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Good Inside with Dr. BeckyGood Inside with Dr. Becky

The Power of Vulnerability in Fatherhood

Dr. Becky talks with Joe Gonzales, founder of Brooklyn Stroll Club, about how searching for connection with other dads sparked an NYC movement. He shares how fatherhood is “re-raising parts of yourself,” why vulnerability is contagious, and what it means to play the long game in modern parenting. Get the Good Inside App by Dr. Becky: https://bit.ly/4fSxbzk Your Good Inside membership might be eligible for HSA/FSA reimbursement! To learn more about how to get your membership reimbursed, check out the link here: https://www.goodinside.com/fsa-hsa-eligibility/ Follow Dr. Becky on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drbeckyatgoodinside Sign up for our weekly email, Good Insider: https://www.goodinside.com/newsletter For a full transcript of the episode, go to http://goodinside.com/podcast. Thank you to our sponsor, Airbnb — because during the holidays, it’s nice to love your family *and* have your own space. Find your getaway or host your home at [airbnb.com/host](http://airbnb.com/host). Thank you to our sponsor Skylight. Head to http://skylight.com/BECKY for $30 off their 15-inch calendars. This offer expires December 31st of this year. Thank you to our sponsor Hot Wheels. Check out our full series with Hot Wheels at (http://hotwheels.com/challengeaccepted). Thank you to our sponsor Sony. Get $700 off the Sony Alpha 7 IV camera at http://electronics.sony.com/ This season, Good Inside is partnering with Welcome Baby, a nonprofit that provides essential supplies to new parents in need. From December 18th–22nd, 10% of every new membership will help fund Welcome Baby packages—giving parents the support they need during those first, beautiful, overwhelming weeks. Learn more at GoodInside.com

Dr. BeckyhostJoe Gonzalesguest
Dec 2, 202539mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 0:00

    Intro

    1. BE

      [instrumental music]

  2. 0:00 – 1:31

    Why fatherhood feels lonely—and why dads need community

    1. BE

      Parenting can be one of the most rewarding journeys of our lifetime. But at the same time, without a doubt, it is one of the most difficult. And one of the reasons it's often most difficult is that it can be so lonely and isolating. Today, I'm having an amazing conversation with someone who has changed what it means to be a modern dad. Joe Gonzales is a New York-based father, media professional, and the founder of Brooklyn Stroll Club, built on the idea that dads also need belonging and community. Every parent needs a group to turn to for those moments when you're panicking or need support or can't put words to something that you're going through that's real, but feels so confusing. And what he has done through Brooklyn Stroll Club is nothing less than remarkable. Joe and I unpack what it really means to be a father, what he hopes his kid says about him and the type of father he is, surprising things he's learned along the way, and really, the power of not feeling alone. I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Good Inside. We'll be back right after this. Hi, Joe.

    2. JG

      Hi.

    3. BE

      So happy to have you here.

    4. JG

      I'm so excited to be here. Thank you.

    5. BE

      So let's just jump right in. So why don't we start, just tell me a little bit about how you kind of came to this world of fatherhood, what you noticed in terms of maybe what's absent from it, what it was really like, and you didn't expect, and then what you did about it, because it's pretty remarkable.

  3. 1:31 – 2:01

    Joe’s entry into fatherhood: no family nearby and the search for a ‘village’

    1. JG

      Yeah, so I became a dad almost about two years ago now. Uh, when I found out me and my wife were having a kid, uh, I just... It completely changed me. I was like, "What am I gonna do? We don't have family here." So I think for us, it was like, "What are we going to do about that? How are we gonna create a village for us?" And I had been documenting it online, on TikTok, and just really kind of documenting how I was experiencing what she was going through as well, and just kind of being open and vulnerable about that.

  4. 2:01 – 3:06

    “Where do the dads hang out?”: founding Brooklyn Stroll Club

    1. JG

      Then when my son came, I'm like, "Okay, this is a lot to experience." You know, I'm... She's going through healing. She's going through so many different things as well. And so for me, I was like, "How do I get community around?" I need people who understand this. Like, this is something I've never experienced before. A lot of my friends maybe didn't have kids, aren't married, you know, so I'm like, put a, put a call online, and I'm like, "Hey, where, where do the dads hang out?" Like, [laughs] I'm just like, "I'm in Brooklyn. There's gotta be dads around here somewhere." And kind of the consensus was, “We don't know. You do it.” And, or there was like a Facebook group, or something that didn't really feel-

    2. BE

      Hmm

    3. JG

      ... inviting. So for me, I pretty much made a call out to, "Hey, do you [laughs] guys wanna meet up on a random Saturday?" And I'll come to find out, like, dads really were open to that as well, so like, 20, 20 dads came through. Uh, my son was about four months old, and from there, we've just started building this community called Brooklyn Stroll Club, and I really didn't expect it to grow how it has. But I think for me, what I found is just, like, community not only is needed for me, but for others as well.

