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Melinda French Gates on Women's Health and Learning to Trust Yourself | Dr. Becky

At the top of her career, Melinda French Gates started doubting herself in meetings she'd run a hundred times before. The causes turned out to be chronic insomnia, undiagnosed perimenopause, and a habit she'd picked up years earlier of overriding her own signals. Dr. Becky sits down with Melinda, founder of Pivotal Ventures, to talk about how women learn to stop trusting themselves, and what it takes to rebuild that trust. They get into new Gallup research from Pivotal Ventures, where half of respondents who'd been pregnant said they struggled with their mental health during or after pregnancy. They also cover the "10,000 paper cuts" that teach girls and women to question their gut, and a simple phrase that helps kids trust what they notice. Plus: what Melinda's granddaughters are teaching her about "I'm not ready yet," and why perfect is creepy. Chapters 0:00 – Intro: how women learn to trust themselves (or don't) 2:21 – Meeting her daughter at the back door in yoga pants 7:41 – Half of women struggle with mental health during or after pregnancy 9:13 – Why we screen for gestational diabetes but not mental health 12:27 – Having to push to be taken seriously by doctors 14:07 – Perimenopause, insomnia, and doubting herself at work 15:23 – The "10,000 paper cuts" 17:58 – "You were right to notice that" 21:15 – Raising girls who trust themselves 23:10 – Paid family leave and what Nordic countries get right 26:32 – Empty nest and a new chapter of identity 29:15 – Learning to trust herself again 31:48 – A college relationship, Microsoft, and coming back to herself 34:00 – Her granddaughters and "I'm not ready yet" 39:35 – Good enough parenting and why perfect is creepy 41:19 – Three phrases that build self-trust in kids Thanks to Carter's, Good Inside's new Confidence Program is free for every family for the next six months. Click here to learn more. https://www.goodinside.com/program/raising-confident-capable-kids/?utm_source=podcast_gi&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=confidence_program&utm_content=shownotes_20260929 Thank you to our partners for making this episode possible: Frida: Shop Frida at Amazon, Target, and Walmart today Perelel: Use code GOODINSIDE for 20% off your first order at perelelhealth.com/GOODINSIDE Yoto: Get 15% off your order with the code DRBECKY15 at YotoPlay.com. New customers only, ends October 31, offer valid on select products only. Terms apply. Care.com: For a limited time, you can use the code BECKY35 to save 35% on a Care.com Premium Membership.**Offer applies to initial term of http://Care.com membership subscriptions. Not applicable to add-on features or non-renewing access fees or services. Expires 10/31/26. Care.com does not employ or place any caregiver. Background checks are an important start, but they have limits. Visit www.care.com/safety. #goodinside #drbecky #melindafrenchgates #womenshealth #perimenopause #maternalmentalhealth #parenting

Melinda French GatesguestDr. Becky Kennedyhost
Oct 6, 202643mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 2:21

    Intro: how women learn to trust themselves (or don't)

    1. MG

      I'm good enough

    2. BK

      I'm good enough

    3. MG

      I know myself enough. I'm worthy as I am, and I'm never gonna accept somebody else's worth put on top of me. I'm worthy as I am.

    4. BK

      I've been thinking a lot about how women learn to trust themselves, or don't, or how we start out trusting ourselves and then end up as adults not even knowing what that means to trust ourselves. Think about some of the things we hear growing up. "You're fine. Don't be so sensitive. You're so dramatic. It's not that bad. You make a big deal out of things that are just so small." None of these things are necessarily life-changing on their own. We've all said these things here or there. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about when you hear this over and over again because then any kid would start to think, "I guess I'm someone who overreacts. I guess I'm someone who doesn't read things in the right way. I guess other people are better at knowing how I feel than I am." Now, what happens to that girl when she grows up? Well, maybe she's sitting in a doctor's office and something doesn't feel right. The doctor says everything is normal or minimizes her story, and she thinks, "Well, I guess that makes sense. I've never been a good estimator of my own feelings." Or maybe she just had a baby and she's thinking, "I don't really think I'm okay," but everyone around her is saying, "Well, of course you're exhausted. This is what having a newborn is like." And again, she invalidates her own story because that's what she's learned. My guest today has spent decades thinking about women's lives and women's power and women's health. Melinda French Gates is the founder of Pivotal Ventures, and Pivotal recently released new research with Gallup about women's health in America. I wanna talk to Melinda about what they found, but also I wanna put a lens on it, around trust and how that all relates to being a mom and raising daughters and getting older and whether we figure out how to trust ourselves more, and if we do get there, how, because I kinda think that's the journey all of us are on. What happens when women learn to trust themselves?

