Dealing with Feelings: A Conversation With Dr. Marc Brackett

Dr. Becky Kennedy 0:00 Today, I'm talking with Dr. Marc Brackett. Marc is the founding director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence. He's the author of Permission to Feel, and he's the author of his brand-new book, Dealing with Feeling. Dr. Brackett has developed a framework that helps kids, parents, and educators build emotional literacy, skills for recognizing, naming, and working with emotions in ways that help us thrive and get in touch with our capability. I've known Marc for a while, and he is one of my favorite people to talk with, so you are really in for a treat. I think you'll think about emotions in a different way. You'll think about coping in a different way, and without a doubt, you'll end with practical strategies you can use today. I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Good Inside. We'll be back right after this. So happy to have you here today.

Dr. Marc Brackett 0:50 Thank you.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 0:51 So many things I wanna talk about, but let's just start with you and kind of what brings you to this work. So you spent your whole career basically studying emotions, right? And as parents, emotions are at the center of our lives. Parents' emotions, kids' emotions, emotions about in-laws. There's a lot of emotions. I just wanna know what really drew you to this work in the first place.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:12 Well, since we're talking with a parenting expert, um, I'll be frank, I just feel like my emotional life was kind of robbed from me as a kid. Um, I had terrible abuse in my childhood and a lot of bullying and just felt like there was no place to go with my feelings, so what did I do? I ate them. I cried them. I banged my head them. I did everything that you would call unhealthy-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:38 Mm

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:38 ... to deal with them.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:39 And just before we continue, 'cause I know that probably that led into so much research, and you really-

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:44 Yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:44 ... like took that and turned it into a whole journey. All those things you were naming, I just have to say, were incredibly adaptive things to figure out as a kid.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:53 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:53 Because emotions are... They're so powerful. You can't stop them, so if you don't have coping skills or you don't have support, you gotta, gotta do something.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:59 They gotta go somewhere.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 2:00 Yeah.

Dr. Marc Brackett 2:01 I mean, I, you know, I left people in a very like dark place with the opening, uh, but I am blessed also because I had an uncle who was my mother's brother. His name was Uncle Marvin, and he was a, a teacher by day and a band leader by night in the Catskill Mountains who happened to be writing a curriculum to teach kids about feelings, who happened to live with us one summer at the right time when I just shared what was happening and totally transformed my life.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 2:27 How old were you?

Dr. Marc Brackett 2:28 I was 11.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 2:29 He was with you the summer when you were 11.

Dr. Marc Brackett 2:30 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 2:32 Wow.

Dr. Marc Brackett 2:32 And it just, everything changed because he asked me the simple question that guides my work, which is, "How are you feeling?" No one asked me that question. I think people were afraid to ask me how I was feeling.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 2:45 Did that feel really scary or really amazing at the time, or both?

Dr. Marc Brackett 2:49 I think it felt relieving.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 2:50 Mm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 2:51 Because I was trapped, and this person actually cared and as I say, you know, gave me permission to feel.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 2:57 Mm-hmm. The next time we talk, we're gonna do a full episode just on that.

Dr. Marc Brackett 3:00 Okay.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 3:00 And we're like not gonna talk about your research or book at all, okay?

Dr. Marc Brackett 3:03 No worries.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 3:03 But I told you we would talk about those things today, and I keep my word. Um, so t- how did that shape a lot of your career, and then can you talk a little about the research you've done-

Dr. Marc Brackett 3:14 Yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 3:14 ... around that, too?

Dr. Marc Brackett 3:16 Well, you know, so Uncle Marvin kinda saved my life. Things got better for me. I still, you know, you know, things still were difficult.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 3:25 Yeah.

Dr. Marc Brackett 3:25 You know, I wasn't sure who I was and what I was gonna do with my life. Um, and then when I got to college, I, you know, majored in psychology, and I double majored in Spanish and criminal justice and had all these different interests. And then I was still like, "What am I gonna do with my life?" And then I was in therapy, and it was around 1994, '95.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 3:46 Mm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 3:47 And all of a sudden, this big book came out called Emotional Intelligence, and I was like, "This is my uncle." Like, this... It wasn't my uncle who wrote the book. It was Daniel Goleman. But, um, I devoured that book because it just reminded me of all my experiences with my uncle. And he was a journalist, but I saw these two names that were like the theorist-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 4:06 Mm

Dr. Marc Brackett 4:06 ... the, the theoreticians, and I called them both up. And I said, "I think I wanna get my PhD and study with you." Uh, the long story short on that one, because you, you have a lot of parents who want their kids to go to great colleges, um, I got rejected from Yale [laughs] , th- basically, uh, the-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 4:23 Home of your research, yeah.

Dr. Marc Brackett 4:24 Yeah, exactly.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 4:25 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 4:26 And, um, I didn't have the test scores and the grade point averages to get in or like the pedigree and the experience. But, um, I went to the University of New Hampshire and then got my job at Yale later. Uh, the joke, by the way, just as a quick aside, was, uh, at my tenure party, uh, the president of Yale, who was the person who rejected me as his student, he's like, you know, "And you've done just amazing work, and we're so proud of you." I'm like, "I wanna remind you that you rejected me." [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 4:50 100%.

Dr. Marc Brackett 4:51 But I think that's an important piece, too-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 4:53 Yeah

Dr. Marc Brackett 4:53 ... in terms of emotion regulation, which is my research. You know, not every, not everything happens when you want it to happen. And in my research, what I find is that if you don't have the strategies to deal with those feelings, oftentimes your dreams don't come true.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 5:08 And those feelings, if we just even use your story as context, I don't know, disappointment-

Dr. Marc Brackett 5:13 Disappointment, anxiety-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 5:15 Yep

Dr. Marc Brackett 5:15 ... frustration, overwhelm-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 5:16 Embarrassment-

Dr. Marc Brackett 5:17 ... fear

Dr. Becky Kennedy 5:17 ... for some people, right? Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 5:19 Shame.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 5:20 Shame. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 5:20 You know, um, yeah, they're all there. And I think that's one thing that's really interesting for me because I was not the, um-- I didn't come from a family that was very into education. And so, um, and I have two brothers, and we all have doctorates, so we're always like... We were together last weekend, and we-- Every time we get together, we're always like, "How did we end up all becoming doctors?" [laughs] And, um, but you know, I study and I work with people who all have perfect SAT scores. They all have amazing grade point averages. They all play instruments I never heard of. They all have traveled to countries I didn't know were ever on the map. All to get into this place.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 6:03 Yeah.

Dr. Marc Brackett 6:03 You know, and, uh, and the assumption I had when I was a young professor was, "Everyone's gonna be successful because gosh, look at that, look at the credentials." And now after 23 years, I've seen otherwise.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 6:15 Uh, you know, I don't know if this will take off, us off on a tangent. It'll be like a side quest.

