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Good Inside with Dr. BeckyGood Inside with Dr. Becky

Revisit - How Dare You Speak to Me That Way

This is a repeat of an earlier episode. What happens when you want to do things differently than how you were raised and yet the people who raised you are intimately involved in raising your children? Is it more important to hold boundaries with your extended family or should you focus on other strategies? In this conversation, Dr. Becky talks with a mom about this exact situation. Get the Good Inside App by Dr. Becky: https://bit.ly/3zfUxQm Follow Dr. Becky on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drbeckyatgoodinside Sign up for our weekly email, Good Insider: https://www.goodinside.com/newsletter Order Dr. Becky's book, Good Inside: A Guide to Becoming the Parent You Want to Be, at goodinside.com/book or wherever you order your books. For a full transcript of the episode, go to goodinside.com/podcast To listen to Dr. Becky's TED Talk on repair visit https://www.ted.com/talks/becky_kennedy_the_single_most_important_parenting_strategy Today’s episode is brought to you by Airbnb:  Let's be honest, parenting is expensive, especially around the holidays. If you’re traveling over the holidays and have an empty home consider making a little extra income by becoming a host on Airbnb. Every little bit helps, especially during the holiday season! Being an Airbnb host means that you are providing another family with an amazing experience and it's a great way to earn some extra money for all the different things you wanna do. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb dot com slash host.

Dr. Becky KennedyhostUnnamed Momguest
Jan 7, 202550mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 0:02

    Intro

    1. BK

      [gentle music]

  2. 0:02 – 3:13

    A resolution reframe: Build change through “manageable moments”

    1. BK

      I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Good Inside. All right, it's January. It's a new year. It is that time a lot of us think about resolutions. And before we jump in, I wanna share a little reframe that I've been thinking about around resolutions. Most of us, definitely me, end the year in December feeling overwhelmed, feeling like there's so many things we wish we did differently, feeling like we didn't get it right. And then we enter January, and we have the hope, and the optimism, and kind of the blank slate of a new year. But then you know what we do to ourselves? We do resolutions, and we do them in a way that we go right back to feeling the way we did in December: overwhelmed, less than, not enough. We set goals for ourselves that frankly are unrealistic. Not unrealistic because we're not capable, unrealistic because they're based in some idea of perfection rather than in an idea of reality. So maybe we're going through a tough stage with our kids. They are being really rude. There's a lot of disrespect. We've been yelling. We say, "I'm not gonna yell for the month of January." Well, I don't know about you, but I can't not yell for the month of January. We say, "I'm gonna start out every day spending 30 minutes with my kid without my phone." Well, you know what? It might really help our kid to spend five minutes with them in the morning without our phone twice a week. I'm not talking about lowering the bar. I'm actually talking about building momentum. When we set what I refer to as manageable moments for ourselves, we're able to keep those moments. We're able to watch ourselves be capable. At the end of the day, we can say, "I did spend those five minutes. I did do exactly what I said. I didn't yell from 8:00 AM to 8:10 AM." And you know what that momentum does? It allows us to continue setting other manageable moments. We start to feel capable, and hopeful, and optimistic, which is the set of feelings we want to feel in January, and honestly, the set of feelings we need to cultivate to have bigger and bigger gains in our lives. And so please join me this year, out with resolutions, in with manageable moments. And as you listen to this episode, which is a classic episode, about disrespect, and rudeness, and defiance with Myleik Teele, please think about the one manageable idea you can take to create a new, optimistic, hopeful, manageable moment for yourself. [gentle music] We'll be back right after this. Hey,

  3. 3:13 – 4:20

    Good Inside membership: support beyond the podcast

    1. BK

      Good Inside listeners. So sometimes with parenting, a podcast does the trick. And sometimes with parenting, we need a bit more. And I wanted to be sure you knew that we're set up to help you in those trickier times. The Good Inside membership platform is your parenting encyclopedia, coupled with a community of parents and experts you trust, which means that no matter what you're going through, we've got you covered. And then we take it a step further, because I know that we're people who don't just want to solve a problem and return to baseline. We want to raise our baselines, right? And this is what we really do together: reduce triggers, learn to set boundaries, and access that sturdy leader that I know is inside all of us. It's all there when you're looking for that next step. And until then, please do check out goodinside.com/podcast. Scroll down to the Ask Dr. Becky section at the bottom and let me know what you wanna talk about in future podcast episodes. [upbeat music] Hi,

  4. 4:20 – 6:35

    Why “disrespect” is a tempting but limiting frame

    1. BK

      Myleik.

