How to Shape Your Identity & Goals | Dr. Maya Shankar

1. 0:00 – 2:37

   Dr. Maya Shankar

   1. AHAndrew Huberman0:00

      Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. Today my guest is Dr. Maya Shankar. Dr. Maya Shankar is a cognitive scientist who did her undergraduate training at Yale University, her PhD thesis at Oxford as a Rhodes Scholar, and a postdoctoral fellowship also in cognitive science at Stanford University. Dr. Shankar also served as a senior advisor to the White House, and she founded and served as the chair of the White House Behavioral Science Team. Dr. Shankar is also the host of her own podcast entitled A Slight Change of Plans. And indeed, Dr. Shankar herself is no stranger to having to make major changes to one's life plans. As you'll learn today, prior to all of those incredible accomplishments that Dr. Shankar has achieved, she was a student at the Juilliard Conservatory of Music, preparing her life to become a professional concert violinist. But, as you'll also soon learn, she then experienced a career-devastating injury, forcing herself to have to reframe everything about her life plans and her own identity. And that's really what we talk about today. We talk about identity, not just Dr. Shankar's prior and current identities, but of course your identity. We pose a number of questions geared toward getting you to ask, "Who am I really?" "Do my goals align with who I am and what I want?" Dr. Shankar shares with us the research on identity, goals, motivation, and plans, as well as many practical tools to answer those key questions that guide us down either the correct or incorrect trajectories in life. She shares with us, for instance, how to assess on-paper goals of the sort that you would see on a CV, so which school, which job, which salary, which spouse, et cetera, et cetera, and how to relate those to the deeper feelings that relate to one's ability to continually pursue a given goal knowing that it's the right goal for us. We also talk about the science of feelings, what they can and cannot tell us, and when they should or should not serve as a compass for guiding our everyday and longer-term decisions. By the end of today's episode, you will realize that Dr. Shankar is essentially handing you a science-supported roadmap for how to determine and assess your identity and goals and how one influences the other, that is, how your identity influences your goals and how your goals influences your identity in becoming the person that you want to be.

2. 2:37 – 5:15

   Sponsors: Maui Nui Venison & Eight Sleep

   1. AHAndrew Huberman2:37

      Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast. Our first sponsor is Maui Nui Venison. Maui Nui Venison is the most nutrient-dense and delicious red meat available. I've spoken before on this podcast, in solo episodes and with guests, about the need to get approximately one gram of high-quality protein per pound of body weight each day for optimal nutrition. Now, there are many different ways that one can do that, but a key thing is to make sure that you're not doing that by ingesting excessive calories. Maui Nui Venison has the highest density of quality protein per calorie, and it achieves that in delicious things like ground meats, venison steaks, jerky, and bone broth. I particularly like the ground venison. I make those into venison burgers probably five times a week or more. I also like the jerky for its convenience, especially when I'm traveling or I'm especially busy with work and know that I'm getting an extremely nutrient-dense, high-quality source of protein. If you'd like to try Maui Nui Venison, you can go to maui nui venison dot com slash huberman and get 20% off your first order. Again, that's maui nui venison dot com slash huberman to get 20% off. Today's episode is also brought to us by Eight Sleep. Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep-tracking capacity. Sleep is the foundation of mental health, physical health, and performance. When we're sleeping well and enough, everything in life goes much better, and when we aren't sleeping well or long enough, things in life get worse. We know that from data. We all know that from our own experience. One of the essential things to getting a great night's sleep is that the temperature of your sleeping environment needs to be such that your core body temperature drops by about one to three degrees in order to fall and stay deeply asleep and then increase by one to three degrees in order to wake up feeling refreshed in the morning. With Eight Sleep smart mattress covers, you can program the temperature of your sleeping environment so that it's ideally matched to your temperature needs. I started sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover a few years ago, and it has completely transformed the quality of the sleep that I get, so much so that I actually loathe traveling because I don't have my Eight Sleep mattress cover when I travel. If you'd like to try Eight Sleep, you can go to eight sleep dot com slash huberman, and you'll save up to $150 off their Pod 3 cover. Eight Sleep currently ships in the USA, Canada, UK, select countries in the EU, and Australia. Again, that's eight sleep dot com slash huberman. And now for my discussion with Dr. Maya Shankar.

3. 5:15 – 12:10

   Identity Foreclosure, Identity Paralysis, Throughlines

   1. AHAndrew Huberman5:15

      Welcome. I'm so happy you're here.

   2. MSMaya Shankar5:16

      Thanks, Andrew. It's great to be here.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman5:19

      I have a lot of questions about identity, about goals and motivation, and about change in general. But I'd like to start off with identity.

   4. MSMaya Shankar5:29

      Mm-hmm.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman5:30

      And I'd like to divide it into two segments. The first is how we form an identity, and, you know, we'll get into your story in, I hope, uh, a bit or more of detail. But when we're younger, we tend to ask questions about ourselves but also about the world around us. We want to learn what our parents do for a living, uh, what the workers on the street are doing that for, et cetera. H- how much of our early identity do you think is formed by...... observation of what we are doing versus observation and labels of the people that are around us and closest to us?

