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Dealing with Feelings: A Conversation With Dr. Marc Brackett

Many of us grew up hearing, “Don’t cry, you’re fine” or “Stop overreacting!” Now, we want to raise our kids differently… but how? Dr. Becky sits down with Dr. Marc Brackett, founding director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence, to talk about his powerful personal story and research. They discuss understanding emotions as data, validating kids’ feelings without overindulging them, and building emotional literacy for the whole family. Get the Good Inside App by Dr. Becky: https://bit.ly/4fSxbzk Your Good Inside membership might be eligible for HSA/FSA reimbursement! To learn more about how to get your membership reimbursed, check out the link here: https://www.goodinside.com/fsa-hsa-eligibility/ Follow Dr. Becky on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drbeckyatgoodinside Sign up for our weekly email, Good Insider: https://www.goodinside.com/newsletter For a full transcript of the episode, go to [goodinside.com/podcast](http://goodinside.com/podcast). When it comes to school snacks, I’ve never been the “pack my kid a portable charcuterie board” kind of parent. If you are, more power to you. I’m more of a “grab-and-go” type - I want something simple, nutritious, and easy for my kids to reach for as we’re heading out the door. That’s why I like Chomps. Their full-size meat sticks have 10 grams of protein and zero sugar. They’re filling and made from real ingredients, so it’s one less thing to think about. And if you’ve ever opened your kid’s backpack to find a half-eaten snack from who-knows-when still wrapped up in there, Chomplings are great. They’re smaller sticks (the right size to toss in a lunchbox or that little front backpack pocket) with 4 grams of protein and zero sugar. Chomps are made of high-quality ingredients like 100% grass-fed beef, venison, and antibiotic-free turkey. They’re also free from the top nine allergens, so you don’t have to worry about sending them to school. Check out all the sizes and delicious flavors at Chomps.com/DRBECKY for 15% off plus free shipping There’s always a moment - maybe two weeks into the school year - where I stop and think: “Wait, wasn’t summer just five minutes ago?” Suddenly, we’re back in the rush of packing lunches, signing permission slips, and struggling to find a pair of matching socks every morning. That’s why I’ve started looking ahead to fall breaks now - before the long-weekend creeps up on me and feels less like a break, and more like being stuck at home for three days with three kids! My go-to for quick getaways? Booking an Airbnb. It’s a reset that still feels like home: games and toys for the kids, a big living room for family movie nights, and even bunk beds that kids claim are “way better than our beds at home.” Plus, do you ever think about how you can host your own home on Airbnb for another family to enjoy while *you’re* away? It’s a great way to earn a little extra income to put towards your own trip, school supplies, or next season’s cleats. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.com/host As parents, the mental load is real—to-do lists, doctor’s appointments, sports practices, work events, birthday parties…” (pause) Should I keep going? If your family is anything like mine, it can feel like there are a thousand things to remember and your brain is running on overdrive. Well, what if I told you there's a way to bring a little more calm and clarity to your chaotic, always-changing family schedule? Meet Skylight Calendar. It’s a central, easy-to-see touchscreen with clear colors, so everyone in your family can stay in the loop. As someone obsessed with efficiency, it almost feels like magic how seamlessly it syncs with all of the calendars you're already using—Google Calendar, Apple Calendar, Outlook, and more. I truly see this tool as your partner in sharing the mental load with your kids AND partner. (No more, “Mommm, when’s my soccer game?” or “What time do I need to pick the kids up?”) And because life doesn't stop when you leave the house, Skylight offers a free companion app. You can add or update events, check off to-do lists, and stay in sync with your family no matter where you are. Another great feature: If you're not completely thrilled within 120 days, you can return it for a full refund. Ready to say goodbye to calendar chaos and hello to a more organized and connected family life? Right now, Skylight is offering our listeners $30 off their 15-inch Calendars. Just go to www.SkylightCal.com/BECKY. This offer expires December 31st of this year.

Dr. Becky Kennedyhost
Sep 16, 202545mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 3:16

    Marc Brackett’s origin story: childhood trauma, coping, and “permission to feel”

    1. BK

      Today, I'm talking with Dr. Marc Brackett. Marc is the founding director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence. He's the author of Permission to Feel, and he's the author of his brand-new book, Dealing with Feeling. Dr. Brackett has developed a framework that helps kids, parents, and educators build emotional literacy, skills for recognizing, naming, and working with emotions in ways that help us thrive and get in touch with our capability. I've known Marc for a while, and he is one of my favorite people to talk with, so you are really in for a treat. I think you'll think about emotions in a different way. You'll think about coping in a different way, and without a doubt, you'll end with practical strategies you can use today. I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Good Inside. We'll be back right after this. So happy to have you here today.

    2. MB

      Thank you.

    3. BK

      So many things I wanna talk about, but let's just start with you and kind of what brings you to this work. So you spent your whole career basically studying emotions, right? And as parents, emotions are at the center of our lives. Parents' emotions, kids' emotions, emotions about in-laws. There's a lot of emotions. I just wanna know what really drew you to this work in the first place.

    4. MB

      Well, since we're talking with a parenting expert, um, I'll be frank, I just feel like my emotional life was kind of robbed from me as a kid. Um, I had terrible abuse in my childhood and a lot of bullying and just felt like there was no place to go with my feelings, so what did I do? I ate them. I cried them. I banged my head them. I did everything that you would call unhealthy-

    5. BK

      Mm

    6. MB

      ... to deal with them.