    2. UM

      Hello, Dr. Becky. I am ready to talk about one of my favorite topics-

    3. BK

      [sighs]

    4. UM

      ... of all kid time.

    5. BK

      Can you name it and frame it for us?

    6. UM

      Disrespect. Wow. Uh, I've had a journey, I feel like, with disrespect. I think in the very beginning, I had so many expectations of how I felt my child should treat me. I am putting a roof over your head. I am feeding you. I am clothing you, and I have expectations of you, you know? And [laughs] the more words they get, the more intense it starts to get. And then now it's just engaging with other parents, family members, watching my child do what he does, and, um, results in that conversation of like, "It's just so disrespectful. I don't remember it being like that back in my day."

    7. BK

      Yeah. I know one of the things we often talk about, right, is just a kid does something, right?

    8. UM

      Mm-hmm.

    9. BK

      So there's a behavior. That's the fact. And then one of the things I often think about is there's so many ways, actually, that we could look at a single moment or behavior. There's so many frames. Just like if we have... Uh, actually, this is perfect. You have a picture of something. There's infinite, in some ways, picture frames you could put the picture in. And I think we all know sometimes you put a different picture frame on the same picture, and it looks different. It actually makes you feel something different, even though the picture is, in theory, the same. And there's a framework of interpreting a child's behavior through the lens of disrespect.

    10. UM

      Yes.

    11. BK

      And I just wanna say as a start- I don't feel any pressure to say whether that's true or not true.

    12. UM

      Okay.

    13. BK

      Is it respectful? Is it disrespectful? Is it not disrespectful? To me, the thing I often like to think about is just is it useful?

    14. UM

      Mm.

    15. BK

      Is it effective? Based on where a kid is today and where we eventually want them to be, is the framework of disrespect going to get them, with my help, from point A to point B, or, or might it get in the way of getting to point B?

  5. 6:35 – 8:09

    The fast-forward fear: Treating a 5-year-old like they’re 25

    1. UM

      I think the hardest part, and you and I talk about this ad nauseam, it's so hard not to see your child as 25 when they're four or five.

    2. BK

      Yes.

    3. UM

      And you just think, "Oh my God, if they do this at their job or in, in their college classroom, you know, what's gonna happen? I have to stop this now."

    4. BK

      Yes. Yes. That fast-forward thought.

    5. UM

      Yes. [laughs]

    6. BK

      And actually, I know you talk about swim classes, and it is interesting, right? When we take our kids' behaviors, the hitting, the I hate you, whatever it is, out of that context, and I think about another way where we could have a fast-forward thought, where my kid is five, let's say, and they don't... Actually, my five-year-old isn't a great swimmer. He's really not.

    7. UM

      Mm-hmm.

    8. BK

      And if I think about him being 25 and being in, I don't know, some ocean with friends, like if he swims at 25 in an ocean the way he swims today in a training pool, yeah, he, he would die.

    9. UM

      Yeah.

    10. BK

      He would die.

    11. UM

      Yeah.

    12. BK

      But at the same time, I don't think coming down harshly on him for swimming-

    13. UM

      Mm-hmm

    14. BK

      ... "Hey, if you swim that way at age 25, you're gonna drown, you know that?" Like, I don't think anyone would say, "Becky, you, that is really helpful."

    15. UM

      Yeah.

    16. BK

      "That is really [laughs] useful." And so understanding our kids' behavior in their developmental stage, understanding, well, what helps someone get from point A to point B for swimming or for emotion regulation, and what is my role as the parent or really as the coach in either situation to get them there i- is critical.

  6. 8:09 – 9:10

    A critical context: Black parenting, safety, and higher stakes

    1. UM

      I'd like to add the Black parent caveat because I know that a lot of Black parents, we are feeling like we are wanting to save our kids' lives. And so-

    2. BK

      Yeah

    3. UM

      ... there's another layer of that where it's just like, "I am so worried that if you say this to the wrong person at the wrong time, your life is on the line." And so that is usually the big thing that I get if I'm out with, like, my peers or other Black families, and it's just like, "This is all fine and dandy, but how do you know that you're keeping your kid alive?"

    4. BK

      And I appreciate you adding that context. So you and I, as we parent our kids, we have different histories, we have different fears, we have different realities. We have very different realities for our fast-forward thoughts.

