Good Inside with Dr. BeckyWhat Boys and Dads Really Need with Richard Reeves
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
35 min read · 7,347 words- 0:00 – 2:14
Father’s Day framing: boys, masculinity, and why this conversation now
- BEDr. Becky
So here we are. It's right around Father's Day, and I've been having so many conversations with so many men about fatherhood, about what they feel it's like to be a dad right now, the kind of dad they want to be, the kind of dad they never had modeled, their concerns for their sons, masculinity, the, the whole thing. And you know, I thought I have the perfect person to bring on this pod to talk about these themes. Today I'm talking to Richard Reeves. Richard Reeves is a scholar. He's a writer. He's the author of Of Boys and Men. He's a 2023 TED Talk speaker about this topic. And one of the things he's always said when I've heard him speak is none of his research about boys is in any way meant to insinuate that girls, that women, don't have their own set of struggles or kind of topics to explore. We know at Good Inside two things can be true. And we've noticed there have been real shifts around boys and education. There are real struggles they're having around kind of developmental tasks, and there's just differences in expectations around what a boy looks like at age five and what a girl does, not in broad strokes, but there are some patterns. And that's exactly what we'll be talking about today, boys, fatherhood, masculinity, and this is a conversation I just know is going to make you think different things. And so my ask for you right from the start is listen, reflect, see what resonates, and then share this with a dad to start a new type of conversation. I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Good Inside. We'll be back right after this. I just really can't stop thinking about fatherhood and masculinity, and then I was talking to my team, and of course I thought, "Well, I don't even wanna have any of these thoughts without bouncing some of them off Richard and hearing all of your thoughts." So even education early on, I know you've said that in younger years, right, boys tend to lag girls in early language and self-regulation, right? And that school, in a way, isn't really set up for even young boys. So can we start with those younger years? What do you see there?
- 2:14 – 2:57
Early school gaps: language, self-regulation, and readiness
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah, you're right. I mean, boys are about a year behind i- in terms of language development and pretty much all the way through, um, starting in pre-K, but you see that gap, like, all, all the way through. It starts to narrow a little bit towards the end of high school, um, but there's just this developmental gap, right? Um, boys much less likely to be ready for school, um, much more likely to be excluded. Uh, if you look at the GPAs, high school GPAs, two-thirds of the top 10% are, are girls. Two-thirds of the bottom 10% are boys. So the whole school... Throughout the school system, the gender gaps are pretty strong, um, and it does seem to be a, uh, partly a developmental thing. It's just that I don't think the school system's quite ready for boys who aren't quite as developed-
- BEDr. Becky
Mm
- RRRichard Reeves
... as the girls.
- BEDr. Becky
Mm-hmm.
- 2:57 – 3:31
Schools becoming ‘female-default’: environment, staffing, and expectations
- RRRichard Reeves
Also, we've seen a massive decline in the share of male teachers, fewer boys playing sport, uh, and so, like, I don't... Obviously, there's no conspiracy here. It's not like a cabal of feminists decided to sort of screw the boys by changing the school system.
- BEDr. Becky
[laughs]
- RRRichard Reeves
That's not what's happened. I think that series of changes, though, have actually led to the schools just being a bit more female-friendly than male-friendly, and to some extent, if I can go one step further, is to say that there's a danger that in schools the boys get treated like malfunctioning girls.
- BEDr. Becky
Mm. Mm-hmm.
- RRRichard Reeves
The implied default is the female one.
- 3:31 – 5:10
Kindergarten shock for parents: ‘What’s wrong with my son?’
