“I’m Bored!” What Parents Should Do Instead of Entertaining Their Kids | Dr. Becky Lizzie Assa

Dr. Becky 0:00 I'm bored. Mom, I'm so bored. Dad, there's nothing to do. It's so boring. Okay. You are not alone if this is so triggering, but also relatively common. And yes, our kids are bored more often than we were as kids, because their lives are actually so much more stimulating. So, the situation that leads them to feel bored is just so much more common because there's so much stuff, so much dopamine, so many activities all around them. I am so excited to completely reframe the discussion around boredom, because by the end of today, you're going to start seeing your kids' boredom complaints as a good thing, as a sign that you're doing this parenting thing exactly right. I have brought in Lizzie Assa for this conversation. She is an expert on independent play and boredom, and she breaks down these topics in a way that makes so much sense, but also feels totally new and relieving. This is a conversation you're going to use right away in your home. I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Good Inside. We'll be back right after this. Let's just start with maybe what boredom's about. Like, what is really happening in this moment? And when you hear a parent talk about their kid who's bored, like, where does your mind start to go?

Lizzie Assa 1:22 You know, I have to laugh because my own kids will still say to me like, "Mom, I'm bored." And every time I'm like, "Guys, [laughs] hi." Um-

Dr. Becky 1:31 Do you know me? [laughs]

Lizzie Assa 1:32 But, you know, I think the best, the thing about it is that f- as a parent, it makes us feel like, [gasps] am I doing enough?

Dr. Becky 1:40 Mm.

Lizzie Assa 1:42 And, you know, my real goal is to really reframe that for parents, of this is a good thing. This is a good thing, and when you lean into it, it's not just about independent play. It's about relationship, understanding who your kid is, what lights them up-

Dr. Becky 1:58 Mm

Lizzie Assa 1:58 ... what are they grappling with. And when we reserve that space for boredom, and we, as the adult, feel anchored and okay with boredom, it lets our kids feel safe in boredom.

Dr. Becky 2:09 When kids complain about being bored, most parents have an immediate thought, "I'm doing something wrong. I'm not doing enough." Or are you kind of saying like, "Ugh, this is my problem to solve. Boredom is a problem to solve," versus... Give me the versus, versus what's it-

Lizzie Assa 2:25 Well, you know, I think in today's culture, we see it as our job to kind of optimize childhood, to make sure we are giving our kids the opportunities that maybe we didn't have, right?

Dr. Becky 2:36 Mm.

Lizzie Assa 2:36 We are setting them up for, you know, this enrichment, this, you know, this team sport or whatever, to give them that leg up, right?

Dr. Becky 2:45 Mm.

Lizzie Assa 2:46 And for me, I really think about it the opposite way, right? I really think about leaving space for boredom as that's the thing that is giving my child the opportunity and the leg up.

Dr. Becky 3:00 So, i- is what you're saying, okay, my kid says, "I'm bored," maybe parents are thinking it's true. When they say that, it feels like an alarm bell.

Lizzie Assa 3:06 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 3:06 And the only reason something's an alarm bell is if it's a problem to solve. But you're almost saying, Lizzie, there's something, like, positive when your kid says, "I'm bored". Maybe you're doing something very right as a parent. Like, do I pat myself on the back a little now?

Lizzie Assa 3:20 You do.

Dr. Becky 3:20 Okay.

Lizzie Assa 3:20 I do.

Dr. Becky 3:20 So walk me through that. Yeah.

Lizzie Assa 3:21 Yeah, I do, because to me, it means, okay, like, I see it as my job, and the, for the parents that I work with, to schedule in that downtime for play and rest in the same way. And I'm not saying don't sign your kid up for soccer. Don't sign your kid up for the enrichment that they love. But I am saying reserve that time to be bored, to play, to rest, with the same ferocity that you do for the lessons, right?

Dr. Becky 3:51 Yeah, yeah.

Lizzie Assa 3:52 And so when I do h- when your kid does come to you with, "I'm bored," to me, that says, "You, Becky, great job."

Dr. Becky 3:59 Yeah.

Lizzie Assa 3:59 Like, you reserved the time, right?

Dr. Becky 4:01 A- and I think that matters so much, 'cause anyone listening, even that simple reframe makes a big difference. We're always unconsciously looking for signs that we're doing a good job as a parent.

Lizzie Assa 4:11 Of course.

Dr. Becky 4:11 And if you actually think of "I'm bored" as one of those signs [laughs] i- it's, it's harder to be triggered by it. Even if you don't know what to do next, you stop it from being a problem to solve, right?

Lizzie Assa 4:23 Yes, and it is. You know, it is triggering. It is still triggering for me, and a- I research and study and wrote a book about the benefits of boredom, and still, I can get that feeling of [gasps] should I have signed them up for that extra thing?

Dr. Becky 4:36 Yes.

Lizzie Assa 4:37 All their friends are doing this, and I'm-

Dr. Becky 4:38 Mm

Lizzie Assa 4:39 ... and I'm not. You know? So I get it. I get it.

Dr. Becky 4:41 Or do I need to now be the originator of ideas for my kid? A- and by the way, it's probably one of the reasons we go to bed so exhausted and resentful of our parenting, 'cause, like, w- we have almost outsourced our kids' creative [laughs] abilities to being our responsibility.

Lizzie Assa 4:56 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky 4:56 'Cause ac- okay, I guess I'll, I have to, I have to give them this activity, or I need to come up with the idea constantly on a treadmill.

