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The New Fatherhood: “You Either Sort It Out or Pass It On” with Kevin Maguire

**The New Fatherhood: “You Either Sort It Out or Pass It On”** For generations, fathers were taught that their job was simple: protect, provide, preside. But what happens when those old rules no longer fit? In this conversation, Dr. Becky talks with writer and fatherhood advocate Kevin Maguire about the emotional transformation happening inside modern fatherhood — and why so many dads are trying to parent differently than they were parented themselves. They explore: - why presence matters more than ever in parenting - the hidden identity shift that happens when men become fathers - why play can feel surprisingly hard for dads - anger, emotional regulation, and repair - the pressure men feel to disconnect from vulnerability - paternal postpartum depression and why so few people talk about it - how healing ourselves changes the way we show up for our kids This is an honest, deeply human conversation about masculinity, parenting, emotions, and the courage it takes to break generational patterns. Thank you to our partners for making this episode possible: - Ole Henriksen: https://olehenriksen.com/collections/eyecare/products/banana-bright-eye-creme Use the code DRBECKY30 for 30% off the Banana Bright+ Eye Crème - Airbnb: https://click.pscrb.fm/2f: Host your home or book your next stay on Airbnb - Knix: https://knixteen.com/: Use the code GOODINSIDE for 15% off period underwear - Oso & Me: https://www.osoandme.com/Use the code OSOGOOD15 for 15% off clothes newborn through age ten

Kevin MaguireguestDr. Becky Kennedyhost
May 12, 202636mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 0:25

    Parenting as a mirror: the “issue isn’t with the child, it’s with us”

    1. KM

      So much of the time, the issue isn't with the child, the issue is with us, and we have to get out of the way. Oh, what I'm bringing to the table here is all of my baggage. You'll be forced to come to terms with so much that you haven't yet thought about and so many things that you've kind of put into that junk drawer, that emotional junk drawer that you have in the kitchen.

    2. BK

      [instrumental music]

  2. 0:25 – 2:23

    Why this conversation reframes dads as full protagonists, not “helpers”

    1. BK

      This is an episode about fatherhood. Now, if you're not a father, if you're a mother, if you're a grandparent, this is still for you because there's such an interesting perspective about fatherhood in this conversation that I think we'll all benefit from hearing. Today, I'm talking with Kevin Maguire. Kevin has the most successful, the biggest Substack on fatherhood. It's called The New Fatherhood, and now he has a book by the same name. For years, Kevin has written honestly about his experience around what happens when being achievement-oriented, when not even realizing you've kind of defined yourself by your job, and your job success kind of clashes with the demand of modern fatherhood, or even clashes with your own values on how you want to show up as a father. Now, before I go further, let me just say this is not an episode about how to be a good dad. There's not one definition of that. What I think is really important in this conversation with Kevin is Kevin and I both really see dads as the protagonist, as the driver. They're not an extra parent. They're not the substitute. They don't have to do things exactly like a mom does. And figuring out how to show up in a way that really feels good to you is kind of a new thing that a lot of fathers in previous generations weren't necessarily thinking about in the same way. I think there's a lot in this conversation that might surprise you, a way of thinking about feelings that kind of destroys the idea that feelings are soft, a way of thinking about, "I'm sorry," that challenges the idea that it reduces our power, and the surprise of what happens when you share your own vulnerable story. And maybe everything you fear that will happen not only doesn't come true, but maybe so many amazing, good things actually happen next. I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Good Inside. I'm so glad you're here.

  3. 2:23 – 3:04

    The wake-up moment: when work displaces presence at home

    1. KM

      And I remember, I remember this moment. I remember my daughter would've been about three years old, and she was, uh, like... And I was at the, I was at the kitchen. I was sending some emails, and she was like, "Daddy, Daddy, can you do this? Can you come and color with me? Can you come and play with me?" And I was like, "No, no. I have to, I have to do that. I have to send this email. I have to reply to this thing," all these stressful things I just was, that felt so important. And I had this realization that, you know, uh, right now she thinks I am the best person in the world, and that's not gonna last forever. You know, she's 11 now, and it's, I can see the kind of, like, the change in that she just wants to be with her friends. And there is that moment for dads that you can be there, you can be present, you... And, and I think a lot of dads just throw themselves back into work.

  4. 3:04 – 4:46

    Defining “old fatherhood”: Protect, Provide, Preside

    1. BK

      Uh, you know, there's so many things I wanna ask you, but let's actually start with the old fatherhood. Like, what is the old fatherhood? Just tell me what comes to mind.

    2. KM

      Yeah, of course. I think it's really, you know, we've, we've been following the same plan as dads for generations.

    3. BK

      Oh.

    4. KM

      And it really, I boil it down to the three Ps, okay? The old version of fatherhood is we were meant to do three things. We were there to protect, we were there to provide, and we were there to preside. We were there to be the boss over our family.