    7. BK

      And just before we continue, 'cause I know that probably that led into so much research, and you really-

    8. MB

      Yeah

    9. BK

      ... like took that and turned it into a whole journey. All those things you were naming, I just have to say, were incredibly adaptive things to figure out as a kid.

    10. MB

      Yeah.

    11. BK

      Because emotions are... They're so powerful. You can't stop them, so if you don't have coping skills or you don't have support, you gotta, gotta do something.

    12. MB

      They gotta go somewhere.

    13. BK

      Yeah.

    14. MB

      I mean, I, you know, I left people in a very like dark place with the opening, uh, but I am blessed also because I had an uncle who was my mother's brother. His name was Uncle Marvin, and he was a, a teacher by day and a band leader by night in the Catskill Mountains who happened to be writing a curriculum to teach kids about feelings, who happened to live with us one summer at the right time when I just shared what was happening and totally transformed my life.

    15. BK

      How old were you?

    16. MB

      I was 11.

    17. BK

      He was with you the summer when you were 11.

    18. MB

      Yeah.

    19. BK

      Wow.

    20. MB

      And it just, everything changed because he asked me the simple question that guides my work, which is, "How are you feeling?" No one asked me that question. I think people were afraid to ask me how I was feeling.

    21. BK

      Did that feel really scary or really amazing at the time, or both?

    22. MB

      I think it felt relieving.

    23. BK

      Mm.

    24. MB

      Because I was trapped, and this person actually cared and as I say, you know, gave me permission to feel.

    25. BK

      Mm-hmm. The next time we talk, we're gonna do a full episode just on that.

    26. MB

      Okay.

    27. BK

      And we're like not gonna talk about your research or book at all, okay?

    28. MB

      No worries.

    29. BK

      But I told you we would talk about those things today, and I keep my word. Um, so t- how did that shape a lot of your career, and then can you talk a little about the research you've done-

    30. MB

      Yeah

  2. 3:16 – 6:15

    From Emotional Intelligence to Yale: setbacks, rejection, and regulation skills

    1. MB

      Well, you know, so Uncle Marvin kinda saved my life. Things got better for me. I still, you know, you know, things still were difficult.

    2. BK

      Yeah.

    3. MB

      You know, I wasn't sure who I was and what I was gonna do with my life. Um, and then when I got to college, I, you know, majored in psychology, and I double majored in Spanish and criminal justice and had all these different interests. And then I was still like, "What am I gonna do with my life?" And then I was in therapy, and it was around 1994, '95.

    4. BK

      Mm.

    5. MB

      And all of a sudden, this big book came out called Emotional Intelligence, and I was like, "This is my uncle." Like, this... It wasn't my uncle who wrote the book. It was Daniel Goleman. But, um, I devoured that book because it just reminded me of all my experiences with my uncle. And he was a journalist, but I saw these two names that were like the theorist-

    6. BK

      Mm

    7. MB

      ... the, the theoreticians, and I called them both up. And I said, "I think I wanna get my PhD and study with you." Uh, the long story short on that one, because you, you have a lot of parents who want their kids to go to great colleges, um, I got rejected from Yale [laughs] , th- basically, uh, the-

    8. BK

      Home of your research, yeah.

    9. MB

      Yeah, exactly.

    10. BK

      Mm-hmm.

    11. MB

      And, um, I didn't have the test scores and the grade point averages to get in or like the pedigree and the experience. But, um, I went to the University of New Hampshire and then got my job at Yale later. Uh, the joke, by the way, just as a quick aside, was, uh, at my tenure party, uh, the president of Yale, who was the person who rejected me as his student, he's like, you know, "And you've done just amazing work, and we're so proud of you." I'm like, "I wanna remind you that you rejected me." [laughs]

    12. BK

      100%.

    13. MB

      But I think that's an important piece, too-

    14. BK

      Yeah

    15. MB

      ... in terms of emotion regulation, which is my research. You know, not every, not everything happens when you want it to happen. And in my research, what I find is that if you don't have the strategies to deal with those feelings, oftentimes your dreams don't come true.

    16. BK

      And those feelings, if we just even use your story as context, I don't know, disappointment-

    17. MB

      Disappointment, anxiety-

    18. BK

      Yep

    19. MB

      ... frustration, overwhelm-

    20. BK

      Embarrassment-

    21. MB

      ... fear

    22. BK

      ... for some people, right? Mm-hmm.

    23. MB

      Shame.

    24. BK

      Shame. Mm-hmm.

    25. MB

      You know, um, yeah, they're all there. And I think that's one thing that's really interesting for me because I was not the, um-- I didn't come from a family that was very into education. And so, um, and I have two brothers, and we all have doctorates, so we're always like... We were together last weekend, and we-- Every time we get together, we're always like, "How did we end up all becoming doctors?" [laughs] And, um, but you know, I study and I work with people who all have perfect SAT scores. They all have amazing grade point averages. They all play instruments I never heard of. They all have traveled to countries I didn't know were ever on the map. All to get into this place.

    26. BK

      Yeah.

    27. MB

      You know, and, uh, and the assumption I had when I was a young professor was, "Everyone's gonna be successful because gosh, look at that, look at the credentials." And now after 23 years, I've seen otherwise.

