is learning the boundaries.

Dr. Becky 39:11 Yeah.

Leslie Odom Jr. 39:12 Yeah, it's good. We have to, we have to, like, we, we've had m- a few conversations [laughs] with her-

Dr. Becky 39:17 Yeah

Leslie Odom Jr. 39:17 ... about that.

Nicolette Robinson 39:17 Yeah.

Leslie Odom Jr. 39:18 And this morning, anyway, she was able to remember.

Dr. Becky 39:21 Yeah, you know, something I always think about those moments, and I- I haven't thought about it between siblings. I haven't even said this to my own kids, but I think about it whenever my kid is like, like, asking me to join in something that I know is gonna be unproductive [laughs] , you know? You kind of... It's like-

Nicolette Robinson 39:34 Mm

Dr. Becky 39:34 ... i- it's like inviting someone to, like, a horrible party. It's like, "Do you wanna come to a party where we're both gonna end up yelling, we're both gonna probably cry, there's gonna be power struggles?" And you know what I'd say? I'd, I'd be like, "No."

Leslie Odom Jr. 39:45 Yeah, yeah. [laughs]

Nicolette Robinson 39:45 Absolutely no. [laughs]

Dr. Becky 39:46 That sounds like a horrible party. You know? And our kids keep inviting us.

Nicolette Robinson 39:50 Oh.

Dr. Becky 39:51 But, like, if we think about it that way with a little humor, like, they can keep inviting us. W- w- we know the kind of parties we enjoy, and it, and I even think for kids, like, there's, like, look, your brother's gonna invite you to things. Some are gonna be awesome things. Some are gonna be not as awesome, and we saw you say no to the kind of party [laughs] that's one of the ones that wasn't gonna be fun for either of you. That was so cool you could tell the difference, 'cause isn't that such a life skill?

Leslie Odom Jr. 40:16 It's great.

Dr. Becky 40:17 Right?

Nicolette Robinson 40:17 I love that.

Leslie Odom Jr. 40:18 I love that.

Nicolette Robinson 40:18 I think they'll get a kick out of that, too.

Dr. Becky 40:19 Yeah.

Nicolette Robinson 40:19 They'll think it's funny, is like, "I'm not going to that party." [laughs]

Dr. Becky 40:23 Exactly.

Nicolette Robinson 40:24 You know?

Dr. Becky 40:24 You gotta add a little humor to these-

Nicolette Robinson 40:26 Yeah

Dr. Becky 40:26 ... these moments.

Nicolette Robinson 40:26 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 40:26 Okay, what, what about the hardest, the hardest thing about parenting for each of you?

Leslie Odom Jr. 40:30 I mean, balance is hard, especially right now. You know? Um, there's just, um... A- a- and in the l- in the grand scheme of things, m- my life is balanced because, um, you know, I w- I, I've learned to work with a certain amount of unemployment, a certain amount of free time. It's, I'm never not doing anything, but you know, there's times when my, my time is not accounted for for anybody except for myself, so in those times, I'm up with the kids and I'm, you know, "You sleep in, babe. I'll walk 'em," and I, you know, I'm cooking-

Dr. Becky 41:10 Yeah

Leslie Odom Jr. 41:10 ... dinner, and you know, there's those... So I have, I can have that for months and months, and then I have a time where, you know, I'm exhausted in the morning 'cause I have a night job.

Dr. Becky 41:20 Right.

Leslie Odom Jr. 41:20 And I, you know, I'm exhausted in the morning, and you know, um, they're gone during the day, and I'm leaving right when they're getting home, so that can, you know, that's hard for me in this season, remembering, um, that it's not always like this, you know? That's, that's tough for me right now.

Dr. Becky 41:40 Yeah.

Nicolette Robinson 41:40 [laughs] I laughed because this morning he woke up, um-

Dr. Becky 41:45 [laughs]

Leslie Odom Jr. 41:46 So funny

Nicolette Robinson 41:47 ... at 7:30. I, I wake up, or it was, it was 7:15 or something. I wake up at 6:20 because I try to wake up, like, 10 minutes-

Dr. Becky 41:55 Yeah

Nicolette Robinson 41:55 ... before the kids.

Leslie Odom Jr. 41:55 Which I did, like, two days ago.