Lizzie Assa 5:02 Yep. But, you know, I think it, when we think back to, to, you know, we're about the same age, and when we go back and think about our own childho- childhoods-

Dr. Becky 5:12 Mm-hmm

Lizzie Assa 5:12 ... you know, there was time, right, to just kind of wander, to play. Our parents didn't see it as their job to entertain us. Like, they were interested in us, sure, but, but it wasn't all-encompassing to them.

Dr. Becky 5:25 Yep.

Lizzie Assa 5:26 Right?

Dr. Becky 5:26 Yep.

Lizzie Assa 5:26 And so we had time and the repetition to learn how to play, to get really good at being in charge of our own long Saturday afternoons.

Dr. Becky 5:38 Mm.

Lizzie Assa 5:38 No one was saying to us, "We have this club sport, and it's three hours away, and this, we have this here." That wasn't happening, right?

Dr. Becky 5:47 And 13 birthday parties on Saturday.

Lizzie Assa 5:49 And 13 birthday parties.

Dr. Becky 5:49 I'm not sure how you can eat pizza and cake that many times, but you can.

Lizzie Assa 5:52 You know, and so we had time-

Dr. Becky 5:54 Yeah

Lizzie Assa 5:54 ... to practice playing and get really good at it.

Dr. Becky 5:57 Yes.

Lizzie Assa 5:58 And now I want parents to give kids back that childhood, give them back that time.

Dr. Becky 6:03 And, and I guess the other thing versus our childhoods is what I often think is the un- Said part of the discussion around boredom, and screens, and independent play is our tolerance for our kids whining.

Lizzie Assa 6:16 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky 6:17 It has to be less than our parents, because we're on our phones all the- We're not bored that much.

Lizzie Assa 6:21 Mm-mm.

Dr. Becky 6:21 I'm always like, "Well, what..."

Lizzie Assa 6:23 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky 6:23 "I can do ding, ding, ding-

Lizzie Assa 6:24 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky 6:24 ... and find such pleasure," right? So I'm less tolerant of my kids' discomfort.

Lizzie Assa 6:29 Of course.

Dr. Becky 6:30 Right?

Lizzie Assa 6:30 And there's just so many more options available to us-

Dr. Becky 6:33 Mm-hmm

Lizzie Assa 6:33 ... as parents, right?

Dr. Becky 6:34 Yes.

Lizzie Assa 6:34 I mean, I imagine saying to my mom as a kid, "I'm bored," and I don't think that even, like, registered to her. [laughs]

Dr. Becky 6:41 [laughs] "What am I gonna do about that?"

Lizzie Assa 6:42 Right. Like-

Dr. Becky 6:43 Yeah

Lizzie Assa 6:43 ... that's a you problem.

Dr. Becky 6:44 Yeah. Yeah. And a little bit you're reclaiming that there's something in that that's helpful. It, it is a little bit of our kid's problem. At least it's not, it's not our problem.

Lizzie Assa 6:53 It's not our problem to solve. There are ways that we can support it.

Dr. Becky 6:58 Mm.

Lizzie Assa 6:58 And I think that's also really helpful as a parent, right?

Dr. Becky 7:01 Yes.

Lizzie Assa 7:02 Because, you know, for me, when my kids come in and say, like, "I'm bored," and, you know, and I feel very confident saying, "Go be bored somewhere else," because I know that in my home I have set up what I like to call play pockets. Um, I lo- I, I know that they have, there are toys and materials. There are spaces for them to read and be comfortable. They can go outside. I'm very lucky. You know, there are ways for them to entertain themselves. They might not like it.

Dr. Becky 7:33 Mm-hmm.

Lizzie Assa 7:33 It might be uncomfortable getting from point A to point B, but I know I've done my job. You know, have you eaten? Yes. Okay. Have we connected today? Okay, yes. Are there options available to you for you to make into what you need? Yes. Well, once those things are met, in my mind, I'm like, "Okay, now this really is-

Dr. Becky 7:55 Mm

Lizzie Assa 7:55 ... like, a you problem to figure out."

Dr. Becky 7:57 Yeah. Okay, I wanna go through those, some of those things. I actually wanna start with the last thing. Tell me about the difference between, as a parent, I'm hearing you say this, "Have I done my job of kind of making sure there's things set up that you could use?" The difference between that and, I don't know, doing the activity, or being in charge of delivering the fun. Can you differentiate those?

Lizzie Assa 8:19 Absolutely, because when I say, you know, "Are there things for them to do," I do not mean a craft, or a project, or a new toy-

Dr. Becky 8:27 Mm

Lizzie Assa 8:27 ... that I am now gonna sit with you and do, right? [laughs] I do, I mean actually the opposite of that, right?

Dr. Becky 8:32 Yeah.

Lizzie Assa 8:32 Because I think what happens for a lot of parents is they're like, "Okay, play, independent play. I need to set up this beautiful sensory bin," or, "We are gonna make this project that I saw on Instagram and everyone in the family looked so happy doing it together." And then we go to do it in reality, and what happens? Everyone's grumpy. The ki- You have now spent time, money, energy. You got excited-

Dr. Becky 8:57 Yeah

Lizzie Assa 8:57 ... and your kid engages for two minutes.

Dr. Becky 8:59 Yeah.

Lizzie Assa 8:59 And then they're bored again-

Dr. Becky 9:00 Yeah

Lizzie Assa 9:00 ... and you're burnt out.

Dr. Becky 9:01 Yes, and have less money, because-

Lizzie Assa 9:03 And, and then-

Dr. Becky 9:03 ... you just spent all this money

Lizzie Assa 9:04 ... you're like, "See? I, my kid can't play."

Dr. Becky 9:06 That's exactly right.

Lizzie Assa 9:07 Right? When really, for me, when I think about, you know, setting up the environment for play, it means are there materials that reflect their life?

