Science of Attraction, Compatibility & Romance | Dr. Paul Eastwick

1. 0:00 – 3:25

   Paul Eastwick

   1. PEDr. Paul Eastwick0:00

      When you look at who gets the right swipes and who receives messages on the apps, it's the most popular people. I mean, folks have claimed that it's one of the most unequal markets in the world, but regular acquaintanceship is not nearly so dramatic. I don't think the influence of attractiveness ever goes away, right? There's always gonna be an unlevel playing field to some extent, but the more that people spend time together getting to know each other, it reduces some of those market forces that give the desirable people all the advantages.

   2. AHAndrew Huberman0:37

      [Instrumental music] Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Paul Eastwick, a professor of psychology at the University of California Davis. Today, we discuss the science of attraction, mate selection, and relationships, and I promise you what you are going to hear will surprise you. Paul's research has discovered that much of what you've heard about how people select partners, date, form relationships, even break up or re-partner, is simply wrong, at least when you look at the actual data. For example, his data show that both men and women, when given a choice, select partners that are younger than them. Yes, you heard that right. It's not just men. Men and women equally select partners that are younger than them, given the choice. His data also challenge the idea that financial status is more important to women when looking for male partners. Turns out that when men are looking for female partners, on average, financial status is as important as it is when women are looking for men. And somewhat less surprising, his work shows that indeed dating apps select for qualities that are not the ones that research shows builds lasting partnerships. But he also offers solutions to those that are using dating apps to try and find a partner. Today's discussion is not just about finding a partner. It's also about what solidifies and maintains healthy relationships over time. Again, what the data say about that. Things like physical intimacy being among the very strongest predictors of relationship stability, as well as both partners feeling that no matter who else might be attractive to them, that their partner has unique qualities that no one else can match. So whether you are in a relationship or not, looking for a relationship or not, today's discussion gets into social bonding of all sorts. And repeatedly throughout today's episode, both as it relates to single people looking for a partner or people who are already partnered, we talk about the importance of activities that are done with other people. Could be other couples or other single people, et cetera, and that this is critical for those wanting to meet a partner, and it turns out to be critical for maintaining a healthy long-term relationship. And we'll talk about what the data say about that. Super interesting. So today is not just about the real data of how people rate attractiveness, find partners, and the glue that keeps people happily together. It's about the real-life data and the actions that anyone can take that help you build and sustain excellent romantic and other types of relationships. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Dr. Paul Eastwick.

2. 3:25 – 8:57

   Evolutionary Models of Dating, Mate Value

   1. AHAndrew Huberman3:25

      Dr. Paul Eastwick, welcome.

   2. PEDr. Paul Eastwick3:27

      Thank you so much for having me.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman3:29

      Lot of theories out there, a lot of speculation about attraction, dating, romance, and relationships, which are separable things, of course.

   4. PEDr. Paul Eastwick3:38

      Yeah, yeah.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman3:38

      We'll talk about all of them. But one of the semi-dominant themes in the public narrative, and indeed on many podcasts, is, is kind of anchoring to evolutionary theory, which, to put it really coarsely, is sort of a market-based theory. You know, people even say, "I married up," or, uh-

   6. PEDr. Paul Eastwick3:57

      Yeah

   7. AHAndrew Huberman3:57

      ... you know, and people put quantitative measures on people. They're a six, they're a seven, they're a 10 in this, but a four in that. You know, as a neuroscientist, I hear that, and I immediately go to, and again, this is just purely theoretical, oh, this sounds very limbic. This is very much-

   8. PEDr. Paul Eastwick4:14

      Hmm

   9. AHAndrew Huberman4:14

      ... of like the hypothalamus. This is very much like the kinda thing that you might expect under conditions of like, ooh, um, low food availability. [chuckles]

   10. PEDr. Paul Eastwick4:22

       Yeah.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman4:22

       Low mate availability.

   12. PEDr. Paul Eastwick4:24

       Yeah.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman4:24

       A lot of weapons and a few, and very few laws, uh, you know-

   14. PEDr. Paul Eastwick4:27

       Yeah

   15. AHAndrew Huberman4:27

       ... to, to regulate violence or something, meaning men will, will, uh, harm each other in order to get access to mates. Women will, um, be deceptive. This is the whole idea. And you step back and you go, "Well, that's not the world we live in now." We have a forebrain. We can make choices. We can be strategic in the direction of benevolence. We can think about kindness. And so to me, it seems we need a revision, or at least a better understanding of what's actually true in 2026 and forward. So if you would, what are your thoughts about what is not true, based on the data, and perhaps what is true about this, quote unquote, "evolutionary model of dating relationships" and so on?

   16. PEDr. Paul Eastwick5:07

       The marketplace ideas, I think they definitely have their place, and it derives from a, a sensible evolutionary perspective, like what you're describing. I think it describes well what happens in initial attraction settings when people are really meeting for the first time. There's this class demo that I do in my undergraduate classes. A lot of people use this demo, and what you do is you have a bunch of your students put a number on their foreheads, and they sort of hold it up so that they can't see it, but other people can. And you tell the students, "Your goal is to pair up with the highest value person that you can. And you don't know what your number is, but I'm gonna count to five, and then I want you all to stroll around the room and try to make mating offers to folks." And what you see is that the people who have been randomly assigned a low number, they start to panic because what happens is that nobody will talk to them.