Dr. Marc Brackett 6:19 [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 6:19 We'll come back to the main quest. Um, but I, I have three kids, and one of my kids especially, uh, just things come really easily. Like I, I... Someone told me this term, like, he's like a life natural, like he's been here before, right?

Dr. Marc Brackett 6:32 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 6:33 And people are surprised when I say that that's the kid I worry the most about. [laughs]

Dr. Marc Brackett 6:38 Sure.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 6:38 Versus another one of my kids had major speech delays, like, had to work so hard. Things definitely don't come as easily, and I think about the grittiness and resilience-

Dr. Marc Brackett 6:49 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 6:50 ... and, and also how much that child has to build self-worth inside out-

Dr. Marc Brackett 6:54 Yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 6:54 ... because there's no opportunity to build it based on all of the accolades, right? Um, and I just wonder if that's related to what you're talking about.

Dr. Marc Brackett 7:02 Well, what you're reminding me of is the research which shows that, you know, for kids who are naturally kind of talented and-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 7:09 Yeah

Dr. Marc Brackett 7:10 ... skilled, we tend to praise them for that as opposed to praise them for their effort, and the research is pretty clear-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 7:18 Yeah

Dr. Marc Brackett 7:18 ... that, um, praising for, like, "Amazing job, you're so talented, you're so amazing. Gosh, you hit that ball," you know-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 7:24 Right

Dr. Marc Brackett 7:24 ... doesn't actually help them develop resilience and skills.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 7:27 Yeah.

Dr. Marc Brackett 7:27 And then later on, I, I say this also, it's funny you brought this up, because you would assume that a lot of my students would have a growth mindset. They don't.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 7:36 Hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 7:37 They only want the A. I always joke, I teach this course on emotional intelligence, and I, I have, like, you know, all these different experiences that I want them to have. I want them to learn the skills and practice the skills, and they're like, "Well, what do I need to get the A on the test?"

Dr. Becky Kennedy 7:51 Yep.

Dr. Marc Brackett 7:51 Like, "I want to memorize the correlation coefficient between..." You know, I'm like, "I don't remember the correlation coefficient." [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 7:56 Right.

Dr. Marc Brackett 7:56 It's my own research. [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 7:57 Seriously. Yeah.

Dr. Marc Brackett 7:58 Like, that's not what this is about.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 8:00 Yeah.

Dr. Marc Brackett 8:00 This is about, like, learning a set of skills that are gonna help you in life.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 8:03 Well, uh, you know, and you and I, I feel like whenever we talk, like, just go-

Dr. Marc Brackett 8:07 Yeah. Sorry

Dr. Becky Kennedy 8:07 ... off each other all day long.

Dr. Marc Brackett 8:08 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 8:08 This is gonna be a 19-hour podcast.

Dr. Marc Brackett 8:10 [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 8:10 Um, listeners, it will not. Just stay with us. Um, but, uh, one of the things I always think about is we can't develop skills for emotions we don't allow ourselves to have.

Dr. Marc Brackett 8:23 Correct.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 8:23 Right? And we also just can't develop skills to manage emotions that we don't have. So if we think about if getting rejected when you applied to college, if, and it wasn't for you, but if that is your first experience with disappointment ever because you are so kind of, quote, "Naturally talented"-

Dr. Marc Brackett 8:39 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 8:39 ... or maybe life has been made, you know, smoother for you, whatever it was-

Dr. Marc Brackett 8:43 Correct

Dr. Becky Kennedy 8:43 ... why would you have coping skills as an 18-year-old that are any different than, I don't know, a six-month-old? You wouldn't.

Dr. Marc Brackett 8:50 You wouldn't.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 8:50 You don't just-

Dr. Marc Brackett 8:50 And this is-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 8:51 Like, no one gifts them to you by age. [laughs]

Dr. Marc Brackett 8:54 Well, in my argument, which is based on my research, is that, you know, we weren't born that way. There is no area of your brain called emotion regulation. It is 100% learned. 100% learned. And my research shows, and I cover this in my book, which is that I studied thousands of people during the pandemic and after the pandemic, 'cause I was really curious because I struggled a lot dealing with my own feelings during the pandemic. I mean, my mother-in-law moved in, it was, like, a whole crazy thing, and I, I failed a lot, and I was... I'd go to bed at night like, "But Marc, you're the director of the Center for Emotional Intelligence." [laughs] It's like, who cares? He's not very good at this right now. And I really took that to heart in terms of, like, here I am as a researcher and a expert, but I was not doing well at it. And so I started studying people, and what I found among tens of thousands of people, only 10% of people said they had any education in emotions or emotion regulation-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 9:51 Yeah

Dr. Marc Brackett 9:51 ... at home, and, like, 6 to 7% at school. So we have people who are, you know, running around without knowing or using these evidence-based skills.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 10:02 I, I think people, it's interesting, call them soft skills.

Dr. Marc Brackett 10:04 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 10:05 I was actually just talking to a university yesterday about kind of their education, um, curriculum, and we were talking about, like, reversing that, like how helpful it is. How, how helpful is it to have amazing mathematical skills if you have no frustration tolerance?

Dr. Marc Brackett 10:20 Exactly.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 10:21 N- not helpful. It's actually a precondition to use your cognitive skills. You and I, I know we, we see this similarly. Um, and so yeah, I just think it's a really powerful thing to think about when your kids especially are younger, the times when they don't get invited to that birthday party-

Dr. Marc Brackett 10:35 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 10:35 ... or don't make the soccer team. Um, or I always think about, you know, something that happened with one of my kids where they all got assigned in their grade kind of these special projects, and some of these projects are, like, amazing and very cool opportunities, and some of them frankly are just, like, I don't know, fairly mundane.

Dr. Marc Brackett 10:50 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 10:51 And there's also the factor of whether you're with your, like, crew of friends or whether-

Dr. Marc Brackett 10:54 Right

Dr. Becky Kennedy 10:54 ... you're with totally random kids. In the first year of these projects, my kid in that grade had no friends and got, I truly think, one of, like, the worst projects, right? And I did, and, and I do think about this, like, I had... I didn't say this to him.

Dr. Marc Brackett 11:06 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 11:06 But I had this, like, sick joy of like, okay, this is ac- like, this is where the stuff is made.

Dr. Marc Brackett 11:12 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 11:12 Like, this is it. Because when he's older, he's probably not gonna have special project week, but he's gonna be disappointed, he's gonna be left out, he's gonna have FOMO-

Dr. Marc Brackett 11:20 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 11:20 ... he's gonna not get what he wants, and if he's not building these skills now, well, the stakes are only higher then.

Dr. Marc Brackett 11:26 Agree, and it's developmental, as you know. And so what I needed, you know, in kindergarten was different what I need- than what I needed in middle school than high school than now. I mean, I'm 55.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 11:35 Yeah.