Dr. Becky 9:16 Mm.

Lizzie Assa 9:16 Things that are interesting to them, right?

Dr. Becky 9:18 Mm.

Lizzie Assa 9:19 So, you know, if you have a child who, say, is really into, I don't know, trucks.

Dr. Becky 9:25 Mm-hmm.

Lizzie Assa 9:26 Are there trucks around, you know? Are there a few truck books? Are there, you know... Did we connect today? Maybe, you know, maybe I went to the supermarket with them, but instead of just, like, running through my to-do list in my head on the way there, I pointed out a couple trucks in the car on the way there, right?

Dr. Becky 9:41 Mm-hmm.

Lizzie Assa 9:42 Said, "Wow, buddy," like, "Look at that one. What do you think about that one? What do you notice about that one?" Right?

Dr. Becky 9:47 Mm-hmm.

Lizzie Assa 9:47 So we're putting them i- as the expert in their interest.

Dr. Becky 9:50 Mm.

Lizzie Assa 9:51 Okay? So then, later, when they're bored, they have materials. You know, they have some toy trucks, or some toy books, or maybe some crayons and paper. Maybe they like to draw trucks. You know, whatever it is. Maybe they live in New York City and they can look out the window and draw the trucks they see.

Dr. Becky 10:06 Mm-hmm.

Lizzie Assa 10:06 They get to decide that, right?

Dr. Becky 10:08 Yeah.

Lizzie Assa 10:09 Because if you're sitting there saying, "Today we're gonna play about trucks, and we're gonna make this project that I saw online. And first we're gonna glue this. Nope, do it this way," that's, that's not them independent playing, right? That's, that's you just teaching them maybe a skill, but that's not how we're supporting boredom.

Dr. Becky 10:27 And my guess is it doesn't give the parent the thing that they need over time, which is some amount of time when your kid can do something independently, but they're not on a screen.

Lizzie Assa 10:36 Yes.

Dr. Becky 10:36 And this is not about screens, and I think you and I are similar-

Lizzie Assa 10:38 Yeah

Dr. Becky 10:38 ... to the screen thing. That's fine, but I think every parent I know says, "It feels like either I have to give my kid an activity, or they're on a screen," when what I love what you talk about is independent play is, is a way to get out of that binary.

Lizzie Assa 10:52 Yes.

Dr. Becky 10:52 Right? [laughs]

Lizzie Assa 10:53 Yes.

Dr. Becky 10:53 So say more about that.

Lizzie Assa 10:54 And, you know, I think so much about how your work focuses so much on relationship building, right? Like, at the basis of everything, you're coming back to their relationship. And something I really want parents to understand about play, and independent play, is that when you support your child in play, and you value their play, and you take time to watch them and observe them in their play, you're gonna learn so much about, like, who is my child? What's interesting to them? What are they grappling with?

Dr. Becky 11:23 Mm. Yeah, I have ideas.

Lizzie Assa 11:25 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 11:25 I have things to teach other people.

Lizzie Assa 11:27 And that builds confidence-

Dr. Becky 11:29 Mm

Lizzie Assa 11:29 ... and it gives them the confidence they need as a little one, you know, to start playing. But then as they're older, you know, I was recently having a conversation with someone who was saying, you know, college kids are really grappling with, you know, making small decisions. They're calling their parents for every reason. Like, you know, all of these things. And, and that makes me think back to I wonder if those kids had time to play, because I think that kind of resilience is really built on the living room floor at four.

Dr. Becky 12:00 I, I, I know you and I see similarly about this, but I wanna, I wanna pull that out a little bit more, because sometimes that leap isn't so obvious-

Lizzie Assa 12:07 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky 12:07 ... to other people. Okay, so it's a kid playing with trucks, or maybe a kid who likes to draw freeform.

Lizzie Assa 12:12 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 12:12 Whatever it is.

Lizzie Assa 12:14 Mm.

Dr. Becky 12:14 And then we're talking about a college kid who can decide which class to register when they can only pick one, or, you know, wants to know, "Do I talk to my teacher about this, or, or do I wait?" Whatever the decisions are. Zoom out from what's happening on the floor that you share often with parents about where play is play, but also it's so much more.

Lizzie Assa 12:34 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 12:34 So can you, can you just explain that a little more?

Lizzie Assa 12:36 Yeah, I would love to. So, you know, our kids, especially, I mean, I think about, you know, the parents whose kids are two, three, four, five, like the ones who are really still learning those independent play skills, right? Think of they don't have a lot of autonomy in their life, right? But play, play is a place where kids can create their own world, right? It is one of the only places that they get to make the decisions. They get to decide what happens and when in the game, right?

Dr. Becky 13:06 Yep.

Lizzie Assa 13:06 And oftentime, as parents, we feel it's our job to play with them, and, and instead of playing with them, we become the entertainer, right?

Dr. Becky 13:15 Mm.

Lizzie Assa 13:16 Suddenly we're calling the shots. We're making the duck do this. And instead, I really wanna help parents step back from that. And I'm not saying don't play with your kid. I think that's like a huge misnomer, right? You can play with your kid, but think of your role as less entertainer and more mirror, more person who says like-

Dr. Becky 13:36 Mm

Lizzie Assa 13:37 ... "This is your world."

Dr. Becky 13:38 Yeah.

Lizzie Assa 13:39 "You get to make the call. I'm just here reflecting that back to you."

Dr. Becky 13:42 Mm-hmm.

Lizzie Assa 13:43 Right? And that's how our kids build those decision-making skills. They become people who are like, "I have ideas that matter. I can make a mistake, and the world doesn't explode. It's okay," right? And the more they can do that over time, over years, they learn that resilience. It's okay to make a mistake.