   17. AHAndrew Huberman6:13

       And this is random.

   18. PEDr. Paul Eastwick6:14

       Yeah. Uh, totally random.

   19. AHAndrew Huberman6:15

       Yeah. Otherwise, it'd be very unethical to do.

   20. PEDr. Paul Eastwick6:17

       Right, right, right, exactly. [laughs]

   21. AHAndrew Huberman6:17

       And also, who would decide? But, okay.

   22. PEDr. Paul Eastwick6:18

       But people don't like it.

   23. AHAndrew Huberman6:19

       Mm-hmm.

   24. PEDr. Paul Eastwick6:20

       I mean, if you get a low number-

   25. AHAndrew Huberman6:21

       Mm-hmm

   26. PEDr. Paul Eastwick6:21

       ... it's not an enjoyable experience. And I think there is a parallel to what people are experiencing as they're growing up, or maybe even if they're a little older and they're going to a party and they haven't met anybody there. So this is an analogy for how people internalize and, you know, act upon something that we call mate value, and it's, it's like what you describe. It's supposedly linked to traits that reflect your core desirability, like maybe your physical attractiveness, but it- it could be other related traits, too. It could be things like the size of your bank account or your status. What we tend to see is that when people are meeting for the first time, this is, um, a reasonable facsimile of how people behave. But interesting things tend to happen when people get to know each other over a little bit more time. What then tends to happen is that that agreement that is required for that study to work, that study only works 'cause you can read the numbers on people's foreheads, but if I were to blur that number, we wouldn't see as much pairing up. It wouldn't be as sad and [laughs] as difficult for the people with low numbers. And in real life, that's kinda what tends to happen. We stop agreeing about who the eights are and who the fives are, and people might on average say that you're a six, but if I've gotten to know you over time, it means there's a chance I think you're a nine. There's also a chance I think you're a three. And so that increase in idiosyncrasy and variability I think is a really fortunate thing, and it's the thing that's gonna allow a lot of partners to find each other, uh, even if they're not consensually the most desirable people.

   27. AHAndrew Huberman8:17

       Consensually meaning in the eyes of others.

   28. PEDr. Paul Eastwick8:20

       Right. Right, right, right. So even if on average people think, oh, you're kinda middling, with enough time people are more likely to find, okay, but, okay, y'all think I'm a five, but she thinks I'm a 10. And then what you're kinda crossing your fingers for are these moments where, and I think she's a 10, too. And it's this, uh, level of sort of disagreement or the emergence of what we might compa- call compatibility that I think is, it's been missing from the evolutionary narratives. But I think it plays a core part in explaining how couples get together as well.

3. 8:57 – 12:56

   Initial Attraction, Maturity

   1. AHAndrew Huberman8:57

      Wow. Um, so many things come to mind. Uh, the first thing that comes to mind is the question, you know, who and what are others looking at?

   2. PEDr. Paul Eastwick9:05

      Yeah.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman9:05

      It seems like one of the more, I- I wanna use the word immature, but let's say less evolved, not in the evolutionary biology-

   4. PEDr. Paul Eastwick9:12

      Yeah

   5. AHAndrew Huberman9:12

      ... context, but kind of like life maturation sense, like less evolved aspects of self is when we are not thinking about what we actually like and don't like, but we're paying a lot of attention to what other people like and dislike-

   6. PEDr. Paul Eastwick9:24

      Yeah

   7. AHAndrew Huberman9:25

      ... as a barometer of what we should do or not do. Now of course, that can be very informative in healthy ways, but when it really comes down to it, it's a potentially very toxic aspect of human nature, right? So what I, what I hear you saying is that at some point there's this kind of, um, dating romance and relational maturity that people come to where they're really able to sense what they actually like and they're able to put the blinders up to how other people are necessarily behaving. Like are, does everyone like this person?

   8. PEDr. Paul Eastwick9:58

      Yeah.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman9:58

      Do they not like this person? And the, the words that come to mind, two words, are junior high. Like the junior high school dance-

   10. PEDr. Paul Eastwick10:04

       Uh-huh

   11. AHAndrew Huberman10:04

       ... for a number of reasons-

   12. PEDr. Paul Eastwick10:05

       Yes

   13. AHAndrew Huberman10:06

       ... is kinda the first time when, you know, most kids are starting to hit puberty or somewhere in puberty, ab- at that phase, and so there's a lot of recognition of others, and kinda like who is cool, who's not cool, who's getting attention, who's not getting attention, seems to surface first in junior high.

   14. PEDr. Paul Eastwick10:21

       Yeah.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman10:21

       And admittedly, we're all pretty immature in junior high.

   16. PEDr. Paul Eastwick10:23

       That, that's my memory. [laughs]

   17. AHAndrew Huberman10:23

       Yeah, exactly.