    5. BK

      Yeah. You know, the preside, it is such an interesting almost also... There's a little bit of passivity, too. I'm just presiding over, and it makes me think about all these memes I've been seeing for men around different things going on in the world, like, "I'm monitoring the situation." Like, "I'm monitoring. I'm p- [laughs] I'm presiding." It's kind of, "I'm watching. I'm not really participating," but there seems to feel something maybe important. But actually, maybe that was an old job, so I think we can honor that, monitoring and presiding, but maybe not anymore.

    6. KM

      But I think presiding's, like, it, it really speaks as well to the old role as the dad as disciplinarian.

    7. BK

      Yeah.

    8. KM

      Right? It's like you were the boss of the house. You were the man of the house, and you came home, you came home from work, and your main role wasn't to look after the kids. It was to kind of discipline them and, like, do what needed to be done.

    9. BK

      Yeah. A- and look, and I think, before I ask you about the new fatherhood, I always tell parents, first of all, all the generations before us, like, that's all had a big impact on us and what feels normal, even instinct. Like, I always think instinct is what we've learned till that point. And if fathers before you and before them, before them have all done something a certain way, that's gonna show up for you. It doesn't make you a bad person. It doesn't mean you don't wanna show up in a different way, but it's going to show up. Is that, is that right?

  5. 4:46 – 5:57

    What changed everything: dads being present at birth

    1. KM

      Absolutely. And it's these, and, uh, it's these narratives that we've inherited from, from our dads and from their dads and everything that's been passed on kind of before us. And I think, you know, what we see here in fatherhood for this generation of men and kind of what I've been seeing as I've been writing for dads over the last five years is really, like, we have been... I think the biggest shift that has happened in fatherhood over the past 50 years is men are now present for the birth of their child.

    2. BK

      Oh.

    3. KM

      Right? And i- you know, my dad wasn't present when I was born, and so many of those men weren't present. And I think when you, when you are there for that moment, you know, like, I remember my wife telling me sh- after, after the birth saying, "I don't think you'll ever see me in the same way again." And I said, "No, I won't, 'cause I saw what you did, and that was heroic."

    4. BK

      Mm.

    5. KM

      I, I called my mom, like, a, a few minutes afterwards to kind of tell her that she had-

    6. BK

      Ah

    7. KM

      ... another grandchild and I said, "I can't believe you did that for me." And I think just that visceral experience of kind of welcoming a child into the world, rather than being hidden away and kind of just having it handed over to you once the baby's all cleaned up and wrapped away, it just... I think that, like, that has just started to transform fatherhood completely.

  6. 5:57 – 8:05

    The “new fatherhood” is under construction: Presence and Play

    1. BK

      Protect, provide, preside. Uh, do, do we have three new Ps? Are they just different letters? Is it more complicated than that, the new fatherhood?

    2. KM

      I think, I think it's more complicated than that.

    3. BK

      Mm.

    4. KM

      It's like we're really still working it out. We're jumping out of the plane without a parachute, and we're assembling it on the way down. And it's really, you know, I think the, the... There is one P that doesn't really exist in fatherhood anymore, and historically it really did, which is presence. And I think when you think of the new fatherhood and when you think of the roles that dads are trying to play now, presence plays such an active role in, in really in just, like, in defining who you are as a dad.

    5. BK

      Yeah. You know, I'm thinking about another P the whole time that you're talking, so I just wanna put it out there. Play.

    6. KM

      Mm.

    7. BK

      How does that come into the new fatherhood?

    8. KM

      Well, it wasn't expected for dads. Dads weren't expected to play. You know, there was the classic, like, rough-and-tumble dad who would kind of, like-

    9. BK

      Right

    10. KM

      ... come home and roughhouse with their kids, but play wasn't really required. Uh, but it's so, it's encouraged now. I think there's a reason why dads around the world all love Bandit Healer so much.

    11. BK

      Talk to me about what you're hearing from dads around so many of them doing something for the first time in their, you know, kind of history.

    12. KM

      Yeah. I think, you know, this new generation of dads that exemplify the new fatherhood are really rewriting the playbook of what it means-

    13. BK

      Mm

    14. KM

      ... to be a dad today. And so much of that is around, like, you know, just how they show up for their kids. And I think there is so much... You know, my dad was one of the, was that generation that he prided himself on, you know, "I never cl- I never changed a diaper." And at the... And you think, and you, and you think, "My God, my poor mom." Like, my dad worked away five days a week. He kind of worked in construction. He, like, built motorways. He laid cable in the ground. And he came back at the weekends, and he just used whatever he had in the tank. And I think now with dads being able to more present, they can play. They can be more there. They, you know... Like, my, my kids are 11 and 6, and you know, I used to work an incredibly crest- stressful job. I was at Google for almost 10 years. You know, it was like s- if I wasn't at the office, I was kind of heads down. I was in my laptop.

