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How Childhood Perfectionism Shows Up in Motherhood | Dr. Cassidy Freitas and Dr. Becky

Never Off Duty: Perfectionism and Motherhood Dr. Cassidy Freitas grew up watching her mom - a Hispanic judge who fought her way into white male spaces with no margin for error — come home carrying that same no-error version of herself. Her dad pushed straight A's as the path to financial safety. She absorbed all of it. And then she became a mom. She had a plan. A written, formatted, shared-with-her-doctor birth plan. When it fell apart in the operating room — her daughter already here, her husband saying "look at her," and Cassidy turning her face away — the drive that had gotten her through everything else had nothing to offer her. Dr. Cassidy is a therapist and the author of *Mom Needs a Moment*. In this conversation with Dr. Becky, she traces how perfectionism forms in childhood as a survival strategy, why it works right up until you have a baby, and what it actually looks like to loosen the grip without losing your edge. There's a phrase she comes back to: context is the bridge to compassion. You can't have compassion for the way perfectionism shows up in you as a mom if you don't understand where it came from. Thank you to our partners for making this episode possible: - Ole Henriksen: Use the code DRBECKY30 for 30% off the Banana Bright+ Eye Crème: https://olehenriksen.com/collections/eyecare/products/banana-bright-eye-creme - Airbnb: Host your home or book your next stay on Airbnb: click.pscrb.fm/2f - Coterie: Get 20% off with the code GOODINSIDEBABY20: https://www.coterie.com/

Dr. Cassidy Freitasguest
Jun 23, 202635mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 2:53

    The “good kid” to burned-out mom pipeline

    1. BE

      Okay, listen up. I have some questions for you. Were you the easy kid, the good kid? You know, the one the teachers loved, the one who got the gold stars, the one maybe where your parents described you as, "Oh, we got so lucky with her." Were you responsible, driven? Even if you kind of roll your eyes, like yeah, you kind of had it all together. And now maybe you're a mom, and you're an adult, and you're sitting on the floor of the bedroom at 11:00 PM folding laundry that was already folded, going around cleaning your house, and then maybe finding yourself hysterically crying on the bathroom floor. First of all, I'm not trying to call you out, because holy moly, every single thing about what I just said was totally me. That story was also the story of our guest today, Dr. Cassidy Freitas. Dr. Cassidy is a licensed marriage and family therapist, and she writes about what it looks like for moms to loosen the grip of old patterns, especially patterns of perfectionism, and make a little more room for themselves or maybe for a wider version of who they could be. I'm so excited for an episode solely focused on perfectionism, because I get asked about this all the time, or maybe I get asked about it not explicitly, but so many of the common questions I have can be connected through the lens of perfectionism. I think the conversation I have with Dr. Cassidy today is going to hit you in a lot of ways. I think it's gonna hit your heart. I think it's going to make you think about your early years, and I think it's going to leave you with a new framework to think about some of the things that you're really, really good at, some of the things that make you you, and we would never wanna take away, and maybe a slightly new lens to give you a little bit more freedom along your parenting journey. I'm Dr. Becky. This is Good Inside. I'm really glad you're here. Hi, Cassidy.

    2. CF

      Hi, Becky.

    3. BE

      So I know there's a million topics we could get into today, but there are so many moms I know who have daily battles with perfectionism. And I, I just want us to talk about that today, because perfectionism and motherhood and the way perfectionism in motherhood can sometimes really come from so many years earlier, way before we were moms, and I know it's stuff the two of us have kind of lived into. Um, and so maybe we could just start there. Like, when you hear perfectionism and motherhood, where does your brain start going, or what stories start coming to mind?

  2. 2:53 – 6:38

    Cassidy’s origin story: perfectionism modeled through survival and achievement

    1. CF

      I'm so glad that you decided to talk about this. Um, so what stories come to mind? You know what the first story that comes to mind is, the first image? It's, it's my mom.

    2. BE

      Mm.