  5. 3:06 – 4:01

    What Brooklyn Stroll Club really is: visibility, support, and a new model of fatherhood

    1. BE

      Yeah. And just your one two-line description of what Brooklyn Stroll Club is, or maybe what it is underneath-

    2. JG

      Yeah

    3. BE

      ... what people might see. Tell me a little bit about that.

    4. JG

      So I would say Brooklyn Stroll Club, it always changes as far as I'm changing as well. But for right now, I would say Brooklyn Stroll Club is a community for dads to feel seen and supported while giving a new voice to modern fatherhood.

    5. BE

      Mm. Okay, there's so many things I wanna unpack of what you said because y- you went online and kinda said, like, "Where are the dads at?" Like, "Where do the dads go?"

    6. JG

      Yeah.

    7. BE

      And it seems like, is this right, you got interest but no answer? Like, everyone's like, "There's no... I don't have an answer-

    8. JG

      Yeah

    9. BE

      ... but I'm also kind of asking that question." Is that what happened?

    10. JG

      Yeah, it was kinda like, "Uh, well, I don't know." Uh, and it was a lot of moms that were just like, "Oh, I mean, maybe my husband has done this," or, you know, "We have this Facebook group." It wasn't... It didn't really point me anywhere-

    11. BE

      Yeah

    12. JG

      ... that felt like where I belonged. [laughs] You know what I'm saying?

    13. BE

      Yeah.

    14. JG

      So.

  6. 4:01 – 6:30

    Why dads struggle with connection: socialization, stats, and the friendship gap

    1. BE

      Do you think dads, or let's even say dads to be, 'cause it sounds like you were thinking about this during the pregnancy, are s- are also aware, like, "I have this need for community"? Was community always been a big thing for you before fatherhood, and then the absence of it around this new identity was obvious to you? H-

    2. JG

      Yeah, I g- I... So originally, kind of my background is I come from the church. So the premise of a lot of that is community groups, and some of those fall short sometimes. You know, when it comes to faith, you can kinda go back and forth.

    3. BE

      Hmm.

    4. JG

      Like, I'm involved, I'm not, I'm kinda contemplating where I'm at in life. But fatherhood, I'm here forever.

    5. BE

      Hmm.

    6. JG

      So I think what I kinda got inspired was like, hey, I really want to create a group where I can evolve and grow in, and that doesn't kind of fall apart, [laughs] you know what I mean? Or I don't have to go back and forth and, and contemplate this. Like, I'm in, I'm in fatherhood forever, regardless, so having a community that empowers that was important to me.

    7. BE

      Yeah. And look, I think moms and dads are woefully under-supported in general. I know you and I have talked about that. But, but there probably is a lot more for community for new moms. Are you in a new moms group, and are you in this group when you're pregnant, and do you have your text thread? And have you found that that is something that moms have a little bit more built into their life for more optionality than, than dads have-

    8. JG

      Yeah

    9. BE

      ... traditionally had?

    10. JG

      Absolutely. I think moms really are great at community, great at building community, great at understanding what their needs are, what they're expecting, what they want in friendships. I think women are way better at just building strong connections with women, and I think that's the kind of, uh, thing that we've wrestled with or, or struggled with as men. Um, there's some stats by my friends at Mundo, really. They have a stat that's, like, 58, 55% of men between 25 to 40, uh, d- have not one person that they feel close to. So I think that that's-

    11. BE

      Wait, say that again.

    12. JG

      So 50, 50% of men between the ages of 25 to 45 don't have one person they feel close to, which is interesting, because if you don't have somebody, one, as- A friend to you just by yourself, how can that affect you when you become a father and you're actually somebody's closest friend [laughs] you know? Or as a partner to your, to your s- to your, uh, partner. You know, how, how can that affect you and how can that affect the way that you operate in the world? And that's just something I think we've answered or tried to figure out as we create the community.

  7. 6:30 – 8:11

    “We can’t change the hard, we can change the alone”

    1. BE

      Yeah. You know, a, a principle I think about a lot, and it's just feeling loud in my brain right now, is we can't change the hard, we can change the alone.

    2. JG

      Mm-hmm.

    3. BE

      And the transition to parenthood is really hard.

    4. JG

      Yeah.

    5. BE

      And I think sometimes we focus on trying to change the hard. It's not that hard, or here's how to make it easier. But if you think about not changing the hard, if the hard just is the hard because life has hard things, and instead you focus on, wait, maybe the problem isn't the hard, it's just hard plus alone. And what if I actually focus on the alone piece? It's actually, not to say it's so easy to change, but I actually think that part is, we have a little bit more agency-

    6. JG

      Yeah

    7. BE

      ... in changing that, and that's exactly what you created. In transitioning to becoming a father, what if I just didn't feel alone every Saturday?

