Overcoming Guilt & Building Tenacity in Kids & Adults | Dr. Becky Kennedy

1. 0:00 – 3:13

   Dr. Becky Kennedy; LA Fires

   1. AHAndrew Huberman0:00

      Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Becky Kennedy. Dr. Becky Kennedy is a clinical psychologist and one of the world's foremost experts in parent-child relationships. Now, you may or may not have children. If you do, today's episode is absolutely for you. If you don't, well, you were once a child. Perhaps you're even still a child. Today's episode also will have valuable knowledge and tools that you can apply to your life. Today, Dr. Becky Kennedy teaches us an immense number of extremely valuable tools for the workplace, for romantic relationships, for family relationships of all types, not just parent-child relationships, and of course, also for parent-child relationships. We discuss themes that have not been discussed previously on the Huberman Lab podcast. Topics such as guilt, which Dr. Becky Kennedy offers a completely unique perspective on, one that I've never heard before and that, frankly, I don't think anyone has heard before. In fact, she distinguishes between what most people think is guilt and an entirely different set of emotions, and offers you very useful practical tools for when you experience guilt and how to work with guilt. We also extensively discuss frustration, or what she calls frustration tolerance. Frustration tolerance is an extremely important theme for everybody to understand and apply in their lives because frustration tolerance, as Dr. Becky Kennedy so aptly points out, is central to the learning process of anything at every age. If you can understand this concept and you apply some of the very simple rules and tools that Dr. Kennedy explains during the podcast, I assure you, you can learn many more things much more quickly and with much greater satisfaction, if not during the process, certainly at the end when you master that learning. And those are just a few of the themes that we discuss during today's episode. Again, whether or not you have children, I assure you that today's episode is going to be immensely beneficial for all of your relationships. You will notice during today's episode that our studio backdrop is different. You will notice that, for once, I was not wearing this particular style of shirt. The reason for that is that this episode was recorded during the LA fires, what was initially called the Palisades fire, and then spread to multiple fires throughout LA County. So, we were not able to access our normal studio, so I want to express extreme gratitude to Rich Roll, our good friend in the podcasting space, who allowed us to use his podcast studio, which is where I'm seated now and where I held the discussion with Dr. Becky Kennedy. First off, our entire team, our homes, and our studio are fine, I can assure you of that. But most importantly, our thoughts and our prayers go out to the people who have lost their homes, lost pets, and sadly, there have been fatalities during the LA fires. So, our thoughts and prayers are with them and their families, and we hope everyone remains safe. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Dr. Becky Kennedy.

2. 3:13 – 11:24

   Emotions, Parents & Kids, Information, Tools: Story; “Right to Notice”

   1. AHAndrew Huberman3:13

      Dr. Becky Kennedy, welcome back.

   2. BKDr. Becky Kennedy3:16

      I'm so happy to be here.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman3:18

      Grateful to Rich Roll for lending us his studio under the duress of fires in Los Angeles. I'm praying that his home is okay. Um, it's unclear at this moment. But, in any event, let's talk about emotions, both theory and practice, and if we can place it in the context of parenting, that would be great, but I'm certain that this has a broader theme that pertains to everybody. So, I love the theory of emotions or how we would theoretically respond to something, but then there's the reality. So, as a parent, let's say, um, you have a stance in your home and in your family that it's okay to be sad. Like, sadness is normal, it happens, it passes, et cetera, but let's say you're feeling par- particularly sad about something.

   4. BKDr. Becky Kennedy4:08

      Mm-hmm.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman4:10

      Do you express that and show that in front of your kids? Because I've also heard that young kids, in particular, younger than eight or nine, perhaps shouldn't be aware that their parents are experiencing, say, extreme sadness-

   6. BKDr. Becky Kennedy4:24

      Mm.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman4:24

      ... because it can be scary to them-

   8. BKDr. Becky Kennedy4:26

      Mm-hmm.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman4:26

      ... or they might feel like their world is destabilizing and then, um, we also hear a lot about kids feeling like they had to parent the parents, and then this whole thing becomes pretty complicated. So, while-

   10. BKDr. Becky Kennedy4:35

       Yeah.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman4:35

       ... there's no perfect world where, um, one knows what to do every single time, how do you look at this business of modeling emotions and also encouraging kids to be able to experience and express their emotions?

   12. BKDr. Becky Kennedy4:49

       Yeah, and I think everything I'm about to share applies, you know, in the workplace, right? Like, can a boss be, you know, really upset in front of the person they manage, management, right? So, it's all the same stuff. So, I guess zooming out is a start. Emotions are normal. Emotions are unstoppable. You can't not feel sad just because you have your five-year-old in the room, right? And I think the other thing that kind of forms my perspective is, it's really hard to not show someone that you're sad. Like, you might think you're doing that well, but kids are extra perceptive. They are actually built to be more perceptive than we are because their survival depends on adults, so they have to always notice, "Is my adult around? Is my adult okay?" So, they really attune to what's going on-

   13. AHAndrew Huberman5:40

       Mm-hmm.

   14. BKDr. Becky Kennedy5:40

       ... for us, right? And so, I think the kind of question is less, "Do I show my emotions to my kid or not?" And it's more, "Okay, if I'm sad, my kid is going to notice. What do I do then?" And as a principal, one of the things I think about often is, information doesn't scare kids as much as the absence of information scares kids.So, let's say there's, let's say there's something really awful. I don't know, as a parent, your, your family member, someone died of cancer. I don't know, there's something really horrible that you just found out, right? There's wildfires right now. Let's say you evacuated and you found out, your house burned down. You're sad. Your child is going to notice that, and you want your child to notice that. You don't want your kid to be a teenager and adult who goes around the world unable to pick up on emotional cues from other people. That- that- that's not adaptive. And so, the patterns we set with our kids when they're young inform their view of the world when they're older. And so here I am, let's say it's the situation of somebody dying and I'm upset. First of all as a parent, tell yourself, "It's not my kid seeing me sad that's going to destabilize them. It's seeing me sad and me making up a bogus story or denying it." Because then my kid goes, "I'm pretty sure my mom was upset. Oh, she's not? Oh, she's pretending like nothing happened? Oh, she looks sad but she's saying she's not sad." That is really upsetting. It would be like hearing your boss say, "Oh yeah, 20% layoffs. What are we doing? I don't know. Oh hi, everything's great, how are you?" Like, what is happening?

   15. AHAndrew Huberman7:31

       Scary.

   16. BKDr. Becky Kennedy7:31

       What you'd want is your boss to say, "You just heard something. You were right to hear that. We are about to go through a really tough time. I'm stressed about it, that's why I yelled. You might be stressed. Here's what I know. This is going to be hard and we're going to get through it together." Now all of a sudden, that emotional experience has a container. It has a story. Humans need stories. We like stories. And so often we think it's the emotions that dysregulate a kid. It's the lack of a story to explain it. So, let's say this really did happen. People always say to me, "Okay, but Dr. Becky, like my kid is four. I'm going to say that their aunt died? They don't even know cancer," right? We don't have a better alternative. I can't even tell you how many parents I've seen whose kids have all of these issues because of the made up stories. "I just said she went to sleep for a while." Six months later, "My kid has a lot of trouble sleeping through the night." Yeah, they haven't seen their aunt who went to sleep one time. Cre- you know, creates a huge issue, no matter what bogus story you make up. Kids can handle the truth, and they can handle the truth when it's told to them from a loving, trusted adult. It's kind of like me and you. Someone can tell us a hard truth, but it's from someone you feel safe with and that you feel like also believes in you and says it honestly, it might be hard but it doesn't feel awful. So, it's about saying to your kid, "You saw me crying." One of my favorite kind of sentences to say to kids around this, 'cause I think it really builds their confidence is just, "You were right to notice that. I was crying and I'm feeling sad. And look, you saw that and I- I'm going to tell you why." I'm making this up. "Aunt- Aunt Sally died. Do you know what dying means? Dying is when someone's body stops working." Then I pause, right? This won't just be a monologue, I'll see how my kid responds. I might add, "I'm not dying." Kids actually really need to hear that in hard times. "I'm not dying. No one else is dying. I'm safe. And you know what? I'm sad and I'm still your strong mom who can take care of you." That sets the stage for such resilience and is kind of the opposite of, "Everything's fine. My kid keeps seeing me crying." They keep hearing words they're not used to hearing, die, cancer, Aunt Sally, funeral, whatever it is. That situation is what makes kids feel really, really uncomfortable and unsafe.

