Men Beyond Utility with Dr. John Delony

Dr. Becky Kennedy 0:00 So I'm on my book tour, and this dad comes up to me after and he said, "I just have to share this story." He goes, "You were kind of like in my head this morning." I said, "Tell me more." He goes, "It was this morning. I was trying to get my son out the door to school and he was being difficult, right? He was delaying, wouldn't get his shoes on." And he's like, "I really could see the way my dad like would've responded to me. I don't know if for sure it's a memory, but I could've guessed. 'What's wrong with you? You're gonna make me late to work. Let's go.' A lot of yelling. I would've felt scared." And he's like, "Instead I, I heard something you shared, you know, a few times that you could do and I heard myself then say this to my son, that what I ended up saying was, 'You know, when I was young I also used to have some mornings when I didn't wanna go to school.'"

Dr. John Delony 0:52 Hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 0:53 And he's like, "That's all I said and I didn't expect it to be magical in the moment even though I kind of knew it would feel good just to relate to him instead of yell at him." And he's like, "And it turned out he then just wanted to hear about when I was four and five and how I didn't like to go to school as he happily put on his shoes and got into the car and we finally got to school on time." And there was just so much in this in terms of what fatherhood looks like. Yelling, punishing, frustration, connection, presence, storytelling. And as I knew you were coming in today, I just, I, I couldn't help but think that I wanted your kind of perspective on how, how you think about fatherhood-

Dr. John Delony 1:38 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:38 ... your journey, what your dad was like.

Dr. John Delony 1:41 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:41 Just all of it in terms of that kind of arc.

Dr. John Delony 1:46 I mean, I was raised, my dad was a homicide detective and a SWAT hostage negotiator in-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:51 Mm

Dr. John Delony 1:52 ... in Houston, Texas, right? So all of the Texas tropes were, were, were there, right? And he was raised by a World War II vet who was raised by a man whose dad died when he was 10. So like now that I'm older I can look back and say I'm doing things very, very different and I can look back at the compa- with compassion and say, "Oh, this is a guy that would open up his tool kit and there's only a couple of tools in there, and yet he built a house with only one or two tools. And yet it's my job now if I want things to be different to have more tools in that tool kit." And then saying, "What's the next right move?" And I don't think there's a script for dads right now. Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 2:34 And, and so was there ever a time in your fatherhood journey where you had these worries? I think I hear from dads a lot of worries, like, "Okay, I'm relating to my kids' feelings. Like the world's not gonna do that for them. The world isn't gonna care. The world isn't gonna sit on their bed. Like someone has to toughen these kids up. Someone has to prepare them for the world." And so given you were not raised by a dad-

Dr. John Delony 2:56 Right

Dr. Becky Kennedy 2:56 ... who was like sitting on your bed-

Dr. John Delony 2:57 Right. [laughs] Right. Right

Dr. Becky Kennedy 2:58 ... okay, and that's where you are now. And so w- have those worries been part of your own kind of journey?

Dr. John Delony 3:05 They've, they've, I mean, they've, they've been immobilizing at times.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 3:08 Yeah.

Dr. John Delony 3:08 And it's... I got there in a strange place, and this is a weird journey here. So I was a hyper kid which I'm on the, the back end of a generation of young boys that just been pathologized just for being who you are since we were little kids. And so I've just known since I was a little boy that there's something wrong with me and then as I got older, see how the world works and spending years in grad school I realized I, I was, got another narrative which is every problem in the world is because of you, right? And so I also learned I can just opt out and that's hard, right? But also you can't opt out, so it's been this I don't know how to do this thing right and then my son is very much, um, I say this lovingly, is very much the golden retriever. Like, "I'm, it's okay, Dad." And, and I've s- said, "It's not your job to make me okay."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 4:00 Mm.

Dr. John Delony 4:00 Right? But that was hard realizing he's trying to solve it for me. Like, "It's okay. It's okay. It's okay."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 4:05 What's the it solve?

Dr. John Delony 4:06 When I get frustrated, when I want something a certain way, when, um, even now that I'm trying to, now that he's getting older just to talk through, I really had high hopes for this tour that I went on and the tickets didn't sell like I wanted them to at these two venues, but they did at this, but not these two and he's like, "Man, that's okay, Dad." I said, "Hold on. That's not your job to fix for me. I appreciate the..." So yeah, it's been tough, tough, tough. Here's the strange analogy. So I got into mixed martial arts a lot in my mid-20s and I was with these pro fighters and what... And there was just coming out of a season when these MMA fighters that were professionals, they didn't have any practice. They would just get in the gym every day and beat each other up. They would just fight and then they would go do their matches at the end of the week or do their events. And what we started to see over time was, oh, just getting in a room and punching and kicking each other as hard as you possibly can makes you less effective over time.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 5:02 Mm.