- BEDr. Becky
A- and so if we make that, like, a little more concrete, I'm just thinking something I hear from parents all the time who often do have a boy and a girl in their family is, "I swear my kid going to kindergarten, my son, looks nothing like my daughter. My daughter was getting dressed. My daughter was not only putting on her own jacket, was zippering her own jacket. She knew to get her water bottle. She put it in her bag. She was ready to read. She was ready to focus. Across the board, Dr. Becky, like, I, I just, I can't even believe my son is going to kindergarten. Like, what's wrong with him?" So from your perspective, unpack that.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah, what's wrong with him is a really int- I mean, the number of parents that I think are thinking, "Why aren't you more like your sister?" Uh, honestly, I, I have three sons, and I thought, "Why aren't you more like your sister?" They didn't have a sister. I invented one. I had an imaginary daughter that I could compare themselves to, um, compare them to really unfairly. A- and so it is just a fact that in terms of these non-cognitive skills, that's what the social scientists call it, it is these organ- it's just what you said. It's those organizational skills. It's deferred gratification. It's planning. Uh, the boys are just way behind. And the thing is that when you, when you point that out to parents or e- an educator, and I've got charts showing those, those developmental gaps, their, their reaction's always, "Well, well, duh. Tell me something I didn't know, Mr. Expert." But I'm like, okay, so this is blindingly obvious to everybody, and yet it doesn't affect our education policy at all. We don't think about when we start boys in school. We don't think about maybe they're gonna need more room to run around. We don't think about the fact they're gonna need more scaffolding and support to girls. Like, how can something be so blindingly obvious and yet not affecting the way we think about education?
- 5:10 – 6:59
Replacing blame with skill-building: shame, patience, and scaffolding
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah. But I also think I have found curiosity, generosity, and understanding, they do help us remove kind of the assumption of fault 'cause I think, "What is wrong with my kid? What is wrong with me?" Those are the first two reasons we always have for a problem, right? "Okay, what's wrong with my kid? Uh, why can't he just learn how to write a letter? It's not that hard. What is wrong with my son? Why can't he sit in the chair? Why is... What is wrong with my son? Why can't he put his water bottle in his bag or zipper up?" Or, "What's wrong with me? Like, w- how did I mess up this kid compared to my first kid?" Or, "What's wrong with me? How do I have a kindergartner who can't even get his shirt on?" And the truth is I find, and you and I are a good pair 'cause you look at stuff a little probably more macro. Uh, as a psychologist, I do... You know, I'm, I'm focused on what's happening in an individual way. But as soon as we go to what's wrong with my kid or what's wrong with me- We lead with a lot of reactivity and anger-
- RRRichard Reeves
Mm
- BEDr. Becky
... and blame, where we're-
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah
- BEDr. Becky
... enemies, right?
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah.
- BEDr. Becky
And so-
- RRRichard Reeves
And shame, and shame as well. There's a lot of shame involved.
- BEDr. Becky
So much shame.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah.
- BEDr. Becky
I have shame as a parent, right? I have to then prove in this moment that my kid can zipper his jacket, 'cause to some degree I've said that means I'm a good parent. And now forget helping my kid or helping them build that skill. I'm just kind of living in my own psychological world. And so saying, "Wait," 'cause I find it very helpful to say to parents, "You're right. Your son is not able to do those things now."
- RRRichard Reeves
Mm-hmm.
- BEDr. Becky
Like, let's put fault to the side, your or your kid. You're totally right. Where a kid, I have one, like, who can't make a layup, I, I just don't know anyone who, like, sends their kid to their room to make a layup or takes away-
- RRRichard Reeves
[laughs]
- BEDr. Becky
... dessert to make a layup-
- RRRichard Reeves
That's a great example. Yeah. [laughs]
- BEDr. Becky
... or even lectures them to make a layup. Like, even if they say, "But other kids can make a layup at age whatever," uh, okay. It, it's just not useful to help your kid make a layup, right? [laughs]
- 6:59 – 9:44
Reeves’ parenting regrets: the morning rush and learning grace
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah. I mean, a- actually, just on a very personal level, my deepest regrets as a father were my... the moments when I just didn't have enough patience, and I did just, like, "What, what i- what is wrong with you?" Uh, kind of mi- And, like, it was one son, one of my sons in particular, just getting himself organized to get to school, like getting his shoes on and getting his stuff, and I'd be trying to get him to school. And the other son was really anxious about being late to school-
- BEDr. Becky
[laughs]
- RRRichard Reeves
... and they're both at the same school. And so he's screaming, and like, "And I need to get to work." And I just, like... And the number, a couple of times I even, like, threatened to, pretended to go, leave without him. I thought, "That'll teach him." Just yelling at him. And I just look back on that and just, like, s- see myself in those moments and think, I just didn't have enough grace. I just didn't have enough patience. There wasn't anything wrong with him. He just wasn't ready to take on some of those tasks, and I sh- just should've recognized that and scaffolded him better and just said, "I'm gonna help you do your shoes, and eventually you'll... He's gonna learn to tie his shoes one day," right? He's gonna or go-
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah
- RRRichard Reeves
... uh, uh, and it's okay. And I just had him on, like, a timetable, like a schedule of, like, what you're supposed to be able to do at certain points. And again, I wasn't even comparing him to a sister, except the imaginary one I mentioned earlier. And so my lack of grace and patience around just the different developmental trajectories is something that, that's, that's my deepest regret as a dad. I really got that wrong.