Dr. Becky 14:05 Yeah. So I'm gonna get it one more level concrete, and tell me this is, you know, an example that resonates. So I'm building with blocks, Magna-Tiles, whatever it is, as a kid, and I think often as a parent, we watch, and we think, "Ooh, steady that foundation. It's gonna fall." And now, listen, anyone who says that, let me just be clear, you've not traumatized your kid. Your kid's gonna be fine.

Lizzie Assa 14:25 [laughs]

Dr. Becky 14:25 Okay? Like, it is not too late, and it's not too late because it's no big deal. We've all said those things, okay? So we're talking about patterns, not-

Lizzie Assa 14:31 Yes

Dr. Becky 14:32 ... right?

Lizzie Assa 14:32 Yes.

Dr. Becky 14:32 And we're actually talking about giving parents freedom to do so much less, okay? This is a good thing for parents, and it's never too late to experiment with a little shift. But I think about the difference between that versus either saying nothing, I don't know, the tower falls, my kid even gets upset, and I say like, "Ugh, tower fell." Or I, I usually do this thing around my kids called, like, the wondering face. And I'm like, "I wonder why that fell. Hmm." Almost I felt like it created a, like, wonder container, but I didn't do the wonder filling of the container. I don't know. Does that make sense?

Lizzie Assa 15:12 Yes.

Dr. Becky 15:12 I don't know.

Lizzie Assa 15:12 And you, you didn't do the work.

Dr. Becky 15:14 Mm-hmm.

Lizzie Assa 15:14 You didn't do the work. You just put out the scaffolding-

Dr. Becky 15:17 Yes

Lizzie Assa 15:17 ... for the work.

Dr. Becky 15:18 Yes.

Lizzie Assa 15:19 Right? And so, you know, oftentimes, like, we can get in there and be like, "Well, if you just do it this way or build it up here," again, we're going back to being that entertainer. We're, we're reflecting it back on me.

Dr. Becky 15:29 Yeah.

Lizzie Assa 15:29 But over time, when you have a kid, right, who can build the tower, it falls, then they get to decide, "Am I going to build it again? Am I going to melt down?" Because that's fine, too.

Dr. Becky 15:46 Mm-hmm.

Lizzie Assa 15:46 You know? Like, that's allowed.

Dr. Becky 15:48 Yeah.

Lizzie Assa 15:48 It's disappointing.

Dr. Becky 15:49 Yeah.

Lizzie Assa 15:49 You know? Am I gonna change it? And maybe I would say to them later, you know, when they go into build, "Hey, I remember yesterday when you were working and that fell. That was so tricky." You know, and again, I'm not gonna say, "It's because, you know, you did this and this and this wrong. Try it this way." I'm not gonna do that.

Dr. Becky 16:07 Mm.

Lizzie Assa 16:07 I'm just gonna let them think back to that.

Dr. Becky 16:09 Yep.

Lizzie Assa 16:09 Right? They got through it. It wasn't the, you know, and, and maybe today they're gonna build it a different way.

Dr. Becky 16:15 Yeah.

Lizzie Assa 16:15 Or maybe they're not ready to build it a different way.

Dr. Becky 16:17 Yeah.

Lizzie Assa 16:17 Because play gives our kids an opportunity to keep repeating something until they've mastered it.

Dr. Becky 16:23 Mm. Mm-hmm.

Lizzie Assa 16:25 They can keep coming at it in a way that makes sense to them.

Dr. Becky 16:28 I wanna actually do something where we think about kids at different ages, okay? So this is a great example, the difference between saying to a kid when they're, I don't know, two, three, four, five, "Here's how you build a tower taller," versus, "I, I wonder what you could do," or, "Ooh, I wonder if something isn't as sturdy as it needs to be to make a tower." I always say it, it's helpful to, like, lead kids a little bit to the well-

Lizzie Assa 16:50 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky 16:50 ... but let them have this, like, aha moment, 'cause they feel so proud.

Lizzie Assa 16:53 Yep.

Dr. Becky 16:53 But let's say now an older kid. Like, I'd love to trace this, this difference between scaffolding and doing the work for our kids, 'cause it really relates to boredom. So where, where do you see this? Give me an example where you see this, whether it's in play or maybe independent tasks, remembering the water bottle. That's like our four, two, three, four, five-year-old example. What about, let's say we now have kids in elementary school, right?

Lizzie Assa 17:16 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky 17:17 Where do you see these kind of decisions almost coming up-

Lizzie Assa 17:19 Yeah

Dr. Becky 17:19 ... and to lay out for parents, like, one pathway and another?

Lizzie Assa 17:22 Yeah. I mean, you know, when I think about things like, like I was saying, you know, kids are in college, and they're struggling to make a decision, right? And I'm saying, like, "This isn't really a college problem. This is a play problem," right? Because when kids have the opportunity to play a lot, they learn, "I can, I can start without someone telling me what to do."

Dr. Becky 17:42 Mm.

Lizzie Assa 17:43 And, like, that alone, like, that right there is a really important skill.

Dr. Becky 17:48 Yeah. Starting without someone telling them what to do. I mean, it's something I think in the workplace-

Lizzie Assa 17:54 Yeah

Dr. Becky 17:54 ... is a dream employee. Like, you know, not having someone who's waiting to be told what to do-

Lizzie Assa 17:59 Yeah

Dr. Becky 17:59 ... but looks around and is like, "Oh, I see an opportunity."

