Good Inside with Dr. Becky“Gentle” Parents Still Set Boundaries With Destini Davis
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
40 min read · 8,487 words- 0:01 – 1:31
Good Inside Membership: expert-guided parenting support and community
- BEDr. Becky
Why is it so hard to find reliable answers to parenting questions? How is it in 2022 parents still search on Google for answers from strangers? Well, now there's a better way. Introducing the Good Inside Membership, an expert-guided, community-powered platform redefining modern parenting. In our library, you'll find hundreds of bite-sized videos, articles, scripts, and workshops tackling the trickiest parenting topics, and it doesn't stop here. We've created a private community guided by me, Dr. Becky, and coaches trained in the Good Inside Parenting method. Here you can ask questions, connect with other parents, or attend a live event on a topic that matters to you. This is the parenting handbook that doesn't exist. This is parenting advice at your fingertips, where you need it, when you need it the most. This is Good Inside Membership. Hi, I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Good Inside. I'm a clinical psychologist and mom of three on a mission to rethink the way we raise our children. I love translating deep thoughts about parenting into practical, actionable strategies that you can use in your home right away. One of my core beliefs is that we are all doing the best we can with the resources we have available to
- 1:31 – 3:05
Warmth vs. permissiveness: framing the episode and live Q&A format
- BEDr. Becky
us in that moment. So even as we struggle, and even as we are having a hard time on the outside, we remain good inside. Hi, Destini. I am so excited that you're here.
- DDDestini Davis
Hey, Dr. Becky. I'm super excited too. I'm glad we are finally making it happen.
- BEDr. Becky
Seriously. And I'm really excited about the format of this episode, which, uh, we just came up with, like, two minutes ago, because so many people, when I told them on my Instagram that we'd be talking about kind of the line, in a way, between warmth and connection and permissiveness, people just had so many questions, and I thought, "How cool would it be for us to talk a little bit about this topic and then welcome some of those people on and have them ask their question live, and we can give them live answers?" So I'm so glad you're game for that. And I would love to hear your thoughts at first about kind of this idea of, like, what is permissive parenting? Everyone hears that word and [laughs] thinks, "Oh, I don't wanna be that." And I'm sure you hear this a lot too from parents, where we talk about feelings, we talk about connection, and parents worry that, "Oh, no, is this going to kind of turn me into a permissive parent? Will my child kind of, quote, 'walk all over me?'" Things like that.
- 3:05 – 5:11
Destini’s path into permissiveness: fear, people-pleasing, and unmet parental needs
- DDDestini Davis
Yeah, absolutely. Um, and I do hear that a lot in my community especially, and that was my biggest challenge with transitioning into peaceful parenting is that I was very permissive. And for me, it's, it's all about needs and needs getting met. And as a permissive parent, my needs were 1,000% always on the back burner.
- BEDr. Becky
Hmm.
- DDDestini Davis
And it was very fear-based. I was so afraid of being my parents. I was so afraid of causing trauma. [laughs] And I was just so hyper-focused on creating this emotionally safe environment, but it was very much not safe for me-
- BEDr. Becky
Hmm
- DDDestini Davis
... at all. It got to the point where respect was an issue. I wasn't respecting myself, and so she wasn't respecting me, and that's when I really realized that that style of parenting did not necessarily work for me.
- BEDr. Becky
Interesting. So your journey in parenting and even your kind of dabbling in the permissive side, it came from some version of, "I, I really, I know the type of parent I don't wanna be."
- DDDestini Davis
Yeah.
- BEDr. Becky
Is that, is that right?
- DDDestini Davis
Yep.
- BEDr. Becky
Can you share more about that? 'Cause I think that applies to so many parents.
- DDDestini Davis
Yeah, absolutely. When I became a parent, I w- I already had that understanding of, like, this is a separate person, and, you know, I want her to have her own life and her own vibe and spirit and all that. I did not want to project, but I was still projecting because I was so focused on, "I don't wanna do this. I don't wanna be this kind of parent," and I never stopped to ask myself, "Well, what kind of parent do I actually want to be?" And so there was this-
- BEDr. Becky
Hmm
- DDDestini Davis
... long list of, "I'm not doing this." Um, but because I didn't focus on what I did wanna do, I kinda just didn't do anything. [laughs]
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah. So for those parents listening, and I'm sure so many of the parents, they really resonate with what you're saying if they grew up in a family where they felt controlled, where they feel like their voice was never heard, or they feel like, "Oh, feelings?"
- DDDestini Davis
Mm-hmm.
- BEDr. Becky
Like, yeah, "Feelings were not discussed in my family. They were not valued in my family. Kind of my way or the highway, get in line." And-
- DDDestini Davis
Yeah
- 5:11 – 8:42
Two forms of permissiveness: emotional disengagement vs. discipline/structure passivity
- BEDr. Becky
... I think a lot of people who were raised like that do know, "I, I don't wanna do that to my kid. Like, I wanna respect my child. My child's feelings and ideas and thoughts matter." And yet, I'm curious what you think about this, because I feel like permissive parenting, which I, I guess we should come up with a definition, but is kind of anything goes, my child is kind of in the driver's seat type of parenting.
