How to Improve Your Memory & Cognitive Function at Any Age | Dr. Alan Castel

1. 0:00 – 2:41

   Dr. Alan Castel

   1. ACDr. Alan Castel0:00

      Good learning happens through making mistakes. Just seeing something many times doesn't mean you'll remember it well. You've seen the Apple logo so many times, of course you know all the features, but then when you quiz people and test them, and I do this in my class, people aren't sure, is the bite on the left or the right-hand side? Is there a stem or a leaf? The best way to remember something is to, again, failures. I'll have you draw it without looking at it, and you struggle, and you go, "Wait, is it on the left or right? And is it a stem or a leaf?" And you're starting to question all of these things. Then when you look at the logo again, you're gonna engage in better learning than if you hadn't done that error-full kind of trial beforehand.

   2. AHAndrew Huberman0:35

      Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. [guitar music] I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Alan Castel. Dr. Alan Castel is a professor of psychology at the University of California, Los Angeles. He is one of the world's foremost experts on human memory and cognitive aging. Today, we discuss what determines if we remember something, like a name or an event or how to do something, and we discuss how to improve our ability to remember information of all kinds at any age. We also discuss how any time we plan or imagine something about our future, we are always building that on memories of our past, and what that means for our ability to come up with new ideas and plans for our lives. And we discuss how our memory changes across the lifespan, and why some people retain exceptional cognitive abilities well into their 80s and 90s and even beyond, and what any of us can do to improve our chances of maintaining or even getting better at memory as we age. Indeed, while most people assume that memory decline is an inevitable consequence of getting older, Dr. Castel explains research that tells us the story is far more nuanced and more optimistic. In fact, we cover one of the more powerful and perhaps surprising influences on our rate of cognitive aging, which is your beliefs about aging itself. And finally, we discuss so-called SuperAgers, which is the name given to older adults whose memory performance rivals that of people decades younger. He explains which SuperAger protocols are accessible to anyone, and how they can be incorporated into everyday life to benefit our mental and our physical health. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Dr. Alan Castel. Dr. Alan Castel, welcome.

   3. ACDr. Alan Castel2:40

      Thank you. Nice to

2. 2:41 – 4:49

   What Is Memory?, Reconstruction & Metacognition

   1. ACDr. Alan Castel2:41

      be here.

   2. AHAndrew Huberman2:41

      You're gonna tell us how to build up and keep our memory. But let's start by asking, what is memory? Or rather, how do you conceptualize memory? From the standpoint of we move through life, we experience things, let's call it passively, or we try to remember certain things, what determines what information we hold on to, how long, and so on?

   3. ACDr. Alan Castel3:04

      It's a great question, and memory is really a mental representation of the past, and by its very nature, it's reconstructive. It's never always accurate, and I think that's why it's so mysterious and fascinating that you and I can see the same event and then remember it differently a week or a day later. Um, and it starts kind of almost at the sensory level, and sometimes our mind plays tricks on us, and that's how I got interested in this field, that how can I think I know something and yet not know it as well as I do? And this is something that's called metacognition, our awareness of our own cognition. And as a personal anecdote, when, you know, I was in fifth or sixth grade, I had one line in the play The Wizard of Oz. It's a line I practiced again and again. "Listen, everyone, there's a cyclone on the way. Hurry and get into the cellar." And of course, on opening night, "Listen, everyone, there's a cellar on the way. Hurry and get into the cyclone."

   4. AHAndrew Huberman3:57

      Nice.

   5. ACDr. Alan Castel3:58

      And I was thinking, "How did I manage that, having memorized this line?" Most of the audience probably didn't even notice. But that, to me, was an early exposure to memory is not always kind of a function of what you do with the information. And then, you know, in high school, I had another exposure to memory where I just memorized a lot of things, and that got me pretty far in algebra and chemistry. In fact, I almost memorized the entire periodic table. But this was using mnemonics, you know, little rhymes or songs. And I realized in my first year of college that I really didn't have a strong understanding of chemistry, even though I could use all these terms. And thankfully, I took an introductory psychology class, and I realized people studied learning and memory and kind of false memories and why memory can and cannot be accurate, and I, I was hooked. I found that so fascinating, and I still do today.

3. 4:49 – 8:22

   Mnemonics, Remembering Names & Deeper Learning

   1. AHAndrew Huberman4:49

      I'm both impressed and, um, intrigued to ask more about memorization of the periodic table. Uh, first question is about mnemonics and ways that we, um, try and batch and learn information by pairing it to other things. Trying to remember a room full of people's names, and, you know, you, uh, could pair the first letter of their name with a fruit or what, you know, people do these things. To me, that seems like a very inefficient way to learn because you're adding more information that you need to store away. So the first question is, is that the best way to learn large batches of information?

   2. ACDr. Alan Castel5:25

      I think it's almost a workaround, and that's the first kind of problem people say is, "I can't remember names." And by their nature, names used to be descriptive of a person's occupation. Someone's a baker, we call them Mr. Baker. But that's, of course, evolved with time. And names, you know, I tell people, if you can't remember someone's name, that's probably a natural forgetting, but you remember if you had an interesting conversation or you remember if you can trust them. That's probably more important. So then to engage our kind of knowledge base so that we can remember names, we need to make this arbitrary link. And so I tell people my last name is Pastel, Castel. You know, Castel rhymes with Pastel, and my grandfather used pastels, let's say. And so people can then make this link. But like you say, that's effortful. It takes time. It takes time away from kind of the essence of something else we could talk about. And it also leads to these kind of predictable memory errors. So people say, "Oh, I remember his name was Pastel," when in fact it's Castel. So I think we have to almost trick our memory into remembering things that might be somewhat arbitrary, and that becomes more pronounced as we get older. You know, there's more Davids, there's more Andrews, and it's just more interference. And so to get around that, we have to, you know, use deliberate practice, retrieval practice, use the name several times. But I tell my students, whose names I often forget [chuckles] but I'll still remember topics we've talked about or, you know, you know, how they felt about something, and I think that's more important than sometimes just remembering a name.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman6:56

      To remember chemistry or, uh, some other subject that involves nomenclature and, uh, not everyday terms unless you're a chemist, but to really understand the deeper mechanics of that thing and remember that, it-- what are some better tools? I want to say, and I'm not a memory researcher, that it might be helpful to think in terms of verbs, not labels. So rather than thinking about a particular element just in terms of its name, but think about how it interacts with something else or, um, how it gives or receives a charge in, uh, you know, certain conditions.

   4. ACDr. Alan Castel7:32

      Absolutely. I think that's what you're looking for is deeper learning, deeper semantic learning, and this has been referred to as levels of processing. So I was working at a very low level of processing when I'm, you know, making up Happy Henry, you know, for hydrogen and helium. Um, but if you can start to visualize things or interact with them, and that's why we wanna have, you know, chemistry labs or places where... I found chemistry very abstract. I think that's why I, I didn't really engage with it. But I found psychology to be something that we were interacting with every day. I was making these memory errors. I saw my parents and grandparents remembering and forgetting things, and I thought, you know, "How does that happen?" And the brain is so complex that I don't think we'll ever completely understand, you know, why this m-memory error might happen. But I think this awareness, um, is really important. And a lot of l-good learning happens through making mistakes. Um,

4. 8:22 – 10:43

   The Penny & Apple Logo, Noticing vs Seeing, Learning Through Mistakes

   1. ACDr. Alan Castel8:22

      you know, I've, you know, I play piano, and I, you know, struggle and-- but I know when I make a mistake, I'm gonna have to work on this. Um, and I see that with my children. You learn a lot by making these mistakes. And I think that illustrates also how our memory works, that just seeing something many times doesn't mean you'll remember it well. And this is a classic demonstration that, you know, you've seen a penny many times, and you don't remember all the features on the penny. I've updated that to the Apple logo. You know, you've seen the Apple logo so many times, of course, you know all the features. But then when you quiz people and test them, and I do this in my class, people aren't sure is the bite on the left or the right-hand side. Is there a stem or a leaf? Um, but if you make people draw it while they're looking at it, they're gonna remember it better.

   2. AHAndrew Huberman9:06

      While they're looking at the actual logo.

   3. ACDr. Alan Castel9:07

      While they're looking at it, or if they... Actually, the best way to remember something is to, again, failures. I'll have you draw it without looking at it, and you struggle, and you're, "Wait, is it on the left or right? And is this a stem or a leaf?" And you're starting to question all of these things. Then when you look at the logo again, you're gonna engage in better learning than if you hadn't done that error-full kind of trial beforehand.

   4. AHAndrew Huberman9:28

      Even if you don't redraw it correctly.

   5. ACDr. Alan Castel9:30

      Exactly.

   6. AHAndrew Huberman9:31

      Mm-hmm.

   7. ACDr. Alan Castel9:31

      Yeah. So th-this sort of thing is, you know, in a, in a academic setting, we don't want failure. We want people to do well. But I think this sort of retrieval failure with some, you know, corrective feedback is really beneficial, and that's kind of how you learn through life. You know, you make mistakes, and then you correct them. But if you're constantly just doing it the right way, you're not really noticing these features. And we've tried to extend this to other domains like, you know, it's called habituation. You stop noticing things around you, like where the nearest fire extinguisher is, let's say.

   8. AHAndrew Huberman10:01

      Mm-hmm.

   9. ACDr. Alan Castel10:01

      And I guarantee you, hopefully, there's one somewhere nearby, and you've probably walked by it many times, but you stop noticing it. And it's only until you'll need it you'll realize, "Wait, where is it?" And so we've done this study where you have to, instead of me telling you where it is, you have to get up and find it. And so now you're engaging with the environment. You're gonna go look for it and be like, "Gosh, it's been there the whole time. I've walked by it so many times. I've never noticed it." And I think that's the difference between seeing something and noticing it. So as someone who studies vision, we know a lot of information reaches the retina, but then how much of it reaches our kind of more conscious level? And not all of it does, and I think that's what makes psychology interesting.

5. 10:43 – 14:05

   Sponsors: Wealthfront & Helix

   1. AHAndrew Huberman10:43

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6. 14:05 – 17:42

   Neuroplasticity, Frustration, Curiosity & Mindset

   1. ACDr. Alan Castel14:05

      Mm-hmm.

   2. AHAndrew Huberman14:05

      So it's the gap between desired performance and current performance that actually triggers the opportunity for plasticity.

   3. ACDr. Alan Castel14:12

      Yeah, and those can be uncomfortable positions, right? Where it's like, "I don't know this."

   4. AHAndrew Huberman14:16

      Right.

   5. ACDr. Alan Castel14:16

      "Am I, am I going to be able to learn it?" And I think that's the, this metacognitive aspect of-

   6. AHAndrew Huberman14:21

      Mm

   7. ACDr. Alan Castel14:21

      ... when are you aware of that, and a lot of learning now is unsupervised learning. You know, it's not that you're going in classrooms and s- teachers are telling you what to do. You wanna learn a new instrument, you might do a lot of it on YouTube, right? You're gonna try and figure it out. You wanna learn a new language, you wanna learn how to communicate with people, there's gonna be a lot of trial and error. And I think kind of the best learners are the ones who persist, um, who are curious, because that's how you're gonna get a lot of feedback, asking not just lots of questions, but the right questions.

   8. AHAndrew Huberman14:51

      Yeah, and I think the frustration and agitation, I do believe that's the, you know, the release of, uh, catecholamines, you know, epinephrine, norepinephrine, and those change the milieu around synapses and, um, let them change. You know, all the things that-

   9. ACDr. Alan Castel15:07

      Yeah

   10. AHAndrew Huberman15:08

       ... we want to avoid. [laughs]

   11. ACDr. Alan Castel15:09

       Right. [laughs]

   12. AHAndrew Huberman15:09

       All the things that actually allow us to learn. It could be that people that are very good at learning and have this willingness to embrace so-called beginner's mind, like, you know-

   13. ACDr. Alan Castel15:17

       Mm-hmm

   14. AHAndrew Huberman15:17

       ... and like, okay, they're excellent in one domain and they're perfectly happy to be a raw beginner in a different domain. I always wonder if they experience f- agitation the same way that anyone else would, but that they don't ex- ex- have the same relationship to it.

   15. ACDr. Alan Castel15:31

       Yeah.

   16. AHAndrew Huberman15:31

       Like, "Oh, here's that autonomic arousal again, you know, here it is," and maybe they don't conceptualize it as frustration. So in, in terms-

   17. ACDr. Alan Castel15:37

       Yeah

   18. AHAndrew Huberman15:37

       ... of getting better at learning and remembering things-

   19. ACDr. Alan Castel15:41

       [laughs]

   20. AHAndrew Huberman15:41

       ... um, have you or any other laboratories parsed kind of people's, um, framework around it? Like, I know there's a vast literature around growth mindset, but-

   21. ACDr. Alan Castel15:50

       Right

   22. AHAndrew Huberman15:50

       ... I'm ta- I'm thinking more in terms of how people think about their own levels of frustration.

   23. ACDr. Alan Castel15:57

       Mm-hmm.

   24. AHAndrew Huberman15:57

       'Cause if you go, "Oh, like here I am, frustrated again."

   25. ACDr. Alan Castel15:59

       Yeah.