Lizzie Assa 18:01 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky 18:01 So again, forget just college. This is a skill-

Lizzie Assa 18:04 Yeah

Dr. Becky 18:04 ... for life. Okay. So let's say it's my five, six, seven-year-old now. They come home. They have a day where they don't have an activity, and they're like, "I don't know what to do. I'm bored."

Lizzie Assa 18:13 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 18:13 How, show me two paths.

Lizzie Assa 18:14 Sure.

Dr. Becky 18:14 One where you're kind of doing the decision for your kid, and one where-

Lizzie Assa 18:18 Yeah

Dr. Becky 18:18 ... you're setting your kid up to be able to be someone who-

Lizzie Assa 18:21 Yeah

Dr. Becky 18:21 ... can make those decisions.

Lizzie Assa 18:22 I mean, I understand a lot of times when kids say, "I'm bored," our immediate thing is to start listing. It, it's either, "You have all those toys. You have all those toys, and now you're gonna tell me you're bored," right? So there's that, like, resentment thing. Okay? Or we're gonna say, "Okay, well, we could do this, we could do this, we can go here, we can do that."

Dr. Becky 18:41 Yep.

Lizzie Assa 18:41 "Yep, we can do that." Or they are gonna do that thing, right, where they say, "I- then I'm gonna give you some chores." You know?

Dr. Becky 18:49 [laughs] Like a punishment.

Lizzie Assa 18:50 We've all kind of done that.

Dr. Becky 18:51 Yep.

Lizzie Assa 18:51 Like, I've definitely done that.

Dr. Becky 18:51 I'll give you things to do.

Lizzie Assa 18:52 Yeah, I'll give you things to do.

Dr. Becky 18:53 [laughs]

Lizzie Assa 18:54 Um, but I, you know, I think instead, if we can go back to that scaffolding and saying, like, "Hmm, you are bored, and you do have a whole day ahead of you. You're not really used to that. Let's think back for a minute. What's something you did last time you were bored? I remember on Saturday when you were building, and you were, you know, creating this structure, and you were really upset to stop building because we had to leave for the birthday party."

Dr. Becky 19:20 Hmm.

Lizzie Assa 19:20 "Do you want me to help you think through what you were working on? Maybe you'll wanna do that again, or maybe you'll come up with a new idea."

Dr. Becky 19:27 Yeah.

Lizzie Assa 19:28 I really like to think of, you know, "I'm bored, I don't know what to do" more as a bid for connection-

Dr. Becky 19:34 Hmm

Lizzie Assa 19:34 ... and less as give me something to do.

Dr. Becky 19:37 Love that. So if you lead with a connection, "Ugh, I hate when I'm bored, too," or "Ugh, I have those times at the end of the day," or "Ugh, that's a hard feeling," and then you kind of wonder with your kid, or, "Do you want me to help you remember?" you're more setting them up to be the type of person who can take initiative-

Lizzie Assa 19:53 Right

Dr. Becky 19:53 ... rather than when you see the "I'm bored" after school as my problem to fix. I think this is something that happens to parents a lot. We lock ourselves into the roles we don't want. I don't want my kid to always come to me. It's so annoying, right? Like, they're always coming to me. Why can't they be more independent?

Lizzie Assa 20:08 And it is. It is annoying.

Dr. Becky 20:09 And it is annoying.

Lizzie Assa 20:10 [laughs]

Dr. Becky 20:10 But sometimes I think there's a reality check. It's like, well, every time my kid is bored, I do fix it for them. So- [laughs]

Lizzie Assa 20:16 So I-

Dr. Becky 20:16 I guess, yeah, I guess I am locking myself-

Lizzie Assa 20:19 Yeah

Dr. Becky 20:19 ... into being entertainer of the year, even though I'm kind of resentful of being-

Lizzie Assa 20:23 Yes

Dr. Becky 20:23 ... entertainer for the year.

Lizzie Assa 20:25 And I think, like, that word resentful is actually such an important piece in this.

Dr. Becky 20:29 Mm-hmm.

Lizzie Assa 20:29 Right? Because the other piece for parents is, you know, that when you are the entertainer, you are on 24/7, and when you remove that job from your description, you actually have a lot more time back for yourself, so that you can show up as the person you wanna be. And also, you feel more connected to your child. You really do. You know, oftentimes people will say, "Gosh, you know, Lizzie, I, I did everything you said to do, and my kid, my kid actually loves playing alone now, and I feel kind of guilty," right? And I think when that happens, they're missing that piece of reconnecting after, right?

Dr. Becky 21:09 Hmm.

Lizzie Assa 21:10 And so really taking that time. Like, what did my kid end up doing when they were bored? And this is, you know, great at any age, is to go back and say, at the end of the day, "Hey, remember this morning when you came to me? You were so bored. You didn't know what to do. We thought it through. I saw that you built this. I would love to hear more about that when you're ready." You know, we're not saying, "What did you build?"

Dr. Becky 21:32 Yep.

Lizzie Assa 21:32 "Show me..." We're not... "Whenever you're ready" or, "I heard those baby dolls crying in the playroom. I wonder what they were sad about."

Dr. Becky 21:38 Hmm.

Lizzie Assa 21:39 You know, we're not questioning them that they have to tell you, but we just want them to know, like, you noticed. "I noticed you playing," right?

Dr. Becky 21:46 Yeah.

Lizzie Assa 21:47 And so then we're doing two things. One, we're saying, "Your play really matters. I notice you, your, and your ideas, and also, you've got this. Like, you did that. You had a problem. We thought it through together, and you, and you worked it out."

Dr. Becky 22:01 Yeah.