    3. CF

      It's my own mom. Um, a co- of course, our bodies, our brains are story-making machines, and so, you know, I could start off with talking about, you know, here's what perfectionism is from a clinical perspective and how I see it show up in my clinical work, and I, I wanna [laughs] get there. But you know what? First, I wanna talk about my mom, um, because a, a lot, uh, I definitely struggled with perfectionism in early motherhood, and that part of me still lives with me today, and I think about my mom. Um, she's a Hispanic woman who is a judge now. And, you know, in order to get to where she is today in primarily white male dominated spaces, there was no room for error for her. And I understand that now. As a kid, all I saw was how that part of her that needed to be perfect, no room for error, to survive, belong, achieve in the spaces that she was showing up in. All I saw, all little Cassidy saw, was the her that came home who had that part of her that followed her home, too. And I idolized her. I still do. Um, and her and I have done a ton of work. She read my book. [laughs] And, um, you know, it... That was actually, that was really healing to, to invite her in to read that and for her to be open to that. Um, but you know, she, she never said sorry, you know? Um, there wasn't room for that. And it also c- my stories, my... When I first hear that word, I also think about my dad, who grew up, um, financially insecure, and the way that he needed to reclaim safety and belonging was also through achievement, and for him, it was, like, straight A's, good grades. You need to get a scholarship. That's the only way you're gonna be able to go to college. And I think about all of that coming together and then becoming parents. And then I think about little me in the midst of all that, just absorbing everything around me, trying to figure out, how do I keep these people, the, these very loving people, but how do I keep them close?

    4. BE

      Mm-hmm.

    5. CF

      How do I belong? How do I stay safe?

    6. BE

      Mm-hmm.

    7. CF

      And there was my little anxious part, and then there was my perfectionist part that stepped in and was like, "Girl, I got this." [laughs] Like, let's just Be perfect. What that does is it makes it so that nobody looks too close, because I'm all put together, and you won't get, you won't have to see these parts of me that feel a little messy, that have some, like, pretty big feelings, these vulnerabilities. If I can just be perfect and achieve and hold that all together, then I will be safe, I will belong, I will be lovable. And you know what? I held that part, was at the wheel for a [laughs] long time.

  3. 6:38 – 9:22

    The subtle messages kids absorb: when “do your best” becomes “be the best”

    1. BE

      Long time. When you go back to your childhood, were there explicit things that were said, or were the lessons more things you picked up from just dynamics around you, or both?

    2. CF

      Definitely both, but there is a saying, you know, um, that was said every day when I was dropped off at school, and it was, "Work hard and do your best." And that sounds really, really, really great, and, and I, I really think that there can be, that can be shared with, with all the right intention and can actually be received with all the things that work out really well. [laughs] For me, though, without, with all the things that I was observing around me and trying to make sense of the world around me, what those were-- how I translated those words, because they weren't, there wasn't, like, a conversation around what do those words actually mean in real time, it was, "Work hard and never stop, and do your best, but also be the best." [laughs]

    3. BE

      I wanna double-click on that, because I do think, you and I have worked with so many different adults, and it, it is rare for someone to say, "You know, I really remember my parents were saying you need to be perfect all the time. You're not allowed to make mistakes."

    4. CF

      Right.

    5. BE

      I don't actually know that many adults who remember their parents saying that, and then, and then they kinda blame themselves, like, "Why am I like this? Like, this is so nuts. Why am I so hard on myself?" And again, it's not about blaming anyone. It's not about blaming your environment or blaming your parents. Everyone's been doing the best they could with what they had available. It's just about understanding yourself, and Cassidy, you just put language to something that I think everyone listening can like pause and do an exercise around. Hold on. There were probably moments in my house that I can still see. It was like that birthday party or the response when I missed the soccer goal, and my parents said all the right things in the car-

    6. CF

      Yeah

    7. BE

      ... but their face said something different. And you can zoom in on a moment where there were words, like the words that were told to you when you were dropped off, or sometimes these flashing memories have no words, just like a scene.

    8. CF

      A facial expression, a scene.

