“She Can’t Play With Us!” and Other Tricky Friendship Moments

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   Intro

   1. BEDr. Becky0:00

      [typing]

2. 0:01 – 1:01

   Good Inside Membership: expert-guided parenting support

   1. BEDr. Becky0:01

      Why is it so hard to find reliable answers to parenting questions? How is it in 2022 parents still search on Google for answers from strangers? [typing] Well, now there's a better way. Introducing the Good Inside Membership, an expert-guided, community-powered platform redefining modern parenting. In our library, you'll find hundreds of bite-sized videos, articles, scripts, and workshops tackling the trickiest parenting topics, and it doesn't stop here. We've created a private community guided by me, Dr. Becky, and coaches trained in the Good Inside parenting method. Here, you can ask questions, connect with other parents, or attend a live event on a topic that matters to you. This is the parenting handbook that doesn't exist. This is parenting advice at your fingertips, where you need it, when you need it the most. This is Good Inside Membership. Hi, I'm Dr.

3. 1:01 – 2:37

   Series mission and episode focus: navigating peer dynamics

   1. BEDr. Becky1:01

      Becky, and this is Good Inside. I'm a clinical psychologist and mom of three on a mission to rethink the way we raise our children. I love translating deep thoughts about parenting into practical, actionable strategies that you can use in your home right away. One of my core beliefs is that we are all doing the best we can with the resources we have available to us in that moment, so even as we struggle and even as we are having a hard time on the outside, we remain good inside. In today's episode, we'll be talking all about peer dynamics. What happens when your kids say, "I don't like this person"? What happens when your kids don't like to play with someone and you're really good family friends with the parents? What is a parent's role in helping our kids navigate social dynamics? I've received so many voicemails on the topic of peer relationships, so I know it's on everyone's mind, and it is definitely on my mind this year as well. So with all of that in mind, let's jump in. [phone ringing] Our first caller is Katie.

   2. P1Parent 12:35

      [phone ringing]

4. 2:37 – 4:12

   Caller 1 (Katie): kindergarten recess exclusion and ‘running away’

   1. P1Parent 12:37

      Hi, Dr. Becky. Uh, my name is Katie, and I live in, um, Montclair, New Jersey, and I'm calling about my daughter who is five years old, um, and just started kindergarten. A specific situation I'm thinking of is with my daughter, um, that just happened during recess, uh, where she was playing with, um, one little girl, one friend in her class, and another friend from her class wanted to come and play with them, and, um, she didn't want to play with this other little girl and, and my daughter ran away and, and just played with another group, and, um, upset the, the, one of the little girls who wanted to play with her. And any tips or suggestions you have with talking to our kids about these situations or how to, you know, if we should not be talking to them about them and letting them handle these situations and if we should just be modeling the good behavior or what sort of behavior and empathy we want them to have, and, yeah, how should we be helping them? Because I think that this sort of situation happens, you know, for my daughter in this case she was the one who ran away, but the next day it could be her, um, that gets, you know, left out or, or who she's the one that someone doesn't wanna play with. And, um, I think that these, these situations and this dynamic between the girls changes every day, and, um, I just would love some tips on how to talk to her and talk about this stuff at home, um, and when, you know, an apology or recognition of her behavior is necessary, if at all.