  2. 2:21 – 7:41

    Meeting her daughter at the back door in yoga pants

    1. BK

      I wanna start with your sharing the story of your oldest daughter, Jen, meeting you at the door after work. I wanna hear it, you know.

    2. MG

      Sure.

    3. BK

      Your voice re- refresh us all.

    4. MG

      Sure. I'd driven into the garage, got out of the car, went in the back door, and I was still in my business suit from the day. And I walked in the back door, and she didn't like that the first time this happened.

    5. BK

      Hmm.

    6. MG

      Like, she just gave me the cold shoulder, and really gave me the cold shoulder for several hours. Like, I was kind of crushed. And so I learned the next time, any time I came back from a business meeting where I'd been on stage and I, you know, thought I'd done something, whatever, wonderful, it wasn't about me. And I learned I needed to put my yoga pants on and a pair of tennis shoes before I came home, and she would meet me by the back door with the caregiver with a book, and I would literally sit down-

    7. BK

      Hmm

    8. MG

      ... on the mudroom floor and read her book. I needed to be in her world.

    9. BK

      Hmm.

    10. MG

      She taught me that.

    11. BK

      Hmm.

    12. MG

      And she was little.

    13. BK

      Hmm.

    14. MG

      Little, like four.

    15. BK

      Wow. She, she kinda sees you and says, in some ways, "You're in work mode."

    16. MG

      Yes.

    17. BK

      "That, okay, that kind of happens away from me. I wanna connect to you, not with work mom, but with at home mom." [laughs]

    18. MG

      Absolutely. And do you know, n- it's funny that you say that, work mom. My youngest daughter, um, said to me one time, "Mom, stop using your work voice. I don't want you to use your work voice."

    19. BK

      [laughs]

    20. MG

      Right?

    21. BK

      Yeah.

    22. MG

      And so boy, do kids... I mean, you talk about this, I think, a lot. They tune into where we are, and I think as I've learned even more as I watch my daughter now parent-

    23. BK

      Yeah

    24. MG

      ... she's 30 and she has two little girls-

    25. BK

      Yeah

    26. MG

      ... I watch her parent. She's really tuning into where they are.

    27. BK

      Yeah. Talk, talk to me about that. What's the difference between coming home and, "Okay, I gotta read a book to Jen. I've then gotta make dinner," versus getting in your yoga pants? It... Was it not just an outfit change, but was it, like, a mindset change?

    28. MG

      It was a mindset, and it was a slow down change. I think I will say about myself-

    29. BK

      Mm-hmm

    30. MG

      ... when I'm in work mode, [laughs] I am very goal-oriented, I'm very checklist, I'm getting this done, I'm doing that done. Maybe I'm a little short with the person, you know? And even this morning, right? And, um, but when you're with a, a young child, or any child, you need to actually slow down to understand what's going on for them.

  3. 7:41 – 9:13

    Half of women struggle with mental health during or after pregnancy

    1. MG

      are.

    2. BK

      Yes, yes, this generation, right, more in tune with feelings, more, they care more about feelings. I think we know the importance of feelings, right? I think we're trying to be careful not to over-correct to feelings dictating-

    3. MG

      Oh, for sure.

    4. BK

      Right.

    5. MG

      For sure.

    6. BK

      So all of that nuance. But I'm also thinking about research, right? You found that half of women still say they struggle with their mental health-

    7. MG

      Mm-hmm

    8. BK

      ... during pregnancy and in that first year after having a baby. Talk to me about that.

    9. MG

      Yes. I just worked with the Gallup organization-

    10. BK

      Yeah

    11. MG

      ... this summer-

    12. BK

      Yeah

    13. MG

      ... to do a survey of 5,000 adults across the United States because we've been hearing so much, I know you're hearing it with the work that you do, of these stories of women saying, "I struggled in this way, I'm struggling in that way," during the pregnancy, after the pregnancy. And I thought I, I want to see this data to see is this widespread? And so we did this survey and in fact, half of the respondents said, half, they struggled with their mental health either during pregnancy or afterwards. That is staggering, half.

    14. BK

      Yeah.

    15. MG

      And so we do need to tune to that as a society. And to me it says we can't put that burden just on the women or the parents. We need to make sure the healthcare system is tuned to that, which it is not today. And that, for me, was the importance of doing a survey, is the data points to us about where the gaps are and what we need to

  4. 9:13 – 12:27

    Why we screen for gestational diabetes but not mental health

    1. MG

      do.

    2. BK

      So here's what I was thinking about, and I'm, I'm curious how you think about this. Gestational diabetes.

    3. MG

      Okay.

    4. BK

      Let me just be clear. Very important. We have a whole system around it. I think I read it affects about 8 to 10% of women. Now, I, I just want to go on record. Dr. Becky does not think we should undo all the screening we do for gestational diabetes. That should stay. As you say, multiple things can be true. Keep it. 8 to 10%, serious health consequences.

