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Broadway's Leslie Odom Jr. & Nicolette Robinson Talk Parenting

Leslie Odom Jr. (also known as Hamilton’s Aaron Burr) and Nicolette Robinson join Dr. Becky to talk childhood wounds, breaking cycles, raising spirited kids, and navigating success while staying close in marriage. They share honest stories about repair, self-preservation, growth, and creating a legacy of kindness for their kids. Get the Good Inside App by Dr. Becky: https://bit.ly/4fSxbzk Your Good Inside membership might be eligible for HSA/FSA reimbursement! To learn more about how to get your membership reimbursed, check out the link here: https://www.goodinside.com/fsa-hsa-eligibility/ Follow Dr. Becky on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drbeckyatgoodinside Sign up for our weekly email, Good Insider: https://www.goodinside.com/newsletter For a full transcript of the episode, go to [goodinside.com/podcast](http://goodinside.com/podcast). Thank you to our sponsor Hot Wheels. Check out our full series with Hot Wheels at [hotwheels.com/challengeaccepted](http://hotwheels.com/challengeaccepted). Thank you to our sponsor, Airbnb — because during the holidays, it’s nice to love your family *and* have your own space. Find your getaway or host your home at [airbnb.com/host](http://airbnb.com/host). Thank you to our sponsor Skylight. Head to [Skylight.com/BECKY](http://Skylight.com/BECKY) for $30 off their 15-inch calendars. This offer expires December 31st of this year. Thank you to our sponsor Zelle. When it counts, send money with Zelle. Ever wonder if your kid’s being… a little entitled? You’re not alone — and this live Q&A is for you. Join me for “How Not to Raise an A$$hole” on December 1st at 11:30 AM ET, where we’ll dig into why kids act ungrateful and how to build real empathy that lasts. Not yet a member? Join today and save your spot at [goodinside.com](http://www.goodinside.com?utm_source=&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=hownottoraiseanasshole_liveevent_dec_2025&utm_content=shownotes_20251125)

Dr. BeckyhostNicolette RobinsonguestLeslie Odom Jr.guest
Nov 25, 202555mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 1:12

    Dr. Becky sets the stage: Broadway emotion and why Leslie & Nicolette’s story matters

    1. BE

      I live in New York City, and I've always loved Broadway. The energy, the emotion, the way a performance can make you feel something so deeply. Just the other day, I saw a show and tears were streaming down my face, tears I didn't know I clearly had to let out. This is why I'm especially excited about my guest today. I'm talking with Leslie Odom Jr. He's the original Aaron Burr from Hamilton. He's the voice you hear on the soundtrack, and his incredible wife, also an amazing artist, Nicolette Robinson. You might know her from Waitress. We end up talking about topics that are relevant for everyone: the relationship they have with their families of origin, what it really means to be a cycle breaker, and the amazing life they've created offstage. This is a conversation that's going to resonate with you deeply, because Leslie and Nicolette really show up. They're real, they're honest, and they constantly put words to things that most of us think in the back of our mind, but maybe have never actually heard someone say. I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Good Inside. We'll be back right after this. [upbeat music] Hi.

  2. 1:12 – 7:20

    Seeing the people behind the performers: describing each other beyond fame

    1. NR

      Hi.

    2. BE

      So happy to have you guys here. Okay, we're gonna cover so many different things. Let's just orient ourself. I mean, I think when people probably see the two of you, they see, which is true, these stars, like, so much success, and, you know, grace and this chemistry, and performers that you've been, and a- all, just so much amazingness there. And I think probably what they don't see is, I don't know, the work, the recalibration, what's led here. Um, and so maybe we can just start, I'd love to hear, like, tell me a little bit about who you are that isn't just so obvious on the stage or on the screen.

    3. NR

      You wanna tell who I am, and I'll tell who you are?

    4. BE

      Ooh, I love that.

    5. LJ

      Sure, I like that.

    6. NR

      Yeah.

    7. LJ

      Then, yes. Oh, Nicolette comes from a family of performers, entertainers, entertainment-type people. And, um, I [laughs] I'm gonna talk about her like she's not here, but, um, you know, the thing that actually attracted me most about Nicolette is that, you know, she is more talented than she'd even have to be. She's more gifted than she'd even have to be. You know, her parents did this wonderful job of, um, raising a beautiful person. You know, it's not about... I- if she was ugly inside, she'd be not as attractive outside. You know, the first few years that we were dating, I just kept waiting for the other shoe to drop. You know? Like, when am I gonna see the other side-

    8. BE

      Yeah

    9. LJ

      ... of this person? And it's just who she is. She's just-

    10. BE

      Ugh

    11. LJ

      ... a good per- good inside.

