Gloria Steinem on Raising the Next Generation | Dr. Becky & Gloria Steinem in Conversation

1. 0:00 – 1:52

   1:52: Intro & raising sons more like daughters

   1. BEDr. Becky0:00

      There are questions I get from parents, mostly moms, every single week. How do I raise my son to be a good human being in this world? How do I raise my daughter to believe she's enough? How do I be present in motherhood without disappearing into motherhood? Why am I so angry all the time? And why do I feel so alone? Here's what I get to do this episode, and I can't believe I get to do this. I'm going to take those questions, your questions, straight to Gloria Steinem. She's 92, and in one way or another, she's been answering these questions her whole life. Hi, Gloria.

   2. GSGloria Steinem0:39

      [laughs]

   3. BEDr. Becky0:39

      You said something decades ago that just r- rings over and over. I think it's also one of your most quoted quotes. "We've begun to raise our daughters more like sons, but few of us have the courage to raise our sons more like daughters." What do you mean by that?

   4. GSGloria Steinem0:58

      Well, because society views the masculine as superior in some ways, um, and is worried about a threat to masculinity-

   5. BEDr. Becky1:12

      Mm

   6. GSGloria Steinem1:12

      ... for that reason. It, it, it deprives men of humanity, and it deprives w- women of all the qualities seen as masculine, ambition, adventure, whatever it may be.

   7. BEDr. Becky1:30

      Mm-hmm.

   8. GSGloria Steinem1:30

      And actually, we're all human beings. There's way more that unites us than divides us. Gender, race, class, a generation is way, way less [laughs] than all the things that unite us.

   9. BEDr. Becky1:46

      Yeah. What, what could it look like to raise, you know, our sons today a little bit

2. 1:52 – 4:07

   4:07: Letting boys feel: emotion, crying, and repression

   1. BEDr. Becky1:52

      more like our daughters? Like, what comes to mind?

   2. GSGloria Steinem1:54

      Um, w- well, I mean, it, it's not to impose on boys. They should be able to follow their interests. But, um, they also can make extra money as babysitters. They should not be penalized if they're emotional or if they cry, or if they lose out in fights with other guys.

   3. BEDr. Becky2:20

      Mm-hmm.

   4. GSGloria Steinem2:20

      I don't know, whatev- whatever it is.

   5. BEDr. Becky2:22

      Yeah.

   6. GSGloria Steinem2:22

      Uh, they should be allowed to be the unique, individual human beings they are, in which gender is not that important.

   7. BEDr. Becky2:31

      Yeah. And I always like to, you know, make things really concrete, but I think about things that I do wonder if we say more easily, they roll off our tongue, to our daughters, "It's okay to be sad. You're allowed to be upset about that. You can come talk to me about it. Hey, you weren't invited to that birthday party. I'd be upset, too."

   8. GSGloria Steinem2:51

      Mm-hmm.

   9. BEDr. Becky2:51

      Like, those little things, I think, yeah, give our sons permission to have feelings. And I think, you know, one of the things that's almost ironic is we can't learn to manage feelings we think we're not supposed to have. And so if we do raise our sons to think, "You're not supposed to be sad, you're not supposed to be upset," all that means is they will never be able to appropriately manage-

   10. GSGloria Steinem3:14

       Mm

   11. BEDr. Becky3:14

       ... sadness or upset. It doesn't mean they're gonna not have those feelings. They will. They'll just come out. And so I do think that's, like, a very practical step, just to [laughs] you know, your son's gonna get upset, your six-year-old son. Say, "It's okay to be sad. You're allowed to feel that way," I think starts that.

   12. GSGloria Steinem3:29

       No, well, a, a long time ago, we did, uh, something called Free to Be You and Me-

   13. BEDr. Becky3:34

       Mm-hmm

   14. GSGloria Steinem3:34

       ... which movie you've seen, right?

   15. BEDr. Becky3:36

       Yes.

   16. GSGloria Steinem3:36

       Um, and, uh, the, it was a huge, tough football player, I'm trying to remember who it was, who s- sang It's All Right to Cry.

   17. BEDr. Becky3:46

       Mm.

   18. GSGloria Steinem3:47

       Right? [laughs]

   19. BEDr. Becky3:47

       Yeah.

   20. GSGloria Steinem3:48

       And, and you know, to make it all right-

   21. BEDr. Becky3:51

       Yeah

   22. GSGloria Steinem3:51

       ... as it is, of course.

   23. BEDr. Becky3:53

       Yeah.

   24. GSGloria Steinem3:53

       And repressing our emotions is damaging, and it's probably, given the world we're living in, it may still be more damaging to men.