Dr. John Delony 5:03 And so now, now it's just kinda common knowledge you don't really punch or kick until someone, until you have signed a contract and you're in a ring. Now we're gonna work on skills. We're gonna... Like beating you up, hitting somebody thinking you're making them tougher, you're not. Um, and so it's been an arc for me like, oh, yelling and screaming doesn't solve this problem. My kids learn adaptive strategies on not how to respond well but how to not get in trouble with Dad, and that doesn't help them in the long term. And so my goal has then shifted and I've got a... My wife was a doctor long, long before me. She's, she's way smarter than me, but this who do I want them to become and 99.9% of the challenges I was watching them experience in our home was me-centric. I had to go to, sit with a therapist and say, "I'm not okay and these kids are absorbing this." And so if I go do the work for myself and I learn some new skills, then I'm giving them a map on how to work in the real world.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 6:03 But what you're saying, and I think this parallel's really important- Kind of quote, "The real world", when my kid is in a job, that's like the ring.

Dr. John Delony 6:11 Right. That's right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 6:12 And I think you, me, this made-up mom or dad we're thinking of who's saying, "My kid's gotta be prepared for the real world," I feel like we look at each other and be like, "Absolutely."

Dr. John Delony 6:22 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 6:23 "We are on the same page."

Dr. John Delony 6:24 Yes, yes.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 6:24 "You're right. Their boss will not sit down and say, you know, 'Ugh, I really just care about your feelings.'" That's not their therapist, that's their boss.

Dr. John Delony 6:31 That's right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 6:31 We agree. But I think what you're saying in terms of that metaphor is the best way to prepare a fighter to be super tough in the ring is not just kind of doing harsh things to them-

Dr. John Delony 6:47 Right

Dr. Becky Kennedy 6:47 ... in practice. Like, that's actually not the road. Or I think another way I think of it is we all want our kids to swim in the ocean, but we do start in a training pool.

Dr. John Delony 6:56 Yeah, you don't throw them off the-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 6:57 You don't start in the ocean

Dr. John Delony 6:58 ... off an oil rig and say, "Get back to sh- to shore," right?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 7:01 Right.

Dr. John Delony 7:01 It's madness.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 7:02 And nobody says when you're in a... I think it's interesting, when you're in a training pool, Becky, like you're kind of coddling your kid. If you want them to swim in the ocean, you shouldn't start in a training pool. We say, "No, no, if you want them to swim in the ocean, start in a training pool-

Dr. John Delony 7:16 Right

Dr. Becky Kennedy 7:16 ... so they can learn skills, be in increasingly more difficult situations, and then one day when they're in an ocean, they'll be strong enough to swim."

Dr. John Delony 7:26 Right. And, and it, there's the other side to that. W- when we did swim lessons with my son the first time when he was a little kid, to graduate the instructor chunked them into the pool as though they fell off something. And to pass they had to swim back. And there's a big sign that said, "Moms and dads, we know what we're doing. If this is, if you can't handle this, they- they're gonna be fine. If y'all can't handle this, then this isn't the swimming-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 7:46 Yeah

Dr. John Delony 7:47 ... group for y'all." And they took my kid by an arm and a leg and threw him in. And I knew it was coming and I went, "Okay. One, I wanna shove this high school kid that just threw my kid, I wanna shove you in the water, and oh, this is teaching him how to swim." And he swam back and he got up and was just like, "I did it." You know what I mean?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 8:04 Right.

Dr. John Delony 8:04 And I was like, "Oh, that's what that is."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 8:05 That's right.

Dr. John Delony 8:06 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 8:07 Now, you said something else that I just wanna double click on. I think about how we wanna prepare our kids for the future. You wanna be the type of dad who does that, but you're saying you also wanna be the person that they, they come to-

Dr. John Delony 8:18 That's right

Dr. Becky Kennedy 8:19 ... or they talk to. So how do, how do you think about those? How do those two things go together? Do they ever feel in opposition? How have you reconciled your ability to be there for them in their hard moments, and seeing that as a way of maybe even preparing them for the real world?

Dr. John Delony 8:32 So every, every... Like I had, I had parenting 1.0 and then this one moment shifted. So a cool thing, I was done with graduate school, I was all done, and I had my big fancy job. And what I was seeing was the students that were coming to me at the university level, they had stopped asking, "What am I gonna be when I grow up? Can you write me a letter?" It was all starting to shift in 2010, '11, '12 to, "I don't know if I wanna be alive anymore. I've got all these diagnostics. There's something wrong. I'm medicated."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 9:00 Yeah.

Dr. John Delony 9:00 Like it was a mess.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 9:01 Yeah.

Dr. John Delony 9:01 And so I went back to grad school because I didn't know what I was doing, and my marriage was falling apart, and my friend's marriages were falling. Like I didn't know... I was like, "What is happening here?" And so I got to go back, but I had to go be an intern again. And there was this extraordinary psychologist, Dr. Michael Gomez, who I still, he's, he was a savant for me, really important, but I remember we were working with traumatized kids, and we were going from room to room. And this young s- kid that we were working with, and you know when you're doing forensic stuff, you, th- they talk in play, right? So we were playing a game where this kid was teaching us how to roll a joint, trying to figure out what he had seen at, at his house. And we went to this next room and I said... He was, this kid was saying some wild things about women. He was like five or six, and it was just kind of throwaway stuff, but I was s- I was shocked.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 9:50 Yeah.

