I Wanted to Be a Different Kind of Dad - Then I Had a Baby

Aymann Ismail 0:00 I, I've wanted to be the dad that I didn't have, um, who was active, who was interested-

Dr. Becky 0:06 Yeah

Aymann Ismail 0:06 ... who was involved hands-on. I wanted to be the kind of dad that could do it all right and be involved in a way that would benefit the family. And, like, right away I learned that that was not the right way to do it. The one of the first things you lose is total control of how you're perceiving things and how, like, how you control yourself. It just is out the window. That's the first thing you lose. And then, uh, that's where I started to feel, like, useful. It's like, okay, I can do something-

Dr. Becky 0:32 Yeah

Aymann Ismail 0:32 ... even if it's not directly-

Dr. Becky 0:33 Yeah

Aymann Ismail 0:33 ... like tending to the baby.

Dr. Becky 0:35 This is Rattled, a show for when new parenthood shakes you. If you're new here, here's what we do. We take the thoughts and experiences that show up in new parenthood, the ones that feel too big, too shameful, too confusing to say out loud, the ones that nobody prepared us for, and we sit with them together. Today's experience is one that I think a lot of fathers, a lot of non-birthing parents experience. I'm just looking to feel useful around here. That thought often leads to anger or to disengagement, even though, of course, underneath it is actually a beautiful thing. That parent wants to be involved. So that's what we're going to talk about today. Today's guest is Aymann Ismail. He's the author of the book Becoming Baba. He's a Slate writer, and he shares a deeply honest exploration of what happens when becoming a parent forces you to see yourself and your own parents and your early

Dr. Becky 1:36 years differently. If you've ever thought about, "How am I going to continue being the person I was before a baby? Is that even possible now?" this episode is for you. [gentle music] Who were you before you became a father? Tell me about that guy.

Aymann Ismail 2:04 You want me to tell you who I was before I became a dad?

Dr. Becky 2:06 Yeah.

Aymann Ismail 2:06 I don't even remember that.

Dr. Becky 2:07 [laughs]

Aymann Ismail 2:09 What? Who was I before-

Dr. Becky 2:10 Yeah

Aymann Ismail 2:10 ... I became a dad? So much more cool than I am right now, I'll tell you that. Uh, I was a photojournalist for, like, a very cool graffiti skateboarding magazine.

Dr. Becky 2:22 Oh my goodness.

Aymann Ismail 2:23 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 2:23 You, you weren't lying about the cool.

Aymann Ismail 2:25 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 2:25 Okay. And where, where did your confidence come from pre-fatherhood? Like, what were you really confident about back then?

Aymann Ismail 2:33 Hmm. I wouldn't say I was... I wouldn't describe myself as confident. I would just say that I was, like, really out of my body, you know? So I was always just engaging in activities, always doing the next thing. So I, I-

Dr. Becky 2:46 Yeah

Aymann Ismail 2:46 ... I didn't spend a lot of time, like, arguing about myself or explaining myself to people.

Dr. Becky 2:51 Yeah.

Aymann Ismail 2:51 I was always just doing the next thing.

Dr. Becky 2:53 Hmm.

Aymann Ismail 2:53 You know?

Dr. Becky 2:54 Movement oriented, next action.

Aymann Ismail 2:55 Movement oriented.

Dr. Becky 2:56 You like to do things.

Aymann Ismail 2:56 Goal oriented.

Dr. Becky 2:58 Yep.

Aymann Ismail 2:58 Excited about just being at this, a spot that I've never been to before.

Dr. Becky 3:01 Yeah.

Aymann Ismail 3:01 That kind of thing.

Dr. Becky 3:02 Spontaneous?

Aymann Ismail 3:03 Impulsive.

Dr. Becky 3:04 Impulsive. [laughs]

Aymann Ismail 3:05 [laughs]

Dr. Becky 3:05 I'm giving you the most generous interpretation.

Aymann Ismail 3:07 I know. [laughs]

Dr. Becky 3:07 Okay. Um, so actually I have a question way before becoming a father. You're partnered.

Aymann Ismail 3:11 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky 3:12 Okay. There's-

Aymann Ismail 3:14 Not way before.

Dr. Becky 3:15 Okay. But I'm just thinking-

Aymann Ismail 3:16 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky 3:16 ... before in this interview I get to fatherhood. I'm just in my own head right now.

Aymann Ismail 3:21 Okay.

Dr. Becky 3:21 Um, being in a partnership is a form of a limit.

Aymann Ismail 3:26 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky 3:27 Right? How did that, how did that adjustment happen?

Aymann Ismail 3:30 Well, she was super hot, right? So I think that, like, really changes the game.

Dr. Becky 3:33 Those are the important things.

Aymann Ismail 3:35 Uh, I mean, respectfully. [laughs]

Dr. Becky 3:38 She's respectfully hot.

Aymann Ismail 3:39 Yeah. She's... Respectfully to her and to-

Dr. Becky 3:41 I've never heard of that, respectfully hot. I like it.

Aymann Ismail 3:43 Yeah. No, she really is. She's really, really cool. So, um, I met her spontaneously. I was just in my apartment with a bunch of other people in Brooklyn.

Dr. Becky 3:51 Huh.

Aymann Ismail 3:51 I was on my way to an art party. A, a friend of mine was having, like, a show in, um, this really awesome venue. So I was about to leave, and then somebody brings along their friend, who is Egyptian like I am, who's really, really, you know, excitable like I am.

Dr. Becky 4:05 Hmm.

Aymann Ismail 4:05 Who just gets-- wants to just, like, do the next thing, just like me.

Dr. Becky 4:07 Interesting.

Aymann Ismail 4:08 And I didn't think that I could ever meet somebody like that, because for my entire life leading up to that moment, I always felt like I had to choose one or the other. Like, am I gonna be this person who is going to be family centric, religious, the kind of person that my parents would accept as, like, a successful Muslim Arab kid?

Dr. Becky 4:26 Hmm.

Aymann Ismail 4:27 Or do I want to be the version of myself that I ended up being, just somebody who was just excited about everything else that New York City and New Jersey had to offer?

Dr. Becky 4:34 Hmm.

Aymann Ismail 4:36 And then in comes this person who I felt like really perfectly inc- embodied both.

Dr. Becky 4:41 Huh.

Aymann Ismail 4:41 You know?

Dr. Becky 4:42 Yeah.

Aymann Ismail 4:42 So for... It was just, I had to learn everything I can from this person.