Dr. Marc Brackett 11:35 I run a center at a university. You know, the world's in a weird place right now.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 11:39 [laughs]

Dr. Marc Brackett 11:39 Everybody's activated. And so the regulation strategies that I have to apply in my life now are not the same ones that I needed when I was 5 or 10 or 15.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 11:47 Mm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 11:49 And I think that's the beauty of the work. It's also what makes people afraid of it. It's why I think people are so obsessed, uh, with the quick fix.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 11:55 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 11:56 You know, everyone's just like, "What's the one strategy to help me deal with my feelings?"

Dr. Becky Kennedy 11:58 [gasps]

Dr. Marc Brackett 11:58 I'm like, "I don't have the answer for that. I'm sorry."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 12:01 I, I get that all the time, too.

Dr. Marc Brackett 12:02 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 12:02 I have one kid tantruming, another kid's drawing with Sharpie on the wall, a kid screaming, "I hate you," what would you do?

Dr. Marc Brackett 12:06 [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 12:06 I was like, "I have no idea."

Dr. Marc Brackett 12:08 Right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 12:08 [laughs] I don't know. Stress-

Dr. Marc Brackett 12:09 Yeah, take a deep breath, and they, people think that's the answer for everything.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 12:12 Exactly. W- you talk about emotions as data.

Dr. Marc Brackett 12:16 Correct.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 12:17 So just, can you expand on that?

Dr. Marc Brackett 12:19 Emotions are signals. They tell us to approach or avoid. So I'm looking at your facial expression right now, I'm looking at your body language, I'm listening to the tone of your voice, and it's telling me, like, "Marc, you're welcome here," or, "Marc," like, "I'm not interested in you." I'm getting the former, just so you know. But, um, that's what emotions are for. They ensure our survival, uh, they help us to thrive in life.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 12:41 Yeah.

Dr. Marc Brackett 12:41 And I argue that emotions are information, and there are five reasons why every parent-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 12:47 Mm

Dr. Marc Brackett 12:47 ... every leader, every teacher should care. The first is that emotions drive attention. So for example, if you were bored with me right now, well, I would dislike you a lot, but, um, you know, it would just, it would be that there's something not going right. Just like something doesn't go right at home or in the classroom. And it's not a bad emotion, it just means that, like, what's being presented to me doesn't click and my brain has decided to go someplace else.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 13:12 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 13:13 The second is decision-making. So I have tons of research and others' research which shows that we think that we're like cold, cognitive creatures that we're like, "I made this choice because of this reason." I hate to tell you this, but, you know, uh, uh, for parents, like, when you've been really upset with your kid and you've been, like, at the end of your rope and you're really pissed, and then you say that thing that you regretted, how many of you think you were like, in that moment you're like, "I hate my kid right now and I'm gonna say something that's gonna be mean and cruel"? No. It's automatic, it comes out. And, um, if you were, you know, intellectual about it, you would be like, "Why would I be doing this?" It's not the way it works. The third is relationships. And so just think about it, you know, as I said, my facial expression, my body language all sends messages. The fourth is mental health. And the last one we spoke about already, which is about performance. If you don't have the skills to deal with your emotions, especially for people who are really creative, what I find in our research on creativity is that emotions fuel the creative process, but emotional intelligence and emotion regulation is what determines whether that process becomes a product.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 14:24 There's so many things I wanna double-click on.

Dr. Marc Brackett 14:26 [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 14:26 Uh, uh, but just this idea of emotions as data and information I think is very different from how a lot of people think about emotions, where there's, like, positive versus negative-

Dr. Marc Brackett 14:36 Mm, yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 14:36 ... right? Exactly. Uh, uh, which whenever I hear that, uh, it's just an unhelpful binary.

Dr. Marc Brackett 14:41 Doesn't feel good.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 14:41 Because I think about a CEO of a company and someone bringing them information that would make them change a decision.

Dr. Marc Brackett 14:48 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 14:49 And I don't know if anyone think that's, like, negative information. That's useful information, right? [laughs]

Dr. Marc Brackett 14:54 All emotions are information.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 14:56 Exactly. And some are more uncomfortable than others.

Dr. Marc Brackett 15:00 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 15:00 Just like when you're going one direction on a plane flight and a pilot gets new information, like there's a new light going off-

Dr. Marc Brackett 15:07 Yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 15:07 ... or weather pattern they have to change, that's inconvenient, but I don't think anyone in the air is thinking, "That's negative information, my pilot should ignore it."

Dr. Marc Brackett 15:15 Right, let's ignore that feeling.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 15:15 Yeah, exactly. [laughs]

Dr. Marc Brackett 15:16 [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 15:16 Let's just pay attention to the good stuff up here.

Dr. Marc Brackett 15:18 Like repress, deny, ignore. No.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 15:20 N- no way. And so I think that in and of itself is life-changing for people.

Dr. Marc Brackett 15:24 I agree.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 15:24 Like, there's no positive or negative feelings.

Dr. Marc Brackett 15:26 There is no-- We don't-- Emotions are data, information, as we said. And I think, you know, when it comes time to, um, regulate our emotions, I think oftentimes people think that the goal is to get rid of negative emotions. And I just wanna say very clearly that you can't get rid of your feelings. First, they don't, where are they gonna go? Like, it's not like, you know, they come out of your head.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 15:47 [laughs]

Dr. Marc Brackett 15:47 I always thought that, by the way. For years before I really became knowledgeable about science, I was like, "Someone's gonna go into my brain, they're gonna carve out that area of my amygdala and my hippocampus, and I'm not gonna feel that anxiety anymore." Haven't had that operation yet.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 16:00 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 16:01 Um, and I also learned very clearly that my anxiety has actually helped me get to where I'm at.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 16:09 Yeah.

Dr. Marc Brackett 16:09 Because I, I worry about the things that I care about.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 16:12 Yep.

Dr. Marc Brackett 16:13 And if I reframe it that way, anxiety's no longer a negative emotion. It actually is motivating.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 16:18 Yes. That's actually, so many different ways of explaining nervous feelings to my kids. They have really latched onto this idea of like, nervous means I care.

Dr. Marc Brackett 16:29 I love that.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 16:29 Right? And it, it then becomes this, like, empowering-

Dr. Marc Brackett 16:32 Exactly

Dr. Becky Kennedy 16:32 ... you know?

Dr. Marc Brackett 16:33 And-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 16:33 "Yeah, I do care about this test, so it makes sense that I'm nervous about it." [laughs]

Dr. Marc Brackett 16:36 Exactly. I think the rule that I've created, which is a simple rule to help people, is that if you have a particular emotion for a really long period of time, and it's intense, and your coping ability-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 16:49 Mm-hmm

Dr. Marc Brackett 16:49 ... you know, is, you're struggling with that, that's when you need to regulate. But for the most part, you know, I argue, and my research supports this, by the way, that the first strategy for healthy regulation is permission to feel.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 17:02 Yes.

Dr. Marc Brackett 17:03 It's saying, "You know what? Okay. Hi, anxiety. Welcome today." Like, that's just a different attitude about it.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 17:08 Yep.