   18. PEDr. Paul Eastwick10:24

       Junior high. [laughs]

   19. AHAndrew Huberman10:24

       So has this been looked at in, in a structured way? For instance, are there adults who are, um, good-

   20. PEDr. Paul Eastwick10:33

       Mm

   21. AHAndrew Huberman10:33

       ... at ignoring what you c- you know, what the consensus is, and are, are they able to find mates and, and set up relationships more readily than people who are paying a lot of attention to what other people like and don't like?

   22. PEDr. Paul Eastwick10:45

       Yes. I'm, I am sure that there's considerable individual variability in how people react to what's going on around them. Sometimes you see this phenomenon called mate choice copying, but what that essentially means is that, you know, you kinda look to see who's attracted to somebody in my, uh, you know, uh, is everybody attracted to this person? Well, there must be some signal there. I'll sorta follow that. I totally agree. It's a very junior high way of thinking about this whole process. But I think a lot of what is happening is that if people are spending time together, and I, I often go back to thinking about what is it like when we're hanging out in mixed gender groups if you're heterosexual. So we're spending time together, and maybe for whatever reason, I happen to spend more time with this person. We find something interesting to chat about. I see her reacting in situations that other people don't get to see. And so the particular time that I spend with her ends up being the material that I use that causes my opinion to diverge from everybody else's. So everybody else might be like, "Uh, she's not all that great." And I think, but you weren't there when we were hanging out

   23. AHAndrew Huberman12:08

       Talking about, you know, some family challenges that I had. I'm trying to put myself back in like [laughs] what, what were the things we would've been frustrated about in high school. But in, you know, talking about like problems at school or problems with other friends, like she was supportive and listened to me, and then I was supportive and I listened to her, and that reciprocity through a unique experience with another person, a lot of times this is where initial attraction comes from. It sounds a little squishy. It doesn't sound like the sexy form of attraction that we often think about, but what we see in our work is a lot of times this is how it happens. It, it takes a little while, but attraction can form when two people spend that time together sort of pulling unique things out of each other.

4. 12:56 – 15:21

   Sponsors: David & Lingo

   1. AHAndrew Huberman12:57

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5. 15:21 – 24:17

   Dating Apps; Shared Moments & Developing Attraction

   1. AHAndrew Huberman15:22

      It's interesting. I'm thinking about, um, movies. Yeah. And, um, admittedly I haven't seen that many romantic comedies, but there's some very- Zero double ... but there's some pretty awesome... I've seen a, a few of them. Uh, but there's some awesome movies about this issue. Yeah. And I'll offer some examples that will date myself. Um- I'm ready ... but that seem to fall into at least three bins. One is, "You're awesome. I'm awesome. Let's get together." All right? Nowadays, I think regardless of music taste, I think the kind of, uh, like royally celebrated couple is not a royal couple. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Incidentally. I would say it's like the Taylor Swift- Yeah ... Kelsey couple. Yeah. People, like, people are like, "They're both winners." Yeah. "They're both super attractive." Yeah. "They're both super successful." And, you know, whether you like the Chiefs or you don't, whether or not you like her music or you don't, you're like- Yeah, yeah ... you're like, they're like- You're happy for them [laughs] ... two, like, badass winners pairing up. Exactly. [laughs] And it's very hard to say anything except like, "Wow, they totally, quote-unquote 'belong together.'" Yeah, yeah. Right? There's just sort of... So there's that pairing, and you can find that in movies. And, uh, all the, like, '80s, like, um, uh, John Hughes movies centered around this. Yeah, yeah. Like the, um, and then broke that model. Right. We'll go back to that. The other one would be, yeah, the breaking of that model, the, like, the, this is very '80s, but the kind of like the athlete, you know, pairs up with the nerd. Yeah. Right? Okay. Now we, nowadays we have athlete nerds. Yeah. And so it doesn't work quite as well. And then the third model is the like, "Well, you're screwed up and I'm screwed up, but we're really good people." Yeah. Like you get True Romance, the movie True Romance. Yep, yep. Which is an amazing movie, right? You know, she was a, you know, not by her own choice apparently, like she was, she's like, "I've been a prostitute for three, call girl for three days," and he's like, "Well, I, you know, someone paid for you to be on this date with me." They fall in love. They leave their professions, right? Yeah. And they go and they go on this sort of semi-crime spree, um, that really, uh, demonstrates their immense love and devotion to one another. Yeah. And the whole notion is like, "You're so cool." They both think the other person is super cool. Yeah. Don't care about their pasts, and kind of enjoy the fact- Right ... that they're both kinda from w- uh, hardscrabble backgrounds. Right. So then there's that. And what's so different about that kind of model compared to like today where I hear, 'cause I, so I don't have a lot to offer about personal experience on apps many years ago- Yeah ... but it's been a while, is this notion that like everyone, you hear this, everyone's competing for the same small number of people. Right. So it seems like even those, the, those three cliche models that are presented in a number of movies, they exist. It's like, since when did, is everyone thinking that they're supposed to pair up with the same small number of people? This is like ridiculous. Yeah. That's like saying everyone's supposed to like the same top three songs- Yeah ... even though you might not even like that genre of music. Yeah. That's, that's, um, insanity. Yeah. Uh, the apps

   2. PEDr. Paul Eastwick18:15

      Absolutely pull for this. So when you look at who gets the right swipes and who receives messages on the apps, it's the most popular people. I mean, folks have claimed that it's one of the most unequal markets in the world. I mean, it's basically a kleptocracy, the extent to which-

   3. AHAndrew Huberman18:35

      Kleptocracy?