- BEDr. Becky
A- and I just, I just want to say two things in response. First of all, I've done all those things, and continue to do some of those things. Um, so that's number one. There's no one who doesn't at times lead with their own frustration. And I understand kids' development in a decent way, and I still, i- it's not like that thought is accessible or helpful to me all the time. The other thing that I actually think is really important, just for anyone [laughs] to know, is leaving the house in the morning is something that's disguised as a simple task.
- RRRichard Reeves
[laughs]
- BEDr. Becky
And it is actually a full heart-
- RRRichard Reeves
Yes
- BEDr. Becky
... full body, full mind transition for everyone-
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah
- BEDr. Becky
... because it is a transition. You're leaving comfort of home to something unknown for your kid, so there's a lot of emotions. You have your time schedule. Your have their time schedule. It, it's just, I actually think it's helpful to think about leaving the house in general, or even remembering to bring your water bottle. These are all things that have sequences to them. Like that, again, nobody goes from not being able to make a layup to making a layup. First you have to learn, you know, how to dribble. First you have to learn where the ball goes. A- all of those things, leaving the house, remembering your water bottle, doing your homework as soon as you get home.
- RRRichard Reeves
Mm-hmm.
- BEDr. Becky
There's a lot between not being able to do those things and being able to do-
- RRRichard Reeves
Right
- BEDr. Becky
... those things, and maybe boys need even more scaffolding.
- RRRichard Reeves
They do. They do. That's the thing. We need even more, we need to show even more grace to the boys.
- 9:44 – 11:37
How boys share feelings: shoulder-to-shoulder connection over face-to-face
- BEDr. Becky
Okay. I want to talk about feelings. Okay, I want to talk feelings and boys. I mean, I have a million questions that I could ask you about it, but let's just start there. Feelings, boys, fathers. Uh, uh, where does your mind go? Where do you want to jump in?
- RRRichard Reeves
Uh, it goes to, uh, boys express their feelings a bit differently on average. They have feelings. They might be a little bit different, but it's more how they express them. Two things come to mind. One is that, uh, boys and men on average are much better expressing their feelings shoulder-to-shoulder rather than face-to-face, when you're doing something else. It's as a byproduct of something else. And, and understanding that difference in preferred communications-
- BEDr. Becky
Mm
- RRRichard Reeves
... it was a big un- a, a big unlock for our kids, is like, don't stare them in the face when they come home from school.
- BEDr. Becky
Ugh.
- RRRichard Reeves
Give them protein and interrogate them. My wife would do that. She'd like stare at them-
- BEDr. Becky
Right
- RRRichard Reeves
... like, "How was your day? What did you learn?" And they're like, "I don't know." But later on we'd be driving somewhere or watching soccer or video gaming together or something, shoulder-to-shoulder, and they'd be like, "Ah, this, this weird thing happened today with this girl today," you're doing something else. Um, and that, that translates into adult life too. Like, think about fishing, think about golf, think about road trips, think about men going to sport, right? Just, it has to... If it's too direct, it actually kind of puts boys and men off. And so, like, allowing it to emerge in that, it, as part when I was ju- And I think fathers are really part of that, because I think fathers understand that intuitively, which is like, take your kid for a hike, take him out. Don't force it. Don't, don't adopt a, a more feminine way of communicating. Like, if you go to a coffee shop now, you... Uh, just walk into any coffee shop anywhere, and it's full of women staring at each other. Great. I have no problem with that. It's just a style of communication that they're very comfortable with. Whereas-
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah
- RRRichard Reeves
... men, we're just, this is, you probably know, but it's like walking, talking therapy works really well for young men, et cetera. So that's where I can... It will e- it will emerge, and it'll come out. But the other thing is like, again, don't, don't treat men like malfunctioning women when it comes to the way they express their emotions.