    9. BE

      Exactly. It's, or maybe it's what someone was saying when they were watching your brother and, you know. But what kids do with words said to them, with words said around them, or just with a scene, is they make up a story in their head, and the story gets remembered and practiced over and over. And that's a kid doing their best to try to make meaning and always figuring-

    10. CF

      Yeah

    11. BE

      ... out how can I be the person my family wants us, how can I be the person my family wants me to be so I can get all the love and attention and belonging that actually are my basic needs? So again, this is where fault is to the side, but that is the mantra you went into school with every single day.

  4. 9:22 – 10:48

    Context, systems, and intergenerational patterns (not personal failure)

    1. CF

      It absolutely is. And it's not just, this, this feels so important to say, this is not just a, a thing that my parents decided to say and there was no, like, co- context around it. There were real systems of oppression [laughs] and real, like, cultural discourse that influenced them-

    2. BE

      Yeah

    3. CF

      ... to feel like that is what needs to be said and done in order to survive. And they, right, like, they have their own trauma, and they, they broke some cycles for me, you know? M- my dad hit me once when I was little, and because that was how he was raised, and my mom made sure that that never happened again, as did he, and I'm forever grateful for that, for th- from them.

    4. BE

      Yeah.

    5. CF

      And so little me takes that all in and is like, "Well, that's how you do this then," right?

    6. BE

      Yes.

    7. CF

      That, my nervous system c- and to find safety was like, "Be perfect. Get straight A's." And then I became a mom-

    8. BE

      Yes

    9. CF

      ... and I was like, "How the heck do I be a straight A mom?"

    10. BE

      How did you? I bet you fig- I bet you, I bet you worked the system, Cassidy. You were very good at being perfect.

    11. CF

      [laughs] You think so?

    12. BE

      So what did you do? I mean, I bet it backfired later. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there's a crash, but how did you crush it first? How did you?

    13. CF

      Mm.

    14. BE

      I mean, I say crush in quotes. How did you get straight A's when you became a mom?

    15. CF

      [laughs]

    16. BE

      How did you try to, at least?

  5. 10:48 – 14:27

    Trying to be a “straight-A mom”: the perfect birth plan and the crash

    1. CF

      I got crushed, is what happened. Um, but no, but okay, so to start off, um, I know that you have now, like, the, the baby side of things, and, and, and that, I'm so glad that Good Inside is stepping into the baby world, because this is, this is where we gotta meet parents, because here's [laughs] what happened, you know? Um, I did get straight A's for a lot of my life. I worked myself to the bone. I had some, a lot of panic attacks. I had a lot of anxiety. I was prescribed a lot of things, [laughs] right, to, like, manage that, the panic around, um, you know, performance. Um, and then I got pregnant, and I was like, [laughs] "I know what I'm gonna do. I am going to create the most perfect birth plan that is going to be," and this is in quotes, please hear me when I put this in quotes, "the most natural birth, and I am going to, it is going to be X, Y, and Z. I am writing it out here to my doctor. Please put this in my records. Um, this is the plan." And it was rigid-

    2. BE

      This is my syllabus, and I am going to get an A. This is my syllabus. I've written it out You can go execute-

    3. CF

      Yes

    4. BE

      ... this plan for me. Thank you.

    5. CF

      [laughs] Perfect. Thank you.

    6. BE

      And please, vagina, cooperate.

    7. CF

      [laughs]

    8. BE

      [laughs]

    9. CF

      Please. That's... You were, you were made for this, right?

    10. BE

      Yes.

    11. CF

      Like, this is what we do-

    12. BE

      Yes

    13. CF

      ... body. I will control this situation-

    14. BE

      Yes

    15. CF

      ... to keep, like, ultimately, when I really drop in, that part of me was just, like, in, in my most preferred version of that part, was just like, "We wanna keep you and this baby that we are so looking forward to meeting, we wanna keep you all safe," right?

    16. BE

      Yes. Of course.

    17. CF

      Um, I hired, um, I hired a doula who shared some of these rigid values. I, let me say this so clearly, I love doulas and any, and postpartum support people. I found someone who aligned with my straight-A birth plan.

    18. BE

      Your magnet was strong.

    19. CF

      I'm very rigid.