    12. BE

      Mm.

    13. LJ

      You know? She's really just a good-

    14. BE

      Yeah

    15. LJ

      ... human being. Her parents did such a fantastic job. Um, but she's also grown. We've been together 17 years now, so I've also seen her really grow from a young woman, you know, girlish, to this, to this boss, you know?

    16. BE

      Yeah.

    17. LJ

      She really does... Not only does she manage her career in such an intentional and, um, thoughtful, eh, personal way, you know, the way she does her business is not the way that I do my business. I've grown to respect that. Um, but she really manages our little family like a, like a company, like a... You guys have a lot in common. You know, when I, when I met you on the street, I was like, "My wife is gonna freak out." And then I-

    18. NR

      Which I did

    19. LJ

      ... because, uh, yeah, I think that you guys would have a lot in common. She, she is-

    20. BE

      We vibe.

    21. NR

      Yeah.

    22. LJ

      Yeah. She just, she, she gets things done. So, um, I could go on and on.

    23. BE

      Yeah.

    24. LJ

      But she's my favorite. She's my favorite actor. Uh, she's my favorite person to spend time with outside of our kids. Um, and yeah.

    25. NR

      Aw.

    26. LJ

      That's my girl.

    27. NR

      He said... That's very sweet. [laughs]

    28. BE

      That really is.

    29. NR

      Aw. I secretly said that we should talk about each other just to make him talk about me.

    30. BE

      I mean, by the way, that's gonna be my new go-to.

  3. 7:20 – 8:08

    Marriage as a growth pact: staying connected while both people change

    1. BE

      You know, when I think about, like, marriage a- and what we all take on, in some ways, like, the best thing you can say or try to get to know about your partner is if they're open to change.

    2. NR

      Mm.

    3. BE

      Because however you are when you meet... Like, I, I always think when you get married to someone, you're kind of like, "Okay, this distance is what feels good to us." And each person's gonna grow, and so the only way for you to stay that close is if, like, both people are committed, or you're both committed to not growing, which is really sad, right?

    4. NR

      Mm-hmm.

    5. BE

      Um, and being open and being willing, you know, to that process, um, knowing you're gonna change, and y- you know, you're willing to do that, I think is, is something I'll tell my kids to, like, look out for in a partner. [laughs]

    6. NR

      Yeah, and you decide as you go, you know, are we growing together?

    7. BE

      Yeah.

    8. NR

      Are we growing in the same direction? Are we growing in a way that we want to continue this?

    9. BE

      Yeah.

    10. NR

      Yeah.

    11. BE

      Absolutely.

    12. NR

      Mm-hmm.

  4. 8:08 – 9:55

    Origins of artistry: two different childhoods and two different homes

    1. BE

      Okay, I'm gonna come back to that and to parenting, but I, I actually wanna... I always like to start, 'cause I feel like some of that starts earlier. So as, as actors, performers, you know, what I think about so often is so many times the people who are successful in those crafts in adulthood, I, I don't know, like, they had, they had a lot of creativity. They had a lot of energy. They weren't necessarily in the box, you know, the easiest kids. I don't know. Like, what, what was it like? [laughs] Yeah, what, what, what hits you about that? Like, and where did your creativity, um, your art kind of... Where did that start?

    2. NR

      We were both very, very different kids growing up.

    3. BE

      Okay.

    4. NR

      Um, and very different households-

    5. BE

      Mm

    6. NR

      ... as well. And so I mean, for me, I, I... My mom was a choreographer growing up, and so I, I s- grew up sitting against the rehearsal mirrors just watching dance rehearsals of musicals and shows, and my dad was always at the piano, and my dad was directing things and teaching acting classes. And so it was really around me in that way, and then, um, my mom was my dance teacher in high school, so I really c- got into acting then.

    7. BE

      Yeah.

    8. NR

      But I was the kinda kid that I was a very well-behaved [laughs] kid, and I wouldn't say that this one. [laughs] Um, but I was the kid that would just be in her room, you know, sitting in front of the mirror, like, dreaming about pretending different acting films and-

    9. BE

      Mm-hmm

    10. NR

      ... scenes and, um, super nerdy in that way. But I, I was just a lot more... What is, what's this word that I'm-

    11. BE

      Contained?

    12. NR

      Yeah, contained-

    13. BE

      Contained

    14. NR

      ... probably.

    15. BE

      Mm-hmm.

    16. NR

      But still very vibrant and loved, you know-

    17. BE

      Yeah

    18. NR

      ... getting involved in extracurriculars and stuff, but I think this one can, uh, share a different experience.

    19. BE

      A little slightly different story?

    20. NR

      Yeah.