  7. 8:05 – 9:36

    Two worst hours of the day: the pressure-cooker parenting windows

    1. BK

      Was there a moment, a morning, a night, a 2:00 AM panic thought that woke you up? You're like-

    2. KM

      Mm

    3. BK

      ... "Wait a second. I'm missing something that matters to me."

    4. KM

      It... Well, there was this... There was a realization that, I think, and, and so many and busy parents face this all the time, is that you try to be the best parent you can be in the two worst hours of the day, 7:00 AM to 8:00 AM [laughs] and 7:00 PM to 8:00 PM. And it's like those are the crunch pressure moments of, like, getting them up, getting them dressed, getting them in the bath, getting them fed. Everything is so intense, and you try and do the best parenting you can do in those tiny windows.

    5. BK

      Wow. H- I mean, I find myself in smaller ways saying, "This habit I'm in, is this a habit I chose, or is this just a pattern that k- kind of took over," right? It seems like you did that in a very big way. Are these my values? Is this how I want to be spending my time? Is this my story? Is this someone else's story? Um, and is it okay to kind of shift? So I'm, I'm thinking about the mom or the dad who's listening to this thinking, "Okay. What Kevin's saying really resonates with me. I want to be more present. I, I also feel like I'm down in my laptop doing my work even though some part of me or a big part of me says it's actually not the most important thing. But maybe for various reasons, I, I don't know if I can pick up and, and move," right? Um, I'm thinking about the dad who says, "Can, can b- can two things be true," right?

    6. KM

      Mm.

    7. BK

      So yeah, what are, what are your thoughts about that? Are there smaller shifts, um, that you've seen dads make to just feel like they can be a little bit more present in their kid's life?

  8. 9:36 – 10:29

    Untangling identity from job: returning from paternity leave changed

    1. KM

      You know, I, I, I coach a lot of dads, and so many men come to this place where they've had a kid. They go away on paternity leave. They come back, and everything feels different in the office. Something feels-

    2. BK

      Yeah

    3. KM

      ... a little bit off. It's kind of like that, that bit in, you know, the bit in the scary movie where you walk into the room and something's-

    4. BK

      Uh-huh

    5. KM

      ... not quite right, and the ominous-

    6. BK

      Yes

    7. KM

      ... music plays. And they come back to work, and they go, "Hang on a second. I... There were a lot of things I cared about a few weeks ago," or a few months ago if you get pat- gr- best- better paternity leave, which hopefully more and more people are doing. But you know, it's fa- the, the kind of, like, the new version of fatherhood isn't quite advanced in, in everywhere.

    8. BK

      Yeah.

    9. KM

      But they come back and they say, "Well, if this isn't it, then what is?" And I think untangling-

    10. BK

      Yeah

    11. KM

      ... the sense of who you are from the job that you do is the first step for a lot of dads in order to become the best father they can be.

  9. 10:29 – 13:44

    Leadership without shame: betting on the parent, not blaming the child

    1. BK

      And you know, it's interesting. It makes me think about a core principle, uh, kind of the Good Inside method, which is untangling your identity from your behavior, right? That's the whole idea of Good Inside, right? So for a kid, okay, my kid's hitting. In order to intervene successfully, I need to be able to say, "I have a good kid who's having a hard time. This is not a sociopath. [laughs] This is not a kid who's gonna be in jail forever." I need to be able to separate who they are inside from what they're doing outside, not to be permissive, but just so I can understand what the core issue is and help. And what you're saying is actually for dads, if you take that internally, something that's helpful for dads separate from parenting, but how they show up as a parent too, is I am not what I do either. Like, I am not my job. I am a good person who works at Google. I am not a Google level three, whatever the manager level is.

    2. KM

      Yeah.

    3. BK

      Because then, uh, I don't have any option to kind of shift. This is who I am, right? Which is really constraining, you're saying.

    4. KM

      Yeah, absolutely, and you just, you, you, you create your own boundaries that you sit inside. And there's a real, you know... And that's what so much of I've written in the book around. You know, there's one chapter, "You Are Not Your Job," and it completely is around, like, how do we separate ourselves from this? But you know, other parts where it's like, what is the work that needs to be done? So you know, I think what I love about Good Inside and kind of what I've taken on a lot as a parent is so much of the time the issue isn't with the child. The issue with is with us, and we have to get out of the way. You know, I th- you... There's been so many moments in the... You know, I've been a parent for over a decade now, and there have been so many, um- Let's say teachable moments for myself where I've realized that, oh, what I'm bringing to the table here is all of my baggage. You'll be forced to come to terms with so much that you haven't yet thought about, and so many things that you've kind of put into that junk drawer, that emotional junk drawer that you have in the kitchen.

    5. BK

      100%. I often think before someone decides to have a baby that the real question is, like, are you ready for everything that's unhealed about the last number of decades to come out before your eyes? I feel like most people would be like, "I don't think you heard me. I'm having a kid." And I'd be like, "Oh, I heard you. That's what it's really about."