   25. BEDr. Becky4:03

       Yeah. Agree. Okay,

3. 4:07 – 6:22

   6:22: Raising daughters who believe they're enough

   1. BEDr. Becky4:07

      next question for you. You've spent a whole part of your life on women and self-worth. You wrote a book about it. And I hear from moms all the time, "I want to raise a daughter who believes she's enough, but I'm not sure I believe that about myself yet."

   2. GSGloria Steinem4:22

      [laughs]

   3. BEDr. Becky4:24

      What, what's going on there? What, what would you say to that mom?

   4. GSGloria Steinem4:26

      Well, um, the mom has been raised in a different generation, obviously, than the person she's raising. She's conscious of that. And the point is not to conceal it but to talk about it.

   5. BEDr. Becky4:41

      Mm.

   6. GSGloria Steinem4:41

      And to maybe, um, if there were instances and stories that went with that, it, it... our brain works on narrative and not stories, anyway. To tell their daughter those stories so she will be encouraged-

   7. BEDr. Becky4:59

      Mm

   8. GSGloria Steinem5:00

      ... not to repress her tears or whatever it is-

   9. BEDr. Becky5:03

      Mm-hmm

   10. GSGloria Steinem5:03

       ... that she's otherwise pressured to do.

   11. BEDr. Becky5:05

       Mm-hmm. It, there's something as soon as you said it that felt cla- like, clarifying or almost obvious, but it felt counterintuitive for a moment, too. I do think we believe that to raise our kids differently, like, we have to do everything differently, but you're also saying, "Just share your own truth. Like, share the story."

   12. GSGloria Steinem5:24

       Mm-hmm.

   13. BEDr. Becky5:25

       "When, when I was your age, I, I don't know, I struggled with that, too," or, um, it's not about kind of covering that up. Like, just share those stories.

   14. GSGloria Steinem5:32

       Well, no, it is, it- it's also, I mean, gender is an invention. So you've got an individual human, unique human being there. Uh, m- male or female has to do with function, but a lot of it is chosen-

   15. BEDr. Becky5:47

       Mm

   16. GSGloria Steinem5:47

       ... function. And girls ought to be able to play sports or do whatever. And, uh, a- as I was saying, It's All Right to Cry was-

   17. BEDr. Becky6:00

       Yeah

   18. GSGloria Steinem6:00

       ... you know, sung by this huge guy, a- athlete, right?

   19. BEDr. Becky6:04

       Mm-hmm.

   20. GSGloria Steinem6:05

       So it's, it's- The point is that we are each both unique and universal, and to cut it with the categories-

   21. BEDr. Becky6:15

       Yeah

   22. GSGloria Steinem6:15

       ... as much as possible.

   23. BEDr. Becky6:18

       How, how did you learn to trust yourself?

   24. GSGloria Steinem6:21

       Hmm.

4. 6:22 – 9:55

   9:55: Learning self-trust: lessons from her mother and father

   1. GSGloria Steinem6:24

      I guess trial and error, and also in my case, my mother was not so well when I was growing up, so I was looking after her, and maybe that made a difference.

   2. BEDr. Becky6:36

      Hmm.

   3. GSGloria Steinem6:36

      And that was, of course, accidental. Um, and my father was very adventurous-

   4. BEDr. Becky6:44

      Hmm

   5. GSGloria Steinem6:44

      ... and just treated me like a friend or a playmate.

   6. BEDr. Becky6:47

      Hmm.

   7. GSGloria Steinem6:48

      So th- but those are accidents.

   8. BEDr. Becky6:50

      Mm-hmm. But that... I- it's interesting you're talking about a kind of environment that made you ac- access kind of your role as a caretaker, but also as, like, a fellow adventurer and risk-seeker.

   9. GSGloria Steinem7:02

      Mm-hmm.

   10. BEDr. Becky7:03

       Hmm.

   11. GSGloria Steinem7:04

       Yeah, and, um, so with little boys, uh, or young men who are babysitting, I mean, this is good, uh, m- mainly because it's good intrinsically, and also because they might otherwise be deprived of that.

   12. BEDr. Becky7:24

       Mm-hmm.

   13. GSGloria Steinem7:24

       And for girls, who knows? Depends what the girls are missing, but maybe, uh, ambition, competition, sports, um, uh, harder for them to imagine being President of the United States since we've never had a female president-

   14. BEDr. Becky7:43

       Yep

   15. GSGloria Steinem7:43

       ... which other democracies have had-

   16. BEDr. Becky7:45

       Mm-hmm

   17. GSGloria Steinem7:45

       ... to point that out.

   18. BEDr. Becky7:46

       Mm-hmm. Okay. Ne- next question for you. Your mother was a newspaper woman, right?

   19. GSGloria Steinem7:54

       Was a?