   17. AHAndrew Huberman10:05

       So, it's the absence of information that causes the harm?

   18. BKDr. Becky Kennedy10:10

       Yeah.

   19. AHAndrew Huberman10:11

       And it's the lack of coherence between what they're observing and feeling, and kind of this like open loop, um, if I kind of place it in neuroscience-y terms. I feel like the brain does think in the terms of s- in terms of stories. Stories have a beginning, middle and an end, and they kind of want to know where they are in that story.

   20. BKDr. Becky Kennedy10:31

       That's exactly right. And the terms I would use for it to match your terms are, um, coherent narrative. What is therapy? Why does therapy help people? It's interesting. Therapy doesn't change what happened to you. Therapy doesn't change your past. Therapy does not take away the pain. But the pain was never the thing that really got in our way. It was the pain plus a lack of a coherent narrative in support. And so early on when kids have painful experiences from witnessing you or something else, giving them a coherent narrative is what they need. And without that, the way I think about it is they have what I call unformulated experience. It's just affect and experience that kind of free floats in their body unformulated that tends to later show up as triggers, right? And kind of other things in adulthood. And so yeah, that's what we want to try to avoid when we can.

3. 11:24 – 14:25

   Sponsors: Wealthfront & Our Place

   1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy11:24

   2. AHAndrew Huberman11:24

      I'd like to take a quick break and thank one of our sponsors, Wealthfront. I've been using Wealthfront for my savings and my investing for nearly a decade, and I absolutely love it. Every January I set new goals for the year, and one of my goals for 2025 is to focus on saving money. Since I have Wealthfront, I'll keep that savings in my Wealthfront cash account where I'm able to earn 4% annual percentage yield on my deposits, and you can as well. With Wealthfront, you can earn 4% APY on your cash from partner banks until you're ready to either spend that money or invest it. With Wealthfront, you also get free instant withdrawals to eligible accounts every day, even on weekends and holidays. The 4% APY is not a promotional rate. There's no limit to what you can deposit and earn, and you can even get protection of up to $8 million through FDIC insurance provided through Wealthfront's partner banks. Wealthfront gives you free instant withdrawals where it takes just a few minutes to transfer your money to eligible external accounts. It also takes just minutes to transfer your cash from the cash account to any of Wealthfront's automated investment accounts when you're ready to invest. There are already over a million people using Wealthfront to save more, earn more and build long-term wealth. Earn 4% APY on your cash today. If you'd like to try Wealthfront, go to wealthfront.com/huberman to receive a free $50 bonus with a $500 deposit into your first cash account. That's wealthfront.com/huberman to get started now.This has been a paid testimonial of Wealthfront. Wealthfront Brokerage isn't a bank. The APY is subject to change. For more information, see the episode description. Today's episode is also brought to us by Our Place. Our Place makes my favorite pots, pans, and other cookware. Surprisingly, toxic compounds such as the PFASs, or forever chemicals, are still found in 80% of non-stick pans, as well as utensils, appliances, and countless other kitchen products. As I've discussed on this podcast, these PFASs, or forever chemicals, like Teflon, have been linked to major health issues, such as endocrine disruption, gut microbiome disruption, fertility issues, and many other health problems. So it's really important to avoid them. This is why I've recently fallen in love with Our Place products, especially one of their cooking pans, the Titanium Always Pan Pro. Our Place products are made with the highest quality materials and are all PFAS and toxin-free. They're beautifully designed and function extremely well. As I mentioned, I love the Titanium Always Pan Pro from Our Place. I cook eggs in it most mornings, and the titanium pan is designed in a way that allows the eggs to cook perfectly without sticking to the pan. I also cook burgers on it, and it really puts a nice sear on the burger without the meat sticking to the pan. It's extremely easy to clean. And like all Our Place products, it's nice to look at when sitting out on the counter or stove. For a limited time, Our Place is offering an exclusive 20% discount on their innovative Titanium Always Pan Pro, designed to last a lifetime and completely toxin-free. Visit fromourplace.com/huberman and use the code SAVEHUBERMAN20 to claim the offer. With a 100-day risk-free trial, free shipping, and free returns, you can experience this game-changing cookware with zero risk.

4. 14:25 – 18:33

   Empathy, Kids & Parents

   1. AHAndrew Huberman14:26

      I can't help but put this neuroscience lens on this 'cause I find it so interesting that what you're basically saying, if I understand correctly, is that until we can place things into a story, which is really a sense of beginning, middle, and end, a sense of time, it just reverberates in us. I mean, I think, I can't help myself, you know, we, we've, I don't want to give the impression we've got fires burning all around us, uh, in terms of this building, but-

   2. BKDr. Becky Kennedy14:52

      Yeah.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman14:52

      ... with some distance between us and the fires, that's actually true. And I think one of the things that's so, uh, destabilizing for kids and adults in this kind of circumstance is that we don't know how this is going to work out. We just don't. And of course, none of us have a crystal ball. Uh, we can't peer into the future.

   4. BKDr. Becky Kennedy15:07

      Yeah.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman15:07

      But it's the not knowing that, you know, really extends our brain resources. And I can imagine that for a kid, seeing their parent upset and then hearing, "Well, no, I'm okay. I'm okay," um, would create this kind of open loop where then the kid has to worry about it. Like, like, "When will this come to an end?" Um, one question about expressing sadness in front of a, a child. And if, let's say, somebody expresses why they're sad, is it okay to ac- to accept, um, consolation from the kid?

   6. BKDr. Becky Kennedy15:38

      Yeah.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman15:38

      Because we hear so much that, you know, we shouldn't have to parent, um, as children, we shouldn't have to parent our parents.

   8. BKDr. Becky Kennedy15:44

      Yes.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman15:44

      And thi- this is a big theme, especially on social media nowadays.

   10. BKDr. Becky Kennedy15:47

       Yes. Yes.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman15:47

       Like, were, were you the parent to your parent? You know, were you the one that took out the trash when someone else should have done it, and therefore, you took on more responsibilities? I don't want kids to think they shouldn't take out the trash.

   12. BKDr. Becky Kennedy15:57

       Right.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman15:57

       But yo- you know what I mean? Or, but if you're consoling a parent about a lost job, if you're the parent, uh, the kid, rather, that is sort of the go-between between the parents, is sort of acting as therapist, we, we hear about this a lot, a lot. And I think a lot of people peer into their past and, and say, "Yeah, I did, I grew up way too fast."

   14. BKDr. Becky Kennedy16:14

       Uh, yeah.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman16:15

       So, on the other hand, I think we would all agree that being a empathic person, um, teaching our kids that if somebody's crying, you walk over to that person perhaps and just say, you know, "Do you want me to sit with you?" Or maybe do nothing at all. Maybe offer a solution, maybe not. But at least, you know, provide some sort of support. That seems healthy. But the basic question is, should parents accept consolation from children when the parent is sad or experiencing some other negative emotion?

   16. BKDr. Becky Kennedy16:45

       I think... This is a great question. There's a couple of things that are coming to mind. So first of all, all of this is a matter of extent and patterning. Yes, we do not want our kids to feel like it is their job to take care of our emotions. It's not a good situation. And I think the difference here actually comes down to what the true definition of empathy is. To me, empathy is noticing someone's feelings and caring about them. It's not taking care of them. That's a big difference. So let's say I'm crying and my kid comes over and this whole situation, maybe somebody died, and they're like, "Oh, my goodness, Mom, can I give you a hug? And do, do you want me to get you a cup of water?" Okay, I just want parents to know, you don't have to say, "No! No! I do not want you to be a parentified child!" Like, be like, "That is so, that is so kind. Yes, that would feel great. Okay, that's totally fine." I think the line is, and every parent just knows this for themself, where it might get too, "Oh, you know what? I love that you're noticing I'm sad, and I love that you care about that, and I also want to let you know, those are my feelings, not yours. And I am really able to take care of them myself," with whoever it is, a friend. Um, "And you're still really allowed to be a kid who can go play, who can go have fun, who can even not listen to me once in a while when I say it's bath time. That's actually your job. So let's go do our jobs well." And to me, that comes down to what empathy is, the delineation of, like, what is a parent's job and what is a kid's job? Um, but also, I think all of this can get misrepresented in this, in social media. And I don't want parents to think that they always have to chastise their kid for acting in a caring

5. 18:33 – 26:34

   Sturdiness, Pilot Analogy, Tool: Parental Self-Care

   1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy18:33

      way.