Dr. Marc Brackett 17:08 It's a mindset shift-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 17:10 Yeah

Dr. Marc Brackett 17:10 ... as opposed to, "Oh my God, I'm anxious."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 17:11 Yes.

Dr. Marc Brackett 17:12 Just a l- do you think, just feel it, like, "Oh my God, I'm anxious," versus, "Hi, anxiety, welcome."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 17:17 Yeah. I- it is, and I find personifying it to be so useful. Like, there are, there are friends we have that are a little pesky. Like, we love them, but, like, they're a little annoying.

Dr. Marc Brackett 17:25 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 17:25 But we can't, can't make them... They're just at the dinner party. And, like, if you ignore them or try to make them go away, they usually get noisier.

Dr. Marc Brackett 17:31 Exactly.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 17:31 And they try to get our attention in more dramatic ways. Now, I have a question, 'cause what I've seen, and I'm curious what you've seen, uh, you know, from your research and also just from students, is there more of an inclination now than years ago to kind of, quote, "bring uncomfortable emotions to a zero"-

Dr. Marc Brackett 17:51 Yes

Dr. Becky Kennedy 17:51 ... than there used to be?

Dr. Marc Brackett 17:52 Yeah. I think that we, you know, have... I got into a place where people, uh, this, I was asked the other day about like, "What does it mean to be emotional?" And I said, "Like, just, like, throw that term out. It has no meaning. It's ridiculous." And, uh, and then people, I think, are so uncomfortable being uncomfortable-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 18:13 Yeah

Dr. Marc Brackett 18:13 ... that they'd rather either suppress or deny, or people just wanna figure out a way, like, "What do you need? What do you need right now?" None of that is helpful. Um, and that's why I really feel strongly about teaching people buckets of strategies to deal with-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 18:28 Yeah

Dr. Marc Brackett 18:28 ... their emotions, and Permission to Feel is one bucket. But believe it or not, as you probably know, because we talked about what we were having for lunch earlier, um, and I just say this because what you eat and how well you sleep and the physical activity you get are really highly correlated with your ability to regulate.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 18:47 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 18:48 With parents, what I find is that in the mornings they say, "I'm trying to be my best self, but I just can't. I'm just, like, irritable and I'm, you know, my... I set a goal to be my best self and as a mom, and then I fail at the first thing in the morning." And I say, "Well, how much sleep did you get?" "Oh, I had a terrible night's sleep." "Oh, so your best self is possible, but you're not thinking about what's behind it-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 19:08 Mm-hmm

Dr. Marc Brackett 19:09 ... that's getting in the way."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 19:10 Yeah.

Dr. Marc Brackett 19:11 And the point I think of all this is that people are trying to get rid of their feelings as opposed to use their feelings to achieve their goals.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 19:19 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 19:20 And that, the work I really, um, what I strive to help people understand is that the goal of emotion regulation is not to control your feelings, it's to learn how to use all of your emotions wisely to achieve a goal.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 19:35 I think that's exactly right, and I think a good example is, like, I notice I'm really frustrated with my kids, I'm snapping. And instead of the spiral of, like, "I'm a monster. I'm a horrible parent," or, you know, "Other people would find this easier than I do," like, okay, I'm frustrated. Like, what's going on for me? Um, have I-

Dr. Marc Brackett 19:50 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 19:50 ... done anything for myself on the weekend? [laughs] You know?

Dr. Marc Brackett 19:53 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 19:53 And then that information, that frustration could actually help me if I can recognize it. Permission to feel frustrated.

Dr. Marc Brackett 19:59 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 20:00 That's happening. Okay, maybe I should carve out, I'm making this up, 45 minutes for myself or ask my partner to do more-

Dr. Marc Brackett 20:07 Yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 20:07 ... right? It would give me that information if I listen to it.

Dr. Marc Brackett 20:09 One thing I wanted to, I was thinking about-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 20:11 Mm-hmm

Dr. Marc Brackett 20:12 ... coming here today, and given, you know, the people that you reach, and kind of there's a con- there's a big controversy right now out there, and it's one that's driving me crazy, which is that being self-aware is self-indulgent.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 20:25 Mm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 20:26 And people are arguing, like, against my work, saying things like, "You know, you're causing kids to be so reflective that it's causing them to ruminate and become depressed even, and creating more mental illness." And I just wanna, I have to talk about that with you for a moment-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 20:40 Please, let's do it

Dr. Marc Brackett 20:40 ... because it's driving me crazy.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 20:42 Yeah.

Dr. Marc Brackett 20:42 Because people think that doing the work that we do in schools or with families is about talking about feelings all day long. Like, none of us wanna talk about our feelings [laughs] all day long.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 20:52 No.

Dr. Marc Brackett 20:52 It's not even appropriate.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 20:53 No.

Dr. Marc Brackett 20:54 You know, there's a point where it's like, no, we're at school, we're doing work. Yes, I want to... You can check in in the morning to see how you're feeling. Do you need a strategy to help you get through the morning? And then maybe at the end of the day a couple times, just like you as a parent. You wake up, you're gonna meet with me to do this podcast, then you're gonna check in, like, "Am I in a good mood? Am I in a bad mood?" Like, what's, you know, am I in the right place for this interview?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 21:13 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 21:14 If not, what's my strategy for getting to the right place?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 21:16 Yep.

Dr. Marc Brackett 21:17 But do you see how, like, that takes 20 seconds?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 21:20 Yes.

Dr. Marc Brackett 21:20 It's not this, like, prolonged, you know, bathing in your feelings. I just want people to understand-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 21:26 We have to clear that up. [laughs]

Dr. Marc Brackett 21:27 We have to clear it up, that this is about self-awareness as a pathway to creating the life that you need and want.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 21:36 Yeah.

Dr. Marc Brackett 21:37 And, um, and it's not about indulgence.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 21:40 So a couple things for further-

Dr. Marc Brackett 21:41 Yes

Dr. Becky Kennedy 21:42 ... defense of Marc Brackett.

Dr. Marc Brackett 21:43 [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 21:43 You know, I'm a big Marc Brackett-

Dr. Marc Brackett 21:43 Not me, just the field

Dr. Becky Kennedy 21:45 ... fan, fan. Um, okay. So I think there are extremes, and what often happens when we have one extreme and we reject it is people immediately go to the other extremes.

Dr. Marc Brackett 21:55 Correct.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 21:55 They're rarely the right answer, th- right? The, the right answer is usually something more nuanced in the middle, and it is becoming increasingly hard to hold multiplicity and nuance, right? Which probably relates to this kind of-

Dr. Marc Brackett 22:05 Yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 22:06 ... claim, you know, self-awareness is self-indulgence. I think we used to have a world of kind of kids' feelings, who cares? Who cares?

Dr. Marc Brackett 22:14 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 22:15 Get your act together. Move on.

Dr. Marc Brackett 22:17 Get over it.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 22:17 Kids' feelings don't matter. And I do think, not your work, there's been a misunderstanding and an overcorrection to the other extreme.