    8. JG

      Yeah.

    9. BE

      What if I put my baby in a stroller, walked around with other dads? I don't know if it's, probably not structured conversations. Who knows what we talk about-

    10. JG

      Yeah

    11. BE

      ... but I'm literally no longer alone in this brand-new identity I'm taking on.

    12. JG

      Yeah, having a place where you can... Our online community is where you can actually just talk to daily, and then having a meetup monthly. Like yeah, that's not gonna cure everything. That's not gonna cure your loneliness. But that's creates the conversation and starts a movement. So for me, I'm hitting dads on a Saturday morning like, "Hey, it's, I've been up since 5:00. I need to hang out. I need to get outside with somebody who else, [laughs] who else is, like, feel- feeling the same, who is up-

    13. BE

      Yeah

    14. JG

      ... who is tired, too." Um, to me, it feels like I'm not doing it alone. Of course, I have my partner, which is always the support for me, but being able to have another dad to experience, "Hey, your kid's going through this. My kid's going through this," I feel a little bit more less alone in that element. Yeah.

  8. 8:11 – 10:09

    How community supports partnership and improves self-regulation

    1. BE

      Yeah, and look, I, I, I don't wanna be shy about naming this. The transition to having a baby can be tricky sometimes in a partnership.

    2. JG

      Absolutely.

    3. BE

      And sometimes you have a little tiff or something's going on, you're feeling distant, and actually having someone to talk to about it helps you vent, helps you feel understood, maybe helps you develop a new perspective to be more productive with your partner.

    4. JG

      Yeah.

    5. BE

      Uh, uh, our partner can't be the only person we're talking to when we're having a hard time with our partner.

    6. JG

      Yeah.

    7. BE

      Right? [laughs] It's too circular.

    8. JG

      No, absolutely. There's dads in the community that I look up to, how they handle things. Or I'm like, "Hey, I actually wouldn't handle it that way," and it helps me kinda regulate what I'm doing and how I'm expressing myself, not only to my partner, but also to my child. So it's like, "Hey, I love the way that you're talking to your wife, or how y'all experienced this together and y'all went through it together." Or you know what? To 100... There's, we have meetups with 100 dads. Not everybody handles things well, but being able to regulate those and understand where I wanna take things, where I wanna kinda leave things-

    9. BE

      Yeah

    10. JG

      ... uh, from other people and other experiences is helpful.

    11. BE

      You know, uh, uh, I'm curious what you think about this. I'm not even sure of my own answer, but I'm just gonna put it out there. Do you think most dads or most men, when it comes to something that's hard, have they been socialized to think, "I just have to make this better or pretend this isn't happening," rather than, uh, "Maybe I could talk to someone about this or experience this with someone"?

    12. JG

      Yeah, I would say so. I think dads, I think the male, uh, maybe stereotype is just internalize a lot of those things. Uh, find the solution on your own. Um, and I think, like, that's been seen in society-

    13. BE

      Yeah

    14. JG

      ... and, and been seen in how men kinda operate maybe on [laughs] isolation, uh, in politics, in general, in government, in things like that. Like, when men get power and, and, and have those things that maybe aren't addressed, those, I think those kinda play out a little bit differently. But your family needs you in those elements, and so to be able to, like, uh, process those things I think is really important.

  9. 10:09 – 11:01

    What becoming a dad felt like: responsibility, providing, and breaking patterns

    1. BE

      Yeah. What, what was it like when you became a dad? Like, what, what images come to mind, or feelings or thoughts?

    2. JG

      Oh, man. I think completely changed me. I think what I s- When I first saw my son, I had this amount, immense responsibility that-

    3. BE

      Mm

    4. JG

      ... made me feel like I'm the sole responsibility. Of course, my wife was there. She had this whole, she had this, like, tough process of giving birth, but you know, even in that moment of seeing him, it's like she's healing. She's trying to figure out, get better, and I'm like, "Okay, what am I doing now?"

    5. BE

      Mm.

    6. JG

      And I think that responsibility of can I provide? Can I be there for him and unlearn all the patterns that maybe I learned in the past? [laughs] Like, h- what can I do for him that's better? And I think a lot of not only what can I do for him, but also what can I do for myself, and how can I change the dynamic of maybe what he's seen and what he's going to experience kinda fell on me as well.

  10. 11:01 – 13:33

    Re-raising yourself: healing through how you respond to your child

    1. BE

      Yeah. You know, I, I read something you had said in another interview. It makes me think about what we're talking about here, that so much about fatherhood isn't just about raising your kid, it's about re-raising parts of yourself.