   4. PEDr. Paul Eastwick18:35

      Yeah, kleptocracy, right, the extent to which it's skewed, right? That there's, like, you know, "the rich," quote, unquote, who have all the, you know, who, who get all the r- all the, the right swipes at the top. But regular acquaintanceship is not nearly so dramatic. So, you know, one example that I, I like to use is that i- if our job was just to evaluate whether somebody standing in front of us was hot or not, and it was somebody that we'd, like, interacted with briefly, and we're making just simple binary judgments, you and I are gonna agree about, like, two-thirds of the time. So that's, that's better than 50/50, but it's far from 100%. I, I think, actually, that would surprise a lot of people. There's a reasonable amount of disagreement there. That's already starting to set the stage for us not necessarily pursuing the most appealing person, because if there's disagreement, that means there's a chance that, well, you're gonna go for this person, I'm gonna go for that person, and it, it levels out the playing field somewhat. I don't think the influence of attractiveness ever goes away, right? There's always gonna be an unlevel playing field to some extent, but the more that people spend time together getting to know each other, it reduces some of those, you know, uh, tho- those market forces that give the desirable people all the advantages.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman20:04

      Yeah, the reason junior high school seems so dreadful-

   6. PEDr. Paul Eastwick20:08

      Yeah

   7. AHAndrew Huberman20:08

      ... in my memory.

   8. PEDr. Paul Eastwick20:08

      Yeah.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman20:08

      I mean, I had a good time in junior high school, but it, it was a, a largely, at least for me, the fact that people in my peer group, 'cause it was a pretty broad age range, were, were still, um, among the guys, were hitting puberty at different rates.

   10. PEDr. Paul Eastwick20:21

       Yeah.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman20:22

       So, like, a game of soccer that at one time was pretty even, uh, with respect to who could play well, like, suddenly you're playing against what felt like a grown man.

   12. PEDr. Paul Eastwick20:31

       Yeah.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman20:31

       There was actually a kid, uh, uh-

   14. PEDr. Paul Eastwick20:32

       Yeah

   15. AHAndrew Huberman20:33

       ... in our town who, I don't wanna give up his name, who, I think he went on to... I don't ever think he became a professional soccer player, but he was just, he was, like, fully developed-

   16. PEDr. Paul Eastwick20:41

       Yeah

   17. AHAndrew Huberman20:41

       ... by the eighth grade. He had, like, facial hair-

   18. PEDr. Paul Eastwick20:43

       Yeah

   19. AHAndrew Huberman20:43

       ... and he was fast, and he had, like, legs like tree trunks, and he could move. And I mean, it was just completely dangerous to have him out on the field-

   20. PEDr. Paul Eastwick20:49

       Yeah

   21. AHAndrew Huberman20:49

       ... with the rest of us.

   22. PEDr. Paul Eastwick20:50

       Yeah.

   23. AHAndrew Huberman20:50

       Right? And he was respected, adored, admired, like, and it was very context-dependent. This was the other thing that I was gonna say. I think you and I are both scientists, so, uh, y- coming up you spent a lot of time in labs.

   24. PEDr. Paul Eastwick21:01

       Yeah.

   25. AHAndrew Huberman21:02

       I'll never forget, there was a romance in a neighboring lab, um, that none of us understood. Like, none of us understood.

   26. PEDr. Paul Eastwick21:09

       That's funny.

   27. AHAndrew Huberman21:09

       And I remember asking my friend, who was in this pairing, and he said the attraction for him, although she was also a- attractive, but the, the, the hook was her prowess at aliquoting. So there's this thing you do with antibodies in labs where they come in, and you have to put them into-

   28. PEDr. Paul Eastwick21:26

       Oh, yes

   29. AHAndrew Huberman21:26

       ... the little thing so that it, you know, it frees out a little bit. And apparently-

   30. PEDr. Paul Eastwick21:29

       It's really hard.
6. 24:17 – 31:41

   First Impressions & Early Relationships; Partner Bias

   1. PEDr. Paul Eastwick24:17

      doing more with.

   2. AHAndrew Huberman24:19

      I'd like to divide this process that we call dating, romance, relationships-

   3. PEDr. Paul Eastwick24:23

      Yeah, yeah

   4. AHAndrew Huberman24:23

      ... et cetera, into some pieces that may or may not be the right way to segment it.

   5. PEDr. Paul Eastwick24:28

      Yeah.

   6. AHAndrew Huberman24:28

      So, so please, um, change any of what I'm about to, you know, uh, toss out. We're talking about impressions-

   7. PEDr. Paul Eastwick24:34

      Yeah

   8. AHAndrew Huberman24:35

      ... that either seed or don't seed desire for more time-

   9. PEDr. Paul Eastwick24:39

      Yeah

   10. AHAndrew Huberman24:39

       ... as our interest.