    5. UM

      Yeah.

    6. BK

      Maybe I'm thinking, "Oh, I don't want my son to get fired from a job," and maybe you're thinking, "I don't want my son to get killed when he's out and about."

    7. UM

      Right.

    8. BK

      Right? I mean, those, those are different.

    9. UM

      Completely.

    10. BK

      Yeah.

    11. UM

      Yeah. We're thinking of both, right? Like-

    12. BK

      Yeah

    13. UM

      ... I need you to stay safe [laughs] and employed.

  7. 9:10 – 12:20

    Real-life examples: coats, threats, and public humiliation

    1. BK

      And so might you have any examples from your own life with some challenging, could be interpreted as disrespectful behavior? Or should we just talk about other children?

    2. UM

      Yeah. Yeah. I mean-

    3. BK

      [laughs]

    4. UM

      ... my son gives me so much content and material just by the hour. You know, we had a situation where we had some friends over, new friends that Dad had made, and we are going to walk to the park from our house. And it's a little chilly, and I say, "It's getting late. We're all gonna put our coats on before we go to the park." My son says if he has to put his coat on, he's not going.

    5. BK

      Mm.

    6. UM

      And I say, you know, these are new parents [laughs] and I'm just trying to keep it low, and I said, "Okay, you know?" His dad said, "I'll stay in with him if he doesn't wanna go." So he goes inside, we start walking, and I get a text from Dad that says, "Yeah, he says he's gonna relax by the fireplace." And so I kind of just say to the family, "Yeah, my son's not gonna come," and one of the parents said, "The fact that he even has a choice," you know? And we started talking, and it's just this idea that you don't get a choice. If we have new guests and they're coming, it's disrespectful for you to not come. And so that's one, and then I'll give you another one. That is, you know, my son has said, "I'm gonna slap you in your face." And I mean, that would've gotten me, and anybody I know, that would've gotten them in a little bit of trouble. And then just because we're gonna have a third one, just at school I said, "Dad's gonna pick you up." Dad didn't pick him up. I walk in the class, "Becky, you liar."

    7. BK

      Mm.

    8. UM

      "You are a liar," and he screams at me in the class, all the way down the stairs, out the door. And I think he told me the next day that someone, an adult who had witnessed it, said they were gonna make him write an apology letter. He's terrified. He goes, "I can't even write a word." So [laughs] it's like in the context of school building, new friends-

    9. BK

      Yeah

    10. UM

      ... my home. I understand because I am consistently in this, working in the community with you and everyone else, but it, it's, it's not easy.

    11. BK

      No.

    12. UM

      And, and I, if you would have bet me, overachieving my league, "Would you have a kid that would tell you they would slap you in the face?" I would bet every dollar in my savings account never, and here I am.

    13. BK

      And here we are. So for some reason, the, um, example of, "I'm gonna slap you in your face"-

    14. UM

      Yeah

    15. BK

      ... is the loudest right now.

    16. UM

      Mm-hmm.

    17. BK

      But they're all kind of linked. So let's take that one.

    18. UM

      Mm-hmm.

    19. BK

      "Oh, Mom, I'm gonna slap you in the face." So the first thing I think that's just a good exercise, and everyone listening, I'm sure you have a kid who said something ... similar or maybe you're like, "That's weird that my kid said those exact words to me this morning." So probably in, in one bucket or the other. If you're in neither bucket, then I don't know, keep listening.

    20. UM

      [laughs]

  8. 12:20 – 18:53

    What the “disrespect” lens does to parents (and the relationship)

    1. BK

      I think it'll still be useful. Um, you will one day have a child who says those things. So I find when I say to myself, I'm picturing that as my son, right?

    2. UM

      Mm-hmm.

    3. BK

      My youngest would definitely say those words, and I just think, "You're so disrespectful. How disrespectful." Like, as I say those words, my, like, and you can see me, like, my eyes get, like, glary.

    4. UM

      Mm-hmm.

    5. BK

      Like, I am looking at my kid with the feeling, with the lens of like, "You are an awful person, and I basically hate you right now." I don't know. Does that, what about for you when you think about the lens of disrespect, "You're so disrespectful"?

    6. UM

      Yes, and, and I feel like there feels like hierarchy and power of like, to me? You are gonna talk to me.

    7. BK

      Mm.

    8. UM

      The person who does everything, you know?

    9. BK

      Does it feel like he doesn't appreciate you?