    20. BE

      Very strong magnet for... [laughs]

    21. CF

      It was very, very strong. [laughs]

    22. BE

      [laughs]

    23. CF

      Yes. And then when it all fell apart, and as speaking of, you said this earlier, when I'd been pushing for two hours and, um, it was time for me to have a belly birth, I remember the look on the doula's face who was in the corner, and I felt so much shame and so much sense of failure. And, and she left, um, that she didn't stick around. And-

    24. BE

      Oh

    25. CF

      ... I was in that delivery that the operating room, and I was so exhausted. I couldn't open my eyes. When they pulled her out, my husband was like, "She's here, Cassidy. She's here. Look at her." And I turned my face away, and was it exhaustion and medications and all the things, and, like, I had not prepared for this. Like, I had, I wasn't... I didn't understand all the cold and the bright lights. Like, I hadn't let my brain go there, 'cause that was how I protected myself from that experience. And so it was all so jarring, but also it was my shame. That part of me that just was whispering in my ear, "You [censored] up. This was your first [censored] job as a mom, and she's here," and I couldn't even look at her. And then that was intense, and that was traumatic. But then it

  6. 14:27 – 17:20

    Postpartum perfectionism: over-giving, exclusive rules, and spiraling anxiety

    1. CF

      was sleep dep- I'm sleep deprived. [laughs] I just, I stayed up constantly. It was like, "I will now give you all of me at every moment, at every waking or sleeping possible moment. I will be here. I will give you everything. I will breastfeed you exclusively." My nipples were scabbed, and they were bleeding, and I got mastitis, and it was just like-

    2. BE

      Hmm

    3. CF

      ... what the heck? [laughs] It, all of my protective mechanisms were not able to keep up, is how it felt. And I remember a moment, I, I remember a time when, uh, she was, she'd been crying for hours, and I called the pediatrician, and they were just like, "Well, you know, she's three weeks now. Like, this is, this is just kind of it." And I finally called my mother-in-law, and she came over. And of course, I hand her to my mother-in-law. She immediately stops crying. And, you know, probably because, I mean, for many reasons, [laughs] but, like, probably one because I, I'm, I'm, I'm the bacon, right? I smell like breast milk. Imme- immediately when you give her to someone else, uh, 'cause she kept rooting, I kept putting her on my breast. Like, and she was getting really gassy and crying, like, 'cause we were just, like, popping on, popping off. She's trying to self-soothe.

    4. BE

      Hmm.

    5. CF

      Handing her to someone else who doesn't have the bacon you can smell, and she's like, "Ugh, she's not... I'm not hungry. I can sleep. Ugh." She fell asleep. The, I, I can make sense of that now, but in the moment-

    6. BE

      Hmm

    7. CF

      ... my thought was, "She would be better off without me. She'd be better off without... She'd be better off with her." I went in my room. I was, like, you know, one of those, like, on the floor moments, just, like, daydreaming about escaping and just berating myself for, "You wanted this. Like, you, like..." And there must be no one else who is, like, this shitty or having thoughts like, "I wanna care for her, but she feels like an alien. I don't feel really attached. I want to go spend a night in a hotel." I'm having thoughts like, I was having scary intrusive thoughts like, I, if I leave the house, I'll drop her, her, like, it'll, bad things will happen, like, image, images of that. Well, turns out [laughs] I had postpartum anxiety, right? Um, but I think at the time, I had shame around that as well. And what shame does is it whispers to you, "Don't let anyone see." What perfectionism whispers is like, "Girl, just hold it all together. Post this thing on Instagram. Like, get dressed. Like, take a shower. Like, you, don't let them close. Don't let them see." It's like channeling my inner, like, Elsa, right? [laughs]

    8. BE

      Uh-huh.

    9. CF

      Like, d- I'm, I'm gonna go build my frozen castle, and you just all stay over there, and I will deal with this mess over here. Um, I'm fine. So many who co- come in, and I'm like, okay, they come in, and a lot of times they come in because they're like, "These certain things with my kids trigger me."

    10. BE

      Yeah.

  7. 17:20 – 18:47

    The nightly perfectionism script: when “margin” arrives and the drill sergeant takes over

    1. CF

      Like, "I feel so triggered." And here's the thing that I have felt and I believe and that I've seen my clients kind of get to. You might... Okay, let's paint a picture. It's the, the kids are finally asleep.