Lizzie Assa 22:01 And that really reinforces to them for the next time, and the next time. And then they really become-

Dr. Becky 22:07 Mm

Lizzie Assa 22:07 ... that kid who's like, "I don't wanna go with you to wherever, because I've got a great idea to play with my Magna-Tiles." They become those kids who race home after school with a really good idea of something that they need paper and tape to work out.

Dr. Becky 22:21 Yep. Yeah. And I'm thinking of as our kids get older, and I know you have older kids. I've, you know, kind of right in the middle, where I think about, you know, our kids always forgetting their water bottle, and these patterns, there are so many extensions of them that don't explicitly have to do with play, and the difference between every day, "Here's your water bottle. Here's your water bottle," even though I'm thinking, "I don't wanna be my kid's water bottle remember when he's 18," right? Even though I keep doing that, versus, "Hey, you keep forgetting your water bottle. I wonder what you would need on the wall or somewhere in our house to remember." And I think that binary is something you, y- you explain so well around boredom and play and these skills, where it's really the binary of fixing our kid's problem or creating a container for them to solve their own problems, and the benefits of that. Like, when you're no longer your kid's water bottle rememberer, you do have more time to talk to them about different things, 'cause you're, [laughs] you're not running around your house and depleted all the time.

Lizzie Assa 23:20 And you end up with a kid who knows deep down, "I can be in charge of my water bottle."

Dr. Becky 23:27 Yes.

Lizzie Assa 23:27 "And if I forget, and if... You know, it's still okay."

Dr. Becky 23:31 Yes.

Lizzie Assa 23:32 Like, it's not the end of the world, or maybe my teacher is annoyed at me because I forgot my violin, and that's okay, too, because I can learn how to advocate for myself.

Dr. Becky 23:41 Yeah.

Lizzie Assa 23:42 And it's not in the way of saying to your kid, "Well, you forgot, so now you deal with it." It's not like that. It's saying, like, "Gosh, you know, you did forget your violin. Ca- is there a way I can support you to remember your violin?"

Dr. Becky 23:54 Yes.

Lizzie Assa 23:54 Right?

Dr. Becky 23:55 Yes.

Lizzie Assa 23:56 And also saying, "How did you manage that?"

Dr. Becky 23:59 Yeah.

Lizzie Assa 23:59 You know, like, "What did that feel like for you?"

Dr. Becky 24:02 Yeah. Yeah.

Lizzie Assa 24:03 Right? You're in it with them. You're walking next to them, and that's what I want parents to understand about play. You walk next to them in figuring it out, but it belongs to them.

Dr. Becky 24:13 Mm.

Lizzie Assa 24:14 It's not our job to create the magic of play. That belongs to them.

Dr. Becky 24:19 A- and I think you're also saying your approach is, that's in them. It's actually in them.

Lizzie Assa 24:22 It's inherent in who they are as people.

Dr. Becky 24:25 Yeah.

Lizzie Assa 24:25 They have interests. They have a drive for autonomy. They are so creative.

Dr. Becky 24:30 Yeah. So I'm thinking about the parents listening who says, "This, okay, this, this all resonates, and my kid isn't two or five anymore, and they're constantly looking for me for entertainment. How do I, you know, how do I shift the front of the ship a little bit?"

Lizzie Assa 24:46 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky 24:46 What are some things, knowing the whining, the protests, the "you used to do this for me" is kind of coming, coming their way.

Lizzie Assa 24:53 I would be really upfront with, say, my seven-year-old, right? I am your partner in this. Like, let's figure this out together, right? Every day you keep coming home, and, you know, I'm, I work from home, and, and I'm working, and you come in, and you really want to go on the iPad, 'cause you're not sure what to do. And like, I get that, right? 'Cause sometimes when I don't know what to do, I go on my phone, right? So like, I get that. Right? So right there we're not saying like, "You're bad-

Dr. Becky 25:20 Yes

Lizzie Assa 25:20 ... for coming to me," or, "You, you should know what to do." We're not saying that. We're saying like, "I see you. I get it. Like, it happens to me, too."

Dr. Becky 25:27 Yeah.

Lizzie Assa 25:27 Right? And then I would say, "And, and I really wanna help you make a change in this, because there's a lot of afternoons that could feel really good. You have so many good ideas. There's so many important things about you that you deserve time to work on, and I wanna help you work on those, right?"

Dr. Becky 25:43 Yeah.

Lizzie Assa 25:43 "So let's think about like what kind of things would you, if you were in charge in the afternoon, what would you be doing?" You know? And really, and even if it gets like crazy and fantastical, you're not gonna jump in with, "Well, no, we can't do that becau-" You're really gonna go to that place with them.

Dr. Becky 26:00 Let them go. Mm-hmm.

Lizzie Assa 26:00 Right? Like, let them fantasize about it, because it's a window for you to see in, right? And then does that mean you have to go out and buy 50 craft kits [laughs] and say yes to the iPad? No. But it does mean that you're gonna say, "Okay, like, it sounds like you really like art, you know? And, you know, we have a lot of markers and stuff in the cabinet, but, you know, they are kinda hard to get to. And when you do try to pull down the paper, everything comes crashing down." So, you know, that is what I like to call a barrier to play, right? So for me as an adult, I'm not gonna see it as my job to go out and buy materials. I am gonna see it as my job to remove the barrier to them getting started.

Dr. Becky 26:40 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Lizzie Assa 26:40 So that might mean, "Let's try a thing. Tomorrow when you come home, I'm gonna put out on the table just like some paper and some of those markers that you got for your birthday last year, and maybe some stickers. Like, what kind of stickers do you think like we have that... You know, and I'm gonna put those out on the table and have a snack with them," right? I'm gonna connect with them-

Dr. Becky 26:58 Yeah

Lizzie Assa 26:58 ... before I ask them to do something on their own.