- DDDestini Davis
Yeah, that free range. That's, I, and I used to subscribe to that so hard, that free range children idea.
- BEDr. Becky
There's something controlling about it too. I actually really think that, in that often a marker of a permissive style is the avoidance of your kids' distressing emotions. You agree?
- DDDestini Davis
I think that it can be. I know that that wasn't necessarily It for me
- BEDr. Becky
Hmm.
- DDDestini Davis
Um, but-
- BEDr. Becky
Mm-hmm
- DDDestini Davis
... I definitely have seen that in my community, and I think that there's a range of permissiveness where it's I'm being passive about your emotions, and then there's the I'm being passive about discipline. And so I fell into the I'm being passive about discipline area, and values, and boundaries. I was passive there. I was-
- BEDr. Becky
Mm
- DDDestini Davis
... completely hands-on, kick gloves, with the emotion side [laughs] of it, um, because we were grieving, and I was completely hands off with discipline and educating, and I was just like, "This is your life, and I'm just, I'm just here to support whatever you create, even though you're tiny." [laughs]
- BEDr. Becky
There's so many things I wanna ask, so maybe we'll, hopefully we'll get to a bunch of them. But that's really interesting. I haven't really thought that much about this, so I'm sure I'll have a lot more to think about after our conversation. But there can be multiple ways where we can be permissive, and I'm guessing we can be permissive in both, where one is a kind of I'm not really actively engaging in your emo- in your emotional life. Like, it's just kind of eh, I'm not, I'm not attending to it. But another one you're saying is being more permissive around discipline, meaning I'm letting you maybe make decisions as a child that really are out of line with what your role is in a family. I see you nodding.
- DDDestini Davis
Yeah.
- BEDr. Becky
So yeah, say more, say more about that, or how that even looked in your house.
- DDDestini Davis
Yeah, absolutely. So without that clarity, um, of the parent that I wanted to be, I was just letting her direct the sails. And I, I, I just, in my head I was like, "I have to be the parent that she needs."
- BEDr. Becky
Mm.
- DDDestini Davis
"I have to be the parent that she needs." Um, and so I was constantly letting her direct the discipline, and if she was motivated to do something, we did it. If she wasn't motivated to do something, we didn't do it. And it was, a lot of it was me grieving and me just being so hyper-focused on helping her through the emotional trauma, and a lot of great things came from that, but we got to a point where we were moving out of that grief, and we had not as much security in our environment. So we had the emotional security, but we had the emotional security, but we didn't necessarily have the security in our environment. And when I went to go implement the security in our environment, I got so much pushback, because it was like, "Whoa, I've created the environment. I don't have respect for you. Why are you telling me to do anything? You've never forced me, or you've never, you know, encouraged beyond my no ever, so what is going on?" And she was like, "Bye." [laughs]
- BEDr. Becky
Mm. Mm-hmm.
- DDDestini Davis
So we had done this for some years.
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah.
- DDDestini Davis
And so that was really, really difficult to transition.
- 8:42 – 13:00
Grief, capacity, and why boundaries felt impossible
- BEDr. Becky
And two things: You've said the word grief a bunch of times. Could, could you... Is that something that's comfortable to kind of expand on a little bit or give some more color to?
- DDDestini Davis
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, um, when Kennedy was about five years old, my mom passed, and she was a huge, huge influence, um, in my life and in Kennedy's life. I always joke and say that, like, my mom was both of our moms [laughs] because I had Kennedy, um, very young, and so that was a huge change for all of us emotionally, and I had to step in in ways that I knew that I wasn't necessarily prepared to step in, and so it created just a ton of insecurities.
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah.
- DDDestini Davis
And I was so hyper-focused on just the emotional piece of it.
- BEDr. Becky
And there's a way in which I think this all kind of comes together. First of all, thank you for sharing that. I'm sure feelings come up for you every time you talk about it, so I appreciate you letting us in. Sometimes when we are so overwhelmed by our distressing emotions, the idea of setting a boundary and being a sturdy leader-
- DDDestini Davis
Mm
- BEDr. Becky
... and having the energy to then tolerate our kid's feelings in reaction to that boundary, and having the energy to empathize with those feelings and validate those feelings, it's too much, right? [laughs] It's just like, yeah, it's not-
- DDDestini Davis
That's the nail on the head, yeah.
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah. And so as you kind of went through the range of your own feelings-
- DDDestini Davis
Mm-hmm
- BEDr. Becky
... something happened where you were able to show up to Kennedy differently?
- DDDestini Davis
Yeah. W- And I've never actually processed it in that way, but it was exactly that. 'Cause it wasn't like I wouldn't set boundaries or limits, I just didn't have the emotional capacity to be the bad guy. [laughs] I just didn't. I just was like, I can hel- I could help her with her emotions about everything, but I was carrying so much myself that the minute that that energy was towards me, I didn't know how to handle her anger towards me. I didn't know how to h- handle her frustration towards me. It was too much. It just felt like too much, where it was just like, you know what? It's fine. So in that way, I probably was being permissive with her emotions, any time that they were directed towards me.