   26. AHAndrew Huberman15:59

       "Awesome. Let's go."

   27. ACDr. Alan Castel16:00

       Yeah.

   28. AHAndrew Huberman16:00

       "Now's the opportunity," versus, "Ugh, like I'm, I'm terrible at this. I know I should push through." I, I just wonder whether or not mindset can actually make a difference.

   29. ACDr. Alan Castel16:08

       I think it can. I think our goals can play a big role. A lot of the learning we do is sometimes, you know, learning to take a test or learning, you know, something because it'll be on a test. But as we get through life, we realize if you're interested in bird watching or music or skateboarding, you know, a lot of this is gonna be observational learning, it's gonna be talking to other people. So I think it comes down to the curiosity, which is almost closing this knowledge gap where here I am, but I wanna be here.

   30. AHAndrew Huberman16:33

       Mm.
7. 17:42 – 24:28

   Maintaining vs Learning New Things, Habits, Novelty & Emotional Memory

   1. AHAndrew Huberman17:42

      that it's important to continue to seek out new information as we get older in order to maintain our memory, or is it sufficient to just make some effort to remember the past, what we need to d- do to get through our day? You know, I think this gets down to this question people think, I really should be striving to m- to keep my memory. Everyone wants to keep their memory.

   2. ACDr. Alan Castel18:03

      Yeah.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman18:03

      Sure, that makes sense. But how hard should people push to learn new information as opposed to, you know, maintaining what they've got?

   4. ACDr. Alan Castel18:10

      Yeah, it's a great question. I think it's a little bit of both, and you wanna have that sort of balance. So if, you know, if you-

   5. AHAndrew Huberman18:16

      Mm

   6. ACDr. Alan Castel18:16

      ... if you play piano, my father in his 80s and n- 90s still plays piano. I don't think he's learning new pieces, but he's strengthening the, the pieces he knows, and that keeps him sharp. Um, on the other hand, being exposed to new things, if you're traveling, if you're talking to different people, that can be really important for things like even neurogenesis. You wanna, you know develop new brain cells, which we know doesn't just stop as we, you know, reach a certain age. So it's probably a, a bit of both. And people ask me, you know, what's the best thing to keep my brain sharp is it crossword puzzles? And that's interesting because I think as we get older, our actual verbal knowledge is maintained if not improved. So in a way you're strengthening a strength, and I think that can be beneficial, but probably the other things to do are do new things. You know, go outside and appreciate the birds or talk to someone who has a different perspective, or you go to a different restaurant even. All of these things I find as I get older, that I have a lot of routines, but it's when I start to violate these routines, take a different way to work, or you know, try something different at a restaurant, I can almost feel like, wow, that was a different experience today. I did something else. And I think so, I think both are really important.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman19:26

      We do get set in our ways. That's a-

   8. ACDr. Alan Castel19:28

      Yeah

   9. AHAndrew Huberman19:28

      ... that's a real thing.

   10. ACDr. Alan Castel19:29

       You know, habits can be healthy, and we can talk more about that because they're, those routines, you know, I drove this way and I didn't get into a car accident, or I even notice my students in my classes, after the first couple of weeks they all sit in the same seats. I'm always like, "Why, why is that?" And it's like, well, I didn't get attacked by a snake here, so it's safe. Maybe evolutionarily [laughs] it makes sense.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman19:50

       Mm.

   12. ACDr. Alan Castel19:50

       But I'll sometimes halfway through the quarter say, "Okay, I want everyone to get up and switch sides and sit somewhere else," and students are like, "This is terrible, like I have to move." But there are some benefits to having a different perspective, uh, both physically and possibly mentally, that you're gonna then remember things differently.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman20:06

       Mm-hmm.

   14. ACDr. Alan Castel20:07

       And I know if I've taken a class in a different classroom every year, I can almost revisit each of those rooms and try and recall what I learned. But if you learn all in the same spot, there's a lot of interference. So I think there, there can be benefits to changing our habits, um, but it can be uncomfortable, especially at first.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman20:25

       I went to a lot of scientific meetings early in my career, and I would change seats at, after every break.

   16. ACDr. Alan Castel20:30

       Mm.

   17. AHAndrew Huberman20:30

       It was the only way I could-

   18. ACDr. Alan Castel20:31

       Yeah

   19. AHAndrew Huberman20:32

       ... stay awake through all the talks.

   20. ACDr. Alan Castel20:33

       Yep.

   21. AHAndrew Huberman20:34

       Some talks would naturally keep me awake and some just wouldn't. I mean, they don't tell you this-

   22. ACDr. Alan Castel20:37

       Yeah

   23. AHAndrew Huberman20:37

       ... but there are a lot of great talks at meetings, and there are often a lot of boring ones, too.

   24. ACDr. Alan Castel20:41

       Sure. Yep. [laughs]

   25. AHAndrew Huberman20:41

       And you feel obligated to stay.

   26. ACDr. Alan Castel20:43

       Yeah.

   27. AHAndrew Huberman20:43

       Um, later in my career I gave myself permission to get up and-

   28. ACDr. Alan Castel20:46

       Yeah

   29. AHAndrew Huberman20:46

       ... take a walk. Uh, but, you know.

   30. ACDr. Alan Castel20:47

       Right.
8. 24:28 – 29:28

   "Mental Photographs," Photo-Taking & Imagining the Future

   1. AHAndrew Huberman24:28

      I-

   2. ACDr. Alan Castel24:28

      Right

   3. AHAndrew Huberman24:28

      ... I didn't. But a long time ago, I decided, um, I was in a, in a really cool circumstance. I was on a picnic, it was with my first girlfriend, and I remember thinking like, "God, she's so beautiful."

   4. ACDr. Alan Castel24:38

      Mm.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman24:38

      "I'm just gonna take a picture." We were just sitting at this park that's up in the hills behind, uh, where I used to live, and I just went [imitates camera shutter] and I-

   6. ACDr. Alan Castel24:45

      Oh

   7. AHAndrew Huberman24:45

      ... decided, okay, like I remember the picture. Now, of course, in my mind now, it's bl- it's blurry. Like I don't remember-

   8. ACDr. Alan Castel24:50

      Yeah

   9. AHAndrew Huberman24:50

      ... specific details, but I remember more or less, I think I remember the, the angle.

   10. ACDr. Alan Castel24:54

       Mm.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman24:54

       It was that. And then like a year and a half ago, I was in, uh, Manhattan, I was in an Uber, and I just was like, maybe I could just do that for a Like a trivial-

   12. ACDr. Alan Castel25:03

       Mm-hmm

   13. AHAndrew Huberman25:04

       ... street scene.

   14. ACDr. Alan Castel25:04

       Okay.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman25:04

       So I just like, look, there was the, one of those scaffolds for construction, and I just decided, you know, just do that, and there was a guy walking by. And I'm like, "I wonder if I'll remember it." And I still remember it. Now, the question I have is-

   16. ACDr. Alan Castel25:15

       Yeah

   17. AHAndrew Huberman25:15

       ... do I actually remember the content of what I saw?

   18. ACDr. Alan Castel25:18

       Mm-hmm.

   19. AHAndrew Huberman25:19

       Besides just their crude-

   20. ACDr. Alan Castel25:21

       Mm-hmm

   21. AHAndrew Huberman25:21

       ... you know, the scaffold, the guy. In one case, you know, my, my girlfriend, we were sitting on this nice big lawn above, there's just this lake there. It's, it's, it's a beautiful spot, uh, in Palo Alto. It's still there. Or is what's stamped in my decision to do that and the, and the sort of conscious collection of it. Is, are, is it... Th- these weren't, like, big emotionally salient events. What the, the difference between these visual memories and other visual memories is that the emotional load wasn't that high.

   22. ACDr. Alan Castel25:51

       Hmm.

   23. AHAndrew Huberman25:52

       But I made the decision to do it. It was like it was coming from me.

   24. ACDr. Alan Castel25:56

       Yeah.

   25. AHAndrew Huberman25:56

       It wasn't... So I'm not just trying to remember, like, like, we also went to, uh, well, it was her senior and my junior prom. Like, I don't... I remember a few things from that prom, but I can't remem- I don't have a visual picture of the prom, but the prom was also a lot more emotionally, you know, laden than anything I've just described.

   26. ACDr. Alan Castel26:14

       Yeah.

   27. AHAndrew Huberman26:14

       Does that make sense?

   28. ACDr. Alan Castel26:15

       Yeah.

   29. AHAndrew Huberman26:15

       So-

   30. ACDr. Alan Castel26:15

       It's a fascinating question because I think selection is the, the important thing here, that you're making a conscious decision, like, this is a special moment.
9. 29:28 – 35:07

   Eyewitness Memory, the Ronald Cotton Case, Confidence vs Accuracy

   1. AHAndrew Huberman29:28

      Never thought about it that way. It's the perfect time, I think, to raise the quote that, uh, a former guest on this podcast put on social media the other day. They weren't his words, but this, Morgan Housel, who did a really wonderful episode on the psychology of money, um, and I, I really love his first book, but also his second book, um, The Art of Spending Money. Um, he put out a... He said it's a Russian quote. "The past is more unpredictable than the future."

   2. ACDr. Alan Castel29:57

      [laughs] Yeah.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman29:58

      Goodness, that raises questions about eyewitness testimony, um, spousal arguments. You know, I occasionally will get an email, "My wife and I are having a debate"-

   4. ACDr. Alan Castel30:06

      Right

   5. AHAndrew Huberman30:06

      ... or, "My husband and I are debate..." And, and I have a rule. I, I don't get into, uh, spousal d- uh-

   6. ACDr. Alan Castel30:11

      [laughs]

   7. AHAndrew Huberman30:11

      ... uh, debates or arguments of any kind. So do we remember things the way they happened, or do we confabulate? Uh, do we, um, m- muck it all up?

   8. ACDr. Alan Castel30:21

      You know, I don't think we muck it all up, and I don't think we do it intentionally either. But as a result of all the information we have in our memory, we're constantly interpreting, you know, the future and our current state. And you spoke a little bit about eyewitness memory. I think that's a really good example of that, where something horrible might have happened, and, like your experience, where you think you're taking a picture and you're gonna remember everything, and it feels like you will. I can remember the shirt. I can remember the smell. I can remember the weather. Um, and sometimes that can be accurate, but a lot of research shows that sometimes we misremember these things. In some of these classic cases, unfortunately, um, you know, now that there's DNA evidence, you can determine that maybe they got the wrong person. And when that happens, you wanna look back and say, "How could that happen?" And some of it comes down to faulty eyewitness identification, and these are not cases where people are lying or intentionally changing ... things, but they'll identify someone. They'll say, "That's the person." And as a result of identifying that person in a lineup, that person then replaces what they actually saw. So our memory can be contaminated just like any form of evidence could be contaminated, and then when you replay it again, you're replaying the person you identified, not the person you actually saw.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman31:37

      Wow, so it's almost like we, as we become more familiar with this person that we identified, quote unquote, our knowledge about them, facial features, et cetera, is, is elaborated in our brain, and we superimpose that on the actual experience?

   10. ACDr. Alan Castel31:52

       Yeah. And, and this is, you know, one of the most famous cases, Ronald Cotton case, where really horrible event happened, um, and the woman made a point of trying to remember her attacker, so it wasn't just she got a quick glance, but she had a long interaction with him, and that's, you know, a traumatic event. And she said, "If I survive this, I want to remember his face so I can identify him later." So this is, like, the, the perfect situation where your memory should be sharp, and, um, it was cross-race identification, which we know is not as reliable as identifying someone of your own race. And when she saw a lineup, she identified, she took her time and said, "It-- This feels like it's a multiple choice test, and I studied hard for it." She took her time, and she identified the person, and she thought in her mind, "This is the person who was inches from my throat." Um, and she identified him, and he had a, an alibi that didn't stand up, and he was, you know, then, you know, found guilty. And it was only, you know, decades later that DNA evidence exonerated him, and she felt horrible. Um, she felt like, you know... And there's a lot of reasons why this could happen, you know, whether leading questions or how the identification process was conducted. But she was trying to do what she felt was her job and take someone who she thought was guilty off the street, and, um, later they got to meet, in fact, and she, you know, could apologize to him. She felt terrible. And so this is one case study, and, you know, I'm, I wouldn't draw any conclusions, but it had a lot of the principles that we've talked about where you feel like you're taking a photo. It's a cross-race identification where your confidence might be high for a good reason, um, but accuracy might not be, and then this kind of changing of the face, whereas once you identify the face, that's what you start to remember. And so I think there's a lot of interesting memory principles at play here.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman33:47

       How does the legal system deal with this kind of thing? I mean, nowadays there are so many more cameras and phones which can track location.

   12. ACDr. Alan Castel33:53

       Yeah.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman33:53

       I like to think those things have improved the courtroom scenarios, uh, that it's harder for people to make genuine mistakes.

   14. ACDr. Alan Castel34:02

       Yeah, I think it's, you know, memory should be treated as one source of evidence, just like DNA, just like any sort of evidence. But also we need to be aware that it can be contaminated, just like any other source of evidence as well. So we can't just say, "Oh, well, DNA evidence is perfect." Well, it can also be contaminated in predictable ways. And I think, you know, coming back to this idea of metacognition, most people feel like they have a pretty good understanding of how memory works.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman34:26

       Mm-hmm.