    5. MG

      Very.

    6. BK

      And so what we've done as a system and say so serious, significant percentage, we need to look out for the signs before the woman would even know it's happening. Completely different from how we think about mental health, even though it affects half of that same population.

    7. MG

      Absolutely. Why aren't we saying, okay, we, so we know now half of the women will face this. What can we do to make sure we help them catch it so their partner knows as soon as they see the sign, or their primary care doctor, or their OBGYN? I was in an amazing clinic earlier this year in Alabama, um, and I met a woman named Asia Brooks, and she was not screened for her mental health with her first child and had a terrible experience. With her second child, she walked into the clinic, and the first thing they do in that clinic for every single woman that walks in the door, every woman, they screen for mental health, and they make sure they're tuning to that before they do all the testing and everything else-

    8. BK

      Yeah

    9. MG

      ... they need to do for the pregnancy.

    10. BK

      Yeah.

    11. MG

      Right?

    12. BK

      Yeah.

    13. MG

      Why aren't we doing that?

    14. BK

      Yeah.

    15. MG

      We can. I mean, I think the other thing to say is now that we know this, we have a responsibility to do something because we can do things. We should be doing many, many, many things for women's health.

    16. BK

      A- and if I think about my own journey, my first at least, let's think my pregnancy and then my first, you know, nobody prepared me, and this goes back to our probably joint perfectionistic tendencies. All the things that made perfectionism work for you when you were younger, effort can lead to outcome. If you try hard enough-

    17. MG

      Yeah

    18. BK

      ... you'll get the result you're looking for. It's true, we're not supposed to judge ourselves by results on the outside, but if you're a perfectionist and if you've been a successful one, you're like, "That, yeah, that might be true for the rest of population, but it's fine for me." [laughs] Okay, then you become a mom. And I wish I knew going in, I wish I was screened for, "Hey, Becky, have you been able to turn effort into outcome pretty well? Have you been able to operate with some control with success? Because this might sound like a surprise to you, but that's gonna be a huge vulnerability-"

    19. MG

      Mm

    20. BK

      ... for your mental health. No matter how hard you try- I don't know when your baby's crawling or smiling, and I don't know how breastfeeding's gonna go, and your baby might not stick to the schedule that you think is a barometer of being a good mom. And so let's get you ready for that. Like, that would've been-

    21. MG

      Wow

    22. BK

      ... ugh.

    23. MG

      That would've been great preparation. You're so right.

  5. 12:27 – 14:07

    Having to push to be taken seriously by doctors

    1. BK

      So helpful. Okay, here's, here's another stat from your recent study. One in three women say they've had to push to get a healthcare provider take their concerns seriously. Tell me about that, and I feel like it's worth naming you're one of the most powerful women in the world.

    2. MG

      Mm.

    3. BK

      Has that even ever happened to you?

    4. MG

      Absolutely, it's happened to me, and I, again, I'm in an unbelievably privileged situation, right? But I, I talk about this these days even more in the perimenopause and menopause phase-

    5. BK

      Yeah

    6. MG

      ... which is one of the things we also surveyed. In this Gallup survey, we went across the women's lives, so not just to focus on the reproductive years-

    7. BK

      Mm-hmm

    8. MG

      ... which are super important, but also perimenopause and menopause because so many women, whi- which happened to me, my last child was born at age 37, I hit perimenopause in my early 40s. Now, I knew what, what menopause was, but I didn't know I was in it. I'm like, "I, I just had my last child a few years ago," right? And so I had to go to several healthcare professionals to be taken seriously and for them to say, "Oh, you know what? You might be in perimenopause." Right? Now, we, that burden should not be on women.

    9. BK

      Yeah.

    10. MG

      And so, you know, this is a time in life for women that is kind of unspeakable. It's invisible, you know? Oh, women are gonna go through it. No, no, no. We should be talking about this. We should have treatments. We should make sure medical professionals are trained, mental healthcare providers,

  6. 14:07 – 15:23

    Perimenopause, insomnia, and doubting herself at work

    1. MG

      right?

    2. BK

      Yeah. Tell, what, what were the things you had an inkling about that you went to a doctor with?

    3. MG

      I was-

    4. BK

      That were met with some version of, I don't know, "Eh," explain it away.

    5. MG

      Well, I started having chronic sleep issues, like, chronic, right? And, and I'd seen my older friends, luckily I have three very close friends who are just a bit older than me and who had sort of warned me about this-

    6. BK

      Mm

    7. MG

      ... one of them in particular, who's really on top of her health. And I started to have chronic sleep issues, but what really hit me was I was traveling all over the globe. I was a co-chair. I had founded the Gates Foundation, but I started to have anxiety in my 40s, and I thought, "This is so odd." I would go in to meet with, you know, the head of a country, a prime minister, a president. I'd done lots of these meetings. I knew how to do them, and I would doubt myself. And I thought, "I'm in the top of my career."