Dr. Becky 27:01 Yep. And so first of all, I just love that step by step. And the other thing I wanna add is your kid won't come home and say, "This is such a better afternoon than the iPad."

Lizzie Assa 27:11 No. [laughs] Yeah.

Dr. Becky 27:11 "Thank you for that setup. I love this invitation to play." They will not.

Lizzie Assa 27:14 Mm-mm.

Dr. Becky 27:15 I feel like most kids, if they're not used to that, will whine.

Lizzie Assa 27:18 They will.

Dr. Becky 27:18 Or they'll just say, "I have an idea. You could just let me be on my iPad."

Lizzie Assa 27:21 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 27:21 "What do I wanna do? Be on my iPad all day."

Lizzie Assa 27:23 Yeah.

Dr. Becky 27:23 And it's so important not to see that as a failure, but as a actually totally predictable step.

Lizzie Assa 27:29 Yes.

Dr. Becky 27:29 Right? Like, if I was in a stage of eating, like, I don't know, just Kit Kats and Reese's every day as my snack, and I was like, "I wanna make a shift. This isn't like so great for my long-term energy," whatever, and I had, I don't know, whatever else out, like I can't expect that I'd be like, "Oh, I'm so happy for these carrots and hummus." No, of course not.

Lizzie Assa 27:47 No.

Dr. Becky 27:47 Okay? We all, we all want the thing that's easiest and most dopamine-giving with the least amount of effort. It's just how our brains work.

Lizzie Assa 27:55 Yes.

Dr. Becky 27:55 And so it's a little bit, I think, of a fight, and, and just wanna normalize-

Lizzie Assa 27:59 Yes

Dr. Becky 27:59 ... that that is part of the process.

Lizzie Assa 28:01 And, and you know what? And it is our child's job to push back.

Dr. Becky 28:05 Yes.

Lizzie Assa 28:05 We want kids who push back. I want my kids, when they feel uncomfortable, to speak up, right?

Dr. Becky 28:11 Yeah.

Lizzie Assa 28:11 And sometimes that's messy and annoying and uncomfortable. But so something that I usually tell parents to do is to sort of play that out in your head, like, okay, I'm gonna take that extra 10 minutes to put out the markers and the, you know, whatever, and my kid is probably going to do it for two minutes, 'cause they're not used to this.

Dr. Becky 28:27 'Cause it's new. It's new.

Lizzie Assa 28:29 And they're practicing and they're learning, right?

Dr. Becky 28:31 Yes.

Lizzie Assa 28:32 So maybe what do they need? Maybe I should set it up next to me at my desk, right? Maybe they want, you know, I can say like, "I can't talk to you right now, but you can do your work while I'm doing mine."

Dr. Becky 28:43 Yep.

Lizzie Assa 28:44 Right? Maybe that co-regulation is gonna be something next to each other as you're learning something new. And I might even say like, "You're learning something new, and sometimes it helps to be next to someone when you're doing it. Do you wanna work next to me at my desk?"

Dr. Becky 28:56 That's exactly right. And again, does that mean the first time they're gonna do it? No, they will- You should probably do it when you have a fake meeting, knowing that your kid's gonna be poking you-

Lizzie Assa 29:05 [laughs] Yes

Dr. Becky 29:05 ... the entire time. And you're like, "Good thing I had my fake meeting today," you know, because I have to scaffold this totally new skill. One thing I want parents to think about, 'cause I think it's a big part of it when we make any shift, and I recently did this live event, uh, you know, in, in our Good Inside community where this was so powerful, okay, where I said, "When you're making a shift in your family rhythms," right, or your kind of family routines, and you kind of know your kid's gonna be upset. We all focus on then my kid freaks out. But before you tell your kid the decision, right, maybe now we're gonna do markers or, you know, instead of right to iPad, how much certainty and conviction do you have in your own decision? And do you know what the first response in the Zoom was? Zero. [laughs]

Lizzie Assa 29:45 Yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Becky 29:46 Right?

Lizzie Assa 29:46 And everyone kind of laughed.

Dr. Becky 29:47 True.

Lizzie Assa 29:47 Right? And we're always looking, you know, for confirmation that we were right, and our kids are gonna give it to us, right? So we right away are like, "See? I knew they couldn't do it."

Dr. Becky 29:55 Well, that's exactly right, and this is why I just wanna add here that anyone listening who's thinking, "That's gonna be so hard. My kid's gonna freak out. This sounds too perfect," no, you're right. Like, it's gonna be hard. Any change is hard. The thing that we don't focus on enough, I think, is we need to have conviction, not that it's gonna be easy.

Lizzie Assa 30:13 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky 30:13 We have to have conviction in a shift in family rhythms that we think it's long-term gonna be better for any one, everyone before we do it. Because if not, we're gonna say it like this. Don't you think, don't you think it's better to do markers after school? And I always picture a five-year-old being like, "Are, are, like, are you consulting me?"

Lizzie Assa 30:31 Right.

Dr. Becky 30:31 Like, am I supposed to make, am I supposed to make you feel better here? Like, and then they do freak out, in part because they're kind of being asked to do our job.

Lizzie Assa 30:39 And also, when you have a kid who's not used to a blank piece of paper and markers, like, they don't know what to do.

Dr. Becky 30:46 Yeah.

Lizzie Assa 30:46 Right? And so something that's really helpful for parents is to, before you make this shift, take a day or two and just jot down, you know, what does my kid talk about a lot? Even if it's, like, their favorite TV show-

Dr. Becky 31:00 Yeah

Lizzie Assa 31:00 ... that counts.

Dr. Becky 31:01 Yeah.