    6. KM

      [laughs]

    7. BK

      Uh, you know, [laughs] like that's what... And, and the good news there, I think, and I always say this, uh, I think about a dad I, I used to see for a while, um, and he came in and he was talking to me about something with, like, you know, at that point he was like a seven-year-old. I'd seen him on and off for years, and he was just complaining. "You know, my kid's whining all the time. They're complaining all the time. I've worked so hard to give them this life." And, you know, we, we kind of paused. I heard it, and then we talked about what came up for him and, you know, different things. He just goes, "Becky, one time can you just tell me, like, I have, pardon my language, can you just tell me I have a shitty kid? One time can it just be my kid's fault?"

    8. KM

      Yeah.

    9. BK

      And he was, you know, we kind of laughed together, but I think the perspective that takes away the shame is I would bet on a dad any day over their seven-year-old. Like, it's not that you're causing the issue, but if you think about yourself and then you think about your three-year-old or your seven-year-old or your 17-year-old, like, it- it's powerful to say, "It's not that this is my fault, but I am in the position of responsibility," and that that's actually just a leadership mindset. I'm gonna bet on me-

    10. KM

      Yeah

    11. BK

      ... to kind of change the culture around here.

  10. 13:44 – 15:23

    Men, emotions, and the vulnerability trap: why empathy is the new strength

    1. KM

      Yeah, and I think we just don't have great role models as men.

    2. BK

      Yeah.

    3. KM

      We don't have great dads out there who are leading the way, who are being vulnerable, who are showing empathy.

    4. BK

      Yes.

    5. KM

      You know, even the language of emotion is centered in, you know, if someone is showing emotion, if a man is showing emotion, it's like, "Oh, don't... Grow a pair."

    6. BK

      Mm.

    7. KM

      Or if they're kind of not following the norms of the group, it's like-

    8. BK

      Yeah

    9. KM

      ... "You're a pussy." It's like all of the, like, being strong is masculine, being or being kind of weak is feminine, and I think... And men are trained to see, um-

    10. BK

      Yeah

    11. KM

      ... they're trained to see vulnerability as synonymous with weakness.

    12. BK

      Yep.

    13. KM

      It's like, and if you show vulnerability, this is something that someone else in the workplace can use to get ahead of you, to kind of-

    14. BK

      Yeah

    15. KM

      ... someone who's more ambitious can kind of, can climb the ladder because they know your weakness.

    16. BK

      Yep.

    17. KM

      So we train ourselves to hide these things away. We, we take our soft spots and we just hide them away and we make sure no one can see them.

    18. BK

      Yeah.

    19. KM

      And I think what the, what, what a big core part of the new fatherhood is, like, okay, well, how can you show up? How can you be vulnerable? How can you really, like... 'Cause what our kids are looking for more and more isn't physical strength. You know, my, my, my daughter, she's, you know, she's in adolescence. She's about to become a teenager. It's like she needs me to understand her. She needs empathy.

    20. BK

      Yeah.

    21. KM

      She needs love. She doesn't need, like, these old models of what it meant to be a dad, you know, in 50, 100 years ago.

    22. BK

      Can you drop down into a moment there? Because vulnerable, emotion, presence, connection, not fixing. Like, just bring that alive with something almost absurdly hyper-specific, just so we can talk about a, a real moment.

  11. 15:23 – 18:26

    A hyper-specific story: paternal postpartum depression and hidden coping

    1. KM

      Well, I mean, you know, the, the re- the gestation of the new fatherhood, it began... So my son is six years old now, and, um, s- so about a few months after he was born, I, I would take myself out. I would, you know, once he was in bed, I would take the dog. I had this sad-looking basset hound. I would take him out and we would just go for a walk, and I would go on my own. I would go far enough away that no one would notice, no one would know who I was, uh, but not far enough away that I would arouse suspicion at home, and I would sit down and I would cry just to myself. And I would cry because I didn't love my son, and I didn't know what was going on. And it was, with hindsight, I was, I feel very fortunate that it was my second child, and I knew that something was different this time around. And, you know, I was trying to find out what was going on. I was lying in bed Googling things of, uh, you know, at 3:00 in the morning, be like, "Why am I sad, new dad?" And I kind of came upon this, um, this notion of paternal postpartum depression. I had friends get in touch and say, "Oh, wow. I never-"

    2. BK

      Hm

    3. KM

      ... "realized that that's what that was." And, and actually the symptoms, how it presents in men is there are a lot of similarities, but the symptoms of how it presents in men is it pushes addictive tendencies to the foreground.

    4. BK

      Mm-hmm.