    8. BK

      Mm.

    9. MG

      "I'm doubting myself?" But again, that can happen when you have chronic insomnia and you're not sleeping, you can start to get more anxiety-

    10. BK

      Yeah

    11. MG

      ... and even starting into some depression, right?

    12. BK

      Yeah.

    13. MG

      And so that's what helped me continue to seek care until somebody said, "This is what is going on, I think,

  7. 15:23 – 17:58

    The "10,000 paper cuts"

    1. MG

      for you," right?

    2. BK

      In some ways, I think so much of our journey as women [laughs] is, like, a journey of trusting ourselves. Like-

    3. MG

      Yes

    4. BK

      ... what happens when women start to trust themselves?

    5. MG

      Yeah.

    6. BK

      That's like a big question.

    7. MG

      Yeah.

    8. BK

      And I'm curious how you think that's related to these moments with our doctors, where, you know, things get questioned and not taken seriously.

    9. MG

      I think it happens to women, girls and women, all over society. We're told, "You're too emotional."

    10. BK

      Yes.

    11. MG

      "You're too this. You're too that." And so we go through life, and we get the, as they say, kind of 10,000 paper cuts. And-

    12. BK

      Yep

    13. MG

      ... and we almost learn to not trust our gut.

    14. BK

      Yes.

    15. MG

      To not feel like, actually, that person just talked over me in that meet, in a meeting. That person just repeated my point. Huh, that didn't feel good, but the meeting moves on. Well, maybe it was just... And then we question ourselves. Maybe it was just me. Maybe it was... No. Like, trust yourself. You can get feedback. You can go back and ask other people in the meeting. And I think when we go into the medical system, I mean, let's be honest, our doctors do tend to have far more knowledge. I have a daughter who's in her last year of her residency. My gosh, her medical knowledge compared to mine, right? And I've lived a longer life's journey, but she is trained, and she's still learning. So we're already walking into an office where the other person, male or female, has, is in the authority position.

    16. BK

      Yes.

    17. MG

      But I think so often women have not been in those positions of authority, so we don't push. We don't ask the question. We almost learn to untrust our gut, right?

    18. BK

      Yes.

    19. MG

      And, and so what I'm saying, in part, again, part of the reason I did this survey is I wanted to see what is really going on. Let's look at the data. We can't just say to women, "Trust your gut. Keep pushing." We have to also fix the system so the system listens to them-

    20. BK

      Yeah

    21. MG

      ... and says, "Okay, you really are feeling this issue, this pain, this, you know, and let's make sure you actually get the test for lab. Let's consider whether could it be this or that or this third thing," right?

    22. BK

      A- and I think that interplay is so important. Like, yes, the medical system has to be better educated in women's health. We know-

    23. MG

      For sure

    24. BK

      ... the research on women and their bodies is so far behind, right, what it was for men. And I guess the added piece is the more any of us now are raising kids, and yes, raising girls,

  8. 17:58 – 21:15

    "You were right to notice that"

    1. BK

      to learn people are gonna be in authority on a lot of different topics.

    2. MG

      Mm-hmm.

    3. BK

      But you are the authority on what's going on inside your body.

    4. MG

      That's right.

    5. BK

      There is never anyone who will be better than you at knowing how you feel. That doesn't mean, like, [laughs] and parents will ask me, 'cause I feel like that's really weighty. They'll be like, "Okay, so when my kid says, 'Well, I'm the authority on my body. I want ice cream for breakfast.'"

    6. MG

      [laughs]

    7. BK

      Right? This is, like, really important.

    8. MG

      Yeah, it is

    9. BK

      'Cause I think it's important to say to your kid, "You're 100% right. You do want ice cream for breakfast. I believe you. Part of my job is deciding what's offered. It's not an option, but I totally believe you that the only thing that sounds good to you right now is ice cream." So I can validate the hell out of my kid's feeling, right? That doesn't ever mean our feelings have the right to dictate other people's decisions, but that distinction, and I think, like, I believe you. One of the things I l- I find-

    10. MG

      Mm

    11. BK

      ... so healing to say to my daughter and my sons is, "You were right to notice that."

    12. MG

      Mm.

    13. BK

      "Were you guys fighting over there?" Me and my husband, we raised our voices. "You were right to notice that." "You've been gone so many nights this week." I traveled, you know, more nights than usual. "You're right. You were right to notice that" I feel like every time-

    14. MG

      Mm

    15. BK

      ... I say that to my daughter-

    16. MG

      That's beautiful

    17. BK

      ... I'm gonna make her more able to say to a doctor later on, "No, no, no. Th- this appointment is not over. I- I know this is real. I don't know what it is. I feel like I need your help with that part-"

    18. MG

      Mm-hmm

    19. BK

      "... 'cause you have all that knowledge, but I know something's off."