   16. ACDr. Alan Castel34:26

       But it's not always accurate, and sometimes confidence, high confidence doesn't necessarily mean high accuracy. And I think part of the reason we're fooled is usually, you know, the more you see something, the better you'll remember it, just like the Apple logo. But that's not always the case, and there's predictable reasons why the more you see something, the more you might stop attending to the features, or you don't need to use it. And so that is a more kind of predictable memory principle. But we don't have this, you know, always accurate metacognitive insight, and I, I think that's interesting. I think that's both concerning, you know, in the eyewitness memory case, but it's also important for learning. How can we be kind of effective and maximize our learning?

10. 35:07 – 40:28

    Medium-Term & Prospective Memory, Hotel Fire Exits

    1. AHAndrew Huberman35:07

       I have a question about what I want to call medium term memory. I don't even know if that's a real term. Short-term memory, working memory, listeners of this podcast may or may not be familiar, but working memory is like keeping a phone number online in your head or a string of numbers, um, until you need it and then kind of you may or may not remember it long term. Long term memory, obviously long term memory. But there's this thing that I do, um, t- there's, today is a bit of a confessional, so.

    2. ACDr. Alan Castel35:33

       [laughs]

    3. AHAndrew Huberman35:33

       Um, when I check into hotels, um, [laughs] um, I always look at the map of how to get out in a fire because once staying at a hotel in San Francisco for a donor event-

    4. ACDr. Alan Castel35:47

       [laughs]

    5. AHAndrew Huberman35:47

       ... the alarm went off in the middle of the night. Everyone, of course, stuck their head out to look to see if anyone was leaving, and everyone was like, "We're not leaving." And then they called everyone's room. It was an actual fire, which taught me, like, when the alarm goes, go.

    6. ACDr. Alan Castel35:59

       Right.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman35:59

       But... And it was pretty confusing.

    8. ACDr. Alan Castel36:02

       Yeah.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman36:03

       Wide hallways, wasn't clear. Exit sign was not to, like, the actual stairwell. It was a, you know, it was not a good situation, but of course got out fine. But from now on, before I go to sleep, I go and I look at the [laughs] where you are here.

    10. ACDr. Alan Castel36:17

        Mm-hmm.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman36:18

        I look for the exit. I occasionally walk the hall. I don't want to be in this situation again, especially in a high-rise. I just do not want to be in a situation where I can't get out of a building that's on fire. I figure it takes, like, five minutes. People laugh at me when I do this, but I make a mental map. Okay, so let's assume it's smoky. I do the same. Okay, I would... Which is the closer door? I would go right then left, right then left, right then... Okay, so I drill it in my head. Good, now I go to sleep. I never remember the maps. But it's not working memory. It's not short-term memory. I couldn't tell you for the life of me what the last hotel map looked like in my head. It had a you are here red dot. It had doors, it had exits, so it had these component parts. But what term memory is that? And thank goodness I don't remember because it's gonna change every time I'm in a different hotel.

    12. ACDr. Alan Castel37:06

        Yeah.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman37:06

        So what are the mechanisms that allow for selective forgetting that's healthy? And also, is medium-term memory an actual thing?

    14. ACDr. Alan Castel37:15

        Well, I think when you're saying medium-term, that's your everyday basic memory function where you're like, "I need to remember things, but I don't think I need to remember them that long, but I really need to remember them today-

    15. AHAndrew Huberman37:25

        Mm-hmm

    16. ACDr. Alan Castel37:25

        ... or tonight be- and it makes me sleep better at night." And I've had a similar experience. I was, uh, staying in a hotel with my family, and the fire alarm went off, and we're like, "What do we do?" Well, we know we don't take the elevator. That's what you're always told. And, uh, w- I don't think I looked at the map, but you c- I looked down the hall, and I swear when I looked down the hall, I saw smoke. And so I'm like, "Let's not go that way." So we went down the other way. We rushed down the stairs. We got outside, and, and the kids were pretty, you know, traumatic. And actually, one [laughs] of our children was, like, eight stories ahead of us going [laughs] down the stairs. But what's interesting is I thought I saw smoke, and that's... Maybe I didn't have my glasses on, but that's my mind playing tricks on me, so maybe that was my concern. But I think that, you know, this everyday memory is, is really relevant. And, um, when you're studying that map, you're making notes of, like, okay, it's close by, it's down the hall, I d- have to go down here. Um, and that can be very informative and useful for survival. And there's some research saying that that's basically what our brain is tuned towards is surviving. You know-

    17. AHAndrew Huberman38:27

        Mm-hmm

    18. ACDr. Alan Castel38:27

        ... where am I gonna eat? How am I gonna sleep? How am I gonna... Um, so when you say everyday memory, I think that's probably the most important thing, and part of that memory formation is also then forgetting it and updating it. It's as simple as you sh- you need to know your hotel room number when you're staying there, but if I ask you your hotel room number a week later, it's gone. But that's good in a way because you're gonna have other numbers to remember and other hotel room numbers to remember. So there's benefits of forgetting. Um, and you wanna... So I think that's an interesting insight. You're doing some processing to remember something, but then you need to update it and forget it. Um, and, you know, it's the same thing... I think the best thing you can do in that case is, you know, studying the map is one thing, but some people aren't great with maps, and where am I in the hotel, is doing that active learning of actually walking the halls of like, well, I go down here and there's, there's the elevator, so I can't go there. Oh, there are the stairs. I'll remember that. And then you can kind of encode it. So that sort of active learning-

    19. AHAndrew Huberman39:24

        Mm-hmm

    20. ACDr. Alan Castel39:24

        ... is like us with the fire extinguisher. We made people get up and find it instead of telling people where it was. And I'm always, you know, when you're on a flight, they'll always, you know, say, "There's six emergency exits on this plane." And then I think they do the wrong thing. They, they tell you where they are. I think the best thing would be to say, you know, "There's six emergency exits on this plane."

    21. AHAndrew Huberman39:44

        I'm not gonna tell you [laughs] where they are.

    22. ACDr. Alan Castel39:46

        Go... Well, I'm not gonna say not where they are, but go find them. And I notice, maybe it's just myself being a- anxious, is as soon as they say that, I'm looking behind me.

    23. AHAndrew Huberman39:54

        Mm-hmm.

    24. ACDr. Alan Castel39:54

        I'm making sure I know where they all are.

    25. AHAndrew Huberman39:56

        Yeah.

    26. ACDr. Alan Castel39:56

        Whereas most people are like, oh, they pointed here, here, and here.

    27. AHAndrew Huberman39:59

        Yeah.

    28. ACDr. Alan Castel39:59

        And I'll even say sometimes the nearest one is behind you. And I'm like, "Well, I wanna see where it is behind me." And so I think that sort of active learning, whether you call it everyday memory, is, is really important. And I think when we talk about memory, people are like, "I can't remember names." I'm like, "Hmm, that's kind of a common thing."

    29. AHAndrew Huberman40:15

        Mm-hmm.

    30. ACDr. Alan Castel40:15

        But if you... You need to sometimes remember, like, what medication are you taking or how did you react the last time you saw this person and those sorts. I think it's really important to be in tune with what you're calling this kind of everyday average memory.

11. 40:28 – 41:47

    Sponsor: AG1

    1. AHAndrew Huberman40:28

       I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1. AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also includes prebiotics and adaptogens. I discovered AG1 way back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast, and I've been taking it every day since. The reason I started taking AG1 and the reason I still take it every day is because AG1 is, to my knowledge, the highest quality and most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on the market. AG1 is designed to support things like gut health, immune health, and overall energy, and it does so by helping to fill any gaps that you might have in your daily nutrition. I get asked pretty much all the time, "If I could only take one supplement, what should that supplement be?" And my answer is always AG1. It has just been so helpful for supporting all aspects of physical health, mental health, and performance. If you would like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a special offer. For a limited time, AG1 is giving away a free bottle of their new Omega-3 Coenzyme Q10 product. Omega-3 and Coenzyme Q10 are known to support cardiovascular health, cellular health and energy generally, brain health, and much more. I personally take them both every day. Again, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a free bottle of the new Omega-3 Coenzyme Q10 with your first AG1 subscription.

12. 41:47 – 49:01

    When Habits Turn Lethal, Aviation & Human Error

    1. AHAndrew Huberman41:47

       Thank you for that, and I'm gonna use that as weaponry, uh, when I get teased for, uh, walking the, the fire exits. But it was because the... in part because the first time e- people were asking, "Hey, do you know if we should leave? Do you know, do you know which way to go?" And I realized, okay, next time it might as well be me. I'm-

    2. ACDr. Alan Castel42:03

       Yeah

    3. AHAndrew Huberman42:04

       ... I'll be the guy that knows which way to go.

    4. ACDr. Alan Castel42:05

       Mm-hmm.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman42:06

       Certainly for myself, and then I can tell other people which way to go. Nobody else here knows where to go, and most likely they're not gonna know the next time.

    6. ACDr. Alan Castel42:12

       Mm-hmm.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman42:12

       I do the thing on the plane, too. I think, okay, I should read the thing of how to-

    8. ACDr. Alan Castel42:16

       Yeah

    9. AHAndrew Huberman42:16

       ... take it out because I figure, well, I've experienced how under conditions of very high arousal you just default to what almost feel like whatever was trained, whatever reflexes you have.

    10. ACDr. Alan Castel42:28

        Yeah.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman42:28

        I mean, I had a scuba diving accident years ago and-

    12. ACDr. Alan Castel42:30

        Mm-hmm

    13. AHAndrew Huberman42:31

        ... I don't like to say, you know, came close to the end, but it was an air failure and it was a whole mess, and you just default to, yeah, we had to do the whole share air thing. It was a precarious situation to begin with and, uh, and you just default to these routines. Actually, recently I watched what I think is a spectacular documentary about Dean Potter, who was a, he was a, uh, free solo climber, a predecessor to, um, to Alex Honnold.

    14. ACDr. Alan Castel42:54

        Hmm.

    15. AHAndrew Huberman42:55

        Um, he was kind of the guy to beat, and Honnold passed him up pretty early. But, and he got into wingsuiting and BASE jumping and the whole thing and there was this, um, there's a scene where, um... So be warned if you watch this amazing-

    16. ACDr. Alan Castel43:08

        [laughs]

    17. AHAndrew Huberman43:08

        ... four-part series. There's a scene where, uh, people who are doing BASE jumping in Yosemite are advocating for- It being legal in Yosemite, it's illegal. And so there were a bunch of spectators there, and they were doing this big demonstration jump. And a woman who was a very, very, um, seasoned base jumper, she didn't want to use her own gear because they were ta- confiscating people's gear at the bottom.

    18. ACDr. Alan Castel43:31

        Mm.

    19. AHAndrew Huberman43:31

        So she borrowed someone else's gear. And she jumps, and she's used to pulling from a leg, a leg pull, I guess it is, and you just see her the whole way down.

    20. ACDr. Alan Castel43:39

        Mm-hmm.

    21. AHAndrew Huberman43:39

        The whole way down. And she's got, you know, she's got a parachute on.

    22. ACDr. Alan Castel43:43

        Yeah.

    23. AHAndrew Huberman43:43

        And just, you know, um, not to give it away, but I guess, you know, um, gave it away, that, uh, she dies. But the whole way down, you can see her just doing this routine movement.

    24. ACDr. Alan Castel43:54

        Yeah.

    25. AHAndrew Huberman43:55

        And she put on a different pack. She knew that it was a different pull location.

    26. ACDr. Alan Castel44:00

        Mm-hmm.

    27. AHAndrew Huberman44:00

        So under conditions of very high arousal-

    28. ACDr. Alan Castel44:02

        Yeah

    29. AHAndrew Huberman44:02

        ... even highly, highly trained people, um, in for th- that condition, they just default-

    30. ACDr. Alan Castel44:07

        Yeah
13. 49:01 – 52:34

    Why Memory Changes With Age; Alzheimer's & the Nun Study

    1. AHAndrew Huberman49:01

       as they get older?

    2. ACDr. Alan Castel49:01

       Well, I, I think there's a lot of reasons and, you know, a lot of memories do change with age and some forms of memory, like source memory, uh, tends to decline with age.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman49:10

       Yeah.

    4. ACDr. Alan Castel49:10

       You can't remember where you saw the headline or who-

    5. AHAndrew Huberman49:12

       Mm

    6. ACDr. Alan Castel49:12

       ... you told the joke to. Um, and sometimes I'll even say, you know, "Have I told you this before?" But sometimes it's just such a good joke or such a good memory, I'm like, "I don't really care, 'cause I'm gonna tell it to you again because I'm enjoying this."

    7. AHAndrew Huberman49:24

       Right.

    8. ACDr. Alan Castel49:24

       And my kids will be like, "Yeah, we've heard that so many times." I'm like, "Yeah, but it's so good." So it's probably a little bit of both, but I think there's also some nostalgia. Like, we do share family histories this way.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman49:35

       Mm-hmm.