   2. AHAndrew Huberman18:33

      Mm-hmm. Yeah, I feel like kids are, as you said before, kids are so perceptive about what their parents are experiencing. And they'll create or move towards all sorts of, um, emotional gymnastics in order to work with that. Uh, years ago, I saw, I think it was a YouTube video with Jim Carrey, who basically revealed that he became funny, uh...... as a way to make his sick mom laugh, that he grew up with a very sick mom who was chronically ill. And so he would, like, throw himself down the stairs and try and make her laugh, or do-

   3. BKDr. Becky Kennedy19:04

      Yeah.

   4. AHAndrew Huberman19:04

      ... you know, and he was an incredible, like, world-class physical comic, um, among other aspects of c- of comedy. But that his whole career was born out of this childhood tendency to notice that his mom was really hurting and try and basically make her laugh, make her feel something good.

   5. BKDr. Becky Kennedy19:22

      Mm-hmm.

   6. AHAndrew Huberman19:22

      And it, uh, you know, and now I'm thinking about this because it's just incredible the way that kids can pick up on something and then try and find a solution to it.

   7. BKDr. Becky Kennedy19:31

      Yeah.

   8. AHAndrew Huberman19:31

      You know, I could imagine that for kids who have a sick parent, it could be, uh, mental, um, challenges or physical challenges that they've got to notice.

   9. BKDr. Becky Kennedy19:39

      Yes.

   10. AHAndrew Huberman19:40

       And, um, in the case of Jim Carrey, one could argue whether or not it was adaptive or not adaptive. He had this, you know, meteoric career, but, um, eventually just left it, decided that wasn't what, what he wanted to do.

   11. BKDr. Becky Kennedy19:50

       Yeah.

   12. AHAndrew Huberman19:51

       Um, but leaving that extreme example aside, let's say a parent is sick with the flu or is grieving the loss of, uh, you know, God forbid, a spouse or, um, or, or something really major.

   13. BKDr. Becky Kennedy20:04

       Yeah.

   14. AHAndrew Huberman20:05

       Uh, at what point does the parent need to say, "Listen, I'm really hurting. This is bad, and I can handle it," when that might not actually be true? So the question is, you know, uh, how, how much information to give kids.

   15. BKDr. Becky Kennedy20:24

       Yeah.

   16. AHAndrew Huberman20:24

       Because you don't wanna lie to them. On the other hand, you don't want them to feel the burden of-

   17. BKDr. Becky Kennedy20:29

       Yeah.

   18. AHAndrew Huberman20:29

       ... uh, of needing to worry about a circumstance. And I'm framing this in the context of sick parent, but I'm also raising this thing of, um, financial worries.

   19. BKDr. Becky Kennedy20:38

       Yeah.

   20. AHAndrew Huberman20:38

       I have a, a close friend, um, who told me that growing up, their parent was, like, constantly dealing with, you know, moving from one job to the next. It was like- th- this issue of whether or not we're going to have enough resources to get through the next year was a constant question. And this person is now in their mid-30s, and you can tell it still haunts them.

   21. BKDr. Becky Kennedy21:00

       Yeah.

   22. AHAndrew Huberman21:00

       And it's completely shaped their relationship to work and finances.

   23. BKDr. Becky Kennedy21:02

       Yeah.

   24. AHAndrew Huberman21:03

       Yeah.

   25. BKDr. Becky Kennedy21:03

       I mean, I think we can, uh, we can think about this compared to, like, what would I want from my boss? I have a boss who's, I don't know, going through a really hard time or having a really hard time at home. And I kind of notice it. I'd probably want my boss to level with me and say, kind of again, "You have right to notice I'm going through a hard time."

   26. AHAndrew Huberman21:20

       Mm-hmm.

   27. BKDr. Becky Kennedy21:21

       But at what point would it feel like, "Ooh, am I safe in this (laughs) organization," right? I, I, I think we probably all have a point there, and I think it's the same thing with kids. Kids really do need to feel like they have sturdy parents. Again, I always go back to pilots because I think airplane examples are so powerful, because there's very few times in adulthood that we actually feel like our safety is truly dependent on another adult, like, 100%. When you're a passenger in an airplane, you are 100% dependent. So it's kind of the closest dynamic. And you can imagine what it would be like if the pilot was saying, "Going through a really hard time. Who wants to come in and give me, you know, I don't know, you know, tell me a nice story?" (laughs) You'd be like, "Oh my goodness, like, I get you're going through a hard time. This is really not feeling great," right? Um, and what that means and which is, you know, kind of even a larger point is if you're a pilot, you need to make sure you're really doing a lot of self-care, more than the average person because of this outsized responsibility you have. This is what I think about parenting, and it's why from, you know, the bigger theme here is this is wh- what gets me out of bed, you know, every morning so motivated is not just to help parents understand tantrums or emotions or, you know, the latest struggle in their house, although I actually love that. It's to say, hold on, like, we've been really sold, like, an awful story about what it really means to be a parent and how parenting really, first and foremost, is a journey of self-care. How can I be the sturdiest person possible? Who do I need in my life when things go poorly, so I don't lean on my young children and give them a responsibility that is not theirs? You know, I, I was just saying to someone the other day that when you have kids, all of the unhealed parts of your childhood come right before your eyes. They are just triggered over and over and over with your own children. Like, you know, "Oh, my kid's whining. I can't deal with that." Oh, well, whining is probably triggering 'cause it's kind of representative of helplessness. What was it like in my family if I kind of felt helpless? Was that allowed? Did I grow up in a, you know, if you don't stop crying, I'll give you something to cry about family? Okay. If I don't resolve that, I'm going to act that all out on my children and pass that along. So all of kind of these situations where parents are feeling all these different emotions from a trigger, from something in their life, I, I think it goes to what I always tell parents, you know, you have a first and foremost job of self-care and taking care of yourself. That doesn't mean traveling to Europe for the year and leaving your kids alone. It means what is going on inside you, what skills do you need, what networks of support do you need, what do you have around you to help you on the hardest journey of your life and the most rewarding one of being a parent so that you don't have to say to your kids, you know, "Ugh," you know, "Can you kind of take care of me?"

   28. AHAndrew Huberman24:25

       Paul Conti, who came on this podcast to do a, a series about mental health, not just mental challenges but also mental health, which is an interesting concept in its own right, um, has been quoted as saying that, you know, that if you were to list out the 100 most important things for romantic relationships, it would be self-care and communication repeated 50 times. And I'm thinking about that now because sounds like a pretty good model for pretty much every relationship.

   29. BKDr. Becky Kennedy24:54

       Yes.

   30. AHAndrew Huberman24:54

       Self-care, communication. And I must say, the first time I heard him say that, it wasn't on, uh, my podcast, it was on a different podcast.... sort of surprised. I thought, "Self-care first?" But the way you're framing it, um, seems to me that if self-care comes first, or at least very high on the list of what parents should do, it frees up the kids to kind of live and experience life with a lot more ease.
6. 26:34 – 32:51

   Emotions, Rigidity, Moody vs Steady Kids, Siblings

   1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy26:35

   2. AHAndrew Huberman26:35

      I don't know the psychology literature or clinical literature around this, but I'm thinking about, um, speed of emotional shifts.

   3. BKDr. Becky Kennedy26:43

      Mm-hmm.

   4. AHAndrew Huberman26:44

      In my own experience of life, um, I've known moody people, um, and I've known not as moody people. I define moody as people that, whose moods fluctuate quickly and sometimes spontaneously. But this, but this idea that, um, some people are, like, steady as a rock is a, is a great concept, but we also know that we need to feel our emotions, express them to some extent. And yet, there are people where, uh, if we were to plot this, it would look like a high frequency wave, where some people are really upset, then they're feeling better again. They're upset, then they're feeling better again. I'm not talking about extreme pathology here.

   5. BKDr. Becky Kennedy27:18

      Yeah.