   6. MSMaya Shankar6:10

      Yeah, it's a great question. Um, I think a lot of it is based on what we see around us and what we see, uh, is deemed successful and, and society privileges. And there's a concept called identity foreclosure, where actually when you're young, right, it's not just that you're observing what your parents are doing or what your peer group is doing, they impose their own structures on you. And so what that can do is it can really limit your mindset in terms of what it is that you want to achieve and what it is that you're capable of achieving. And so oftentimes when people experience identity foreclosure, they have to take a lot of active steps to overcome whatever biases or limitations they experienced as a young person, um, given what they were projected (laughs) to do or believe, right? Um, so identity, you know, can be about what you do, it can also be about what you believe in the world, right? And so a lot of those belief systems are also passed down. You inherit belief systems from the people, um, that surround you when you're young. And if there's one thing that I've learned, it's that we, we tend to put a huge premium on what it is that we do. We tend to define ourselves by what we do. And you can see this in the questions we ask young children. What do you want to be when you grow up, right? We never say, "Who do you want to be when you grow up? What kind of person do you want to be when you grow up?" We say, "What do you want to be?" And the consequence of that kind of mindset is that we end up anchoring our identities very firmly to what it is that we do. And I certainly, you know, we were talk, you were alluding to my personal story, right? I started playing the violin when I was a little kid, six years old, became absolutely obsessed, and for the large part of my childhood, I was first and foremost a violinist. I mean, if I had met you, I'd be like, "Hey, Andrew, I'm a violinist." And then the second up would be, "I'm Maya." (laughs) That's how tethered my identity was to, to being a violinist. And then fast-forward to when I'm a teenager, you know, I have these huge dreams of, of going pro and, and becoming, you know, yeah, just like a, hopefully a professional violinist for the rest of my life, and then I tear a tendon in my hand, my dreams end overnight, and suddenly there's this profound loss of identity. Because what I hadn't realized is that in losing the violin, sure, I was losing the ability to play the instrument, but I was actually losing a huge part of who I was. And that was so destabilizing and so disorienting for me, because when you define yourself by the what, then as soon as the what goes away you're like, "Oh my gosh, who the hell am I?" Right? "What do I do? What, what value do I bring to the world?" And what I experienced at the time is known in, uh, cognitive science as identity paralysis. Um, maybe you've felt this way during various transitions in your life, but basically who you are and what you're about is suddenly called into question, and you end up feeling really stuck, right? You, you don't see ... You don't have the courage to imagine what a future could look like. And I certainly fell prey to identity paralysis, and it took me a long time to kind of figure out what my path would look like moving forward, but I learned a really valuable lesson from that very formative experience I had with change about how it is that I should define myself. And for what it's worth, I, I don't think our desire as humans to have identities is going anywhere. We're not gonna be able to dispose of identities, and we shouldn't, because our self-identities bring us so much meaning and purpose in our lives, right? You're a podcaster, I'm a podcaster. You're a scientist, I'm a scientist. These things are actually really helpful and motivating, so we don't want to do away with identities altogether. But what we can be more particular about is what we anchor our identities to, and I have learned in my adult life to anchor my identity to why I do the things I do rather than what I do, and I found this to be a much more durable, reliable relationship. So to make this concrete, let's think about the violin, right? Um, sure, I loved playing, I loved how music sounded, uh, I loved the way the violin felt, um, but when I stripped away all the superficial features of the violin, what I really, really loved and was so drawn to as a young child, um, was the emotional connection that I could form through my music. So that might have been with my orchestra mates, my chamber musician friends, um, playing, uh, solo and, and performing in front of an audience and, and ideally we all feel something new that we haven't felt before. I mean, it's kind of an intoxicating feeling when you're little to have the ability to inspire new feelings in people, right? And I was so drawn to human connection, uh, and when I realized that human connection was at the heart of what it is that drives me as a person, right, like what lights me up every single day is a desire to connect with others, to understand, uh, other people, to understand their psychology, to understand how their minds work, then when the violin was taken away from me, even in terms of the narrative I tell myself about my life, I could still find that same core underlying future elsewhere, and I have been able to, right? I found it, um, as an academic, as a cognitive scientist who studies the science of connection and, and emotion. Um, I've seen it, I've seen that connection play out in the, in the work that I did in public policy when I was at the White House, obviously with my podcast, A Slight Change of Plans, you, you're forming these intimate connections with people every day, and so even though it feels in my life like I've done such disparate things, right, there actually is a powerful through line, um, that connects all of them, and that is my desire to connect emotionally. And so what I would recommend to people who are listening, es- especially if they're in the, they're in the throes of change and they're feeling destabilized by that threat to identity, that loss of identity, is to try to figure out what their through line is, right? Like, what are the underlying features of the things that you used to do that you absolutely loved, and can you find the expression of that elsewhere?

   7. AHAndrew Huberman12:09

      I love that. And

4. 12:10 – 16:58

   Identity & Adolescence; “Essence” & Shame

   1. AHAndrew Huberman12:10

      I have so many questions. Uh, the first one relates back to childhood identities and how we often can project onto children what they're likely to become. Um, I see that as mostly benevolent. You know, you, um, y- you observe a child playing with trucks in the sandbox and, and we say, um, "Oh, you know, they're going to become a contractor." Um, we tend to project, um, roles that are fairly high up the within occupation hierarchy, right?

   2. MSMaya Shankar12:38

      Yeah.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman12:39

      We, we sort of, like any parents, you know, you, you wish for the, the best possible life for your kids. Um, but I can see the, the perils of doing that, um, if then the kid starts to think, "Well, that's what I'm bound to become," because it, it is restrictive. I also am fascinated by the fact that when we are adolescents and teens, there's a tendency to ask questions about identity. Like, "Who am I?"

   4. MSMaya Shankar13:04

      Yeah.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman13:04

      I mean, I don't know many 40-year-olds that say, "Who am I at," you know, "at one's core or one's essence." And we might change careers, change relationships, change geographies, you know, all sorts of things. But there must be something going on in the brain in those adolescent and teen years that forces this question of self, of, you know, "Who am I?" And, uh, teenagers are notorious for trying on different uniforms, different friend groups, different behaviors as a way to sort that out, sometimes in ways that support them and then sometimes in ways that act as pitfalls. Um, so I'm curious about, uh, what's known about how we develop our own identity-

   6. MSMaya Shankar13:44

      Yeah.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman13:45

      ... from the inside out, as well as from the outside in.

   8. MSMaya Shankar13:48

      Yeah. No, it's, uh, tha- that's really interesting and it's also something I'm very curious about. I mean, we know from neuroscience research that there are significant changes that the brain undergoes during puberty and, you know, other periods of adolescence. And, and the primary change that we see is a desire for independence. And so one reason why we see teenagers grappling with this question of who I am is that they're actually breaking from these structures that they grew up around, right? The imposed structures, right? The identity foreclosure that they might have experienced, and are starting to figure out for the first time or wanting to ask the question for the first time, "Who do I want to be? What do I want to do outside of the systems that I've grown up in?" And I think this is one of the primary reasons why we find that during teenage years, um, this, this sort of question is asked more commonly. Um, I think that one challenge that, um, we can, we can face 'cause you, you, you, you said this one word that really caught my attention, which was, "What's my essence?" And, you know, one of the things I studied as a cognitive scientist is the psychology of what's called essentialism. So our underlying belief that there are essential qualities to people that are immutable.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman15:02

      Mm-hmm.

   10. MSMaya Shankar15:02

       And there's lots of studies with, you know, young children and adults showing that we really believe that people do have these essences, right? And unclear what that even means from a (laughs) in, in a metaphysical sense. I don't know what that would even mean. Um, but I think that the challenge in believing that we have essences is that it leads us to believe that there are these truly immutable states about ourselves that are, that we're incapable of changing. And I think this can give rise to feelings of shame, for example. So what is shame? Shame is not the feeling, "Oh, I did something bad." Shame is the feeling, "I am bad," right? It's not that I lost at something, I failed at something, it's that I'm a loser, I'm a failure. And so the problem when we try to figure out the essence piece is that it doesn't give you the kind of malleable way of thinking that actually there might not be something that's so defining about you that you're incapable of changing. As humans, maybe all we are are collections of behaviors and thoughts, right? (laughs) And there's nothing more to it than that. And I find that way of thinking a bit more freeing when it comes to who we are because I think it allows for, I think it allows us to cultivate more of a growth mindset. I think it prevents us from engaging in these very harmful self-narratives that a lot of people tend to have about themselves. I mean, probably a lot of people listening to your podcast are self-critical. (laughs) I'm a very self-critical person. We're, we listen to this because we want to improve. You know, I'm a fan of your show because I want to be better and I want to improve, but that also is often accompanied by a lot of self-berating and questioning of self, right? And so, um, yeah, I think I've just tried to have a slightly more capacious understanding of, of who I am and also recognizing that there might not really be these essential features that are, that are immutable. I don't know if you resonate with this notion of like the essen- like the desire to feel that we have essences.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman16:53

       Yeah. I, I used the word essence without thinking, um, too carefully about exactly what I meant.

5. 16:58 – 23:00

   Delight & Awe

   1. AHAndrew Huberman16:58

      But what I, what I, uh, what I am trying to say when I said essence, um, is, you know, as a child, uh, I did certain things and I enjoyed some of them and didn't enjoy others, and I really disliked others.

   2. MSMaya Shankar17:13

      Mm-hmm.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman17:13

      Um, uh, a very famous neuroscientist who's at Caltech named Marcus Meister, people literally refer to him as the great Marcus Meister, once said, and I totally subscribe to the fact that neural circuits in the brain, uh, basically divide our sensory experience along the dimensions of yum, yuck, and meh. There's not a lot of in between.

   4. MSMaya Shankar17:32

      Yeah.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman17:32

      Right? Because the circuits ultimately have to drive either forward movement toward more, right?