- BEDr. Becky
And no, I'm just thinking that's how I feel like that's where that word controlling kind of comes up. And sometimes I feel like it's useful to talk about things in a l- in a slightly more hyperbolic way than you mean it, 'cause it just kind of can drive home a point. But there's a way in which we can all be permissive when we are not willing to, not willing, not able, too exhausted, whatever it is. But when we can't face our kid's distressing feelings about a boundary we set, essentially, "No, you can't do this thing," or, "No, this screen time is over," when we know our kid is gonna have a big reaction, and maybe, and I think th- you're really hitting the nail on the head here, especially when those feelings are about us, "Mom, I hate you. Dad, you're the worst," right? Then we can go into permissive parenting mode in a way-
- DDDestini Davis
Mm-hmm
- BEDr. Becky
... to control our kids at not-
- DDDestini Davis
Yeah
- BEDr. Becky
... having those feelings.
- DDDestini Davis
That they need. And that didn't, that never happened before. Like, w- I wouldn't even let it get there. I wouldn't even let it get there. And so now that she's nine, and I can handle it, and she has the space to do it, I'm getting all that. I'm getting the, "You're the worst," and, "I hate yous," and I, and I'm like Prepared, and I understand it now, and I can handle it now, but it doesn't mean that she didn't have those... She, those feelings wouldn't have come up back then. It's just I never, I was so intentional about making sure the environment would never let it happen. Um, I think one time she told, like, my aunt or something that she had those feelings towards me, and oh, my God, it was just like I went into people-pleasing mode again, and it was just like, "Okay, I gotta change the environment. I gotta, like, I gotta make sure that this isn't the case 'cause she needs that one person that she can like." And I was confusing attachment and security with liking me.
- BEDr. Becky
And, and actually, Destini, what, what come to mind for me when you said that is, you know, she needs that one person she likes, but in a way, when you were in a really vulnerable place, you probably needed one person who wasn't causing you additional distress, right? [laughs]
- DDDestini Davis
I did.
- BEDr. Becky
Right.
- DDDestini Davis
And I did not have that. [laughs]
- 13:00 – 16:50
Boundaries and feelings as “best friends”: the core gentle-and-firm principle
- BEDr. Becky
Right. And so, you know, I think there's a way to generalize this for everyone listening, even though I'm sure everyone hears their own stories in what we're talking about, that permissive parenting, right, is often marked by, "I, I don't feel like I have the emotional energy to tolerate my kid's feelings in reaction to my boundaries." And now we're talking about boundaries and feelings, which I feel like you and I love talking about boundaries and feelings, right? Like-
- DDDestini Davis
I know. [laughs] It's, it always comes back to it.
- BEDr. Becky
It does, and-
- DDDestini Davis
I try to move outside the box, but... [laughs]
- BEDr. Becky
But we're, we always get back. It's such a strong magnet because boundaries and feelings to me, it's like those b- those people, you're like, "Really, you're friends with each other? Like, I don't really get that." But, like, boundaries and feelings are like best friends that, like, other people don't understand, where we're often taught-
- DDDestini Davis
Yeah
- BEDr. Becky
... like they'd be in, in enemy groups, right? But they are best friends, and I actually think as we hear from parents who, this is my prediction, as we hear from parents who bring up situations and kind of probably all of them are gonna ask us, "Okay, well, how do I connect to my child, and where's the warmth, but I don't wanna be permissive?" My guess is we're gonna often come back to feelings with boundaries, like putting those things-
- DDDestini Davis
Yeah
- BEDr. Becky
... together because so many of us feel like they're in opposition. If I'm warm-
- DDDestini Davis
Mm-hmm
- BEDr. Becky
... there aren't really boundaries, and if I'm boundaried, I'm kind of cold. And I know-
- DDDestini Davis
Yeah
- BEDr. Becky
... you and I have talked so much about how, no, like, being warm and empathic, it, it goes hand in hand with being actually-
- DDDestini Davis
Mm-hmm
- BEDr. Becky
... really firm and really boundaried.
- DDDestini Davis
Yeah, yeah. But we, we don't often have a lot of examples or a lot of practice of doing them both at the same time, just in life in general. [laughs]
- BEDr. Becky
100%, and going back to our own childhoods, I think so many of us hear the word boundaries, and we're like, "Yeah, we, oh, I had a parent who set boundaries," but it was, it was harsh. It was cruel.
- DDDestini Davis
Yeah.
- BEDr. Becky
It, it was like we didn't exist almost, right? We w-
- DDDestini Davis
Hmm
- BEDr. Becky
... we didn't feel real.
- DDDestini Davis
What I've found, especially in my community and when I look back on my experience, is that I can't really put it in a box of whether my parents were, had too many boundaries or, like, no boundaries. It was just, like, back and forth, and it was inconsistent, and it was not secure. And I think that the basis was that we had boundaries, and we also had so much freedom, but neither was rooted in intention or values. It just was 1000% [laughs] based on the environment or what my parents were going through at the time. And so-
- BEDr. Becky
Hmm
- DDDestini Davis
... it created so much insecurity because I had no idea what the rules were, what the boundaries were, why they were even boundaries. Um, and I think that that, even when I switched from permissive to being more intentional, it wasn't till maybe, like, a year or two ago that I realized, "Wait, no, this has to actually be rooted in something." [laughs] I can't just, "Okay, now I'm setting boundaries." Like, why, and where are they coming from, and how do I explain that in to my child-
- BEDr. Becky
Hmm
- DDDestini Davis
... so that as she grows, they can be her boundaries, and I'm not constantly enforcing them, you know? So that was a really difficult transition as well.