    20. MG

      Mm-hmm. Or, "I've noticed that you're not trusting what I told you about this feeling I'm having-"

    21. BK

      Ah

    22. MG

      "... in my body. I noticed you seem to think I don't need that test. Why might that be?" Like, I love your language. I've never thought of that, saying it's, you noticed that.

    23. BK

      Yes.

    24. MG

      Th- then it, then it gives authority-

    25. BK

      Ah

    26. MG

      ... to the person who's in less authority to say, "I've noticed you seem to think this about me." It calls out-

    27. BK

      Ah

    28. MG

      ... the dynamic of what's really going on in the room.

    29. BK

      No, I love that addition, because you're right. If we, in a, a ... Yes, a girl who's been told and has that language, "Wait, I've been right to notice certain things in my life-"

    30. MG

      Mm-hmm

  9. 21:15 – 23:10

    Raising girls who trust themselves

    1. MG

      changing in these ways. You know, I do see younger people, especially by the time my last child came along, so I have a, we talked about this earlier, I have a daughter and then a son and then another daughter. My youngest is probably the most feisty of the three. Maybe that's birth order. Probably is. Um, but I even notice, you know, she just was more comfortable, is still more comfortable, talking about her feelings.

    2. BK

      Mm.

    3. MG

      And she's taught me the language more of feelings and how to tune to those feelings.

    4. BK

      Mm.

    5. MG

      And I think as a society, I think that's really good for girls and for boys.

    6. BK

      Yes.

    7. MG

      'Cause I have a son in the middle, and I will say, I see this in the workforce. You know, we've told men for so often, too, "Don't," you know, "Okay, just suck it up. Just pick yourself up and keep going." Well, guess what? Boys have emotions too, and so do girls. Now, the way a lot of the corporations or workplaces are set up, they're set up for men, um, so we're not really tuning towards the woman's experience. But I think that is starting to change and needs to keep changing, right?

    8. BK

      Yeah.

    9. MG

      Our workplaces were built for, you know, the work environment we had maybe 50 years ago, but that is changing. We have far more situations where both parents are working, right?

    10. BK

      Mm-hmm.

    11. MG

      And both parents are trying to care for the children. So how do we update even our workplaces? Again, one of the things I've been advocating for now for over eight years is paid family medical leave, not just for the woman, but for the man.

    12. BK

      Yeah.

    13. MG

      Because when I meet men in Sweden and Norway, and I've sat with groups of men, they just, they scratch their heads. They can't believe men in the US don't take time off at the birth of the child. They say, "Are you kidding me? I want to participate. I

  10. 23:10 – 26:32

    Paid family leave and what Nordic countries get right

    1. MG

      want to be there." And because they've had a policy for over 30 years, it has changed the norm in society-

    2. BK

      Yes

    3. MG

      ... about what dads expect of themselves-

    4. BK

      Yes

    5. MG

      ... and what children expect of their fathers.

    6. BK

      I- I- I think that's amazing.

    7. MG

      Right?

    8. BK

      Yes, because, look, as a psychologist, I think a lot about an individual, but at the end of the day, I'm a systems thinker, right? We all operate in the systems we're in, and the most powerful interventions aren't individual interventions, they're systems interventions. So I even think about that phrase people say, and you kind of referred to it, "Sleep when the baby sleeps," right? Well, you know how much easier it would be for the woman to sleep when the baby sleeps if they had a partner who was home ordering the diapers during that time and, you know, making the appointment for the pediatrician? 'Cause there are things that need to get done, and if you're home alone, sleep when the baby sleeps can feel, um, it can feel maddening to hear. Like, do, do you know what it takes to, like, get by in my day? I can't always sleep when the baby sleeps.

    9. MG

      Of course you can't.

    10. BK

      Right?

    11. MG

      There's so much going on.

    12. BK

      There's so much to do. So t- t- tell me a little more what you see in those countries. I'm curious just the lived experience, the relationships, the mental health, things like that.

    13. MG

      Soci- so in, in these Nordic countries that have had-

    14. BK

      Yeah

    15. MG

      ... these policies for so long- Literally, it has changed the workforce. So more men and women work. Literally, products change because of it. So for instance, in, in Norway, for instance, many people are biking to work. They're in the snow, so they have bikes now that have a carrier on the side where you can put your things, and you can put the child, and it works in the snow, for a man or a woman, right?

    16. BK

      Yeah.