Dr. Marc Brackett 22:27 Yes.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 22:27 Where one extreme is kids' feelings don't matter, the other extreme is kids' feelings dictate reality or dictate what the whole family does. So now we've gone from feelings not matter to feelings overpowering everything else. Th- they're both unhelpful extremes.

Dr. Marc Brackett 22:44 Exactly.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 22:44 And I think what you're saying, which is my perspective too, teaching kids how to manage their feelings is in the service of making them more capable.

Dr. Marc Brackett 22:52 Correct. [laughs] I mean, you can't get always, you can't always get what you want, and-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 22:56 Exactly

Dr. Marc Brackett 22:57 ... when you're a kid or when you're an adult.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 22:59 Yes.

Dr. Marc Brackett 22:59 And frustration tolerance is important. Delayed gratification is important. All these things are important, but the, uh, but self-awareness is really important.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 23:09 Yes.

Dr. Marc Brackett 23:09 Because if you don't know how you're feeling, as a kid especially, like, I was a kid who was... I didn't have language. Nobody taught me the words. I was trapped with my feelings.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 23:19 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 23:19 And I didn't feel safe and comfortable talking about them, and as we know, especially for kids, they shouldn't worry alone.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 23:26 Yeah.

Dr. Marc Brackett 23:26 You should not worry alone.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 23:27 No.

Dr. Marc Brackett 23:28 And just because-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 23:29 Aloneness is the enemy, right?

Dr. Marc Brackett 23:29 Exactly. And so by sharing what you're feeling and being clear about it, because another big thing, just going back to this whole thing, is that people misunderstand behavior for emotion. So I come in, "I hate you, and I don't wanna go to school tomorrow." And all of a sudden the parent's triggered and they say things like, you know, "Who do you think you are talking to me that way?" You know, "Stop being so angry." When in my case, it was that the kid spit on me on the bus, and I'm feeling such deep shame and fear that I don't wanna go to school tomorrow. But I've only learned because daddy's a tough guy to yell, scream, and say, "I hate school, and I hate you." But then I get sent to my room because I'm b- engaging in bad behavior that, you know, in that instance my mother was not really skilled at co-regulating.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 24:14 Yeah.

Dr. Marc Brackett 24:14 And so the best thing to do is trigger, "Get out of my face." And there I was, you know, ruminating in my room about my fear of going to school tomorrow when no one knew how I felt. And if they really knew how I felt, they probably would have had a better intervention.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 24:28 Well-

Dr. Marc Brackett 24:29 [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 24:29 No, I'm, I'm so sorry that happened to you. I mean that.

Dr. Marc Brackett 24:32 Yeah. I mean-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 24:34 And thank you for sharing

Dr. Marc Brackett 24:34 ... I'm glad I sublimated it into a career of, uh, teaching this stuff.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 24:37 Me too, for everyone's sake, and sorry that happened in the first place.

Dr. Marc Brackett 24:42 Thank you.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 24:42 Um, and maybe actually, I think it would be helpful to take that example, 'cause it's so common, right? Which, let's just start with a word. Some version of, "I hate you," or even just, "I'm not going to school today."

Dr. Marc Brackett 24:52 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 24:53 Right? Okay. I think it might be helpful to outline, we could play around together-

Dr. Marc Brackett 24:56 Yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 24:56 ... a version of my kid's feelings don't matter, a version of my kid's feelings dictate reality and what the whole family or what they do.

Dr. Marc Brackett 25:03 I love that idea.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 25:03 And then kind of-

Dr. Marc Brackett 25:05 Let's do middle

Dr. Becky Kennedy 25:05 ... where do kids' feelings matter, and where can we help our kids access their capability?

Dr. Marc Brackett 25:09 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 25:10 Which, which extreme do you wanna take first?

Dr. Marc Brackett 25:12 Well, first I have to say-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 25:13 We'll take the other

Dr. Marc Brackett 25:13 ... the, the feelings always matter.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 25:15 Yes.

Dr. Marc Brackett 25:15 Okay.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 25:15 Feelings always matter.

Dr. Marc Brackett 25:16 The first example I think is sort of like the dismissing. Like, I, um... And what I found in my research, by the way, which is relevant to your community, is that the number one reason why parents don't ask their kids about their feelings is fear, and it's fear from multiple perspectives, but the primary one is that they are afraid of not knowing what to do.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 25:43 Yeah.

Dr. Marc Brackett 25:44 And so what do you do when you don't know what to do? You go to automatic, habitual, former ways that you learn things, which is my mother's way of like, "I'm going to my room, and you're going to your room, and we're not talking." That's the extreme, right? That's like, "Suck it up," you know?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 25:59 Yep.

Dr. Marc Brackett 25:59 "You're on your own, kiddo."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 26:00 Yep.

Dr. Marc Brackett 26:01 Doesn't usually help. [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 26:03 Right. And I think that's what a lot of kind of parents tell me, like, "Well, that's how my parents would have handled it. You know, growing up, 'You're going to school. Stop being ridiculous. You're being dramatic.'"

Dr. Marc Brackett 26:12 Right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 26:13 "You're gonna make me late for my job. I'm gonna get fired. We're gonna have no money." I don't know, just like-

Dr. Marc Brackett 26:16 Yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 26:16 ... some litany.

Dr. Marc Brackett 26:17 I mean, there's no relationship there. That's like-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 26:20 That's right. There's no relationship. And in some ways in that moment you also have no curiosity. Your, your curiosity is shut down.

Dr. Marc Brackett 26:27 Exactly.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 26:27 I have no curiosity about what's underneath. Maybe the problem isn't my kid saying they're not going to school. Maybe that's just represented, representative of some bigger problem they're actually struggling with.

Dr. Marc Brackett 26:38 Yeah, the symptom. The behavior, you know, there's, there's a symptom.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 26:40 Yes. So that's one extreme.

Dr. Marc Brackett 26:42 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 26:42 What's the other extreme that you also wanna make sure, you're like, "This is not what I'm talking about," right?

Dr. Marc Brackett 26:47 Oh my God, honey, what went wrong? Oh my G- I can't handle this. Oh my goodness. Let's, we have to, you know, let... My God, let's go, let's... You know, like that kind of-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 26:55 Yes

Dr. Marc Brackett 26:55 ... over dramatic reaction.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 26:57 Yes. And I think another version of that is, "Okay, let's sit on the couch. We're gonna cancel our plans. You're not going to school today. We're gonna talk about how you feel for the next eight hours instead." Right? And let-

Dr. Marc Brackett 27:07 Actually, you reminded me of something. I wrote an, I, I wrote this op-ed, and I decided not to submit it-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 27:12 Hmm

Dr. Marc Brackett 27:12 ... after the last election when a school here in New York City wrote a note saying that if the kids were not up to it, they didn't have to come to school.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 27:23 After the election, yeah.