  3. 6:15 – 8:10

    Why “natural talent” can undermine resilience: praise, grit, and growth mindset

    1. BK

      Uh, you know, I don't know if this will take off, us off on a tangent. It'll be like a side quest.

    2. MB

      [laughs]

    3. BK

      We'll come back to the main quest. Um, but I, I have three kids, and one of my kids especially, uh, just things come really easily. Like I, I... Someone told me this term, like, he's like a life natural, like he's been here before, right?

    4. MB

      Mm-hmm.

    5. BK

      And people are surprised when I say that that's the kid I worry the most about. [laughs]

    6. MB

      Sure.

    7. BK

      Versus another one of my kids had major speech delays, like, had to work so hard. Things definitely don't come as easily, and I think about the grittiness and resilience-

    8. MB

      Mm-hmm

    9. BK

      ... and, and also how much that child has to build self-worth inside out-

    10. MB

      Yeah

    11. BK

      ... because there's no opportunity to build it based on all of the accolades, right? Um, and I just wonder if that's related to what you're talking about.

    12. MB

      Well, what you're reminding me of is the research which shows that, you know, for kids who are naturally kind of talented and-

    13. BK

      Yeah

    14. MB

      ... skilled, we tend to praise them for that as opposed to praise them for their effort, and the research is pretty clear-

    15. BK

      Yeah

    16. MB

      ... that, um, praising for, like, "Amazing job, you're so talented, you're so amazing. Gosh, you hit that ball," you know-

    17. BK

      Right

    18. MB

      ... doesn't actually help them develop resilience and skills.

    19. BK

      Yeah.

    20. MB

      And then later on, I, I say this also, it's funny you brought this up, because you would assume that a lot of my students would have a growth mindset. They don't.

    21. BK

      Hmm.

    22. MB

      They only want the A. I always joke, I teach this course on emotional intelligence, and I, I have, like, you know, all these different experiences that I want them to have. I want them to learn the skills and practice the skills, and they're like, "Well, what do I need to get the A on the test?"

    23. BK

      Yep.

    24. MB

      Like, "I want to memorize the correlation coefficient between..." You know, I'm like, "I don't remember the correlation coefficient." [laughs]

    25. BK

      Right.

    26. MB

      It's my own research. [laughs]

    27. BK

      Seriously. Yeah.

    28. MB

      Like, that's not what this is about.

    29. BK

      Yeah.

    30. MB

      This is about, like, learning a set of skills that are gonna help you in life.

  4. 8:10 – 12:12

    Emotion regulation is learned (not built-in): pandemic findings and education gaps

    1. BK

      Um, listeners, it will not. Just stay with us. Um, but, uh, one of the things I always think about is we can't develop skills for emotions we don't allow ourselves to have.

    2. MB

      Correct.

    3. BK

      Right? And we also just can't develop skills to manage emotions that we don't have. So if we think about if getting rejected when you applied to college, if, and it wasn't for you, but if that is your first experience with disappointment ever because you are so kind of, quote, "Naturally talented"-

    4. MB

      Mm-hmm

    5. BK

      ... or maybe life has been made, you know, smoother for you, whatever it was-

    6. MB

      Correct

    7. BK

      ... why would you have coping skills as an 18-year-old that are any different than, I don't know, a six-month-old? You wouldn't.

    8. MB

      You wouldn't.

    9. BK

      You don't just-

    10. MB

      And this is-

    11. BK

      Like, no one gifts them to you by age. [laughs]

    12. MB

      Well, in my argument, which is based on my research, is that, you know, we weren't born that way. There is no area of your brain called emotion regulation. It is 100% learned. 100% learned. And my research shows, and I cover this in my book, which is that I studied thousands of people during the pandemic and after the pandemic, 'cause I was really curious because I struggled a lot dealing with my own feelings during the pandemic. I mean, my mother-in-law moved in, it was, like, a whole crazy thing, and I, I failed a lot, and I was... I'd go to bed at night like, "But Marc, you're the director of the Center for Emotional Intelligence." [laughs] It's like, who cares? He's not very good at this right now. And I really took that to heart in terms of, like, here I am as a researcher and a expert, but I was not doing well at it. And so I started studying people, and what I found among tens of thousands of people, only 10% of people said they had any education in emotions or emotion regulation-

    13. BK

      Yeah

    14. MB

      ... at home, and, like, 6 to 7% at school. So we have people who are, you know, running around without knowing or using these evidence-based skills.

    15. BK

      I, I think people, it's interesting, call them soft skills.

    16. MB

      Yeah.

    17. BK

      I was actually just talking to a university yesterday about kind of their education, um, curriculum, and we were talking about, like, reversing that, like how helpful it is. How, how helpful is it to have amazing mathematical skills if you have no frustration tolerance?

    18. MB

      Exactly.

    19. BK

      N- not helpful. It's actually a precondition to use your cognitive skills. You and I, I know we, we see this similarly. Um, and so yeah, I just think it's a really powerful thing to think about when your kids especially are younger, the times when they don't get invited to that birthday party-

    20. MB

      Mm-hmm

    21. BK

      ... or don't make the soccer team. Um, or I always think about, you know, something that happened with one of my kids where they all got assigned in their grade kind of these special projects, and some of these projects are, like, amazing and very cool opportunities, and some of them frankly are just, like, I don't know, fairly mundane.