Dr. Becky 4:46 Huh.

Aymann Ismail 4:46 And so I asked her out. I was like, "Uh, you want to just come with me to this thing? I'm on my way." And she was like, "No." And I was like, "All right, fine." Uh, so I st- I ended up, like, staying a couple hours, and then afterwards asked for her number. And she's like, "No."

Dr. Becky 4:59 There's nothing like-

Aymann Ismail 5:00 Um-

Dr. Becky 5:00 ... a woman with boundaries.

Aymann Ismail 5:01 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 5:01 Nothing.

Aymann Ismail 5:02 But I think at that moment-

Dr. Becky 5:03 Mm-hmm

Aymann Ismail 5:03 ... I just resigned. I was like, "Fine, that's not gonna go in that direction. But let's just be friends-

Dr. Becky 5:07 Hmm

Aymann Ismail 5:08 ... and let me see what I can learn from her anyways."

Dr. Becky 5:09 Hmm.

Aymann Ismail 5:10 And after a, like, honestly a few months, I think I got her to fall in love. And then within a couple years we had babies.

Dr. Becky 5:18 Huh.

Aymann Ismail 5:18 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 5:19 Uh, but what I'm hearing is you're saying, "I met someone just like me," but also that, like, kind of multiplicity, those multiple parts, one of them was there in her, but she was... Sh- she, she could do both.

Aymann Ismail 5:29 She could do both.

Dr. Becky 5:30 Hmm.

Aymann Ismail 5:30 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 5:30 You saw that in her before you saw it in yourself?

Aymann Ismail 5:33 I, yeah, I didn't think I was capable of it. I didn't think anybody was capable of it, really.

Dr. Becky 5:36 Huh.

Aymann Ismail 5:36 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 5:37 Uh-huh.

Aymann Ismail 5:37 And she just seemed to make it look effortless, you know?

Dr. Becky 5:39 Yeah. Yeah. Before we fully transition to questions about fatherhood, before you became a father, did you have ideas about what it would be like?

Aymann Ismail 5:48 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky 5:49 Kind of... You did. So tell me about that.

Aymann Ismail 5:51 Well, I knew what kind of dad I didn't want to be, you know? Uh-

Dr. Becky 5:55 Yeah

Aymann Ismail 5:55 ... so my dad, when I- my entire childhood was sort of one foot in the door, one foot out.

Dr. Becky 6:00 Hmm.

Aymann Ismail 6:01 Uh, he was very, very busy. He worked as a taxi cab driver in New York City. F- he worked the night shift, so he was gone 12, 13, 14, 15 hours a day. And, uh, you know, so he, he was very much somebody who would kind of come in, have a meal, go to sleep, just recover enough to begin his next shift.

Dr. Becky 6:21 Hmm.

Aymann Ismail 6:23 And I knew that that's not the kind of dad that I wanted to be at all. That's the only thing that I really knew. Uh, that being said, like, I understand that, like, the parameters of what he was working with is very different than what we think of fatherhood these days. And, you know, at a certain time, it was just enough to come in and provide money.

Dr. Becky 6:40 Yeah.

Aymann Ismail 6:40 And that was your role as a father, and you fulfilled it, and everything else was fine. So I think for me, wanting a very intimate relationship with my father instructed the way that I wanted very badly to be-

Dr. Becky 6:53 Hmm

Aymann Ismail 6:53 ... intimate with my own kids.

Dr. Becky 6:54 Mm-hmm.

Aymann Ismail 6:55 You know?

Dr. Becky 6:55 Yeah.

Aymann Ismail 6:56 Like, I don't- I still don't really know who he is personally. Like, I'm, I'm veering between whether he's, like, a comedic genius or he's just super awkward.

Dr. Becky 7:04 [laughs]

Aymann Ismail 7:05 Like, I don't know, I still don't know whether he is or isn't.

Dr. Becky 7:08 Yeah.

Aymann Ismail 7:08 'Cause a lot of times he says stuff that's, like, funny.

Dr. Becky 7:10 Yeah.

Aymann Ismail 7:10 Uh, but then he'll just kinda look at you like, "Why do you think that's funny?" I'm like, so, uh, mm... But, so, but I think I want that kind of relationship where, with my kids, where they'll kn- they'll just know who I am.

Dr. Becky 7:21 Yeah.

Aymann Ismail 7:21 You know?

Dr. Becky 7:21 That duality. So you're like, "I don't really know him-

Aymann Ismail 7:23 Yeah

Dr. Becky 7:24 ... in a deeper way."

Aymann Ismail 7:24 I respect him.

Dr. Becky 7:25 Yeah.

Aymann Ismail 7:25 And I think he's amazing.

Dr. Becky 7:26 Yeah.

Aymann Ismail 7:26 And he did a lot for our family.

Dr. Becky 7:27 Yes.

Aymann Ismail 7:28 Um, he just has a lot of stories that I don't think I've heard.

Dr. Becky 7:31 A- and I think, again, I'm just struck by all this duality. Like, my dad, first of all, fathering in a different era.

Aymann Ismail 7:37 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky 7:37 Like, expectations were kind of different, the rule book, wh- whatever was different, what was possible was different.

Aymann Ismail 7:43 Totally. Totally, yeah.

Dr. Becky 7:44 And my dad was doing the best he could as a father w- you know, with everything he had-

Aymann Ismail 7:49 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky 7:49 ... and the circumstances we were dealt, and I know I probably needed something a little different from him, and I wanna do something different as I'm a father.

Aymann Ismail 7:56 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 7:57 Yeah.

Aymann Ismail 7:57 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 7:57 It's so beautiful.

Aymann Ismail 7:57 It's important not to be, like, ungrateful, because they were just doing the best that they could.

Dr. Becky 8:01 100%.

Aymann Ismail 8:01 Uh, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you, like, you should feel bad for wanting to do something different.

Dr. Becky 8:06 I think that, that, that to me is, like, one of the key things we can all reflect on. Like, I, there doesn't have to be blame.

Aymann Ismail 8:11 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky 8:11 Like, we're, we're obsessed, I think, with blame-

Aymann Ismail 8:13 Yeah

Dr. Becky 8:13 ... in this culture. Is it his fault? Okay, is it my fault? Doesn't have to be anyone's fault.

Aymann Ismail 8:17 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 8:17 Um, there can just be multiple truths. He was doing the best he could.

Aymann Ismail 8:20 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky 8:20 I probably needed something a little different, and I can use that to inform how I move forward.