   20. BEDr. Becky7:54

       She was, she was a newspaper woman. She worked before-

   21. GSGloria Steinem7:57

       She, before I was born, yeah

   22. BEDr. Becky7:58

       ... before you were born.

   23. GSGloria Steinem7:58

       Mm-hmm.

   24. BEDr. Becky7:59

       Um, and then she, um, given that up or stepped away when she had you. I talk to so many moms who struggle so much with this kind of duality around how invested they are in motherhood and in their chil- children, and, um, how selfish they feel continuing anything that feels, um, where they are kind of the primary beneficiary. [laughs]

   25. GSGloria Steinem8:25

       Mm.

   26. BEDr. Becky8:25

       Um, but at the same time, don't wanna kind of disappear into motherhood. Uh, I'm curious, as you watched your mom, um, yeah, what did, what did you learn?

   27. GSGloria Steinem8:36

       Well, on purpose or accidentally, I don't know-

   28. BEDr. Becky8:39

       Yeah

   29. GSGloria Steinem8:40

       ... uh, my father, um, uh, was atypical. I mean, he had two points of pride. He never wore a hat, which his generation, I guess, was supposed to do, and he never had a job, by which he meant he always worked for himself.

   30. BEDr. Becky8:55

       Hmm.
5. 9:55 – 12:24

   12:24: Anger, truth, and "it'll piss you off first"

   1. GSGloria Steinem9:55

      I mean, I just remember the, the incident-

   2. BEDr. Becky9:57

      Mm-hmm

   3. GSGloria Steinem9:58

      ... but because I remember it [laughs] -

   4. BEDr. Becky9:59

      Yeah

   5. GSGloria Steinem10:00

      ... it's, it's, and it's clearly a tribute to him.

   6. BEDr. Becky10:03

      Yeah. One, something you said that, that I love is, "The truth will set you free, but first it'll piss you off." Tell me about anger and how, how you've known as women experience anger, avoid anger. I hear about anger and rage all the time from moms-

   7. GSGloria Steinem10:21

      Hmm

   8. BEDr. Becky10:21

      ... and how much it surprises them, and how ashamed they are of it.

   9. GSGloria Steinem10:25

      Well, the idea of feminine and masculine ha- which, of course, doesn't exist. There's human.

   10. BEDr. Becky10:33

       Right. [laughs]

   11. GSGloria Steinem10:34

       S- but we're still, I think, brought up somewhat with that kind of division.

   12. BEDr. Becky10:40

       Mm-hmm.

   13. GSGloria Steinem10:41

       Um, and it makes, uh, it gives us an idea of what is acceptable and not acceptable, as opposed to what is true in the moment.

   14. BEDr. Becky10:51

       Hmm. What is acceptable or not acceptable versus what is true. So we get into, maybe especially as women, "Am I supposed to be angry? Am I overreacting?"

   15. GSGloria Steinem11:02

       Mm-hmm.

   16. BEDr. Becky11:02

       "Would someone else feel angry? Is this too much anger?" Versus, "I feel angry right now."

   17. GSGloria Steinem11:08

       Well, it, I mean-

   18. BEDr. Becky11:09

       Mm-hmm

   19. GSGloria Steinem11:09

       ... I suppose in some ways we're lucky because we don't have a language, unlike the French [laughs] that divides everything into masculine and feminine.

   20. BEDr. Becky11:18

       Mm-hmm.

   21. GSGloria Steinem11:18

       Uh, uh, but still, we have a lot of it.

   22. BEDr. Becky11:21

       Mm-hmm.

   23. GSGloria Steinem11:21

       And if we can just keep thinking human instead of masculine or feminine... I mean, we, we've tried, I hope, and succeeded more in thinking that race, understanding that race doesn't matter. There's humanity. That Black and white is a false division. So if we think of that as an example, maybe it will help us stop thinking of masculine and feminine as an okay division.

   24. BEDr. Becky11:53

       Mm-hmm. One of, one of the things I share a lot with parents, especially moms, is I, I think anger is the feeling that puts us in touch with what we want and what we need.

   25. GSGloria Steinem12:03

       Mm, right.

   26. BEDr. Becky12:04

       And in that way, it's a really important feeling. And I'm thinking about- You said the truth will set you free, but first it'll piss you off.

   27. GSGloria Steinem12:11

       [laughs]

   28. BEDr. Becky12:11

       Where it, it might piss you off as a mom to realize I don't, I don't have as much support [laughs] as I need.

   29. GSGloria Steinem12:16

       Mm-hmm.

   30. BEDr. Becky12:16

       Or I'm doing, you know, much more than my fair share around the house.
6. 12:24 – 14:23

   14:23: The power of community and what gives Gloria Steinem hope

   1. BEDr. Becky12:24

      you know?