- 11:37 – 14:41
Side-door strategies and vulnerable storytelling to open emotional doors
- BEDr. Becky
Exactly. The thing that your side by side made me really think about, and I, I want you, um... Like, I want to talk about this kind of whole body of work, I would say I've done called, I call it deeply feeling kids, right? Which these can be girls too, but to me, these kids, they, um, whenever they feel vulnerable, right? Which, yeah, something bad happened at school, or I feel frustrated, or I was surprised, even a good surprise, but I just didn't expect it. Vulnerability sits really close to shame Because they feel things in such a way that it feels like so much. And for these types of kids, I always say we often approach kids with a front door strategy, which I think for you is, like, looking at them directly. "Hey, I think you're upset that this thing happened at school," and it's kind of like looking at them. And for deeply feeling kids, it just feels like too much. They're- they're actually so worried about what they'll see in your eye, they're overwhelmed, and then they just reject you, right? And they're like, they put their hand over their ears even, right? And for these kids, what we kind of have come up with is a whole thing I call side door strategies, where they still need someone in their house. They don't actually wanna be alone, but if you use the front door, they're gonna slam the door in your face. And then you think, "Oh, they don't wanna talk," but actually then they're just alone in their house, and they're also just as overwhelmed as anyone else. And all these side door strategies are very similar. Same thing, driving in the car. You will hear the amazing things when you're driving in the car. Your kid's lying in their bed, and their head is in the pillow, and all of a sudden they're telling you a story. And you're just like, "Oh, I hope I don't ruin this moment. Just stay here. Just let it go." Right? Exactly. While distracted. Um, or even, and I'm so curious what you think about this, and maybe this is also related to fatherhood, I find for deeply feeling kids, one of the most powerful way that we can kind of enter into their house with them is actually by starting with a kind of vulnerable story about ourselves. Because in that way, we almost say to them, "You're not so alone or bad or whatever after all, because I've been there too." So maybe again, your son gets, you know, doesn't make the soccer team. And if you say, "Ugh, you upset?" They're like, "I'm not upset. Whatever." Right? Or something like that. It's just too, like you would say, like, straight on coffee shop. Versus if I say to my kid, "Um, look," you know, not right away, maybe the next day, "Look, I don't even think I ever told you, but I don't know, I tried out for my Pop Warner team four times before I made it, or I made the team 'cause everyone made it, but I didn't play for four seasons. And I don't know, I was just like, I felt really bad." A- and then you might even move on yourself, like, "Oh, do you want a snack?" Because you might just sense from them, like, they, that's all they can titrate in that moment. But I do find with all my kids, deeply feeling or not, my daughter, my two sons, like, a story from me really helps kind of get some of that emotional connection way more than, you know, a direct question.
- RRRichard Reeves
It's really interesting. Of course, as they get older, they get better at decoding that, right? So they're like, "Oh, I can s- I know why you're telling me this story," right? When they, and they get- become more sophisticated.
- BEDr. Becky
And I think you can own it. Yeah. "Well, I know that happened to you." I mean, there's no, it doesn't have to be such a secret, you know?
- 14:41 – 16:38
Agenda-less parenting and ‘boomerang anxiety’ between parents and kids
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah. I think that's right. I mean, it's one of these, so one of, with one of my sons, um, sometimes it became clear, my wife would sometimes notice it before me during this period where she'd just say, "Yeah, he needs to go up a mountain and build a fire." And so we'd go up a mountain and build a fire and camp out and stuff. And then stuff would come out. Um, and, uh, and it was very interesting 'cause my wife would sometimes say to me, it's like, "He's really st- I know he's really struggling with X or he's struggling with this, so if you could talk about that." And I was like, "Honey, I, I'm not gonna talk about anything. Like, you don't, like, I'm, I have no agenda here. If it comes up while we're building the fire or doing something, that's fine. But, like, he will feel it coming if I've got an agenda. I'm going agen- I am going agenda-less. I am just spending the time with him," right? And, uh, and, and, like, trying to control the agenda. You have to let them come to you, and sure, you can share those vulner- vulnerabilities. Um, but I really like that because it changes the dynamic. It's less about, it's less intrusive. It also, I think that for the best will in the world, I'd be willing to know what you think of this, that, um, I worry quite a lot that among a lot of young kids today, young people today, is that they're actually picking up the anxiety of their parents about them, right? And so, a- and I, and I think the, a really important role for a parent is to actually be concerned, be aware, and so on, but also to kind of communicate confidence and optimism, right? I think at some level, if kids start to feel like, "Well, if, if Mom and Dad are worried about me, damn, I should be worried about me. [laughs] I should be worried about me," right? Whereas, like, you're already worried about yourself if you're young. Uh, and so if Mom and Dad then say, "Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God," right? And so I some- I sometimes think there's a bit of this danger of, like, almost like a boomerang anxiety thing going on at times-
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah
- RRRichard Reeves
... where it's like the kids pick up the anxiety of the parents about the kids, and then the kids get anxious about that, and the kid- then the parents have got something to be anxious about. And so we almost, like, we lose that sense, and maybe I'm just speaking very autobiographically here, of just, like, your parents communicating to you a strong degree of confidence that things are gonna be okay, right? Not, not complacency, but confidence. Does that make sense?