Dr. John Delony 9:50 And we went from room to room and I said, "Doc, like, what are you supposed to say to a kid to teach him to respect women?" Well, I had a three-year-old little boy, right? So I had a vested interest in this. And he just laughed. And he's like, "You can say whatever you want, they don't listen to you. If you want your kids to respect women, it's important for them to see it." Which meant, "Oh, well, here we go. Now I gotta get a group of men that are older than me that I can sit down who are wiser than me, and I gotta get a gang, and then I gotta go see a therapist because I got some crap I gotta work out."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 10:19 Yeah.

Dr. John Delony 10:20 And there, I, I don't know that there's a shortcut to that.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 10:22 I, I think that part really matters, that these things don't happen overnight.

Dr. John Delony 10:27 Mm-mm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 10:27 Like you and I have talked about this before where you don't do all your parenting in like a 30 or 60 second lecture.

Dr. John Delony 10:33 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 10:33 Like that would be nice, right? Like, "Respect women," or, "You have to be tough when things don't go your way," as if something I'm gonna say in one or two minutes is like my kid's light bulb, "Oh, it's really helpful. Now that will stick with me forever." Like-

Dr. John Delony 10:44 Yeah. I really wanted-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 10:46 Right

Dr. John Delony 10:46 ... a Snapchat dad, but I see your-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 10:48 Right

Dr. John Delony 10:48 ... point, right? [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 10:49 I see your point.

Dr. John Delony 10:50 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 10:50 And you're right, I should stay calm when things don't go my way.

Dr. John Delony 10:52 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 10:53 No. They, they're watching us.

Dr. John Delony 10:55 Every second.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 10:56 They're watching us.

Dr. John Delony 10:57 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 10:58 And, and so much then of this kind of... So I just wanna double click on this like toughness, like being tough, being able to handle hard things, being able to handle when something doesn't go your way, being able to take accountability-

Dr. John Delony 11:11 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 11:12 ... when you've maybe acted out.

Dr. John Delony 11:15 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 11:15 That these aren't lectures. These are behaviors we have to model.

Dr. John Delony 11:20 They're lived experiences, yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 11:21 What about the accountability part? Saying sorry, saying I was wrong. Do you feel like dads have a harder time with that? Do you feel like that's a sticking point?

Dr. John Delony 11:30 Yeah, I think, I think the, the implicit message I think I've, I've received from all environments, from growing up to professional, is I have one value in the world, and it's utility.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 11:42 Mm.

Dr. John Delony 11:43 Do you have the right answer or can you fix this thing, right? And it was 10 years into marriage and my wife's like, "I don't need you to fix this."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 11:51 Mm.

Dr. John Delony 11:51 "I just need you to sit here." And it was another five years before I realized, oh, she didn't love me for my answers, she just loved me because of, for me. And then I had to go look in the mirror and be like, "You don't even like yourself. How can she like you?"

Dr. Becky Kennedy 12:05 Mm.

Dr. John Delony 12:05 Right?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 12:06 Mm.

Dr. John Delony 12:06 And so I think there's this idea that if my only value is in- ... the answers I give, then that means being wrong is an existential threat.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 12:16 Mm.

Dr. John Delony 12:16 I c- I don't, I don't have a psychology for that. I can't be wrong.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 12:19 Mm.

Dr. John Delony 12:19 I have to be right, and there's no, there's no public modeling of, "I was wrong on this."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 12:25 Right. [laughs]

Dr. John Delony 12:25 There's just a double down, and we're gonna ride this sucker to the bottom of the ocean.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 12:29 Or I find instead of just even a double down, blame.

Dr. John Delony 12:33 That's the, that's the only thing I've got, is complaining or blaming when I feel shamed. Or, or swinging, just throwing punches.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 12:40 Right.

Dr. John Delony 12:40 Or I guess the fourth would be checking out.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 12:41 Yeah.

Dr. John Delony 12:42 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 12:42 But let's go through some scenarios, 'cause I think this is true in marriages, with kids, this idea of my value is fixing or being right versus in the same scenario, can I kind of think about myself in a new role where my value is being present?

Dr. John Delony 12:58 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 12:58 Right? Okay, so you have a wife. Let's say she comes home, and she's just really upset that she wasn't invited. She saw some friends out to lunch, and she's like, "Oh, man, like, I wasn't-

Dr. John Delony 13:08 Yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 13:08 ... invited to that thing." What do you think that first mindset would sound like in terms of fix, make better? What, what do you say back from that mindset?

Dr. John Delony 13:16 Well, old John would do one of two things. Dude, I'm gonna call her, I'm gonna call her husband and be like, "What's wrong with your wife, dude? Like, what's the, what's the deal here? They're our friends. That's ridiculous," right? Um, which in a, in a male world, there's some value to, "I'll go hit that guy."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 13:33 Mm.

Dr. John Delony 13:34 Right? Like, that is a shoulder to shoulder, "I'll prove I'm on your team."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 13:38 Yeah.

Dr. John Delony 13:38 Like, I'll go get... I'll go spend a night in jail if you'll bail me out. Like, I'll... Right? That's, that's the old, like, code.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 13:43 It's like brotherhood.

Dr. John Delony 13:44 That's it, right? And so there is this sense of I'll go solve this.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 13:49 Yeah.

Dr. John Delony 13:49 And the other thing is I would have lectured her on what she should have said or what she should say next.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 13:54 Mm.