    5. KM

      So alcohol-

    6. BK

      Uh-huh

    7. KM

      ... drugs, gambling, sex. For me, I feel really lucky in that I just, I got hooked on a video game [laughs] which is the wildest thing to think about. And, but I just, I would sit up and stay up till 4:00 in the morning, and it was a sense of, it was a sense of, like, having some control over a situation where I felt, you know, I really felt my son would never stop crying. And he, in hindsight, of course he wasn't crying all the time. He was just, like, that's what it felt like to me. And in doing that work and really understanding... You know, I think a lot about this, um, the Japanese art, Kintsugi, with the broken pots.

    8. BK

      Yes.

    9. KM

      And you use the golden, you use the golden kind of clay to seal it together, and it's more beautiful than it ever was. And I really think about my experience with paternal postpartum depression and the vulnerability that I've kind of had to learn to share and to show because I know it helps other dads out there. I know that the more that we talk about these things together, the, the better we can be for our partners, for our kids, the better we can show up for each other and for ourselves.

    10. BK

      Yeah. But, but also I think it's interesting, uh, first of all, thank you for, thank you for sharing that with me, with everyone. Uh, there's nothing like a story, you know, that makes us know we're not alone and there's nothing wrong with us, so I really appreciate that. And it's interesting we got on this thread and we were talking about kind of showing up for your kids emotionally because I, I think actually it's really significant. If we, mom or dad, are not developing a relationship with our own internal life, our own feelings, things that feel really hard internally for us, it- it's, it's kind of impossible to expect that I'm gonna be able to show up for my kid.

    11. KM

      Yeah.

  12. 18:26 – 24:46

    Emotional skills as a life unlock: anger, empathy, and the space to choose

    1. BK

      Like, right? And then I think, Kevin, the thing you so beautifully always write about, and, and this I think is the bigger picture, is when we do that, the benefit is not just in the relationship with your kid. Uh, I mean, your mental health is going to be stronger, your relationship with a partner, your relationships at work. Like, when we work on things with our kids, it, it, it shows up, I think, in the most positive ways.

    2. KM

      Oh, yeah.

    3. BK

      In ways we didn't expect. Someone's like, "You know what? My..." Someone actually told me this, "My manager ratings are higher at work than ever since I've been working on showing up in a different way with my kid. Is that weird?" And I go, "I, I actually think it's perfectly predictable." [laughs]

    4. KM

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    5. BK

      Right?

    6. KM

      Well, it's, uh, you know, I, I... Th- this is when I, when I talk about the transformative power of fatherhood, it's not just allowing you to be a better dad at home, it's every single... It, it's an unlock for every aspect of your life. Like, so many dads that I talk to and I work with and they say, "You know what? I'm, I've been able to find joy in tiny moments of like in that gap between when my kid is losing it." You know, there's that, the, you know, s- for so many men, anger is an issue, right? And it's like, and it's an inherited issue, and we've watched our dads blow up and lose their tempers, and we're trying to learn how not to do it for ourselves. And so much of this is just, like, just finding that tiny slither of space and time between action, between reaction and action.

    7. BK

      Yep.

    8. KM

      Between the kind of thing that we feel and the next step that we take. And, uh, you know, like, and, and that for me is like when you learn to feel more, you can... You know, there's that great line, I c- I come back to it all the time, I never forget it, and when the... It's when your child is having a meltdown, it's, uh, they're not having a har- they're not giving you a hard time, they're having a hard time. And for men, it's like this instant shot of empathy to the heart. You straightaway feel, "Oh, you know what? I, I can't be mad at this kid right now because he, he's, like, going through it, and I just need to give him a hug and let him know that I understand and I'm there for him."

    9. BK

      S- so, uh, so many things I want to double click on. One thing, just 'cause I think it's a really powerful slight shift, is I would actually say to someone, anger is never the problem. Anger is a completely healthy emotion. Anger is the emotion that tells us what we care about, what we need, what we want. It's the key to then self-concept and self-respect. The issue is unregulated anger, unmanaged anger, and actually learning how to regulate anger starts with looking for it and kind of befriending it and listening to it before it becomes a volcano. And so I just always like to clarify that because it... Uh, you know, I said this recently, uh, you know, a- and I, I, I happened to say this to a dad and he said it really resonated. I said, "Feelings are information."

    10. KM

      Mm-hmm.

    11. BK

      Think about the best CEO in the world. They want information. Certain information is overwhelming. Right now, everything about AI and the workforce, that is overwhelming information, but no great CEO I know would say, "Don't tell me about it. Make it go away."

    12. KM

      [laughs]

    13. BK

      Uh, you know? What they would say is, "You know what? I am overwhelmed thinking about this, but my job is to work on the overwhelm so I can use the information-

    14. KM

      Mm

    15. BK

      ... wisely." And if you think about anger or jealousy in yourself or in your kid that same way, it kind of becomes obvious why feelings aren't soft. Or even we say they're vulnerable, it's just a guess, but i- if you think about it as information, it, it, it, it kind of makes sense in a different framework.