   11. PEDr. Paul Eastwick24:40

       Yeah.

   12. AHAndrew Huberman24:41

       And then the, I'll just broadly separate with compatibility over time.

   13. PEDr. Paul Eastwick24:44

       Yeah.

   14. AHAndrew Huberman24:45

       So let's spend some time on impressions that lead to desire.

   15. PEDr. Paul Eastwick24:49

       Yeah.

   16. AHAndrew Huberman24:49

       Which ones are meaningful, which ones aren't, and which ones can be a bit misleading. I think most people are probably more intuitive about those if they're really honest.

   17. PEDr. Paul Eastwick24:57

       Yeah.

   18. AHAndrew Huberman24:57

       Like what they find, who they find attractive, who they'd be willing to admit they find attractive if you remove all the other social inputs-

   19. PEDr. Paul Eastwick25:04

       Yeah

   20. AHAndrew Huberman25:04

       ... and so on. But the compatibility over time piece is the one that is really hard. If you just look at the statistics on marriage-

   21. PEDr. Paul Eastwick25:11

       Right

   22. AHAndrew Huberman25:11

       ... let alone the statistics on, you know, other relationships.

   23. PEDr. Paul Eastwick25:14

       Yeah.

   24. AHAndrew Huberman25:15

       It's not a bleak picture, but the numbers don't play out into if people get together and make the commitment, most of the time it works out. It unfortunately doesn't seem to be that way, or maybe who knows, fortunately. But so impressions leading to desire. Given that many of the people listening to this will, uh, they'll be thinking about their own history with their current partner, or are seeking a partner, or maybe not, what do the data say about what people are picking up on as really valid cues that drive real desire? As opposed to the-

   25. PEDr. Paul Eastwick25:47

       Yeah

   26. AHAndrew Huberman25:48

       ... the BS about like, well, everyone else thought they were great, gr- or the great on paper kind of thing.

   27. PEDr. Paul Eastwick25:52

       Yeah. The early phases especially are just naturally filled with a lot of uncertainty, and I think this is a bummer for a lot of people because it can feel like you're really into somebody, or like they're really into me, and then it turns on a dime. So part of that is about, like, searching for signals, trying to resolve the uncertainty. And the problem is that it's not like, oh, if I get sufficient evidence that you're smart, that's gonna do it, or if I get sufficient evidence that you're really good at aliquoting, that's gonna do it. What people are, I think, trying to do is they're trying to figure out, like, do I feel enough of something for you that I want to continue this, that I wanna keep going?

   28. AHAndrew Huberman26:36

       Spark.

   29. PEDr. Paul Eastwick26:36

       Yes. And that, but I don't wanna act like, 'cause sometimes when people think about the spark, what they think is, oh, it's gotta be there right away, and I've already gotta be feeling 100 for this person, right? I gotta be at the top of the scale. That actually isn't what happens on average. Typically, if you, if you look at what most relationships look like and you look back at the beginning, the, the typical first impression is middling. That's how we feel at first. Middling, just kind of, I don't know, middle of the sky, you know, that seemed all right. You know, it was fine. And then we interacted again.

   30. AHAndrew Huberman27:06

       Not bad, not over the top.
7. 31:41 – 42:15

   Friends & Family Support; Relationship Research, Attachment Theory

   1. PEDr. Paul Eastwick31:41

      can be very hard to salvage.

   2. AHAndrew Huberman31:43

      The statement has been made by someone I know and trust about all things in life, all things in life, not just relationships, but certainly including them, that if people just treated their taste in people, in music, in art, in experiences the same way they treated their taste in food-

   3. PEDr. Paul Eastwick32:07

      Yeah

   4. AHAndrew Huberman32:07

      ... everyone would be a lot better off.

   5. PEDr. Paul Eastwick32:09

      Uh-huh. [laughs]

   6. AHAndrew Huberman32:10

      Meaning if one has the impression that they really like something, they really like this person, then just go for it. I mean, unless there's some sort of danger they're not aware of.

   7. PEDr. Paul Eastwick32:22

      Yeah. Right.

   8. AHAndrew Huberman32:22

      Okay? And which... And we'll talk about consensus-

   9. PEDr. Paul Eastwick32:25

      Yeah

   10. AHAndrew Huberman32:25

       ... communicating danger. Separate, separate issue, but it crosses into this online dating thing based on a lot of, uh, conversations I've had with young men and women. But music, you hear it, you either like it or you don't. We don't tend to have a hard time defending our stance on those things. But when it comes to relationships, it's almost like we're-- many people are walking around with a little or a lot of that junior high narrative in their-

   11. PEDr. Paul Eastwick32:52

       Yeah

   12. AHAndrew Huberman32:52

       ... in their mind, not necessarily be- with somebody that they can't stand because everyone else thinks they're great. I think that's pretty rare. Probably happens, but it's pretty rare. But at these early stages that you study, th- they're navigating that process in a way where they're not in tune with their own taste. They're integrating all this other information in a way-

   13. PEDr. Paul Eastwick33:13

       Yeah

   14. AHAndrew Huberman33:13

       ... that's not helpful. It's not protecting them. In fact, it's, it's just clouding the signal. It's noise, right? In the signal-to-noise model, like, it's-

   15. PEDr. Paul Eastwick33:21

       Yeah

   16. AHAndrew Huberman33:21

       ... noise. It's just pure noise.