    22. MB

      Mm-hmm.

    23. BK

      And there's also the factor of whether you're with your, like, crew of friends or whether-

    24. MB

      Right

    25. BK

      ... you're with totally random kids. In the first year of these projects, my kid in that grade had no friends and got, I truly think, one of, like, the worst projects, right? And I did, and, and I do think about this, like, I had... I didn't say this to him.

    26. MB

      Mm-hmm.

    27. BK

      But I had this, like, sick joy of like, okay, this is ac- like, this is where the stuff is made.

    28. MB

      Yeah.

    29. BK

      Like, this is it. Because when he's older, he's probably not gonna have special project week, but he's gonna be disappointed, he's gonna be left out, he's gonna have FOMO-

    30. MB

      Mm-hmm

  5. 12:12 – 14:26

    Emotions as data: the five reasons they matter (attention, decisions, relationships, health, performance)

    1. BK

      Exactly. W- you talk about emotions as data.

    2. MB

      Correct.

    3. BK

      So just, can you expand on that?

    4. MB

      Emotions are signals. They tell us to approach or avoid. So I'm looking at your facial expression right now, I'm looking at your body language, I'm listening to the tone of your voice, and it's telling me, like, "Marc, you're welcome here," or, "Marc," like, "I'm not interested in you." I'm getting the former, just so you know. But, um, that's what emotions are for. They ensure our survival, uh, they help us to thrive in life.

    5. BK

      Yeah.

    6. MB

      And I argue that emotions are information, and there are five reasons why every parent-

    7. BK

      Mm

    8. MB

      ... every leader, every teacher should care. The first is that emotions drive attention. So for example, if you were bored with me right now, well, I would dislike you a lot, but, um, you know, it would just, it would be that there's something not going right. Just like something doesn't go right at home or in the classroom. And it's not a bad emotion, it just means that, like, what's being presented to me doesn't click and my brain has decided to go someplace else.

    9. BK

      Mm-hmm.

    10. MB

      The second is decision-making. So I have tons of research and others' research which shows that we think that we're like cold, cognitive creatures that we're like, "I made this choice because of this reason." I hate to tell you this, but, you know, uh, uh, for parents, like, when you've been really upset with your kid and you've been, like, at the end of your rope and you're really pissed, and then you say that thing that you regretted, how many of you think you were like, in that moment you're like, "I hate my kid right now and I'm gonna say something that's gonna be mean and cruel"? No. It's automatic, it comes out. And, um, if you were, you know, intellectual about it, you would be like, "Why would I be doing this?" It's not the way it works. The third is relationships. And so just think about it, you know, as I said, my facial expression, my body language all sends messages. The fourth is mental health. And the last one we spoke about already, which is about performance. If you don't have the skills to deal with your emotions, especially for people who are really creative, what I find in our research on creativity is that emotions fuel the creative process, but emotional intelligence and emotion regulation is what determines whether that process becomes a product.

    11. BK

      There's so many things I wanna double-click on.

  6. 14:26 – 15:26

    Drop the “positive vs. negative” binary: uncomfortable feelings are still useful information

    1. MB

      [laughs]

    2. BK

      Uh, uh, but just this idea of emotions as data and information I think is very different from how a lot of people think about emotions, where there's, like, positive versus negative-

    3. MB

      Mm, yeah

    4. BK

      ... right? Exactly. Uh, uh, which whenever I hear that, uh, it's just an unhelpful binary.

    5. MB

      Doesn't feel good.

    6. BK

      Because I think about a CEO of a company and someone bringing them information that would make them change a decision.

    7. MB

      Mm-hmm.

    8. BK

      And I don't know if anyone think that's, like, negative information. That's useful information, right? [laughs]

    9. MB

      All emotions are information.

    10. BK

      Exactly. And some are more uncomfortable than others.

    11. MB

      Yeah.

    12. BK

      Just like when you're going one direction on a plane flight and a pilot gets new information, like there's a new light going off-

    13. MB

      Yeah

    14. BK

      ... or weather pattern they have to change, that's inconvenient, but I don't think anyone in the air is thinking, "That's negative information, my pilot should ignore it."

    15. MB

      Right, let's ignore that feeling.

    16. BK

      Yeah, exactly. [laughs]

    17. MB

      [laughs]

    18. BK

      Let's just pay attention to the good stuff up here.

    19. MB

      Like repress, deny, ignore. No.

    20. BK

      N- no way. And so I think that in and of itself is life-changing for people.

    21. MB

      I agree.

    22. BK

      Like, there's no positive or negative feelings.

  7. 15:26 – 17:31

    Permission to feel—and when regulation is needed: anxiety as caring, welcoming emotions

    1. MB

      There is no-- We don't-- Emotions are data, information, as we said. And I think, you know, when it comes time to, um, regulate our emotions, I think oftentimes people think that the goal is to get rid of negative emotions. And I just wanna say very clearly that you can't get rid of your feelings. First, they don't, where are they gonna go? Like, it's not like, you know, they come out of your head.

    2. BK

      [laughs]

    3. MB

      I always thought that, by the way. For years before I really became knowledgeable about science, I was like, "Someone's gonna go into my brain, they're gonna carve out that area of my amygdala and my hippocampus, and I'm not gonna feel that anxiety anymore." Haven't had that operation yet.