    10. UM

      Yes. Yes, it does. I feel so unappreciated. Like, does everything that I do, do you not see it, you know?

    11. BK

      Mm-hmm.

    12. UM

      And I also think when you add this work that I'm doing of like, I have never hit you. I have never hit you.

    13. BK

      Yes.

    14. UM

      I have never said anything like that to you. Where the hell did you get this from-

    15. BK

      Yeah

    16. UM

      ... that you're gonna talk to me like this?

    17. BK

      You've never hit him.

    18. UM

      Mm-mm.

    19. BK

      He is therefore, and this is multifaceted as I think about it, he's not as scared of you as he would be if you hit him.

    20. UM

      Oh. [laughs]

    21. BK

      Is that-

    22. UM

      I think-

    23. BK

      You think that's fair to say?

    24. UM

      I, it is, and, and I don't know that I even thought about that.

    25. BK

      Yeah, and as I say it, it seems like that can almost, like, be looked at. Okay, so if we don't, let's just say in a multitude of ways, scare our children-

    26. UM

      Mm-hmm

    27. BK

      ... through hitting them, through, I mean, there's also a lot of verbal, emotional ways-

    28. UM

      Yeah

    29. BK

      ... we can, like, terrify our kids. If we are not using that as a prime parenting strategy-

    30. UM

      Mm-hmm

  9. 18:53 – 22:24

    Why kids ‘act better’ for others: fear vs safety

    1. UM

      Question for you, because I know-

    2. BK

      Yeah

    3. UM

      ... that someone may wonder this. What about when they say, "Well, when my kid's with grandma or grandpa or with their dad-

    4. BK

      Mm-hmm

    5. UM

      ... or with their aunt, they don't do any of these things. It's as if they have more respect for them."

    6. BK

      Yeah. I think a couple things. First of all, I think sometimes when we say our kid has more respect for someone, we actually mean fear of them.

    7. UM

      Mm.

    8. BK

      Because if we define respect by a more limited range of behavior, which I have a feeling we do, I've never even consciously thought that, that a kid who's, quote, "respectful" kind of just means they stay in line behaviorally. Well, the more fearful you are of the person you're with, the more that fear will limit you. Now, fear, though, also means you are not developing any of the coping skills you actually need for life.

    9. UM

      Yeah.

    10. BK

      So, that's not great in the long run.

    11. UM

      Mm-hmm.

    12. BK

      So, I think that's one thing I would say, is when we say they have more respect for this person, do we really just mean do they have more fear, and they have a more limited range of behavior? And then the other thing I think I would add to that is we all express the widest range of kind of feelings with the people we feel safest with. We do.

    13. UM

      Yeah.

    14. BK

      And it's very inconvenient to be that safe adult for your kid, because hearing these words, being at that grocery store, it's one of the things I felt most unprepared for, is just how an inconvenient it is to parent young children. It is so inconvenient, so exhausting. They do so many annoying things. But all of those moments, I also believe if you're that safe adult for your kid, you have the biggest impact on your kid's life. If you're the adult that they're with when they feel, let's say, disappointed, jealous, anger, the feelings that are the hardest to manage, even for adults.

    15. UM

      Yeah.

    16. BK

      You're like the coach with the most impact. You're seeing the most in practice.

    17. UM

      Right.

    18. BK

      I think this lens of seeing kids, quote, "bad behavior," we have these choices almost. Like, do we see it as disrespect of me, or do I see it as kind of my kid having a hard time and them kind of showing me the skills they need to build for the rest of their life? [gentle music] You know that at Good Inside, we're always thinking about ways to make your life easier, and this extends to traveling, because nothing about traveling with kids is easy. That's why I'm so excited that Airbnb continues to partner with us. Airbnb makes it easier to travel as a family. Their different filters help me quickly find what I need without hours of scrolling, and now you can also use Airbnb to make a little extra income without a ton of extra effort. When you become a host on Airbnb, you can earn money while you're away. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.com/host.

    19. UM

      [gentle music]

  10. 22:24 – 26:34

    “I want a new mom”: translating extreme words into needs

    1. UM

      Now, of course, you know I have another, [laughs] I have another one.

    2. BK

      Good challenge. Good.

    3. UM

      So I have a... Yeah, so someone, as I was talking about this topic, someone brought up the idea that, that their daughter said to them, "I want a new mom."

    4. BK

      Mm-hmm.