Dr. Marc Brackett 27:24 Yeah. And I was like, "That is not emotional intelligence." [laughs] Like, you have to go to school, period. Y- I mean, you have to learn how to, life does not go always in the direction that you want it to go.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 27:34 And I think what collapses in that example, and in my example, is there's emotions mattering with the collapse of capability.

Dr. Marc Brackett 27:43 Correct.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 27:43 And I think as a parent, I always say, like, so much of dealing with kids' distress and anxiety is holding two things at once as a parent. I believe you, and I believe in you.

Dr. Marc Brackett 27:52 Yes.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 27:52 And i- and if we lose the I believe in you part-

Dr. Marc Brackett 27:56 100%

Dr. Becky Kennedy 27:57 ... it's, it's, it's really, it's also really overwhelming and feels dangerous for a kid. 'Cause they're like, "Well, I'm overwhelmed by this. My parent is [laughs] overwhelmed by this."

Dr. Marc Brackett 28:05 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 28:05 Like, "Where do I start and you end?"

Dr. Marc Brackett 28:07 But what you're doing there is you're instilling a growth mindset in, in terms of-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 28:11 That's right

Dr. Marc Brackett 28:11 ... and around emotion regulation in particular. So if your kid is, like, doing a climbing thing, and they're, "Oh, I think I'm gonna fall," you're like, "Honey, I'm watching you, and I understand that you're feeling afraid. I would be afraid, too. It's a little scary-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 28:22 Yeah

Dr. Marc Brackett 28:22 ... the first time, but I know you can do this. And so I'm gonna stand there. I'm gonna watch you. I'm even gonna coach you a little bit."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 28:28 Yep.

Dr. Marc Brackett 28:28 "But I just know that you're gonna be able to do this. I got, I gotcha."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 28:32 That second part, the and I know, I often visualize, you know, I need to see a more capable version of my kid than they can access themselves in that moment. 'Cause if I can't see that for them, like, they, they're not gonna get that from me.

Dr. Marc Brackett 28:46 Exactly.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 28:47 And so, okay, so what's in the middle? So we have a kid, "I'm not going to school today," right? So let's say we're like, "Okay, not doing the two extremes."

Dr. Marc Brackett 28:55 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 28:55 What's in the middle?

Dr. Marc Brackett 28:55 It's like, "Honey, tell me what happened. What's going on?"

Dr. Becky Kennedy 28:59 Yeah.

Dr. Marc Brackett 28:59 And it's not this four-hour conversation. It's really getting to know the experience. "You know, honey, I did notice that your facial expression was different today, so my hunch is that maybe something happened at school yesterday."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 29:10 Yeah.

Dr. Marc Brackett 29:10 "Can we chat about it?" And then you, you're in learning mode.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 29:14 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 29:15 But the learning mode is not to then say, "Well, like, you should, you know, suck it up," or like, "Oh my God." The learning mode is to help engage in problem-solving mode.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 29:23 Yeah.

Dr. Marc Brackett 29:23 I have something that, a, a new research finding that you're gonna love.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 29:27 Ooh.

Dr. Marc Brackett 29:27 So in my research when I've interviewed now, I'm gonna say 15,000 people, about their childhoods, about the people who created the conditions for them to kind of thrive, there are three characteristics. The first is non-judgmental. And as we know, people, I think most of us felt judged from the moment we came out of our mother's womb [laughs] into simply blunt. You know, like, "You're not smart enough. You're not, you're too dark. You're too light. You're too tall. You're too short. Your nose is too big, your nose..." I mean, whatever it is, it's like, it's just endlessly judged. And people will say, "I just want to be around someone who doesn't judge me. Please don't judge me." The second is the listening piece. "Can you just listen, please? Don't jump in all the time. Just listen." And the third is compassion. Now, importantly, what I want to say about this is that in the thousands of people that I've studied, no one ever says that the person who created the best conditions for them when they were young was smart or a problem solver. I find that incredible-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 30:34 Yeah

Dr. Marc Brackett 30:34 ... because I don't think people are looking for other people to fix them. I think people are looking for people to create the conditions for them to thrive and to ask them good questions so they can develop the critical thinking skills to then problem solve for themselves. And I don't think that we create the conditions for that as much as we should. And by the way, only, um, one-third of 15,000 people that I studied said they had someone like that when they were growing up.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 31:01 Hmm. I, I've-

Dr. Marc Brackett 31:02 [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 31:02 I don't know if you know, I'm, I'm unable to snap. We could talk about that later, but I've never wanted to snap in your time. [laughs]

Dr. Marc Brackett 31:06 [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 31:06 Really felt the urge to snap.

Dr. Marc Brackett 31:08 I'll do it for you.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 31:08 Yeah. I was just showing off, but okay. Um-

Dr. Marc Brackett 31:12 You can cope.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 31:13 Yeah, I can cope.

Dr. Marc Brackett 31:13 [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 31:13 I can. I can do hard things.

Dr. Marc Brackett 31:15 [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 31:15 Um, you know-

Dr. Marc Brackett 31:18 [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 31:18 ... no one's saying the adult that really helped the most is a smart or a problem solver and how, you know, we don't really wanna be fixed. The other part of that that I think so powerful for parents to remember is when you see your kid as being able to be capable, as being able to be resilient-

Dr. Marc Brackett 31:35 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 31:36 ... you set up conditions for them to access that in them.

Dr. Marc Brackett 31:39 Correct.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 31:39 Every time we say to our kids, like, "Let me do that for you," or, "I'll fix this," whether it's literally opening the Play-Doh jar or it's, "You weren't invited to that birthday party. I'm just gonna create a slumber party for you on that same date-

Dr. Marc Brackett 31:52 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 31:52 ... we're gonna invite more people and it's gonna be more fun," we're actually saying to our kids, "I don't think you are capable of coping with this"-

Dr. Marc Brackett 31:58 Exactly

Dr. Becky Kennedy 31:58 ... which is the mirror of th- they take in.

Dr. Marc Brackett 32:00 And so you're bringing up another piece of the research-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 32:02 Mm

Dr. Marc Brackett 32:02 ... which I just remembered, which is the second factor is time, that nobody has the patience to, like, let, let their kids figure it out. They just wanna get it done for them.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 32:11 I know.

Dr. Marc Brackett 32:11 It's like, "You know what, honey, just do that. Let, like, you know, move on. Like, just, just go say, go say you're sorry. Go apologize." And it's, you know, saying you're sorry doesn't really mean anything-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 32:21 [laughs]

Dr. Marc Brackett 32:21 ... as we know. And so just, like, we j- we just want it to be done so we can-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 32:25 Yes

Dr. Marc Brackett 32:25 ... go back to our phones, [laughs] or, you know, or do something else. And people don't have the patience to be present.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 32:33 You know, I, I've been talking about this a lot and it's resonating 'cause I think it goes to what you're saying, that the most underutilized parenting strategy in a hard moment is doing nothing.

Dr. Marc Brackett 32:42 Yes.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 32:42 [laughs] Right? And I tell people, "You should think about doing nothing with a capital D and a capital N, because then you won't think, I'm just doing nothing."