    4. BK

      Mm-hmm.

    5. MB

      Um, and I also learned very clearly that my anxiety has actually helped me get to where I'm at.

    6. BK

      Yeah.

    7. MB

      Because I, I worry about the things that I care about.

    8. BK

      Yep.

    9. MB

      And if I reframe it that way, anxiety's no longer a negative emotion. It actually is motivating.

    10. BK

      Yes. That's actually, so many different ways of explaining nervous feelings to my kids. They have really latched onto this idea of like, nervous means I care.

    11. MB

      I love that.

    12. BK

      Right? And it, it then becomes this, like, empowering-

    13. MB

      Exactly

    14. BK

      ... you know?

    15. MB

      And-

    16. BK

      "Yeah, I do care about this test, so it makes sense that I'm nervous about it." [laughs]

    17. MB

      Exactly. I think the rule that I've created, which is a simple rule to help people, is that if you have a particular emotion for a really long period of time, and it's intense, and your coping ability-

    18. BK

      Mm-hmm

    19. MB

      ... you know, is, you're struggling with that, that's when you need to regulate. But for the most part, you know, I argue, and my research supports this, by the way, that the first strategy for healthy regulation is permission to feel.

    20. BK

      Yes.

    21. MB

      It's saying, "You know what? Okay. Hi, anxiety. Welcome today." Like, that's just a different attitude about it.

    22. BK

      Yep.

    23. MB

      It's a mindset shift-

    24. BK

      Yeah

    25. MB

      ... as opposed to, "Oh my God, I'm anxious."

    26. BK

      Yes.

    27. MB

      Just a l- do you think, just feel it, like, "Oh my God, I'm anxious," versus, "Hi, anxiety, welcome."

    28. BK

      Yeah. I- it is, and I find personifying it to be so useful. Like, there are, there are friends we have that are a little pesky. Like, we love them, but, like, they're a little annoying.

    29. MB

      Yeah.

    30. BK

      But we can't, can't make them... They're just at the dinner party. And, like, if you ignore them or try to make them go away, they usually get noisier.

  8. 17:31 – 20:09

    The “quick fix” trap: buckets of strategies, plus sleep/food/movement foundations

    1. MB

      Exactly.

    2. BK

      And they try to get our attention in more dramatic ways. Now, I have a question, 'cause what I've seen, and I'm curious what you've seen, uh, you know, from your research and also just from students, is there more of an inclination now than years ago to kind of, quote, "bring uncomfortable emotions to a zero"-

    3. MB

      Yes

    4. BK

      ... than there used to be?

    5. MB

      Yeah. I think that we, you know, have... I got into a place where people, uh, this, I was asked the other day about like, "What does it mean to be emotional?" And I said, "Like, just, like, throw that term out. It has no meaning. It's ridiculous." And, uh, and then people, I think, are so uncomfortable being uncomfortable-

    6. BK

      Yeah

    7. MB

      ... that they'd rather either suppress or deny, or people just wanna figure out a way, like, "What do you need? What do you need right now?" None of that is helpful. Um, and that's why I really feel strongly about teaching people buckets of strategies to deal with-

    8. BK

      Yeah

    9. MB

      ... their emotions, and Permission to Feel is one bucket. But believe it or not, as you probably know, because we talked about what we were having for lunch earlier, um, and I just say this because what you eat and how well you sleep and the physical activity you get are really highly correlated with your ability to regulate.

    10. BK

      Mm-hmm.

    11. MB

      With parents, what I find is that in the mornings they say, "I'm trying to be my best self, but I just can't. I'm just, like, irritable and I'm, you know, my... I set a goal to be my best self and as a mom, and then I fail at the first thing in the morning." And I say, "Well, how much sleep did you get?" "Oh, I had a terrible night's sleep." "Oh, so your best self is possible, but you're not thinking about what's behind it-

    12. BK

      Mm-hmm

    13. MB

      ... that's getting in the way."

    14. BK

      Yeah.

    15. MB

      And the point I think of all this is that people are trying to get rid of their feelings as opposed to use their feelings to achieve their goals.

    16. BK

      Mm-hmm.

    17. MB

      And that, the work I really, um, what I strive to help people understand is that the goal of emotion regulation is not to control your feelings, it's to learn how to use all of your emotions wisely to achieve a goal.

    18. BK

      I think that's exactly right, and I think a good example is, like, I notice I'm really frustrated with my kids, I'm snapping. And instead of the spiral of, like, "I'm a monster. I'm a horrible parent," or, you know, "Other people would find this easier than I do," like, okay, I'm frustrated. Like, what's going on for me? Um, have I-

    19. MB

      Mm-hmm

    20. BK

      ... done anything for myself on the weekend? [laughs] You know?

    21. MB

      Yeah.

    22. BK

      And then that information, that frustration could actually help me if I can recognize it. Permission to feel frustrated.

    23. MB

      Mm-hmm.

    24. BK

      That's happening. Okay, maybe I should carve out, I'm making this up, 45 minutes for myself or ask my partner to do more-

    25. MB

      Yeah

    26. BK

      ... right? It would give me that information if I listen to it.