- BEDr. Becky
Absolutely. So let's bring this to life. I know we are very similar in that we wanna make all these ideas around parenting, like, actionable and real and rooted in people's actual kind of situations in their homes. So I think the first person who's gonna join us, I believe, is Gina. So let's have Gina come on, and for everyone listening, this is nothing I've ever done on my podcast. I, I don't even know what Gina's about to ask us, truly. And so this is as if Destini and I were walking down the street and just ran into Gina, and Gina was like, "Oh, Destini, Becky, it's so nice to run into you. I had a question." And that's what we're gonna launch into. [instrumental music plays]
- 16:50 – 23:31
Caller Gina: bedtime hunger—flexibility without losing leadership
- SPSpeaker
Hi, I'm Gina. I have a four-year-old son who I would characterize as a deeply feeling kiddo. You know, we've been trying to do the division of responsibilities at mealtime where I don't pressure him to eat. I provide the food. He gets to decide how much and what, and trying to provide safe foods so he does get something he likes. Um, he tends to not eat a lot at dinner, and so I've always offered a bedtime snack. But lately, he's even, after the bedtime snack, as we go up to bed, as we get ready, and as we're just about to read our bedtime story, he says, "You know, Mommy, my tummy hurts. I think I'm hungry." And I have tried, you know, I'm, I've struggled with the boundary around this one because I believe that he is hungry 'cause I don't think he's eaten enough for his activity level, and I myself hate going to bed hungry. Um, I can't sleep if I'm hungry either. Uh, so I have, most of the times, given him the snack, and I try to make it a boring snack, just like a plain piece of bread or something to fill him up, but it's happening a lot, and I feel after, afterwards, I just feel really conflicted that I'm perhaps encouraging the behavior or not sticking to the boundary. I've tried at the first snack time to say, "Kitchen's closed. We're not doing this again." But in the end, I, I j- I kind of believe he's telling the truth, and I don't want him, to send him to bed hungry.
- BEDr. Becky
You know, food at bedtime is tricky, right? In that I just, I can't imagine any of us when we're much older and our kids are older are gonna say like, "Ah, you know what I just did so well as a parent? Like, I just let my kid have no food later at night. Like, that just felt so good." You know? [laughs] I don't know, right? I feel like it's one of those things that sometimes our fear of being, quote, "a permissive parent" gets in our way of giving ourselves permission to just, like, do something that feels right. And Gina, you said something that really resonated with me, which is like, [laughs] "I hate to go to bed hungry." And I would hate... I don't know, for me, I would hate if my husband was like, "Well, Becky, you already did have a bedtime snack-
- DDDestini Davis
Right
- BEDr. Becky
... so I think you can't eat." You know? Um, I'd be like, "You don't know my body," right? And, and at the same time, I know as a parent, and I know [laughs] Destini, it's the same, like, when, when it's time for your kid to go to bed, like, you're, you're done.
- DDDestini Davis
Yeah. 100%.
- BEDr. Becky
You're like, "Okay, I'm done." Like, I need that, like, two seconds that I get to myself. So here's where I think we can bring together this, like, okay, what's permissive? What is more boundaried? Where can we also honor our kids' feelings? I would come up with a snack that you feel good-
- DDDestini Davis
Mm-hmm
- BEDr. Becky
... about giving to your child while you're reading. I do this in my house-
- DDDestini Davis
Yeah
- BEDr. Becky
... where it is during reading time that my four-year-old often is like, "But I'm still hungry, Mom. I'm still hungry." And I'm just like, "That's not the power struggle I really want to get into," right? So he's allowed to have, we have no n- allergies in our house, right? He's allowed to have nuts, and he'll always say, "Can I have so many raisins?" Then I know, he'll have all the raisins and none of the nuts. And that doesn't feel like the same thing as just having a kind of boring snack that truly does fill you if you're hungry, but isn't so exciting that you're just gonna push for more and more.
- DDDestini Davis
Yeah.
- BEDr. Becky
And so we pre-negotiate that. I say, "Look, so while we're reading, you can have cashews, you can have almonds." And if he says to me, "I don't want that, I want..." You know, whatever it is. "I want this fruit snack instead," or, "I want chocolate," you know, I kind of know, again, I can hold that boundary and say, "That's not an option. I hear you, you're hungry, and only you know what's going on in your body, and I believe you. And here's a snack that I will offer." And I know in the back of my mind, I say to myself, "If he's really, really hungry, he's going to eat this. If this is really about hunger, that's gonna be it." But then I also might say something like this, Gina, I think this is also helpful as a parent, to say, "This is the amount of cashews you're getting. I know your belly might still have a little of that hunger after. This is all the food we're gonna have. So let's just get ready for that bowl to be empty, and then we can... Ah, let's take a deep breath." Something like that. And that sets me up to know I'm honoring my kid's feelings-
- DDDestini Davis
Mm-hmm
- BEDr. Becky
... while I'm also holding those boundaries. And again, I think when we marry the validation of feelings with holding boundaries, I, I think we feel really good about that. Destini, what would you, what would you add to that or shift about that?