Lizzie Assa 31:01 Their favorite video game, that counts.

Dr. Becky 31:03 Right. Yeah.

Lizzie Assa 31:04 Right? And so how can I support their interest in whatever I'm offering them, right? Because that is sort of a path-

Dr. Becky 31:10 Yes

Lizzie Assa 31:11 ... and a way in, instead of just giving them something blank and saying, "Go for it," right?

Dr. Becky 31:15 Which I panic about.

Lizzie Assa 31:16 Right. So instead, I might set, you know, like, if I have a kid, parents who say, like, "Well, my kid doesn't build with blocks, and I'm not gonna sit there, you know, with these little wooden blocks," and, and I'm like, "You're right, they're not."

Dr. Becky 31:26 Right.

Lizzie Assa 31:27 They're not.

Dr. Becky 31:27 Right.

Lizzie Assa 31:28 But if you're gonna give them some wooden blocks with their favorite Bluey figures-

Dr. Becky 31:32 Yeah

Lizzie Assa 31:32 ... or something that is connected to them, something they're already thinking about-

Dr. Becky 31:36 That's right

Lizzie Assa 31:36 ... something that's important to them, and they can work those themes out in real life, that's how you're gonna hook them in, right?

Dr. Becky 31:42 That's right, and this is where the lack of rigidity is helpful. So many times what our kids are interested in, in an online game or a show, can give us insight into the very areas they can play more independently.

Lizzie Assa 31:53 Yes.

Dr. Becky 31:53 So I, I love that bridge.

Lizzie Assa 31:54 I mean, my daughter, who's 12 now, when she was little, she was obsessed with PAW Patrol, okay? I mean obsessed, right? And that didn't mean I went out and bought every PAW Patrol tower and toy and whatever, but you know what I did do? I invested in a lot of those little mini PAW Patrol figurines, and we brought those everywhere.

Dr. Becky 32:12 Yep.

Lizzie Assa 32:12 They came in the playroom, because they paired so well with her. They gave her an in.

Dr. Becky 32:17 Great.

Lizzie Assa 32:18 Right? To build.

Dr. Becky 32:19 That's right.

Lizzie Assa 32:19 To play, to draw. They gave her something to talk about when she felt awkward at a family function.

Dr. Becky 32:25 Yep.

Lizzie Assa 32:26 They gave her something to do in the restaurant when her food wasn't coming, and, you know, she was three, and so-

Dr. Becky 32:32 Yeah, wait a minute

Lizzie Assa 32:32 ... you know, a snack was a very big deal.

Dr. Becky 32:35 Yes.

Lizzie Assa 32:35 You know? And so you really wanna think, like, what is something that my kid loves? It doesn't have to be something that you see as, you know, some very important, big theme. It's literally as simple as the PAW Patrol figures.

Dr. Becky 32:48 Yes. Thank you for that. Okay, I wanna end with a rapid-fire round all around these themes.

Lizzie Assa 32:53 Okay.

Dr. Becky 32:53 You ready? Okay. People need to understand this about boredom.

Lizzie Assa 32:58 Boredom is safe, and a good thing.

Dr. Becky 33:00 Love that. What's something you've learned about yourself in your adult moments of boredom?

Lizzie Assa 33:06 Yeah. I need more of them. [laughs] I need to car- I talk a lot about other people carving out times for boredom for their kids, and as a grown-up, I need to practice what I preach.

Dr. Becky 33:17 Yeah. Thank you for the honesty.

Lizzie Assa 33:19 Yes.

Dr. Becky 33:19 A phrase, idea, belief, mantra you come back to around boredom.

Lizzie Assa 33:24 Boredom is a place where my kids can really have s- time and space to understand who they are-

Dr. Becky 33:32 Mm-hmm

Lizzie Assa 33:32 ... and feel comfortable being with themselves.

Dr. Becky 33:34 Mm. Beautiful. If every parent could remember one thing about independent play, what would it be?

Lizzie Assa 33:41 It looks different for all kids, and so many things count that you might not think do.

Dr. Becky 33:47 Great. One thing to not say to a kid who's bored, and one thing that's often helpful to say.

Lizzie Assa 33:54 Something that's helpful to say is to really reflect back to them is, "It's hard when you're not sure what to do," right? And something that's probably not helpful is listing off a bunch of activities.

Dr. Becky 34:04 Thank you.

Lizzie Assa 34:05 Thank you.

Dr. Becky 34:05 Thank you for your work, for this really important book. So excited for more parents to get it in their homes.

Lizzie Assa 34:11 Thank you for having me.

Dr. Becky 34:17 There are three main takeaways I am still thinking about from this episode, and I wanted to share them with you. Number one, tolerating our kids' boredom starts with our reaction to their boredom. I know that's hard to hear, but I always think, "Wait, that's a good thing. Change starts with something under my control." That's actually very empowering. Number two, my kid being bored is a sign I'm doing a good job as a parent. I'm sorry, can we all pat ourselves on the back for that? It's not a sign I'm not doing enough. It's a sign that I'm actually trying to protect some amount of time for my kid when they are not stimulated externally, when they are not given an activity, when they actually are trying to figure out something inside themselves in terms of their own creativity, their own ideas, their own independence. And three, play is actually a really important thing for our kids to be successful adults. Play is play, but I also love what Lizzie said, that this is where kids are building skills. It's where they're taking risks and learning how to deal with struggles. It's where they develop initiative, taking an idea and putting it into a state of action. That's amazing and will make me protect play in a very different way. Let's end the way we always do. Place your feet on the ground, place a hand on your heart, and let's remind ourselves even as we struggle on the outside, we remain good inside. I'll see you soon. [outro music]