  9. 20:09 – 24:42

    Is self-awareness self-indulgent? Correcting the misunderstanding about ‘talking about feelings all day’

    1. MB

      One thing I wanted to, I was thinking about-

    2. BK

      Mm-hmm

    3. MB

      ... coming here today, and given, you know, the people that you reach, and kind of there's a con- there's a big controversy right now out there, and it's one that's driving me crazy, which is that being self-aware is self-indulgent.

    4. BK

      Mm.

    5. MB

      And people are arguing, like, against my work, saying things like, "You know, you're causing kids to be so reflective that it's causing them to ruminate and become depressed even, and creating more mental illness." And I just wanna, I have to talk about that with you for a moment-

    6. BK

      Please, let's do it

    7. MB

      ... because it's driving me crazy.

    8. BK

      Yeah.

    9. MB

      Because people think that doing the work that we do in schools or with families is about talking about feelings all day long. Like, none of us wanna talk about our feelings [laughs] all day long.

    10. BK

      No.

    11. MB

      It's not even appropriate.

    12. BK

      No.

    13. MB

      You know, there's a point where it's like, no, we're at school, we're doing work. Yes, I want to... You can check in in the morning to see how you're feeling. Do you need a strategy to help you get through the morning? And then maybe at the end of the day a couple times, just like you as a parent. You wake up, you're gonna meet with me to do this podcast, then you're gonna check in, like, "Am I in a good mood? Am I in a bad mood?" Like, what's, you know, am I in the right place for this interview?

    14. BK

      Mm-hmm.

    15. MB

      If not, what's my strategy for getting to the right place?

    16. BK

      Yep.

    17. MB

      But do you see how, like, that takes 20 seconds?

    18. BK

      Yes.

    19. MB

      It's not this, like, prolonged, you know, bathing in your feelings. I just want people to understand-

    20. BK

      We have to clear that up. [laughs]

    21. MB

      We have to clear it up, that this is about self-awareness as a pathway to creating the life that you need and want.

    22. BK

      Yeah.

    23. MB

      And, um, and it's not about indulgence.

    24. BK

      So a couple things for further-

    25. MB

      Yes

    26. BK

      ... defense of Marc Brackett.

    27. MB

      [laughs]

    28. BK

      You know, I'm a big Marc Brackett-

    29. MB

      Not me, just the field

    30. BK

      ... fan, fan. Um, okay. So I think there are extremes, and what often happens when we have one extreme and we reject it is people immediately go to the other extremes.

  10. 24:42 – 28:55

    Two unhelpful extremes in parenting: dismissal vs. feelings dictating reality

    1. BK

      Um, and maybe actually, I think it would be helpful to take that example, 'cause it's so common, right? Which, let's just start with a word. Some version of, "I hate you," or even just, "I'm not going to school today."

    2. MB

      Mm-hmm.

    3. BK

      Right? Okay. I think it might be helpful to outline, we could play around together-

    4. MB

      Yeah

    5. BK

      ... a version of my kid's feelings don't matter, a version of my kid's feelings dictate reality and what the whole family or what they do.

    6. MB

      I love that idea.

    7. BK

      And then kind of-

    8. MB

      Let's do middle

    9. BK

      ... where do kids' feelings matter, and where can we help our kids access their capability?

    10. MB

      Yeah.

    11. BK

      Which, which extreme do you wanna take first?

    12. MB

      Well, first I have to say-

    13. BK

      We'll take the other

    14. MB

      ... the, the feelings always matter.

    15. BK

      Yes.

    16. MB

      Okay.

    17. BK

      Feelings always matter.

    18. MB

      The first example I think is sort of like the dismissing. Like, I, um... And what I found in my research, by the way, which is relevant to your community, is that the number one reason why parents don't ask their kids about their feelings is fear, and it's fear from multiple perspectives, but the primary one is that they are afraid of not knowing what to do.

    19. BK

      Yeah.

    20. MB

      And so what do you do when you don't know what to do? You go to automatic, habitual, former ways that you learn things, which is my mother's way of like, "I'm going to my room, and you're going to your room, and we're not talking." That's the extreme, right? That's like, "Suck it up," you know?

    21. BK

      Yep.

    22. MB

      "You're on your own, kiddo."

    23. BK

      Yep.

    24. MB

      Doesn't usually help. [laughs]

    25. BK

      Right. And I think that's what a lot of kind of parents tell me, like, "Well, that's how my parents would have handled it. You know, growing up, 'You're going to school. Stop being ridiculous. You're being dramatic.'"

    26. MB

      Right.

    27. BK

      "You're gonna make me late for my job. I'm gonna get fired. We're gonna have no money." I don't know, just like-

    28. MB

      Yeah

    29. BK

      ... some litany.

    30. MB

      I mean, there's no relationship there. That's like-

  11. 28:55 – 32:02

    The middle path: curiosity + problem-solving, and what truly supportive adults do

    1. MB

      It's like, "Honey, tell me what happened. What's going on?"

    2. BK

      Yeah.

    3. MB

      And it's not this four-hour conversation. It's really getting to know the experience. "You know, honey, I did notice that your facial expression was different today, so my hunch is that maybe something happened at school yesterday."

    4. BK

      Yeah.

    5. MB

      "Can we chat about it?" And then you, you're in learning mode.

    6. BK

      Mm-hmm.

    7. MB

      But the learning mode is not to then say, "Well, like, you should, you know, suck it up," or like, "Oh my God." The learning mode is to help engage in problem-solving mode.