  5. 9:55 – 12:48

    Leslie’s inner world as survival: trauma, control, and performance as an outlet

    1. LJ

      Yeah, I mean, I, I grew up in a house with a fair amount of trauma, and so I, I think... I'd love to know what you think about this, but I kind of think that a kid is gonna express themselves somewhere. They're gonna come apart somewhere, and, um, I wasn't allowed to come apart at home, so I came apart, you know, I tested the limits and d- did all that stuff outside the home. Um, our kids are the opposite, you know? Our kids oftentimes in school and stuff, you know, people are meeting the best versions of our kids because they come apart at home-

    2. NR

      Yeah

    3. LJ

      ... which I think is-

    4. NR

      You feel safe

    5. LJ

      ... and we're trying that. Yeah, we're trying that.

    6. NR

      Yeah.

    7. LJ

      It feels... Yeah, I was much safer at school, to be honest.

    8. NR

      Yeah, yeah.

    9. LJ

      Um, so yeah, and I think that, um, I've been thinking, uh, s- quite a bit about myself as a child and what led to where I've arrived 'cause in so many ways I've arrived at the life that I always dreamed about as a kid, and that's really only recently that I've, um, really become aware of that. It's a really satisfying thing, and I think that, um, you know, I don't, I don't do... I- I- if you'll permit me to talk about myself for a second, I, I think that one of the things that might be interesting about me is, um, sort of how alive my, my internal world can be. You know, when people watch me, there's a lot going on inside, and, and for the first time it's, I'm, that's what it was as a kid. I had so m- I had a whole world going on in here that I was not allowed to express. I had to keep it all inside, so I got really good at that. I got really... I mean, there were so many things that I wanted to say. There were so many feelings, you know what I mean? Like, there were so many... I wanted to lash out, I wanted to... But outside it was, you know, whatever mask I was required to have in my house. And so anyway, I've put it to good use, you know, these... I, I do think that, you know, when I'm at my best, if you're watching me, there can be something compelling about- I mean, that, that performer is always thinking. There's something happening in there, right? And that's what my childhood was like.

    10. BE

      Yeah. So you really remember that. Like, you, you-

    11. LJ

      I really do

    12. BE

      ... your internal life was so-

    13. LJ

      Oh

    14. BE

      ... alive.

    15. LJ

      Yes. That, that was the only place I was alive.

    16. BE

      Yeah.

    17. LJ

      I was, I was waiting for my autonomy. I was waiting to be free so that I could live fully, so that I could live joyfully. We were so, um, controlled. It was such a... You know, it was just such a stifling environment that I had... I, I, I lived fully inside, and I was waiting to get out of there so that I could live outside, too.

  6. 12:48 – 14:44

    ‘Look how successful you are’: the painful logic that minimizes harm

    1. BE

      So how did you then... I mean, there's so many avenues that could have come out in, some maladaptive or some at least that would have been ending up being harmful to you.

    2. LJ

      Mm.

    3. BE

      And it seems like performing is, you know, a, is a healthy avenue for that. But how did you... But how did you find it?

    4. LJ

      It's a miracle.

    5. BE

      Or did, how did it find you?

    6. LJ

      It's a miracle.

    7. BE

      Mm, it's a miracle for sure.

    8. LJ

      You know?

    9. BE

      Yeah. [laughs]

    10. LJ

      It's just like... I mean, yeah, no, a childhood like that can just as easily kill you.

    11. BE

      Yeah.

    12. LJ

      [laughs] You know? But that's the thing, you know, and sometimes it's, um, it can be a frustrating thing. It's such a wild thing to survive that and to have a person that was responsible for that kind of look at you and say, "Well, how bad could I have done? Look at, look at you."

    13. BE

      Hmm.

    14. LJ

      That's really the r- the response. You know, I, I couldn't have been too bad because look how successful you are. And it's, you know, it, it can leave you speechless because, [laughs] you know, it negates all your hard work, all the work you've done to heal, all the work you've done to, to make choices, to make, to be different. It's, it, y- y- yeah, m- my life has been in response to that, in response to that unhealthiness, in response to... Right? But, um, yeah, uh, it's a miracle. I mean, 'cause it, it could just as easily have taken me down many, many horrible paths.

    15. BE

      How do you deal with that now, that type of response? Or is your family still in your life?

    16. LJ

      Um, I have, I h- made the difficult decision to, um, to separate myself from some people. And, and that's just really just, you know, that, that's really an act of love, too. It's an act of love for myself and an act of love for them because there was a real part of me that wanted to change them.

    17. BE

      Yep. Mm.

    18. LJ

      And I've finally accepted them for who they are.

    19. BE

      Yeah.