   6. MSMaya Shankar17:38

      Yeah.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman17:38

      Um, appetitive behaviors as, in nerd speak, or aversive, you know, leaning out, "I don't want that," or just kind of a, a neutral response. So yum, yuck, and meh-

   8. MSMaya Shankar17:47

      Yeah.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman17:48

      ... seems to be the, um, the trinary, uh, response. And there is this component of childhood, I think, where we are foraging naturally using our senses, dev- uh, experiencing yum, yucks, and mehs.

   10. MSMaya Shankar18:02

       Mm-hmm.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman18:03

       And hearing yum, yucks, and mehs from our parents, "That's good, that's bad, that's whatever, it's neutral." But at some point...... I certainly have had the experience, and I've observed others, I think, having the experience of feeling something that's on a different dimension entirely, which is this notion of delight.

   12. MSMaya Shankar18:22

       Mm-hmm.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman18:22

       Which is that it- it sort of fills your body with a sense of so much y- yum that it gives you energy to do so much more of it in a way that- that is, um, almost on a different plane, and- and I'm not trying to be, you know, spiritual or metaphysical about it.

   14. MSMaya Shankar18:37

       (laughs) .

   15. AHAndrew Huberman18:37

       But it feels distinctly different, and I don't know what it represents, but I think that's that, um, that piece that perhaps even as a scientist I don't really-

   16. MSMaya Shankar18:46

       Yeah.

   17. AHAndrew Huberman18:46

       ... need to assign a neural circuit to.

   18. MSMaya Shankar18:48

       Sure.

   19. AHAndrew Huberman18:48

       Um, so-

   20. MSMaya Shankar18:49

       Do you think what you're describing in part is the feeling of awe? Like, when you talk about delight, do you think part of it is- is a feeling of awe?

   21. AHAndrew Huberman18:56

       Yeah, like the first time I went to New York City as a six-year-old kid, I remember thinking, and I still feel every time I'm there, "I can't believe this place exists."

   22. MSMaya Shankar19:03

       Mm-hmm.

   23. AHAndrew Huberman19:03

       It's like a- it's like a human tropical reef, like-

   24. MSMaya Shankar19:06

       Yeah.

   25. AHAndrew Huberman19:06

       ... everywhere you look there's life.

   26. MSMaya Shankar19:08

       Yeah.

   27. AHAndrew Huberman19:08

       So that was- that was awe and delight, although I saw some things... This was New York in the '70s.

   28. MSMaya Shankar19:13

       (laughs)

   29. AHAndrew Huberman19:13

       And there were some things like Times Square in the '70s-

   30. MSMaya Shankar19:15

       Sure.
6. 23:00 – 29:28

   Delight & Possibilities for Self

   1. AHAndrew Huberman23:00

      Yeah, I'm so glad you- you described it that way. You know, um, this i- isn't a discussion about my experience, but for me, I realize now that New York was awe-inspiring.

   2. MSMaya Shankar23:11

      Mm-hmm.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman23:11

      Um, prior to that, the only thing similar was discovering animal specialization, something I'm still fascinated by. The sensory systems of animals and how they experience the world, and how humans experience the world, and then ultimately it was... Well, then I went into skateboarding and that whole landscape and then eventually into, uh, neuroscience.

   4. MSMaya Shankar23:30

      Yeah.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman23:31

      The difference between the New York experience of awe, and I do think that that's what it was, and biology, animals, and eventually neuroscience-

   6. MSMaya Shankar23:39

      Yeah.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman23:40

      ... is that like your experience with music and realizing that the movement of a note could change something fundamentally, when it came to learning about biology and neuroscience, I felt not just awe but a sense of delight in that I felt there was a place for me there.

   8. MSMaya Shankar23:57

      Yes. Yes.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman23:58

      And what- and what came out of what you just described really- really, um, resonated in terms of this moving of a note because it took something from a passive experience, I believe, of that's this incredible thing over there, like New York City was awe, but I didn't see myself having any kind of, um, verb state within it that would change it or alter it f-... in how, how it is or for me. Whereas with music for you or, I think, neuroscience, when I realized that you could do experiments, you could actually do some sort of manipulation and through that hopefully unveil something fundamental about how the brain works, I thought, "There's a place for me here."

   10. MSMaya Shankar24:35

       Yeah.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman24:36

       And so I think there's something about the, uh, the experience of something, just from a raw sensory perspective, music, or animals, or neuroscience, in the examples we're using here, but then realizing that there's a verb state of self, like that I could enact something within it that could give me more of that. Whereas I think when, as a young kid in New York City, I, I just didn't feel any way that I could plug into it except in a passive way.

   12. MSMaya Shankar25:00

       Yeah.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman25:00

       Because it's the difference between a kid who, and this wouldn't have been me, who sees a game of soccer or football or baseball, or watches the Olympics and goes, "That is amazing."

   14. MSMaya Shankar25:08

       Mm-hmm.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman25:09

       And the kid that, that says, "I'm gonna go do that."

   16. MSMaya Shankar25:12

       Yes.

   17. AHAndrew Huberman25:12

       "In fact, I could do that, and I could maybe do that even better or even half as well." And so, um, the delight I think is in the possibility of, of engagement, of en- ... And, and I'm fascinated, you know, a friend of mine who's a trauma therapist, he doesn't... he's not a neuroscientist, he always says, "You know, nouns are just very slow verbs. But verbs are far more exciting because they create this anticipatory activity." Anyway, um-

   18. MSMaya Shankar25:35

       No, I lo- I love... Before you move on from that, I love that you said that because you're helping me realize something really important about how I saw my role as a violinist and in addit- you know, I, I'm never gonna modify the notes on the page, because obviously I'm gonna be faithful to what Beethoven wrote.

   19. AHAndrew Huberman25:51

       This is what made you a great musician and me a f-

   20. MSMaya Shankar25:53

       (laughs)

   21. AHAndrew Huberman25:53

       By the way, I was a failed violinist.

   22. MSMaya Shankar25:54

       (laughs)

   23. AHAndrew Huberman25:55

       They pulled me out of it because the neighbor's dogs howled.

   24. MSMaya Shankar25:58

       (laughs)

   25. AHAndrew Huberman25:59

       I, I was in Suzuki method.

   26. MSMaya Shankar26:00

       (laughs) I was in Suzuki too, yeah.

   27. AHAndrew Huberman26:01

       I was so terrible at it that they literally made me stop playing music.

   28. MSMaya Shankar26:05

       (laughs)

   29. AHAndrew Huberman26:05

       Just to, just to protect the neighborhood.

   30. MSMaya Shankar26:06

       That's adorable.
7. 29:28 – 34:54

   Playing Violin, Childhood

   1. AHAndrew Huberman29:28

      Um, I'd like to talk more about the violin.

   2. MSMaya Shankar29:30

      Yeah.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman29:31

      Um, not just 'cause I failed miserably at the violin.