5. 4:12 – 7:15

   Set the real goals: be a trusted thought partner + teach kids how to think

   1. BEDr. Becky4:12

      Hi, Katie. Thank you for calling in and for raising so many really important questions that I think are on so many parents' mind. What is our role in our kids' friendships? What happens when they report things that happened in school? What happens when we see things on the playground? Really, really important questions and something that'll be great for us to think through together. So a couple ideas on my mind. Number one, I think we have to consider what our goal is when we're talking to our kids about their peer interactions, so kind of taking a more zoomed-out perspective. Our kid is four. Our kid is seven. I think we all know that figuring out peer relationships is always tricky. It's tricky when you're in elementary school. It's tricky when you're in high school. It's tricky when you're an adult. It never gets to be completely easy, and so for me with my kids, my goal for them kind of involves two things. Number one, I really want to establish myself as someone they can continue to talk to about these things. It's not like I'm going to say one really smart thing, and then my daughter's going to think one day, "Wow, my mom said something so smart to me when I was seven, and I just figured out every peer interaction after that. She's amazing." That's never [laughs] going to happen, right? It's laughable. What I do hope gets almost embedded inside her is peer interactions can be tricky, and there's an adult in my family home who helps me think through those dynamics. I would ask us to all take that on as a goal because the best we can hope for is that our child continues to come to us as a thought partner to think through the situations that will always be tricky, and that also alleviates some of the pressure we put on ourselves to kinda say the right thing. What's the second goal I have? Well, it actually kind of relates to that first. I really wanna teach my kids how to think, not what to think. I actually don't think we can teach our kids what to think anyway, or if we are successful, we're actually controlling their thoughts, kind of doing something that makes our thoughts their thoughts, and that's not something I think is going to be successful in building their self-confidence or sense of self or the things that really matter in the long run. What does that mean, how to think? Well, I hope my kids, as they get older, learn to pause, learn to be curious, ask themselves more questions than they conclude immediate answers. So I would love one day if I overhear my child saying, "Yeah, I don't really know what my friend meant when they said that to me," versus, "Ugh, I think that person doesn't like me, and I don't wanna be friends with him either." Right? We wanna teach our kids how to think, how to pause, how to wonder, how to notice how things feel to them, how to kind of put data together, how to make decisions

6. 7:15 – 10:16

   Curiosity-led conversations: ‘naive scientist’ recaps instead of advice

   1. BEDr. Becky7:15

      for themselves that feel right rather than making a decision that seems to feel good to all their peers. And to do this, it's really a slow burn. It really involves us continually being part of these conversations and helping our kids ask more questions than have definitive answers. So what would that look like in a conversation with your daughter? I would say to really activate your curiosity. Remind yourself there's no right answers here, and I'm gonna actually go into this conversation with my daughter kind of as a naive scientist. That's always the mindset I try to adopt. So my child tells me, "Well, I didn't wanna play with this person, and she started crying, but I really didn't wanna do that. I wanna do this other activity." If I have all the answers, I might give advice. "Well, you could've said it this way. Well, how would you feel if someone said that they don't wanna play with you?" Right? I would be trying to guide my child toward a specific end. If I'm activating curiosity and I tell myself, "I don't have the answer. Let me just wonder with my child so my child can wonder with herself and learn to ask herself questions," I might say something like this: "Huh, that's interesting. Tell me more. Huh, and then what happened?" I might recap. "Oh, so they were playing on the slide, and you thought you wanted to play on the slide, and then something happened. You didn't wanna do the slide anymore, and you wanted to do soccer. Is that right? Hmm, something happened where you wanted to be on the slide. Another friend came over, you didn't, and you changed activities. Huh." Then pause. It's amazing how much our kids will share with us when we kind of just hold space for them, when we don't lead them somewhere, where we don't have any judgment, where we don't give them any explicit advice. We're really showing them through this recap, "I hear you. There's something important here, but you're the narrator of this story, not me." Why is this actually helpful to your child? Because what's going to be useful in peer interactions is not figuring out this moment on the slide but being able to think through, "Why do I like to do some activities and not others? What is it like for me when someone does get upset? Does that make me feel like I should've said something different? Does that make me feel like I did something wrong? Is there a way I could express myself that honors my needs and still is respectful to others?" We want our kids to wonder about things, and the more we're willing to ask questions, the more your kids will start to put things together in their own mind. Katie, I have a feeling that some of the other strategies I talk about in this episode will also be very relevant to you and your daughter, so keep listening. [instrumental music] [phone ringing] Let's hear from our next caller, Becky. [phone ringing]

7. 10:16 – 11:51

   Caller 2 (Becky): ‘I don’t want to play with him’ and the inclusivity dilemma

   1. P2Parent 210:16

      Hi, Dr. Becky. This is Becky. I live in Texas, and I have a four-year-old little boy. Um, I had a situation come up lately that I'm just kind of perplexed on exactly how to deal with it. My little boy just started school for the first time, and so, um, he is encountering all different kids that he's never encountered before. And, um, some of those kids I think are a little bit emotionally not as mature as him and, or socially maybe, actually. And, you know, honestly, my little boy is figuring out social interactions still, of course, too. But he has had two little boys that he has said something about not wanting to play with them and not wanting them to be invited to class playdates, not, and wanting to invite them to, like, a, a future party he could potentially have. And I just don't really know what to do about it 'cause I want him to grow up to be an inclusive person, um, to be kind to everyone, to be respectful of everyone. Um, and the teacher has said something about one time in class where he, um, didn't want one of those little boys to be able to come into an area and that she kind of intervened and... So I'm just perplexed on what to do about it, um, 'cause I want him to also have the freedom to choose his own friends and to establish really deep friendships. Um, but I'm just not sure what to do.