    20. LJ

      They're never gonna change, and they don't have to change for me. And so we-

  7. 14:44 – 18:44

    How kids absorb blame to survive: responsibility, helplessness, and conditioning

    1. BE

      Yeah. I, I, I really wanna thank you for sharing that. I know there are so many people listening, and I, I, I hear from so many people who I think are in a, in very similar situations. And the, the truth is, all we can do as a kid when we're in a situation that's overwhelming or scary, where our needs aren't getting met, we can't, we can't stop trying because the idea that, well, that's who they are, and I guess I can just change. You're like, well, you're five. Well, you're eight. Like, good luck surviving on your own. So it's a really adaptive thing for a kid to, in some ways, this idea of, like, take in the badness. Is the world bad, or are my parents kinda bad? Am I bad? And they kinda think in those black and white terms. And then as long as you take in the badness, you have agency. Okay, if only this or if only that, if I could do this, if I could do that. And to feel helpless, eh, you know, there's this quote that I always come back to from Fairburn that says, "For kids, it's better to be a sinner in a world ruled by God than to live in a world ruled by the Devil."

    2. LJ

      Hmm.

    3. BE

      And I think we can have a lot of compassion then, even as adults, when you're like, "Yeah, it is true. I am 20 now," or, "I am 45 now, and I could survive on my own." But I guess that idea of trying to change and trying to make it my fault and figuring out what I could do, I kinda get mad at myself now for doing that. But, but that came from a really crafty, really adaptive place for all the years that my brain was wiring and thought it was protecting me. And so when we think about it that way, I think, like, we can have a lot of love and compassion for ourselves and separate a little, okay, well, now it is, now I'm an adult, right? And, and I can start to make different decisions. And so-

    4. LJ

      And there was conditioning because it was, you know, when you are raised by one or two emotionally immature people, um, or however many emotionally immature people are around you, you know, there is a... Part of the conditioning is, "Look what you made me do," that I'm not in control of the way I act, you are.

    5. BE

      You made me.

    6. LJ

      You made- You... I don't wanna be this guy. Look what you... You know what I mean? Yeah, I destroyed the house. I ripped it all up, but that's pe- right? And so y- like you said, you, you learn as a kid, oh, you know, when, when the house is going to shit, who did it? It's not that person's fault.

    7. BE

      No.

    8. LJ

      Who set it off, right?

    9. BE

      Yep. Yes.

    10. LJ

      So yeah, you, you, you are conditioned in that way that, that you are responsible for the weather. You are responsible.

    11. BE

      And again, think about how terrifying it is for anyone here. Like, as a kid, well, if there can be a really scary storm at any moment, and the only thing I can say to myself is, "It's not my fault. I guess that just happens," but I, but I live here. Okay, like, you, you can't really survive those two things at once. Like, I could be at the brunt of a horrible storm, nothing I can do to decrease the likelihood. It's not really my fault. Uh, that, that, that actually isn't something a child could tolerate and continue day to day. So I guess I'm, yeah, I, I made my dad, I made my mom act that way. Even if they don't even say it to me, which a lot of parents do, I, I'm gonna feel that way anyway. So then if they say it, it's just confirmation, right? And it's such a different model of managing your emotions, which is some version of something happened. By the way, it might have involved my kid. That brought up frustration, but My behavior around that, my reaction to that, how I manage the frustration, by the way, that is ... I always tell parents, "That has nothing to do with your kid. That predated your kid's existence," right? [laughs] And I think that's such an active cycle breaking for so many of us, right? My kid not listening in the morning, yeah, of course that's frustrating. Do I yell because I'm frustrated with my kid? No, I yell because I can't manage my frustration [laughs] , right? Big difference.

  8. 18:44 – 21:05

    Boundaries as cycle-breaking: defining where one person ends and another begins

    1. NR

      Huge. Also think like I feel like cycle breaking [laughs] is a huge-

    2. BE

      Mm

    3. NR

      ... thing right now for so many people.

    4. BE

      Yes.

    5. NR

      And, um, I just think i- i- uh, what he's done in this season, in this past year, setting boundaries for himself and re- recognizing the cycle that he can step out of-

    6. BE

      Yes

    7. NR

      ... and have boundaries that can protect him has changed his life, but also it's affected my life-

    8. BE

      Yes

    9. NR

      ... affected our kids, it's-

    10. BE

      Yes

    11. NR

      ... affected everybody that's around him. I mean, yeah.

    12. BE

      A- and a- I want ... Boundaries are my favorite topic. Actually, there's so many things I'll lie about-

    13. NR

      Mm-hmm

    14. BE

      ... and I'll say it's my favorite topic, but it always feels true-

    15. NR

      It's a good one

    16. BE

      ... when I say that, okay?