Nicolette Robinson 41:57 Yeah, you're, you're-

Leslie Odom Jr. 41:58 And I, like-

Nicolette Robinson 41:58 This is no judgment. I know this

Leslie Odom Jr. 41:59 ... I know, but two days ago, I let you sleep in, right?

Nicolette Robinson 42:01 You did.

Leslie Odom Jr. 42:01 So, like, I, I-

Nicolette Robinson 42:02 You did, yeah

Leslie Odom Jr. 42:02 ... it felt like that. It felt like another one of those mornings.

Nicolette Robinson 42:04 [laughs] This morning he, he woke up, came into the kitchen. We'd been up for a long time, and he was like, "I really thought I was waking up, I was gonna wake up and just let you sleep in for the morning," and [laughs] I was like-

Leslie Odom Jr. 42:17 Yeah, I thought for su- oh, for sure it's, you know, this is, it must be, like, 5:30.

Nicolette Robinson 42:20 [laughs]

Leslie Odom Jr. 42:21 Just let me, let me, let me let Nic sleep in. They've been up for hours.

Nicolette Robinson 42:25 [laughs]

Dr. Becky 42:26 [laughs]

Leslie Odom Jr. 42:26 I didn't know what time it was.

Nicolette Robinson 42:28 But yeah, I, I think the hardest, one of the hardest things-

Dr. Becky 42:31 Mm-hmm

Nicolette Robinson 42:31 ... for me, and you know, m- uh, moms, [sighs] it's, it's an interesting relationship with kids, and I, I'm sure, uh, uh, depending on your household, it, the, whatever the parent is, that it serves the role that I serve.

Dr. Becky 42:47 Mm-hmm.

Nicolette Robinson 42:48 It's an interesting, um, role to, to take on, because there's a lot, um- You sort of hold everybody's pain and their joy and their... You, you hold a lot of it. We carry so much in the day. And so yeah, finding that, that space for myself-

Dr. Becky 43:11 Yeah

Nicolette Robinson 43:11 ... finding the, the self-care, the balance of that, and really, um, yeah, I think anxiety has been a huge journey for me at, through motherhood. It really just got exponentially bigger when I had kids.

Dr. Becky 43:26 Yeah.

Nicolette Robinson 43:26 And so I think, uh, honestly, this journey of, of taking medication for the anxiety has-

Dr. Becky 43:33 Yeah

Nicolette Robinson 43:33 ... has really helped to show that, um, maybe it won't be my biggest challenge. I mean, it's alway- there's always anxiety and things.

Dr. Becky 43:41 Yeah.

Nicolette Robinson 43:41 But, you know, in our, in our relationship, you know, Les has traveled way more. You know, we both travel for work and stuff, but for so much of our relationship he's been out of town and this and that. And so I've, you know, being at the house with the kids on my own-

Dr. Becky 43:57 Yeah

Nicolette Robinson 43:57 ... um, there's an anxiety that has come with that of, you know, if they're sick at night and I'm here by myself or whatever it is.

Dr. Becky 44:04 Yeah.

Nicolette Robinson 44:04 But yeah, I think I'm in discovering the self-care balance, um, which includes, uh, you know, that s- that kind of health, medication or whatever, whatever your journey is. Um, it's getting easier.

Dr. Becky 44:24 So before I move to my rapid fire questions at the end, I just ha- like what, what was it like for the two of you for like Hamilton's meteoric rise? 'Cause that was pre-kids. Okay. What, what was that like?

Nicolette Robinson 44:41 Crazy. [laughs]

Dr. Becky 44:42 [laughs]

Nicolette Robinson 44:44 Um...

Leslie Odom Jr. 44:45 It was tough for Nic because, um, um, we were for the first time, for the very first time we were in rooms where people were like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but him-

Dr. Becky 44:59 Yeah

Leslie Odom Jr. 44:59 ... or whatever," you know?

Dr. Becky 45:00 Yeah.