Aymann Ismail 8:24 Totally. And I have no doubt that when my kids grow up, they're gonna feel the exact same way.

Dr. Becky 8:28 That's the best it gets.

Aymann Ismail 8:29 I just don't want them to blame me. [laughs]

Dr. Becky 8:31 [laughs] The best it gets is that.

Aymann Ismail 8:33 Uh, in June 2021, I became a dad. I became a baba.

Dr. Becky 8:39 Mm. Thank you-

Aymann Ismail 8:40 [laughs]

Dr. Becky 8:41 ... for that correction. Um-

Aymann Ismail 8:43 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 8:44 And just, just take me to a moment. Like, what moment in those early days, hard moment, good moment, any of it, like, just what's visceral to you? What do you still see or feel?

Aymann Ismail 8:52 I mean, I'll bring you to, like, the hardest moment of my entire parenthood journey, which happened just the very first day that we brought our f- our son home. It was horrible. So I was under the impression that being a parent was something you can prepare for, so I got all the books. I read, uh, Happiest Baby on the Block. I read all of, like, there's this whole cottage industry that's there if you wanna access it, that's supposed to prepare you for those early days. They tell you exactly when your kids are gonna pee and poo. They tell you how often you're gonna be changing diapers. They tell you everything about what the color of the consistency and X, Y, Z so that you can come in as an expert and know exactly what needs to get done. Total bullshit. Tot- I mean, from my experience, total bullshit. The, the kid came home the first day, and right off the bat, they, my, my wife was having a hard time latching, and so they weren't getting a lot of milk, and so they weren't peeing at all. It was, like, hours, and there was no pee. And I was like, "This baby is starving to death. Like, we need to do something. This baby's crying. I need, as the f- as the father who knows what's supposed to happen, need to intervene," and what I was trying to do is I was trying to force my wife to give up on latching and just feed him formula. I was like, "We have the formula. Baby's hungry. This is a blessing. We need to be able to just feed the baby. Like, that's the goal, isn't it?" And I was just in her ear, like, not leaving her alone, and the b- the, like, the, the latching wasn't happening, and it was just really overwhelming for her. And then she just burst onto the tears, and she was like, "How am I ever gonna survive as a parent if I have to do it with you?"

Dr. Becky 10:28 Mm.

Aymann Ismail 10:29 And I was like, "F- this is, like, the last thing that I saw for myself and my future as, as a new dad." I wanted to be the kind of dad that could do it all right and be involved in a way that would benefit the family and, like, right away, I learned that that was not the right way to do it at all.

Dr. Becky 10:45 Yeah.

Aymann Ismail 10:46 So, um, it was really, really painful for me, like, that period, and I, and I lashed out, and I was like, "You're gonna just starve the baby because of your ego, and this is because of you," and all, I said a really, a lot of hurtful stuff to her-

Dr. Becky 10:57 Yeah

Aymann Ismail 10:57 ... that I really, really deeply regret.

Dr. Becky 10:59 Yeah.

Aymann Ismail 10:59 And, um, yeah, I like, when, seeing her cry, I, yeah, I just hated myself for a long time, so I was like, "Let me just get out of the way. Let me just try doing something else," and so I left, and I went to, it was the summer, so I was, like, tending to my garden. That was, like, my COVID activity. I learned to garden. And so I was, like, just trimming my plants, giving them water, that kind of thing, and then when I came back, it was working. The baby was latching. And so I was like, "I was in the way." And from that moment on, I was like, "I need to totally reevaluate what my role is here. Do I need to be involved in the stuff that she's taking care of?"

Dr. Becky 11:37 Hmm.

Aymann Ismail 11:37 Um, and so we had, like, a l- a, after I deeply apologized and I told her that was never gonna happen again, I made a promise that I was not gonna get in her way, uh, as a new mom either, and I was gonna respect that this is, like, something that your body needs to do, because, um, if the latch doesn't work right away, it's gonna be impossible later and the milk's not gonna come, and there's, like, a whole biology to it that I wasn't appreciative or respecting at the time. So, uh, after I apologized, I, like, asked her, I was like, "How can I help?" And she was like Do the dishes, man. [laughs] Do the laundry. And I was like-

Dr. Becky 12:10 Get me food

Aymann Ismail 12:11 ... do something like that. Yeah, so I did.

Dr. Becky 12:12 Mm-hmm.

Aymann Ismail 12:12 And then, uh, that's where I started to feel, like, useful. It's like, okay, I can do something-

Dr. Becky 12:16 Yeah

Aymann Ismail 12:16 ... even if it's not directly-

Dr. Becky 12:18 Yeah

Aymann Ismail 12:18 ... like tending to the baby.

Dr. Becky 12:20 What, um, first of all, thank you for sharing that, and I know how common that couple dynamic is.

Aymann Ismail 12:26 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 12:26 And what's your own most generous interpretation of just what was going on for you when you were watching-

Aymann Ismail 12:31 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky 12:31 ... the lash not happen, the diapers not happen? Like, your most generous interpretation of, like, how were you feeling? Like, what was happening inside for you?

Aymann Ismail 12:38 For me personally?

Dr. Becky 12:39 Yeah.

Aymann Ismail 12:40 I felt like I needed to, like, be as present as I can. Like, I, I wanted to be the dad that I didn't have, um, who was active, who was interested, who was-

Dr. Becky 12:51 Yeah

Aymann Ismail 12:51 ... involved, hands-on. You know, rolling the sleeves up and getting his hands dirty. Um, I wanted to be changing the diapers. I wanted to be mixing the formula. All that stuff-

Dr. Becky 13:02 Yeah

Aymann Ismail 13:02 ... really excited me.

Dr. Becky 13:03 Yeah.

Aymann Ismail 13:03 You know? So yeah, I, I went in feeling like I could be super dad. Like, I could be him. I could be the dad that I wanted.

Dr. Becky 13:11 Yeah.

Aymann Ismail 13:13 But I realized then that it's, there's, like, different ways of doing that, and in a way, um, you know, there's a partnership, and if you're not fostering the partnership, you c- you're, you're at risk of hurting the partnership, you know, and getting in the way.

Dr. Becky 13:27 Yeah. A- you know, what I'm thinking about is, um, and my own experience, I almost feel bad about, but maybe it's also not surprising. I've never really thought about what I'm about to say for the dad.

Aymann Ismail 13:36 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky 13:38 But I think one of the things that happens for women when we have a baby is we don't realize, um, all the different things that unconsciously become a symbol of whether we're a good mom.