    8. BK

      Yeah.

    9. MB

      I have something that, a, a new research finding that you're gonna love.

    10. BK

      Ooh.

    11. MB

      So in my research when I've interviewed now, I'm gonna say 15,000 people, about their childhoods, about the people who created the conditions for them to kind of thrive, there are three characteristics. The first is non-judgmental. And as we know, people, I think most of us felt judged from the moment we came out of our mother's womb [laughs] into simply blunt. You know, like, "You're not smart enough. You're not, you're too dark. You're too light. You're too tall. You're too short. Your nose is too big, your nose..." I mean, whatever it is, it's like, it's just endlessly judged. And people will say, "I just want to be around someone who doesn't judge me. Please don't judge me." The second is the listening piece. "Can you just listen, please? Don't jump in all the time. Just listen." And the third is compassion. Now, importantly, what I want to say about this is that in the thousands of people that I've studied, no one ever says that the person who created the best conditions for them when they were young was smart or a problem solver. I find that incredible-

    12. BK

      Yeah

    13. MB

      ... because I don't think people are looking for other people to fix them. I think people are looking for people to create the conditions for them to thrive and to ask them good questions so they can develop the critical thinking skills to then problem solve for themselves. And I don't think that we create the conditions for that as much as we should. And by the way, only, um, one-third of 15,000 people that I studied said they had someone like that when they were growing up.

    14. BK

      Hmm. I, I've-

    15. MB

      [laughs]

    16. BK

      I don't know if you know, I'm, I'm unable to snap. We could talk about that later, but I've never wanted to snap in your time. [laughs]

    17. MB

      [laughs]

    18. BK

      Really felt the urge to snap.

    19. MB

      I'll do it for you.

    20. BK

      Yeah. I was just showing off, but okay. Um-

    21. MB

      You can cope.

    22. BK

      Yeah, I can cope.

    23. MB

      [laughs]

    24. BK

      I can. I can do hard things.

    25. MB

      [laughs]

    26. BK

      Um, you know-

    27. MB

      [laughs]

    28. BK

      ... no one's saying the adult that really helped the most is a smart or a problem solver and how, you know, we don't really wanna be fixed. The other part of that that I think so powerful for parents to remember is when you see your kid as being able to be capable, as being able to be resilient-

    29. MB

      Mm-hmm

    30. BK

      ... you set up conditions for them to access that in them.

  12. 32:02 – 33:23

    Time, patience, and ‘Doing Nothing’—plus authentic apologies that require waiting

    1. MB

      ... which I just remembered, which is the second factor is time, that nobody has the patience to, like, let, let their kids figure it out. They just wanna get it done for them.

    2. BK

      I know.

    3. MB

      It's like, "You know what, honey, just do that. Let, like, you know, move on. Like, just, just go say, go say you're sorry. Go apologize." And it's, you know, saying you're sorry doesn't really mean anything-

    4. BK

      [laughs]

    5. MB

      ... as we know. And so just, like, we j- we just want it to be done so we can-

    6. BK

      Yes

    7. MB

      ... go back to our phones, [laughs] or, you know, or do something else. And people don't have the patience to be present.

    8. BK

      You know, I, I've been talking about this a lot and it's resonating 'cause I think it goes to what you're saying, that the most underutilized parenting strategy in a hard moment is doing nothing.

    9. MB

      Yes.

    10. BK

      [laughs] Right? And I tell people, "You should think about doing nothing with a capital D and a capital N, because then you won't think, I'm just doing nothing."

    11. MB

      Mm-hmm.

    12. BK

      No, no, no. You are choosing doing nothing. It's like a very hard strategy to use in 2025. [laughs]

    13. MB

      Yes.

    14. BK

      You wait and you trust. And the apology is such an interesting one because I have a kid who if in the moment you say like, "Are you gonna say sorry?" I mean, shut down completely.

    15. MB

      Mm-hmm.

    16. BK

      But if you wait and trust and do nothing, the authentic apology that comes from him, uh, i- is the best apology I've ever heard from a kid.

    17. MB

      Yeah.

    18. BK

      But you have to, you actually have to trust yourself and your kid more than you trust that exact moment, which is hard.

    19. MB

      It is.

    20. BK

      Mm-hmm.

  13. 33:23 – 38:34

    Role-modeling regulation out loud: fathers, vulnerability, and not dumping emotions on kids

    1. MB

      And I find another piece of this is the role modeling.

    2. BK

      Yeah.

    3. MB

      Is, you know, I joke about this, but my mom had a phrase, this is a 1970s phrase probably, where whenever things would go wrong, she'd say, "Ah, I'm gonna have a breakdown." And I caught myself a couple years ago on a flight and I was, like, overwhelmed, and somebody saying, "You doing okay?" I'm like, "I'm having a breakdown." [laughs] And it's, you know, I pick that up.

    4. BK

      Yeah.

    5. MB

      And so we're picking up the strategies, obviously-

    6. BK

      Yes

    7. MB

      ... that our parents are, everyone is showing us.

    8. BK

      Yeah.