    2. JG

      Yeah. I've been in a place where I, everything means more. How I respond to him, how I respond to my wife, it matters. And I think I've really been trying to take those moments one at a time and not just, like, think about, hey, these are things that I need to address overall. Of course, um, I need to work on this and this. Um, but being able to respond to my son out of love, out of care, patience. Like, there's elements maybe that my dad maybe fell short in-

    3. BE

      Yeah

    4. JG

      ... that I want to give to him in a way that kinda heals not only him, but myself, you know? And I, and I think that it, it, seeing him and how I've handled situations sometimes is a healing journey for me as well. Being able to, him, him to have a tantrum or him to lose his cool and me to respond just out of love, uh, or really out of patience, I, I kinda make myself proud in those elements, in those times, you know?

    5. BE

      I mean, I think you're getting to the heart of what parenting secretly is all about, right? I think so many times, like, we think having our kids are gonna heal us-

    6. JG

      Mm-hmm

    7. BE

      ... or our kids will naturally heal us, but our, our kids trigger old stuff in us.

    8. JG

      Oh, yeah.

    9. BE

      Kind of the opposite.

    10. JG

      Yeah.

    11. BE

      You're like, "Oh, I guess I didn't resolve that thing."

    12. JG

      Yeah.

    13. BE

      And I think we can either look at that as, "Oh, something's wrong with me," or, "I'm destined to repeat the past," or, "Through this interaction with my kid, they're kind of sh- like showing me a mirror or shining light of something that if I can work through this, it's gonna benefit them, but it- it's going to be h- maybe huge for me even in my non-parenting-

    14. JG

      Yeah

    15. BE

      ... areas of life." And it sounds like that's-

    16. JG

      Yeah, absolutely

    17. BE

      ... kind of the journey you're on.

    18. JG

      I mean, e- especially him being so pure and just a raw emotion of what a human is.

    19. BE

      Yeah.

    20. JG

      Like, he's just experiencing things for the first time. So being able to see that in a way that's like-

    21. BE

      Mm

    22. JG

      ... "Hey, he doesn't know how he's ex- uh, responding to me. He doesn't know how he's acting in some areas." I do. I'm, I'm 30- I'm 33. Like, I understand my responses. And so I- it definitely has more of a responsibility to say, "How can I respond better?" He's, it's his first time. It's not my first time, and not that I have ... I definitely have grace in how I respond and how I react, but can I be better-

    23. BE

      Yeah

    24. JG

      ... the next time-

    25. BE

      Yeah

    26. JG

      ... that w- he responds this way, and can I respond better to my partner-

    27. BE

      Yeah

    28. JG

      ... the next time as well, you know?

  11. 13:33 – 16:03

    Joe’s dad: hardworking provider, but isolated—grief without blame

    1. BE

      Tell me a little bit about, about your dad. Like, you- what, what do you remember-

    2. JG

      Yeah

    3. BE

      ... growing up?

    4. JG

      My dad, he, he worked hard. He was a hard worker. Um, I never, I- that's one thing I learned about from my dad that I'm really proud of, is that-

    5. BE

      Mm

    6. JG

      ... he, he could provide. He could make a way w- with whatever. Whatever he had, uh, whatever resources, he could make. I think what I saw and why the community is so important to me is my dad was really isolated. I think he didn't have friendships. And honestly, I don't think he had the time to have-

    7. BE

      Yeah

    8. JG

      ... friends. And, and I think that kind of put him in some iso- isolation moments, and I saw that in patterns, maybe that he reacted or maybe that he expressed himself in different areas. And so I think for me, it was just important to, like, figure out, how do I get around people-

    9. BE

      Yeah

    10. JG

      ... take the good parts of my dad-

    11. BE

      Yeah

    12. JG

      ... take the good parts of what he's been about, and be able to channel it to something better. And-

    13. BE

      Yeah

    14. JG

      ... you know, and that's what he would want. That's what our parents have done for us. You know, they've, for me, my dad wanted me to be in a better school, wanted me to be in a better life. He was one of seven, so you know, he had a lot going on and a lot of experiences with his siblings, with his family. So of course. Like, it was just a different upbringing and a different time.

    15. BE

      Yeah.

    16. JG

      But he worked so hard so that we can do this.

    17. BE

      Yeah.

    18. JG

      And so I'm grateful for those moments, but I'm also challenged in how-

    19. BE

      Yeah

    20. JG

      ... I can operate and how I can be a father.

    21. BE

      A- and what you're naming is something that I think is the key to showing up in a way that feels good as a parent, is none of this is about blaming our parents. We can say, "My parent was doing the best they could with the resources they had."

    22. JG

      Yeah.

    23. BE

      "And there are things I wanna do differently."

    24. JG

      Yeah.