   4. MSMaya Shankar29:33

      (laughs)

   5. AHAndrew Huberman29:33

      But actually I figured out pretty early on I wasn't going to be a musician. Um, I still have absolutely no ability to read music. I can memorize lyrics very easily, but ... And I love music, um, and I love classical music, um, as well as other forms of music, but zero musical talent. You, on the other hand, um, got quite good at violin. Um, it was interesting for me to learn that the violin was a bit of a rebellious choice for you given your, your family history. And you and I do both share this-

   6. MSMaya Shankar30:03

      (laughs)

   7. AHAndrew Huberman30:03

      ... um, s- ... A fairly unusual, uh, fact that both of our fathers are theoretical physicists. So did you feel pressured to be a scientist or something else? And being a musician, um, was that initially looked at as, uh, you know, a route to poverty or-

   8. MSMaya Shankar30:17

      (laughs)

   9. AHAndrew Huberman30:18

      ... or, or a bad choice? Or were your parents a bit more cautious, like, "Oh, okay, that, that's great, but maybe make that a supplement to your other studies and pursuits?"

   10. MSMaya Shankar30:26

       Yeah, so I'm the youngest of four kids, and kind of stereotypically my three older siblings were total math whizzes. They were, (laughs) you know, taking the SAT when they were, when they were very young 'cause they were so talented. Um, but I think one antagonist to some of those cultural forces is that my mom, when she had grown up in India, had felt very stifled by her environment. Like, as a young woman who was very capable and very smart, I mean, she majored in physics, um, she was mostly...... uh, you know, kept to the spaces of domestic chores, occasional singing lessons, um, but mostly her job was, like, do your homework and then help with cooking, right, and cleaning and whatnot. And so when she moved to this country with my dad in the 1970s, um, she was actually very excited. She was 21 years old, by the way. So long story short, she'd met my dad 20 days prior (laughs) to their getting married.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman31:18

       Wow.

   12. MSMaya Shankar31:18

       So it was an arranged meeting, and, um, my dad is, uh, doing, uh, his postdoc at Harvard in, in physics at the Society of Fellows, and my mom just joins him after winter break, uh, in the dorm. And everyone's like, "Hey, man, how was your break?" And there's like, "I went snowboarding," and "I went," whatever, "to, to, to Tahoe." And my dad's like, "I got married." (laughs) And so, uh, this new couple arrives, and my mom was so lonely in this country. I mean, this was before you could text your parents overseas or use a WhatsApp group. So sh- she could only hand-write letters to her family back home. And her, her goal was, "You know what? I'm going to create a little army around me in the form of children." So she had four kids, and she was absolutely intent on exposing us to as many extracurricular activities as she could. So I have two older brothers, and I have an older sister. Especially her girls. She said, "You can do whatever you want. I'm giving you, you know, lay of the land when you're young, but when you find something that you're passionate about, I really want to give you the opportunity to explore it." So I think I really benefited from the fact that she had been denied that kind of exposure.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman32:22

       Mm-hmm.

   14. MSMaya Shankar32:22

       And the ability to pursue her, her dreams, artistic or otherwise, and so she was really hellbent on making sure, uh, that we kids were able to. I think they were... I mean, my older three siblings played musical instruments, so like clarinet, trumpet, flute. I think they were surprised by my affinity for it, because when I was six, my mom brought down my grandmother's violin from the attic. So my grandmother had played Indian classical music, so that's where you actually were sitting cross-legged on the floor and your violin's facing the ground. It's a very ver- different style of music. Um, but as, like, a parting gift, my grandmother had given it to my mom and said, "Hey, bring this with you to the US." So she opened the instrument that day, and I just instantly fell in love with it. And, um, I asked very quickly for a quarter-sized violin of my own, and while my parents had to nudge me to do all sorts of things, they really never had to push me to practice, which felt extraordinary at the time. Like, okay, clearly the violin is something that Maya has intrinsic motivation for.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman33:18

       Mm-hmm.

   16. MSMaya Shankar33:18

       Because how is it that we're not asking her to (laughs) have to practice all the time? Um, similar to you, actually, Andrew, I never... To this day, I have a really hard time reading music. So I never... I was a terrible sight reader. I s- I couldn't... If you put a piece of music in front of me, I would not be able to tell you probably what it would sound like today. I learned entirely by ear. So I started with the Suzuki method, which, as you know, is entirely by ear, and then, um, I had an extremely, (laughs) very kind also, but very inexperienced teacher. I was his first student. Uh, my mom went backstage at a symphony concert in New Haven, which is where I grew up, and just asked the concertmaster, like, "Hey, will you teach my daughter?" And he's like, "Sure. Never taught anyone before, but I'll give this a go." And so we just made things up along the way. I mean, he would play stuff, and I would mimic it, and I would let my emotions and my, in- you know, whatever innate musicality guide me, and, uh, eventually, I mean, I think what that did actually is really interesting from a skill-building perspective. My technique absolutely suffered in the long term from not having a more structured approach. But I was able to fall in love with this endeavor much more quickly than other kids who had drill sergeants that were forcing them to, like, practice their scales every day and practice etudes. I mean, that stuff is so boring, right? And when you're a little kid, you just want to bang your head against the wall when you're put up against that, when there's so much, (laughs) so many barriers to actually enjoying the g- the fun part, which are actually playing the pieces. So the one kind of fun aside about my musical journey is I got to jump straight to the fun stuff, and I think that helped me cultivate a much more natural love of, of the instrument.

8. 34:54 – 35:58

   Sponsor: AG1

   1. MSMaya Shankar34:54

   2. AHAndrew Huberman34:54

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9. 35:58 – 45:43

   Intrinsic Motivation; Juilliard & Courage

   1. AHAndrew Huberman35:58

      The intrinsic motivation part is so key. I've talked a few times before on the podcast about this, I think now famous, study that was done at, um, Bing Nursery School at Stanford, where they observed what kids did during free time and then they rewarded them or didn't reward them and then they later removed the rewards, and the essential takeaway is that, uh, receiving rewards for something that a child was initially intrinsically motivated to do undermined some of that intrinsic motivation. So I have to wonder whether or not, um, the fact that your parents neither encouraged nor discouraged your violin playing might have allowed you to fully express and, and lean in to your intrinsic motivation, as opposed to, uh, for instance, in my case, um, there is... Uh, we are distantly related, not closely related, but there is, uh, a great violinist by the name of Bronislav Huberman who has a street named after him in Israel. Uh...

   2. MSMaya Shankar36:47

      Wow.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman36:47

      There's a famous picture of him and Einstein playing violin together, and I was told about that early on, and when I failed to play well-... after a couple of practices. I was convinced that there was no way I was gonna live up to it.

   4. MSMaya Shankar36:59

      (laughs)

   5. AHAndrew Huberman36:59

      And I quit.

   6. MSMaya Shankar37:00

      That's a high bar, man. (laughs)

   7. AHAndrew Huberman37:01

      It's a high bar. It's a high bar.

   8. MSMaya Shankar37:02

      I didn't have any such role models that I was trying to be like in my family.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman37:05

      Turns out ... Yeah, it turns out I'm n-

   10. MSMaya Shankar37:06

       (laughs)

   11. AHAndrew Huberman37:06

       But exactly. And so I think that there's actually more opportunity in, um, in kids leaning into, or and adults probably, leaning into the sensory experience of what they're doing and not putting that up against some benchmark. You know, I worry about that today so much with social media and with video games, where in a video game or on social media, you can see something being done at the very highest level, often by, uh, someone quite young or early in their career, to the point where it can be a little bit overwhelming. And I think it ... Then we start measuring ourselves against, you know, metrics that are not about the, the experience. Um, that said, um, your parents, whatever they did, it worked out well enough that you became very proficient, right? You succeeded in getting into Julliard, which is, at least from my understanding, is the, the most competitive, um, music preparatory. Is that how you refer to it?