- 16:38 – 19:54
The ‘sturdy pilot’ model: validating feelings without transmitting panic
- BEDr. Becky
That makes so much sense. So two things come to mind. Number one, I think to me the essence of kind of Good Inside in terms of just, like, how we support parents to support their kids is this kind of metaphor of being on a plane, right? Where if you're on the plane and you're freaking out about turbulence, there's three things you could hear from a pilot. First is, "Oh, no. Turbulence. Ah," you know?
- RRRichard Reeves
[laughs]
- BEDr. Becky
And then you're like-
- RRRichard Reeves
[laughs]
- BEDr. Becky
... "Oh, my goodness," you're not even, again, like, you're not even scared of the turbulence.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah.
- BEDr. Becky
You're scared that this person is your leader, right?
- RRRichard Reeves
Right.
- BEDr. Becky
So that's kind of that anxiety.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah.
- BEDr. Becky
I think what can feel equally bad is a pilot saying, "You're making a big deal out of nothing. Uh, like, stop freaking out. I've got this." And then some level you're like, "But I am freaking out," so, like, "just stop freaking out" doesn't, like, really feel like a great intervention. And actually, do you not even realize it's turbulent? Because I want you to know this, and I think we call this, like, being a sturdy pilot, which is your ability at once to see someone else's feelings as real and to not be overwhelmed by them. Because there's nothing as scary as your overwhelming feelings being contagious.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah.
- BEDr. Becky
And I think that's kind of saying kind of what you're saying. "I believe you, but I also believe in you. I believe in us. I believe in your competence. So, hey, I hear you screaming. I get it. You're scared, and I've flown this plane before. I know we're gonna get to Los Angeles safely. I'm gonna get off the loudspeaker and go do my job." And then you're like, "Oh, yes," right? And I think what you're saying, you know, to extend it further, is when our kids are anxious about something, and let's even go back to this not making the soccer team. "Mom, I'm the worst soccer player," we can communicate anxiety to them in a lot of ways- Where we're thinking we're helping. 'Cause one way is, "Oh, my goodness, you're right. You're the worst soccer player, and your friends are gonna make fun of you, and tomorrow's gonna be awful." Like, that would be bad. I don't actually think many parents say that. But in thinking we're helping, we often are actually communicating our anxiety, and then you're actually communicating to your kid that you don't believe in their competence to cope by saying, "You know what? Right now, I'm going on the internet, and I'm finding three other soccer teams that are right around, and we're gonna go out to the tryout tomorrow," and you're trying to, quote, "make them happy."
- RRRichard Reeves
We're gonna solve the problem. Yeah, by... Yeah.
- BEDr. Becky
Right, which also makes a kid feel like, "Oh, I was anxious about not making the team, but my parent is even more anxious. Like, they don't like this version of me that didn't make soccer, and so I guess I should never feel this way either 'cause it's just bad." And so I think, again, that sturdy pilot. It's like, "Look, I get it. This stinks, and you're right, it might be hard to go to school tomorrow because all your friends made the team, and you are going because I know you're the kind of kid who can even get through a bad day." 'Cause I feel like there's so much at stake with fatherhood now, and there's such an opportunity in this world where if traditionally or maybe just stereotypically fathers have been better at the, like, pull up your bootstraps, stop crying, and stop making a big deal out of this. The power of combining that intention with, "Look, I get you're upset. That makes sense, and it won't feel bad as it does, you know, it won't feel as bad as it does today in a couple days." But that first part, that, like, emotional connectedness as even part of the equation, I- I'm curious where you see that living in fatherhood or just maybe more generally how you're thinking about kind of modern fatherhood or reinvigorating fatherhood in 2025.