    2. BE

      How old are my kids-

    3. CF

      Finally

    4. BE

      ... in this scenario? Are they seven and five?

    5. CF

      [laughs]

    6. BE

      What are... I, I need the details to imagine things.

    7. CF

      Yeah.

    8. BE

      You know me.

    9. CF

      Okay. You know what? I know. I know. But actually, they're asleep during this whole scenario, so, like-

    10. BE

      Okay, fine

    11. CF

      ... they can be whatever age you need them to be.

    12. BE

      They can be any age. Okay, good.

    13. CF

      Yes. They're finally asleep, though. Um, and I guess if they're finally asleep, they're probably like my five-year-old who is just, like, constantly, like, another snack. Ano- I need a, I need a rub. Like, I, I, my head hurts. Like, [laughs] I need to tell you this story. And I'm like, "Okay." Um, okay, finally asleep. We finally get this margin, which I'm obsessed with, and the book is all about, the through line of the whole book, the punchline is we need margins and space in a multitude of ways. Um, but they fi- you, you fi- this margin finally arrives, and you're like, "Oh my gosh, I finally... I get to catch up on Heated Rivalry that everyone's talking about," or, "I get to, like, have this, like, moment to myself." And then this grading, berating voice, isn't that like a, a TikTok audio or something right now? This grading, berating voice comes in and is like, "Look at all those dishes. Look at that laundry pile. Remember those emails? Remember how that influencer said that you're supposed to pack these lunches before...

  8. 18:47 – 21:02

    Keeping your edge without the shame: shifting the voice behind the decision

    1. CF

      That's gonna help you in the morning?" And, like... And it's a berating voice. It's a voice that feels like, "If I don't do this, I'm doing this wrong, and there's something wrong with me." And, and so my clients are like, "Okay, but that voice, like, helps me, helps me optimize things, like, motivates me. Like, I, I give a lot of credit to a lot of my achievements to this voice." And my, my response to that is th- there is a wa- there's a place to get to where actually the decision might still look like choosing to, um-

    2. BE

      Mm

    3. CF

      ... do that email or do the, the dishes, but it is k- a different [laughs] voice. It is not a berating, drill sergeant, shaming voice. It's, it's that p- it's, it's the self, it's the, it's that version of you that comes in and is like, "Huh, okay. There, I have a couple of options here." And ultimately, you know, guilt, it's just there to let us know when we've done something out of alignment with our values. Doesn't always get it right, doesn't always deliver the message in the way that is the most ideal. Here's, here are the things that I value, and here's what I, the value I'm choosing to prioritize. And actually, maybe sitting down to watch Heated Rivalry and catch up before it gets spoiled, you know, for me on my daily scroll is I, when I get a chance to do this for myself, I will be more present for my kid because I had that margin of space, that margin of time to come back into my body, to come back into the things that I connect with, that feel good. And y- but, and also sometimes that decision is to tidy up something around the house. But it's, it's driven by such a different place and voice, and it's, it's, it's, it could be the same part, but that part is finally, like, able to ease into its role a little bit, sometimes take a, a nap in the [laughs] backseat and not be driving my decision-making. Um, it's, it's a different experience with that part of you. We're not getting rid of this part of you. We're not asking it to, like, take a hike.

  9. 21:02 – 23:33

    A concrete reframe for kids (and adults): ‘take care of my tomorrow self’

    1. BE

      I- I think you know this about me, but I, I, I like making anything concrete, right? And I think so many things-

    2. CF

      Love it

    3. BE

      ... have been made concrete to make movement and shifts on them. And so, you know, I was in a stage with my older kid, and I was like, "Okay, I know he's getting older. He has to, like, pack his backpack. He always has sports after school, like, packing snacks so he doesn't have to spend money that I'm telling him he's not gonna have on the vending machine. Like, he has to do that 'cause he gets home late." There's all these things that have to get done, his water bottle. Not getting done, not getting done. And so I worked with him around kind of what could you do, you know? To get it, you have things you have to get done, and I think that's my professionist- perfectionistic part. There's things you gotta get done, like, you have to do all these things before you do that thing. It's very rigid, very drill sergeant-y, and I helped him create this kind of list, Post-it, like, things I need to do before tomorrow, okay? And it was this list. It went okay. He's a fairly easygoing kid, too, right? Anyway, I made a shift a little bit after that. It's such an interesting shift, and it just goes to the outcome doesn't necessarily have to change, but the process with which we get there is the thing that builds circuitry in our body, and that circuitry will play out in so many other moments, so it's more powerful than the single outcome. So the Post-it changed to, "I will take care of my tomorrow self. Bye."