Dr. John Delony 13:54 You need to text them and let them... I don't need that from you. These are my friends, right?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 14:00 Wow.

Dr. John Delony 14:00 And so then I have to realize, oh, she's telling me 'cause I'm a safe, to use your word, that has made a huge impact in my, in my personal home, she needs a sturdy place. But it's, it's coming together in that way, and I've had to accept she doesn't need me to say anything. She needs me to be here.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 14:16 Mm.

Dr. John Delony 14:16 And so I think those old, um, I don't wanna say old, the, uh, the, the paternalistic tropes-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 14:27 Mm

Dr. John Delony 14:27 ... providing and protecting, I actually think those still work, except she may not need my money. She may need me to provide a safe space, or she may need me to protect her spirit. She may need me to protect, um, this little room right here so she can come in and just be really upset that her friends didn't invite her out.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 14:48 Yeah.

Dr. John Delony 14:48 And that's different than fist fighting, right?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 14:50 Completely, and just... And I think sometimes if we do have words in those moments, just for anyone listening where this is new, they feel remarkably unsophisticated.

Dr. John Delony 14:59 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 14:59 Because I think you named exactly what someone would do. I'm gonna go hurt the other person.

Dr. John Delony 15:05 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 15:06 Or I'm gonna tell you how you could avoid this next time, right? Versus when you're really saying kind of, "Okay, my value is just my presence."

Dr. John Delony 15:15 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 15:15 It's not fixing. It's support, not solutions. The words that come out are something like, "Oh, that stinks." Period.

Dr. John Delony 15:22 Th- there's two magic words in my house.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 15:23 Yeah.

Dr. John Delony 15:23 "That sucks."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 15:24 That's it. That's it.

Dr. John Delony 15:26 "That sucks."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 15:26 And then you have to say to yourself, 'cause I think a lot of times where we go next is, "And then what?" I think whenever you say, "And then what?" you're like, "No, no, I just did the thing."

Dr. John Delony 15:33 That's right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 15:34 Just count to 30 in my head.

Dr. John Delony 15:35 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 15:36 Call it a win. [laughs]

Dr. John Delony 15:37 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 15:37 And move on.

Dr. John Delony 15:37 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 15:37 Okay, what about with your kids? So let's say your kid comes home, and they're really upset that they didn't make the soccer team. What is, like, old John or kind of what do you think the kind of first instinct might be if instinct is just a repetition of our past?

Dr. John Delony 15:53 So my first job out of college was I was a high school basketball and track coach. So I, I think most parents', not most, many parents' instinct would be, "I'm gonna call the coach." I know enough that that's not... That's, that's futile. I wouldn't do that. But my first would be, "Well, what'd you do? Did you not... Or did you hustle everywhere?" Like, and... Or maybe the second one would be is, "I failed you. I should have put you in that camp. I should have let you join this other team. I should have, I should have, I should have," instead of just saying, "That's the worst. That's the worst," and just sitting in that.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 16:32 Just p- I want us to sit in that for a second because I think, again, it's so new, uh, I think for moms and dads, but I think that is new for dads, that, to say, sitting next to my kid, "I didn't make the team. Oh, that's the worst."

Dr. John Delony 16:48 It's the worst, and if, to, to use the old language, I am protecting you. I am providing for you, but I'm doing it differently, right?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 16:56 Yeah.

Dr. John Delony 16:57 I'm sitting with you.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 16:58 That's right.

Dr. John Delony 16:58 And you can't rattle me, but I'll be heartbroken with you. And then maybe 15 years from now, if the, your person you're engaged to breaks up with you, it'll be encoded in your nervous system, "I'm gonna go home, and my dad will just go fishing with me. He won't try to solve it. He'll just... He'll get the rods, and he'll meet me out somewhere," right?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 17:18 I think that, that's so, that's so powerful to make that connection because you're right. When our kids are older, there's no, quote, "coach to call." A- again, I, I'm not gonna call my kid's workplace when they're 20-something-

Dr. John Delony 17:28 Yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 17:29 ... and be like, "You didn't get my son a promotion."

Dr. John Delony 17:31 Hey, that happens.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 17:31 I'm sure it does.

Dr. John Delony 17:33 [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 17:33 I'm sure... I actually know it does-

Dr. John Delony 17:35 Yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 17:35 ... because in some ways we've unconsciously contracted with our kid for when you get upset, it is my job to make you happy. But then we shouldn't be surprised. Ironically, there is nothing like doing that or offering a quick fix that makes for a very fragile snowflake kid because that kid-

Dr. John Delony 17:52 Oh, my gosh

Dr. Becky Kennedy 17:52 ... when they get older is like, "Where is my dad who always calls the other coach and yells at him? Why are you not calling my boss and telling them-

Dr. John Delony 17:59 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 17:59 ... I should get a raise?" And you're like, "Oh, my goodness." But that is actually going to make for a much more fragile young adult than a dad-

Dr. John Delony 18:07 Bo- both-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 18:08 Mm-hmm

Dr. John Delony 18:08 ... I think in both ways. It's like running into the weight room and taking all the weight off the bar. Uh, because it's heavy, it hurts, and then they're not strong when they're 26. But the other thing I, I've learned, especially with my daughter, is when I run in to solve it, I am telling her, I always say behavior is a language, I am telling her, "I don't think you can handle this."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 18:30 Exactly.