    10. ACDr. Alan Castel49:35

        And I think, you know, when families get together for Thanksgiving, there's this rehashing of, "Do you remember when this happened?" It's like, "Yep, we tell that story every time." Um, a lot of our histories used to be oral histories, where, you know, we're telling stories and reminding people, and it's how we determine what foods were safe. But yeah, I can see it's certainly frustrating, and I think we think, "Gosh, I'm talking to this older person. They're telling me the same thing again," and you're nodding. But I, I take a certain amount of enjoyment from it. There's a nostalgia. Um, there's also a feeling of familiarity.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman50:04

        Mm-hmm.

    12. ACDr. Alan Castel50:05

        And so probably it's a, it's a collection of things. But you do see more pathological aging that people will completely forget. Um, you know, they'll say the same things. They'll ask, "What's for dinner?" again five minutes later, "What's for dinner?" again, "What's for dinner?" again, and that's where it's probably more concerning. Um, but it, it is an interesting thing to note that as we, you know, get older, we might engage in that sort of behavior.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman50:27

        What is the consensus now on Alzheimer's and memory loss generally? Meaning, is it inevitable that people lose some amount of memory, and, um, conditions like Alzheimer's are just a more rapid downward trajectory? And we could talk about SuperAgers, these people that seem to maintain cognition w- well better than their, their peers anyway. Are there people who just, you know, are sharp till the day they take their last breath, and that last breath comes in their 90s or even past 100?

    14. ACDr. Alan Castel50:55

        Yeah, I think just the, the, the diversity that accompanies aging is really interesting. You could look at a 100-year-old who's doing really well and a 60-year-old who's not doing so well. So we can't just use kind of biological age as, as the marker. Um, and as a psychologist, of course, I'm interested in psychological aspects. Um, and there's, you know, an old study on nuns who, you know, it's interesting to see how you can test different people, but nuns are very committed to their, [chuckles] their profession. Um, and you found that these nuns, how they age, some of them certainly when they passed away, their brains had these kind of hallmark signs of dementia, plaques, and tangles. But behaviorally, they were still high functioning. So it's really interesting that the hardware shows what we see as dementia and specifically Alzheimer's disease, but their behavior, uh, was that of a fairly healthy cognitive person. So something else has to be going on, and, you know, it could be some people say it's having a sense of purpose. It could be having s- social connections. We know that's incredibly important. I think we do have a certain amount of control over it, and some of it might be based on physical exercise and sleep. So I know things you've talked about before.

    15. AHAndrew Huberman52:04

        Yeah.

    16. ACDr. Alan Castel52:04

        And some of it is having kind of a positive attitude about aging, that if you feel like you... You know, some people say, "Well, it's all genetic, so what do I have to do?" Well, if you go on a walk, some really good research shows that, you know, walking three to four times a week, um, can enhance hippocampal function, the part of the brain that's very involved in declarative memory. Um, and that part of the brain, you know, having turned 50 recently, tends to decline by about one to 2% a year in terms of volume. So this is kind of physical shrinkage of the brain.

14. 52:34 – 57:14

    Exercise & Hippocampal Volume, Falls & Balance

    1. AHAndrew Huberman52:34

       Mm-hmm.

    2. ACDr. Alan Castel52:34

       But in the walking group, the group that was randomly assigned to walk three, four times a week for 40 minutes, compared to a stretching group, who's still engaging in exercise but not cardiovascular exercise, the walking group, their, you know, hippocampus actually increased in volume by 1%. So you're changing the, the brain, but you're also changing the behavior. Their memory was much better a year later. So I think, you know, if you saw a doctor and said, "You know, I'm having some memory problems. What can I do?" Most people are looking for a pill or, you know, sometimes it's eat this or do that. But I think physical exercise can be so important. Uh, and it probably... The mechanism we don't know exactly, but it probably trickles down to things like improvements in sleep as well.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman53:16

       Mm-hmm.

    4. ACDr. Alan Castel53:16

       You know, if you're getting exercise maybe earlier in the day, you're gonna have better mood. You're gonna sleep better. We know a lot of memory formation happens when you're sleeping. Uh, we know as we get older, our sleep quality tends to decline, even our, if our quantity tends to increase. So I think just knowing that there are some things we can do, and I'm using physical exercise as the example, and it doesn't have to be, you know, the extreme version. Um, walking, dancing, um, a lot of people, you know, enjoy being outside. Uh, that can be incredibly important to offset some of the things we do know can, can lead to dementia.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman53:52

       Was the walking vigorous?

    6. ACDr. Alan Castel53:54

       You know, in, in this group, I think it's really 30 to 40 minutes, and there's nothing special certainly about walking, but it's something where you can randomly assign people to either walk or engage in stretching.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman54:04

       Mm-hmm.

    8. ACDr. Alan Castel54:05

       So if you're biking, if you're swimming, if you're dancing, any of these things can be beneficial. But here it's, you know, you can randomly assign people to walk and, and it should be at a rate where you're... You know, there's research showing that the people who walk slightly faster actually live longer. Um, so we're, you know, you're not sure exactly.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman54:21

       So reverse causality there?

    10. ACDr. Alan Castel54:22

        Could certainly be that. And a, and a lot of this research, it's tough to do aging research 'cause it's hard to randomly assign people to, to certain conditions.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman54:30

        Right.

    12. ACDr. Alan Castel54:30

        But I think as a psychologist, knowing that you have a little bit of control over the process is important. And I think, you know, most people when they talk about aging, they're so worried about dementia and, you know, Alzheimer's disease as a specific form. But balance is even more important, I think, and most people aren't even aware of their balance.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman54:49

        Mm-hmm.

    14. ACDr. Alan Castel54:49

        So one in four people over the age of 65 will experience a fall, and that fall can be very detrimental. You can break your hip, your collarbone. Often, you know, you're getting up at night more frequently. You trip over a carpet or a rug. And, you know, if you're in bed, if recovering from these falls, you're not walking. You know, your hippocampus is shrinking. [chuckles] If you ask people, "How's, how's your balance?" Most people are like, "Well, it's fine. I, I don't, haven't had a fall." But there's a very simple test, we could do it now if you wanted, where you just stand up and see if you can balance on one leg for at least 10 seconds. And I have, you know, when I do presentations, I do this ideally 30, 40 minutes into the presentation. We shouldn't be sitting for so long. And most people do pretty well. It's a younger group, and sometimes it's older adults I'm speaking to. And you can tell, you know, I'm like, "Make sure you have something you can hold onto," and you can tell that balance changes considerably with age.

    15. AHAndrew Huberman55:42

        Hmm.

    16. ACDr. Alan Castel55:43

        And then I say, "Okay, now try doing it with your eyes closed."

    17. AHAndrew Huberman55:45

        Hmm.

    18. ACDr. Alan Castel55:46

        And I actually usually don't do this with my older adult group because then you see the younger people start to tip and, you know, it's very... We get a lot of cues from our visual environment for balance.

    19. AHAndrew Huberman55:55

        The young- the older people tip?

    20. ACDr. Alan Castel55:57

        Everyone.

    21. AHAndrew Huberman55:57

        Yeah.

    22. ACDr. Alan Castel55:57

        You'll see the younger people-

    23. AHAndrew Huberman55:58

        Oh, I see

    24. ACDr. Alan Castel55:59

        ... start to tip.

    25. AHAndrew Huberman55:59

        Okay.

    26. ACDr. Alan Castel55:59

        That's why it's even more surprising.

    27. AHAndrew Huberman56:01

        It's like a field sobriety test.

    28. ACDr. Alan Castel56:02

        It, it very much is.

    29. AHAndrew Huberman56:03

        Yeah.

    30. ACDr. Alan Castel56:04

        But it's, it's again, from this metacognitive standpoint where you think your balance is fine because you haven't had a fall, but you could be close to falling at any given point. And so, you know, the cerebellum, the p- almost very primitive part of the brain, is involved in a lot of this. What's interesting with balance is it's very trainable. And so, you know, there's parts of balance that involve visual, inner ear. But if you engage in some training, and it can be as simple as standing on one leg or doing yoga or tai chi, you can improve your balance considerably within a month or two. And so I think when I talk to older adults who, you know, sometimes are even middle-aged, worried about their memory, I think balance is often overlooked, and it, it's something that's trainable.
15. 57:14 – 1:12:08

    SuperAgers & Athletes; Regret, Balance & Being Driven

    1. ACDr. Alan Castel57:14

       Yeah

    2. AHAndrew Huberman57:14

       ... the water, the cold, the, you know. I mean, there are a bunch of things. Um, obviously, it's not just the skiing or the surfing, but there are certain sports where you look at the people and you say, "Okay, they're not the biggest and strongest, nor are they the ones with the most endurance," but on balance-

    3. ACDr. Alan Castel57:31

       Yeah

    4. AHAndrew Huberman57:31

       ... they seem strong. Their posture looks good.

    5. ACDr. Alan Castel57:34

       Yeah.

    6. AHAndrew Huberman57:35

       Um, they seem relatively happy. Who knows?

    7. ACDr. Alan Castel57:40

       Sure. [laughs]

    8. AHAndrew Huberman57:40

       Right? I'm intrigued by the fact that I look at a lot of these videos of, of, of SuperAgers and athletes in their 70s, 80s, 90s who are doing remarkably well. It's very rare to see a video of athletes or non-athletes past 80 where they're breathing through their nose with their mouth shut. Almost always, you see [panting] . Now, I'm not saying it's causal.

    9. ACDr. Alan Castel58:04

       Mm-hmm.

    10. AHAndrew Huberman58:05

        But there does seem to be a shift in the way that people breathe as they get older. Just look at some of the, um... I forget his name now. He's a, a television, um, personality, uh, who's been around a long... He's in his hundreds, and he's been on YouTube and the, and news programs recently. But at rest, it's like a mouth-open [sighs] breathing pattern. You kinda wonder whether or not they're getting enough oxygen to their brain.

    11. ACDr. Alan Castel58:27

        Yeah.

    12. AHAndrew Huberman58:27

        And I, I do think that the shift in how we breathe, spontaneous movement, these things all go together.

    13. ACDr. Alan Castel58:32

        Mm-hmm.

    14. AHAndrew Huberman58:33

        Um, and I do think each component part needs to be looked at individually. So okay, so it's the movement, it's the exercise, the novelty, the social connection, but ultimately, there's a lot of other things going on. Like, we know older people just don't, they don't move spontaneously very much. We had Twyla Tharp in here, the-

    15. ACDr. Alan Castel58:50

        Mm-hmm

    16. AHAndrew Huberman58:50

        ... you know, world-famous choreographer, and she's in her, somewhere in her 80s. You know, she can deadlift her, um, twice her body weight.

    17. ACDr. Alan Castel58:58

        Wow.

    18. AHAndrew Huberman58:58

        Works out at 5:00 AM every morning for two hours.

    19. ACDr. Alan Castel59:00

        Wow.

    20. AHAndrew Huberman59:01

        She boxed for a while.

    21. ACDr. Alan Castel59:02

        Yeah.

    22. AHAndrew Huberman59:03

        Um, but actual boxing 'cause she's Twyla.

    23. ACDr. Alan Castel59:06

        Right. [laughs]

    24. AHAndrew Huberman59:06

        She's a, she's a really, uh, she's got a lot of spirit. But she doesn't sit like I'm sitting, like kind of lazing back. She's-

    25. ACDr. Alan Castel59:13

        Mm-hmm

    26. AHAndrew Huberman59:13

        ... she's fully active, and she's in her-

    27. ACDr. Alan Castel59:15

        Right

    28. AHAndrew Huberman59:15

        ... she's moving, and she's nasal breathing when, unless she's speaking. Like, she's-

    29. ACDr. Alan Castel59:19

        Yeah

    30. AHAndrew Huberman59:20

        ... she's, her nervous system is turned on. I notice that and I go, "God willing, I'll be, I'll be like that." But I notice with each passing year, I take a few more opportunities to lean against things as opposed to standing up, not leaning against them or starting to resemble the bulldogs I've owned. There's an opportunity to lie down, they lie down. If there's an opportunity to, you know, sleep, they... And I don't know that that's good. Maybe we need to nudge ourselves to be a little more active than we're comfortable.
16. 1:12:08 – 1:13:45

    Sponsor: Function

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:12:08

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17. 1:13:45 – 1:20:02

    Age Stereotypes, Subjective Age & Positive Age Beliefs

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:13:47

       Yeah, the notion of having to prove to oneself or even to others that one can do something, that's a, kind of a hallmark of being younger. Yeah, I suppose some people escape that, but I think most people struggle with that social comparison thing.

    2. ACDr. Alan Castel1:14:02

       Mm-hmm.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:14:04

       It can be very useful as a, as a lever.

    4. ACDr. Alan Castel1:14:07

       Mm-hmm.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:14:08

       Um, can generate a lot of hard work, great work through competition, um, even competitions in one's own head. But, you know, eventually realize, like, you're the only one in this fight.

    6. ACDr. Alan Castel1:14:22

       Right.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:14:22

       You know? And, uh, I don't know. I, I... This podcast has a very, um, broad, uh, audience in terms of age ranges, and so I- it's, it's interesting, the, the younger crowd, let's just say 35 and younger, tend to have questions about how to pick direction, what, what direction to go.