   6. AHAndrew Huberman27:18

      I'm talking about, um, you know, someone cuts them off in traffic and they're pissed, but then they're fine. Um, they're very, very happy about something they see, so it doesn't always have to be negative. But then, they're kind of, like, flat affect, and then they're into, you know, something negative. I think that experience of emotions is so far and away different from the experience of emotions, um, emitted from somebody who y- you can kind of see the emotion coming. It's like a slow swell. It's like a, it's like a expansion and then a contraction again, that y- y- you have time. And I feel like I keep coming back to this theme of time perception, but anytime we have time or we hear about, like, in the, all the Buddhist traditions, like, space. Like, you're trying to create mental space, and, you know, the, this gap between stimulus and response. It all sounds great, but with some people, you have to really be on your toes, or perhaps you disengage.

   7. BKDr. Becky Kennedy28:09

      Mm-hmm.

   8. AHAndrew Huberman28:09

      And so I've never heard a satisfying answer to this, probably 'cause I've never asked it out loud. If you're a kid or if you're a parent and somebody is experiencing something-

   9. BKDr. Becky Kennedy28:19

      Mm-hmm.

   10. AHAndrew Huberman28:20

       ... let's say they're really angry or really happy, y- you can imagine riding that wave in with them. You could also imagine sitting back from it. And some of this is probably what we'd call temperament. But maybe you could talk about this a little bit, um, in the context of having one or both parents as kind of a, like, uh, high frequency shifts between emotions versus kind of a slow expansion and, and, um, and then settling of emotions, 'cause I feel like those are two completely different experiences of life.

   11. BKDr. Becky Kennedy28:48

       Yeah. I mean, I think you're speaking to how differently we feel emotions. I mean, you know, I think about one of my kids, who I call a deeply feeling kid, right? So my image is always she's just more porous to the world. And so if you think about someone who's more porous, that their pores are literally wider, a lot more is gonna come in. And guess what? A lot more is gonna come out, right? And she's the kid who, by the way, you're in a certain area in New York City, she's like, "I can't be here. The smell!" For me, I'm wired differently. I was like, "I literally don't smell anything different." Now, does that mean she's wrong? No. I- I actually bet, knowing her, she smells things, and then she lets me know how awful it is and she can't stand on that corner. And for me, in that moment at least, 'cause we're probably all volatile in different ways, I look steady as a rock, right? Um, I have another kid who, yeah, is pretty steady until he feels like his authority and power is threatened, and then you better watch out, you know? And so in one moment, someone might see him as, "Oh, wow, that kid's really volatile." But in probably 90% of other moments, he's kind of cool as a cucumber. So I also think it's important to categorize kids not as, like, always one way or another, but we all feel emotions differently. None of them is wrong or right. To me, the goal is to not be locked into any one thing. That, to me, rigidity is always the enemy. That, that's what holds us back in adulthood, if we're always one way. "I can never handle someone cutting me off in traffic, because the emotion takes me over and I have road rage." Yeah, that's not good. That's a very rigid, limited way of living life. But it's probably also limiting to say, "I've never really gotten riled up about anything." Forget road rage. But it's kind of amazing to get riled up once in a while and to feel really passionately about something and to feel something enough that you wanna go do something about it, right? So there's no morality on it. I think what's tricky, I can even say as a parent of three kids, is each of my kids, I always kind of imagine this, if I have all these different parts of me, they each need a different part of me to kind of lead. Like, uh, uh, they almost need different lead parents, right? So my kid who is my deeply feeling kid, I know...What's so important is that I believe her experience, and I better be ready with certain boundaries because she feels things so intensely, especially when she was younger. I have to step in more often. There's more difficult behavior, right? My kid who's really, really steady, I try to sometimes, even though it's convenient 'cause he's so easy, you know, there's definitely a lot going on in there. And sometimes I wonder, does he almost feel like all the emotional space is taken up by his siblings, and the only thing left for him is kind of steady as a rock? And that can lead to rigidity later in life, right? So, I think these are, like, moving systems. So much of how we experience emotions growing up is also dictated by the system and kind of the roles our siblings play. Um, and so I don't know if that kind of gives you enough of an answer, um, but I think that-

   12. AHAndrew Huberman31:58

       That's very, that's informative.

   13. BKDr. Becky Kennedy31:59

       Yeah, I think the thing-

   14. AHAndrew Huberman32:00

       Yeah.

   15. BKDr. Becky Kennedy32:00

       ... I really want parents to know is I think we place a lot of morality on it, and if we're honest with ourselves, we're probably just comparing our kid to how we do things. So (laughs) if you're someone who's pretty steady, you're like, "My kid is crazy. They're dramatic," right? If you're someone who's a little more out there, you're not as bothered by that kid, and then you have another kid, you're like, "That kid's kind of boring," right? 'Cause they're so flat. And so, I mean, I think this is true in couples too. Whenever we're fighting, we're probably just saying, "Why can't you be more like me?" When we're triggered by our kid, we're like, "Why can't you be more like me," right? That's probably what we're always saying to each other, going back to communication. But if you take a little different perspective of, hold on a second, there's no wrong or right way to feel emotions. Some behaviors are not allowed, but all the emotions have information, and what might my kid need right now? Instead of, oh my goodness, is my kid messed up, or why is my kid not just a little bit more like me?

7. 32:51 – 39:26

   Emotion Talk, Crying; Eye Rolls, Tools: Not Taking Bait; Discuss Struggle

   1. AHAndrew Huberman32:51

      How useful is it to talk to kids about emotions when they're not happening?

   2. BKDr. Becky Kennedy32:56

      I mean, to me, this is something, like I- I always just say, I always phrase it as emotion talk, right? Just knowing that emotions live within you, knowing that there's names for them, that they're normal, that they make sense, to me, it's like the ultimate leg-up in life. It's like, it gives your kids such resilience because we, we can't beat our emotions. I feel like we've been trying that for generations. Like, if I just only didn't feel so angry or so jealous or so sad. Our emotions are so primal in our body, and I really do believe emotions, they're information. That's what they are. Why would we ever want to not get the information our body is giving us? And sometimes it's almost dramatic what happens in an amazing way. (laughs) Like, so many people, I think about so many times I have people in a room for therapy, they start crying. I'm so sorry. You're feeling something so intensely that your body is producing water from your eyes to get your attention? Like that's, that must be really important information.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman34:03

      Yeah.

   4. BKDr. Becky Kennedy34:03

      Why are we saying sorry?

   5. AHAndrew Huberman34:04

      And as far as we know, a uniquely human thing. I could be wrong about this, but a colleague and, uh, of mine at Stanford, a psychiatrist, um, Carl Deisseroth, talked about this, um, that humans are the only species that we are aware of that sheds tears for sake of emotion.

   6. BKDr. Becky Kennedy34:23

      Yeah.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman34:24

      Other animals, they have lacrimal glands, they produce, you know, water, so to speak-

   8. BKDr. Becky Kennedy34:28

      Yeah.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman34:28

      ... salty water that comes out of their, uh, their eye region, but, uh, not as it relates to emotions. At least, we don't think so.

   10. BKDr. Becky Kennedy34:34

       So, that's a great example. Like, I even think about a conversation I have had with my kids, and I like to just have these moments here and there. Whenever I talk about good conversations with my kids, I think people think I have these 45-minute... No, they're usually 10 seconds. I say one thing, my kids say, "Can I have a snack now?" And I think that's a great conversation because I know it gets in there. "Do you know that tears have really important information for us?" They're gonna be like, "What? What'd you say?" "I'm just thinking, so many people think tears are bad. Tears are kind of amazing. It's like our body is trying to stop us, and it's, like, asking us to pay attention to something really powerful. I just think it's kind of an amazing thing our body does." Then my kid goes, "Can I have pretzels?" "Oh, sure, I'll get you pretzels." That, that to me is a win. I just wanna tell everyone.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman35:19

       I love it.

   12. BKDr. Becky Kennedy35:19

       That is a 10 out of 10.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman35:21

       (laughs) Can I have pretzels?

   14. BKDr. Becky Kennedy35:21

       I'm bragging to people about that.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman35:22

       I love it.

   16. BKDr. Becky Kennedy35:22

       I'm like, "I had the best conversation," because I know this is seeping in.

   17. AHAndrew Huberman35:29

       Mm-hmm.

   18. BKDr. Becky Kennedy35:30

       Because in the moment, my kid is crying. You think it's gonna be helpful when my seven-year-old is crying, "Tears are amazing," or like, "F you, mom." (laughs)

   19. AHAndrew Huberman35:38

       Totally.