Aymann Ismail 13:49 Hmm.

Dr. Becky 13:50 That's what we get surprised by. I actually think if we had that and we were a little less prepared about, I don't know, the specific bottle we needed, like-

Aymann Ismail 13:59 Yeah

Dr. Becky 13:59 ... we'd probably be better-

Aymann Ismail 14:00 Yeah

Dr. Becky 14:00 ... better.

Aymann Ismail 14:01 I mean, I- you're right. Like, I did learn how to swaddle.

Dr. Becky 14:04 Yeah.

Aymann Ismail 14:04 That was nice.

Dr. Becky 14:05 Yeah.

Aymann Ismail 14:05 And swaddling did come in handy, and I was the designated swaddler in the family. Um, I know. I was pretty good at it, too.

Dr. Becky 14:12 I bet you were. Look like a guy who can do hard things.

Aymann Ismail 14:14 I coulda had a career in, like, rolling sushi if I wanted to.

Dr. Becky 14:17 Mm.

Aymann Ismail 14:17 You know, and after that experience?

Dr. Becky 14:19 It's never too late.

Aymann Ismail 14:19 Or at least, like, a job at Chipotle, at least.

Dr. Becky 14:22 Never too late.

Aymann Ismail 14:22 Um, but I would say-

Dr. Becky 14:25 Mm-hmm

Aymann Ismail 14:26 ... emotionally, even if you are, like, trying to have a game plan, you know, like I, I played football in high school, and it's like everybody has a plan until you get hit in the head, right? As soon as the ball snaps, it's like you're-

Dr. Becky 14:38 Yeah

Aymann Ismail 14:38 ... just responding biologically, like, what is, what is the next thing you're gonna do? That's a lot ... I, I, I felt the same way after, like, that first three weeks-

Dr. Becky 14:48 Yeah

Aymann Ismail 14:48 ... of no sleep.

Dr. Becky 14:49 Yes.

Aymann Ismail 14:50 And you're, you're just on autopilot.

Dr. Becky 14:51 Yes.

Aymann Ismail 14:52 And I, I would say the best thing that I did for myself, that I think saved me from, like, really floundering further than I was, was taking time to sit down and write everything on paper. Like, how I was experiencing things. So for example, there was a moment when I thought my whole life was gonna fall apart. It was like 4:00 in the morning.

Dr. Becky 15:13 Mm.

Aymann Ismail 15:14 Uh, baby was sleeping. My wife was pumping, and so she was, like, putting milk in the fridge. And so I was, uh, we were gonna take turns to feed the baby at night. She was gonna breastfeed, and I was gonna give a bottle every other feeding. And then when I went to go reach for it, the, the bottle just, like, slipped through my hands and spilled all over the floor, and it would take her hours, hours to fill a bottle, and it was, like, painful, and she was, like, using all these creams to, like, deal with the pain, and it was like a whole thing.

Dr. Becky 15:45 Mm.

Aymann Ismail 15:45 And my, my gut reaction, 'cause I was so frustrated and sleep-deprived, was, "I can't believe that she didn't screw the bottle on tight," or something like that, 'cause it was just gonna turn into something. Um, but before, uh, 'cause I woke up earlier that, that morning, I just wrote it down, and I just expressed what I was feeling and what happened and, like, why I felt all the emotions. I was, like, trying to just, like, justify it on paper-

Dr. Becky 16:08 Yeah

Aymann Ismail 16:08 ... like I was explaining to somebody else.

Dr. Becky 16:10 Yeah.

Aymann Ismail 16:12 And it just sort of vanished. Like, I just didn't... I apologized, and I was like, "That's not gonna happen again."

Dr. Becky 16:16 Yeah.

Aymann Ismail 16:16 Like, I was just really tired, and you know what she said? "It's cool. Happens."

Dr. Becky 16:21 Yeah. But, but knowing that in advance and trying to think about yourself-

Aymann Ismail 16:25 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky 16:26 ... and journal about it, that is, like, I always think about this concept of, like, the emotional registry rather than, like, the baby item registry.

Aymann Ismail 16:33 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky 16:33 Like, that's the emotional registry items-

Aymann Ismail 16:36 That's the... Yeah, I like that

Dr. Becky 16:36 ... that really matter.

Aymann Ismail 16:37 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky 16:37 Right? And [laughs] I think that's so important. There's a very specific moment in the day a lot of parents hit, usually in the afternoon, where you're still going, but everything feels harder than it should. You're answering questions, making decisions, trying to stay patient, and suddenly simple things feel complicated. Like, why does choosing a snack suddenly feel like a high-stakes decision? And most of us, me included, have the tendency to just push through it, power through. But I've started to pay more attention to those in-between moments and how something as basic as hydration can actually help, and that's what I like about element's sparkling electrolyte drinks. They're designed for those exact moments, not just workouts, but real life, school drop-off, the transition between soccer and coming home, that mid-afternoon dip around 4:07 PM, and it's a simple grab-and-go can, no mixing, no prep, something I can just reach for when I need a small reset for me. No sugar, no artificial ingredients, just a way to support yourself a little better in the middle of a long day. If you wanna try it, element is offering a free gift with any purchase. Just go to drinkelement.com/goodinside. That's drink LMNT.com/goodinside. [relaxing music] Tell

Dr. Becky 18:12 me about how you and your wife... Like, yeah, like, what happened in your partnership?

Aymann Ismail 18:17 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky 18:18 Like, I'm hearing about these moments, but what, what sticks out to you about those first couple months?

Aymann Ismail 18:24 It was v- a, a lot more strained than it had ever been-

Dr. Becky 18:28 Yeah

Aymann Ismail 18:28 ... in our entire relationship. Um, so we'd actually met and got married within the same year, you know? Which I think is really rare in, like, this day and age.

Dr. Becky 18:40 Yeah.

Aymann Ismail 18:41 Uh, but for, like, Muslims and Arabs, it's, like, not that uncommon.

Dr. Becky 18:44 Yeah.

Aymann Ismail 18:44 Uh, but for us, it was like we were still kind of getting to know each other at that, at that moment, you know? Um, and there's a lot of reasons for it. It's like, if you wanna, like, move in together and have all that thing, you do need to... We don't, we don't do that unless we're married.

Dr. Becky 18:57 Yeah.

Aymann Ismail 18:58 And, uh, she'd, like, just graduated with her master's, and, you know, she just want... It, it was the right time for both of us.