   17. PEDr. Paul Eastwick33:23

       Yeah.

   18. AHAndrew Huberman33:23

       And as a consequence, people are wasting their time and other people's time.

   19. PEDr. Paul Eastwick33:28

       Yeah.

   20. AHAndrew Huberman33:28

       And n- I don't believe everyone's trying to waste each other's time. It just seems that we're conditioned to do this.

   21. PEDr. Paul Eastwick33:36

       Yeah.

   22. AHAndrew Huberman33:37

       And I will say, it does take a pretty strong person to say, "Listen, I know that's what you see. I know that's what they say, but like-

   23. PEDr. Paul Eastwick33:48

       Yeah

   24. AHAndrew Huberman33:48

       ... this person's great, like, they're right for me." And when people do that, in general, people tend to back off.

   25. PEDr. Paul Eastwick33:53

       Yeah.

   26. AHAndrew Huberman33:53

       And of course, there's Shakespeare about this, right?

   27. PEDr. Paul Eastwick33:56

       Yeah. Yeah, right.

   28. AHAndrew Huberman33:57

       But that tends to be cultural pressure of like, "No, you two can't be together."

   29. PEDr. Paul Eastwick34:01

       Yeah.

   30. AHAndrew Huberman34:01

       Or the parents don't want it, or one set of parents.
8. 42:15 – 43:34

   Sponsor: AG1

   1. PEDr. Paul Eastwick42:15

      eventually.

   2. AHAndrew Huberman42:17

      I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1. AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also includes prebiotics and adaptogens. I discovered AG1 way back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast, and I've been taking it every day since. The reason I started taking AG1 and the reason I still take it every day is because AG1 is, to my knowledge, the highest quality and most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on the market. AG1 is designed to support things like gut health, immune health, and overall energy, and it does so by helping to fill any gaps that you might have in your daily nutrition. I get asked pretty much all the time, "If I could only take one supplement, what should that supplement be?" And my answer is always AG1. It has just been so helpful for supporting all aspects of physical health, mental health, and performance. If you would like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a special offer. For a limited time, AG1 is giving away a free bottle of their new omega-3 coenzyme Q10 product. Omega-3 and coenzyme Q10 are known to support cardiovascular health, cellular health and energy generally, brain health, and much more. I personally take them both every day. Again, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a free bottle of the new omega-3 coenzyme Q10 with your first

9. 43:34 – 47:35

   Couple Friends, Advice from Others

   1. AHAndrew Huberman43:34

      AG1 subscription. Seems to me that barring, um, again, like an emotional or physical safety issue, the less that couples are talking to other people besides a trained therapist- Yeah ... if they choose to do that- Yeah ... maybe not even doing that, about their relationship, probably the more protected their relationship is- Oh, that's interesting ... from the, the darts of, uh, envious people. Yeah. Um, the unhelpful positive comments from people, right? Yeah. 'Cause there could be instances where a relationship is really flagging and, and someone doesn't disclose that- Yeah ... and they, they don't really understand what's going on, and were they not to share that, then, you know, everyone's, it's getting all this positive input, and they think, "Well, I think this is just how it's supposed to go." Yeah. So there's the suffering in silence piece. Yep. We wanna ... I, I don't think that's good. But there's the kind of, um, going out for external assessment piece. And as I say this, I, you know, it's, it's funny, because we, you're at UC Davis, and I did my PhD there. I was just remembering, like, when you pick projects in graduate school, you get some consensus about what's a good project. Yeah. But so much of becoming a good scientist is kinda learning to put up the middle finger and just keep going. Yeah. As the, the sort of pressure test of doing science- Yeah ... is people going, "Well, that's, is that really that interesting?" And you don't really know how much to pay attention to it, and it kinda pays to be a little bit- Yep ... bulldog-ish and just go, "Yeah, I don't know," uh, like, and just ignore it- Yeah ... and just keep going. I can say this is also true in any kind of creative endeavor or public-facing life. Yeah. Like, it doesn't make good adaptive sense to pay too much attention, but nobody wants- Yeah ... to be the person that, like, steps in it or does something really stupid. But in relationships, when, if something feels good, maybe we shouldn't be going out and getting, you know, putting our finger in the wind- Yeah ... to get input. So it's fascinating, 'cause I mentioned earlier that, right, the, the extent to which you feel at least like the people around you have your relationship's back, that's a useful thing. But I think that probably isn't happening through a process of, uh, yeah, like pseudo-therapy. I wanna talk to my friends about my relationship. Or at least to the extent that that is happening, I bet you're right. That has some real risks. I think probably the good version of this process, or the one that I would advocate for, comes from research looking at, like, couple friends or, like, double date nights. So I'm not asking you for input on my relationship, but in effect, I'm asking you and maybe your partner to experience our relationship in real time by hanging out together, the four of us. And so that can often feel like validation without explicitly asking for it, and I think that can often be a very good thing, and there's research showing that, you know, generally couples who feel like they have couple friends and are embedded in networks like that, that, that generally tends to go well on average. Um, so yeah, I would think about it that way. It's like you can feel that you have the support of the people around you without directly asking [laughs] for their assessment of your relationship, 'cause the reality is other people don't know. And this is hard as a judge. Because when I encounter couples, and I have friends who are in relationships, it is so tempting to look at that relationship and think like, "Man, like, she shouldn't have done that," or, "I don't know. If, if I were her, I wouldn't stand for this." But I'm not in that relationship. So unless you are a therapist and they're coming to you for therapy, I, I find it useful to try to resist that impulse, because a relationship is this vast, deep store of information that two people have, and often we're not privy