   2. GSGloria Steinem12:24

      Yeah, it's kind of a quip, but it's a way of saying that it's okay-

   3. BEDr. Becky12:28

      Yeah

   4. GSGloria Steinem12:28

      ... to be angry.

   5. BEDr. Becky12:29

      Yeah.

   6. GSGloria Steinem12:29

      Right.

   7. BEDr. Becky12:30

      Yeah, it's okay to be angry. I know you also talk about the power of community and kind of women being in rooms, telling the truth, hearing each other's stories. Um, and I do think us moms today, like, we're mostly, I don't know, in our bathroom alone at 11:00 PM-

   8. GSGloria Steinem12:45

      [laughs]

   9. BEDr. Becky12:45

      ... scrolling on our phones [laughs] or something like that. Um, a- and I'm curious if you could just speak to the power of being together-

   10. GSGloria Steinem12:52

       Mm-hmm

   11. BEDr. Becky12:52

       ... being in person, sharing stories.

   12. GSGloria Steinem12:54

       Well, that's, that's what... I mean, the civil rights movement was about being together, uh, uh, and fighting racism together. The women's movement was about being together and fighting sexism together. I mean, that's what social justice, big movements are about. Um, and we each have a little piece of that.

   13. BEDr. Becky13:17

       Mm-hmm.

   14. GSGloria Steinem13:17

       I mean, if we l- just have a meeting once a week with diverse women, it, it might help.

   15. BEDr. Becky13:26

       Right. Yeah. You host a lot of groups of women here to talk about various things. I'm curious what leaves you, I don't know, feeling most hopeful. What are you hopeful about these days?

   16. GSGloria Steinem13:39

       Well, not who's in the White House, I have to say.

   17. BEDr. Becky13:43

       [laughs]

   18. GSGloria Steinem13:45

       I mean, I lived through Reagan and Bush. I never thought I would have to live through Trump.

   19. BEDr. Becky13:49

       [laughs]

   20. GSGloria Steinem13:49

       Um, but part of the reason for that is we've never had a female president. We've, we've eli- uh, so far eliminated half the human race from being eligible, uh, to be our president.

   21. BEDr. Becky14:03

       Mm-hmm.

   22. GSGloria Steinem14:04

       So I hope we see... And actually, we've only had one African American pre- so I hope we see the punishment-

   23. BEDr. Becky14:15

       Hmm

   24. GSGloria Steinem14:15

       ... that comes from categorizing people and eliminating whole groups.

   25. BEDr. Becky14:20

       Hmm. Your new book.

7. 14:23 – 16:04

   15:44: Her new book, the writer's life, and closing thanks

   1. BEDr. Becky14:23

      Maybe ha-

   2. GSGloria Steinem14:23

      It, it's-

   3. BEDr. Becky14:23

      Hold it up

   4. GSGloria Steinem14:24

      ... yes, it's a, it's a, this is a, you know, premature-

   5. BEDr. Becky14:29

      [laughs]

   6. GSGloria Steinem14:29

      ... early copy, but anyway, um, it's a book of essays. I love the essay as a form because it's not as off-putting as a whole book, uh, but allows more depth than an article or, you know, an wh- whatever. Um, and I identify as a writer because it means you don't have a job. [laughs]

   7. BEDr. Becky14:57

      [laughs]

   8. GSGloria Steinem14:58

      You can follow your interests-

   9. BEDr. Becky15:00

      Mm-hmm

   10. GSGloria Steinem15:01

       ... right, hopefully. Um, and, uh, also, I grew up falling in love with Louisa May Alcott, who was-

   11. BEDr. Becky15:10

       Mm-hmm. Yeah

   12. GSGloria Steinem15:11

       ... actually both an adult and a child's author.

   13. BEDr. Becky15:16

       Author.

   14. GSGloria Steinem15:16

       Yeah. Um, so I came to realize how powerful, how powerful finding a, a, a writer you love can be.

   15. BEDr. Becky15:27

       Mm-hmm. Well, thank you. Thank you for your decades of, of movement making and inspiring.

   16. GSGloria Steinem15:34

       Well, and then thank you for this, uh-

   17. BEDr. Becky15:36

       [laughs]

   18. GSGloria Steinem15:36

       ... uh, amazing interview that you-

   19. BEDr. Becky15:38

       [laughs]

   20. GSGloria Steinem15:39

       ... managed to put in my bedroom.

   21. BEDr. Becky15:40

       [laughs]

   22. GSGloria Steinem15:40

       That's amazing. [laughs]

   23. BEDr. Becky15:42

       Thank you.

   24. GSGloria Steinem15:43

       Thank you. [gentle music]

Episode duration: 16:04