8. 11:51 – 15:24

   Normalize preferences + separate feelings from behaviors

   1. BEDr. Becky11:51

      Hi, Becky. First and foremost, great name. Just have to put that out there. But I promise I actually have some other things to add as well. I was really so excited to hear this voicemail because it raises so many things that I think are so important and that we often intervene with our kids from such a well-intentioned place when it comes to our kids not liking certain kids or not wanting to play with certain kids, and yet we often end up working against our long-term goals. So I wanna put a different framework on these comments our kids make. So your kid says to you, "I don't wanna have a playdate with Jason," or, "I don't like playing with Jason at school." It's okay. To like some people better than other people. And to say this more directly in terms of our kids, it's okay for our kids to like some kids better than they like other kids. I think we're so afraid to allow this to be true. It's as if we worry we're teaching some awful wrong lesson. I think we're teaching the right lesson. I don't know any of us who want our thirty-year-old kids to say, "Throw someone my way, would be happy to marry them. I really can't differentiate between people I really, really like inside and people I don't really like inside. They're all the same to me." This is definitely not what we want our kids to say, and we can't expect our adult kids to generate experiences that weren't allowed during their formative years. Now, another thing I have to add on here is we need to differentiate, as always, between feelings and behaviors. Here's the irony. We can't regulate feelings we don't allow ourselves to have, and kids are always asking parents if it's okay to have certain feelings. The more we allow a feeling, the more we can learn about it, the more we can actually help regulate that feeling, which makes it less likely to turn into behavior. What does this have to do with friendship and this made-up person, Jason? Well, the more we allow our kid to not wanna play with Jason, the less likely our kid is going to be to say nasty things to Jason. Why? Because if our kid is allowed to have that experience, it would lead to our saying things like, "Huh, there must be something about Jason that doesn't feel good. Tell me more about that. Oh, you're building towers, and it seems like whenever he's doing a tower with you, he knocks it down. That really doesn't feel good to you. Huh. Tell me the things you've tried in terms of talking to him. Oh, you've done that and that. Oh, I understand why you might not wanna build with Jason. I wonder how you could tell him that in a way that really does preserve your block building and also does it in a way that's as kind as possible." I'm teaching my kids such an important lesson, that it's okay to say no to people. It's okay to honor our feelings. Now, because I've allowed this experience, I can get to a place where I'm even role-playing how to say no to someone in a respectful way. If I don't allow this experience, my child has built no skills and maybe even has shame around this experience. Not building skills and adding shame is just a recipe for acting out behavior. What's the main point? We want our kids to be aware of how their body feels around different people. That's really

9. 15:24 – 15:55

   Replace ‘shutting down’ with ‘opening up’: explore the why and teach respectful ‘no’

   1. BEDr. Becky15:24

      adaptive in the long run. I think one way of summarizing this, Becky, 'cause I always like kind of quick phrases to hold onto, is let's replace shutting down with opening up. My kid says, "I don't wanna play with Jason." Shutting down would look like, "That's not nice. Jason likes to play with you. Come on, there's something you can do with him that's fun." Or, "We don't say things like that in this family." Those are shutting down responses. What's opening up? "Huh. I