    16. KM

      But also as boys, we're trained not to feel.

    17. BK

      Which it means you're trained not to have a lot of information from your body.

    18. KM

      [laughs] And I think we have to, we have to learn, like, as men now, we're going, "Okay, well, what does it mean to feel? What does it mean to be able to be in touch with these emotions?" You know, for, for me, a big... When I, when I ha- when I was dealing with the paternal postpartum depression, I started working with a therapist as, like, you know, hugely helpful, big unlock. And I think, I remember, I rem- she said, "Why, why won't you let yourself be angry? These are very normal-

    19. BK

      Ah

    20. KM

      ... times to be angry." And I s- and, and I just said, I said, "Well, because I, I'm scared of hitting my kid."

    21. BK

      Yeah. Oh.

    22. KM

      And, and, and she said, in a moment, she said, "You know that anger and violence are not the same thing?" And it felt like she'd kind of opened my head up and taken these two wires and uncrossed them and went, "You know what? They, those two things aren't connected." And, and it was just huge unlock. And for me, I, I, I learned, I'm like, "Oh, you know what? It's okay to be angry." I have now, I like to think of, like, I have an anger threshold.

    23. BK

      Yes. Yes.

    24. KM

      That if, if something crosses there, it's like, "I'm gonna get angry." And I, and I warn my kids, so I'm going, "Hey, I'm pretty close here. Do you want to keep pushing this? Because I'm ready to keep pushing it if you are." And most of the time, it's, it, it works and they b- uh, we, we, we, we come to a better place.

    25. BK

      And, and I think that's exactly what I'm saying, like, violence is behavior that happens because I cannot regulate the anger in my body. But I kinda picture anger in our body saying [laughs] like, "Why are you always blaming me? The issue is the lack of skills. Like, stop blaming me."

    26. KM

      Mm. Mm-hmm.

    27. BK

      "I, I'm just trying to tell you what you care about." Because anger is the thing that lets me say to my kid, as an example, "No, you can't have a sleepover tomorrow night." "Why? It's Saturday." "Because I know I'm so tired. I need a good night's sleep, and I know for that day, if I have an extra kid there and people wake up early, I am going to not be in a good place." That's not good for anyone. But the anger actually is a little bit felt to me then, which is why I set a boundary. If I don't let myself feel it then, you know what I'm gonna do? "Okay, sure." And then I'm gonna- ... react. I'm gonna yell when I don't want to. I'm gonna say, "What's wrong with me?" But the anger wasn't the problem. It probably was only the issue that I couldn't hear it when it was at a level two, so it had to explode out as a level 10.

    28. KM

      Or what, or what a lot of, or what a lot of parents will do, and not to say that the, the alcohol is the enemy or anything like that, but it's like they'll just drink to numb those feelings.

    29. BK

      Yes.

    30. KM

      It's like, "Well, I don't wanna allow myself to kind of feel angry. I don't wanna sit in that uncomfortable emotion, so I will just, like, open another bottle of wine."

  13. 24:46 – 30:51

    Repair and breaking the cycle: apologizing without losing authority

    1. BK

      Exactly. So on the topic of anger, though, here's something I really wanted to ask you about. I, I think I, I like this framework that it's not really anger, it's our unregulated anger, so we need skills to manage it, and me too. It, it's not like I always have access to those skills. I'm gonna do the thing sometimes I regret. I love talking about repair. It's such a big part of Good Inside, right? I always think we want to try to show up the way we want a little more often, but then repair a heck of a lot more often, right? Knowing we're never gonna get it right all the time. Do you find repair, "I'm sorry I yelled. That wasn't okay. I love you," some version of that, is that harder for dads?

    2. KM

      Hmm. It is [laughs] I think generally, like, it is, it's very hard to admit you are wrong. In any circumstance, whether it's dads, moms, kids, it's very hard to admit you're wrong. It's very hard to admit you're wrong in the moment of especially kind of blowing up and being angry. I, you know, for me, it ties back to that idea of I wanna do things differently, you know?

    3. BK

      Mm.

    4. KM

      I think about this shift in fatherhood, and I think about all the generations of men who came before me and all the generations of men who just passed down what was passed down to them again and again and again. And I know that in this moment, like, the easiest thing would be to just pass it on again. It would be to close that kitchen drawer with all the junk and say, "You know what? Like, they can deal with it when they're older." Uh, but I [laughs] like, I can't do that. It's like, I, I, and I think this is what you're seeing in this generation of men now, that men are taking a much more, um, conscious role in what they choose to pass on and what they choose to kind of s- say, "The book stops here, and this goes no further." And really it is, you know, like I, I am l- I'm learning. I'm a work in progress, I think, as we all are, and I... Am I the perfect parent? No, I'm not even close. Like, do I lose my temper at my kids? Do I... You know, my, my, my MO is not so much to lose my temper, but to just avoid. That's my conflict style.