Dr. John Delony 18:31 Which is the most disempowering thing I could tell my daughter.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 18:35 Yeah.

Dr. John Delony 18:35 "I don't th- I don't think you have it in you to handle this or to deal with this. I will solve this for you." And I can't think of a worse message I want my daughter taking into the world.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 18:44 That's right, and I think there are these two extremes. There's, like, the fixing extreme-

Dr. John Delony 18:48 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 18:48 ... which is one communication of, "I don't think you can handle this-

Dr. John Delony 18:51 Yes

Dr. Becky Kennedy 18:51 ... I'll fix it for you." The other extreme is what I think a lot of us grew up with, which was just a lot of invalidation.

Dr. John Delony 18:57 Screw your feelings. They don't matter.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 18:58 It's not a big deal.

Dr. John Delony 18:59 Just, ugh.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 18:59 Basketball schmasquetball. Which ironically also doesn't set up a kid to cope because the only way we cope with hard situations when we're older is we've built up skills.

Dr. John Delony 19:12 Right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 19:12 And if our only skill is I'm not supposed to feel this way, well, that stops working as an adult, 'cause you're like, "But my, I am feeling this way," [laughs] and so now I'm just in bed, or I'm just angry because I'm trying not to feel this when-

Dr. John Delony 19:24 Or alcohol works, eating works. Like, the all these different behaviors that can keep that stuff shoved down works.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 19:32 Temporarily, right.

Dr. John Delony 19:33 Uh, temporarily. That's right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 19:34 Yes.

Dr. John Delony 19:34 That's right. That's right, until it takes everything from you.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 19:36 That's exactly right.

Dr. John Delony 19:38 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 19:38 You know, uh, this is just making me, uh, making me think about something, where I feel like we have this obsession when we're upset with fault, where either it's my fault for feeling this way, or it's your fault for making me-

Dr. John Delony 19:53 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 19:54 ... feel this way.

Dr. John Delony 19:55 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 19:56 And when I hear you talk about fatherhood, there's a way to connect with your kids about not making basketball team where that feeling doesn't have to be anybody's fault.

Dr. John Delony 20:07 It just is. Did you even wanna be on that team?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 20:09 Mm-hmm.

Dr. John Delony 20:09 Or did I somehow give you some message? Here's an important one. My son, um... Like, we're a baseball fanatics. I grew up in Houston, like, the Astros were my team. I know they're not... You can't say that in, in New York.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 20:22 You can say that.

Dr. John Delony 20:23 But, um, my grandad loved baseball. He used to take me to games. My dad was a big baseball guy. I was a big baseball guy. And my son... And I ran track in college for a few years. My son is excellent at running, but he always played baseball, always played baseball, always played baseball. And in sixth grade, he called a family meeting, and I was like, "Already?" He's like, "Can I talk to you guys?" And he asked, um, "Hey, instead of playing baseball this spring, I was wondering if I could try out for the school play." And I did theater in college too, which was, which we were all excited, like, "Absolutely. That's amazing. It's, it's great." And then he walked out of the room, and I was like, "But Delony's played baseball. That's what we do." And I could not believe that it was in there. Similar, when I, uh, bought the... When we left Texas and moved to Nashville, I bought myself, as a present, the Major League Baseball tickets, so I could catch all the games. And Hank would always come say, "Dad, let's go play baseball." And I'd say, "Let's just watch the Astros." And then one day, not being manipulative, just, "Dad, do you love me as much as you love them?" It's off, right? 'Cause now you're s- he's starting to do the math.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 21:34 Yeah.

Dr. John Delony 21:34 And he's just trying to figure out where he sits, and it's not a move, but it was like, oh, all he wants is s- his old man to go outside and play.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 21:41 Wait, so that moment, you're sitting there and you're thinking, "Okay, but, like, he should play baseball. Like, we play baseball in this family," or even, I don't know, that's what boys do. They do... What... If, if we, like, pause that moment, what, what do you say to yourself literally? What do you do to not just, in some ways, act that out on your kid?

Dr. John Delony 22:02 I, uh... It's my job is to help them be the best version of themselves, not to make them Uncle Rico, like, rerun my childhood for me. You know what I mean? And to not do the things that I didn't get to do. That's not my job. And I think it's hard. I don't know any parent that doesn't stumble on that one, right?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 22:22 Yeah.

Dr. John Delony 22:22 Um, but at the same time, I wanna be the best version of what he wants to be. And I have... I've worked at universities long enough to know he can take sixth grade off, and if he hates the play, we'll be fi- You know what I mean? There's all this pressure that's just nonsense. So some of that's just, just knowing the downstream effect. But for me, it's knowing I'm gonna be the best, I'm gonna be the best theater dad there is.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 22:44 Mm-hmm.

Dr. John Delony 22:44 You know what I mean?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 22:45 Yeah.

Dr. John Delony 22:45 And I'm a... God help me, I'm gonna listen to that soundtrack on the way to work.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 22:48 Yeah.