Dr. Becky 19:07 Yeah.

Aymann Ismail 19:07 And so when we had our first kid, we were still... We'd never really had, like, a big obstacle that either of us had to overcome with the other. We were still kind of, like, in this honeymoon-

Dr. Becky 19:18 Yeah

Aymann Ismail 19:18 ... we love everything about you kind of phase.

Dr. Becky 19:20 Yeah.

Aymann Ismail 19:20 You know, even when we were, like, nesting-

Dr. Becky 19:22 Yeah

Aymann Ismail 19:22 ... I, I noticed how she was just loving all of my ideas, and I was loving all of her ideas, and we were just so in love.

Dr. Becky 19:29 Mm-hmm.

Aymann Ismail 19:29 You know? Um, and it was, made that whole process really easy.

Dr. Becky 19:33 Yeah.

Aymann Ismail 19:34 So I think we, we put a lot of weight on it when we didn't disagree, when we, when we did disagree, and w- it was a lot of, it was very emotional for both of us trying to figure out, like, who are we actually dealing with?

Dr. Becky 19:46 Yeah.

Aymann Ismail 19:46 You know?

Dr. Becky 19:47 Yeah.

Aymann Ismail 19:47 So the stakes felt really, really high. And, uh, our baby, you know, looking back, was, like, not a difficult baby. It wasn't like they were crying every moment they were awake, you know? But obviously they're crying a lot, and our, our panic is going off 'cause that's what they're crying is for. They're trying to alert us that they need something, right? Dirty diaper or whatever the hell they need. And yeah, I think part of it was experiencing a new side of our partner that we had just never encountered before.

Dr. Becky 20:16 Yeah.

Aymann Ismail 20:17 You know?

Dr. Becky 20:17 Yeah.

Aymann Ismail 20:19 And I'm really glad we did that that way because in the end it wasn't that it was insurmountable. It was very sur- It was, like, very easy to do in the end. It was just a matter of, like, overcoming our own assumptions about how the other person would handle whatever situation.

Dr. Becky 20:34 Mm-hmm.

Aymann Ismail 20:34 And so for example, um, when we did start having, when we did start having, like, advice for each other or opinions about how the other person was doing things, it was my wife's idea. She was like, "New rule: If you think you could wash the bottles better, then that is your job. So if you have-

Dr. Becky 20:52 Hmm

Aymann Ismail 20:53 ... an idea on how to wash something, or how to do the laundry better, or you don't like the way I fold stuff-

Dr. Becky 20:58 Yep

Aymann Ismail 20:58 ... or you don't like the way I do this or do that-

Dr. Becky 21:00 Ugh

Aymann Ismail 21:00 ... then that's your job now." And she's like, "And vice versa."

Dr. Becky 21:03 That's a great rule.

Aymann Ismail 21:03 "If I give you an opinion about something, then I will, then it's automatic that's gonna be my job now."

Dr. Becky 21:10 Yeah.

Aymann Ismail 21:11 And guess what? We kept our opinions to ourselves. [laughs]

Dr. Becky 21:15 100%. And that, that is such a good way of phrasing it because do I really care enough about this thing-

Aymann Ismail 21:20 Yeah

Dr. Becky 21:20 ... to then make it my job is a very different barometer than just how easy it is to criticize.

Aymann Ismail 21:24 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 21:24 Like, that's what's happened with me and my husband. He thinks I load the dishwasher-

Aymann Ismail 21:28 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky 21:28 ... in the wrong way. I'm like-

Aymann Ismail 21:29 Yeah. That's-

Dr. Becky 21:29 "Great"

Aymann Ismail 21:30 ... I, I said the exact same thing.

Dr. Becky 21:30 I never have to un-... Great. So-

Aymann Ismail 21:32 There's a right way to do it, and there's a wrong way to do it.

Dr. Becky 21:34 See, there are people in this world who feel like that, and there's people like me who's like, "Whatever. Just throw it in."

Aymann Ismail 21:37 Yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Becky 21:37 "It doesn't matter." My husband, if he hears me say this in this podcast, like, it's probably the most triggering thing. He's like, "Ah, there is a right way," you know?

Aymann Ismail 21:44 I'm on your husband's side.

Dr. Becky 21:45 Okay, fine.

Aymann Ismail 21:45 I think he's right.

Dr. Becky 21:45 But do you do the dishwasher loading?

Aymann Ismail 21:47 I do.

Dr. Becky 21:48 Yeah, see, and so does my husband.

Aymann Ismail 21:49 Well, actually, I, I did at that stage.

Dr. Becky 21:51 Yeah.

Aymann Ismail 21:51 And now it's she does it.

Dr. Becky 21:53 Oh.

Aymann Ismail 21:54 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 21:54 And you shut your trap?

Aymann Ismail 21:56 I shut my trap.

Dr. Becky 21:57 [laughs] This is, that is, that is a great rule. I actually think that is a really helpful rule to, like, just any couple listening to this.

Aymann Ismail 22:05 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky 22:05 Like, look at each other and be like, "Do we wanna do that?"

Aymann Ismail 22:07 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 22:08 Yeah.

Aymann Ismail 22:08 Do you care about this enough to just do it from now on?

Dr. Becky 22:11 Yeah, because if not, what's the rule?

Aymann Ismail 22:13 Keep it to yourself.

Dr. Becky 22:14 Keep it to yourself.

Aymann Ismail 22:14 [laughs]

Dr. Becky 22:15 If not, write it in a journal.

Aymann Ismail 22:16 Yep.

Dr. Becky 22:17 [laughs] As many times as you would like.

Aymann Ismail 22:19 Yep.

Dr. Becky 22:19 And hide that journal from me.

Aymann Ismail 22:20 Yep.

Dr. Becky 22:20 I, I love it. It's valid to youse- to yourself.

Aymann Ismail 22:22 And it works really great.

Dr. Becky 22:23 It, it really does. It really, really does. I love that.

Aymann Ismail 22:26 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky 22:27 Okay, there's two things I wanna bring back that you were talking about. Number one, I'm thinking about how much of your identity and time spent in your early years were around adventure, limit seeking, pushing the limits, saying out, and I'm curious how that, how did that come into play when, at least for me, and maybe this wasn't for you, I feel like so many of the early months that the baby was, like, stuck at home-

Aymann Ismail 22:48 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky 22:48 ... so monotonous. It was, like, all limits and no, no real adventure in the same way. I'm curious how that went for you.

Aymann Ismail 22:55 Still dealing with that.