    8. ACDr. Alan Castel1:14:41

       Mm.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:14:41

       And, um, the older crowd, um, generally is asking about things related to keeping their memory, their health, and these days asking a lot of questions about whether they should revise their notions of what age appropriate physical ability or mental ability should be. I think that's a big shift-

    10. ACDr. Alan Castel1:14:59

        Mm-hmm

    11. AHAndrew Huberman1:14:59

        ... out there right now, because, um, you know, 20 years ago, it was assumed, you know, people would hit 70 or 80 and start to slow down, and, you know, now it, people are like, "Well, if I feel great at 50, maybe I could feel great at 60. If I could feel great at 60, maybe I could feel great at 90." You know?

    12. ACDr. Alan Castel1:15:13

        Yeah.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman1:15:13

        The possibility feels real. And I'm not talking about living longer. I actually don't consider myself a longevity person.

    14. ACDr. Alan Castel1:15:20

        Mm-hmm.

    15. AHAndrew Huberman1:15:20

        Sometimes I'll get lumped there.

    16. ACDr. Alan Castel1:15:21

        Mm-hmm.

    17. AHAndrew Huberman1:15:21

        It's like I've never actually focused on that. I, yes, I think it's great to live as long as you can at a, a vibrant life. But what do you think about the messaging that we could go longer or could make more of our time? Do you think it's net positive, or do you think that's creating a pressure for people to not live into the, their, the reality that, hey, they're like 70 and maybe slowing down and maybe telling those stories two or three times?

    18. ACDr. Alan Castel1:15:48

        Mm-hmm.

    19. AHAndrew Huberman1:15:48

        That maybe, maybe they're supposed to shed wisdom and, and not supposed to be, uh, jogging around the block.

    20. ACDr. Alan Castel1:15:53

        Yeah. It's so interesting to see these age, age-related differences, but also to see how that's shifting. And we're certainly living longer, or, you know, for the most part if you look at our history, and there's a variety of reasons for that. But you wanna make sure those years that we're adding are healthy ones, um, because the longer you live, the greater the chance of developing dementia. Um, I think from a psychological s- perspective, it's interesting because, uh, you know, if you ask someone, "How old do you feel?" That's very different than your biological age.

    21. AHAndrew Huberman1:16:21

        Mm.

    22. ACDr. Alan Castel1:16:21

        Like, let's say you didn't have access to your birth cer- your parents actually said, "Sorry, [laughs] we can't actually remember how old you are."

    23. AHAndrew Huberman1:16:27

        Mm-hmm.

    24. ACDr. Alan Castel1:16:27

        How would you figure that out? And-

    25. AHAndrew Huberman1:16:28

        We're actually not your parents.

    26. ACDr. Alan Castel1:16:29

        Yeah, [laughs] surprise.

    27. AHAndrew Huberman1:16:31

        No, I'm kidding. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm sure they're my parents. Um, yeah. That's an interesting question.

    28. ACDr. Alan Castel1:16:35

        And this is known as subjective age.

    29. AHAndrew Huberman1:16:37

        Mm.

    30. ACDr. Alan Castel1:16:37

        And you know, there's a physical feeling. There's als- also this mental feeling. So how do we assign that? And actually after the age of 40, most people feel about 20% younger than their actual age.
18. 1:20:02 – 1:26:23

    Goals & Plans, Scams; Anterior Midcingulate Cortex & SuperAgers

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:20:02

       I find that academics tend to operate on the three to five-year plan.

    2. ACDr. Alan Castel1:20:05

       Mm-hmm.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:20:05

       Because grants generally are somewhere between three and five years. That's pretty much all we can- reasonably predict about where we're gonna go with our ideas. We update as we discover things and, um, and so on. But d- do you ever recall having a plan? Currently, do you plan, like, where you're going? This is just really about you-

    4. ACDr. Alan Castel1:20:24

       Yeah

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:20:25

       ... but as a-

    6. ACDr. Alan Castel1:20:26

       Yeah

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:20:26

       ... as a template for people to ask themselves the same question. I don't think I was ever sat down and said, "Listen, you wanna focus on day to day, but you gotta have a plan, and the plan should be put the horizon at three years-

    8. ACDr. Alan Castel1:20:38

       Mm-hmm

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:20:38

       ... or five years." I just, I sort of defaulted to that because of academics. [laughs]

    10. ACDr. Alan Castel1:20:42

        Yeah.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman1:20:42

        Um, and, uh-

    12. ACDr. Alan Castel1:20:43

        Yeah

    13. AHAndrew Huberman1:20:43

        ... it's very hard for me to think past five years.

    14. ACDr. Alan Castel1:20:45

        No, I think people often will say in business, too, the plan you have, and I think plans are important because they can motivate you. And, you know, when I first got this job at UCLA, I was thrilled to leave the cold weather of Toronto and live on the West Coast. But I also said, "You know, if it doesn't work out, let's see in three to five years." So I don't think I had the specific plan of I have to do this, but I also had a plan like, "Hey, I'd love to write a book that is accessible and can kind of capture the, the lessons I've learned." And I didn't put a timeline on that, but when I first met my wife, I told her I was really interested in doing this, and she was very encouraging. And, you know, 10 years later, that book finally comes out. So I think when you articulate plans, there's definitely research saying that you can realize them. And when other people are thinking that's something you can or should do, I think it's, it's beneficial. But yeah, in the academic world there, there can be pressures to get grants and publish, but I think that can also hamper some creative outputs. I don't have a plan of like, in three to five years I need to do this and this, and it sure it'd be nice to get another grant, but maybe if you don't have a grant, you can have a little more freedom and flexibility. Um, I'm really interested in how, you know, it's a concern now with AI, how people are subjected to a lot of information, and a lot of this can be used for scams and fraud.

    15. AHAndrew Huberman1:22:00

        Hmm.

    16. ACDr. Alan Castel1:22:00

        And so I'm interested in how older adults can be kind of, you know, aware of these scams that can take, you know, can be devastating in how we can make kind of the world better for older adults. And when I say older, it's like, you know, we're not that far away from, you know, why, why can that self-driving car be so appealing to a younger person but not an older person? And if we can make, you know, technology more accessible to older people, it can certainly help. And I think there's simple ways to do it. Some, it starts with attitudes that, you know, how do I engage with this? Will it work? Will I break it? Whereas younger people will just... They get a new iPhone, and they don't, there's no instruction manual. They're just playing around with it. Um, so I'm interested in that. I don't think that has, like, a publication-

    17. AHAndrew Huberman1:22:44

        [laughs]

    18. ACDr. Alan Castel1:22:44

        ... that I'm gonna get out of it. And maybe there's a grant, maybe there's consulting, but I think it's having a broader kind of approach might, might be beneficial. So these are more abstract goals-

    19. AHAndrew Huberman1:22:55

        Mm-hmm

    20. ACDr. Alan Castel1:22:55

        ... and hopefully some of them can be realized, but it's not as tied to, like... You know, when I was younger, yeah, I wanted to get tenure at UCLA, right? I was happy to have children and have a house where we could be, you know, centrally located without a long commute. So I think those were the practical goals. But I think as I get older, I, I feel fortunate that I've achieved, you know, some of these goals that make my life more comfortable, but there's still things out there that I'm like, "Are we really ever gonna know how memory works?" [laughs] Um, maybe, maybe not, but maybe we can make things easier to use, or now that we know memory sort of works this way, maybe we can make this technology geared to help us in some meaningful way.

    21. AHAndrew Huberman1:23:32

        Well, a comment and then a question. Uh, my comment is if anyone needs self-driving cars, it's older folks.

    22. ACDr. Alan Castel1:23:38

        Right. [laughs]

    23. AHAndrew Huberman1:23:39

        Right? I mean, if you look at the accident data, um-

    24. ACDr. Alan Castel1:23:43

        Well-

    25. AHAndrew Huberman1:23:43

        ... look at the visual data.

    26. ACDr. Alan Castel1:23:45

        Yeah.

    27. AHAndrew Huberman1:23:45

        I mean, there are people who are, I don't wanna say legally blind, but their peripheral vision is really lousy, and they're driving, and most of driving is peripheral vision.

    28. ACDr. Alan Castel1:23:54

        Yeah.

    29. AHAndrew Huberman1:23:54

        Um, so, you know, for everybody's sake. But of course, very young people with new licenses, they're all, [laughs] you know, it's a, it's a, it's not a, a, you know, a, a linear distribution of, of accidents by age. It's, uh, it's a U-shaped function. But, uh, the, the other is, um, nested in my question about whether you set goals is the question of whether setting goals helps us stay alive. You know, I, I covered before some of the data on these SuperAgers, m- more of the neurosciences. Anterior midcingulate cortex, which seems to maintain or increase volume as SuperAgers-

    30. ACDr. Alan Castel1:24:33

        Right
19. 1:26:23 – 1:29:18

    Culture, Resilience, Blue Zones & COVID

    1. ACDr. Alan Castel1:26:23

       of purpose.

    2. AHAndrew Huberman1:26:23

       Mm-hmm.

    3. ACDr. Alan Castel1:26:23

       If you look at all those different levels.

    4. AHAndrew Huberman1:26:25

       Mm-hmm.

    5. ACDr. Alan Castel1:26:25

       And then what we look at in a Western culture, too, is very different than some cultures that age much better than Western cultures, and maybe there's lessons to be learned there. Because, you know, a lot of it is like you're saying, goal setting and motivation, but the goal is not just to live forever, it's to make the most of these moments and have this sense of purpose. And a lot of older adults do wanna have this connection to younger people or connection to a hobby or an interest, and it's not as professionally driven as it is in kind of midlife. And I think the SuperAgers is really interesting because, you know, I've, I've read about that and I've seen this and I... These are not people who said, "I wanna live forever and I'm going to," you know? That, that's not their goal. And a lot of them are not people who are like, "I went to the gym four times a week." They, they built into their... You know, and it's the same with Blue Zones. It's built into their daily life of they eat well because that's the food that, you know, they enjoy and that they can find. They exercise, not from going to the gym, but from having to walk uphill or on uneven surfaces. So I think, I don't wanna say it's an American focus on goals and motivation and biohacking and longevity, but if you can build this into your daily life, it's so much easier, right? And then just becomes... You know, I saw my father bike to work every day. In fact, he wouldn't even call it work because he didn't want to make it think like it was work. And I, I don't know why, I s- I bike to work, too, in Los Angeles, which is probably [laughs] not the best thing to do, but I've been able to set up my life that I bike two miles uphill to work and then two miles downhill. It's probably ... Sometimes it's the best time of my day, sometimes it's when the best ideas come to me. I also have to be vigilant, you know? [laughs]

    6. AHAndrew Huberman1:28:00

       Yeah.

    7. ACDr. Alan Castel1:28:01

       Um.

    8. AHAndrew Huberman1:28:01

       I just think the only thing, uh, you know, I, I-

    9. ACDr. Alan Castel1:28:02

       I do wear a helmet

    10. AHAndrew Huberman1:28:03

        ... I only met you today-

    11. ACDr. Alan Castel1:28:04

        [laughs]

    12. AHAndrew Huberman1:28:04

        ... but I, I feel like, uh, uh, something's coming out where I'm thinking, just, I just, having lived in LA a wh- a while, it's just doors-

    13. ACDr. Alan Castel1:28:12

        Sure

    14. AHAndrew Huberman1:28:12

        ... cars opening.

    15. ACDr. Alan Castel1:28:12

        Yeah.

    16. AHAndrew Huberman1:28:12

        That's just the, the simple-

    17. ACDr. Alan Castel1:28:13

        You know, other cities too.

    18. AHAndrew Huberman1:28:14

        Yeah.

    19. ACDr. Alan Castel1:28:14

        I, in Toronto it's even worse, you know? Um, but I think with the SuperAgers, it's also resilience.

    20. AHAndrew Huberman1:28:19

        Mm.

    21. ACDr. Alan Castel1:28:19

        And these are people, when you look at their lives, sometimes, you know, they've had, you know, easier lives, and that can be beneficial in some ways, you know, having wealth and health, but often there's a lot of resilience. You know, you've bounced back. You saw this during COVID. We at first thought, oh, COVID is gonna be terrible for older people, right? Because they're gonna be socially isolated, they don't know how to use technology, and there's certainly reasons why older adults could be more vulnerable. But what we found, at least at the psychological level, we did some of this research, older adults were much more resilient than [laughs] younger adults.

    22. AHAndrew Huberman1:28:51

        Mm.

    23. ACDr. Alan Castel1:28:52

        And I think we've learned. Younger adults went through a lot of difficult times being socially isolated, being through probably their first major kind of situation where they can't behave the way they're normally doing it, and the older adults were the ones who were like, "Eh, I've lived through X, Y, and Z, wars, financial meltdowns, you know, changes in family structure, deaths of close people," and older adults has- seem to show a lot more resilience

20. 1:29:18 – 1:36:31

    Adversity, the Positivity Effect & Intergenerational Learning

    1. ACDr. Alan Castel1:29:18

       here.

    2. AHAndrew Huberman1:29:18

       Mm.

    3. ACDr. Alan Castel1:29:18

       And, um, you know, when I've interviewed people for, for this book, it's sometimes the most interesting people, you know, lived through the Holocaust, who are like, "I appreciate every day." You know, I, I think the best advice I got from one person was, like, "When you're going up or down stairs, think I'm going up or down stairs."