Dr. John Delony 22:49 And I might wanna drive my car into the median, but I'm gonna f- I'm gonna listen to th- I, I'm gonna figure this out, um, because there's no greater, there's no greater cup of water in the desert than seeing your dad smiling real big and cheering you. You know what I mean?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 23:04 Nothing.

Dr. John Delony 23:04 There's just not, so.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 23:05 Nothing.

Dr. John Delony 23:06 Um.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 23:07 But, but the thing that you're aware of that I think isn't said enough is that shift, it is hard.

Dr. John Delony 23:14 It's the worst.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 23:14 Like, to sit there-

Dr. John Delony 23:15 It's the worst

Dr. Becky Kennedy 23:15 ... and to be like, "But I love skiing," "But I love lacrosse, and my kid isn't doing that," i- it's important to acknowledge that loss. That's okay to feel sad, to feel like I had this image of my son as this baseball player, and maybe that will happen, but maybe it doesn't, and it's okay to feel upset about that.

Dr. John Delony 23:35 That's right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 23:36 Right? Because we can't manage feelings we're not aware of. [laughs] And so if we get used to trying to avoid those feelings, we are just going to say the thing we don't actually wanna say at night. "Are you sure? Are you sure about the play? Are you sure?" You know.

Dr. John Delony 23:50 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 23:50 "Real boys do baseball," whatever, right?

Dr. John Delony 23:52 That's right. That's right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 23:52 And then even we go to bed, we're like, "Well, how do I say that?"

Dr. John Delony 23:54 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 23:55 How do I really feel?

Dr. John Delony 23:55 I, I didn't think that, yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 23:56 Yeah.

Dr. John Delony 23:56 There... You, you said the magic word, um, and it's an old glasserism, like, that we think in pictures, but we speak in words. And so often, without even thinking about it, I have a picture of what life's gonna look like. When we, when, when we, um, we experienced between Hank and Josephine, one miscarriage, two miscarriage, a third miscarriage, and what I didn't know, I didn't know that the moment my wife got that positive test- Just a picture emerges of what life's gonna look like. And so you're not only grieving loss in that moment, you have to grieve a picture that isn't-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 24:37 Mm-hmm

Dr. John Delony 24:38 ... there's not gonna be a Thanksgiving table with this many people at that table.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 24:41 That's right.

Dr. John Delony 24:41 Right? And so without even thinking about it, I had a world that we are gonna go to high school baseball games.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 24:49 Yeah.

Dr. John Delony 24:50 And that's what I'm grieving. Not that my son is awesome and likes this other stuff, right? And not that... I, I know in the, the, the v- the literal value, there's an ROI on young people who take a counseling course and take a theater course. On their job downstream, there's an actual ROI. I know there's value there.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 25:12 Mm.

Dr. John Delony 25:12 Because you have to put yourself in somebody else's shoes, and you have to work as a team and yada, yada, yada. I know all that's got benefit to it. But I had a picture that I didn't even mean to have. And I, I am constantly going back to, oh, I had a picture of what this was gonna look like. I had a picture of what my marriage was gonna look like. I had a picture of what my, me and my nine-year-old daughter were gonna do, and she doesn't wanna go sit in the deer blind with me in the, in the nowhere woods in Texas. She doesn't want to at all.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 25:39 Yeah.

Dr. John Delony 25:39 She actually wants X, Y, and Z. And so then I get to be the adult and say, "I'm gonna grieve that. I'm... It makes me sad." And then, "All right, dude, let's go do that thing."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 25:50 A- and I think that's so important to say. That first step-

Dr. John Delony 25:53 It's grief

Dr. Becky Kennedy 25:53 ... it has to happen.

Dr. John Delony 25:54 It's grief.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 25:54 That's not happening.

Dr. John Delony 25:55 And sadness.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 25:55 I'm allowed to be upset.

Dr. John Delony 25:57 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 25:57 That doesn't make me any less of an adult, a man, a woman. Like, we do have these images, and I think we don't even realize how many images we have of who our kid is going to be way before they're even born.

Dr. John Delony 26:06 It's a stream. Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 26:07 And I think even in those image or that, that movie, you know what else we don't picture? We don't picture how much effort it's going to take.

Dr. John Delony 26:15 No, just to get to that picture. [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 26:17 [laughs] To do that or to be the parent we wanna be.

Dr. John Delony 26:19 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 26:19 Like, I'm connected to my kid. We're... Okay, but now we're not at the baseball game together. I'm at the play, and I'm talking to my kid about the play, or I'm not talking about this thing I thought we were doing in Texas. Okay, so now that's new for me. Anything... Okay, so that's effortful. That feels awkward.

Dr. John Delony 26:33 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 26:34 I'm trying to think of what question to ask my kid when we're at the dinner table. We don't picture effort.

Dr. John Delony 26:40 The hard, yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 26:41 We don't.