    25. BE

      And it doesn't have to be my fault, my dad's fault. Like, I always find fault to generally be an unhelpful framework. We're just, like, pointing fingers at someone, which generally isn't a way we learn.

    26. JG

      Yeah.

    27. BE

      Right?

    28. JG

      I, and I've had to go through that. It's a constant mourning sometimes of maybe what I didn't experience or what I wish I woulda had.

    29. BE

      Yeah.

    30. JG

      When I see it in my son or when I can give it to my son, that's the healing element for me, where I have blamed my dad or I have-

  12. 16:03 – 19:47

    A real-life stroller struggle: validating feelings while still leading

    1. BE

      I, I wonder if you could talk about a specific moment with your son that makes you kind of know in that moment, like, "Mm," like, "I'm giving him something that I, I probably could have used but, but didn't get."

    2. JG

      Yeah.

    3. BE

      Can, can you, can you share a specific moment?

    4. JG

      Yeah, I think yesterday, actually. Um, he was just out of place. I, I mean, I don't know if it's he's getting teeth, he's getting his molars. I don't know what it is. I- it could be a, you know, a plethora of things that he's dealing with. Um, I think this moment yesterday, he was going back and forth. He just wouldn't go in his, um, wouldn't go in his stroller. Just was like, we were trying to go to the park. I'm like, "Hey, I'm making a decision for you. Like, we're going to the park, and we're trying to do something. You're not happy." I think overall in that moment, I was very frustrated-

    5. BE

      Yeah

    6. JG

      ... or, like, just, like, kind of not my full self. But I think I was really proud of how my wife and I handled that, where we didn't, like, we didn't, like, react. We didn't do any- Like, we didn't take it out of control. We just really took him to the park and found a solution rather than-

    7. BE

      Yeah

    8. JG

      ... just like, "Hey, we need to get out of the house right now, uh, because this isn't probably the best place for you. Let's go somewhere else. Let's make a active decision to do something." And I think I was proud of myself rather than just being like, "Hey," you know, "Just stop crying," or, "Hey, uh, you know, let's, you know, you're okay. You're okay." Like, telling him, you know, being able to validate his feelings, but also being able to find a solution for him without r- without compromising how he's feeling.

    9. BE

      Yes.

    10. JG

      With-

    11. BE

      And so what can feel natural in those moments, let's just act it out, is some version of ... Maybe I'll act one out. You could act another one out. It's like, "Stop crying. You're being ridiculous. We're just going to the, we're going to the park."

    12. JG

      Yeah, yeah.

    13. BE

      "It's not such a big deal."

    14. JG

      No, absolutely.

    15. BE

      Something like that.

    16. JG

      Yeah.

    17. BE

      Or what's another kind of, you feel, like, just easy, quick, vomit your own frustration response.

    18. JG

      Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or, yeah, "You're, you're good. You're, you're, you're go- you're okay. You're, you're okay. You don't need any ... You're, you're okay. We're gonna go get this. Like, you're, you're okay." I think unvalidating how he ... Like, he doesn't know that he's upset. Like, I think one of those things, like, he doesn't know he's frustrated.

    19. BE

      Yeah.

    20. JG

      He, he doesn't, he's just experiencing what he feels in the moment. Like, telling a, a one-year-old they're okay is, like, never helping the solution, you know? [laughs]

    21. BE

      Yeah.

    22. JG

      So that, that's a experience for sure.

    23. BE

      And so you're saying in that moment- Showing up, and I think this is a duality that sometimes we don't even realize both are possible. 'Cause I talk to this, you know, about this with parents all the time, where it's like, okay, so let's say your kid's having trouble getting in the stroller. You say, "There's something about getting in the stroller that doesn't feel good right now," or, "Ugh, this is a hard moment."

    24. JG

      Yeah.

    25. BE

      Keep it simple. And then parents will say to me, "Oh, so then you're just not taking them to the park?" I'm like, "Whoa."

    26. JG

      No, yeah, no.

    27. BE

      "I am taking them to the park."

    28. JG

      Yeah.

    29. BE

      And the idea that you can validate and see your kid's current emotions as real, and you can still put them in a stroller when they're crying-

    30. JG

      Yeah

  13. 19:47 – 23:35

    The long game: raising a teen who trusts you with hard moments

    1. BE

      And tell me, for the dad or the mom listening, I, I think a common thought is, "Okay, but so you're just telling your son it's okay to freak out about getting in the stroller?"

    2. JG

      Mm.

    3. BE

      Like, "He has to know that's not okay behavior. You don't wanna reinforce that."

    4. JG

      Yeah.

    5. BE

      Like, that's a, I think, a very traditional mindset, right? So does that thought ever come up for you, or when you hear that from moms or dads around you, h- how do you think through that?