    17. MG

      And so I just think, gosh, when society gets on board and says, "We care about the whole family, what's best for the child, and how do we then change our policies?" And thus, then our workplaces change, right? And just as we're seeing in the United States, as more women come up in society and are working, even products for moms are changing, right? Things, health trackers are changing. The way, my goodness, the way a breast pump works today, thank God, is different than when I had children, right?

    18. BK

      Right. Yep.

    19. MG

      Um, so but we need women. This is why I am so much on this point about women's health, also, is that women's health is connected to women's power.

    20. BK

      Mm.

    21. MG

      So if a woman is healthy, she has to d- be well to do well.

    22. BK

      Mm.

    23. MG

      But conversely, w- again, we're hearing in this survey, women are stepping back in work, or they're taking hours off to seek care because they're not being heard in the medical system. Or they're not going for the promotion. Women need to be able, if they wanna have their career and have children, they need to be able to reach those places in society, not have to step back 'cause of their health. And that's why we have to change the system of health, to not just be set up for and tuned for a man's body, but for a woman's body for her whole life.

    24. BK

      I'm, I'm thinking about how now all your, your kids are grown and out of the house.

    25. MG

      Yeah.

    26. BK

      You were talking earlier, my kids are not grown, and they're in the house, so different life stages. I'll be there probably sooner than it seems.

    27. MG

      Sooner than you think, yes.

    28. BK

      Right? What was that transition like? I think about, we're talking about women,

  11. 26:32 – 29:15

    Empty nest and a new chapter of identity

    1. BK

      and our arcs, and our trust, and how we stand up for ourselves, and I think this major transition for a lot of us as moms, I haven't been there yet, so I wanna hear about it from you, is this huge piece of my identity continues. I'm still a mom. But my guess is it feels really different when the last one's out of the house.

    2. MG

      It feels really different. And I, I will say, especially when my oldest, who's now 30, but when she was little, I could literally, even when she was five, cry at the drop of a hat thinking of her going off to college. 'Cause I would think, "I love her so much. I don't ever want her to leave this house," right? Um, and then my sister, who's two years older than me, had said, and she has two children, now adults, obviously, but she said to me, "You know, but if you've done your job as a parent, you want them to have that independence and be able to go. It means you've done a good job." My mom used to call it giving us our wings to fly. And she said, "So you're gonna feel like, Melinda, if you look at it from a different angle, when they go, you have done your job." And believe me, you know, they're still gonna want you and need you, and it's different and at different times. But I was, it also made me even more grateful that I did have a career that I also enjoyed. As much as I had lots of parental guilt when they were young-

    3. BK

      Uh-huh

    4. MG

      ... I realized, oh, thank God I had a career because I also had that to stand on as they were launching off to college, right?

    5. BK

      Yeah, like one part of your identity staying stable-

    6. MG

      That's right

    7. BK

      ... in a way. Like, m- m- my whole life hasn't changed. This big piece is gonna be new and gonna be different, but still tomorrow, I'm gonna show up to the office [laughs] and, you know.

    8. MG

      Yeah, and still do the things that I love and that I've been working on. And then it's like, hey, I actually have a bit more time on my hands, so I had to be really purposeful in that transition. It is a huge transition you go through of, how do I wanna spend my time? Do I wanna let it all get sucked, you know, into work? 'Cause I, I do love my work, and I love to put my brain there. Or do I wanna have more time to try some new things and, you know, s- even make some new friends, right?

    9. BK

      Yeah.

    10. MG

      How will I make new friends if-

    11. BK

      Yeah

    12. MG

      ... I don't have kids in school anymore, if a lot of those friendships are coming from school, right?

    13. BK

      Right, yeah.

    14. MG

      But it can be, the thing I want women to know is, it can be such a vibrant time of life. Nobody told me that.

    15. BK

      Mm.

    16. MG

      That it could just be so eye-opening and vibrant.

    17. BK

      Do you feel like you trust yourself more now than when you were 30?

    18. MG

      100% I do.

    19. BK

      Wow, that did not... I saw you answer that before I s- before I finished my question. Um-

    20. MG

      100% I do.

    21. BK

      Yeah, so tell, tell me about that and how. How and why did it get there?

    22. MG

      Um, it took a lot

  12. 29:15 – 31:48

    Learning to trust herself again

    1. MG

      of internal work, quite honestly. It was, I had to go back and learn to re-trust myself. I had to really go through-

    2. BK

      Mm

    3. MG

      ... in therapy. I have a great therapist, but I had to look at, well, where did I lose it along the way? What life situation? Maybe an early boyfriend, maybe an experience I had in college that wasn't so good. Okay, I, I walked into a very male-dominated work culture, which I loved. It was hard-charging, but I absorbed certain things.

    4. BK

      Mm.