    5. UM

      And she said that that felt disrespectful. And so, I don't know, that's not necessarily bad behavior, but I know that it definitely hurts your feelings, and when I think about feeling appreciated, probably you want a new mom.

    6. BK

      Yeah.

    7. UM

      You know? So, what might you say to that mom who's just like, you know, "She says she wants a new mom. I feel disrespected."

    8. BK

      Yeah. So, in a way, that doesn't seem that dissimilar to me from, "I'm gonna hit you in the face."

    9. UM

      Really?

    10. BK

      It really doesn't.

    11. UM

      Okay.

    12. BK

      Okay? And in both of those examples, I feel like we take our kids' words so literally.

    13. UM

      Yeah.

    14. BK

      And honestly, Miley, right, I'm sure you and I have arguments with our partners around this, too, when we're like, "Wait, I didn't actually mean... Like, [laughs] why, why did you take that at face value? I didn't mean that."

    15. UM

      Yeah.

    16. BK

      So us, too, we say things when we're overwhelmed with feelings. Our words are not the best kind of manifestation of what our needs are.

    17. UM

      Okay.

    18. BK

      They're usually not. So, if I think, "I want a new mom," it can mean a lot of things, and I think one of the things, if we really wanna help our kids, what we have to kind of learn to do, and it takes a ton of practice and it's so hard, is translate. Like, what might my kid mean?

    19. UM

      Ah.

    20. BK

      If I said to my partner, "I want a new husband"-

    21. UM

      Yikes

    22. BK

      ... you, you go with me, Miley. What do you think I'm saying?

    23. UM

      You may not be feeling seen. Um, absolutely you're frustrated. Uh-

    24. BK

      Yes

    25. UM

      ... I don't know. Like, I'm saying this, and I'm showing you something, and you are just not seeing me or hearing me clearly.

    26. BK

      100%. And in escalations of words, to me- The more desperate the word-

    27. UM

      Hmm

    28. BK

      ... the more desperate your plea is to be taken seriously.

    29. UM

      Yeah.

    30. BK

      Although it can usually evoke the opposite. The more desperate a kid's words, the more a parent is prone, understandably, to respond with invalidation. "That's such a ridiculous thing to say. You want a new mom? I do everything for you," which only then m- makes a kid kind of think unconsciously, "Well, I, I guess I have to escalate this further-

  11. 26:34 – 31:05

    Power struggles: the ‘disrespect’ frame leads to punishment and escalation

    1. BK

      ... to work on seeing our kids' tough moments through that lens 'cause let's walk through this. Your son, Malik, says to you, "I'm gonna hit you."

    2. UM

      Yeah.

    3. BK

      And let's walk through what happens when we see it only through the lens of this is so disrespectful. Like, what would someone do next-

    4. UM

      Right

    5. BK

      ... from that lens?

    6. UM

      Oh, "I'm going, I'm going to slap you in your face," is what he said.

    7. BK

      Yeah.

    8. UM

      It's like, "Oh, you're gonna slap me in my face?" You know? And then now I'm probably thinking of what I want to do to him, or now that he has said this to me, I wanna say something to hurt his feelings. You know, "If I'm not, gonna hit him," or, "I'll show you." When I was coming up, if I had ever said that, I probably would've got slapped first to like-

    9. BK

      Right

    10. UM

      ... "Oh, you think you're gonna slap me?" [laughs]

    11. BK

      Right.

    12. UM

      Yeah.

    13. BK

      Right.

    14. UM

      Yeah.

    15. BK

      So now we're in this mindset, it's me against you.

    16. UM

      Yep.

    17. BK

      You're awful.

    18. UM

      Yeah.

    19. BK

      I have to, like, prove my power-

    20. UM

      Yes

    21. BK

      ... to you.

    22. UM

      Mm-hmm.

    23. BK

      And, like, w- we are really against each other. "You're gonna slap me in my face?" Right. Uh, like you said, you feel like punishing them.

    24. UM

      Yeah.

    25. BK

      "I need to punish you." Okay. So then what? Something has led to a kid saying those words.

    26. UM

      And I think the hardest part as a parent is that it's h- like, for me, it felt like it was out of nowhere. Like, we are having a good day [laughs] and you just out of nowhere decide you're gonna slap me in my face. It wasn't like, "Oh, I told you we have to go somewhere," and I think that's the hard part when it comes to parenting, is that we want for one and one to equal two, but sometimes one part is missing, and now we're here, and I don't even know what to say. Um, like, how'd we get here? [laughs]

    27. BK

      Yeah.