- DDDestini Davis
You said something that really hit the nail on the head for me in terms of being able to set boundaries, um, and that was the pre-negotiation. And it takes out us being triggered in the moment. It takes out their frustration. Having a conversation at the beginning of it and you're expecting it, I feel like that makes such a huge difference in having that conversation before they get upset about the boundary or, you know, before you are at capacity and you find it difficult to hold the boundary, is so, so helpful in creating that routine and allowing them to ease into understanding what you're saying, as opposed to, "All right, it's 9:00, we've already done this. I'm just saying a clear no." So I absolutely love renegotia- es- negotiation, especially at transitions, at things that are, like, routines, like nighttime routines. I think that that would be super, super helpful, and I do that with the four-year-old especially. I have to think ahead for her, and I know that nighttime's hard. She's the same way. She's that nighttime negotiator. And I start that conversation before bedtime. I'm like, "Okay, we're taking our bath. I know you're gonna want a snack. These are the snacks that we can have." She has options, but outside of those options, that's where my, I guess the strength of my boundaries come. So it's a both. It's yes, we have flex- flexibility, and this is how big the flexibility bubble is. And we're [laughs] not going outside of it.
- BEDr. Becky
I, I love that. And I, I really do think that we, we forget to trust ourselves with that flexibility.
- DDDestini Davis
Mm-hmm.
- BEDr. Becky
Right? We, we sometimes... And just to trust, like, what would I want? Just because someone was flexible with me, that doesn't mean I would walk all over them.
- DDDestini Davis
Yeah.
- BEDr. Becky
Right? And it really, I think we often go there, and then it makes us be extra rigid. And that doesn't feel good to us and it doesn't feel good to our kids. So I, I love that idea of, like, this [laughs] is my flexibility bubble. And bubbles have flexibility, but also, I'm not gonna let it get to the point where I pop.
- DDDestini Davis
Yeah.
- BEDr. Becky
'Cause we know when it pops, that's when we yell.
- DDDestini Davis
Yeah.
- BEDr. Becky
Right? "Ah, just go to bed." Right?
- DDDestini Davis
Right.
- BEDr. Becky
And again, that means we're not showing up the way we wanna show up.
- DDDestini Davis
Yeah.
- BEDr. Becky
Thank you, Gina.
- DDDestini Davis
Thanks, Gina.
- SPSpeaker
Thanks, you guys. This was amazing. I can't believe you picked my question. [laughs]
- 23:31 – 30:23
Caller Claire: ‘rude’ greetings—modeling now, coaching later
- SPSpeaker
Hi, um, I'm Claire, mom to two boys, a three-year-old and a one-year-old, and I wanted to get your thoughts on when my three-year-old can come across as rude to, say, family members. For example, Grandpa visits and, um, he says a friendly hello, but my son doesn't even acknowledge him and might not even respond at all or responds in a very unfriendly way, like says, "No," or, "Go away." Um, I would love to get your thoughts on what would be the best way to deal with that
- DDDestini Davis
Oh, that's such a good question, Claire. Such a good question, and one that I resonate with a lot because my four-year-old, she goes back and forth between wanting to run away with strangers and completely not speaking to anybody. So I would say that when it comes to being permissive, I would've previously taken the stance of like, "Oh, it's fine," like, I'm not gonna, you know, I'm not gonna force her to speak or, you know, I'm not gonna tell her to say something nice. Um, but now where I'm at with it is that I understand what my values are, and so while I don't force, I'm very intentional about teaching, so I do wanna give you a practical piece of advice for that. When, when they're in the moment, like, the logic and all of that and trying to teach them and, "No, you need to do this," and, "You need to say hi," uh, may not resonate long term, but I'm always modeling, and for me, I'm triggered in the moment and I feel embarrassed, and so that's my stuff that I have to work through. However, I make a point to model to her how I would've preferred for her to handle that situation. So that's how I keep my boundary, and then at a time where neither of us are triggered, we're connected, we feel secure and rooted, that's when I go into teaching. So I personally would not force that, but because it's, it's a both thing, right? And I still have to, to respect her, and that doesn't feel rooted and aligned with what my values are. But I am still going to teach her and hold that boundary by modeling that behavior. I'll say thank you. I'll say hello. I'll ask if she wants to say hello. Um, and then when we are at bath time or, you know, when I'm really present with her and she feels open, I'll have that conversation, and I'll respond to whatever the moment was. So I'm really big on recapping, revisiting, um, and coming back to things at a time where it's safe and where it can be received. And then also recognizing that who they are right now isn't who they are, are going to always be, and our modeling and our connection and holding our boundaries through our discipline and our teaching are gonna win, and we gotta do whatever you gotta do in the moment to not completely feel that overwhelm of like, oh my God, and my family's gonna talk about me, and I'm embarrassed, you know, all of that. So it, it is a balance. You, you can do both, but resisting the urge to try to do both right in the moment is what I've been focusing on.