    5. MG

      And so I had let it dwindle over time in a certain way, and so it was almost a coming back to myself.

    6. BK

      Two things. First of all, you know, this, uh, Good Inside, we, many things out in the world, one of them is an app, and we have these members. And one of them said something to me I'll never forget, and it just mirrors what you said. She said, "I feel like this process helps my kid grow, but it helps me return."

    7. MG

      Mm, beautiful.

    8. BK

      That's what, but that's what you're-

    9. MG

      Yes

    10. BK

      ... it's a, it's, uh-

    11. MG

      It's a returning to yourself and who you are, right? In fact, a lot of my friends who've known me since even high school and some of my college friends will say to me now, "Melinda, you're more like yourself- As when I knew you in our late teen years and in our 20s, and I thought, "Oh, my God, what a beautiful compliment."

    12. BK

      That really is. I- The second thing I wanted to double-click on, okay, so you mentioned maybe some stuff in high school or a boyfriend and-

    13. MG

      Mm-hmm

    14. BK

      ... college, and I know people listening, I do think it's so, such an interesting way to think of it. So much of our adulthood is figuring out how to return.

    15. MG

      Mm-hmm.

    16. BK

      Right? It's so true, and also we're like, "Oh, we got so far away." And so to think about these patterns, these moments, like, what is it when each moment, a little bit you're saying, we stop trusting ourselves? I'm just think- what do we prioritize instead? What do we focus on instead in those moments that leads us a little to, to abandon ourselves?

    17. MG

      Mm-hmm.

    18. BK

      Right? I don't know. I wonder if, if you could tell me a little bit-

    19. MG

      Yeah, it is a form of abandonment.

    20. BK

      Yeah. And what, what gets... What's the story we tell ourselves that ends up, or for you, what's the story you told ourselves in college or these moments in high school that took over the self-trust?

    21. MG

      I think it was different in different moments, but I don't think I trusted somehow that I was enough. I was in a, I was in a, a relationship in college where,

  13. 31:48 – 34:00

    A college relationship, Microsoft, and coming back to herself

    1. MG

      uh, the young man was a year older than me, and it was a relationship that went on too long. I let it go on too long. Uh, but it was verbally abusive, very verbally abusive, and I think I started to believe some of those terrible messages he was saying to me about myself, about my looks, or not being enough in this way or that way. And when you start to adopt somebody else's belief system, you are abandoning yourself, right? And so even though I extricated myself out of that relationship, then I find myself in a work environment that's very male-oriented. It's hard-charging. It, we are changing the world. I'm at Microsoft. I love it, but it was kind of a different belief system. This is the way you do things, and I could almost only see myself when I would be away from that work environment. In fact, my best friend, who's still my best friend today, we met on the first day of high school, she came and visited me early in my career at Microsoft, and she was able to point out to me, "You act like everything is about being smart. It's not." And I realized I was adopting that from my work culture.

    2. BK

      Hmm.

    3. MG

      That, and I thought, "I don't like myself. I don't like who I'm turning into." Like, I could see I was curt or short with people at the grocery store or the cashier or-

    4. BK

      Right

    5. MG

      ... and I realized, "Why am I adopting a different belief system-

    6. BK

      Ah

    7. MG

      ... than who I wanna be?" I need, I had to learn even in that work environment to return who I was. I was willing to leave my job if I couldn't be myself. I finally realized how important it was to be myself-

    8. BK

      Wow

    9. MG

      ... in that work environment. I'm good enough.

    10. BK

      I'm good enough.

    11. MG

      I know myself enough. I'm worthy as I am, and I'm never gonna accept somebody else's worth put on top of me. I'm worthy as I am.

    12. BK

      Speaking about growth, you now have grandkids, too-

    13. MG

      Mm-hmm

    14. BK

      ... as you were saying. Girls.

    15. MG

      Two girls, yes.

    16. BK

      I sometimes find myself, and I think the language of, "You were right to notice that," I think the reason it feels so good

  14. 34:00 – 39:35

    Her granddaughters and "I'm not ready yet"

    1. BK

      to say to my daughter is I'm, like, also saying it to, like, my inner child or-

    2. MG

      Mm-hmm

    3. BK

      ... like, there's certain things I find feel not only powerful but, like, almost healing to me-

    4. MG

      Mm-hmm

    5. BK

      ... to say to my kid.

    6. MG

      Mm-hmm.

    7. BK

      And I'm curious if you ever find yourself acting in a way with your granddaughters or saying things, that part of you like, "Oh, I could have really used this when I was-

    8. MG

      Mm

    9. BK

      ... when I was younger."

    10. MG

      Mm. I would say that's come up more with my adult kids.

    11. BK

      Hmm.