10. 15:55 – 17:35

    Party invitations and fairness: adult decisions vs. child-sized gatherings

    1. BEDr. Becky15:55

       wonder what makes a kid someone you wanna play with versus someone you don't wanna play with. Huh, I wonder if something happened with Jason recently that didn't feel good. You must have a reason to be saying that. Let's figure this out together." Now, one more thing to add on. To me, this is a totally different conversation than whether I insist or not that we invite Jason to my child's birthday party, right? Let's say I'm having a birthday party and basically all the kids are invited. I would imagine saying to my child, "Here's the thing. We're inviting most of the kids in your class, and it just doesn't feel right to leave out two." Right? That's a decision I'm making. There's no shaming my kid. I'm not saying they're doing something wrong. I'm not saying they have to like having Jason at their party. I'm just making this decision because I'm an adult. Rather, I could also see a situation where my child says, "I don't wanna have everybody at my party. I wanna have three friends." And I would have to really check in with myself, I think, in that situation and say, "This probably isn't really a matter of being nice or mean or inclusive versus exclusive." Might it be okay to allow my child to have that version of a party and maybe even check in further and say, "What is it like for me to say no? What is it like for me to put up boundaries?" We actually need to kind of check in about those dynamics inside of us to be able to fully show up in a sturdy way to our kids. [on-hold music] And now to our final caller, Candace.

    2. P3Parent 317:33

       [on-hold music]

11. 17:35 – 19:04

    Caller 3 (Candace): family-friend playdates with an excluded child

    1. P3Parent 317:35

       Hi, Dr. Becky. My name is Candace, and I live in New York. I have two daughters, ages seven and five. I'm calling to ask for your guidance on a tricky situation regarding social dynamics amongst young children. Um, my two best friends and I have daughters around the same age, and every now and then, the three families will gather at a park or at someone's home. It tends to happen on more than one occasion that one of the girls, who's five years old and an only child, will get upset that no one is playing with her. I've asked my daughters after the playdate for their input on why they don't want to play with this child. The feedback I receive is that she is unfair, whines, and complains often. During these playdates, my children can come across as mean-spirited girls who reject and run away from this child. My children are usually firm on their feelings, and when something is uncomfortable, they make a choice to step away and don't want to engage. I don't want to have to force my children to play with her, as that doesn't foster natural play and socialization. However, not having these get-togethers doesn't make sense either, as us moms are all lifelong friends. Any thoughts you can share on navigating this sort of situation or things I can say to my children that may encourage them to feel comfortable about being more inclusive would be greatly appreciated.

12. 19:04 – 20:05

    Start with the parent’s feelings and grieve the ‘fantasy’ of easy group harmony

    1. BEDr. Becky19:04

       Hi, Candace. Ugh, I'm just kind of sighing because my first reaction is this just really stinks. Like, I just wanna name that. That, that stinks. Right? It stinks to have a best friend, two best friends, you wanna be together, you have daughters at the same age. It's kind of a dream come true until you see the reality and you think, "Oh my goodness, this is a nightmare." And it's so awkward, and I think it's so disappointing, and I think there's real loss there. It's loss of a fantasy, but that's still loss, and I wanna name that, and I'd actually really encourage you to give that to yourself, to really care about the feelings you have about the situation, both because those feelings matter, and also taking care of our own feelings helps us see things with greater clarity so that our own, if you will, stuff doesn't bleed into our interventions

13. 20:05 – 22:36

    Validate kids first, then collaborate on conditions that could help

    1. BEDr. Becky20:05

       with our kids. So just take a moment and say to yourself simply, "Wow, this is trickier than I wish it was. Oh, I really had this image of what this would be like, and it seems like all the elements are in place except for the reality of how things are. That stinks, and I'm allowed to feel sad about that, I'm allowed to feel mad about that, and I care about those feelings." Next, talk to your daughters. And when you talk to them, I'd validate what's happening for them first without suggesting that they have to behave in a different way. That's always a helpful way for anyone to approach us, right? By actually validating how we do feel, by being curious about how we do feel, about trying to understand how we do feel. What we're really doing there with someone then is we form a lot of what I call connection capital, right? And that allows for things to change or at least have the possibility of change. So what would that sound like? "Hey, you know what I'm thinking about? Tomorrow we're going to see," and then, you know, whatever the friend's name. "And here's what that means. It's something I'm looking forward to. It's my two best friends, and I know that's tricky because I know," right, whatever the daughter's name is, "is someone that you don't have the easiest time playing with." Now, if you notice in my language, there's no bad person. There's no one who's cruel. There's no blame. There's no shame. Even that phrase, she's someone you have a hard time having fun with. She's someone you have a hard time playing with. She's someone where it feels tricky to do anything that feels really good for a prolonged period of time. By giving this really generous interpretation, I'm maintaining connection with my daughters, and I might learn a little bit more. And also, I'm leaving open, I think, the possibility of movement here because I'm not provoking my kids' defensiveness. I'd pause after that. See what your kids say. If they don't say much, I'd go a little bit further. "Here's what I'm thinking about. I wonder if there's anything that could feel good even for a little bit, right? I wonder would it change things if, you know, when you guys play that board game, I play it with you? Would it change things if I say, 'You know what? Maybe we don't have to go for three hours. Let's just go to this house for