- BEDr. Becky
I love that so much, Destini, and I just kinda wanna, uh, tell me if this is right to almost summarize, like, model in the moment. Like, don't force. Replace forcing with modeling. So instead of, "Say hi. Your grandpa said hi. Say hi," right? Or I think another thing we do in the moment is-
- DDDestini Davis
Yeah
- BEDr. Becky
... "You're being so rude," right? So to model, and to instead say, I sometimes even say it from my kid's perspective, or I might say, "Oh, you know, right now she's having a moment. Right now she needs space. Oh, hi Grandpa."
- DDDestini Davis
Yeah
- BEDr. Becky
"How was your day?" And just let the modeling speak, and then you said, which I love, after, it's bath time, I'm actually connected to my child, I might say, "There was something about when Grandpa said hi to you that must have felt, I don't know, but kind of tricky. Uh, what happened?" Or if my child's, you know, younger and I feel like they wouldn't even know how to respond to that, I might say, "Ooh, let's play a game. I'm gonna say hi to you, and you're gonna think of three different ways-"
- DDDestini Davis
Mm
- BEDr. Becky
... "to say hi to me back," kind of from the perspective of my child was missing a skill, and if, I always think, like, if I was a basketball coach and my child couldn't make a layup, I can't imagine I'd yell at them. I'd go to the basketball court with them and teach them how to make a layup or get them closer, right? [laughs] And I think sometimes we forget that kind of coaching model with our kids. And I think that is one additional point I would make, Claire, which is that I'd encourage us all to be kind of just mindful of that word rude when we use it as describing what our kids are doing, 'cause I don't know about you, but whenever I describe, and of course I do this, too, "Oh, my kid's being so rude. That was so rude," there's no way that I don't want to kind of like give my kid a punishment or react harshly, right? It just puts you in harsh reactive mode. If I instead think something felt uncomfortable, and when they were uncomfortable, they didn't have the skill to manage that discomfort well enough to tolerate it and show up and say hi, then I, I actually like my kid when I think about it [laughs] that way, right? I'm like, oh, okay. And then I get to, well, what can I do outside the moment to teach my child? And so again, we get back to this kind of fear of being permissive, that if I don't come down harshly on my child, it's as if my child will believe that I approve of their behavior, and I think that's something that people taught us along the way, that if we don't punish our child or say, "This is not okay," it's equivalent to saying to our child, "Please do more of this-"
- DDDestini Davis
Yeah
- BEDr. Becky
... "rude behavior." It's not equivalent, and to trust that your kids don't think it's equivalent, and our kids, kind of just like us, sometimes do need that space, and you were saying it, too, Destini, and we need that space, which I think [laughs] we need that space, too, to see our kid through a more generous light, and then connect to them from that perspective of maybe they were missing a skill, rather than my kid is being rude.
- DDDestini Davis
Yes, absolutely. And understanding what you want as a parent, I think, Claire, I hope that you leave this understanding and knowing that it's okay that you don't like that. And that was where my permissiveness was lying, was, like, I was lying to myself, trying to be this gentle parent, and it's like, no, you're embarrassed. That's okay. [laughs] You, you have a desire for your child to be polite. You, you're not gonna force that, but I would not, I could not admit that, like, when I was being permissive. I could not admit that I had values that were rooted in just politeness or that I was embarrassed when my kids acted a certain way, and so I was not dealing with it, and my permissiveness had a lot to do with that. So I just wanted to honor you for being able to admit and, you know, say that this is something that you're struggling with and that you feel like, you know- ... is rooted in one of your values, 'cause that was a struggle for me for a while. [laughs]
- BEDr. Becky
Thank you, Claire.
- DDDestini Davis
Thank you, Claire.
- SPSpeaker
Thank you. Bye. [gentle music]
- 30:23 – 39:14
Caller Eric: nighttime creativity vs. sleep—collaborative boundaries and the ‘and’ mindset
- SPSpeaker
Hey, my name is Eric. I'm 38 years old. I have two daughters, eight years old and four years old. And what my question is, is during our bedtime routine, um, my, my four-year-old is, like, falls asleep in two minutes. Like, it's pretty quick. Like, she's down. We read a book. It's quick. My eight-year-old is, like, her brain comes alive, and she wants to do stuff, and sometimes it switches to anxiety side, like she gets worried about the next day, and sometimes it's like craft mode, and she's just like, "I just got ideas, Dad, that I gotta get out, and I wanna draw, and I, can I just, like, sit and do this?" But I also wanna hold that firm boundary with bedtime, being like, "Hey, it is getting late. Like, you need, it's time for you to go to sleep now." But since I'm an artist and designer, too, I connect with her having that time and her almost feeling like there's not enough hours in her day to do her creative thing. So I'll put the younger one down, and then I'll go check in, and she'll just be, like, made herself a little fort zone and is just, like, drawing pages and pages. I'm like, "Hey, honey, okay, we gotta wrap it up. We got five minutes." And she's like, "No, Dad, can I just have more time?" And I'm like, "Ugh, I just wanna get on the ground and draw with you, too," but I, you know, I, we need to get to bedtime. It's a school day tomorrow kind of thing. So for me as also a creative parent and seeing how badly she wants to do it, but then how it can play out the next day if she doesn't get enough sleep, and it kinda come, becomes, like, negative compounding interest with her [laughs] mood the next day. It's just like, ugh, you know, the ripple effect. Question is, you know, um, wanting to celebrate that desire with my daughter at, at that time, but also hold that boundary for bedtime.