    6. JG

      I think at first, it, that makes sense logically. [laughs] When having a toddler, you understand I'm playing the long game. Like, I'm, I'm here to, I'm here to not only just get him to the park, I'm here for him to feel loved the entire way to the park. Whether that's-

    7. BE

      Mm

    8. JG

      ... whether I had a long day or whether I didn't, you know? And not only am I here for him to feel loved, I want him to see my wife is loved. Like, that my wife, that I took time for her. I grabbed her a water. I, we slowed down, and we didn't let feelings dictate how we were going to operate in our day. We acknowledged them, but we were able to find something, a solution-

    9. BE

      Yeah

    10. JG

      ... that helped us all get in a better place. Because if he's in a bad place, it could all sl- slew into all of us getting into worse places. So we, you know, we're taking care of him, and he's our priority, of course, but we're also taking care of ourselves.

    11. BE

      I, I just wanna veer back, something you said, it's so powerful, and your language is so powerful. Uh, like, "I'm playing the long game," number one, and I think about that a lot with parenting.

    12. JG

      Yeah.

    13. BE

      Like, whether you're kind of playing the right-now optimizing for ease in this moment game.

    14. JG

      Yeah. I could turn on the TV. I could, you know, I could do whatever. I could, easy. I can-

    15. BE

      Yeah

    16. JG

      ... yeah, give him something, go on my f- or leave the room. That's easy. Those are easy things.

    17. BE

      They're easy. Or I guess I could scream at my kid-

    18. JG

      Yeah

    19. BE

      ... and he'd become so scared that he'd get frozen, and then I'd pick him up and put him in the stroller, right? But whether you're optimizing for easy in the moment or the long game of, and what you just said, it's not just about getting my kid to the park. I want my kid to feel loved on the way to the park. That's really profound. And loved doesn't mean giving in, right?

    20. JG

      Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    21. BE

      But loved means I see you-

    22. JG

      Yeah

    23. BE

      ... and we can stay connected. You still have a parent and a leader and a coach in your hard moments. When I think about the long game, and your son is gonna be, you know, I don't know, let's say 16 in about four- you know-

    24. JG

      Yeah

    25. BE

      ... 14 years, right? There's gonna be a lot of moments when he's away from you, and something really hard is going to happen.

    26. JG

      Yeah.

    27. BE

      And his body is either going to remember, like, "This is gonna get me in trouble. This is going to get met with more fear, more distance, more judgment from my dad," or, "This is something my dad is going to be able to be present for."

    28. JG

      Yeah.

    29. BE

      "He's still gonna see me as a good kid, even if I have a hard moment, and he's gonna help coach me through this." I mean, that literally makes all the difference at age 16.

    30. JG

      Yeah. Uh, a friend of mine, he has a 18-year-old. He just went to college. I'm just, I was asking him the other day, I'm like, "What did you, like, how are you processing, like, him making his own decisions now?" And he said something that I thought was so profound. He was, said, "We made the things that were important when the stakes were low, so when the stakes were high, they understood that e- everything mattered." So for instance, like, you know, dating somebody or the decisions that he had, those are little bit higher stakes. Or, you know, what school he's gonna go to and those things like that, but he, they made things that were maybe lower stakes of, like, disrespecting, talking, they, they, the everything mattered to them when the stakes were low, so when they were higher, they could actually, you know, know that they can trust their parents, that they're present, that they're gonna be there no matter what, and that everything mattered to them, and I just thought that was really important.

  14. 23:35 – 29:54

    Tantrums and ‘bad’ behaviors: normalizing, biting, and parents’ inner stories

    1. BE

      I think that's beautiful, and I know you and I were talking about these toddler tantrums, right? Which are-

    2. JG

      Oh, yeah. I'm taking The Good Inside class right now. I was telling you before we got on, I'm, like, 30 minutes in. I'm trying to work through it, but my wife and I were like, "We have to take these," and I, I f- I love your process in it and just being able to validate and see, uh, really, really everything I'm repeating is just regurgitating what you said on, on [laughs] Good Inside, on the app. And so I just appreciate your voice in that, 'cause it's really helpful. 'Cause it goes quickly from being a baby to a toddler. It, it was so interesting. Like, I know when you asked me about what I remember about my son, it just, everything, he existed, and now he's a human, and that's what, like, I, I, I remember these beautiful moments of existing. Now I'm like, "Oh, I'm teaching him now. He's learning things, and he's seeing things," and it's just such a different

    3. BE

      And, and, and I want to let anybody listening or watching know, people are generally surprised that tantrums start so early. It is usually before two. Terrible twos, that, like, phrase that we all think, honestly, in the one year, even 11 months-

    4. JG

      Yeah

    5. BE

      ... that's when toddlers start tantruming.

    6. JG

      Yeah.