    17. NR

      Yeah.

    18. BE

      Boundaries really are-

    19. NR

      [laughs]

    20. BE

      But they really are my number one.

    21. NR

      [laughs]

    22. BE

      Um, but, but I wanna link it to what you just said and then just come back to your understanding of boundaries and how it plays out. Because if you think about the lesson we all, so many kids learned, you made me do that, it's a boundaryless communication. There's no boundary between something I do and your terrif- you know, terrifying reaction, whatever it is. So, so many of us grew up in households where like, well, whose feelings are whose? Who's responsible for what? Are, are completely commingled. There's no boundary there. If I'm responsible for, I'm making this up, but my dad, my mom drinking a lot and, and hitting or yelling or ruining the house, then like there's no boundr- I, people are like, I don't even know what a boundary is, right?

    23. NR

      Completely.

    24. BE

      So, so what are boundaries? Yeah. T- tell me more about that journey around boundaries. I have so many thoughts about boundaries, but I wanna start with yours and what that's looked like, felt like.

    25. NR

      Mm. I think we're still learning. I mean, we're, it's a constant, constant learning. But-

    26. BE

      Yeah

    27. NR

      ... uh, really, again, again, talking about this year and-

    28. BE

      Yeah

    29. NR

      ... and what we've sort of discovered about-

    30. BE

      Yeah

  9. 21:05 – 26:09

    Scripts for real life: taking space during conflict (without abandoning your child)

    1. NR

      ... where you're just like ... I, I, I do wanna say that as we are, you know, growing and discovering-

    2. BE

      Yeah

    3. NR

      ... this, this relationship with boundaries, um, I am most proud of the progress that we've made when I see little moments with our kids-

    4. BE

      Mm

    5. NR

      ... of, of, um, them recognizing their, uh, not responsibility necessarily, but maybe responsibility, but moments where I know if I took responsibility for my energy or my, you know, if I did yell, or things that you talk about a lot. I read Good Inside.

    6. BE

      Awesome. [laughs]

    7. NR

      But [laughs] um, the moments that I've recognized, you know, it's time for me to repair a moment and come back, I've seen them model that, and those are the moments that I really feel like, okay, we're making progress. They're hearing me. I'm doing a good job. [laughs]

    8. BE

      Yes.

    9. NR

      And because I'm setting boundaries for myself and then coming back and recognizing, "I, uh, I probably shouldn't have spoken to you like that, and I'm gonna also give you space 'cause it looks like you, you-

    10. BE

      Yeah

    11. NR

      ... you've asked for some space, so I'm gonna give you that." Or even asking for my own space in the moment.

    12. BE

      Mm.

    13. NR

      Um-

    14. BE

      What does that sound like?

    15. NR

      So, you know, practicing.

    16. BE

      Yeah.

    17. NR

      I'm still learning, but-

    18. BE

      You're doing great

    19. NR

      ... [laughs] I'm really trying. I, I really come to him all the time. I'm like, "Okay, Dr. Becky said we can do this thing."

    20. BE

      Yes.

    21. NR

      "We'll have our strategy meetings." Um, yeah, I, uh, our son is four.

    22. BE

      Yeah.

    23. NR

      So he has his, he's having, uh, you know, super high emotions at times where he doesn't know what to do with his body, and it can turn really physical. And so I'm working on, um, you know, I, I'm going to, I, I'll try to stop him from hitting, if that's what it is. "I'm not going to let you hit me right now, and I'll try to stay as calm as possible." But, um, if I can't get it to stop, I'm just saying, "I'm gonna go take some space from me because I don't like the way my body feels right now, and I don't like the way that you're ... I don't like, um, I don't like to be hit or..." You know?

    24. BE

      Yeah.

    25. NR

      "So I'm going to go out for a bit."

    26. BE

      Yeah.

    27. NR

      And usually, I don't know, that response is like, "No, don't leave."

    28. BE

      Yeah. Well-

    29. NR

      [laughs] But-

    30. BE

      That's so beautiful.

  10. 26:09 – 28:52

    Leslie’s boundary breakthrough: not everything is about me

    1. BE

      And Leslie, what do boundaries mean to you? Like, when you, you're talking about setting boundaries, like, what, what did you used to do? Did you have a different definition of boundaries than you do now? Was it just never a word in your vocabulary?

    2. LJ

      It wasn't really a word in my vocabulary. I di- I didn't really understand it. And, um, I mean, what are the... Uh, you know, when I think about it, you know, I just, yeah, I just finally think I have a defined self.

    3. BE

      Mm.