   12. MSMaya Shankar37:59

       Yeah.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman37:59

       Um, that one can possibly go to. Um, and so at that point, had your identity merged with the behavior, and were you still enjoying yourself up until the point where you had this injury that we'll also talk about?

   14. MSMaya Shankar38:13

       Yeah, I was still enjoying myself, um, around the time when I, when I auditioned for Julliard, in particular because of exactly what you said, which was everything was kind of beating my expectations and my parents' (laughs) expectations up until this point, right, which is that we didn't really have any.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman38:28

       Right.

   16. MSMaya Shankar38:28

       And so it all just felt like icing on the cake. Wow, our kids found something that they really love. Um, this is great, right? It can sometimes take you-

   17. AHAndrew Huberman38:37

       Mm-hmm.

   18. MSMaya Shankar38:37

       ... years, decades to figure out what it is that you love, what you're passionate about, and I think we go through this renewal process often in our lives, right? I've had to have moments in life where I'm like, "What do I like again? What do I love again?" And so it's not also a one-time experience. Um, but there was... There, it was kind of there was a thrilling aspect to my musical life when I was young, which is, again, everything kind of felt just like bonus. Um, so once... One story I love sharing is about how I even got into Julliard in the first place. Um, my parents ... You know, so my dad's a theoretical physicist, phys- physicist, as you mentioned. My mom helps immigrants get green cards to study in this country. Neither of them had exposure to the classical music sphere, right? So they're like the opposite of tiger parents. Like, even if they wanted to be tiger parents, they wouldn't know how to be tiger (laughs) parents in this domain because they lack the connections, uh, and, like, the wherewithal to figure out what it would mean to, to, to go pro and, and to access the best teachers or whatever. So my mom, who is a very fearless person by nature, she knew that at some point, my passion for the violin was surpassing her ability to, like, connect me with the right resources. And so one weekend, we were in New York, awe-inspiring New York, and I had my violin with me 'cause I had another audition, and we were just walking by Julliard, the building. And my mom was just eager for me to see it from the outside because it's just really cool as a kid, right? It's like, all your musical idols went to this place. I just wanted to see it and, like, imagine what it would've been like for Perlman to go in and out and Midori to go in and out and Yo-Yo Ma, right? Like, it was so exciting. And as we're passing the entrance, my mom looks at me and says, um, "Hey, why don't we just go in?" And I was like, "What are you talking about?" Um, she's like, "Let's just go in. Let's ... Th- there ... What's the worst thing that can happen?" And I'm like, "Um, security guards and, like, a lot of other terrible things, Mom," right? (laughs) Um, but I had a youthful enthusiasm that, like, propelled me into the building that day. She strikes up a conversation with a fellow student and her mom, finds out that she's studying with, like, a top teacher at Julliard, uh, asks if we can get an introduction. Within an hour, I'm auditioning for this teacher on the spot, right? No idea that this was gonna happen.

   19. AHAndrew Huberman40:43

       Wild.

   20. MSMaya Shankar40:44

       Um, yeah. He tells me, uh ... (laughs) He has what I refer to as a, like, muted enthusiasm about my playing, doesn't think I'm great, but sees something. Like, he told me later he liked my personality and my enthusiasm, so I got the personality card coming out of that music audition. Great. Um, and what he did is he said, "Look, I'm with you. I don't think that you're ready. You would not get into Julliard if you audition today. However, I take resonance at a summer music program in Colorado. If you come there for five weeks, we can do an intense boot camp where I try to skill you up and get you to learn, like, your first scale and your first etude, which you will need to pass the Julliard audition, and also maybe hopefully get you to, like, read music a little bit better than you can right now." And I went to that summer camp, and I worked my butt off. I mean, you're also in this in- incredibly intensive environment where everyone your age is there, and they're all practicing, like, their age equivalent, right?

   21. AHAndrew Huberman41:40

       Mm-hmm.

   22. MSMaya Shankar41:41

       Um, and so I felt very inspired by that, and I ended up getting into Julliard in the fall, and it was such a wonderful reminder that, you know, when opportunities are not served on a silver platter for you, you just have to have this kind of imaginative courage and what my mom had that day, right, to figure out a path from point A to point B. She really just, like, created a plate for me and said, like, "Okay, like, you're prepared for this thing. We're gonna get you in front of this teacher," and that's a lesson I've used time and time again. When I felt like there was something cool I could be doing, the opportunity did not exist, um, so for example, when I was in the White House, the, the job that I wanted, which was, uh, to be a practitioner of behavioral science, did not exist. And so I sent cold emails, and I pitched them on the idea of creating a new position for a behavioral science advisor, and then I said, "Hey, by the way, if you create this position, could you, like, also consider hiring me (laughs) to play that job, even though I've had no public policy experience and I've been an academic, uh, for the entirety of my adult life?" And, you know, they said yes. And so it's, it's just ... It, it was such an energizing lesson to learn as a young kid, which is, like, you can do the cold call. Oftentimes, there's few consequences. You'll just get rejected. I mean, that's truly the worst thing that's gonna happen. But it's one thing to be told that. It's another thing to have lived the experience out and to see how amazing, uh, the aftermath can be, and that's the ... That's what I got to experience as a young kid, so.

   23. AHAndrew Huberman43:07

       ... amazing. And, um, so let's all express some thanks to your mom for-

   24. MSMaya Shankar43:11

       (laughs)

   25. AHAndrew Huberman43:11

       ... for barging in the door.

   26. MSMaya Shankar43:13

       Thanks, Mom. I know. (laughs)

   27. AHAndrew Huberman43:13

       Um, and to you, because you also had the agency to, to do the audition on the spot. I think a lot of kids and adults would have thought, you know, "I'm not ready. I'm not going to do this." But it, it takes a, um, certain gumption to just do it, right?

   28. MSMaya Shankar43:27

       Yeah.

   29. AHAndrew Huberman43:27

       And, and also to integrate the feedback, and then I'm curious about this camp.

   30. MSMaya Shankar43:32

       Yeah.
10. 45:43 – 53:46

    Competitive Environments; Curiosity & Growth

    1. AHAndrew Huberman45:43

       think a lot of kids feel that way.

    2. MSMaya Shankar45:44

       Yeah.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman45:45

       Where we're, I think, at that age, and this sometimes extends into adulthood, um, e- we have this tendency to try and find benchmarks of where we are.

    4. MSMaya Shankar45:54

       Yeah.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman45:54

       You know, and, and sometimes that spell, you know, turns into a hierarchical thing, sometimes very lateralized, but trying to figure out where you are in the landscape of things is, it just seems like it's kind of fundamental to the teenage experience, even though at the end-

    6. MSMaya Shankar46:07

       Yeah, and your universe shrinks too, right?

    7. AHAndrew Huberman46:09

       Mm-hmm.