   20. BKDr. Becky Kennedy35:39

       No one wants to hear that.

   21. AHAndrew Huberman35:40

       My reflex would be to tell them the biology of tears. Noam Sobel, who was on the podcast, told us that tears-

   22. BKDr. Becky Kennedy35:44

       Yeah.

   23. AHAndrew Huberman35:44

       ... contain hormones that signal to other people, pheromones, excuse me-

   24. BKDr. Becky Kennedy35:48

       Yes.

   25. AHAndrew Huberman35:48

       ... that literally change the biology of the people around you.

   26. BKDr. Becky Kennedy35:50

       That's right.

   27. AHAndrew Huberman35:50

       We can actually smell tears. We don't realize we're doing it. See, here I go. So you tell, I realized you tell a kid-

   28. BKDr. Becky Kennedy35:55

       Right.

   29. AHAndrew Huberman35:55

       ... I spent enough time with kids that if you tell them that, they're like, "Whatever," you know?

   30. BKDr. Becky Kennedy36:00

       But you know when that's a great conversation? Around the dinner table. And again, your kids will roll their eyes. Kids roll their eyes about everything. I always think rolling their eyes or stop is kind of a kid's way of saying, "There's a lot coming at me, on my own person. I just need to push it away a little so that on my own time and under my own control, I can take it in." And we take eye rolls or whatever it is so personally that then we end up getting into a power struggle. "Why are you rolling my eyes?" And we miss this opportunity. If we just say nothing then, our kid is gonna take in what we just said. Just walk away. Let the whole process happen. You know, it's kind of like if your boss comes in and says something like, "Oh, look, that project really wasn't as good as it, you know, could have been, and I really need these things done." And you're like, "Ugh." And then imagine- "You're rolling your eyes at me?" If your boss just leaves the room, you probably think, "Ugh, I didn't do that as well as I could. I'm gonna go work on it," right? So, I feel like not taking the bait-
8. 39:26 – 48:50

   Parent-Child Power Dynamics, Tools: Requests for Parent; Repair

   1. AHAndrew Huberman39:26

      seems that, um, you know, we're, here we're not defining the age of the kids, but, uh, if one presents themselves as, um, perfect or close to it in any kind of relationship, work, romantic, parenting, et cetera, um, sooner or later, uh, you're gonna fall from grace, because they're e- either gonna be looking for the mistake, or the moment you make a mistake, it's gonna be this fracture in the picture that people had of you.

   2. BKDr. Becky Kennedy39:50

      Yeah.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman39:50

      And I have to say, um, and I think some people might get irritated or even, um, uh, dare I say, triggered, uh, by the language I'm about to use, but I feel like the real, like, ninja move in all of this is to acknowledge that there are power dynamics between parent and child, but then-

   4. BKDr. Becky Kennedy40:09

      Mm.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman40:09

      ... to try and dissolve the power dynamics.

   6. BKDr. Becky Kennedy40:11

      Mm.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman40:11

      And I say this in the context of having run a lab for a long time, which is very different than raising small children, but you have people who are coming into your laboratory. They are, they're, if they're your graduate student or postdoc, they're, they're staking their whole career on your ability to teach and mentor, and a lot is at stake. Nothing is for certain. They might not get a job. Their papers might not work out that... You know, and so there's just so much tension around it. And, um, and so as a PI, as a principal investigator in a lab, I, I remember feeling that pressure of like, it's gotta work out. And one of the best things that ever happened to me as a graduate student was that my first paper took forever to get accepted, and we almost got in, and then it didn't get in, and then finally it got in, such that every paper after that felt like a breeze because it took so damn long the first time. And I got to see that my advisor couldn't, like, make magic happen, and fortunate- fortunately that's the way-

   8. BKDr. Becky Kennedy41:04

      Oh.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman41:04

      ... the scientific process is supposed to work. And I think about this in, in the context of parenting. Like, if you, if you're seen as invincible, you know, we hear about this. Like, uh, people say, "I thought my dad was Superman. I thought my mom was Superwoman," you know? And then, but you can imagine what, how disappointing it must be when they discover anything about a, a lack of capacity or, or a break-

   10. BKDr. Becky Kennedy41:24

       Yup.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman41:24

       ... in emotional stability, et cetera. So, how does one present themselves as both, um-

   12. BKDr. Becky Kennedy41:30

       Yeah.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman41:30

       ... powerful in the positive sense of the word-

   14. BKDr. Becky Kennedy41:33

       Yeah.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman41:33

       ... such a, such a thorny word, but powerful in the positive sense of the word, but human and vulnerable to making mistakes-

   16. BKDr. Becky Kennedy41:40

       Yeah.

   17. AHAndrew Huberman41:40

       ... in a way that you don't give up the essential, let's just call it what it is, a power-

   18. BKDr. Becky Kennedy41:46

       Yeah.

   19. AHAndrew Huberman41:46

       ... dynamic with your kids so that the kid then doesn't feel they have to parent you?

   20. BKDr. Becky Kennedy41:49

       I love this topic because it's, it's so interesting right now. It's kind of review season at Good Inside 'cause I also am the CEO of a company, and to me, the things I talk about with parenting and my kids, and for other people parenting their kids, they are the exact same principles, exact, as leading a team. And so, when I think about review season and the way we get feedback, and the, right? And back and forth, it j- it brings this all together, and I'll explain. So, the other day I said to my kids, I love resolutions. I actually do love resolutions, right? 'Cause I love just the opportunity to say what is one small thing, I'm like, I value and I'm gonna hold myself accountable to do. What I said to my kids was, "I want you to come up with one thing, just one thing for now, and it has to be something, like, manageable and real that I could do that would really make me a better mom to you."

   21. AHAndrew Huberman42:46

       You asked your kids this?

   22. BKDr. Becky Kennedy42:47

       I asked my kids this. I actually asked my kids this relatively frequently. It's like a review, right? Um, because it's something I do at work all the time. And what I say at work is, 'cause often my direct reports say, "Nothing." And I said, "I, I just wanna tell you something. I need one thing from you by the end of the day. I need it because, like, I know, I know I can get hot. I know I can get a little reactive, right?" Um, "I know I'm always go, go, go, and there probably is a moment that, you know, I need to pause. I, I, I know. I know I have a lot of issues. So, if you don't tell me one thing, I don't trust you as much." So, here's what happened with my kids. At that point it w- there was only two of them. This just happened the other day. My son says, my seven-year-old son, w-"Sometimes when you're trying to get some work done at home and I want to get your attention for something, this is what you do, Mom. One minute, one minute, one minute, and then you still don't give me your full attention."

   23. AHAndrew Huberman43:43

       He's clocking. He's clocking.