Leslie Odom Jr. 45:01 And, and it was tough for me because obviously, you know, I had to, I certainly felt like I had to take advantage of every single opportunity-

Dr. Becky 45:10 Yeah

Leslie Odom Jr. 45:10 ... and everything, you know, and I didn't really have the tools or the ti- make the time to check on her, you know, really in that way. So I think it was, it was tough for Nic, um, during that climb, during that rise. Things leveled out, you know, over time, and we've gone back and done repair and-

Nicolette Robinson 45:35 Yeah

Leslie Odom Jr. 45:36 ... going back in, you know, talking about how we wanted to do it this time, and, um, we've... Yeah, we, we've had the years to sort of, what was that, you know? And, and we don't want that to happen again. You know, how do I make sure that I don't let go of your hand in this room, you know? How do we make sure that we don't let somebody, you know, pull me away from you if, [laughs] you know what I mean, if I don't, um... Yeah, so that. It was like wonderful and strange.

Nicolette Robinson 46:13 Yeah, it was, it was all the things. I mean, it was also so beautiful and so magical, and some of the rooms that we were invited into were insane. And just getting to watch him for the first time wa- i- in real time watch people recognize how incredible he is, um, was incredibly emotional, incredibly, uh, um, a singular experience for sure. And we, we are so keenly aware of how, uh, what a rare moment that was and how lucky we are and how lucky we were to be able to go through that and to... But now, you know, like he said, I think, um, having grown, having g- ha- had some age and some life and some, and learned more about ourselves, um, we've, we're entering this second time with so much more healing and so much more awareness of, um, what we wanna invite in. And, um, so it's, it's been really beautiful to do it a, a second time.

Dr. Becky 47:22 Yeah.

Nicolette Robinson 47:23 Yeah. And with our kids this time-

Dr. Becky 47:25 Oh

Nicolette Robinson 47:25 ... which is cool.

Leslie Odom Jr. 47:26 The kids.

Nicolette Robinson 47:26 Yeah.

Leslie Odom Jr. 47:27 Yeah, they weren't even here the first time.

Nicolette Robinson 47:29 I know.

Dr. Becky 47:29 I know.

Leslie Odom Jr. 47:29 You know, I had this thought, but when I was going back in, you know, for the 10-year anniversary, 10 year, thinking a lot about this 10, 10, 10, and this was wild. So I remembered, okay, so 10 years ago my daughter wasn't here. I remember that. That doesn't feel like it's that terribly long ago. In this same amount of time, in theory she'll be waving goodbye on the way to college.

Nicolette Robinson 47:54 Oh.

Leslie Odom Jr. 47:54 Like, in this same amount of... Like, that's how fast it is.

Nicolette Robinson 47:57 Yeah.

Leslie Odom Jr. 47:57 She wasn't here. She's here, and then she's gonna be gone. What?

Nicolette Robinson 48:03 Well, let's not talk about gone, okay? Let's, uh-

Leslie Odom Jr. 48:05 No.

Nicolette Robinson 48:05 She still, she did ask me the other day if she could live with us when she's-

Dr. Becky 48:08 Some children do that

Nicolette Robinson 48:09 ... yeah. She's like, "Can I still..." [laughs]

Leslie Odom Jr. 48:11 She can. My, my baby girl can.

Nicolette Robinson 48:13 Yeah.

Leslie Odom Jr. 48:13 And my baby boy.

Nicolette Robinson 48:13 Yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Becky 48:15 [laughs]

Dr. Becky 48:15 Oh, okay, you guys ready for a rapid fire-

Leslie Odom Jr. 48:18 Let's go

Dr. Becky 48:18 ... round? I'm gonna go Nicolette and Leslie. Ready? First role you ever played.

Nicolette Robinson 48:22 Um, soccer girl on Party of Five TV show. [laughs]

Dr. Becky 48:26 Oh.

Nicolette Robinson 48:26 It was a little... Yeah. [laughs]

Leslie Odom Jr. 48:28 Martin Luther King in nursery school for the, for the Black history pageant.

Dr. Becky 48:35 One word to describe the feeling of performing.

Nicolette Robinson 48:38 Oh, God, you said rapid fire. I'm so bad at fast things. Um-

Leslie Odom Jr. 48:42 Transcendent.

Dr. Becky 48:43 Ooh.

Nicolette Robinson 48:44 Emotional.

Dr. Becky 48:45 Mm. Favorite show or movie you've seen recently.

Nicolette Robinson 48:50 Ooh.

Leslie Odom Jr. 48:52 Sinners.