    8. MSMaya Shankar46:09

       So, like, you're no longer getting access to what the average kid violinist sounds like. I mean, you're in the elite of the elite, and so it's so intimidating, and I often felt, I felt like what happened is, especially when I became a teenager, so two things happened when I became a teenager. The first is that my violin life just started to speed forward. So, um, Itzhak Perlman invited me to be his private violin student, you know, considered the best violinist in the world. It was, uh, s- an incredible experience. I felt so overwhelmed even by the opportunity. I'd also stumbled upon MTV and was like, "Do I even want to do classical music?" Like, Britney Spears is doing much cooler things. So that, that was my version of, like, teenage rebellion was coming (laughs) home from school and when I should've been practicing, watching MTV. Um, but the other thing that happened is I went through the natural teenage process, which is I became very self-conscious. Um, I became more insecure. I was trying to figure out who I was, who I am, and I think that was the period of my life, my, my high school years, when I was the least happy as a violinist. So I described to you earlier that incredibly awe-inspiring experience of listening to v- the Beethoven violin concerto and it feeling otherworldly and feeling like I could see a world beyond my own personal wants and needs and desires, right? It really made me feel small against the backdrop of this magnificent world, and I liked that feeling of smallness. And when I was in my teenage years, you know, we're all in this highly narcissistic state of mind. We're, like, consumed with (laughs) ourselves and how we feel, and I just, I just felt like I gave some of my worst performances when I was a teenager, and I often found, to your point about, um, you know, these pressure cooker environments, my best performances was, were actually just to the public. My worst performances were when I was in my little studio having to play for my peers. Like, that just sapped all the joy out for me, because I was, yeah, just, like, really tough on myself, and I, I lost... That was a period of time where I lost touch with what it is that I loved about music, and, um, of course, there's an ebb and flow. I had magical experiences playing the violin when I was a high schooler, but I just think if you were to do, like, the average of joy, like, pre-12 and then post-12, the average joy was much higher, uh, before I became a teenager.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman48:27

       Yeah, there's, there's so many things to extrapolate from that. I, I really feel that when we get into a mode of trying to, um, hit milestones that are extrinsic that it really can undermine our, our love of-

    10. MSMaya Shankar48:40

        Yeah.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman48:40

        ... of what we're doing, but that if we keep going and we can reframe what those external rewards are, in, in part by just realizing that they're so transient compared to the, the delight that we can experience. What I mean is that I don't think of delight as something that, that wells up in us and then, and then dissipates. I think of it as something that changes our nervous system in a way that gives us access to new abilities. I really do. I mean, being a faculty member at Stanford, you know, you look to your left, you look to your right, and it's like, I... Literally in the building I'm in, I've got a Nobel Prize winner below me.

    12. MSMaya Shankar49:11

        (laughs) Oh, geez.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman49:11

        Like, the people by... You have MacArthur Award winners-

    14. MSMaya Shankar49:13

        (laughs)

    15. AHAndrew Huberman49:13

        ... all over the place, like, everywhere you turn, and these people do other things too. So, like, you know, oh, no, also D1 athletes and they've got five kids and all their kids seem to be doing great. You know, like, who are these people? And it becomes very important.... in that environment to, um, to just shrink your spirits, like, what's, you know, one foot in front of you-

    16. MSMaya Shankar49:31

        Yeah.

    17. AHAndrew Huberman49:31

        ... and just keep going and not pay attention. But it's hard to do, not by way of comparison and 'cause I actually get excited about being im- immersed in a group where everyone's doing well. I do think being among all these other incredibly talented and driven, um... Although you, you carefully said, and importantly said rather-

    18. MSMaya Shankar49:48

        Yeah.

    19. AHAndrew Huberman49:48

        ... that you did not see yourself as talented. It's very clear that you have a ton of grit and, and hard work clearly went into it.

    20. MSMaya Shankar49:54

        Mm-hmm.

    21. AHAndrew Huberman49:54

        I think that word talent can be a little bit misleading. So, um, we want to un- underscore the fact that you've worked incredibly hard. Um, but I think that i- it's a tough thing, you know. It, it's hard for us to develop much in isolation, and it's also hard for us to, um, stay connected to the source-

    22. MSMaya Shankar50:11

        Yes, the source.

    23. AHAndrew Huberman50:11

        ... uh, as it were.

    24. MSMaya Shankar50:12

        Exactly.

    25. AHAndrew Huberman50:12

        And that's a word that I stole from, uh, a former guest on this podcast and, and a good friend of mine who's, um, the great Rick Rubin-

    26. MSMaya Shankar50:18

        Mm-hmm.

    27. AHAndrew Huberman50:18

        ... one of the most successful music-

    28. MSMaya Shankar50:19

        Yeah.

    29. AHAndrew Huberman50:19

        ... producers, rock and roll music producers of all time.

    30. MSMaya Shankar50:21

        I love that interview. (laughs)
11. 53:46 – 1:00:51

    Re-Creating of Self

    1. MSMaya Shankar53:46

    2. AHAndrew Huberman53:46

       Um, and, and that actually brings me to, uh, a very important component of your work and, and your life arc, which is, uh, this notion of, uh, re- recreating and re-finding identity-

    3. MSMaya Shankar54:00

       Mm-hmm.

    4. AHAndrew Huberman54:00

       ... in new endeavors. So, uh, if I understand, uh, correctly, and hopefully you'll embellish on this, um, you had the unfortunate, perhaps un- unfortunate, right?

    5. MSMaya Shankar54:10

       Yeah.

    6. AHAndrew Huberman54:10

       ... um, experience of playing the violin and then injuring your finger very badly to the point where it was, at least for your music career, career-ending.

    7. MSMaya Shankar54:19

       Absolutely.

    8. AHAndrew Huberman54:20

       And that happened when you were how old?

    9. MSMaya Shankar54:23

       I was 15.

    10. AHAndrew Huberman54:24

        So given how much of your identity and, and energy was, uh, put into violin, that- that must've been devastating. Uh, and yet you've obviously, um, I don't want to say recreated yourself because I like the idea that this essence within you, um, has many opportunities and forms, and I like it as an example for everybody having some essence of many things that could give them delight, um, and that it's something about the feelings associated with a given choice of occupation or hobby or behavior or perhaps relationship, right? Relationships end sometimes by decision, death, or otherwise, you know?

    11. MSMaya Shankar55:01

        Yeah.

    12. AHAndrew Huberman55:01

        And people are devastated. Their identities are completely, at least in their minds, obliterated. And then people have this amazing ability to recreate themselves in new circumstances. So if you could take us back to the time when you, you were 15, you have this injury, what was your initial mindset in the days and weeks after that?

    13. MSMaya Shankar55:20

        Yeah.

    14. AHAndrew Huberman55:20

        And then if you would, could you link that up to some of the what I see as incredibly important work that you've done, helping people understand not just who they are but how to-... identify the components of who they are that are, that are truly indomitable.

    15. MSMaya Shankar55:36

        Mm-hmm.

    16. AHAndrew Huberman55:36

        That they, they just cannot go away.

    17. MSMaya Shankar55:38

        Yeah.

    18. AHAndrew Huberman55:39

        Like your drive for curiosity-

    19. MSMaya Shankar55:41

        Yeah.

    20. AHAndrew Huberman55:41

        ... and, and hard work.

    21. MSMaya Shankar55:42

        And human connection, yep. Um, yeah, in the, in the days and weeks and months and year (laughs) after, uh, I felt terrible. It was awful, because, um, I don't... I think in my case also you just, when you're a kid who's really, like, bubbly and energetic, you just kind of move forward and you don't always think about how identity-defining the thing you're doing is. You just do it. And so, it's, it was really interesting, I think in losing the violin, that's actually when it became so salient to me how much the instrument had meant to me a- and had to find who I was. And so, I, I felt a dampening of some of my more organic traits, like I was less curious for a long time. Uh-

    22. AHAndrew Huberman56:27

        Could I-

    23. MSMaya Shankar56:27

        Yeah.

    24. AHAndrew Huberman56:27

        I'm gonna interrupt you on purpose.

    25. MSMaya Shankar56:29

        Yeah.

    26. AHAndrew Huberman56:29

        I apologize, but at the same time, uh, I'm not apologizing 'cause there was something that you said-

    27. MSMaya Shankar56:33

        Mm-hmm.