   24. BKDr. Becky Kennedy43:44

       "I'd rather you tell me five minutes, and then give me your full attention." That's literally what... And I- I was just like, "That is a really good suggestion, and I really needed to hear that. I can do that." This was a couple of days ago. Okay, I have to admit, two days ago, he was trying to show me something, and he just goes, "You're doing it." (laughs) "You're not really giving me your attention." And I said, "You're right. Thank you. Change is hard. I actually do need about two minutes. Is that okay? And then you'll- I'll put my computer down." 'Cause I'll sometimes look at him and like kind of look at, you know. And he goes, "Okay." Uh, it- it was kind of s- it was so beautiful. My daughter said, "At night," she goes... It's so interesting when you give people this opportunity how generous they can be with you. (laughs) I think it's been true at work and home. My daughter goes, "I know when it's my bedtime at night, I always want to do one or two extra things. I know. I always have to get my water. Mom, it's just how I am." That's what she said. "And you get this rushing voice, and you go, 'Come on, it's bedtime!' And that's, like, the last voice I hear before bed, and I really don't like that voice. And so can you just know that I always need to do those one or two extra things and not use that voice?" And again, I said, "You know what? I wouldn't want to hear that as the last voice." You know, and I think at night especially, just a little digression, uh, I want, uh, I- I always feel like I'm in a rush. I don't- I don't know, an extra two minutes with my kids. Like, my kids are getting older. They're not even in my house for that much longer. I just have to remind myself, "I'm not in a rush. Like, this is the best use of my time." That's what I said. And that one, I've been really good at. And so how do we show our kids that we're fallible? One way is actually, like, asking for feedback, especially when you have older kids. When you have a teenager, this is the number one thing that can change things around. "You know what I'm thinking about? It's hard to be a teen, and I'm definitely not a perfect parent of a teen. I'm sure you have a long list, but for right now, can you name one thing that I could do that would make me a better parent to you?" And I want to follow this through, 'cause what a lot of teens will do, or parents will say, "My teenager tells me something ridiculous." They'll say, "Well, you know how you make me charge my phone at 9:00 or 10:00 PM out of the room? You could let me sleep with my phone." Which maybe the parent will go, "I'm just not gonna do that." Or they'll say, "You know what you could do? You could give me $1,000 every week for an allowance," right? And so parents will say, "My kid doesn't take it seriously." This is where, like, to me, one of the most important life skills, parenting, management, friendships, it doesn't matter, is differentiating someone's words on the surface from their needs, or their feelings, or their fears, whatever it is underneath, and not responding to the words but kind of cutting under them. Let's even say, um, a kid said the phone thing. "What would be so great about having your phone? Just help me understand it. I know in my head I'm never gonna do it." But we don't realize just 'cause we're not gonna do something someone asks, it doesn't mean we don't owe that person the right to try to understand why they want it, right? So I might just ask questions. It might probably end with, "Look, I actually hear what you're saying. All of your friends are on Instagram until midnight. It sounds like you legitimately do miss out on conversations. By the time you get to school, you feel out of them. Like, I'm not even joking. I feel like if I was your age, I'd be like, 'That's, like, basically the worst thing ever.' I believe you. Having your phone after X time, it- it's just one of my non-negotiables. It- it's actually just 'cause I love you so much that I feel like my job is to protect you. I do- I wonder if there is some other way that we can figure that out.'" Or my kid says, "$1,000." I might say, "What would you do with $1,000? Oh, you'd go- oh, you want to go to more concerts. Oh, your friends all get more allowance. Tell me more." No matter what your kid says to you, there's information. So I think feedback is one. (laughs) I think repair is another way. Repair is the most important relationship strategy to get good at. And I just hope everyone hears the duality in that and realizes what that means, because if you're gonna get good at repair, you have to mess up. The only way to repair is to mess up. And so if I'm telling you get good at repair, I am telling you, you have to accomplish step one, which is yelling (laughs) at your kid. You have to. And you're gonna do it anyway. I do it. But if you then tell yourself, "Wait, I'm getting good at repair. Step one is messing up. I crushed it. Amazing, I'm half the way there," then when you repair, which is when you take ownership, "Hey, I'm sorry I yelled. Just like you, I'm managing my emotions. Emotions are really tricky. Emotions are really hard. And do you know what? Even though you're gonna have a leg up on this compared to most people when they're adults 'cause you're learning how to regulate emotions, you're still gonna be practicing that when you're my age. That is my responsibility to work on. It's not your fault, and I love you." So powerful.

   25. AHAndrew Huberman48:49

       I'd like to take

9. 48:50 – 51:39

   Sponsors: AG1 & Joovv

   1. AHAndrew Huberman48:50

      a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1. AG1 is a vitamin-mineral-probiotic drink that also includes prebiotics and adaptogens. AG1 is designed to cover all of your foundational nutritional needs, and it tastes great. Now, I've been drinking AG1 since 2012, and I started doing that at a time when my budget for supplements was really limited. In fact, I only had enough money back then to purchase one supplement, and I'm so glad that I made that supplement AG1. The reason for that is even though I strive to eat most of my foods from whole foods and minimally processed foods, it's very difficult for me to get enough fruits, vegetables, vitamins and minerals, micronutrients, and adaptogens from food alone. And I need to do that in order to ensure that I have enough energy throughout the day, I sleep well at night, and keep my immune system strong. But when I take AG1 daily, I find that all aspects of my health, my physical health, my mental health, and my performance, both cognitive and physical, are better. I know that because I've had lapses when I didn't take AG1, and I certainly felt the difference. I also notice, and this makes perfect sense given the relationship between the gut microbiome and the brain, that when I regularly take AG1, which for me means a serving in the morning or mid-morning and again later in the afternoon or evening, that I have more mental clarity and more mental energy. If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer. For this month only, January 2025, AG1 is giving away 10 free travel packs and a year's supply of vitamin D3 K2. Again, go to drinkag1.com/huberman-... to claim the 10 free travel packs and a year's supply of vitamin D3 K2. Today's episode is also brought to us by Joovv. Joovv makes medical grade red light therapy devices. Now, if there's one thing that I have consistently emphasized on this podcast, it's the incredible impact that light can have on our biology. Now, in addition to sunlight, red light and near-infrared light have been shown to have positive effects on improving numerous aspects of cellular and organ health, including faster muscle recovery, improved skin health and wound healing, improvements in acne, meaning reductions in acne, reduced pain and inflammation, improved mitochondrial function, and even improving visual function itself. What sets Joovv lights apart and why they're my preferred red light therapy device is that they use clinically proven wavelengths, meaning specific wavelengths of red light and near-infrared light and specific combinations to trigger the optimal cellular adaptations. Personally, I use the Joovv whole body panel about three to four times per week, typically in the morning, but sometimes in the afternoon. And I use the Joovv handheld light both at home and when I travel. If you'd like to try Joovv, you can go to Joovv, spelled J-O-O-V-V, .com/huberman. Joovv is offering an exclusive discount to all Huberman Lab listeners with up to $400 off select Joovv products. Again, that's Joovv, J-O-O-V-V, .com/huberman to get up to $400 off.

10. 51:39 – 59:16

    Power & Authority, Tools: Learning More; Parent Primary Job & Safety

    1. AHAndrew Huberman51:39

       I love, love, love this thing about asking for a request. It's different than asking for feedback, which could quickly lead to a list of all the things that you, one does wrong, as opposed to a request for how one could do better.

    2. BKDr. Becky Kennedy51:53

       Yeah.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman51:53

       So, there's an important distinction there. And then it seems that the question that, uh, the parent, or who knows, the boss, or whatever, maybe it's with a romantic partner, needs to ask themselves is, you know, what is this request really about?

    4. BKDr. Becky Kennedy52:08

       Yeah.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman52:08

       Like, what's underneath it? Uh, I'm just paraphrasing essentially-

    6. BKDr. Becky Kennedy52:11

       Yeah.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman52:11

       ... what you said. And what's it really about? Is it a request for more autonomy, for more social connection with other people? And then one starts to realize, uh, certainly in this, um, example that you gave of, uh, a child asking for more time with their phone late at night, is that it actually has nothing to do with your relationship to them. It's really about their relationship to their friends.

    8. BKDr. Becky Kennedy52:32

       Yeah. Could be.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman52:32

       And the fact that they might feel as if they're missing out.

    10. BKDr. Becky Kennedy52:35

        Yeah.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman52:36

        And, um, that leads me to another question, which is what if you, as the parent, partner, boss, et cetera, keep your phone close to you until mid- midnight, and they know that.

    12. BKDr. Becky Kennedy52:48

        Yeah.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman52:48

        So, one of the worst things that I believe anyone can say is, you know, "Do as I say, not as I do." It's just, it's just such an, a, like, blatantly arrogant stance of, "You're supposed to f- do what I say because I say so, but I'm not gonna do it because I don't want to."

    14. BKDr. Becky Kennedy53:03

        Mm-hmm.

    15. AHAndrew Huberman53:04

        Um, and yet there are times, like in parent-child relationships or boss-employee relationships where you're telling somebody to do something, and you yourself are not going to do it or no longer do it or choose not to do it. And in reality, you don't have to.

    16. BKDr. Becky Kennedy53:19

        Yeah.

    17. AHAndrew Huberman53:19

        And maybe there's a good reason why you don't-

    18. BKDr. Becky Kennedy53:21

        Yeah.

    19. AHAndrew Huberman53:21

        ... or don't have to.

    20. BKDr. Becky Kennedy53:21

        Yeah.

    21. AHAndrew Huberman53:22

        That's the nature of, that's why I use these, uh, words, um, power dynamics.

    22. BKDr. Becky Kennedy53:26

        Power, yes.

    23. AHAndrew Huberman53:26

        Which- which everyone hears and goes, "Oh, boy, here we go." But- but it is an issue of power dynamics. You have more power than the- than the kid.