14. 22:36 – 25:08

    Role-plays, boundary-setting, and in-the-moment interventions during playdates

    1. BEDr. Becky22:36

       45 minutes'? I wonder because I'm trying to figure out a way to honor the family's desire to be with each other and your experience of what it's like to actually be with each other." Where could I see going from there? I might even see if my kids are open to a role play, right? Let's say they always end up getting into an argument about a certain game they play. I might try to mimic that and say, "Ugh, I wonder if there's a way you can say, 'I really don't like that.' That's said in a way you would be okay hearing it if someone said that to you. Hmm. Let's even practice that. I wonder how you react to my different ways of saying that. I don't wanna play with you anymore. I really don't like that. I really didn't like that. Hmm, so interesting." Isn't that interesting that we can tell someone something with strong words and still do it in a way that actually allows them to hear it because they don't feel kind of so blamed? That is so tricky to figure out, right? And again, I'm leading with validation, with empathy. There's a little skill building there, but nobody is in the bad kid role and nobody is wrong. Now, Candace, one of the things I'm aware of is this is all messier than it seems right here. So the other thing I would really kind of be prepared with is language for how to handle moments that feel really not so kind with your friend's daughter. So be prepared to say things like, "Hey, I need the two of you to come with me. We need to talk," and pull your kids out of the room if you notice something that feels really, really hurtful happening. Again, I don't wanna end up saying to my kids, "You girls are being so nasty. Can you be nice to her once?" Because that's actually gonna shut down your kids further. So I'd practice a way of setting a boundary. Maybe even review this with your daughters. "Hey, if things get to a point where they seem kind of out of control-" "I'm gonna ask the two of you to come into a room with me. You're not gonna be in trouble. You're not bad kids. This is just a way for us to kind of take a break and figure out a solution together." [gentle music] Thank you, Katie, Becky, and Candice for calling in and sharing stories from your home. Let's tie it all together

15. 25:08 – 28:21

    Wrap-up: three takeaways on curiosity, preferences, and dry runs

    1. BEDr. Becky25:08

       with three takeaways. One, when it comes to talking with your kids about peer dynamics, focus on activating your curiosity rather than solving problems or offering guidance right away. When we ask questions, we help our kids learn to ask themselves questions, and this is how they will learn to think through tricky social situations. Two, it's okay for our kids to like some kids better than other kids. We all like some adults better than other adults. Remind yourself, "This is a safe feeling. I can allow my kid to express these preferences, and actually, by talking it out with them, I make it less likely for them to say something rude or mean to the kids they don't prefer to be with." Three, dry runs and role plays are great strategies for tricky peer situations. If you know you're going to a situation where your child might be uncomfortable or your child has to go see someone that they often get into arguments with, mimic one of these situations in your own house. Model how to take a deep breath. Model for your child how to set a boundary firmly and kindly. Our kids learn so much when we're willing to practice situations with them. Plus, doing a dry run is really helpful for us in that it allows our body to get ready for a tricky situation to come, and therefore, it makes us less reactive and more likely to show up as the parent we wanna be. [gentle music] Thanks for listening to Good Inside. There are so many more strategies and tips I wanna share with you. Head to goodinside.com and sign up for Good Insider, my free weekly email with scripts and strategies delivered right to your inbox. And follow me on Instagram and Facebook, @drbeckyatgoodinside, for a daily dose of parenting and self-care ideas. Good Inside with Dr. Becky is produced by Beth Rowe and Marie Cecile Anderson, and executive produced by Erica Belsky and me, Dr. Becky. If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review it, or share this episode with a friend or family member as a way to start an important conversation. Let's end by placing our hands on our hearts and reminding ourselves, "Even as I struggle and even as I have a hard time on the outside, I remain good inside." [gentle music]

Episode duration: 28:27