    28. AHAndrew Huberman56:33

        ... in a prior discussion that just keeps ringing in my mind-

    29. MSMaya Shankar56:36

        Yeah.

    30. AHAndrew Huberman56:36

        ... which is that your body and your nervous system actually grew up around the violin.
12. 1:00:51 – 1:05:25

    Pop-Science, Science Accessibility

    1. MSMaya Shankar1:00:51

       similar to you, Andrew, I love that we have this connection, you said when you learned about, like, neurobiology and neuroscience, you, you saw that there was a place for yourself in there. And I remember reading this book, and because it was b- a pop science book, and I love pop science books 'cause sometimes, you know, even if they don't fully do justice to the science, they can take someone who's never had any exposure to the subject matter, and it's, it's thrilling to learn about the thing, right? I would never have gotten the same experience had I opened up an introduction to cognitive science textbook, okay? It would not have had the same impact on me. So, like, shout out to pop science-

    2. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:23

       Yeah.

    3. MSMaya Shankar1:01:23

       ... books everywhere. (laughs)

    4. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:24

       Thank you for saying that.

    5. MSMaya Shankar1:01:25

       (laughs)

    6. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:25

       And, uh, you know, and here I'll just, uh, thank you because I think that many of my colleagues in academic science at Stanford and elsewhere feel that way, but I think many don't. They think of it as, quote, "dumbing down" of things, but I'll tell you, um-Rarely, if ever, does somebody just wander into a university classroom and hear a lecture on accident.

    7. MSMaya Shankar1:01:44

       (laughs) Absolutely.

    8. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:44

       I mean, maybe if your mom was at the-

    9. MSMaya Shankar1:01:46

       (laughs)

    10. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:46

        ... at the helm-

    11. MSMaya Shankar1:01:46

        She would've gotten in.

    12. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:47

        ... they all would.

    13. MSMaya Shankar1:01:47

        (laughs)

    14. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:47

        So moms everywhere, barge right in. Um, but, but I think it's, um, I actually, I'll, I'll go a step further and I'll, I'll, I'll, uh, do this so that you don't have to, and that these are not your words, these are mine. I think that there's actually a, a pretty intense arrogance to the idea within the, um, established scientific community that pop science books, while they might not be exhaustive, provided they're accurate and they're making an attempt to educate and draw people in from all sectors.

    15. MSMaya Shankar1:02:17

        Yeah.

    16. AHAndrew Huberman1:02:18

        Like, amen to that. I just can't hear a counterargument in my head or elsewhere-

    17. MSMaya Shankar1:02:22

        Yeah.

    18. AHAndrew Huberman1:02:22

        ... where that's not one of the best things that, uh, people can do. So, um, regardless o- of, uh, you know, people's motivations for picking them up in the first place, I mean, they brought a lot of people into the, the curiosity and delight that is science or music or... You know, I think that we, the more s- um, positive, benevolent, you know, safe sensory experiences that we can expose young people to, the greater probability that we're going to flesh out those professions with the greatest number of diverse minds who are going to have the best ideas.

    19. MSMaya Shankar1:02:56

        Mm-hmm.

    20. AHAndrew Huberman1:02:57

        I mean, it's really, I, I think that there's a ton of foresight in what, in what you're describing, that, you know, picking up a book is now what you're also now a PhD in, I mean, in cognitive science.

    21. MSMaya Shankar1:03:08

        Yeah.

    22. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:08

        And you did your postdoc at Stanford. I mean, you're a scientist.

    23. MSMaya Shankar1:03:10

        Mm-hmm.

    24. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:11

        Um, presumably because you went into the bookshelf and picked up that book.

    25. MSMaya Shankar1:03:15

        Yes, 100%. And I, and I think it was, it was also role modeled for me because my dad, despite being in a very, very technical field, spent a large part of his career actually working on the translation of complex subjects and trying to convey them to general audiences. And I loved witnessing this 'cause it's like, if you can figure out a way to communicate about theoretical physics, physics to a general audience, I mean, wow, that's a masterful pursuit, right?

    26. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:42

        Well, Feynman, Richard Feynman.

    27. MSMaya Shankar1:03:43

        Yeah, Richard Feynman, exactly, and so-

    28. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:45

        No one really knows what Feynman did for his Nobel Prize work except physicists. You know that most people, you ask them, "What, what was Feynman's Nobel for?"

    29. MSMaya Shankar1:03:52

        (laughs)

    30. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:52

        And they're like, "I don't know."
13. 1:05:25 – 1:06:32

    Sponsor: InsideTracker

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:05:25

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14. 1:06:32 – 1:13:20

    Passions & Curiosity

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:06:32

       So I want to, um, go back to this injury to summer at home to discovery of something new.

    2. MSMaya Shankar1:06:39

       Yeah.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:06:40

       Uh, was it at that point that you realized, ah, the feeling of excitement that I'm getting from learning about neurolinguistics and related topics is somehow similar to the excitement that I was feeling about the violin, or maybe even superseded that excitement? I mean, at what point did, were you able to make the pivot, uh, with confidence that, you know, this, this is the new trajectory?

    4. MSMaya Shankar1:07:05

       Yeah.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:07:05

       And, and an important, um, component of that that I'd like to understand is you also had to cut ties with the past, something that's very hard to do. I mean, I grew up with a number of kids who became very successful teen athletes, really, and some of them, once they ceased to keep up or they had an injury or something, their identity stayed attached to the past in a way that did not allow them to move forward. Fortunately, many of them, um, did find new identities in business or in other endeavors. Um, some became quite successful, but I've s- I've s- seen very often that when people achieve early success-

    6. MSMaya Shankar1:07:44

       Mm-hmm.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:07:44

       ... and then they hit a cliff-... that it's very hard for them to part with that former identity. Uh, that is one of the perils of early success.

    8. MSMaya Shankar1:07:52

       Yeah.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:07:53

       Yeah.

    10. MSMaya Shankar1:07:54

        Yeah. Um, I wouldn't say that it superseded the excitement that I had with the violin. I would say the quality of the excitement felt very different, and that's actually important to convey, 'cause I think when someone loses the ability to have a passion, they're seeking exactly the same sensory experience, exactly the same high that they experienced the first time around, and I think that's a really high bar, and sometimes it's more of an apples and oranges type situation. So with the violin, there was a really deep sensory aspect to the experience. I mean, I, I felt things, right? You're playing, and then you're feeling things emotionally, and it, it all felt super visceral, and that was where the passion emerged from. It was just this, like, very visceral feeling of, like, "This is so beautiful and awesome, and I love it." With the cognitive science stuff, my, my intellectual brain was delighted, and it, it's just like a different expression of passion, right? I, I think the big pressure test was not... If I had held myself to the bar of, "Do I love this as much as the violin?" there's no way that I would've been confident enough to pursue anything at that point. So instead, I, I really think the question I asked myself at that time, which was a service to me in, in my more compromised psychology, was, "Am I curious enough about this thing to ask more questions about it?"

    11. AHAndrew Huberman1:09:13

        Mm-hmm.

    12. MSMaya Shankar1:09:13

        "Do I want to learn more?" And I found naturally, three days later, I went to the, uh, library, and I got another book (laughs) on the cognitive science of language, and then I got a book on the science of decision-making. So I was... There was c- curiosity, and honestly, that was all I needed. That was the little seedling that I needed to see if it could go somewhere more. Um, I took that as a very strong signal. Like, I-

    13. AHAndrew Huberman1:09:41

        Mm-hmm.