- 19:54 – 22:21
Modern fatherhood: dads matter (even after separation) and dads’ unique strengths
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah, I mean, there's a couple of things. One is, I think, to make sure that fatherhood matters almost regardless of the romantic relationship between the parents. I think that that's a problem-
- BEDr. Becky
Mm
- RRRichard Reeves
... which is if the parents separate, you somehow, like, the father's basically benched, and I think that's a huge problem. Um, but also, so just, uh, actually what you just said about the role of dads. I- I've been at different stages. I've been very influenced by the work of Anna Machin, who's a evolutionary anthropologist at Ox- which has a book called The Life of Dad, which is a really great book. And one of the things that she shows in that and e- and her subsequent work is that dads seem to be particularly good at this stage of life in early adolescence and so on, where you're kind of getting out of the nest, right, where you're starting to kind of take some risks, develop relationships, explore the world, you know, spread your wings, and so on. And that does seem to be something that actually just dads seem to have a little bit of a magic around that, um, and a bit of risk, a bit of kind of controlled risk-taking. One of the things I- I learned actually from Sarah Hrdy's book is that, um, dads get an oxytocin spike, uh, like moms do, but they get it from a different activity. So oxytocin's the love hormone, as- as you and probably most of your followers will know, but you get the love hormone, and moms get it from cuddling, uh, in particular, it's that real skin-to-skin contact, and dads can get a bit of that, but they get the biggest oxytocin spike from throwing their kid in the air and catching them.
- BEDr. Becky
Mm, mm-hmm.
- RRRichard Reeves
And doing stuff with them, like some controlled risks and putting them out in the world. And then as they hit adolescence, the dads are quite good at helping the kids, like, grow and go outwards, right? Get out of the nest. And so, and I find that r- I mean, of course these are on average, it's not true for all, but I think that's quite a beautiful thing.
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah.
- RRRichard Reeves
Um, because actually, a lot of dads, don't know how you've been, just how you feel about this. A lot of dads, and I'll include myself in this, don't have the same kind of bonding experience with really young kids that moms do. Um, and sometimes in modern society, we can be made to feel a bit bad about that because we're like, "Why do I not feel the same way that mom does," right? Even though there are good biological reasons why we don't. But it's incredibly important that we're still useful, and we're doing everything. But I think I- I hear a lot of dads sort of beating themselves up over the fact they don't quite, they're not feeling it with this little baby.
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah.
- RRRichard Reeves
Right? But I, but I often reassure them, say, "First of all, that's fine. Everyone's different. But by the way, give it 10 years, 12 years, and you are going to be incredibly ... Right? You're important throughout, but, like, you wait till those teenage years come, and you are gonna be magnificently important to your kids." And so it takes a long time to raise kids well, right? It's not just about the first few years.
- 22:21 – 28:32
Connection as the long game: secure base, independence, and the teen years
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah, definitely. I- I think that makes me think about a couple things. So number one, I didn't know that, that kind of a lot of moms have this oxytocin spike around the cuddling. So you're saying about the kind of connectedness. And dads, in a way, have, i- in this research, oxytocin spikes around kind of, in a way, the, like, separation moment. Like, even throwing a kid up is like, "Look-
- RRRichard Reeves
Exactly
- BEDr. Becky
... you're your own person."
- RRRichard Reeves
Exactly.
- BEDr. Becky
"You are not me."
- RRRichard Reeves
A bit of distance.
- BEDr. Becky
It's like maybe adventure, but there's separation.
- RRRichard Reeves
And a bit of risk.
- BEDr. Becky
Right?
- RRRichard Reeves
A bit of play.
- BEDr. Becky
And-
- RRRichard Reeves
Play and risk and distance.
- BEDr. Becky
Exactly.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yes.
- BEDr. Becky
Play and risk and distance.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yes.