    24. BKDr. Becky Kennedy53:33

        Yes.

    25. AHAndrew Huberman53:34

        So, what you're doing is you're giving the kid power to express where they want more agency.

    26. BKDr. Becky Kennedy53:39

        Mm-hmm.

    27. AHAndrew Huberman53:39

        I like the word maybe agency more than power.

    28. BKDr. Becky Kennedy53:41

        Yeah.

    29. AHAndrew Huberman53:41

        Um, did you grant your son the, uh, the right to use his phone later into the evening?

    30. BKDr. Becky Kennedy53:47

        My son, my son has-
11. 59:16 – 1:05:59

    Statements of Stance, Actions vs Emotions; Values, Behaviors & Rigidity

    1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy59:16

    2. AHAndrew Huberman59:16

       I had something come to mind which is not a, a phrase that I've ever used before or heard before, um, but what comes to mind is kind of, um, statements of stance.

    3. BKDr. Becky Kennedy59:26

       Yes.

    4. AHAndrew Huberman59:27

       I feel like statements of stance in parent-child relationships, families, workplace, romantic relationships, et cetera, are great when they're about actions or about sort of overriding themes, like, "No matter what, I'm trying to keep you safe. I might not get everything right, but, like, I, that is, like, non-negotiable internally, and I'm gonna try and make it non-negotiable externally."

    5. BKDr. Becky Kennedy59:50

       Yeah.

    6. AHAndrew Huberman59:50

       Like I've... It's a statement of stance about actions, like, um, or, you know, "Keeping you healthy and safe is my number one priority." Th- those are facts. Those are things that one can really say and believe and, and, you know, until the end of time, be trying to, uh, incorporate into one's behavior. But I feel like statements of stance about emotions are very dangerous.

    7. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:00:10

       Hmm.

    8. AHAndrew Huberman1:00:11

       Like, um, "We don't yell in this house." Um, you know, uh, "It's okay to cry," right? There's always a caveat. Of course it's okay to cry, right? (laughs) Um, but there are times when crying is less appropriate. There's times when, um, yelling might be appropriate. Uh, there's times when, um, emotions need to be expressed or not expressed in a particular way because I... Look, I don't think I'm alone in thinking that, you know, the kid tantruming in the, um, in a public environment-

    9. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:00:43

       Mm-hmm.

    10. AHAndrew Huberman1:00:43

        ... is a- an embarrassing thing for them, for their parent, for people around, and it's not the end of the world, right? It's a tantrum, for goodness' sake, right? Like, uh, people will survive. But I feel like statements of stance about emotions kind of hold us to this standard that we'll never be able to meet, but that statements of stance about action-

    11. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:01:01

        Mm-hmm.

    12. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:02

        ... are, you know, un- till we fail, and, you know, hope we don't-

    13. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:01:07

        Yeah.

    14. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:07

        ... um, we can say things like, you know, "My job is always to keep you safe. I'm always going to try and make the best decision for you and for your sister"-

    15. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:01:16

        Right.

    16. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:17

        ... for instance. But I think that many people, and I'm not just speaking from my own experience, but in talking to friends and, um, and others, that they grew up in homes where, like, there were these philosophies, these, like, statements of stance, and the moment that things didn't match that statement of stance, like, the whole concept of what parents and children are supposed to be about just kind of started to dissolve.

    17. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:01:38

        Yeah.

    18. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:38

        And it creates that underlying fear, like, "Do they even really know what they're doing?"

    19. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:01:42

        Yeah.

    20. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:42

        Or maybe they don't know what they're doing, but maybe they're trying. So in any case, it's, um, it's just something that maybe we could, um-

    21. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:01:49

        Yeah, I-

    22. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:49

        ... talk about for a moment.

    23. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:01:50

        ... I have some reactions to that. I think... I mean, I kind of think you're talking about values and principles.

    24. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:54

        Mm-hmm.

    25. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:01:55

        Right? And so, I think there are... In my house, to be honest, it's not like we have some wall of, like, "These are our family values." That's... I mean, some-

    26. AHAndrew Huberman1:02:03

        I've seen those in people's homes.

    27. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:02:04

        ... families might do this. Yeah, that's not-

    28. AHAndrew Huberman1:02:05

        Yeah, on the refrigerator.

    29. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:02:06

        ... I'm not organized enough to, to do that. But if I thought about a couple that come to mind, like, my job is to keep my kids safe. By the way, safe does not mean they're never in a situation without risk. That's not what I mean. Um, you know, but in general, I'm-

    30. AHAndrew Huberman1:02:20

        That's its own form of danger.
12. 1:05:59 – 1:15:46

    Guilt, Women; Tools: “Not Guilt”, Tennis Court Analogy & Empathy

    1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:05:59

       Yes.

    2. AHAndrew Huberman1:05:59

       I've heard some kinda catchphrase-y stuff, not from you, but like, oh, you know, guilt is about the thing you did, and shame is a feeling about who we are, and, you know, I, while I'm not against those sort of, um, 1990s, early 2000s kind of psychology-isms, I feel like they're not very useful.

    3. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:06:17

       Mm-hmm.

    4. AHAndrew Huberman1:06:17

       In the same way that hearing that there's a gap between stimulus and response, and if you identify that gap, well, then, goodness, you're gonna be the kind of person that can feel stressed but not be reactive. You're gonna be responsive, not reactive. That's just a bunch of words that doesn't, here I'm a biologist so I'll just say doesn't take into account the fact that the biology of stress changes your perception of time and a whole bunch of other things that basically make that gap between stimulus and response much, much smaller. And I think once people understand that, then they go, "Oh, so, like, the- the kitchen refrigerator magnet or the poster on the wall that says, you know, like, there's a gap between stimulus and response, it was supposed to save me, but it didn't?" Of course not. Like, we're just in different states of mind at different times.

    5. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:07:00

       Yes.

    6. AHAndrew Huberman1:07:00

       So, how do you define, no pressure here, but-

    7. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:07:05

       Yeah.

    8. AHAndrew Huberman1:07:05

       ... um, but how do you define guilt versus shame?

    9. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:07:08

       Great.

    10. AHAndrew Huberman1:07:09

        And what about guilt and shame?

    11. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:07:12

        Great. Two of my favorite topics. I have a couple different ways of defining things. I- I- I, I'm like you. To me, I- I like defining things in ways that are very concrete and very usable, mm, that's all. And if there's multiple ways of doing that, that's great. So, the way I think about guilt, and this will probably set us off in a direction about what is not guilt also, is guilt is a feeling I have when I act out of alignment with my values. And in that way, guilt is a really useful feeling. Real useful, because it makes me reflect on, wait, I didn't act in line with my values. I wonder why. What would I have had to do differently? What got in my way? Wow, I'm so glad I have that information from my body to have this deeply uncomfortable feeling to set in that process, right? So if I yell at my kid, I'm gonna feel guilty, right? I- I- I think about a time when my kid told me, "You know, I lied to you. I did take that eraser from that kid in school, and I feel really guilty." And I said, "First of all, I'm so glad you told me that. I'm- I'm so glad you're feeling guilty. That's the right way to feel. Now, there must've been something so hard about seeing something so shiny and fun that you don't have. I totally get that, and you're right, that's not in your values to take it." So, that's a useful feeling. That feeling's gonna help you.... not do something like that again. Let's figure out what you can do not just to say sorry." This is what parents miss. You know what's gonna happen another time? They're gonna see something else pretty cool in someone's cubby, (laughs) and you know what most people think? "I'm going to take that." You're gonna have the thought again. I would too. What can you do the next time you have that thought, right? All of this comes because of guilt, useful feeling. Guilt is a feeling you have when you act out of alignment with your values. Now, to me, guilt is one of the most misunderstood feelings, because what you hear all the time, and you'll hear how much it kind of conflicts with this definition is something like this, "I haven't seen my friends in years. There's finally a dinner, but it would require me not to put my kid down to sleep." You know, and if I'm talking to someone, I'd say, "Okay, well, I'm guessing or not leaving your kid alone." You know, again, my husband or my mom, someone who's a totally safe adult. "But Becky, I told my kid, and she was clinging to me like, 'No, Mommy, I need it to be you, I need it to be you,' and so I'm not going to dinner." Do you know what I'm gonna say, Andrew? "Because I feel so guilty." This is, right, ugh, "Someone asked me to be in the PTA meeting, and I'm so busy I can't, but I can't do it because I feel so guilty." Okay. A- a- a- again, I'm just curious, I say, "Well, it sounds like you really want to go to dinner with your friends." She's like, "Oh, I do. All I do as a parent these days, I literally haven't seen these friends in years, they're in town." And I said, "Tell me about your friendships." That's something you val- did I value my... Yes, I know that I'm kind of more than just someone who puts down my kid for bed and I love doing that, but, but this matters too. So I said, "This is really interesting, you really value your friendships. Your life right now feels out of balance, and that your friendships, that part of your burner of your stove is, like, really low, okay, and you're not going because you feel guilty." I just want to share an idea, guilt is a feeling you have when you act out of alignment with your values. It seems like going to dinner would be in line (laughs) with your values, and almost it's like, yeah, that's true, so what is this feeling? And here's what I think the feeling is, I call it not guilt just because I haven't figured out a more sophisticated-

    12. AHAndrew Huberman1:10:46

        Mm-hmm.