Dr. Becky 48:53 Yeah.

Nicolette Robinson 48:53 Sinners, yeah. Can I copy?

Leslie Odom Jr. 48:55 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 48:56 Yeah.

Nicolette Robinson 48:56 Yeah, I love it.

Dr. Becky 48:57 You can join.

Nicolette Robinson 48:58 I can join.

Dr. Becky 48:58 Yeah.

Nicolette Robinson 48:58 I saw it twice. I can join. Yeah.

Dr. Becky 49:00 A, a parenting moment that knocked you off your chair. Funny, ridiculous-

Nicolette Robinson 49:05 Oh

Dr. Becky 49:06 ... offensive, just, "Oh my goodness, did that just happen?"

Leslie Odom Jr. 49:09 I remember, [laughs] this is one of my favorite stories. I remember Lucy was, um, she was, like, two, and, um, we had this, we had this very sweet housekeeper, um, uh, a couple times a week in LA that we loved, and she was, like, the most important person in the house. I used to tell, like, "Yo, I love all y'all-

Nicolette Robinson 49:30 [laughs]

Leslie Odom Jr. 49:30 ... but, like, Maria is number one in this house."

Nicolette Robinson 49:33 [laughs]

Leslie Odom Jr. 49:34 And Lucy was two, you know, and so she was one of them... She was like, uh, "I don't like you..." Her name was Maria.

Nicolette Robinson 49:40 Mm-hmm.

Leslie Odom Jr. 49:40 And this one day she said, "I don't like you, Maria. I don't like you, Ria."

Nicolette Robinson 49:43 [laughs]

Leslie Odom Jr. 49:44 And we went up to her-

Dr. Becky 49:45 She was like-

Leslie Odom Jr. 49:45 "You, we will put you right out of this house."

Nicolette Robinson 49:47 [laughs]

Leslie Odom Jr. 49:48 "You do not, you do not disrespect Maria."

Dr. Becky 49:50 You gotta fall in line.

Leslie Odom Jr. 49:51 And so, yeah, so we, we dragged her in her room. "You know, how dare she," right?

Dr. Becky 49:54 [laughs]

Leslie Odom Jr. 49:55 And then she comes back out, uh, you know, "I don't like Ria," or whatever. You know, she kept saying it.

Nicolette Robinson 49:59 [laughs]

Leslie Odom Jr. 49:59 It was so-

Dr. Becky 50:00 Just for the reaction at that point

Leslie Odom Jr. 50:01 ... so embarrassing.

Nicolette Robinson 50:02 Yeah. [laughs]

Leslie Odom Jr. 50:03 And anyway, we, like, you know, this, before we knew about the genius of you, we took a breath-

Nicolette Robinson 50:08 Yeah. [laughs]

Leslie Odom Jr. 50:10 We just reset the energy-

Nicolette Robinson 50:11 Mm

Leslie Odom Jr. 50:12 ... and, um, and, you know, "Let's make some breakfast. Let's..." You know, and we, and we let it go. We, we stopped focusing on it.

Nicolette Robinson 50:18 Yeah.

Leslie Odom Jr. 50:18 And then a few minutes later, I never... I, to this day, I, I have a harder time with this than my kid, but she came on her own, at two-something years old, she, she went, "I do like you, Ria. I'm sorry for saying I don't like you." You know, that she came to that-

Nicolette Robinson 50:36 Yeah

Leslie Odom Jr. 50:36 ... on her own.

Nicolette Robinson 50:37 Yeah.

Leslie Odom Jr. 50:37 Knocked me off my chair. That, you know, and what it said to me was, as somebody who grew up in a, in a house with, where there was no repair ever-

Nicolette Robinson 50:45 Mm

Leslie Odom Jr. 50:46 ... that ag- there's something she's seeing.

Dr. Becky 50:48 Oh.

Leslie Odom Jr. 50:49 There's something that she's modeling, where she's not too proud-

Dr. Becky 50:52 That's right

Leslie Odom Jr. 50:53 ... e-

Nicolette Robinson 50:53 Mm

Leslie Odom Jr. 50:53 ... to, to admit when she's wrong. Yes, she's gonna make mistakes, but if she can come back and she can repair, she's gonna be all right.