Dr. Marc Brackett 32:51 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 32:51 No, no, no. You are choosing doing nothing. It's like a very hard strategy to use in 2025. [laughs]

Dr. Marc Brackett 32:56 Yes.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 32:57 You wait and you trust. And the apology is such an interesting one because I have a kid who if in the moment you say like, "Are you gonna say sorry?" I mean, shut down completely.

Dr. Marc Brackett 33:06 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 33:06 But if you wait and trust and do nothing, the authentic apology that comes from him, uh, i- is the best apology I've ever heard from a kid.

Dr. Marc Brackett 33:14 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 33:15 But you have to, you actually have to trust yourself and your kid more than you trust that exact moment, which is hard.

Dr. Marc Brackett 33:23 It is.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 33:23 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 33:23 And I find another piece of this is the role modeling.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 33:27 Yeah.

Dr. Marc Brackett 33:28 Is, you know, I joke about this, but my mom had a phrase, this is a 1970s phrase probably, where whenever things would go wrong, she'd say, "Ah, I'm gonna have a breakdown." And I caught myself a couple years ago on a flight and I was, like, overwhelmed, and somebody saying, "You doing okay?" I'm like, "I'm having a breakdown." [laughs] And it's, you know, I pick that up.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 33:48 Yeah.

Dr. Marc Brackett 33:48 And so we're picking up the strategies, obviously-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 33:50 Yes

Dr. Marc Brackett 33:50 ... that our parents are, everyone is showing us.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 33:53 Yeah.

Dr. Marc Brackett 33:53 And so, you know, if you're not, and this is the, I think this is where the explicit versus the implicit learning happens, whereas if we're modeling healthy self-talk-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 34:04 Mm-hmm

Dr. Marc Brackett 34:05 ... if we're modeling healthy reaching out for support. You know, I give an example a lot with, 'cause, you know, in my research, by the way, and I, my hunch is that you got a lot of moms who listen, we gotta get more dads on this. Um, my, my goal, you know, for this new journey with my book, Dealing with Feeling, is to get more dads involved, because I have found that, um, only 3% of people think of their father as the person who gave them permission to feel. 3%. That's a, that's a very... I mean, to me, it's an alarming statistic-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 34:38 Yeah

Dr. Marc Brackett 34:39 ... that no one sees their father as the person who gave them that permission to feel. And so the, um, the point of me telling you this is people think this is, like, such hard work to be a good role model. But imagine this, I'm Daddy, and I had a really rough day at work, like just a rough day at work. Like, I got into a fight with a colleague and I'm irritable, and I come home and you're there as my daughter, and you're like, "Daddy, I wanna play. Daddy, I wanna play." And Daddy is, like, not in the mood to play. And so what my father would have done would be like, you know, "Honey, get out of my face," you know, or, "Go to your room," or, "Go watch television," or, you know, "Go get a snack." But what if it looked a little different? What if it was, "Honey, I recognize you wanna play, and I just wanna let you know Daddy had a really rough day at work. Actually, what happened is I said something that was not kind to one of my friends at work, and I feel terrible about it. And I need a little bit of time to just think about what I'm gonna say to him tomorrow. And if it's okay with you, I wanna be with you, but now's not the best time. I just need a few minutes to just kinda settle and think about it, and then when I come back, uh, we'll go take that walk or we're gonna play that game." So what did I do there? A, um, Daddy has strong feelings. B, Daddy's okay sharing those feelings. C, Daddy's reflective. D, Daddy problem solves and thinks about, like, solutions. Um, E, Daddy sometimes needs a little space to, you know, reflect-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 36:04 Yeah

Dr. Marc Brackett 36:04 ... and think through things. All that happened in a matter of a minute.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 36:07 Yeah.

Dr. Marc Brackett 36:09 But people don't think that that's the right thing to do for some reason-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 36:12 Yeah

Dr. Marc Brackett 36:12 ... or they don't think that actually saying it out loud to their kid is actually teaching them.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 36:17 You know, I think there's also confusion. I'm not supposed to cry in front of my kids. I'm not supposed to put my emotions onto my kids. Yet putting your emotions onto your kid-

Dr. Marc Brackett 36:27 That's different

Dr. Becky Kennedy 36:27 ... ironically probably comes from not managing-

Dr. Marc Brackett 36:31 Exactly

Dr. Becky Kennedy 36:31 ... or verbalizing your emotions.

Dr. Marc Brackett 36:32 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 36:32 So they do kind of almost come out of your head, and they come out-

Dr. Marc Brackett 36:36 Totally

Dr. Becky Kennedy 36:36 ... onto other people. And you're really talking about- Regulating out loud

Dr. Marc Brackett 36:41 Exactly

Dr. Becky Kennedy 36:42 [laughs]

Dr. Marc Brackett 36:42 Actually, you reminded me of a, I've, you know, and I do so much public speaking that I get these- people come up to me, and so a lot of dads come up to me afterwards, they're like, "Dude, you're vulnerable," [laughs] you know? And I'm like, "Yeah." And but it took me-- You know, I was 49 by the time I was, like, public with my whole life story, so you know, it takes time for people. Don't worry. But you know, and I share a lot about the terrible bullying that I had. And this one dad came up to me, and he said, "You know, Marc, I could never share what you shared with us if it were me to my kid."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 37:13 Mm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 37:14 And I said, "Well, tell me why." And he said, "Well, my kid would think I was weak." And I said, "Can we just pause for a minute and just chat?" And I said, "Well, what if your kid was being bullied right now? How do you think that approach, you know, would help or not help your kid?" And then the guy started crying with me, and he's like, "Yeah, you know, it just, I just never really learned, you know, this vulnerability thing, this sharing, you know, my, what happened to me as a kid. I just never learned it, and I've been stuck with not expressing it for forty years or thirty years, and I just don't, I don't have the skill." And it goes back to, again, the skill.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 37:52 The skill, and the truth is, any time we do something new, and any time we do something new that's completely different than all the generations before us, it's going to actually feel scary because our body is doing something for the very first time.

Dr. Marc Brackett 38:06 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 38:06 It's unknown. It's going to be awkward. And so I, I, I think that's such an important piece of it. Okay, I'm gonna talk about the rough day I had and just name that and say, "I need space 'cause I'm feeling frustrated, and I need a little time." When your body starts, I don't know, having a racing heart at the thought of doing that, y- I feel like our brain tries to make sense of that-

Dr. Marc Brackett 38:24 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 38:24 ... by saying, "I shouldn't do that." But actually, your brain can make sense of it differently. I've never done this before. Of course my heart is racing. That's not a sign I'm doing something wrong. It's a sign I'm doing something new.