- DDDestini Davis
Such a good question and such a fun age. I love that you guys have something that you can relate to each other with because at this age, relatability helps so [laughs] very much because she's getting to that phase where she's understanding the values, and she's starting to play with them in her own mind. So for me, what I would do, because I have a very similar child as well, she will stay up till 3:00 in the morning if I let her, is that we do what Dr. Becky was talking about earlier, which was pre-negotiating, and we have these conversations based on our values that I spent so much time rooting her in, and she gets them. And so we have this conversation where I say to her, "Look, you value creativity just like Mom. You value being able to do all these amazing things, and you value fun, but you also value your energy." And so we kind of create, like, this very scientist experiment kind of environment where we look at our day, we look at the data, and we're like, "Hey, you don't like how you feel when you don't get any sleep. So how can we live in the space of and? How can we live in the space of both? What's a reasonable time where you feel like, 'Ah, I got my creative energy out, and I'm still taking care of myself.'" And so we kind of break it down. My daughter's name is Kennedy, and so I, I like, I'm like, "Okay, so this Kennedy right now wants to play, right? What does tomorrow Kennedy gonna want? What is what tomorrow Kennedy or morning Kennedy gonna want, and how can we find space to do both?" And so at that age, they have a bit more critical thinking, and they are desperate for some autonomy on the rules and the values and stuff. So this is a great time to collaborate with her and create those boundaries. And then with the pre-negotiating, I'm, I clarify what my role is. "I am here to have your back when you're not having your back, okay? So that may mean that sometimes you're gonna be mad at me, sometimes you're gonna be frustrated, but we're setting a clear boundary, and I'm gonna be there to help you through that moment when we've moved beyond the flexibility. So you said, 'I can, I'll go to sleep at 11:00.' All right, I'm gonna be there at 11:00, and we're gonna start to transition into bedtime, and if that gets hard and that gets frustrating, I can handle your feelings. But I'm gonna enforce that because I want nighttime Kennedy and morning Kennedy to both get their needs met," okay? So I definitely would have a conversation and take it from that range where it's not you against her. It is me and you against this problem that we're solving. How do I get to be creative at night and still have energy and a great mood and all of that the next day?
- BEDr. Becky
I, I love that. And then the, the thing, the, the thing that came to mind for me is I think when we're considering a boundary and whether in that exact moment we hold it or we're more flexible, a key differentiator of kind of sturdy leadership versus something permissive is whether we're making that decision based on something that just feels right inside of us, or we're making the decision because we're worried about how our kids are going to feel and react. And everybody knows, kids and adults, everybody knows when someone's scared of their feelings. They sense it. Kids know when we're changing a boundary because we've changed our mind versus we're changing a boundary because we are just fearful of them being mad at us. And I think we don't, as often as possible, [laughs] we don't wanna make a decision from the point of view of our kids, you know, being mad at us. "Oh, I want to avoid that." But it sounds to me, Eric, like sometimes you're willing to be flexible. You know what it's like to have a burst of creativity, and I'm sure you know what it's like then to have that cut short. Um, and I think there's a way to bring all of this together, and I love, Destini, what you said about this kind of and situation. Ugh, there's this creative kid in you, and there's this morning kid who still has to go to school or whatever it is. I think another and we have to consider as parents is whenever we make the decision to be flexible about a boundary, I think we unconsciously believe our kid owes us complete and utter cooperation without pushback. And I know I do this. I'm like Wait, I just let you watch an extra TV show, so you're supposed to end that TV show, shutting off the TV, and coming to me and saying, "You are the greatest mother in the whole world. I love you, and I will put myself to sleep." Right? Uh, it doesn't work that way, right? So I think as a parent, you have to say to yourself, "I actually want to be flexible about this boundary, and let me anticipate my child is still going to push back when I hold the boundary again in 10 minutes." And I think that sets us up to be way sturdier because we're ready, and I think we can also give that message to our kid. "Okay, here's what I'm thinking. I'm thinking I also know what it's like to have a burst of energy, and it's so fun, and it's the worst feeling when we can't even start that project. So okay, let's jump out of our bedroom. We're gonna do this little project together. Here's the thing. We are going to stop it in five minutes or in 10 minutes," whatever you decide, "and I have a feeling it's still not going to feel like enough." I, I, I feel like preparing our kids for the not enough feeling is so important because there's many things in life, and we know this as adults, that never feel like enough, and time at night is often one of them. It's just not enough. And if we're searching for the enough feeling, and something inherently never feels like enough, well, you know, it's not, it's not a good equation for anyone. So even just to name that, yes, let's create together. Yes, let's put some of these ideas to paper, and let's just get our bodies ready for the fact that we're gonna have to pause, and still we're gonna wish there's more time. And in doing that, you're getting yourself ready for the protest. Your child's body is getting a little bit more ready, and the chance of that going relatively more smoothly I think is way higher. The last thing I'll add is I think that beyond just in this episode, but I, I do hear from so many parents that kids do push boundaries at night, right? And I, I just wanna normalize that, that it's, for most of us, the time when our bodies are slowed down enough from everything we're doing and accomplishing that other really important ideas and memories and stories and urges come up, right? And it's not a kid being manipulative. It's more just kind of this slowed down time where often our kids do show us more parts of themselves. And I know I have found kind of a lot of [laughs] relative peace in just telling myself, I told myself my kid was going to bed at a certain time. Like, I'm the only one who's keeping track of that. Like, nobody's watching me, saying, "Becky, your kid went to bed eight minutes after you said you were gonna put them to bed. Like, you're a horrible parent." Like, [laughs] no one's watching the clock, and maybe I allow myself that flexibility to hear that extra story, to do that extra art project, and I know giving myself that freedom has, like, helped me so much.