10. 47:35 – 55:05

    Social Support, Women vs Men

    1. AHAndrew Huberman47:35

       to what's really going on there. Yeah, I'm going back to junior high school again. Yeah. [laughs] And I can remember at this one dance- I hope this isn't traumatic. [laughs] No, no, it's not. Not at all. But we had this, uh, all-girls school in our, in our town- Yeah ... Castilleja School- Yeah ... which was a boarding school. And so their dances were the best because they'd invite people from other schools. Yeah. But all the guys were really excited to go, right? Yeah. 'Cause the numbers were really, like, worked out really well, and our favor- Oh, got it. Yeah, yeah, yeah ... 'cause women and, and, and, uh, boys and girls- Yeah ... it was an all school, right- Right ... would go to these dances, but that means you just have, like, an outsized pool of people. So everyone got someone- Yeah ... to dance with at some point. This is what mattered in the seventh grade, right? Yep. But there were these people, I, I have to say, there were these individuals who were not going through the admittedly, like, tense challenge of- Yeah ... first dance, first slow dance. This was before phones, and it was- Yeah ... tense then, too. Yeah. And they weren't doing any of that. What were they doing? They were running around telling people about who was doing what- Yeah ... and who was doing that. And I remember thinking at the time, I mean, I'm no psychologist then or now, but thinking like, "They're avoiding the whole thing." Yeah. This is like going to a soccer game, and instead of playing soccer, they're, like, critiquing people from the sidelines- Yeah ... 'cause it's a lot easier to do that than to actually get out there- Than be in the game. [laughs] ... and risk, and risk mis- you know, like, being the goalie that lets the, the winning shot through. Yeah. And I remember thinking like, "These people are really, uh, really corrosive Um, one or two in particular. I don't know whatever became of them.

    2. PEDr. Paul Eastwick48:59

       Yeah.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman48:59

       Hopefully they're doing well in their lives, they got over this. But those people exist throughout life.

    4. PEDr. Paul Eastwick49:04

       Yeah.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman49:04

       Meaning they're rarely the people that are happy in their own relationship life. Now, I have to say, it's probably a Y chromosome-linked disorder, but I assume that my friends who are in, male friends who are in a relationship, if they're still in the relationship, that it's going great.

    6. PEDr. Paul Eastwick49:19

       That's funny.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman49:19

       There's not a lot of feedback.

    8. PEDr. Paul Eastwick49:20

       Yeah. Yeah.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman49:20

       Like, there's not a whole lot of feedback exchange.

    10. PEDr. Paul Eastwick49:23

        Right.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman49:23

        That said, if something were really, like, really off, I assume that they would bring it up, but probably not to me.

    12. PEDr. Paul Eastwick49:29

        Yeah.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman49:30

        Like, there's, there, I do think that there's probably a sex difference here, and these things are changing now.

    14. PEDr. Paul Eastwick49:35

        Yeah.

    15. AHAndrew Huberman49:35

        But I think that there's not a lot of sitting around talking about how well or poorly the relationship is going. It's sort of like, you know, you ask about somebody's spouse, like, "How are they doing?" And they go, "Yeah, great." Like, "We-

    16. PEDr. Paul Eastwick49:44

        Yeah

    17. AHAndrew Huberman49:44

        ... we did this this weekend." There's not a whole lot of, "Yeah, we, we had this one moment of exchange that was kinda sticky. Can I get your input on it?"

    18. PEDr. Paul Eastwick49:49

        Yeah.

    19. AHAndrew Huberman49:49

        Like, that's not happening. That's just not happening, at least not in my life.

    20. PEDr. Paul Eastwick49:53

        I'm glad you brought up these gender differences because I think you're hitting on one that, at least, again, as a relationships researcher, I would sit here and say, "I think this is the big one." And the big one is that women generally are better at cultivating social support from all corners of their lives, not just their romantic partner, whereas for men, it's largely their romantic partner.

    21. AHAndrew Huberman50:20

        Hmm.