    4. AHAndrew Huberman1:29:36

       [laughs]

    5. ACDr. Alan Castel1:29:36

       They're very present, right?

    6. AHAndrew Huberman1:29:37

       Mm-hmm.

    7. ACDr. Alan Castel1:29:37

       They know if I'm mind wandering or doing something else, something can happen. So maybe I shouldn't be mind wandering on my bike ride. I should be like, "That's my, [laughs] that's my-"

    8. AHAndrew Huberman1:29:46

       Well, yeah, but you're considerably younger and clearly very m- mentally, uh, aware to be able to, to use that time. I have a friend, he was actually a guest on this podcast. His name is Ryan Suave. He's a, a trauma therapist.

    9. ACDr. Alan Castel1:29:59

       Mm.

    10. AHAndrew Huberman1:29:59

        He also treats addiction in a number of people. And he said occasionally he'll get a, uh, a patient who, uh, was suicidal or tried to attempt-

    11. ACDr. Alan Castel1:30:09

        Mm-hmm

    12. AHAndrew Huberman1:30:09

        ... suicide, um, or, you know, or who attempted suicide, excuse me, uh, because of a breakup, like in high school or in, uh, in their 20s. And, you know, he said at first when, when he would get these people coming through his clinic, he would think like, "Listen, you wanna sit this person down and just say, 'Look, like, you're, you got your whole life ahead of you. You're gonna have other opportunities. There are other fish in the sea.'" But he quickly came to realize that to these, what, you know, by all arguments are, are still kinda like kids, you know, young adults, um, to them it, it feels like a loss of the entire future-

    13. ACDr. Alan Castel1:30:43

        Mm-hmm

    14. AHAndrew Huberman1:30:43

        ... because they haven't had that future yet.

    15. ACDr. Alan Castel1:30:45

        Right.

    16. AHAndrew Huberman1:30:45

        And when he started approaching it through that lens, he was able to be more effective clinically.

    17. ACDr. Alan Castel1:30:49

        Mm-hmm.

    18. AHAndrew Huberman1:30:50

        To just really acknowledge, like, yeah, it really feels like the whole world is coming to an end. They just don't have the perspective of having-

    19. ACDr. Alan Castel1:30:57

        Yeah

    20. AHAndrew Huberman1:30:57

        ... had some relationship challenges and-

    21. ACDr. Alan Castel1:30:59

        Yeah

    22. AHAndrew Huberman1:30:59

        ... found someone else, and so it really feels like their whole life is over.

    23. ACDr. Alan Castel1:31:03

        Yeah.

    24. AHAndrew Huberman1:31:03

        Uh, because their whole life is up to that point. It's interesting to thi-

    25. ACDr. Alan Castel1:31:07

        Yeah

    26. AHAndrew Huberman1:31:07

        ... you know, and I remember thinking like, "Oh, yeah, that makes total sense when you say it." I mean, obviously not the suicidality. Like, you know, one hopes that wouldn't be where people would go with a breakup. But as we get older, yeah, we, we can integrate over, you know, oh, I've been, had my ups, I've had my downs, you know, I'm still here, I'm hard to kill, you know, as I-

    27. ACDr. Alan Castel1:31:25

        Yeah

    28. AHAndrew Huberman1:31:25

        ... sometimes tell myself. I go, "I've had some ups and downs," and-

    29. ACDr. Alan Castel1:31:27

        Sure

    30. AHAndrew Huberman1:31:28

        ... if I'm taking s- you know, some heat, I just go, "Okay, well, I know one thing is I'm, I'm hard to kill."
21. 1:36:31 – 1:38:00

    Sponsor: Lingo

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:36:31

       I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Lingo. Lingo is an everyday wearable that tracks your glucose 24/7. Glucose drives a lot of key processes that support energy, body composition, and long-term health. When glucose is constantly spiking and crashing, that's where we can start to see metabolic dysfunction, and over time, that can even progress to prediabetes. Right now, about 115 million adults in the US have prediabetes. Most don't know it, and a higher percentage of men have it than women do. Often, there aren't clear symptoms of prediabetes early on, so people don't tend to look into it. But the fact is that metabolic health is shaping how your body functions every day, whether you feel it or not. Tracking your glucose with Lingo can help you see how food, activity, and stress impact your glucose throughout the day. I personally have used Lingo, and it's been an invaluable tool for improving my metabolic health. If you would like to try Lingo, Huberman Lab listeners in the US and UK can save 10% on a four-week plan. Just visit hellolingo.com/huberman for more information. Terms and conditions apply. Again, that's hellolingo.com/huberman. There's a really cool course at Stanford Medical School that I sat in on years ago about neural regeneration, which was a topic of study for my lab for a while, and they had a young person, uh, that year it was, uh, a guy in his 20s who had a spinal cord injury. He came in, talked about his spinal cord injury, talked about

22. 1:38:00 – 1:44:58

    Limitations & Purpose; Time, Family & Connection

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:38:00

       what life was like for him before and after, w- how he's thinking about things. And then at a, on a separate lecture, there was a older individual who'd also had a spinal cord injury, and it was striking to see the divergence in attitude You could look at this as tragic or redeeming, depending on how you, how you think about these things. But, um, the older gentleman was saying that, you know, he had this injury. He knows he's never gonna walk again, but he's like, you know, he's lived a lot of life, and he's done a lot of things, and you know, and here he is, and so he's gonna focus on what he can do.

    2. ACDr. Alan Castel1:38:35

       Mm-hmm.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:38:36

       He's gonna focus on what he can do. And he actually noted, [laughs] this was some years ago, that he wasn't that much worse off compared to his peers unless he let himself become a pessimist.

    4. ACDr. Alan Castel1:38:46

       Mm-hmm.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:38:47

       So if he was an optimist, then he actually was still doing better than a lot of his, um, walking, able peers. Whereas the younger gentleman was talking about how, you know, there's just so many things in the, i- in the horizon that he's gonna... That he hasn't done that he really wanted to do that he doesn't have access to.

    6. ACDr. Alan Castel1:39:04

       Mm-hmm.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:39:04

       Which is really heartbreaking to hear. But it was a very honest discussion, and this was, of course, mainly focused on the biology and limitations of biology to try and overcome regeneration. But they brought these, um, people in because really wanted to highlight the differences in terms of patient need and, um-

    8. ACDr. Alan Castel1:39:21

       Hmm

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:39:21

       ... I thought it, it, you know, this comes to mind now in, in this conversation. Like-

    10. ACDr. Alan Castel1:39:25

        Mm-hmm

    11. AHAndrew Huberman1:39:25

        ... I think if you accrue enough experiences, good and bad, it does... We kind of bucket list life. We're like, "Okay, you know-

    12. ACDr. Alan Castel1:39:32

        Mm

    13. AHAndrew Huberman1:39:32

        ... I, I did this and I did that, and maybe I would've liked more of that, but I can't do that anymore, and-

    14. ACDr. Alan Castel1:39:37

        Yeah

    15. AHAndrew Huberman1:39:38

        ... you know, definitely didn't want more of that."

    16. ACDr. Alan Castel1:39:39

        Yeah.

    17. AHAndrew Huberman1:39:39

        And you know, w- we can kind of-

    18. ACDr. Alan Castel1:39:41

        Yeah

    19. AHAndrew Huberman1:39:41

        ... bucket list life.

    20. ACDr. Alan Castel1:39:42

        Yeah.

    21. AHAndrew Huberman1:39:42

        And I never had a bucket list growing up. It would've been very useful. Like, s- sit down and, at any age, I guess, and just write out what are the things you absolutely don't want to, uh, leave this life not having done. And the... And try and make those happen because, God forbid, if you have one of these injuries or you stroke out and die or have a heart attack, not to sound morbid, but then, you know, you, you've done the things.

    22. ACDr. Alan Castel1:40:06

        Mm.

    23. AHAndrew Huberman1:40:07

        And I think that's the real tragedy of when people are limited early on. And I don't know what became of the younger guy. Um, hopefully he, um, figured it out because I know a lot of people, because of that work, that, um, are blind or paralyzed, um, who live very enriched lives with families and all that. But it's curious. It's like, uh... I didn't think we'd get to, like, the meaning of life here or purpose, purpose in life. But w- we should probably plan and, and carry out on those plans a- and not just live by default.

    24. ACDr. Alan Castel1:40:39

        Yeah.

    25. AHAndrew Huberman1:40:39

        Wait till we're older, and then try and figure out how we can go longer with a little less pain, um, and a few, uh, more memories.

    26. ACDr. Alan Castel1:40:47

        I mean, it's an interesting case study when you compare those two individuals and then say, you know, "What, what do you wanna get out of life?" And it's kind of a big picture question. And but a lot of older adults will say they have pretty good life satisfaction. You know, happiness, life satisfaction could be similar and related. And it's, again, it's the midlife people who seem to be lacking.

    27. AHAndrew Huberman1:41:06

        Hmm.

    28. ACDr. Alan Castel1:41:06

        And I don't know if we're at that stage, but I feel like maybe I'm on the uptick. But I don't, I don't know if I have a bucket list, but I certainly would like to do more things like, "Hey, I really enjoyed that trip to Sedona, Arizona. I'd like to do that again."

    29. AHAndrew Huberman1:41:16

        Sedona's amazing.

    30. ACDr. Alan Castel1:41:17

        It's amazing.
23. 1:44:58 – 1:51:02

    Deliberately Building Memories; the ABCs of Successful Aging

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:44:58

       um, in addition to deliberately trying to build memories. You know, the, the decision to not fly planes and, but maybe to get out to Sedona or Matador or Big Sur or something like that. Yosemite. I'm putting in a strong vote for Yosemite.

    2. ACDr. Alan Castel1:45:10

       [laughs]

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:45:11

       You wanna have an amazing experience in life, it's very low cost. If you can get yourself to l- Yosemite, drive up to the high country and hike Clouds Rest. It's the-

    4. ACDr. Alan Castel1:45:19

       Mm-hmm

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:45:19

       ... it's the best thing-

    6. ACDr. Alan Castel1:45:20

       All right

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:45:21

       ... you'll ever do. But-

    8. ACDr. Alan Castel1:45:21

       That's on my bucket list there, yeah

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:45:22

       ... but get there early 'cause it, you'll be coming down in the dark if you don't. And bring water, 'cause there's no water along the way. Amazing place. I'm putting a big plug for national parks 'cause I love Yosemite. The discussion you had with Wooden, you said, uh, the two takeaways that he, um, offered were love and balance, and then ironically, he ha- got harmed and eventually died from a fall 'cause his pride got in the way. Um, was there anything else in that conversation that didn't get into your book or that, um, is just maybe was more subtle that you think about? If not, no big deal. Um...

    10. ACDr. Alan Castel1:45:57

        I mean, it, f- first of all, it wasn't the fall that led to his death.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman1:46:01

        Okay.

    12. ACDr. Alan Castel1:46:01

        It was... You know, he had a fall. He didn't press his lu- He, he was resilient. He bounced back. And, um, you know, eventually, you know, I think n- nearly 99 is when he passed away, so y- several years after the fall. That was such an inspiring interview. And I remember when I first got my job at UCLA... You know, growing up in Canada, I'll admit, the reason I knew UCLA was the basketball team and the football team. [laughs] I remember watching the Rose Bowl. It's-

    13. AHAndrew Huberman1:46:26

        Okay, many people-

    14. ACDr. Alan Castel1:46:27

        Yeah

    15. AHAndrew Huberman1:46:27

        ... throughout the world think that UCLA is a basketball team.

    16. ACDr. Alan Castel1:46:30

        Yeah, yeah.

    17. AHAndrew Huberman1:46:30

        That's a... They, I'm not sure that they know that-

    18. ACDr. Alan Castel1:46:32

        Yeah

    19. AHAndrew Huberman1:46:32

        ... um, that it-

    20. ACDr. Alan Castel1:46:34

        And they've had their ups and downs

    21. AHAndrew Huberman1:46:35

        ... that, that there's a school there. Right.

    22. ACDr. Alan Castel1:46:36

        But I also thought, "Gosh, that place sure looks nice in the winter." [laughs]

    23. AHAndrew Huberman1:46:40

        Mm-hmm.

    24. ACDr. Alan Castel1:46:40

        And, um, and so I, it was, I was thankful to be connected to Coach Wooden, who actually used to lecture in a, in a leadership class once a year. And, um, he was very interested in, you know, serving as a coach, but also as a teacher. So I think this sort of generativity, um, you know, he was so kind and thoughtful, and then you come into his, you know, it was a two-bedroom condo in Encino. This is not how a famous basketball coach would live now. And he had no problem with that.

    25. AHAndrew Huberman1:47:10

        He wasn't in- interested in wealth or anything like that.