- BEDr. Becky
And seeing their own kid as their own person. That's what play and distance, like, oh, I am not you, where some moms who get this oxytocin spike from almost like a confusion of like, what is me? What is you? We're, we're just so together. And I would just say bo- both is very important. In fact, I think it's so helpful for just everyone to know independence comes from dependence. When you ha- which, which doesn't mean, you know, you should just stay next to your parent all the time. But what it means is when you feel like you have a secure base, when you feel like you have someone you can go home to, when you take risks, when something doesn't go well, after you've explored, you can come back and recharge. When you've built that security, you are able to be independent and go do things. I think it's actually the whole difference between whether you are an explorer, which is what we want our kids to be, or a nomad. We do not want our kids to be nomads when they're teens. That is a horrible anchorless feeling. But when you know you have a secure base to come home to from a connected place, you can try a lot of things, even really small things. Like, I take, I take the math bonus problem, and I try it because I just know if I don't do well, my parents will understand. I can take on these adventures. And so the only other layer I would think about is I often think of all these strategies, and people say to me often, like, "You have the best strategies or the best scripts," and we all need a little thing to get us through the moment. But as our kids get older, the only strategy we actually have is connection Like, if you're not connected to your kid, they won't take your advice, they won't do the things you want them to do. I- I- it's just there's, there's nothing between us. And so to me, those early years, like, we have to just make those deposits of connection so when our kids are older, and we want them to be more independent, and we want them to make good decisions, like, the thing we're really banking on is connection. And so I think one of the things I hear from dads a lot when their kids are younger is, "Okay, I, I, I feel guilty. Like, I don't love the baby stage. I don't even like the toddler stage." And I say, "That's fine. That's fine." And not liking certain stages is very different from whether or not I have the skills to stay connected enough to my kids during this stage so I can be that rockstar father when I'm 13, so resentment and distant hasn't built up so much that there's just not enough between us.
- RRRichard Reeves
Right. Exactly. I mean, the, the nice thing about the connection metaphor, too, is that it's not like you do the connecting. It's not like putting a outlet in- plug into an outlet, right? I'm gonna connect with you now. As they get older, it's, it's two way, right? They're connecting with you, and you're connecting with them, but you've laid the foundations for it, uh, that, so that they want to connect with you. And I think this, I like your analogy of the foundation and ex- and then exploration and going out, and that's such a difficult balance, 'cause you wanna keep your kids safe, and you want them to be hap- but you also want them to go out. And, and one of the studies, so I think that dads are e- especially important for boys, but, uh, one of the studies I found that made a big impression on me was that the mental health of women in their 30s was quite strongly predicted by the quality of the relationship with their father when they were 16. And I think that's intuitive. I'd love to know what you think about this. Kind of intuitive, like, you're a young woman. You're figuring how to be in the world. Like, how do you negotiate? Like, you're dating. You're figuring that out. It's like, what's, what's your relationship with your dad like? And it feels to me is like, like there's something, like a dad and his teenage daughter, like, if she has a great relationship with her dad-
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah
- RRRichard Reeves
... I sort of feel that is gonna set her up well, right, for dating and kind of life-
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah
- RRRichard Reeves
... et cetera, which would show up decades later.
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah. I, I haven't read that research, and like all research, I'm sure there's nuances around it-
- RRRichard Reeves
Sure
- BEDr. Becky
... right? Which of course doesn't mean you have a bad relationship, you're destined for poor mental health.
- RRRichard Reeves
That's true of all of these-
- BEDr. Becky
I guess I think-
- RRRichard Reeves
That's true of all of these things that we're talking about right here
- BEDr. Becky
... of course, of course. They're all nuggets.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah.
- 28:32 – 31:37
Healthy distance and relational ‘tissue’: why dads’ presence and confidence matter
- RRRichard Reeves
That's really hard to say, though, isn't it? If you think about it, 'cause you've used distance then almost as a, as, as, as a positive thing. But a degree of healthy distance, uh, especially as they get older, is incredibly important. First of all, it's very important, I think, for kids not to feel like their parents' wellbeing is overly affected by how the kid is doing, right? I've seen that so often, where the, kind of, the kid is also knows that their parents' happiness is intrinsically wrapped up. [laughs] That's a, that's an unfair responsibility to put, to put on, on the kid. But I also do think there's something to be said for, like, a good relationship requires distance, otherwise it wouldn't be a relationship, right? As you said earlier, that whole kind of like melding thing.