    7. BE

      So that's totally normal. And it's powerful to just know all a tantrum really is is a surge of feelings without skills to manage feelings, 'cause kids aren't born with skills-

    8. JG

      Yeah

    9. BE

      ... to manage feelings, but they're born with the feelings.

    10. JG

      Absolutely.

    11. BE

      So that's all a tantrum is. And, and the reason I love this long game perspective around how we deal with tantrums is it's true. When our kid is 16 or 26, I don't think telling them they can't have ice cream for breakfast is gonna lead to a tantrum.

    12. JG

      Yeah.

    13. BE

      Like, I hope not. But your kid is going to want something and not be able to have it.

    14. JG

      Mm-hmm.

    15. BE

      They're going to get fired from a job. They're gonna be jealous of a friend.

    16. JG

      Absolutely.

    17. BE

      They're going to be mad at someone they love. And being able to learn when you're one, two, and three I'm allowed to have feelings, by the way, my parent will stop me from hitting. All behavior-

    18. JG

      Yeah

    19. BE

      ... isn't okay, but all feelings are, I always think it's just, like, the ultimate power move and emotional privilege-

    20. JG

      Yeah

    21. BE

      ... growing up, and that's what you're teaching during a tantrum.

    22. JG

      Yeah. I was say- I was saying the other day, I, I was talking to the dads, uh, and I- my son bit someone, and I was-

    23. BE

      Yeah

    24. JG

      ... I was embarrassed, like, for myself, and I know that's maybe weird to say, but I, I felt him... And it was interesting 'cause all of what happened was with him and dealing with how he was feeling, and, and it... You know, that happens. Emotions happen. But I was like, "Why am I feeling this way?" It, it was such an internal perspective. Not only was his tantrum what happened with him, but it also happened inside of me too.

    25. BE

      Ah.

    26. JG

      And I'm like, "Why am I feeling maybe embarrassed or s- or fr- or sad, you know, that this happened as a parent?" And I thought that was interesting to feel 'cause I... Not only is he feeling something, I'm feeling something too. How he operates in the world, I feel it too, you know?

    27. BE

      Yeah.

    28. JG

      And it, and it matters to me as well. And so I'm like, "Is this a reflection? Is he gonna be like this forever? Is he gonna do this? Is this gonna happen?" And, you know, I think all those things go through your mind, so being able to, like, calm myself as well [laughs] during that moment is, is important as well.

    29. BE

      Seriously. I, I remember talking to, it was a dad who was seeing me in my private practice years ago, and he'd always come in talking. He was on this big journey of being, like, a different kind of father, and he felt like that was the most important kind of journey of his-

    30. JG

      Yeah

  15. 29:54 – 32:55

    Community as a nervous-system reset: ‘It takes a village’ in modern life

    1. BE

      Exactly. Do you feel like talking so openly, right, and being, I find you remarkably emotionally available, that I would say, do you notice that having a ripple effect on other fathers?

    2. JG

      Yeah. I think sometimes I share too much, but I think, [laughs] I think that's, like, my, my characteristic. But I think fathers are really... Like, we have a chat, like, outside of the Discord that our, where our community lives, and, like, yesterday I'm, I'm hitting them, like, "Hey, I'm wrestling with my son being upset today." Um, what do you guys think? And it's like six, seven dads saying, "Hey, this is what happens. It's okay. Here, here, here are some things you can do. Get him out." Literally what I was doing, which was-

    3. BE

      Yeah

    4. JG

      ... really helpful. And it affirmed me. Like, hey, just get him outside. Try to do something. Hey, maybe if you take him out of that environment. Like, all the things that I was doing made me feel seen and, uh, encouraged in what I was doing. And not that I was-

    5. BE

      Yeah

    6. JG

      ... just alone. Of course, my wife and I were, you know, this is the best decision.

    7. BE

      Yeah.

    8. JG

      But having an outside community speaking into that is really helpful-

    9. BE

      Oh

    10. JG

      ... because you could feel like, "Am I the only one doing this? I don't know if this is normal. I don't know-"

    11. BE

      Yes

    12. JG

      ... "if this is happening." So having other dads and people, being able to go through that as well, and they're going through the same things, like-

    13. BE

      Yeah

    14. JG

      ... they're like, "Hey, my son's doing this," "My, my daughter's sick," or m- you know, "This is happening and this is happening." Being able to normalize that is just such a different, you know, ideology of parenting. I feel like being ab- than being able to just be in your, you know, your house-

    15. BE

      Yeah

    16. JG

      ... your, your own, you know, your own room. Being able to take it outside of that with community I think is helpful.