- SPSpeaker
Thank you so much. Take care, guys. Bye.
- 39:14 – 43:25
Closing reflections: permissiveness vs. self-trust, capacity, and holding space
- BEDr. Becky
Thank you. All right, Destini. Well, first of all, thank you so much for being game for this kind of fun new way of engaging with other thought leaders like you, with people who have questions. This was super fun. And I'm curious for you kind of, I know for me, whenever I listen to other people talk and share their stories, I have so many different ideas, and I, I know you kind of work the same way. W- any kind of final thoughts on, on this idea of permissive parenting or giving in or trusting ourselves? Uh, any, anything that's come up for you as we've kind of talked about it?
- DDDestini Davis
I think a lot of the questions made me think about the conversations that I have with myself in my head-
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah
- DDDestini Davis
... [laughs] while I'm with my kids, and so much of it isn't external. And I think that that's where the shift from permissive came for me, was that I was actually present with my values or present with the boundaries in the moment, where I was running before and just trying to be somewhere else, trying to shift the moment. Um, and so thinking about your capacity because we, we know the boundaries we're setting, and we know the limits that we're setting and just, okay, never mind whether this should be flexible or not or, you know, all in my head about whether or not I should hold this boundary. What capacity and what flexibility do I have right now in this moment? Like with the nighttime routine, do I have capacity for three minutes, you know, the three-minute flexibility, or do I not? And then being able to effectively communicate that with our children is so powerful and being able to hold space for whatever the feeling is. And holding space for that feeling could be, "I know. I love you. I'm so sorry. Good night." [laughs] Holding space for that feeling could be, "I'm sitting with you." Holding space for that feeling could be letting them talk it out and get it out, but not running from whatever that feeling is. And you said something that really stuck with me, and that was that it's okay. Like, it, it makes sense that they have that frustration, and we don't have to fix the boundary, but we don't have to fix the frustration either.
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah.
- DDDestini Davis
That was powerful.
- BEDr. Becky
I think that, you know, one of the things that came up for me as we heard different people or different parents kind of share stories is I went in to this kind of episode thinking about the line between being warm and connected and being permissive, but I'm thinking now about being permissive versus, like, trusting yourself as a parent, that there's trust involved in saying, "I do usually do bedtime at 8:30. Tonight I'm gonna allow myself to let my kid stay up later." That doesn't make me a permissive parent, especially if I know I'm not doing it just to please my child, but I'm doing it because my kid does have a great idea to do some art project, and I really remember how my parents' rigidity drove me crazy as a kid. And I trust myself if I do change bedtime tonight to not necessarily be locked into that new bedtime tomorrow, right? And I trust that I can have a kid who eats dinner even if they get an extra snack during, you know, the, uh, nighttime reading routine. And I guess, you know, what I, what I'd encourage everyone listening to really think about is that idea of, of trusting ourselves, that changing our mind doesn't mean that we are parents who can't stick to our guns, right? Like, changing our mind doesn't mean that, uh, you know, we waffle at everything. Changing our mind can be a really sturdy decision. It can be really respectful. It doesn't make you someone who's permissive. And to kind of vers- all of us to just, like, give ourselves that, that compassion and that, that trust I think is really, really powerful. So thank you for doing this with me. Thank you for being here, and tell everyone, Destini, how they can find you and get more of you.
- 43:25 – 45:24
Where to find Destini + show wrap-up and membership reminder
- DDDestini Davis
Yeah, the easiest way, all of my links are at destiniann.com. That's D-E-S-T-I-N-I, not a Y, D-E-S-T-I-N-I, A-N-N dot com, and all my socials and my community and all that are there.
- BEDr. Becky
Oh, Destini, that was so fun. Thank you. Thanks for listening to Good Inside. I love co-creating episodes with you based on the real-life tricky situations in your family. To share what's happening in your home, you can call 646-598-2543, or email a voice note to goodinsidepodcast@gmail.com. There are so many more strategies and tips I wanna share with you, and so many Good Inside parents I want you to meet. I'm beyond excited that we now have a way to connect and learn together. Head to goodinside.com to learn more about Good Inside Membership. I promise you, it's totally game-changing. And follow me on Instagram and Facebook at drbeckyatgoodinside for a daily dose of parenting and self-care ideas. Good Inside with Dr. Becky is produced by Beth Rowe and Marie Cecile Anderson, and executive produced by Erica Belsky and me, Dr. Becky. If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review it, or share this episode with a friend or family member as a way to start an important conversation. Let's end by placing our hands on our hearts and reminding ourselves, even as I struggle, and even as I have a hard time on the outside, I remain good inside. [outro music]
Episode duration: 45:32
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