    4. CF

      I love that.

    5. BE

      And he rolled his eyes. He's like, "Mom," like-

    6. CF

      Of course

    7. BE

      ... "take that. Like, what is wrong with you? Cringe. Disgusting." You know? But then it became, like, a joke, right? And I always think when our kids get older, when they wanna roll their eyes at us, it's just, like, a compromise. They're just like, "This is actually a good idea, but I have to vomit my way through it, so just allow me to do that for my independence." Fine. But the kind of Post-it, it was really little, stayed up, and it has been so much more effective. He now says it-

    8. CF

      Mm

    9. BE

      ... back to me, "Packing snacks, Mom, taking care of my tomorrow self." And I'm like, "I know, so annoying," and then secretly I'm like, "Oh, I played that so well," you know? And when I, I... Okay-

    10. CF

      Nailed it

    11. BE

      ... you win, I win. I really win. Um, but when I think about my kids' future and I think about them living outside my house and asking themselves the question, like, "Oh, how can I take care of my tomorrow self?" Versus, "Oh my goodness, what's the list of things I have to do, and oh my goodness, I didn't get them done," the circuit is so different. And so I love what you're saying.

    12. CF

      Mm.

    13. BE

      I don't wanna lose my edge. You don't wanna lose your edge. Edges are good. Let's keep our edges. Uh, the way we get there might change, and beyond feeling better, might actually be more effective in a wider-

    14. CF

      Mm

    15. BE

      ... range of situations, right?

  10. 23:33 – 24:32

    ‘Context is the bridge to compassion’: making sense of the pattern

    1. CF

      I think context is the bridge to compassion. If I can-

    2. BE

      Mm

    3. CF

      ... contextualize why this feels, like, so pressured and so intense and so berating and so shameful and so... If I can contextualize that and I can see that it didn't start with me, and actually these are systems that I want to, like, fight against, [laughs] you know? Um, I don't want my kids to absorb these same narratives. If I can contextualize it, it's so much easier for me to have compassion for that part of me when it pops up-

    4. BE

      Oh, so good

    5. CF

      ... and I'm like- And I'm like, "Hey, girl, like of course, of course."

    6. BE

      You know, telling yourself the story about why it makes sense. Why does this make sense? Where did this come from, right? Well, our body... I, I always have this weird thing where I think the feelings part of our body gain acceptance from the cognitive part of our body when we tell ourselves the story of why our feelings make sense. It's like, oh, like we all want-

    7. CF

      Mm

  11. 24:32 – 27:32

    Perfectionism and burnout: when there’s no pause, there’s no capacity

    1. BE

      ... it's like all the parts are kind of in harmony [laughs] inside ourselves. Okay. I have a, I have another question for you around perfectionism and motherhood. Connection between perfectionism and motherhood and burnout.

    2. CF

      Oof. Yes. [laughs] Well, we've been kind of, I think, gearing up towards this, right?

    3. BE

      Yeah.

    4. CF

      Which is if I, if perfectionism is at the wheel, right, and this is the part of me that is like, I need to be incredibly productive. I need to get, do everything exactly right by the book. I need to achieve. I need to, [laughs] again, work hard and never stop, and be the best at this, and then we will be safe, right? If she's at the wheel, she is never [laughs] putting on the brakes, taking a beat, like putting down her phone, right? Like she's never... Oh, just as I was thinking that, there was some, uh, some birds out here that started tweeting.

    5. BE

      I, I heard them.

    6. CF

      Like-

    7. BE

      That was beautiful.