    9. MB

      And so, you know, if you're not, and this is the, I think this is where the explicit versus the implicit learning happens, whereas if we're modeling healthy self-talk-

    10. BK

      Mm-hmm

    11. MB

      ... if we're modeling healthy reaching out for support. You know, I give an example a lot with, 'cause, you know, in my research, by the way, and I, my hunch is that you got a lot of moms who listen, we gotta get more dads on this. Um, my, my goal, you know, for this new journey with my book, Dealing with Feeling, is to get more dads involved, because I have found that, um, only 3% of people think of their father as the person who gave them permission to feel. 3%. That's a, that's a very... I mean, to me, it's an alarming statistic-

    12. BK

      Yeah

    13. MB

      ... that no one sees their father as the person who gave them that permission to feel. And so the, um, the point of me telling you this is people think this is, like, such hard work to be a good role model. But imagine this, I'm Daddy, and I had a really rough day at work, like just a rough day at work. Like, I got into a fight with a colleague and I'm irritable, and I come home and you're there as my daughter, and you're like, "Daddy, I wanna play. Daddy, I wanna play." And Daddy is, like, not in the mood to play. And so what my father would have done would be like, you know, "Honey, get out of my face," you know, or, "Go to your room," or, "Go watch television," or, you know, "Go get a snack." But what if it looked a little different? What if it was, "Honey, I recognize you wanna play, and I just wanna let you know Daddy had a really rough day at work. Actually, what happened is I said something that was not kind to one of my friends at work, and I feel terrible about it. And I need a little bit of time to just think about what I'm gonna say to him tomorrow. And if it's okay with you, I wanna be with you, but now's not the best time. I just need a few minutes to just kinda settle and think about it, and then when I come back, uh, we'll go take that walk or we're gonna play that game." So what did I do there? A, um, Daddy has strong feelings. B, Daddy's okay sharing those feelings. C, Daddy's reflective. D, Daddy problem solves and thinks about, like, solutions. Um, E, Daddy sometimes needs a little space to, you know, reflect-

    14. BK

      Yeah

    15. MB

      ... and think through things. All that happened in a matter of a minute.

    16. BK

      Yeah.

    17. MB

      But people don't think that that's the right thing to do for some reason-

    18. BK

      Yeah

    19. MB

      ... or they don't think that actually saying it out loud to their kid is actually teaching them.

    20. BK

      You know, I think there's also confusion. I'm not supposed to cry in front of my kids. I'm not supposed to put my emotions onto my kids. Yet putting your emotions onto your kid-

    21. MB

      That's different

    22. BK

      ... ironically probably comes from not managing-

    23. MB

      Exactly

    24. BK

      ... or verbalizing your emotions.

    25. MB

      Mm-hmm.

    26. BK

      So they do kind of almost come out of your head, and they come out-

    27. MB

      Totally

    28. BK

      ... onto other people. And you're really talking about- Regulating out loud

    29. MB

      Exactly

    30. BK

      [laughs]

  14. 38:34 – 45:30

    Values-based ‘best self’ practice and Marc’s top actionable takeaways

    1. MB

      Yeah, and actually, now you're reminding me of another-

    2. BK

      [laughs]

    3. MB

      ... area of research of mine, which is kind of studying this concept of becoming the best version of yourself. And so it's an exercise that I think it's very helpful for parents to do, which is just to take a moment and imagine how you wanna be seen and talked-

    4. BK

      Mm

    5. MB

      ... about and experienced. So if I were to ask you, then, Dr. Becky-

    6. BK

      Mm

    7. MB

      ... as a mom, think about the attributes of the mom that you want your kids to see, that you want your kids to experience.

    8. BK

      Present, connected, curious.

    9. MB

      Yeah.

    10. BK

      Same team.

    11. MB

      Nice. So present, curious, connected, same team. And so in the moment when your kid is, like, getting under your skin, it's hard to show up as present, connected, et cetera. But what if tonight before you walk into your apartment, you take a deep breath and you say, "I've set a goal. I'm a mom who wants to be seen as connected, you know, as present, et cetera." And then kind of just visualize that as you walk through the door. Do you think that would-

    12. BK

      Yeah. I think you're talking about the essence of re-grounding ourselves in our values.

    13. MB

      Exactly.

    14. BK

      Mm-hmm.

    15. MB

      And when we're, w- you know, with the world, when we're on social media, when we're running on the subways and we're coming home and we're hectic and we're thinking, "Oh my gosh, I have this work to do yet, and I gotta make dinner, and then I gotta put the kids to bed, and I gotta do this problem solving for tomorrow, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah," and then we get activated, those values and that version of ourself gets dismissed, and so it's a practice.

    16. BK

      Yes, it is.

    17. MB

      And I have-

    18. BK

      Just like yoga.

    19. MB

      Exactly.

    20. BK

      It never ends, right? Mm-hmm.

    21. MB

      And I have a, you know, I do a lot of work here in the city as you do, and I have a, a friend who's a principal of a school downtown. And he takes the bus in from Brooklyn, and he drives by the, um, Empire, the, um, Statue of Liberty. And he, he uses that as his method.

    22. BK

      Yeah.

    23. MB

      And he looks at the Statue of Liberty, and he reminds himself of the principal he wants to be.

    24. BK

      Mm.

    25. MB

      You know, and then on the way home as the parent he wants to be.

    26. BK

      Love that.

    27. MB

      Isn't that beautiful?

    28. BK

      Nothing like Lady Liberty to hold you accountable.

    29. MB

      Love it.

    30. BK

      Never thought about Lady Liberty as my accountability buddy.

Episode duration: 45:30

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