    28. UM

      Which I feel like makes it harder because it's like this isn't even a home with drama. We don't even do that.

    29. BK

      Yeah.

    30. UM

      But yet you still-

  12. 31:05 – 38:11

    Skill-building over fear: pairing urges with boundaries

    1. BK

      So one of the first things that I think is powerful to say back to them is, "I would never let you do that," and I'm gonna explain more. "I'm gonna push you out the window. I would never let you do that, sweetie, because my job is to keep you safe, and actually, I know you're a really good kid, and you're having a hard time, so I would never let you-

    2. UM

      Mm

    3. BK

      ... hurt me in that way." And that might seem... I get it. It's like, "Oh, really? Like, I can't just say go to your room?" You know?

    4. UM

      [laughs]

    5. BK

      Like, 'cause that's a ridiculous thing to say. Here's why, because I promise, like I am the least soft... Like, even like the term gentle parenting-

    6. UM

      Yeah

    7. BK

      ... I hate. Like, please don't use that term with me.

    8. UM

      Yeah.

    9. BK

      Gentle is so far down the list of adjectives I would use to describe myself. [laughs]

    10. UM

      Right.

    11. BK

      Um, okay? Is our kids have an urge. An urge is like a want to do something, an urge to hit, an urge to hurt someone with your words, an urge to throw something, an urge to slap someone in the face. When our kids are older, they don't not have urges. Urges live in our body. They are human. They are just natural.

    12. UM

      Okay.

    13. BK

      The best we get is developing a circuit where our urge to hit someone is wired next to a boundary that kind of stops that urge from acting out and kind of can channel the urge maybe in a different way. Now, we want over time for our kids to have the urge to hit and not hit. Of course, that's the goal.

    14. UM

      Right. We don't wanna get rid of those urges because I think sometimes we feel like we do.

    15. BK

      Well, we can't, right? It's just like we can't beat our body. It's like asking an animal to like, "Can you just not wanna fight back when you think someone is attacking your cub?"

    16. UM

      Right.

    17. BK

      Like, it's just like we are living in, you know, based on animal defense states, the urge to attack, protect ourselves in that way. This is evolution.

    18. UM

      Right.

    19. BK

      Right?

    20. UM

      Right.

    21. BK

      And so kids say these things when they feel emotionally under attack.

    22. UM

      Mm-hmm.

    23. BK

      They do. Now, if we want our kids to learn how to stop their urges, here's actually how it works. They have an urge in their body, and before they can stop that urge from being acted on, they have to pair our boundary next to their urge because then what their body learns is, "I am able to have an urge, and watch, it didn't get acted out." And then when we pair our boundary next to their urge, over time, that's literally how a kid develops their own boundary-

    24. UM

      Right

    25. BK

      ... next to their urge. Our reactions to our kids' big feelings become their reactions to their big feelings. So this is not a way of saying, I would never say to my kid who says, "I'm gonna slap you in the face," "Oh, sweetie, feel your feelings. You're so amazing. Slap away." Of course not. But when I say, "Whoa, I would never let you do that. You're a good kid. You're having a hard time. You seem to be having energy in your hands. You know what? Let's go bang on the floor,"

    26. UM

      Yeah

    27. BK

      ... what my kid is learning is, "I have this feeling of wanting to do something powerful and harmful. I'm watching myself not do it, and now I'm developing something else I could do in its place."

    28. UM

      Yeah.

    29. BK

      There is nothing more helpful to an, I don't know, a 30-year-old and saying, "I'm gonna go in my boss's office, and I'm gonna really tell them off. Oh, I'm gonna not do that."

    30. UM

      Yeah.

  13. 38:11 – 43:08

    Why the silent treatment harms: psychological abandonment and self-blame

    1. UM

      Yeah. I... Small detour, the silent treatment, because I, I experienced the silent treatment my entire life, and I know parents who use it and find it to be more effective or, "Well, I'm not hitting them, and I'm not putting them in their room, but I'm not talking to them for a couple of days." And I just would like for [laughs] you to tell us why that's not a good idea.

    2. BK

      Yeah. You know, and again, I'm empathizing first with all the parents. Like, I think the thing I haven't said yet this conversation, there's no job that's more important and more challenging-

    3. UM

      No

    4. BK

      ... and more ongoing-

    5. UM

      On-

    6. BK

      ... than parenting.

    7. UM

      Yeah.