    8. CF

      Did you? [laughs]

    9. BE

      Yeah. Thank you for that audio.

    10. CF

      I'm not getting a chance. [laughs] Thank you for that.

    11. BE

      [laughs]

    12. CF

      Thank you, birds. I don't get it. I don't... She's not pausing to look outside and be like-

    13. BE

      What birds? Mm-hmm

    14. CF

      ... "Oh, yeah."

    15. BE

      Mm-hmm.

    16. CF

      Um, she's not in her calendar, and we can imagine she, that there's this magical calendar that actually on it is every single thing that takes up every single moment of your day, not just the activities and appointments. I'm talking the obscure questions from your kid on the drive home. I'm talking the email pings, the paperwork for summer camps, the five-minute voice note you sent to your friend, right? Like, you're scrolling while you're e- while waiting for your, your coffee. If every moment was filled, and she was at the wheel, [laughs] it would be filled. [laughs] We would be optimizing everything we possibly could and always be on because that's how we f- that, that feels tied to love, I think, too, right, um, and, and safety. Oh. But what our brains are so desperate for, Becky, and I know you know this, our brains desperately need space and margins to even just process everything we consumed, to access things like curiosity and creativity for everything we consumed and how it might apply to our particular life or situation. But in our digital era, intensive parenting era, optimize everything, and then especially [laughs] throw in, um, perfection at the wheel, there of course, of course when your kid isn't listening or is defiant or, like, is, starts crying or screaming, of course our brain is gonna take the most familiar path.

    17. BE

      One last question, then I'm gonna move you to our rapid fire.

    18. CF

      Okay.

  12. 27:32 – 29:32

    A micro-intervention: hand on chest + ‘Of course’ to create the pause

    1. BE

      One thing, and I know you've worked with so many moms in your practice, you know, that, ugh, I need to get this right. I'm not doing enough. That profession- perfectionistic voice. What is one thing someone could do in that moment to just shift a little or try on something new?

    2. CF

      So I immediately put my hand on my chest because that's what I do. [laughs] Like, there is, like, a little bit of just, like, a reconnection to my body, of coming back in my body. I, I am a body that has a body 'cause I can spend so much time, I'm, um, putting my hand over my head and my brain, like in my brain up here just swirling. It's like, oof, wait, coming just back into my body. And I love things like you're enough, right?

    3. BE

      Yeah.

    4. CF

      Like, you're worthy. Like, have compassion. But actually what I like to start with is this phrase. [laughs] I like to say, "Of course. Of course you feel this." Like-

    5. BE

      Oh, so beautiful

    6. CF

      ... I just, just like a child, [laughs] like, needs, like, someone to come in and be like, "This makes sense. These feelings are real. You are real. You are a human body that is feeling this thing, and this is real," I need that, too. These parts of me need that, too. What's so cool is that I'm sure parenting experts, books have talked about this, but, like, where that actually came from, like me knowing, like, that's what I need first, is that little me still lives in me, and maybe p- people call that intuition. Maybe people call that, like, you, like you, you, like you, [laughs] it's already within you, and what I just think it is is, like, I was a kid once, too. I went through things. I had experiences. So it's just, like, a hand on my chest, and it's just like a, "Of course. Of course. This, of course you feel this." And, and then, yes, then it's a, you know, we just, we took a margin, a beat. [laughs] Mom took a moment. It's a beat between trigger and response. Love that for me in this moment, if that's what, what I do, and, and then it's, it's choosing a different response, right? Um, it's all the other good stuff that can come from that, but we first have to take that pause and that beat.

    7. BE

      Yes.

    8. CF

      And that's the through line of Mom Needs a Moment.

  13. 29:32 – 31:34

    Rapid fire: releasing rules, repairing rupture, and defining the legacy

    1. BE

      Ready? Rapid fire.

    2. CF

      Yes.

    3. BE

      Is there a good-mom rule you've let go of?

    4. CF

      Is there a good-mom rule that I've let go of? That it has to be perfect to be enough. It can be messy, and if I don't like certain things around motherhood, that's okay, too. I don't like crafts, and that's okay. [laughs]

    5. BE

      Oh, love it. The first thing your perfectionism tries to do each morning.