    4. LJ

      I know, I know where I end and where other people begin. And so I just, I'm s- I'm aware for the first time in my life that other people, yeah, that, that's not a reflection on me. That's, that's not about me. I, you know, I used to take, um, this poor person, you know, uh, it's totally not her fault, but as a result of all this childhood mess, you know, I, like, if, because I felt like I was working so hard to make her happy, right? Like, uh, you know, I'm, I'm working so hard, it, you know, and, and not, not just to make her happy, but I want her to be happy.

    5. NR

      Me?

    6. LJ

      That... Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    7. NR

      Oh, oh. [laughs]

    8. LJ

      That, that every, that anytime she's in a foul mood or, you know, that it's about me.

    9. BE

      Mm.

    10. LJ

      You know? Like, it's, it's just a weird, it's this weird thing, you know, when you're raised by this narcissism thing, you know, you can take on some of the traits that, yeah, that everything somehow becomes about you. It's like, you know, so a boundary, what a... It's, it's just set me free so gloriously, that not every, not every mood [laughs] is about me. Most of them are not about me. And I, you know, I don't have to take them on, and when somebody says, when somebody says they need space, that doesn't have to be about you. And you can s- that I can say that. I, I'm allowed to say I need space, and that I w- I'm allowed to put myself on the list in that way. 'Cause there's also the, the martyr thing. There's this weird thing that happens, or certainly was happening to me, is that you can't help but be resentful. There's a part of you that is tired, that feels taken advantage of. There's a part of you that you're not listening to, and you're taking that out on people. They didn't even ask you to do that. They didn't ask you to treat yourself like garbage so that you could put them first, you know? And so then any problem that they have, you're flying off the handle because you haven't taken care of yourself. But nobody asked you to do... You just, it's this weird thing. And so boundary, I've said it, I, I, I know where I end and where other people begin.

    11. BE

      Yeah.

  11. 28:52 – 35:01

    Mental health support in parenthood: Nicolette on Lexapro, anxiety, and ‘hard vs impossible’

    1. NR

      You know what's interesting about that is I feel like balance is such a weird, a tricky word, because nothing's ever really fully balanced in our lives. I mean, you know, some version of it, I think. But I think having some version of balance where, with a loved one, if it's, you know, if it's with my kids, I, I'm trying lately to do, like, 20 minutes, starting slow, 20 minutes of just actively putting my phone to the side so that I can have that one-on-one time with my kids so that they see it, you know? Um, so that when I do need the space, I can, I have a little bit of that balance, and same with relationships. You know, with, with us it's, you know, now that we've been doing that work and ha- having some sort of self-care-

    2. BE

      Yeah

    3. NR

      ... um, when we do actually need that space, I've, I know I've been kind and loving to him because I've been in myself. You know, for, for me, I, I started Lexapro this summer, and I've, for years I've always had this up and down with depression, and mostly started with anxiety, and I just... You know, you start to gaslight yourself and you think, "I don't, I don't need to do it this way. I, I can just, like, you know, go to therapy, do the health thing, and exercise and all that." And, and this summer it really... Sarah Brella's really helped me, because she was very vocal about it, and she was just vocal about how life-changing medication can be. And I, so I decided to try that myself, and, like, the idea of having a little bit of help to just balance myself so that I can be In myself again. It was so emotional at the time, and I, um, I started it, and it's life-changing. It's been life-changing for me. I feel like I can be myself again, and I can be, uh, resourced and able to, you know, um, have a little more balance in my life so that my kids, when I do take boundaries, when I do set boundaries, they don't think it's about them, you know? Yeah.

    4. BE

      First of all, thank you for sharing that. It, it... Is there, is there a specific moment, like anyone that comes to mind that you're like, "I just feel like pre-summer me might have done X or felt X about something, and now I see it as Y"?

    5. NR

      Oh, yeah. I mean, w- really, motherhood was, uh, it was so challenging for me 'cause I would have days where... And I talk about this with one of my best friends. She has two toddlers. Two, you know, she's in the thick of it right now.

    6. BE

      Mm-hmm.

    7. NR

      And she was saying, "There, there are some days where I, I feel like I can count on one hand, or I can count just a small amount of wins of where I'm like, 'I got this.'" And then most of the rest of the time you're just, like-

    8. BE

      Yep

    9. NR

      ... trying to survive. And, and it really felt like that all the time for me. And there were mornings where I would wake up, and I was so deep in it that I just, like, didn't wanna get out of bed. And I, you know, I just felt like, "Why am I not, why am I not doing a good job at this?" And I, I think, you know, Les has been telling me, he's like, "You do do a great job." But it was just internally what I was going through, I, I just could not... E- any, any little thing would just make me feel depleted and like, "This is so hard." And now if my kid has a meltdown, I don't feel like the whole day is ruined and, like-

    10. BE

      Mm

    11. NR

      ... I've just completely failed, and, like, this is the hardest thing ever. I'm-

    12. BE

      Yeah

    13. NR

      ... I'm able to just let it wash off my back [laughs] -

    14. BE

      Yeah, yeah

    15. NR

      ... and, and, and know that we're doing the best that we possibly can.