    5. BK

      Uh, uh-huh.

    6. KM

      Like, I, I go away. I kind of disappear and shrink away. And, like, and, and as I've kind of c- as I've got a little bit more comfortable with anger as an emotion, with kind of, you know, getting to this place where, okay, this is a, this is a, you know, like, a selection box of different types of feelings that I can go, "All right. I can feel all of these things, and it's okay to feel these things," even if it does mean, you know, like, losing my temper with my kid or my child getting upset, that you just, you do have to turn around and say, "Listen, I, in that situation, I'm sorry, and I didn't act or behave how I should have done." I think we, you know, you write about this so, so g- so well. It's, it, we can't expect our kids to do the things that we won't do ourselves. It's, you know, [laughs] "Do as I say-

    7. BK

      I'm just putting my-

    8. KM

      ... not do as I do."

    9. BK

      It's so hard. Literally this morning, okay, I, I was short with my kids. I, I was stressed. I get up early. I'm doing my work. I had a thought. I couldn't finish it. I was kind of annoyed. It was breakfast time, and my kids came out of the room, although they're perfectly on schedule. It just was a collision of needs. And so I was short with them. I snapped. And actually, right before they got on the bus, it was funny, I said these three lines: "This morning was rough. I'm sorry I yelled. I love you." Right? It's simple.

    10. KM

      Right.

    11. BK

      But before I did that, I, I just wanna be honest, like, my thought process never changes. I was like, "My kids owe me an apology. My kids-

    12. KM

      [laughs]

    13. BK

      ... they owe me an apology. Like, they could have done this. And honestly, I tell them they can come out at 7:00. They came out at 6:57. That's why I yelled. It's 'cause of the three minutes." Like, I have a whole story. And I don't know why I do think about sports a lot as metaphors, because I think it becomes so obvious what good coaching is. And I pictured, before my kids got on the bus, a team with horrible sportsmanship. They taunt everyone when they're winning. They're tripping people when they're losing. They're blaming the ref. And then you see the coach who's doing the same thing. And then your c- coach is consulting you, Kevin, saying, "My players, let me tell you, are they bad sports." And you'd probably be like, "Well, I mean, I've, you know..." And I can't imagine a coach that anyone would want would think, "Well, they owe me an apology first. They have to change their behavior first." You'd say like, "What planet are you living in?" Like, right? And I really thought about that, and I was like, "I'm the coach. The truth is, my kids are a little challenging, but I wonder if I really want them to have accountability, I, I, I guess I gotta kinda do the accountability [laughs] first."

    14. KM

      Yeah.

    15. BK

      And it, and I just wanna name, it is annoying. It's annoying, and we all have righteous indignation after we yell. We go into the, "My kid owes me this, and if they didn't do this." And so I just think there's a humor to that. Like, "Oh, there I go. Not useful. Let me be the best basketball coach I can be."

    16. KM

      Mm-hmm.

    17. BK

      And that, that really helped me show up-

    18. KM

      Yeah

    19. BK

      ... in a little different way and repair this morning.

    20. KM

      Yeah. 'Cause you could've dug your heels in and said, "I will not apologize until they apologize first." And actually, you're going-

    21. BK

      Yeah. [laughs]

    22. KM

      ... "Hang on a second. You know, my son is six.

    23. BK

      Yeah. [laughs]

    24. KM

      How does he even know that he, like, he's done something wrong? He, like, you know, and he should apologize and da, da, da." And if I'm sitting there stewing, and actually you just... You know, what I see with my kids all the time, and I struggle with this genuinely, is they can flip from s- incredibly happy to a ball of rage and back happy again in the space of two minutes. And if I lose my temper, the day is done. Like, maybe the whole week is done. Like, if I've really lost it, it takes a long time for me to kind of get back to that baseline. And I, and I look at them and go, "Well- I shouldn't be expecting them to be able to stay at this baseline all the time, and I shouldn't be expecting them to be the ones who are leaning forward and saying, you know, "Hey, I'm so sorry that it took me a little bit longer to put my shoes on. It took me a little bit longer to do..." I think so much of stress, in the mornings especially, but just with children in general, and especially young kids under five, so much of the stress that we experience is when they don't adhere to the schedule that we have created

  14. 30:51 – 34:19

    Bridge-building with kids (and why dads matter from day one)

    1. BK

      A- and I think there's such a happy in between there, because it's true, kids, and we both are post the under five-year-old-

    2. KM

      Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

    3. BK

      ... stage, and I just wanna say congratulations to both of us, because those are hard years. Okay? So that's just number one. [laughs] We did it. Number two, kids do live in a timeless world. Like-