    6. CF

      Oh. [laughs] The first thing my perfectionism likes to do each morning is reach for my phone-

    7. BE

      Mm

    8. CF

      ... and things, see, get, see if I got any emails I gotta respond to [laughs] as quickly-

    9. BE

      Easy dopamine

    10. CF

      ... as possible.

    11. BE

      Ready to, ready to get things done.

    12. CF

      Yeah. Mm-hmm.

    13. BE

      Ugh. Um- Okay, a way you let your kids see you be imperfect that you're proud of

    14. CF

      [laughs] The other day, uh, I ha- yelled at my son, lost it with him. Said something along the lines of, like, "It gets harder than this, dude." You know, it was really, really great. Um, and he looked at me, and he's like, "You'll be saying the S word soon." And I got-- My eyes got big. He's like, "You'll be saying sorry," and he, like, stomped off to his room. And what that means to me, it took me a while to, like, realize that that wasn't just a complete shit show of a moment as a parent, but what I realized was he knew that was coming. Um, something in his body knew that I would repair, uh, and that I'm proud of because I say sorry many times in a day.

    15. BE

      Okay, last one. Think about one of your kids when they're older, and someone just says, "Oh, your mom? Like, what was she like?" How do you hope they answer that?

    16. CF

      I hope that they say, "I felt this-- I felt so safe around her. She let me be everything that I was being and becoming, and there was never a question of whether or not I could call her."

    17. BE

      [instrumental music]

  14. 31:34 – 34:53

    Closing reflections and resources: ‘I’m here’ and staying good inside

    1. BE

      You know, one of the things I keep thinking about in terms of my conversation with Dr. Cassidy was her response when I asked her kind of what she does or what she recommends people do when they feel that intense perfectionistic urge come up. And what both surprised me and resonated deeply about what she said is she didn't have kind of another task. That's what I was ready for, my own perfectionistic part. "Okay, then I'm gonna go do this thing, and that's gonna work, and I'm gonna crush that new coping skill." [laughs] No, and of course not because she's so brilliant. She said what she recommends people do is take a moment. In some ways, when our perfectionistic part really activates, we're far away from ourselves, and her recommendation was just to come back to yourself in a really simple and powerful way. I know my version of that is I put my hand on my heart, kind of tap my heart, and just say, "I'm here. I'm here." And it wasn't until my conversation with Cassidy that I realized maybe this is kind of adult Becky speaking to that inner child perfectionistic Becky. That's why the "I'm here" is kind of so powerful. So if that resonates with you, feel free to try it on. Dr. Cassidy's new book is called Mom Needs a Moment: How to Stop Your Reaction Before It Starts and Become a Calmer, Happier, More Connected Parent, and there is a link to it in the show notes, and I have a feeling it's gonna be really helpful. I also want to make sure you know that every single day, parents are on the Good Inside app connecting with each other and having real conversations and kind of untangling their parenting from, yeah, all the re-parenting we're doing for ourselves. And so if this conversation struck you because it was more than just strategies for tantrums, it was actually about the reflections and understanding the work we do along our parenting journey, I have never been more convinced that the Good Inside app is for you because parents tell us all the time, "I changed even more than my parenting changed, and holy moly, did my parenting change." Visit goodinside.com to learn more. I also wanna make sure you know that I now have a second podcast. I know. I'm actually so proud because it allows me to return to such an important time in the parenthood journey, the very, very beginning. It's called Rattled, and it's about the moments new parenthood shakes us, and there's so much of what Cassidy was saying that was reflecting on those early months when we're beginning our relationship with our new identity as a mom and our new relationship with a baby. And so I wanted to make sure you knew about that, and honestly, I would just love if you share that podcast, that feed, with a new parent or a pregnant person in your life because I think it's really gonna help them. And now, let's end the way we always do, and this feels especially apropos as we talk about perfectionism. Place your feet on the ground and a hand on your heart. Ooh, and let's remind ourselves, and let's remind that inner child in us, even as we struggle on the outside, we remain good inside. [instrumental music] I'll see you soon.

Episode duration: 35:13

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