    13. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:10:46

        ... term. But here's what I think is happening, a lot of us, especially women, when we were growing up, we learned to notice everyone's feelings around us. And we learned that our value, really, (laughs) and our worth really, and we were kind of best and good girls when we took care of everyone else's feelings (laughs) except for our own. I think so many young girls especially become expert at what people need of them by becoming distant from what they need for themselves.

    14. AHAndrew Huberman1:11:25

        The picture I get in my mind is sort of like having antennae cast in every direction-

    15. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:11:29

        That's right.

    16. AHAndrew Huberman1:11:30

        ... except, uh, perhaps at the-

    17. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:11:32

        Inward.

    18. AHAndrew Huberman1:11:32

        ... exclusion of, of paying attention to the atten- antennae that are inward.

    19. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:11:36

        Exactly.

    20. AHAndrew Huberman1:11:37

        And we're, and we are, um, you know, attentional resources are finite. I mean, we, we just don't have the capacity to-

    21. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:11:42

        That's right.

    22. AHAndrew Huberman1:11:42

        ... like, respond to other people's emotions and feel at the same time to the same degree that we would if we just concentrated on theirs or our emotions.

    23. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:11:49

        And kids are-

    24. AHAndrew Huberman1:11:50

        I mean, that's just a fact of how humans work.

    25. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:11:51

        Yeah, and kids are, are oriented by attachment, they have to learn with their families wh- how do I become the most lovable, safest version of myself? So I have a friend who, it's true, (laughs) I remember her even in middle school, "I can't come, my dad's traveling and my mom really needs me to stay home and watch a movie with her." Right? And I, I know this mom well, it's like, "Ugh, you don't love me, you don't..." Right? I mean, this was... So she became expert at always noticing other people's emotions, and not only noticing them, taking the emotions from them, kind of like taking them into their body and almost metabolizing them for them. That's not guilt, that is taking someone else's emotions and taking them into your body at the expense of taking care of your own needs. And so I have a visual for this, 'cause I think it's really powerful, where let's say it's the situation where a mom is saying, "I, I really want to go out to dinner, but I feel so guilty." First thing, it's just powerful to say, "That is not guilt, it is something else, and it is real and it is powerful, but it is not guilt." What is happening? I'm on one side of a tennis court, like me and you, Andrew, but let's say it's a tennis court, and you're on the other side, or even this, and, like, in between, instead of a net, it's, like, a glass table. Over here, I am here in my desire to go out with my friends because I do value my friendships. Okay. Over there is, you're upset about it, and let's say instead you're my daughter, you're like, "No, no, don't go. No one else can put me to bed." That is definitely hard to deal with, but that is your daughter's feelings. Those are not your feelings, those are your daughter's feelings, and some of us/a lot of us have developed this tendency where we're on this court, and all of a sudden, all those feelings from your side somehow go through that wall and they come to your side, and you call it guilt. It is not guilt. And to me, one of the most liberating things, and this actually relates to empathy, as I always say, is to give that feeling back to its rightful owner, because what that means is if I really give it back, now I have a boundary, "That's my kid's feeling, that's not mine," and I can now actually empathize. People said, "No, I was empathizing, I wasn't going out." No, no, no, no, no, that's not empathy. You weren't going out with your friends because you couldn't handle the distress in your body, you just made your fee- daughter's feelings your own, you just engaged in someone, something almost selfish. This has nothing to do with your daughter. In those situations, that's why we say weird things to our four-year-old, like, "Don't you want mommy to have friends?" I feel like the four-year-old's like, "Why are you asking me that question?" (laughs)

    26. AHAndrew Huberman1:14:25

        (laughs)

    27. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:14:25

        It's like a pilot being like, "Don't you want me to make an emergency landing?" Like, if you need to make an emergency landing, don't ask me for permission.

    28. AHAndrew Huberman1:14:33

        Yeah.

    29. BKDr. Becky Kennedy1:14:33

        Because once I give it back to my daughter, I can do this, I can say, "You really wish I would..."... put you to bed tonight. You're right, it feels so different when grandma does it." "Oh, it does." "I'm going out. It's okay if you're upset. I'll be back and I'll kiss you, and I'll see you in the morning." And then this next part's so important. When you walk out, I don't want any person having any illusion that the daughter's going to be like, "Yes, you go girl." No. She is going to scream. That's okay. Going back to the boundary. You're allowed to take care of your needs, and other people are allowed to be inconvenienced and upset by it. It doesn't mean your needs are wrong, it doesn't mean their feelings are wrong, and it definitely doesn't mean you feel guilty.

    30. AHAndrew Huberman1:15:26

        I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, LMNT. LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need, but nothing you don't. That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium all in the correct ratios, but no sugar. Proper hydration is critical for optimal brain and body function. Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish cognitive and

13. 1:15:46 – 1:18:41

    Sponsors: LMNT & Eight Sleep

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:15:46

       physical performance. It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes. The electrolytes sodium, magnesium, and potassium are vital for the functioning of all the cells in your body, especially your neurons, or your nerve cells. Drinking LMNT dissolved in water makes it extremely easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes. To make sure that I'm getting proper amounts of hydration and electrolytes, I dissolve one packet of LMNT in about 16 to 32 ounces of water when I wake up in the morning, and I drink that basically first thing in the morning. I also drink LMNT dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and therefore losing a lot of water and electrolytes. They have a bunch of different great-tasting flavors of LMNT. They have watermelon, citrus, et cetera. Frankly, I love them all. And now that we're in the winter months in the Northern Hemisphere, LMNT has their chocolate medley flavors back in stock. I really like the chocolate flavors, especially the chocolate mint when it's heated up. So you put it in hot water, and that's a great way to replenish electrolytes and hydrate, especially when it's cold and dry outside when hydration is especially critical. If you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt.com/hubermanlab to claim a free LMNT sample pack with the purchase of any LMNT drink mix. Again, that's drinklmnt.com/hubermanlab to claim a free sample pack. Today's episode is also brought to us by Eight Sleep. Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity. Now, I've spoken many times before on this podcast about the critical need for us to get adequate amounts of quality sleep each night. That's truly the foundation of all mental health, physical health, and performance. And one of the best ways to ensure that you get a great night's sleep is to control the temperature of your sleeping environment. And that's because in order to fall and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop by about one to three degrees. And in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase about one to three degrees. Eight Sleep makes it incredibly easy to control the temperature of your sleeping environment by allowing you to control the temperature of your mattress cover at the beginning, middle, and end of the night. I've been sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover for nearly four years now, and it has completely transformed and improved the quality of my sleep. Eight Sleep has now launched their newest generation of the pod cover, the Pod 4 Ultra. The Pod 4 Ultra has improved cooling and heating capacity, higher fidelity sleep tracking technology, and even has snoring detection that will automatically lift your head a few degrees to improve your airflow and stop your snoring. If you'd like to try an Eight Sleep mattress cover, go to eightsleep.com/huberman to save up to $350 off their Pod 4 Ultra. Eight Sleep currently ships in the USA, Canada, UK, select countries in the EU, and Australia. Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman. Wow. I say wow because, um, I think the lens that you're looking at guilt through and the way you're defining it is so very different than the way it's been discussed ever, and I think this is a super, super important topic.

Episode duration: 3:38:31