    14. MSMaya Shankar1:09:41

        ... care to learn more about this, and I don't care to learn about everything, right? And, um, I remember perusing the course book, um, of my, of my undergrad institution, and they had a cognitive science major, which was awesome, because not all schools had one at the time. It was a very new major. It's interdisciplinary. You approach c- questions of the mind from multiple perspectives, so, um, from the perspective of neuroscience, linguistics, philosophy, psychology, um, computer science, um, and anthropology, right? So, you're just, like, a bunch of different disciplines, and... But that was when I thought, "Ooh, I can at least see if I can get into this major." I remember it was, like, a selective maj- uh, i- selective, and so I freaked out, of course, and had super imposter syndrome. It was like, "I'm not gonna get in (laughs) to the program." Uh, but thankfully, I got in, and I think that's, yeah, that's where I was able to connect, like, this little seedling of curiosity to, um, to the actual pursuit of the thing, right? And, and that's a really important translation, because there can often be a mismatch. You're really passionate about something, but you actually hate the process, right? Like, you hate the actual work that's involved in getting better at it. And I was lucky in my undergrad, because I fought my way, my mom style, barging into classes that, like, really would only accept, you know, seniors or, or juniors, and I was like, "I'm a fresh- lowly freshman, but, like, accept me." Um, and I was able to run experiments on adults, and I was actually able to see what it would be like to be a researcher, to ask novel questions, and to get the delight that you, uh, that you feel, right-

    15. AHAndrew Huberman1:11:13

        Right.

    16. MSMaya Shankar1:11:13

        ... when you're in a lab, and you're actually testing out new hypotheses. And so, it was really important that I saw that I not only was excited, but that I could actually enjoy parts of the process of getting better.

    17. AHAndrew Huberman1:11:25

        Mm-hmm. I l- love your description of curiosity, because it makes me think that, in some way, it has something to do with a deep motivation and desire to figure out what's next or what's around the corner without an emotional attachment to the outcome. The curiosity is really just trying to figure out what's there, as opposed to hoping that something specific is there, and sometimes even the surprises are more exciting than our predictions. Um, the, I think the quote was initially from Dorothy Parker. I think this is debated, but I think it was, um, you know, uh, "The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity."

    18. MSMaya Shankar1:12:02

        Mm-hmm. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah-

    19. AHAndrew Huberman1:12:04

        Yeah, which, which-

    20. MSMaya Shankar1:12:04

        ... I, I hadn't heard that.

    21. AHAndrew Huberman1:12:05

        Yeah, I believe it was Dorothy Parker.

    22. MSMaya Shankar1:12:07

        Yeah.

    23. AHAndrew Huberman1:12:07

        Um, sometimes misattributed to, uh, Agatha Christie, but I think it was Dorothy Parker, and what I love about it is that there's something about curiosity that, when it's genuine, it's self-amplifying.

    24. MSMaya Shankar1:12:18

        Mm-hmm.

    25. AHAndrew Huberman1:12:18

        It's an upward spiral, because it- there is no end point, right?

    26. MSMaya Shankar1:12:22

        Yeah.

    27. AHAndrew Huberman1:12:22

        I mean, that's one of the, the, the, the things that you learn early in science is, you know, you t- learn, you test hypotheses, you get answers, and you get more questions, and you form hypotheses, and you do that until you die, basically.

    28. MSMaya Shankar1:12:34

        (laughs)

    29. AHAndrew Huberman1:12:34

        And it can be a little bit dark, uh, but when you think about it as a journey, that it, it's just so much fun along the way, if you're just really interested in knowing what the answers are without getting too attached to the answers, it just feels like it just... Even as I'm describing it now, it's like they just can just fill, fill you up, and it provides more energy for the next round-

    30. MSMaya Shankar1:12:53

        Yeah.
15. 1:13:20 – 1:22:29

    Change, Cognitive Closure, End-of-History Illusion

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:13:20

       And earlier you said that, that the thing that bridges the violin and this, uh, what came next as a, as a passion and pursuit was this desire for human connection.

    2. MSMaya Shankar1:13:29

       Mm-hmm.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:13:29

       Uh, at what point did you realize that? And, and here I just, I do want to emphasize that while we're talking about your story, I hope, um, I can only imagine that people are starting to think about, you know, what are the, the intrinsic points of motivation for what they're doing and what they've done, you know, asking the sorts of questions that, um, I hope everyone is asking. Like, you know, what, what is it really that motivates...... me to love this and to see a place for myself in that, um, 'cause those are ultimately, I think, the questions that, that everyone should and can ask.

    4. MSMaya Shankar1:14:03

       Yeah.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:14:03

       Yeah.

    6. MSMaya Shankar1:14:03

       I, um, it took me a really long time. It's actually only been in the last few years that I've discovered this. Uh, I discovered this as a result of creating A Slight Change of Plans. So I, um, my desire to create the show, um, came from a very personal place, which is that I'm terrified of change. So even though I've had these formative experiences with change, I'm a creature of habit. Um, I'm willing to change my habits. For example, I now take caffeine 90 minutes after I get up.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:14:31

       How's that working for you?

    8. MSMaya Shankar1:14:33

       Versus 60... Very well, even today.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:14:34

       Okay. (laughs)

    10. MSMaya Shankar1:14:34

        Okay? I'm a good-

    11. AHAndrew Huberman1:14:35

        Thank you.

    12. MSMaya Shankar1:14:35

        ... I'm a good disciple.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman1:14:35

        (laughs)

    14. MSMaya Shankar1:14:36

        Um...

    15. AHAndrew Huberman1:14:36

        Well, there's sh-

    16. MSMaya Shankar1:14:37

        (laughs)

    17. AHAndrew Huberman1:14:37

        ... I like to think that, I like to think that people afford themselves some flexibility. If you gotta run to the airport...

    18. MSMaya Shankar1:14:42

        60 to 90, 60 to 90 minutes, yeah.

    19. AHAndrew Huberman1:14:43

        60 to 90, or the occasional, you know-

    20. MSMaya Shankar1:14:45

        (laughs)

    21. AHAndrew Huberman1:14:45

        ... uh, you know, within 30 minutes if you, if you have to.

    22. MSMaya Shankar1:14:47

        Yeah.

    23. AHAndrew Huberman1:14:47

        But nobody's perfect.

    24. MSMaya Shankar1:14:49

        No, uh-

    25. AHAndrew Huberman1:14:49

        Nor- Nor should we strive to be.

    26. MSMaya Shankar1:14:50

        I, I'm a student, so I'm willing to update my habits.

    27. AHAndrew Huberman1:14:51

        Yeah.

    28. MSMaya Shankar1:14:51

        But I'm a creature of habit.

    29. AHAndrew Huberman1:14:53

        Appreciate that.

    30. MSMaya Shankar1:14:53

        And I... There's a couple reasons why we as humans, um, are scared of change, and I think one of them, which is incredibly relatable, is that, um, change is filled with a lot of uncertainty, and we hate uncertainty. We will go to irrational lengths to avoid uncertainty. So one of my favorite studies coming out of, uh, cognitive sciences is one involving electric shocks. And what they found is that people are far more stressed when they're told they have a 50% chance of getting an electric shock than when they're told they have a 100% chance of getting an electric shock. So we would rather be sure, certain that a bad thing is going to happen than to have to deal with any feelings of uncertainty and ambiguity, right?

Episode duration: 2:33:55