- BEDr. Becky
[laughs]
- RRRichard Reeves
It's like, actually, to have a relationship with someone requires distance. Like, it's like a synapse. There has to be a gap-
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah
- RRRichard Reeves
... for the relationship to build across. And as your kids get older, that distance is necessarily going to be wider in many o- in many ways, 'cause they're more independent, and therefore the kind of tissue that connects across it becomes even more important, too. Their relational skill and the willingness to let go and the willingness to encourage appropriate risk-taking. I really worry that a lot of dads now kind of feel like they're either not, they're, as I said, they're malfunctioning moms, or they're not connected enough, or they're failing, or because they're not with the mom anymore, they don't matter anymore, and I just think that kind of, that's, that's, that's such a dangerous thought. Like, every dad matters to every kid.
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah.
- RRRichard Reeves
And, uh, and that message I think has got, cannot be said too loud.
- BEDr. Becky
I, I think that's exactly right. And look, I think we can, you know, kind of end on that note, 'cause I think that that, that's, uh, something we're aligned on, you know, that dads matter. You know, I think now also just more than ever, our kids are faced with so many things. They're bombarded by so much more on the internet. So much more is coming at them. And so having a mom, having a dad who can help you in very different ways [laughs] through all of those kind of turbulent moments, it really, really matters. And the other thing you're saying, uh, I think is inspiration. I think, you know, if, i- if I'm a parent, whether I'm a mom or a dad, and I find myself a little bit more oriented toward togetherness, and I have a little bit more anxiety about separation, I can be inspired By my partner and say, "Hey, what would it be like if I had 10 more percent of my partner?" And if I'm a parent who's like, "Look, my kid's gonna be fine," like, that's also inspiration of, "Okay, what if I had a little bit more of my partner? What if I was the one who went to my kid at night and just said, 'Hey, sounds like a tough day. I'm here if you wanna talk.'" And maybe they don't, but again, I think the experiments we all do as parents to kind of moderate our starting points, it's not because that's better or worse, but that's also really nice for our kids to see us once in a while in a slightly different role, you know, than they're used to.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah, exactly, 'cause the danger of these differences we're talking about is that they become traps, right? And that, that, you end up do- you end up doing this, I end up doing this.
- BEDr. Becky
Exactly.
- RRRichard Reeves
You gotta go against that grain sometimes, too. Um, but it's a team, and I also think it's not just within the family, it's kind of within society, too. I'm moved by the findings that dads matter for other people's kids as well. Like, it takes a village to raise kids, but some of the villagers do have to be fathers.
- 31:37 – 33:53
Closing invitation: discomfort as growth and welcoming dads into the community
- BEDr. Becky
Exact. I, I could not agree more. Well, Richard, thank you so much, and look forward to more discussions with you, and really appreciate all your work here. So one thing I wanna say before we end today is a lot of these topics might feel uncomfortable. One of the things I always tell kind of the Good Inside world is discomfort is a sign we're doing something new, not a sign we're doing something wrong. Our brain might say, "Oh, this is weird. This is awkward. I don't know about this." That is actually our brain's way of telling our body, "I'm doing something different. I've never talked about this before. I've never reflected about this before." It's kind of like skiing down a ski slope you've never been on before versus one you've gone down, I don't know, 900,000 times. It's going to feel awkward. And so if there's something about this episode where it's kind of bringing up feelings, you're like, "Oh, I don't know about this," that makes sense. I know we can't change the hard, but we can change the alone. And so if this topic feels a little hard, what a great reason to share it with someone else, to talk about it, to text about it. I can't wait to see what comes up. And the other thing I just wanna say directly, my heart's beating as I [laughs] come out with this, is I really wanna do a better job of inviting dads into the Good Inside community, into the Good Inside movement, into conversation. I wanna know what's on your mind. I wanna know what you want to hear about. I wanna know about moments that even I say things, and you're like, "Dr. Becky, that is so not relevant for me," or, "That has a huge assumption," or, "That's just not the way I would ever say it or how I'd wanna think about it." I have a lot to learn here, and I want to do that learning. So please drop a comment. Please email us. Please respond to our newsletter and tell us what's up. I want to be on this journey with you, and I can't wait for what's ahead. [outro music]
Episode duration: 33:55
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Transcript of episode DEkOs55vec4