Dr. Becky 22:56 Okay. [laughs]

Aymann Ismail 22:57 But, uh, uh, I mean, how honest can I be?

Dr. Becky 22:59 I'm 100%, 110% honest.

Aymann Ismail 23:02 Really? Really?

Dr. Becky 23:02 Yeah.

Aymann Ismail 23:03 All right, I'm gonna tell you how much of a scumbag I am.

Dr. Becky 23:04 Okay.

Aymann Ismail 23:05 Um, so my wife works part-time, and I work from home. So usually I'm home all the time, and on the days that she's working in the hospital where she works, I'm just, like, doing full dad duty, everything, right? I work full-time, so it cuts into my hours. But for some re- I'm, like, doing the math in my head, but I'm not saying anything out loud.

Dr. Becky 23:23 Hmm.

Aymann Ismail 23:23 So whenever she has, like, a night that she wants to, like, go out or do something with her friends, it hurts my feelings, you know? Um, because she's, like, has the freedom to do it, and it's not that I'm, like, not giving myself the opportunity to do it, and I feel like it needs to be balanced or it needs to be even or we need to, like-

Dr. Becky 23:46 Mm-hmm

Aymann Ismail 23:46 ... count how many days or something like that.

Dr. Becky 23:48 Mm-hmm.

Aymann Ismail 23:48 Which I know is the wrong thing to do.

Dr. Becky 23:49 No, no, but I'm just, I'm looking at this-

Aymann Ismail 23:50 But emotionally-

Dr. Becky 23:51 Give me the bridge

Aymann Ismail 23:52 ... like, at 1:00 AM or something like that-

Dr. Becky 23:53 Yeah

Aymann Ismail 23:54 ... I'm at home, like, going to bed. Kids are tucked in. They're all fed. They're cleaned, and I'm like, "How is she not home yet?"

Dr. Becky 24:00 Like, resentful?

Aymann Ismail 24:02 A little bit.

Dr. Becky 24:02 Angry?

Aymann Ismail 24:02 A- no, not very angry.

Dr. Becky 24:04 No.

Aymann Ismail 24:04 But, like, jealous.

Dr. Becky 24:06 Jealous.

Aymann Ismail 24:06 Jealous.

Dr. Becky 24:07 Jealous of who she's with or jealous that she has the audacity to be out till 1:00 AM while you're home with the kids?

Aymann Ismail 24:12 That, the second one.

Dr. Becky 24:13 The second one.

Aymann Ismail 24:14 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Becky 24:14 Uh-huh.

Aymann Ismail 24:15 Not the audacity. Audacity's too aggressive.

Dr. Becky 24:16 No.

Aymann Ismail 24:16 It's more like she's- Uh, she's living the life that she wants-

Dr. Becky 24:21 Mm

Aymann Ismail 24:21 ... and I almost feel like I'm being kept from living the life that I want.

Dr. Becky 24:23 Mm. By?

Aymann Ismail 24:25 Um, by just the responsibility, you know?

Dr. Becky 24:27 Mm.

Aymann Ismail 24:27 You can't leave the kids home alone. Uh, but on the days where I'm, like, working full time-

Dr. Becky 24:32 Mm-hmm

Aymann Ismail 24:32 ... and stuff and, like, catching up on work when the kids go to sleep, I almost feel like I either don't have the energy to go out or too busy to go out.

Dr. Becky 24:40 Mm.

Aymann Ismail 24:40 Um, so it's still just a matter of, like, figuring out-

Dr. Becky 24:43 Yeah

Aymann Ismail 24:44 ... well, I, I mean, I already know that it's not fair for me to, like, hold that against her. But I, but at the same time, I know that I still need to find a way to make my own joy, make my own space-

Dr. Becky 24:54 Mm-hmm

Aymann Ismail 24:54 ... for the things that make me happy, too.

Dr. Becky 24:56 Yeah.

Aymann Ismail 24:56 And I shouldn't hold it against her because I hadn't figured that out for myself yet.

Dr. Becky 25:00 Yeah, well, there's... I mean, I always think feelings are information. Feelings are data.

Aymann Ismail 25:04 Hmm.

Dr. Becky 25:05 I don't know if you ever thought... I don't, that's how I think-

Aymann Ismail 25:06 No, I never thought of it that way.

Dr. Becky 25:07 Yeah. They're, they're probably, like, the, I think, the primary source of data in our body about what we care about, what we need, what we're yearning for-

Aymann Ismail 25:15 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky 25:15 ... what's unmet. Um, if that feeling or even the thought, "I can't believe she's out," or whatever it is-

Aymann Ismail 25:22 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky 25:22 ... isn't the truth of the story, it's just one version. It, it's not the truth of the feeling, it's just one version of a story.

Aymann Ismail 25:30 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky 25:30 But if we use that to kind of come back, oh, w- what's underneath that? Like, what is that telling me? Is this hel- just go there with me. Is it telling me, "I wish she was home with me"? Do, do I miss time with her? Is it not that, it could be multiple things. Is it, I'm thinking about myself out at 1:00 AM and how I used to do that, and honestly, I'm almost too tired for that, and at the same time, I miss it. Are we not talking about these things before they happen, and do I kind of need to feel seen in all the ways I'm doing all this labor to enable her to go out? And actually, if I just felt acknowledged for that, my feeling might be different. I don't know, I'm just playing around with it. Any of those-

Aymann Ismail 26:08 I need, like, a whiteboard to, like-

Dr. Becky 26:09 Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a lot of options

Aymann Ismail 26:10 ... explain, like, all the... Yeah, yeah. Because it's a little bit of everything-

Dr. Becky 26:13 Okay

Aymann Ismail 26:13 ... but I think it's still mostly that I haven't found a way for, to do it myself.

Dr. Becky 26:18 Yeah.

Aymann Ismail 26:18 Uh, I tried it the other night. A friend of mine had a birthday.

Dr. Becky 26:21 Yeah.

Aymann Ismail 26:21 So when she, like, wanted to do, like, a comedy show. I went and I was laughing way too hard because I just felt like I needed to.

Dr. Becky 26:27 Yeah.

Aymann Ismail 26:28 Um, but I still was at home at, like, 10:00 because I was just, like, too tired, you know?

Dr. Becky 26:33 Mm.

Aymann Ismail 26:33 And I still have, like, work I need to catch up on.

Dr. Becky 26:36 Yeah.