    16. BE

      Yeah.

    17. NR

      And, and I can still have a great day. And it, I really was not having that-

    18. BE

      Wow

    19. NR

      ... in the summer.

    20. BE

      You know, I- I- I recently thought that, like, some days and, and the toddler stage, and the, the, e- there's so many hard stages, but the meltdowns and the whining. And, you know, I think people are surprised to hear me say, like, sometimes the on- the only true difference you can have between a day is whether it feels impossible or hard.

    21. NR

      Mm.

    22. BE

      Like, hard is sometimes the best it gets.

    23. NR

      [laughs] Sure.

    24. BE

      Impossible, it sounds like some of your days and mornings were impossible.

    25. NR

      There were some impossible days. [laughs]

    26. BE

      And that's so real when we feel that way, and it's so important to say, "There's various types of support I can seek, and all of them are a sign of strength," like to seek any of them.

    27. NR

      Yeah.

    28. BE

      Um, and I think it's also just so important, like a parent will say, like, "I have three kids," and like, like, truly, the other day, like, one of my kids was screaming, and they're so upset. And I know they were sad they weren't invited to a slumber party. My other one is having a meltdown about not getting attention. And then my baby, I see them with, like, a Sharpie marker on my brand-new wallpaper. Like, what do I do? And I'm like, "I don't know."

    29. NR

      [laughs]

    30. BE

      A- and they're like, "What?" And I was like, "You, you think there's any human who's gonna tell you something?" T- you-

  12. 35:01 – 40:26

    Proudest moments + sibling boundaries: noticing repair, sensitivity, and humor as a tool

    1. BE

      Tell me about proudest moment recently for each of you in parenting, and also hardest, hardest moment or hardest thing, the hardest part of it. And it could just be a proud moment that felt like a really high bar.

    2. NR

      Yeah, proud is hard.

    3. BE

      Sorry. Like, I'm just gonna bring that bar down.

    4. NR

      [laughs]

    5. LJ

      No, proudest, I'll tell you your proudest. You-

    6. NR

      Oh

    7. LJ

      ... the video you sent yesterday-

    8. NR

      Ah

    9. LJ

      ... of Abel waking up.

    10. NR

      Aw. Same.

    11. LJ

      You know, they, 'cause they happen, they happen like that.

    12. NR

      Yeah. Yeah, we'd been going through a really hard phase, which has been, like, on and off for the last, I don't know, month or two. But our son, who, who's still, he's just so sweet, he had been waking up in the mornings and, and with me especially, [laughs] you, just, like, one thing would set him off, and then the morning would be just really challenging. And he woke up the other morning, and he looked out the window. And he was, he was just, went straight to the window, and he was looking at the sunrise. It was a beautiful pink in the sky. And he's so, you know, observant and curious, and he was just looking at the sky and saying, "Look how beautiful it is, Mama." And then he was talking about the clouds and saying, "I wish I could eat the clouds." [laughs] And I was like, "They taste like-

    13. LJ

      "I wanna eat the clouds for breakfast."

    14. NR

      "I wanna eat the clouds for breakfast."

    15. LJ

      Oh.

    16. NR

      "They taste like marshmallows."

    17. LJ

      Yeah.

    18. NR

      And then he had had a fit, a tantrum the night before, and he's in a bit of a destructive phase, so he had been, like, throwing stuff. And he threw this vase that I really love, and it chipped some of it off. And he went and he grabbed the vase and he said I'm sorry for breaking this, Mama. On his own, and he was like, "But look, it's only a tiny piece. I think we can fix it." And he, he also s- 'cause last night I said I really loved that vase, and he... So today, this morning, that morning, he woke up and was like, "I love it, too." [laughs] And it was just like-

    19. LJ

      You- she sent me the video of it.

    20. NR

      It's-

    21. LJ

      Very sweet

    22. NR

      ... I, I grabbed the-

    23. BE

      Oh

    24. NR

      ... 'cause he was going on-

    25. BE

      Yeah

    26. NR

      ... and on about the sky, and then I didn't know he was gonna go pick up the vase and-

    27. BE

      Oh my goodness

    28. NR

      ... so it's moments like that where you're like, they are listening.

    29. BE

      They are.

    30. NR

      And, and he was able to, you know, in a moment of calm and, and beauty and [laughs] it was, it was very sweet and, and it felt, that was a definite proud moment.