    4. KM

      Mm-hmm

    5. BK

      ... and so I think the nuance I always tell parents is, like, if you think about your kid on one planet, and you're on another planet, that is what life is like. In my planet, what I care about is getting out the door on time, and is getting to work on time, and is getting my kid to bed when we said they were gonna go to bed, because I want five minutes to sit on the couch before I pass out. Like, th- that's my world. And then over here is the world of Pokemon, of all of a sudden I'm a, I'm a teacher, I'm a fire person, pretend play. These are timeless worlds. And it, I, I, I love a visual, so if I think about my kid wanting to cooperate in my world, which we do need sometimes, I think about the visual of, I need to go to my... I need to leave my planet and build a bridge to their planet-

    6. KM

      Mm-hmm

    7. BK

      ... and drop in-

    8. KM

      Mm-hmm

    9. BK

      ... for a couple minutes, because that's actually the only way there's even a bridge to kind of walk back together to mine. And so those three minutes of, "Ugh, tell me about that card," right? Beyond feeling good in and of itself, 'cause it does feel so good when you really give yourself permission to just be in your kid's world, um, you are bridge-building. A- and then you have something where your kid could walk back to your world. But if not-

    10. KM

      Mm-hmm

    11. BK

      ... there's no bridge. There's no bridge for them to even walk on.

    12. KM

      And those bridges that you build in those early years, you know, I always think, I always call those first five years the tunnel. Like, if you have kids under five, you're in the tunnel, and you're just, it's dark, it's scary, it's intense, it's relentless. You're just going, and there is, it's not that you're hoping and dreaming for this time to be over, but you're just heading that way, and you keep going and you keep going till you get out. And sometimes there's a light come in. You think it's the, you think it's the end. It's a train. It's about to hit you.

    13. BK

      [laughs]

    14. KM

      You're done for. But I think, like, those bridges that you build in those years are the things that kind of, uh, that sustain you as a parent going forward. And I think, you know, there's, you know, uh, the, the, the week we record this, there was a, there was an interview, and there was a kind of, like, a very, very well-known kind of male inf- male influencer who was talking about dads aren't useful at all in the first two years. Dads shouldn't even be there during the birth. And I was just, and I was listening to it and going, "This is the rhetoric that really, like-"

    15. BK

      Ugh

    16. KM

      ... puts dads on the wrong track forever. You know, you-

    17. BK

      Yes

    18. KM

      ... that work that you do in those early years, that work that you do to build those bridges and kind of-

    19. BK

      Yep

    20. KM

      ... forge those real, true connections with your kids, they will sustain you going forward. Um, my daughter and I play a video game together. She, there's a video game called Stardew Valley. We, you walk around, you run a farm, you grow crops. You, and every Saturday morning, we get up, and we play it for an hour together.

    21. BK

      Yeah.

    22. KM

      And I, it was, she played on her own for a while. I said, "Oh, I can play this," and I got a job working on her farm. Working around, watering plants, helping kind of pick everything out, and it's just this, we've, we've formed this real connection over this thing, and I think-

    23. BK

      Yep

    24. KM

      ... you know, there is so many opportunities for dads to lean in, to-

    25. BK

      Beautiful

    26. KM

      ... rather than force your kids to be into-

    27. BK

      Yeah

    28. KM

      ... the thing that you were into, it's like, okay, well, just figure out what they're into and meet them where they are. Like, build that bridge, and th- that will be something that really sustains the relationship.

  15. 34:19 – 36:42

    Closing charge: you’re rewriting your lineage—and Good Inside wants to build with dads

    1. BK

      The overarching thing I want to leave a dad with is you are likely trying to do something no one else in the course of fatherhood history in your lineage has done. And if you think about that visually, like, everyone before maybe did it one way. And it's not about blame, 'cause I actually think everyone has always been doing the best they can with the resources they have. That's a lot of kind of energy. And then there's you, and you're kind of saying, "I'm gonna shift something so every single father who comes after me is going to have something else feel a little bit more natural, so it won't be as much of a fight to say, 'Hey, I'm sorry.' It won't be as much of a fight to listen without fixing. It won't be as much of a fight to talk about feelings." I just think what's often missed there is you're taking on a lot. That is such hard work. That is honestly just so brave, and maybe as motivation, just think about all the generations after you who [laughs] kind of, like, owe you a major thank you note. The other thing I just want to add is I'm so excited at Good Inside not to build for fathers, but to build with fathers. I would love to hear from you. I would love you to email podcast@goodinside.com and just give it to us. Like, "Hey, this is what you got wrong. This is what that episode left out. How did you leave this out?" I don't think fathers are the passenger in the car. They are not a supporting part of the movie. You are your own protagonist. You are also a driver, and I know I'm really eager to learn about your journey, your needs, your wants, so we can show up in a better and better way for dads. So let's end the way we always do. Place your feet on the ground, place a hand on your heart, and let's remind ourselves even as we struggle on the outside, we remain good inside. I'll see you soon, and I'm looking forward to hearing from you. [outro music]

Episode duration: 36:42

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