    8. BK

      It's not even 18 years. We know that, but let's even say it was.

    9. UM

      Right.

    10. BK

      Okay? Let's say we're done at 18, which we're not.

    11. UM

      Right.

    12. BK

      18 years nonstop, 'cause we know the job is overnight, okay?

    13. UM

      Yeah.

    14. BK

      18 years nonstop, like, hardest, most ongoing, most important job in the world that we are given no training, no education, no support.

    15. UM

      Right.

    16. BK

      That is messed up. The system is stacked against us. So any parent who's listening and thinking, "Oh, maybe I haven't done a good job," or, "I'm not doing what they say"-

    17. UM

      Right, right

    18. BK

      ... or, "What's wrong with the silent treatment? At least I'm not hitting my kid," like, I know Malik and I both, like, have just tremendous empathy.

    19. UM

      Complete, yes.

    20. BK

      Right?

    21. UM

      Yes.

    22. BK

      So I just, I just wanna, wanna state that, okay? So what's the issue with the s- with the silent treatment? You know, the silent treatment truly is, is psychological abandonment.

    23. UM

      Oh.

    24. BK

      Maybe it's not physical abandonment, so most people I know aren't saying, "Well, my kid has really acted out, so I'm putting them in a forest and driving them, driving away for-"

    25. UM

      Right, right

    26. BK

      ... you know, three days. But physical abandonment, psychological abandonment, they're really tied together for kids because kids depend on attachment with caregivers to survive. They're helpless. You know, in the animal kingdom, humans, like, we remain helpless for so many more years than any other species. So kids know in their bones, "I need my parent. I need their attachment. I need their proximity. I literally need their love and connection to survive and thrive." So the silent treatment, it really leaves a child feeling deserted, usually in the very moments that they are actually in desperate need of a caregiver. So they're in need of closeness. Instead, they feel ignored and alone.

    27. UM

      Right.

    28. BK

      And so what does a child do in that moment? Well, the only thing they can really do is fill themself with self-blame.

    29. UM

      Mm.

    30. BK

      And this is one of my favorite quotes of all time. Fairbairn wrote, right, "It is better to be a sinner in a world ruled by God than live in a world ruled by the devil." So what a child does at a young age is they preserve the goodness of their parents and take in all the badness. "I am so bad. Something is wrong with me. I am unlovable. I make bad things happen." Because they need to internalize fault to believe that their parents and really the world around them is safe and good. And so what does that do more long-term? Well, it wires kind of circuits in our body that say, "I am only lovable when I please others. When I struggle, I cannot need other people. My vulnerability will be met with rejection." And if we think about how those play out in adulthood-

  14. 43:08 – 46:57

    Boundaries clarified: they’re what you do, not what your child does

    1. BK

      So when our kid is saying, "I hate you. You're the worst mom. I need a different mom," what... A- again, like, you don't say to, "Oh, let's, like, have a tea party together."

    2. UM

      [laughs]

    3. BK

      Like, no, it's, like, such a, you know-

    4. UM

      Right

    5. BK

      ... awful match. But I might say, "You know what? I'm gonna carry you into a different room. I'm not gonna let you say these words in front of our whole f- like, you know, extended family, not because I'm embarrassed, but actually because, like, you're just gonna feed off that out of control energy. Like, this isn't a good look for you."

    6. UM

      Yeah.

    7. BK

      "So I'm going to help you."

    8. UM

      Big thing that I learned is that, that I have, like, in bold in my notes, I think you helped me better clarify what boundaries mean with my kids. You said, "Boundaries don't require our children to do anything." And sometimes when I throw that out, people are like, "What?" It's like, yeah, no, they don't require my kids to do anything. It's what I'm going to do. I am not going to let you slap me. I am going to-

    9. BK

      Yes

    10. UM

      ... move this out of your way. I'm gonna move this. I'm not going to let you hit me.

    11. BK

      Yeah.

    12. UM

      You know?

    13. BK

      Yes.

    14. UM

      I'm not going to let you talk to me like that.

    15. BK

      Exactly. Exactly. And then, again, even though it goes counter to how so many of us were raised, there is probably a safer way to express the urge or the feeling-

    16. UM

      Mm

    17. BK

      ... that they're currently expressing in not the best way. So a kid say, "I'm gonna kill you. I'm gonna drown you," right?

    18. UM

      Oh, yeah.