    26. ACDr. Alan Castel1:47:12

        I think partly he didn't have and-

    27. AHAndrew Huberman1:47:14

        Mm-hmm

    28. ACDr. Alan Castel1:47:14

        ... led a very fulfilling life in the absence of that, whereas now you see in professional sports and all s- You know, wealth can lead to all sorts of problems. But-

    29. AHAndrew Huberman1:47:23

        Mm-hmm

    30. ACDr. Alan Castel1:47:23

        ... um, so I was impressed with that and just all the, you know, the pride he had. And he... You know, sharing the, the love and balance quote, I thought was, was helpful, and I tried to distill it in, in the book to capture not just what Wooden said, but others, that, what I call the ABCs of successful aging. It's a kind of an easier way to... And A is, is in attitude, having a positive attitude about what can happen as you get older. And actually, more recent research shows that those who have a positive attitude live longer. They're less likely to develop dementia. And so it's probably maybe less stress, better behavior, but more recent research shows that if you have a more negative attitude overall of what can happen as you get older, but a more positive attitude about what you can do, your own personal kind of agency over the process, that leads to kind of, uh, longer life.
24. 1:51:02 – 1:57:16

    Following Your Interests; Castel's Path & Older Adults

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:51:02

       PhD in neuroscience-

    2. ACDr. Alan Castel1:51:03

       [laughs]

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:51:03

       ... so I did it. Like, I just sort of followed my interests. There wasn't this idea that you could, like, fundamentally transform how long you were gonna live or how great you were gonna feel at a given age, but so I kind of wonder if it's both good and bad. Um, I don't wanna undercut the idea that we can, um, strive for those things, but I also don't wanna promote the idea that w- that we should all be thinking about what it's gonna be like when we're 70. I mean, the, the unit of life being the day, I think is, um-

    4. ACDr. Alan Castel1:51:33

       Hmm

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:51:33

       ... true in the circadian sense. Our biology resets every 24 hours.

    6. ACDr. Alan Castel1:51:37

       Mm-hmm.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:51:37

       Having recently, um, pulled the first all-nighter in, in a while to-

    8. ACDr. Alan Castel1:51:40

       Yeah. [laughs]

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:51:40

       ... finish some book edits, last-minute little nip/tuck stuff with, with my producer and friend Rob, we legitimately pushed through. It was like, "It's midnight. Okay, we'll go to 2:00." And then at 2:00 it was like, I get- Then we're like, "Looks like we're going through," and been a while.

    10. ACDr. Alan Castel1:51:53

        Yeah.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman1:51:53

        It was fun to just be able... You know, as much as I talk about the benefits of sleep-

    12. ACDr. Alan Castel1:51:57

        Yeah

    13. AHAndrew Huberman1:51:57

        ... um, it's like that was cool. I haven't done that in a while.

    14. ACDr. Alan Castel1:52:00

        Yeah.

    15. AHAndrew Huberman1:52:00

        Still got it. It hurt the next day. We get a nap. Next day you sleep a little longer. Like, you know, you're not gonna... Did I shorten my life? I don't know. I feel like I got... I'll remember that.

    16. ACDr. Alan Castel1:52:09

        You'll remember it-

    17. AHAndrew Huberman1:52:10

        Yeah

    18. ACDr. Alan Castel1:52:10

        ... and you're contributing to something that, you know, you think is important. You know, this is a book.

    19. AHAndrew Huberman1:52:14

        Yeah.

    20. ACDr. Alan Castel1:52:14

        This is something that you wanna make sure it's accurate and, you know, thoughtful and, you know, I think when you work hard at something, it does make you feel good. You're probably getting a lot of, you know, neurotransmitter reward mechanism kicking in.

    21. AHAndrew Huberman1:52:26

        Yeah, it was so much fun. This is why I always say, you know, the occasional, like, late night out or all-nighter-

    22. ACDr. Alan Castel1:52:30

        Yeah

    23. AHAndrew Huberman1:52:30

        ... as long as it's for the right reasons, you know-

    24. ACDr. Alan Castel1:52:32

        Yeah

    25. AHAndrew Huberman1:52:32

        ... I, I wish that for people. Occasional.

    26. ACDr. Alan Castel1:52:34

        Yeah.

    27. AHAndrew Huberman1:52:34

        As you can tell, I'm, I'm really intrigued by this idea that there's something about pushing ourselves, and as Wooden p- pointed out, there's also something about coming off the gas and being able to lean back and forth into those things. Like, life is an oscillation. It's a circadian oscillation, and then the... It's like this push, push, push, and then being able to come off the gas, and-

    28. ACDr. Alan Castel1:52:55

        Mm-hmm

    29. AHAndrew Huberman1:52:55

        ... it's an art. It's not a, it's not a science.

    30. ACDr. Alan Castel1:52:57

        Yeah.
25. 1:57:16 – 2:01:19

    Mental Simulations, Curiosity Studies & Selectivity

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:57:16

       deadly.

    2. ACDr. Alan Castel1:57:16

       You know, we've run a lot of simulations in our brain, like what if I did this, or what if I didn't do that, or what if I met this person, or what if I took this job? And I think at some point, when you're young, maybe that's helpful, like trying to figure out what would work out best. But as you're older, it's like, well, these things have happened and I've learned from them. Um, and yeah, I think it's, you know, really interesting to think of that as what if? What if this happened? And you can get yourself into a lot of trouble thinking what if that happens and what... You know, the world can be an incredibly dreary place-

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:57:46

       Mm-hmm

    4. ACDr. Alan Castel1:57:47

       ... um, when you, when you think of it that way, but it's also amazing to see. And maybe that's why I'm interested in older adults, it's like look at these people who's 70, 80, 90. I'm not just looking at the 90-year-olds who are doing incredible things, I'm looking at the 90-year-olds who are, you know, perhaps at peace with themselves, you know, feel comfortable, um, talking about things that they wanna talk about. I, you know, I enjoyed your father's podcast partly because I'm like, "Here's a guy who's not afraid of saying some things," and think it-

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:58:12

       Well, I appreciate that you said that

    6. ACDr. Alan Castel1:58:13

       ... maybe, maybe it's not always, you know, what people would expect, um-

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:58:16

       No, he's a, he has an irreverence to him. I mean, he's very, um, polite and, uh, believes in etiquette, but, um, he doesn't let people constrain him.

    8. ACDr. Alan Castel1:58:27

       Yeah. And, you know, I, I just found that, you know, there's a lot of these podcasts have, have a lot of science in them, but he had a lot of, you know, things that made me think, "Gosh, that's interesting. Could we test that? Is that really how... "You know, he... Curiosity, one of our more recent studies, has shown that as we get older, you know, memory does decline in, in many ways. But, um, older adults can remember prices, let's say. That makes sense. So, you know, the bananas being, you know, 2.99. But as soon as we say bananas are 18.49, that just doesn't make sense, and older adults quickly forget that. And that's something we were talking about, that the benefit of forgetting things that just don't fit your schemas, that just don't make sense. With younger adults, um, you know, a lot of undergraduates will be like, "You know, I highlighted 80% of the textbook. Why did I get a C on the exam?" It's this inability to kind of selectively focus on what's important.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:59:18

       Mm-hmm.

    10. ACDr. Alan Castel1:59:19

        I've, I've seen that even in myself, like, you know, when I was younger, I'd be taking notes on everything. But by your fourth year, you realize, you know what, let me sit back and look for the overarching themes-

    11. AHAndrew Huberman1:59:28

        Yeah

    12. ACDr. Alan Castel1:59:28

        ... that connect things. And that's almost how I did well in psychology is I'm like, "Okay, some of these findings make sense, and so I can remember it that way, but some of them are counterintuitive." And a lot of this like people aren't always rational, this Kahneman and Tversky, you know, all these biases people have, well, that's fascinating. So I just remember it that way, the things that made sense and the things that didn't make sense.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman1:59:49

        Mm-hmm.

    14. ACDr. Alan Castel1:59:49

        And that's kind of how you can organize things. And I think that, that can be kind of a useful principle as you get older, is knowing what to overlook and kind of knowing what to focus on. And so, you know, older adults, even though they'll say, "My memory's not as sharp as it used to be," as long as you can remember the things that are kind of critical, um, that's what's important. And so in the study on curiosity, we found that older adults tend to remember the things that they're most curious about, but they're also really good at forgetting the things that they just didn't care about in the first place.

    15. AHAndrew Huberman2:00:18

        Sounds great.

    16. ACDr. Alan Castel2:00:19

        Yeah. [laughs]

    17. AHAndrew Huberman2:00:19

        Honestly, it sounds great.

    18. ACDr. Alan Castel2:00:21

        Right. [laughs]

    19. AHAndrew Huberman2:00:21

        Yeah. I can't wait.

    20. ACDr. Alan Castel2:00:22

        Right.

    21. AHAndrew Huberman2:00:23

        Because, um, I wanna learn more about certain things, remember certain th- people and certain things, but there's a lot of stuff that rolls through my phone or through my email.

    22. ACDr. Alan Castel2:00:31

        Yeah.

    23. AHAndrew Huberman2:00:32

        Luckily, not through my daily experience, but that I, I don't wanna think about that stuff.

    24. ACDr. Alan Castel2:00:35

        And it captures your attention, and all of a sudden you're like, "Where did the last 10 minutes go?"

    25. AHAndrew Huberman2:00:39

        Yeah.

    26. ACDr. Alan Castel2:00:39

        "I've been reading about this, now I'm remembering this useless thing."

    27. AHAndrew Huberman2:00:42

        Yeah. Yeah.

    28. ACDr. Alan Castel2:00:42

        Um, so I think if you can prune these things, and as you get older, maybe you realize, I, I've even realized that, gosh, I forget this. I ca- I need to focus more. It's not just conscious focus, but it's like I, you know, I'm interested in this, let's put more resources and time and energy into that. It takes me longer to learn a piano piece than, you know, my daughter.

    29. AHAndrew Huberman2:01:02

        You play piano?

    30. ACDr. Alan Castel2:01:02

        I try.
26. 2:01:19 – 2:07:10

    Socioemotional Selectivity Theory; Steve Jobs & Lifespan

    1. ACDr. Alan Castel2:01:19

       I've, you know, two daughters and a son, and I see them all excelling. Like, my older daughter is like, wow, her s- cognitive skills are probably beyond mine in terms of speed of processing. She might even be a better driver than I am. Um, you know, she's good at planning things. My daughter playing piano, it's like, gosh, if I could have those skills now, how I would practice more. My son will hurt himself in baseball, and I'm like, "Ugh, he's out for three weeks." Three days later, he's pitching again.

    2. AHAndrew Huberman2:01:44

       [laughs]

    3. ACDr. Alan Castel2:01:45

       Right? So those are things where it's like, yes, aging sucks-

    4. AHAndrew Huberman2:01:47

       Yeah

    5. ACDr. Alan Castel2:01:47

       ... in some ways, [laughs] I'll, I'll be upfront about it. But I think when you appreciate those things as you get 40, 50, 60, it's like, yeah, that's, you know, it's hard to recover from injuries. It, it takes you maybe longer to learn something. But the things you really do care about, you can use all this kind of knowledge and wisdom and metacognition to focus on kind of what matters the most.

    6. AHAndrew Huberman2:02:08

       So it's almost as if as we are able to do less with less pain or just do less, attitude starts to become more and more important. That's what I'm hearing, but I don't wanna lead the witness, as they say.

    7. ACDr. Alan Castel2:02:21

       Yeah, I think that's definitely the perspective. And, you know, this is built on some developmental theories of social, you know, social learning, but also selective optimization with compensation. You know, that as you get older, maybe you're not gonna be doing all these things like scuba diving and hiking, but you'll be like, "You know, that one hike I really enjoy, I wanna be able to do it once a week."

    8. AHAndrew Huberman2:02:41

       Mm-hmm.

    9. ACDr. Alan Castel2:02:41

       Um, and so you're still doing the things you like, but you're not doing kind of the, the wide range of them. And another related theory is, you know, s- um, socioemotional selectivity theory, Laura Carstensen at Stanford. Another perspective saying that as we get older, our, kind of our, our mindset shifts, that we don't have as much time to live, so we wanna focus on the things that are important. Whereas when you're young, it's very abstract to say save for retirement or what are you gonna do when you're 60? It's like, "That, what am I gonna do next week," right? But her work has shown that when you give people different time perspectives, they make different choices. So if you unfortunately tell someone who's younger that they only have five to 10 years left to live, they're gonna make choices very much like older adults do. So I don't know if it's conscious that we're thinking these things, but, you know, as you get older, maybe you realize, "I wanna focus on the things that matter the most. Maybe I won't worry so much about the things that I used to worry about all the time." Um, and, and that can be kind of a, a healthy way to approach life.

    10. AHAndrew Huberman2:03:39

        This might sound a little, uh, mystical, but I've always wondered if barring accident or injury, whether people have some unconscious knowledge about how long they're going to live. Um, you know, I grew up near Steve Jobs. He used to come into the skateboard shop that I worked to get rollerblade wheels and things like that, and he was around. He didn't have security. He'd walk... When I was a post-doc, you'd still see him walking through downtown Palo Alto in the evenings. My dad and I would walk about once a week.

    11. ACDr. Alan Castel2:04:05

        Hmm.

    12. AHAndrew Huberman2:04:06

        We'd take a walk together, and you'd see Steve. He was, you know... Passed away, I think, in 2015 or something like that.

    13. ACDr. Alan Castel2:04:12

        Mm-hmm.

    14. AHAndrew Huberman2:04:12

        That sound about right?

    15. ACDr. Alan Castel2:04:13

        Yeah.