    12. MG

      Um, but I would say with my granddaughters, it's much more about the second I walk in the door, it's about trying to tune to where they are. So almost every single time I meet, meet them, I'm sitting on the floor. They c- and wait for them to come to me. If they're not quite ready, one of them comes running, and the other just isn't ready that day. I happened to see them yesterday. One had just gotten up from her nap. Guess what? She wasn't quite ready. She was happy I was there, but she was reserved, and she needed me to be a little more quiet and, and whatnot, and I thought, I did think afterwards, "Gosh, I wish somebody had taught me this about my own kids, and I wish I had been tuned to that way."

    13. BK

      Yeah.

    14. MG

      Right?

    15. BK

      Versus the overwhelm we all feel when we kinda take it personally.

    16. MG

      Mm-hmm.

    17. BK

      Is that what, like, that's it?

    18. MG

      Yeah.

    19. BK

      Like, oh.

    20. MG

      Yeah.

    21. BK

      I came to visit, or why aren't you ready, or kind of things like that.

    22. MG

      Y- yes. I think two generations ago, it was like the child had to be sort of perfect at the front door. Gaze in the eye, shake the hand-

    23. BK

      Yeah

    24. MG

      ... all of that, you know?

    25. BK

      Yeah, which is that actually perfect example. I'm thinking about that mini abandonment-

    26. MG

      Yeah

    27. BK

      ... of, I mean, I'm gonna really tear up when I think about how powerful it is for a girl to know I'm not ready yet.

    28. MG

      Mm-hmm. I'm not quite ready. I just need another moment. [laughs]

    29. BK

      But how early on we teach girls to undo that.

    30. MG

      Mm-hmm.

  15. 39:35 – 41:19

    Good enough parenting and why perfect is creepy

    1. MG

      of being a good enough parent so much earlier. I learned it when my youngest two were in middle school, and 'cause I was such a perfectionist in life, in academics, and then in my work career, and so I thought there was, you know, perfectionist mom. What is, what is a perfect mom? There's no such thing, and I'm doing the best I can. And when I finally learned in middle school that I was a good enough parent, when I learned the concept, I, I looked at it, I'm like, "Okay," I could say to myself, "am I a good enough parent? You bet I'm a good enough parent." And my kids, it almost dropped the pr- it, it did, not almost. It dropped the pressure off me, and guess what? It dropped the pressure off of them, 'cause I stopped putting my pressure on them, and, um, and it just kind of calmed things in the house, right?

    2. BK

      100%. You know, I know we're coming to an end, but me and my kids always say, "Perfect is creepy." You know, it- it's like kind of just-

    3. MG

      Oh, I love that

    4. BK

      ... perfect is creepy. It's like robot. It's, it's, you know, and it kind of takes... It- we always laugh about it, and, and then it opens up learning and curiosity and connecting and figuring things out together. So I'm right there with you on doing that. Perfect mom narrative is so important. Kids wouldn't benefit from perfect parents-

    5. MG

      Never

    6. BK

      ... anyway. So not possible.

    7. MG

      And there's no such thing.

    8. BK

      And no such thing.

    9. MG

      [laughs]

    10. BK

      Love it. Thank you.

    11. MG

      Oh, thank you. Thanks for all you're doing.

    12. BK

      I wanna end by taking this whole conversation and making it super practical to you. I'm going to share three lines that always feel really good to me to say to my kids. Yes, they're a little healing, and at the same time, I

  16. 41:19 – 43:35

    Three phrases that build self-trust in kids

    1. BK

      know I'm building the type of self-trust that is gonna help them immensely for the rest of their lives. One, "I believe you." Two, "You're right to notice that." Three, "There's something about this that doesn't feel good. You're sensing that." Now, I want to remind you, you can say all of those things and still set a boundary. You're building self-trust by giving your kid credit for clocking something inside their body. That is totally different than the decision you end up making. This topic of confidence is my latest passion project, and it's one of the reasons I couldn't be more excited and honored to team up to give my Confidence Program away for free. I mean that, totally free, $0. Why? Because I think people in the world really need this, and I think you're gonna be surprised as you go through the program, which is a bunch of really short, three-minute videos, I think the first one you can do when you're hiding in your bathroom. You're gonna find something super healing and confidence-building in yourself as well. Link in the show notes. Go check it out. Let's end the way we always do, but I wanna make a quick note. Melinda French Gates was saying that the key to her confidence-building journey was learning that her self-worth, her good enough-ness, existed within her as a baseline. When I think about the way we always end this podcast, I think that's the exact same message we're building up in ourselves, though it's never felt more important to do this exercise together. Place your feet on the ground, place a hand on your heart, and let's remind ourselves, "Even as I struggle on the outside, I remain good inside." I'll see you next week. [outro music]

Episode duration: 43:35

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