Dr. John Delony 26:42 But that discomfort, most men I know have two acceptable responses: anger and blame or withdraw. That's it. That's the only two things you're allowed to do, is I'm just gonna sit here and say nothing, or I'm gonna, "You need to go tell the..." Right? And to get angry about it. And so I think it's, I think it's, again, it's just putting new tools in the toolkit. Yeah, you're allowed to be angry. Like, you thought your... You went to the tryouts. You thought your kid was the best. They weren't the best. But you thought they were. You'd be angry about that. And then from that moment on, teach your kid that their feelings are value... They're, they're, they're valued. And when they start blaming the refs or blaming the coach, we're gonna stop.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 27:24 I could not... I'm just like amen to that because this is, like, one of my-

Dr. John Delony 27:28 We're gonna stop

Dr. Becky Kennedy 27:28 ... I think that is the beginning-

Dr. John Delony 27:29 That's it

Dr. Becky Kennedy 27:30 ... of what we think of as kind of toxic-

Dr. John Delony 27:33 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 27:33 ... masculinity, which is essentially a kid... 'Cause I, I rarely see it in girls on the basketball court, but I see, I do see it in boys a lot. Essentially, they're saying, "I'm upset that I lost," but instead of feeling that-

Dr. John Delony 27:43 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 27:44 ... I turn it into, "Who did this to me?"

Dr. John Delony 27:47 Yes.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 27:47 The ref. If that player just pass me, passed me the ball, I would've made that three-pointer.

Dr. John Delony 27:51 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 27:51 You're like, "You've never made a three-pointer in your life." [laughs]

Dr. John Delony 27:53 Right. [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 27:53 You know? Um, and I think there's such power of any parent, but definitely a dad-

Dr. John Delony 27:58 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 27:58 ... of saying, "Hold on a second. You're upset you lost the game? Yeah, that makes sense." Kind of helping a kid, not quote making it their fault, but helping them-

Dr. John Delony 28:07 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 28:07 ... own their feeling.

Dr. John Delony 28:09 Mm-hmm. Well, and what I've noticed with my daughter, and this, again, I don't, I don't wanna overgeneralize, but she has that same feeling, but she blames herself. And I have, "Something's wrong with me."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 28:20 Yep.

Dr. John Delony 28:20 And it's this inward turn.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 28:22 Yep.

Dr. John Delony 28:22 And then sometimes for her, I'm like, "No, that ref blew that one. That ref blew that call."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 28:26 Yeah.

Dr. John Delony 28:27 "It's not the end of the day, end of time. Let's go get ice cream."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 28:30 Right.

Dr. John Delony 28:30 "But, um, you're still g- like, you're still my kid. Like, I got picked to be your dad, and that's all good." And so it's, uh, it's... I don't know. Every kid's different, but that's, that's what I see in my own house.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 28:43 Completely. All right, I wanna make this kind of end with some concrete things. What is one thing you t- you tell any parent, but definitely dads listening, who are like, "Okay, th- I, I do wanna shift," right? "And I get it, being emotionally present is, is going to make my kid more resilient."

Dr. John Delony 29:01 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 29:01 "I buy into the framework, but," like you said, "I don't have the language." Like, where did you start? Is there a time of day? Is there something you've said? Is there a way you showed up? What, what is one small shift a parent can make?

Dr. John Delony 29:13 Um, I think especially for dads, you have to have a group of men in your life that you can call and trust. When I was, I was an anxious wreck, and that's a whole other podcast, but, um, I wasn't well.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 29:24 Yeah.

Dr. John Delony 29:25 And a buddy of mine drove a couple hours. He had just had a new kid, and I had a new kid. I didn't find out until later that my wife had called him and said, "I'm worried about John." And he stood out on my driveway in the Texas heat listening to me ramble about how everything's coming down, and he's a finance guy. Like, same haircut since he was four. Like, loves spreadsheets. That's his, that's his love language. And he just said, "What you're saying is not true, and I don't know what to tell you, but you need to go talk to somebody." And it was that stoic, quiet statement was the first time I thought, "May- maybe it's me."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 30:00 Yeah.

Dr. John Delony 30:00 "Maybe I'm not all right." And my wife couldn't get through to me on that. My bosses couldn't get through to me on that. Every... The algorithm, everything I l- watch will just continue to tell me more about how-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 30:10 Yep

Dr. John Delony 30:10 ... it's somebody else's fault.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 30:11 Mm-hmm.

Dr. John Delony 30:12 Having a real person in my life that I trusted. Um, and so both I've been real fortunate, and it's been something that I curated for a long time, is having a group of men in my life that I trust, that, that will say, "We've been there, and hang on. Um, you think divorce is it? It's not right now. Like-" Don't, or, "Yeah, of c- course you're the problem here," or, "No, that doesn't sound right, man."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 30:36 Mm-hmm.

Dr. John Delony 30:37 Like, that doesn't sound right. But it's, it's... Here's what I know, and you know this. When I get activated, when I go to fight or flight, critical thing's off. I'm not. And so to make an overly masculine generalization, um, Special Forces guys don't go out without other people, without eyes in the sky, making sure they can see things they can't see. And so it's foolish of me to try to do something as important as parenting without other people saying, "Hey, I see you. You, you don't look well."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 31:02 Yeah.

Dr. John Delony 31:02 I was in Fort Worth the other night, and a couple of my old college buddies came out to a live event, and one of them said, "You don't look good, man. You look tired."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 31:08 Yeah.

Dr. John Delony 31:08 And I was like, "You're right." Only he could say that.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 31:11 Need that.