    16. AHAndrew Huberman2:04:13

        In any case, he, he was thinning out then. He was going through his various treatments, but, you know, if you listen to his biography with Walter Isaacson, um, written by Walter Isaacson, it, I mean, it was very clear that he had a mission, he was on it, that life was... You had to maximize on your life, that you couldn't compromise. And okay, that led to some kind of high-friction personality traits in him, too, but-

    17. ACDr. Alan Castel2:04:35

        Mm-hmm

    18. AHAndrew Huberman2:04:35

        ... I don't think anyone would argue, uh, th- that he didn't do something super impressive in what he built, and it transformed the world. [laughs] I mean, most everyone listening to this has an Apple product in their vicinity as I say this, right?

    19. ACDr. Alan Castel2:04:47

        Mm-hmm.

    20. AHAndrew Huberman2:04:48

        And it almost seemed like he had some deeper knowledge he wasn't gonna live that long. And when I think about, like, the 27 Club of, you know, amazing artists dying or at 27-

    21. ACDr. Alan Castel2:04:59

        Mm

    22. AHAndrew Huberman2:04:59

        ... and just like, it's almost like there, there's a life energy that's either packed into a shorter period of time, a medium amount of time, or a longer time. Now, of course, accidents, injuries, and things can happen, um, to... But I wonder, like, if we have a sense based on our parents, our grandparents, our life notion of, like, "I'm gonna be around a while"-

    23. ACDr. Alan Castel2:05:16

        Yeah

    24. AHAndrew Huberman2:05:16

        ... or because it really seemed to benefit him to have this attitude about life.

    25. ACDr. Alan Castel2:05:21

        Yeah.

    26. AHAndrew Huberman2:05:21

        Like, you get one life. You have to live it on your terms. Um, you don't wanna compromise your soul and your, your, your heart, and you just go for it.

    27. ACDr. Alan Castel2:05:31

        Mm-hmm.

    28. AHAndrew Huberman2:05:32

        And then there are these people that sort of live life as if it's gonna go on forever. And for them, it seems to go on a long time, and it seems to be kind of a lower, slower arc. I'm not saying one is better than the other.

    29. ACDr. Alan Castel2:05:41

        Mm.

    30. AHAndrew Huberman2:05:41

        Right?
27. 2:07:10 – 2:11:04

    The Secret to Successful Aging; State vs Trait Curiosity

    1. ACDr. Alan Castel2:07:10

       so, you know, a lot of people say, "What's the secret to successful aging?" And, um, I think the secret is not to look for one thing probably. You know, we've talked a lot about, you know, exercise, sleep, and a lot of people say it's moderation. Like, it doesn't mean, like, don't drink coffee or drink seven cups a day. It's like, if you want a cup of coffee, have one. But you can realize maybe you don't want it every day. Get, you know, eight hours of sleep, well, not every night. Clearly, pulling an all-nighter might have been a benefit for you and even a, a good investment.

    2. AHAndrew Huberman2:07:39

       It was fun.

    3. ACDr. Alan Castel2:07:39

       And at this age-

    4. AHAndrew Huberman2:07:39

       I don't wanna do it again for a very long time, but-

    5. ACDr. Alan Castel2:07:41

       Oh, then you've probably learned from that. You're like, "I don't wanna be editing books late at night once a week." [laughs] Right? But once every few years, especially if it might pay off-

    6. AHAndrew Huberman2:07:49

       Mm-hmm

    7. ACDr. Alan Castel2:07:49

       ... that's, that's part of the, you know, the deal I've made with myself, so.

    8. AHAndrew Huberman2:07:52

       And the friendship, I'm realizing as you say this, the fact that someone else was there-

    9. ACDr. Alan Castel2:07:56

       Yeah

    10. AHAndrew Huberman2:07:56

        ... is what kept me out of, like-

    11. ACDr. Alan Castel2:07:57

        Sure

    12. AHAndrew Huberman2:07:58

        ... you know, swearing, like, "This sucks"-

    13. ACDr. Alan Castel2:07:59

        Yeah

    14. AHAndrew Huberman2:07:59

        ... or what. It's, it's fun.

    15. ACDr. Alan Castel2:08:00

        Yeah.

    16. AHAndrew Huberman2:08:00

        It reminds me of being in graduate school.

    17. ACDr. Alan Castel2:08:02

        Yeah.

    18. AHAndrew Huberman2:08:02

        We used to run physiology experiments all night or imaging experiments all night.

    19. ACDr. Alan Castel2:08:05

        Yeah.

    20. AHAndrew Huberman2:08:05

        And you get pretty loopy somewhere between 3:00 and 5:00 AM.

    21. ACDr. Alan Castel2:08:08

        [laughs]

    22. AHAndrew Huberman2:08:08

        And you just acknowledge, like, "Oh, here we go again."

    23. ACDr. Alan Castel2:08:11

        Yeah.

    24. AHAndrew Huberman2:08:11

        Like, like mild psychosis-

    25. ACDr. Alan Castel2:08:12

        Right

    26. AHAndrew Huberman2:08:12

        ... 'cause you are a little bit psychotic in-

    27. ACDr. Alan Castel2:08:14

        Yeah

    28. AHAndrew Huberman2:08:14

        ... in a sleep-deprived state.

    29. ACDr. Alan Castel2:08:15

        Yeah.

    30. AHAndrew Huberman2:08:15

        And you make it through and you're like, "Hey, we did that. That was, that was fun," you know?
28. 2:11:04 – 2:14:31

    Scams & AI Voice Cloning

    1. AHAndrew Huberman2:11:04

       running those scams?

    2. ACDr. Alan Castel2:11:04

       People are running them.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman2:11:05

       [laughs]

    4. ACDr. Alan Castel2:11:05

       And that's an old one. That was when, you know, younger people are posting things on Facebook and all of a sudden their voice is captured and now their voice is played to a grandparent who's like, "Oh my gosh, I need to help this pers- you know, my loved one." And it's preying on, you know, socioemotional selectivity theory, that we focus on family and feelings and emotions, and older adults get caught by this. And AI has just made this even worse, um, because you're gonna get pho- you could get a phone call from Steve Jobs that sounds just like Steve Jobs right now, even though you know he's not around. And so we're looking at how, as we get older, are we able to distinguish between kind of this fake information and what's real? And it's not just older adults who are, you know, prone to this. It's younger people too, who are, you know, in a rush, might not be paying attention to something, more likely to get identity theft. Whereas older adults, they have more money, they have more to lose. And so I think that's, that's on the more practical side of being able to identify how, you know, scams and fraud target people. But there's a psychological component. You know, emotions again that, you know, might engage older adults more so, whereas younger people are more interested in, you know, oh, my loan is gonna be forgiven if I give some information? Great. [chuckles] Um, so it's kind of using psychological mechanisms, um, in a, in a very nefarious way. So I'm interested in how we can try and kind of prevent that.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman2:12:27

       Mm-hmm.

    6. ACDr. Alan Castel2:12:28

       And, uh, I feel like there's a lot of amateur psychologists out there who are engaged in this, this kind of form of fraud. Um, so that's another area of, of interest, and trying to design experiments but also look at more practical implications.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman2:12:41

       It's cool. You have a lot of care for the older generation.

    8. ACDr. Alan Castel2:12:44

       Well. [chuckles]

    9. AHAndrew Huberman2:12:45

       You're, you're a protector.

    10. ACDr. Alan Castel2:12:46

        That's-

    11. AHAndrew Huberman2:12:46

        Well, that's really great.

    12. ACDr. Alan Castel2:12:47

        Yeah. It's, it's the respect. It's-

    13. AHAndrew Huberman2:12:47

        I mean, you know, we've had a lot of discussions on this podcast about, you know, youth and, um, and, and everybody, you know, every age. But, um, I don't recall a conversation with anyone-

    14. ACDr. Alan Castel2:12:57

        [chuckles]

    15. AHAndrew Huberman2:12:57

        ... um, much less a scientist who's interested in, uh, protecting, uh, older folks.

    16. ACDr. Alan Castel2:13:03

        Yeah.

    17. AHAndrew Huberman2:13:03

        I know you thought about and, uh, maybe you can tell us what this wisdom thing is about, right? I mean, it's like I feel like, uh, um, I'm not trying to be, um, facetious here when I say, you know, that there seems to be a kind of transformation of, of advice from just advice to wisdom when... after somebody dies.

    18. ACDr. Alan Castel2:13:23

        Mm-hmm.

    19. AHAndrew Huberman2:13:24

        Right?

    20. ACDr. Alan Castel2:13:24

        Mm-hmm.

    21. AHAndrew Huberman2:13:24

        It's like when they're still around, it sounds like advice.

    22. ACDr. Alan Castel2:13:26

        Yeah.

    23. AHAndrew Huberman2:13:26

        And then they die and it's like wisdom.

    24. ACDr. Alan Castel2:13:28

        Yeah.

    25. AHAndrew Huberman2:13:28

        You know? And, um, and I'm not trying to make light of it.

    26. ACDr. Alan Castel2:13:30

        Yeah.

    27. AHAndrew Huberman2:13:31

        But it does seem like we look at knowledge from people that have passed away, um, as different.

    28. ACDr. Alan Castel2:13:36

        Yeah.

    29. AHAndrew Huberman2:13:36

        Like, uh, I haven't read much about Wooden. I like basketball, but I'm- I like, um, track enough that I read, um-

    30. ACDr. Alan Castel2:13:44

        Mm-hmm
29. 2:14:31 – 2:17:41

    John Wooden, Wisdom, Love & Balance

    1. AHAndrew Huberman2:14:31

       what, what is that?

    2. ACDr. Alan Castel2:14:31

       I think Wooden got a lot of play for his wisdom. He retired at an earlier age than most people do. He didn't need to. He didn't, um... I don't think he made as much money as, you know, coaches do now. But I think you're right. It's interesting how knowledge goes into, to wisdom. And I think even when I was thinking of, like, my own interest in, in wisdom and aging is, you know, I had an older math teacher who also was my basketball coach.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman2:14:55

       Hmm.

    4. ACDr. Alan Castel2:14:56

       And I think he was formative when I think of, you know, why I, I'm interested... And he was older, and he said, "Listen, you're not gonna be starting this year if you don't put the time in to your calculus class that you're putting the time into basketball." [chuckles] And he was very clear about that. And I was like... He said, "You have tremendous potential in calculus." He didn't say anything about basketball, [chuckles] but he's, he's kind of saying, like, "You need to work harder."

    5. AHAndrew Huberman2:15:19

       Mm-hmm.

    6. ACDr. Alan Castel2:15:19

       The motivation is there. I've had older rabbis who've given me advice, you know, growing up that I, you know, not even being religious then still resonates with me. And so I think, you know, even at the practical level, the wisdom sometimes y- y- it's nice to hear it from the horse's mouth. You can read this ... cute little quote or something, and that, that's reasonable. And then I think wisdom also has a very practical kind of application. So you know, Sully Sullenberger, you know, the, the pilot, you know, the plane, I don't know if you've seen the movie, but if you remember the history is that, you know, a plane takes off from New York City and both engines go out, and he's over New York City, and he has to engage in an emergency landing. And he has to... So who do you want? Do you want a younger pilot who has faster reaction times, better memory, or do you want an older pilot who has more experience flying but has never landed a plane on water? And we know how the story ends, thankfully, but most people would probably, you know, as I asked my class this, this is, like, the dilemma. Where, you know, where is the wisdom? Where is the knowledge? You know, if you're the faster pilot, maybe you turn around and land at an airport. That makes more sense. But Sully eventually decided that he had to make this water landing, and he said the reason he knew he could pull this off is he used to fly gliders, you know. And he said the principles are the same, but it's gonna be a very different, you know, physics and weight management. But he said he felt like he'd made a number of, um, investments over the years of kind of boosting his knowledge so that he could make one enormous withdrawal [laughs] basically landing this plane on the Hudson River, which is, you know, an amazing feat.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman2:16:58

       That's wild.

    8. ACDr. Alan Castel2:16:59

       Yeah. And so I think that's, you know, it's a dramatic Hollywood, and there's a movie about it as well, but I think it's a, a nice illustration of you can accumulate all this knowledge not just so you apply what you've learned. It's you're, you're having to, you know, transform that knowledge and say, "Now I'm gonna apply it in this one emergency situation." So maybe that's the difference between, you know, knowledge, which is like I know so much, and then wisdom of, like, how to carry it out or when it's appropriate.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman2:17:26

       It does help when the coaches have played, right, like Steve Kerr.

    10. ACDr. Alan Castel2:17:29

        But some of the best coaches are the ones who were the worst. You know, Tommy Lasorda, you know, all these people are like they struggled, and they've seen it, and now they're gonna go into coaching. Um, and maybe that's the same with older adults. Uh,

30. 2:17:41 – 2:25:00

    Learning Through Mistakes; Does the Brain Get Better With Age?

    1. ACDr. Alan Castel2:17:41

       you know, again, these two older adults who took my class were therapists. You know, it's like if you see a therapist, would you wanna see a 20-year-old, or would you wanna see a 50 or 60-year-old, right? It just seems like there's gonna be a difference in what they bring to the table.

    2. AHAndrew Huberman2:17:55

       Nowadays, I think a lot of people are gonna say ChatGPT.

Episode duration: 2:28:39