Aymann Ismail 26:36 You know? Um, but yeah, so it, it still feels like I need to figure out how to do a little bit of what I was doing before so that I can feel better about my wife doing what she was doing before, too.

Dr. Becky 26:49 Yeah.

Aymann Ismail 26:49 You know? And I, like, would, would, was very frank and honest about it with, like, some of those people who I was telling them. I was like, "Look, this is just, I'm a different person now," you know?

Dr. Becky 26:57 Mm.

Aymann Ismail 26:59 And I got some comfort out of that, but it still, still feels like there's more work to do on that front.

Dr. Becky 27:03 Yeah. And, like, only you know, but, and maybe that's true, or maybe it's a recalibration of, like, I'm gonna be there, and yeah, I'm gonna be the guy who leaves early. And of course it's, my first voice is gonna be like, "This sucks."

Aymann Ismail 27:14 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 27:14 "That wasn't even worth it." But maybe I just know to expect that voice 'cause it's, it's recalibrating.

Aymann Ismail 27:20 You know what I'm telling myself these days?

Dr. Becky 27:21 Yeah.

Aymann Ismail 27:22 One day my kids are gonna be old enough for me to just bring them with me.

Dr. Becky 27:26 Yeah. I-

Aymann Ismail 27:27 And that gives me a little bit of hope.

Dr. Becky 27:29 Well, you know, it's, it's interesting 'cause I have this friend. I'm, I was never a very, very spontaneous person. I'm very boring and, you know-

Aymann Ismail 27:34 [laughs]

Dr. Becky 27:34 ... I do, I like predictability. [laughs] Um, but I think about one of my friends who, not exactly the same as you at all, but, like, on the inside, like, ugh, just, like, the spontaneity, the travel, the fun, the I'm up for it, let's go, let's go, let's go. And you know, and we were talking about her transition to motherhood, and she's like, "Geez, my kids are gonna love that version of me-

Aymann Ismail 27:53 Mm

Dr. Becky 27:54 ... in a decade," you know? [laughs]

Aymann Ismail 27:55 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 27:55 Like, and it's so true, and they're gonna benefit from that in a decade. And different stages of parenting, I think what's interesting, are hard for us, so often based on how we think of ourselves and what matters.

Aymann Ismail 28:07 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky 28:07 And there's a hard stage for everyone, but you might be in a season with young kids where the things that you are-

Aymann Ismail 28:12 Yeah

Dr. Becky 28:12 ... gonna bring to your kid's life, like, that's a little delayed. And then there are people when kids get older, they love the predictability and dependability. A- and then the, the older years are so hard, and you might be like, "Oh man," like, "I'm so ready for those years," right?

Aymann Ismail 28:25 [laughs]

Dr. Becky 28:25 This kind of, kind of-

Aymann Ismail 28:26 Yeah. Or maybe I'll feel differently when I'm at those years.

Dr. Becky 28:28 Yeah.

Aymann Ismail 28:29 But right now, it's like my, I, I, I guess I should say my, my oldest is four-

Dr. Becky 28:33 Yeah

Aymann Ismail 28:33 ... and my younger is three.

Dr. Becky 28:35 Yeah.

Aymann Ismail 28:35 Well, he's, I, I should stop saying four. He's gonna turn five in, like, a couple weeks. So five and three and a half.

Dr. Becky 28:40 Yeah.

Aymann Ismail 28:42 I can't do things like, I like going to events like soccer games or basketball games or hockey games. So many of those things start at 7:00, and their bedtime is 8:00.

Dr. Becky 28:50 Yep.

Aymann Ismail 28:50 So it just feels like it's, it's, I can't do that.

Dr. Becky 28:52 Yeah.

Aymann Ismail 28:52 But maybe one day I could just, you know, it's like, it's a school night, who cares? Am I gonna screw my kid up for, like, forever-

Dr. Becky 28:59 No

Aymann Ismail 28:59 ... by doing that?

Dr. Becky 28:59 I have to say-

Aymann Ismail 29:00 I don't think so

Dr. Becky 29:00 ... I love that for both of you. And as someone who really has identified as someone who's, like, pretty predictable, and I like that, I see how much more adaptable my youngest, my youngest one is.

Aymann Ismail 29:14 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky 29:14 'Cause, like, you know, when you're the youngest of three, you're just brought along for things-

Aymann Ismail 29:18 Yeah

Dr. Becky 29:18 ... right? And so I wish, like, one of my worst moments in early parenthood was not going to lunch where my friends were and just bring the stroller along.

Aymann Ismail 29:26 Mm.

Dr. Becky 29:26 I was so worried about, oh, it's, it's gonna mess up the nap.

Aymann Ismail 29:29 Right.

Dr. Becky 29:29 And if it messes up this nap, it's gonna mess up this and then that, you know?

Aymann Ismail 29:31 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 29:31 It's like-

Aymann Ismail 29:31 Yeah, yeah

Dr. Becky 29:32 ... and I wish someone had said, "You know what? It's gonna mess up the nap. I'm not even pre- I'm not gonna tell you it's not. It will mess up the nap, and that will be better for him and you."

Aymann Ismail 29:39 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky 29:39 Because you will learn a little spontaneity and change in routine-

Aymann Ismail 29:43 Right

Dr. Becky 29:43 ... doesn't kill you, right? So yes, I love that basketball game for you guys at 8:00 PM.

Aymann Ismail 29:48 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky 29:48 I'm, I'm signing off.

Aymann Ismail 29:49 We should do it?

Dr. Becky 29:49 Even though you didn't ask my permission, I'm signing-

Aymann Ismail 29:51 We should try it?

Dr. Becky 29:52 ... you 100%. Okay, the last thing I wanted to bring back is I wanna know for everyone l- I, I wonder if people are, who are listening are wondering this, 'cause I'm wondering this. How are you figuring out how to be so emotionally present for your kids when you, you don't have that in your bones? Not, like, a capacity-

Aymann Ismail 30:12 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky 30:12 ... but just in terms of what was actually delivered to you.

Aymann Ismail 30:16 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky 30:16 So h- how are you doing that? Like, what's the how?

Aymann Ismail 30:21 That's a v- that's a question I hadn't really considered. Uh, I, I... This is gonna sound funny, but I shared a room with my sister.

Dr. Becky 30:30 Huh. Yeah.

Aymann Ismail 30:31 [laughs]

Dr. Becky 30:32 No, that, that doesn't sound funny at all.