Dr. Marc Brackett 38:34 Yeah, and actually, now you're reminding me of another-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 38:35 [laughs]

Dr. Marc Brackett 38:36 ... area of research of mine, which is kind of studying this concept of becoming the best version of yourself. And so it's an exercise that I think it's very helpful for parents to do, which is just to take a moment and imagine how you wanna be seen and talked-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 38:53 Mm

Dr. Marc Brackett 38:53 ... about and experienced. So if I were to ask you, then, Dr. Becky-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 38:58 Mm

Dr. Marc Brackett 38:58 ... as a mom, think about the attributes of the mom that you want your kids to see, that you want your kids to experience.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 39:08 Present, connected, curious.

Dr. Marc Brackett 39:13 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 39:14 Same team.

Dr. Marc Brackett 39:15 Nice. So present, curious, connected, same team. And so in the moment when your kid is, like, getting under your skin, it's hard to show up as present, connected, et cetera. But what if tonight before you walk into your apartment, you take a deep breath and you say, "I've set a goal. I'm a mom who wants to be seen as connected, you know, as present, et cetera." And then kind of just visualize that as you walk through the door. Do you think that would-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 39:48 Yeah. I think you're talking about the essence of re-grounding ourselves in our values.

Dr. Marc Brackett 39:52 Exactly.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 39:53 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 39:53 And when we're, w- you know, with the world, when we're on social media, when we're running on the subways and we're coming home and we're hectic and we're thinking, "Oh my gosh, I have this work to do yet, and I gotta make dinner, and then I gotta put the kids to bed, and I gotta do this problem solving for tomorrow, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah," and then we get activated, those values and that version of ourself gets dismissed, and so it's a practice.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 40:14 Yes, it is.

Dr. Marc Brackett 40:15 And I have-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 40:15 Just like yoga.

Dr. Marc Brackett 40:16 Exactly.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 40:16 It never ends, right? Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 40:18 And I have a, you know, I do a lot of work here in the city as you do, and I have a, a friend who's a principal of a school downtown. And he takes the bus in from Brooklyn, and he drives by the, um, Empire, the, um, Statue of Liberty. And he, he uses that as his method.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 40:34 Yeah.

Dr. Marc Brackett 40:34 And he looks at the Statue of Liberty, and he reminds himself of the principal he wants to be.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 40:38 Mm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 40:39 You know, and then on the way home as the parent he wants to be.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 40:41 Love that.

Dr. Marc Brackett 40:41 Isn't that beautiful?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 40:42 Nothing like Lady Liberty to hold you accountable.

Dr. Marc Brackett 40:44 Love it.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 40:45 Never thought about Lady Liberty as my accountability buddy.

Dr. Marc Brackett 40:47 Just love having her.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 40:47 But I might have to change my commute. I love that. [laughs]

Dr. Marc Brackett 40:50 [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 40:50 If parents listening, you know, wanna take what you're talking about and make a couple small shifts or something that feels actionable, like, what are your, what are your top go-tos?

Dr. Marc Brackett 41:02 The top go-to is to just have a mindset that there's no such thing as a bad emotion.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 41:07 Mm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 41:08 That you know what? The feeling is a feeling. You could make it wanna go away, but it's there for a reason because emotions come unbidden. I think the second is, and this is a big one for me because I grew up and I still have, my automatic go-to is self-criticism, and I can only remember, um, being criticized. It's terrible. And I, I'm convinced that most of us have been gaslighted by people in our development, in our childhoods, and we just start believing it. It becomes a self-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 41:42 Mm-hmm

Dr. Marc Brackett 41:43 ... fulfilling prophecy. No one ever taught us to sift through the way other people were talking about us, and then it metastasizes, and it becomes your identity. And so I just want to encourage people to move from self-criticism or other criticism to self-compassion and other compassion. And that alone I think could make, you know, a huge difference.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 42:04 Yeah.

Dr. Marc Brackett 42:06 I'll give you one more.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 42:06 Great.

Dr. Marc Brackett 42:08 Um, I got a hundred, but I'll give you my top three for today.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 42:10 I love top threes.

Dr. Marc Brackett 42:11 My third one is, um, it might be surprising. It's to have an other orientation. I think that we have become such a me culture. I'm the, "I'm feeling this way, and it's my thing." And I had this with, you know, during the pandemic, my mother-in-law got stuck with us for a variety of reasons because of, um, you know, the pandemic. She, 'cause she's from Panama, and she couldn't go back. And it's like it ruined my routine. You know? Like, I like to have coffee alone in the morning. I don't wanna have coffee with my mother-in-law staring at me. And all I realized was after a s- month for me to realize is like I'm a narcissist basically. It's like you're in my house and I'm feeling this way and I want to be alone.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 42:51 There's your self-critical voice, Marc.

Dr. Marc Brackett 42:53 Yeah. You're right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 42:54 [laughs]

Dr. Marc Brackett 42:55 So thank you for the awareness. [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 42:57 [laughs]

Dr. Marc Brackett 42:57 And then, you know, I came down one morning and I realized I had no curiosity about my mother-in-law. Here was an 81-year-old woman who doesn't speak any English, who is stuck in America during a pandemic, whose like dog is like we're trying to figure out how to take care of her dog in Panama. And as soon as I stopped thinking about my feelings-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 43:15 Mm

Dr. Marc Brackett 43:15 ... and I thought about her feelings, everything changed. Actually, our relationship changed dramatically. And so even when we're feeling unpleasant emotions as parents or as even children can do this-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 43:27 Mm

Dr. Marc Brackett 43:27 ... if we take a minute and think about like who, who is suffering right now that I know. L- go into your phone and look for pictures of people. Oh my gosh, she just lost her husband or, you know, whatever it might be. This person's dog died. And just reach out to that person-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 43:41 Mm

Dr. Marc Brackett 43:41 ... and show your love and support for them. What happens magically is that by you helping them, you feel better yourself.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 43:49 Tell everyone where they can-

Dr. Marc Brackett 43:51 [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 43:51 ... find more from you. I know everyone-

Dr. Marc Brackett 43:52 Thank you

Dr. Becky Kennedy 43:52 ... will want that.

Dr. Marc Brackett 43:54 Well, my book is called Dealing with Feeling, which I'm very excited about. It's all evidence-based strategies to help everybody regulate their emotions more effectively. And the best place to learn more about me is just my website, which is my name, Marc Brackett, M-A-R-C B-R-A-C-K-E-T-T.com.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 44:11 Well, thank you. This hopefully is not the last time I have you right here.

Dr. Marc Brackett 44:15 Thank you.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 44:16 Um, and I love talking to you, and thank you for your very, very important work.

Dr. Marc Brackett 44:19 Thank you.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 44:20 I hope you enjoyed that conversation. I know I really did. Things that are top of mind for me are that there's no bad feelings. This idea of positive and negative emotions, let's throw that out and embrace what Dr. Brackett says, "Emotions are data, and all data is information, and we want to get information." As always, if you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review it, or if you're listening on Spotify or watching on YouTube, drop a comment. I read every single one. Let's end the way we always do. Place your feet on the ground and place a hand on your heart, and let's remind ourselves even as we struggle on the outside, we remain good inside. I'll see you soon. [outro music]