Dr. John Delony 31:11 I had a therapist who, she's like, she's... My wife calls her the Oracle. She's amazing. But, um, at one session, she said this. I answered her on a question she was asking me, and she goes, "You know what? I've been wondering. You are, you're smarter than me." And I was like, "Okay." And it w- it was kind of funny, and she said, "No, really. You've read more than I've read. You have an answer for everything. And so next time, when you come in, um, you're gonna say nothing, and we're just gonna sit." And I said, "I'm so smart. I know that therapy, you talk." And she said this. She goes, "Oh, you have an answer for everything, but you can't sit in my presence and be okay with you." And that's when I was like, "You can just leave," right? [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 31:58 Mm-hmm.

Dr. John Delony 31:58 Right? And I couldn't. And so an exercise, this sounds super cheesy, um, was to look in my bathroom mirror-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 32:06 Yep

Dr. John Delony 32:06 ... and put my fist in my chest and say, "I love this guy." And I couldn't say those words. I couldn't say those words. I could fight. I made good money. I have two PhDs. Like, I'd done all the stuff. I could not say that.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 32:19 Yeah.

Dr. John Delony 32:19 And that was coming out on my f- with my wife. It was coming out at work. It was coming out on my kids. It was coming out everywhere. And f- I don't know how it worked, but m- I know I track my heart rate, and I know that my heart rate settled down, and I know that my reactivity settled down, and I know my ability to learn new skills went way up-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 32:36 Yep

Dr. John Delony 32:37 ... when I stopped entering every room expecting everybody didn't like me as much as I didn't like me.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 32:42 Well, I think the practice of looking yourself in the mirror-

Dr. John Delony 32:45 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 32:46 ... even saying nothing, is, i-

Dr. John Delony 32:48 It's terrifying

Dr. Becky Kennedy 32:49 ... is a terrifying, vulnerable, and very resilience-building activity, 'cause you're kind of saying, "This is me and-

Dr. John Delony 32:55 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 32:55 ... just me being present."

Dr. John Delony 32:57 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 32:57 So if it's hard for you to be present with your kids and not fix, the answer probably-

Dr. John Delony 33:02 Yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 33:02 ... starts by actually learning how to be present yourself.

Dr. John Delony 33:04 And I had, I had to go do some stuff, too.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 33:06 Yeah.

Dr. John Delony 33:06 Right? I wasn't perfect.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 33:07 Totally. Yeah.

Dr. John Delony 33:07 I had to go make some changes.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 33:10 Okay, one last question. What do you want your kids to say about you when they're older, when they just go, "Oh, my dad," and then-

Dr. John Delony 33:16 Loves me.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 33:18 "My dad loves me."

Dr. John Delony 33:18 And the second one would be, "Oh, no, I can always go home." That's one of my core, core family values.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 33:25 Yeah. My dad loved me.

Dr. John Delony 33:26 My dad loved me, and I can always go home.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 33:29 And I can always go home.

Dr. John Delony 33:29 Yep.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 33:31 I think that's so-

Dr. John Delony 33:33 What's yours?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 33:33 ... super. My mom, my mom really supported me as I figured out who I was.

Dr. John Delony 33:43 Hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 33:44 You know, the other day, someone said to me, "Oh, does it give you so much pain, the idea that your kids will be on a therapist couch one day complaining about you?" And I, I really mean this, not... I, I would never want to deprive my kid of the opportunity of realizing all the things that I got wrong-

Dr. John Delony 33:59 Hmm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 33:59 ... or all the things that are not completely in line with how they wanna do things as they get older.

Dr. John Delony 34:04 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 34:04 I think that's what it means to be an adult, is looking back and hopefully was feeling loved and feeling like you had somewhere to go, but also feeling like you were supported in being an individual person, which at the end of the day means separating-

Dr. John Delony 34:17 Right. Yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 34:17 ... from your family and, and realizing the things that are maybe different, you know, uh, about you than, than from your family of origin. And so, but I, I think it's very similar. I want my kids to feel loved. I want them to feel supported in who they are, and meaning if there's somewhere you can always go back to, you're kind of inherently saying, "When I act out, when I do something that's different than the way they would've wanted me to-

Dr. John Delony 34:39 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 34:39 ... I, we still could stay connected."

Dr. John Delony 34:40 There's a place to go. Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 34:41 100%.

Dr. John Delony 34:42 Hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 34:43 Well, I hope this is not the last time we speak, and thank you for all the, all the work you do to help really redefine what, like, emotionally connected, strong fatherhood looks like, and I'm excited about all the possibilities ahead.

Dr. John Delony 34:57 Well, I appreciate it. And thank you for the work. Like, for real, it, it impacts my house. And you know this like I do, like, you're talking to this phone or you're talking to this camera, and then the cameras go off, and the lights go off, and then you just go about your day, and you wonder, like, "Are we doing anything? Am I doing anything?"

Dr. Becky Kennedy 35:14 Right. [laughs]

Dr. John Delony 35:14 You know, it's kind of, like, disorienting.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 35:16 Is anyone there?

Dr. John Delony 35:17 When you're, when you're, like, speaking at a live event, you can hear people laugh when... But yeah, it's disorienting. Just know that, like, in my house, when I'm out of tools, it's such a good resource. So thank you for that.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 35:28 Yeah.

Dr. John Delony 35:31 Yeah. [upbeat music]