Aymann Ismail 30:33 No, but I read a study about how if you spent a lot of time with, like, your, your sister-

Dr. Becky 30:37 Yeah

Aymann Ismail 30:37 ... that actually develops you a lot emotionally as a boy.

Dr. Becky 30:41 Interesting.

Aymann Ismail 30:41 So, uh, I sh- I s- we had a, I had a bunk bed with my sister my whole life until she went to college, and we're still best friends, and we see each other, like, every week.

Dr. Becky 30:50 Yes.

Aymann Ismail 30:50 So maybe that's credit to her.

Dr. Becky 30:52 Does it feel like what you're saying as you were talking about, "I want to be a very different father. I want to be emotionally present"-

Aymann Ismail 30:57 Yeah

Dr. Becky 30:57 ... what I missed or didn't think to ask is, did you have some of those emotionally close experiences with other people?

Aymann Ismail 31:03 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 31:03 And it sounds like you, you were like-

Aymann Ismail 31:04 I had, uh-

Dr. Becky 31:05 ... you were embedded. [laughs]

Aymann Ismail 31:05 Yeah. I had two older brothers and an older sister.

Dr. Becky 31:08 Uh-huh.

Aymann Ismail 31:08 And my older sister was very nurturing and protective-

Dr. Becky 31:12 Yeah

Aymann Ismail 31:12 ... and didn't punish me for having feelings, and was always the person to, like, calm things down and ask me what I was really trying to say when I was having, like, these emotional outbursts.

Dr. Becky 31:21 Mm.

Aymann Ismail 31:22 And that helped a lot.

Dr. Becky 31:23 Wow.

Aymann Ismail 31:23 You know? And she's, uh, yeah, she, she saved my life many, many times, like physically and emotionally. There was, like, one time as a photojournalist, I was in Egypt, and I was, uh, like, trying to document the, the, the very first election in Egyptian history, where they were having, like, a democratic election. And there was, like, all this politics and this, the, this organization called the Muslim Brotherhood that had been illegal for, like, 60 years was having a protest, and I went down there, and I was taking pictures, and they accused me of being a spy, and they took me. They were gonna, like, do something to me.

Dr. Becky 31:54 Wow. Yeah.

Aymann Ismail 31:55 And then my sister come with her hijab flying behind her head like a, like a superhero cape, like-

Dr. Becky 32:00 Wow

Aymann Ismail 32:00 ... got me out. Sh- you know what she told them? She was like, "There's photos on that camera that you took with me not wearing a hijab, and so if you look at those, you're a pervert." And they were like, "Oh, well, no, we're, we're obviously, we're very good people, so we're just gonna give this back to you." And I was like, "Oh, you smart."

Dr. Becky 32:15 Wow.

Aymann Ismail 32:15 You smart.

Dr. Becky 32:16 Badass.

Aymann Ismail 32:16 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 32:17 Wow.

Aymann Ismail 32:18 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky 32:18 Respectfully, a badass.

Aymann Ismail 32:19 Respectfully.

Dr. Becky 32:20 [laughs]

Dr. Becky 32:21 Um, okay, looking back, what, what would you say to the version of you about to become a father in those couple weeks, or maybe to the person listening to this who's about to be in that stage?

Aymann Ismail 32:33 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky 32:33 You know, not, it doesn't, not just pure advice, but just, yeah, like, what, what's helpful to hear?

Aymann Ismail 32:38 Hmm. I mean, other than listen to this sh- show?

Dr. Becky 32:41 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Aymann Ismail 32:41 Okay, okay, okay. Uh, I would say, uh, as often as you can, write it down because-

Dr. Becky 32:48 Ah

Aymann Ismail 32:48 ... one of the things, the, one of the first things you lose is total control of how you're perceiving things and how, like, how you control yourself. It just is out the window. That's the first thing you lose. It just becomes so raw and so visceral, and you just become a different person in those, like, first couple months.

Dr. Becky 33:06 Yeah.

Aymann Ismail 33:06 And so one of the things that I really benefited from most was just journaling.

Dr. Becky 33:11 Yes.

Aymann Ismail 33:11 And as corny as it sounds, you really get a chance to just come back into your body and see how you're responding to things and give yourself an honest critique of how things are going.

Dr. Becky 33:20 Yeah.

Aymann Ismail 33:20 So, uh, I would say that's basically as close as you can get to therapy with-

Dr. Becky 33:25 Yeah

Aymann Ismail 33:25 ... with it being just you and yourself and a notepad. [gentle music]

Dr. Becky 33:36 I have a feeling you felt like Aymann at different times. Maybe you also have struggled to reconcile how you can take parts of your pre-child life and incorporate them in your post-child life, even if they don't feel as good. Maybe you have felt resentful of a partner who seemingly has more freedom or really does have more freedom than you. Maybe you have moments where you think about the parent you had, the parent you want to be, and you're trying to figure out how to close that gap. There were so many gems in today's episode. Like, I actually am going to take so many things we talked about and implement them in my own life, and I'm guessing you're also thinking about the nuggets throughout. And so I wanna let you know I'm putting something together, maybe it's for you. It's also just written down for me, um, the top five things couples need to know about the first months of early parenthood. I'm going to put a link to that in the show notes, and I think it's a really great thing to go to to talk about with your partner because given it's a resource from me, you can a little bit make me the bad guy. You can say, "Hey, let's look at this thing Dr. Becky and Aymann Ismail put together, and let's just talk about it. What resonates? What doesn't?" When you have something to look at together, you're much less likely to be against each other because now you're on the same team gazing in the same direction. I also have to say that this conversation resonated so much because it's exactly what we're doing at Good Inside Baby. I think the thing about Good Inside Baby that I'm so proud of, and probably comes out of anger, is that parents need the emotional preparation. We need to know how to reconcile how we're feeling. We need to know how to actually prioritize our relationship. We need to figure out how to communicate effectively when things are unknown, and we have to call an audible, and that's what we are actually doing in the Good Inside Membership and Good Inside Baby app. So yes, lactation guidance, sleep guidance, growth tracking, all the things, but I think the thing that's really different and frankly revolutionary is I think it'll end up helping you and your partnership maybe even more than it helps your baby, and that's saying a lot because holy moly is it gonna help your baby. If you have a story you wanna share with other new parents, something maybe we wanna talk about on Rattled, I would really, really love to hear from you. You can email podcast@goodinside.com to reach us. And now let's end the way we always do. Put your feet on the ground, place a hand on your heart, and let's remind ourselves even as we struggle on the outside, we remain good inside. I believe in you. You've got this. [gentle music]