    17. BE

      I think the fear that we're the only one is present in every parent's brain. And it happens, you see your kid, you're like, "Does any other kid actually tantrum like this?" Like, everyone says, "Oh, kids do this," but do I actually have-

    18. JG

      Yeah

    19. BE

      ... the kid who's the sociopath? Like, people worry about that-

    20. JG

      Yeah

    21. BE

      ... all the time. The reason it's so important to have a community to talk about that with is that fear, I'm the only one, my kid's the only one, it leads to us getting so activated with our nervous system. We really go into fight or flight mode.

    22. JG

      Yeah.

    23. BE

      So then you respond to your kid from fight or flight mode.

    24. JG

      Yeah.

    25. BE

      And that simple outlet, which isn't simple, but it's, you know, straightforward, "Hey, anyone else going through this? Hey, any ideas?" It's really not a nice-to-have.

    26. JG

      Yeah.

    27. BE

      Like, it's a critical part of the parenting journey.

    28. JG

      Absolutely. I was looking at, uh, just the phrase, "It takes a village."

    29. BE

      Yeah.

    30. JG

      And I was like, "Where does it come from?" It's, uh, that actual African proverb. It's like centuries of like what, what parents have, have understood that it takes more than just you and your partner. It takes grandparents. If you don't have grandparents, like us here, it takes community, teachers. There's people that my son will see that validate him, that see him. Not only him, but also me in those elements, and I think that's the healing journey. He'll n- he, he'll never have to see himself as isolated. He'll see my dad interacted with other men, other people.

  16. 32:55 – 37:43

    Rapid-fire reflections: stereotypes, repair, patience, and legacy

    1. BE

      Beautiful. All right, I wanna end with five rapid fire questions.

    2. JG

      Awesome. Let's do it.

    3. BE

      You ready?

    4. JG

      Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

    5. BE

      Need to shake it out?

    6. JG

      Yep.

    7. BE

      Stretch?

    8. JG

      Yep.

    9. BE

      Okay, we're good. Okay. What's one stereotype about dads that you want to retire so we can build stronger communities for them?

    10. JG

      Uh, that dads are stupid, I would say. Dads don't know anything, I would say.

    11. BE

      Mm-hmm.

    12. JG

      Uh-

    13. BE

      Let's retire that.

    14. JG

      Let's retire that. That we're, we're, we know, we, we wanna learn, I would say.

    15. BE

      Yep. Finish this sentence. A moment in the last month I was really proud of as a dad or as a husband was...

    16. JG

      It was our seven-year anniversary. Uh, we had a babysitter. Um, we spent time together, my wife and I, and I think that was just a really proud moment, to be able to feel s- that our son was safe at home, to be able to talk about where we've come from, where we're going as a family.

    17. BE

      Right.

    18. JG

      I think that was really good.

    19. BE

      I think I commented on your story that day.

    20. JG

      Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. We, of course we did on the TikTok-

    21. BE

      I love it. Yeah, yeah

    22. JG

      ... you know, of course.

    23. BE

      Okay. What feels harder or more vulnerable, saying to your kid, "I love you," or saying to your kid, "I'm sorry"?

    24. JG

      I would say "I'm sorry" is, is more vulnerable. I think, I know this isn't a rapid answer, but one thing my dad used to say that I'm trying to unlearn a little bit is, "I don't wanna be right, I just don't wanna be wrong." Uh, and it really, I had to unlearn a little bit of that. Like, you can be wrong and be sorry and be open about those things. And so I think "I'm sorry" is, is really-

    25. BE

      Ah

    26. JG

      ... important to me.

    27. BE

      And I just wanna name, you know, to me the most powerful relationship strategy in the world is repair.

    28. JG

      Yeah.

    29. BE

      And you can only repair if you made a mistake, which also is just a sign you're human.

    30. JG

      Yeah.

  17. 37:43 – 39:21

    Dr. Becky’s takeaway: boundaries with love—‘the whole way to the park’

    1. BE

      I have so many takeaways from this episode. I'm guessing you do, too. But there's something Joe said that is cycling in my brain over and over, even now. When he talked about how he was intervening when his kid was having a tantrum about getting in the stroller, and they were just trying to get to the park, and he talked about playing the long game, he said this thing. He said, "I don't just wanna get my kid to the park. I want my kid to feel loved the whole way to the park." There's something about that language that feels so important to me and puts words to, I think, what so many of us are trying to do with our kid. And so I know for me, when I inevitably have a frustrating moment later today with my own kid, and I'm just thinking, "I need to shut this down right now. I have a goal of getting to bed, of turning off the TV," I can set certain boundaries, but my goal is for my kid to feel loved the whole time. I'm so thankful to Joe for putting that idea in my head. All right, let's end the way we always do. Place your feet on the ground and a hand on your heart. [upbeat music] And let's remind ourselves, even as we struggle on the outside, we remain good inside. I'll see you soon. [upbeat music]

Episode duration: 39:22

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