    19. BK

      Like, to me, I hear a five-year-old who's saying, "I wanna feel powerful. I wanna know I have impact in the world." So maybe later in the day, I don't know, I'll make sure to say things like, "Uh, what do you want for a snack? Do you want pretzels or, you know, uh, chips? Please don't say chips. Just don't... Oh, chips. Ugh."

    20. UM

      [laughs]

    21. BK

      "Okay, you say chips. I guess I have to get chips from the drawer," right? I'm just giving my kid here and there ways to feel more powerful-

    22. UM

      Ah, yes

    23. BK

      ... more impactful. Maybe in pretend play-

    24. UM

      Okay

    25. BK

      ... I might say, "Hey, oh, you're the dragon. Oh, dragons are scary. I'm scared of the dragon."

    26. UM

      [laughs]

    27. BK

      "You're so big. Oh, you're so big." And then maybe I say to my son, "What should I do now? What should... Oh, oh. Oh, the dragon's gonna get even scarier. Should I look scared? Oh, I should look scared, okay." So we're kind of both in on it. "Okay, I'm so scared," and I'm allowing my kid, which kids need to do, more opportunities to play around with their power, with their impact, which means actually they're less likely to need to express it when I'm picking them up from the classroom, right?

    28. UM

      Why do kids need to feel powerful, Dr. Becky? I... Why, why do they need this? Because I could see someone saying, "I don't really want that," you know? Or, "I don't think that's what I want." Why do, why do they need to?

    29. BK

      Our kids need kind of periods of feeling powerful, meaning feeling in touch with who they are, feeling like their own independent person. Feeling powerful is very linked with having self-worth.

    30. UM

      Mm.

  15. 46:57 – 50:47

    Holding both truths: safety in the world and safety at home (parents of color asterisk)

    1. BK

      Yes. Any last thoughts or kind of caveats or kind of, you know, again, I'm, I think we're both aware of this when we talk, we come from such different families. We have such different lived realities in America.

    2. UM

      Yes. Yes.

    3. BK

      I've, you know, come into this conversation with a lot of privilege around my race and the way I'm viewed and the lack of fear I have for my kids. And so I'm wondering even if there's anything on your mind now that you're like, "You know what? Let's add a little asterisk, Becky, for some of the things you said," that, you know, even for you, you're like, "Yeah, that doesn't apply to me as much."

    4. UM

      Yeah. You know, I think when we, we kicked this off, this idea of, like, keeping our kids safe, like you said something during this podcast, you know, like, "My job is to keep you safe."

    5. BK

      Yeah.

    6. UM

      And sometimes I know that when we are thinking about keeping our kids safe, it's just there's that added layer, and what if we're not there, and I need for you to be respectful, and just, you know-

    7. BK

      Yes

    8. UM

      ... there is this policing of Black kids with, like, respect. Like, even when we were out at the birthday party yesterday, I just see this, I see a Black dad, and I know why he's doing this. It's like forcing manners. "I need you to say excuse me," you know? And, and I grew up that way, and so I know, you know, if there, if there are parents of color listening, there is that asterisk. But I think something that's so important that you have said that has really helped me on my parenting journey is that I, I want my kids to be powerful and exercising their power, and there is a way that they can do both and in a way that I can keep them safe And that my home should be a place where they get to practice and they feel safe. And my, my home cannot mirror the world. Like, I know you are going to experience people who will treat you differently because of the way you look, and I don't wanna duplicate that at home so that you get practice. And I think that's just the big thing that I want for parents to know and to hear from me, that you can do both of these things, you know? In your home, your home can be safe, your kids can practice with you and be safe in the world.

    9. BK

      Thanks for listening. To share a story or ask me a question, go to goodinside.com/podcast. You could also write me at podcast@goodinside.com. Parenting is the hardest and most important job in the world, and parents deserve resources and support so they feel empowered, confident, and connected. I'm so excited to share Good Inside Membership, the first platform that brings together content and experts you trust with a global community of like-valued parents. It's totally game-changing. Good Inside with Dr. Becky is produced by Jesse Baker and Eric Nuzum at Magnificent Noise. Our production staff includes Sabrina Farhi, Julia Natt, and Kristin Mueller. I would also like to thank Eric Obelsky, Mary Panico, and the rest of the Good Inside team. And one last thing before I let you go. Let's end by placing our hands on our hearts and reminding ourselves, even as I struggle, and even as I have a hard time on the outside, I remain good inside. Today's episode is in partnership with Airbnb

Episode duration: 50:47

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