  13. 40:26 – 48:15

    Hardest parts + Hamilton’s meteoric rise: protecting connection through big seasons

    1. BE

      Okay, what, what about the hardest, the hardest thing about parenting for each of you?

    2. LJ

      I mean, balance is hard, especially right now. You know? Um, there's just, um... A- a- and in the l- in the grand scheme of things, m- my life is balanced because, um, you know, I w- I, I've learned to work with a certain amount of unemployment, a certain amount of free time. It's, I'm never not doing anything, but you know, there's times when my, my time is not accounted for for anybody except for myself, so in those times, I'm up with the kids and I'm, you know, "You sleep in, babe. I'll walk 'em," and I, you know, I'm cooking-

    3. BE

      Yeah

    4. LJ

      ... dinner, and you know, there's those... So I have, I can have that for months and months, and then I have a time where, you know, I'm exhausted in the morning 'cause I have a night job.

    5. BE

      Right.

    6. LJ

      And I, you know, I'm exhausted in the morning, and you know, um, they're gone during the day, and I'm leaving right when they're getting home, so that can, you know, that's hard for me in this season, remembering, um, that it's not always like this, you know? That's, that's tough for me right now.

    7. BE

      Yeah.

    8. NR

      [laughs] I laughed because this morning he woke up, um-

    9. BE

      [laughs]

    10. LJ

      So funny

    11. NR

      ... at 7:30. I, I wake up, or it was, it was 7:15 or something. I wake up at 6:20 because I try to wake up, like, 10 minutes-

    12. BE

      Yeah

    13. NR

      ... before the kids.

    14. LJ

      Which I did, like, two days ago.

    15. NR

      Yeah, you're, you're-

    16. LJ

      And I, like-

    17. NR

      This is no judgment. I know this

    18. LJ

      ... I know, but two days ago, I let you sleep in, right?

    19. NR

      You did.

    20. LJ

      So, like, I, I-

    21. NR

      You did, yeah

    22. LJ

      ... it felt like that. It felt like another one of those mornings.

    23. NR

      [laughs] This morning he, he woke up, came into the kitchen. We'd been up for a long time, and he was like, "I really thought I was waking up, I was gonna wake up and just let you sleep in for the morning," and [laughs] I was like-

    24. LJ

      Yeah, I thought for su- oh, for sure it's, you know, this is, it must be, like, 5:30.

    25. NR

      [laughs]

    26. LJ

      Just let me, let me, let me let Nic sleep in. They've been up for hours.

    27. NR

      [laughs]

    28. BE

      [laughs]

    29. LJ

      I didn't know what time it was.

    30. NR

      But yeah, I, I think the hardest, one of the hardest things-

  14. 48:15 – 55:20

    Rapid-fire reflections + the legacy they want to leave: kindness, repair, and ‘good inside’

    1. BE

      Oh, okay, you guys ready for a rapid fire-

    2. LJ

      Let's go

    3. BE

      ... round? I'm gonna go Nicolette and Leslie. Ready? First role you ever played.

    4. NR

      Um, soccer girl on Party of Five TV show. [laughs]

    5. BE

      Oh.

    6. NR

      It was a little... Yeah. [laughs]

    7. LJ

      Martin Luther King in nursery school for the, for the Black history pageant.

    8. BE

      One word to describe the feeling of performing.

    9. NR

      Oh, God, you said rapid fire. I'm so bad at fast things. Um-

    10. LJ

      Transcendent.

    11. BE

      Ooh.

    12. NR

      Emotional.

    13. BE

      Mm. Favorite show or movie you've seen recently.

    14. NR

      Ooh.

    15. LJ

      Sinners.

    16. BE

      Yeah.

    17. NR

      Sinners, yeah. Can I copy?

    18. LJ

      Yeah.

    19. BE

      Yeah.

    20. NR

      Yeah, I love it.

    21. BE

      You can join.

    22. NR

      I can join.

    23. BE

      Yeah.

    24. NR

      I saw it twice. I can join. Yeah.

    25. BE

      A, a parenting moment that knocked you off your chair. Funny, ridiculous-

    26. NR

      Oh

    27. BE

      ... offensive, just, "Oh my goodness, did that just happen?"

    28. LJ

      I remember, [laughs] this is one of my favorite stories. I remember Lucy was, um, she was, like, two, and, um, we had this, we had this very sweet housekeeper, um, uh, a couple times a week in LA that we loved, and she was, like, the most important person in the house. I used to tell, like, "Yo, I love all y'all-

    29. NR

      [laughs]

    30. LJ

      ... but, like, Maria is number one in this house."

Episode duration: 55:21

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