Dr. Becky 51:00 And, and you know what you did, which I think is, is so beautiful, and so you obviously have this in you, we all do. Like, doing nothing, trusting, and giving time, I, I, I just think those three together are, like, the most underutilized strategy. Like, maybe I don't have to do anything in reaction. Maybe I could wait. Maybe I can trust. And, and, like, she, she proved that out. I can't even tell you how many times that my kids, I'm like, "I know you're lying about this," and I feel the need, based on all the old stuff, to be like, "You're lying to my f- what, face," whatever it is. What if I just wait? What, what if I wait?

Nicolette Robinson 51:37 Mm.

Dr. Becky 51:37 Let, I, I mean... [laughs]

Nicolette Robinson 51:40 [laughs] Caught it.

Dr. Becky 51:41 Well, exactly. Um, you know something about waiting.

Nicolette Robinson 51:44 Yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Becky 51:44 Right? So, but really, and it's-

Nicolette Robinson 51:47 Mm

Dr. Becky 51:47 ... it, it's amazing. Like, I can always, if I really wanna go yell at my kid later, I can do that. Full permission, Becky. I'm the adult. I can go yell later if I really feel the urge to scream at my child's face. You know? But, but it usually, it's usually not the first thing on my mind after a while, and sometimes before that, my kid's already done the thing that I would've yelled at them for not doing. And we all know, when you're yelled at, you know, and you're made feel like you're a bad kid, you think you're gonna do the thing then. No, now, now you feel stuck, and shame, and you know? So that, that, that's amazing. Last question. Your kids are older, and someone just says, like, "What was your mom like?" Or someone says, like, "What, what is your dad like?" And they start the sentence like, "Oh, my mom," or, "Oh, my dad," and they say one thing. What do you hope they say?

Nicolette Robinson 52:33 I hope they say, "My mom loves me more than anybody in this world, and my mom is sweet, and kind, and strong, and she's also taught me to, um, do things that I love for myself, too."

Leslie Odom Jr. 52:57 I hope they say, "My dad married well."

Dr. Becky 53:01 [laughs]

Leslie Odom Jr. 53:02 I... I hope they say, um-

Nicolette Robinson 53:04 You said enough nauseatingly nice things to me

Leslie Odom Jr. 53:07 ... uh, I, you know, I s- you know, I really hope that they say, like, you know, "My dad's a, my dad might be the kindest guy I know. My dad's a-

Dr. Becky 53:17 Mm

Leslie Odom Jr. 53:17 ... my dad's a kind guy."

Dr. Becky 53:19 Oh. Thank you both. This was, this was incredible. And I, I, I really have to say, the way that you, um, the way that you share, like, your stories and, and put things together in this coherent way, like, I just know that that, that takes, that takes, like, a lot of work to get there, to talk about things that were painful, to talk about lessons learned. Um, it's j- it's amazing to be in your presence, and I feel grateful t- to be let in, so thank you.

Nicolette Robinson 53:49 Me too, too.

Leslie Odom Jr. 53:49 Thanks, doc.

Nicolette Robinson 53:50 You've been, um, very present in our household, and really helped us through [laughs] a lot of really hard moments, more than you know. So thank you.

Leslie Odom Jr. 53:56 You are leading a generation-

Nicolette Robinson 53:57 Truly

Leslie Odom Jr. 53:58 ... of new parents-

Nicolette Robinson 53:58 Oh, yeah, we do

Leslie Odom Jr. 53:58 ... we appreciate you. Thank you for your work.

Nicolette Robinson 54:00 And we'll keep texting and asking questions all the time. [laughs]

Dr. Becky 54:03 Please do.

Nicolette Robinson 54:04 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 54:05 I'm finding it really hard to do any recap of this conversation, because every moment felt so important. I'll tell you the things that are loudest on my mind. Number one: the power of repair. When we repair with our kids, we are cycle breakers, and we also then will see them repair with others. That's incredible. Two: boundaries. Boundaries show us where we end and someone else begins. Of course they're important. And three: I love this idea of leaving a legacy of kindness. So powerful. Let's end the way we always do. Place your feet on the ground, [gentle music] and a hand on your heart, and let's remind ourselves even as we struggle on the outside, we remain good inside. I'll see you soon. [upbeat music]