    22. PEDr. Paul Eastwick50:20

        That's where they're getting most of their support, intimacy needs met, probably the person who, at least for a while, is mostly in their corner, and this is why you see across the full range of, uh, the arc of a relationship that men are always a little bit more eager than women. And-

    23. AHAndrew Huberman50:39

        Eager in what sense?

    24. PEDr. Paul Eastwick50:40

        Eager in, in all the ways. I want to be in this relationship in the first place. I'm more likely to say, "I love you" first. I'm more, uh, I'm more likely to wanna be exclusive. I'm more likely to wanna take things to the next level.

    25. AHAndrew Huberman50:51

        Men are more willing to do that.

    26. PEDr. Paul Eastwick50:52

        Men. Men across the board.

    27. AHAndrew Huberman50:53

        This runs countercurrent to all this stuff about-

    28. PEDr. Paul Eastwick50:55

        Yeah, uh-

    29. AHAndrew Huberman50:55

        ... men being non-committal.

    30. PEDr. Paul Eastwick50:56

        Yeah, right. So, like, the, I don't, uh, uh, I, I don't, th- this is what, uh, there's, like, new review papers on this that are really compelling, and it's, like, kinda the same effect size across the board, which is how we talk about, you know, how big is the sex difference. You know, it's, it's medium size, but it's just right there all the way through. Through, through breaking up, who, who wants, who's more likely to wanna break up? It's women who are more likely to wanna break up.
11. 55:05 – 1:05:29

    Dating App Algorithms, Distrust of Men & Women

    1. PEDr. Paul Eastwick55:05

       had to go to that, I, I could.

    2. AHAndrew Huberman55:07

       Yeah, I'm talking about memes and internet themes, and I have to be careful doing that because I don't wanna put too much weight on the, uh, the direction of those things and what they really mean. Now, the science is what I'm interested in, but, you know, I think, um, most guys would probably say that that scene in that movie, The Town, where, uh, Ben Affleck walks in and says, you know, "Listen, y- y- yeah, we gotta do something. People are gonna get hurt. We gotta do this," and, you know, like, and you can't talk to anybody, and his friend's only response is, "Who's driving?"

    3. PEDr. Paul Eastwick55:36

       Yeah.

    4. AHAndrew Huberman55:37

       Is, is kind of like the essence of what a lot of men want and kind of idealize male friendship as.

    5. PEDr. Paul Eastwick55:42

       Yeah.

    6. AHAndrew Huberman55:42

       Like, are we gonna go bury a body or create one, and like-

    7. PEDr. Paul Eastwick55:45

       Yeah.

    8. AHAndrew Huberman55:45

       And, and there's a... And it's just that, it's the loyalty. It's the-

    9. PEDr. Paul Eastwick55:47

       Yeah

    10. AHAndrew Huberman55:47

        ... trust. There's a lot that's encapsulated in that. It's a bad, quote-unquote, "badass scene," right?

    11. PEDr. Paul Eastwick55:52

        Yeah.

    12. AHAndrew Huberman55:52

        They're about, but they're about to do something real bad.

    13. PEDr. Paul Eastwick55:53

        Right, right.

    14. AHAndrew Huberman55:54

        I don't recommend that. [laughs]

    15. PEDr. Paul Eastwick55:54

        Right. [laughs]

    16. AHAndrew Huberman55:55

        Right? That's not the friend test you want. I know people-

    17. PEDr. Paul Eastwick55:57

        Please don't. [laughs]

    18. AHAndrew Huberman55:57

        ... who've used that as the friend test, and they paid dearly for it.

    19. PEDr. Paul Eastwick56:00

        Yeah, right.

    20. AHAndrew Huberman56:00

        But the point is that friends who aren't gonna ask too many questions, th- they can hold in the center of their, uh, mind, without any long preamble, that your friend needs something, and you'll do whatever it is that they need because you love them.

    21. PEDr. Paul Eastwick56:19

        Yeah.

    22. AHAndrew Huberman56:19

        I think that that's what's the deeper layer of it.

    23. PEDr. Paul Eastwick56:21

        Yes. Yeah, exactly.

    24. AHAndrew Huberman56:23

        Uh, for me, I'm realizing there, I have this, like, sense that there's a, um, a big contradiction, not in the scientific literature, but in the public perception-

    25. PEDr. Paul Eastwick56:32

        Yeah

    26. AHAndrew Huberman56:32

        ... which is this: I feel like one common narrative these days is, "Look, men failed. They just failed." Like, they didn't step up, right?

    27. PEDr. Paul Eastwick56:44

        Yeah.

    28. AHAndrew Huberman56:44

        They weren't committal. You know, we have to take care of them. They live much longer in a relationship. We-

    29. PEDr. Paul Eastwick56:49

        Yeah

    30. AHAndrew Huberman56:49

        ... die much earlier.
12. 1:05:29 – 1:11:25

    Activities & Dating, Observing Date Social Behavior

    1. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:05:29

       know, uh, on, on average at least.

    2. AHAndrew Huberman1:05:31

       In light of the apps, social media, this divide, I, I'm very grateful that you're bringing up this notion of spending time in small groups.

    3. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:05:39

       Yeah.

    4. AHAndrew Huberman1:05:40

       Probably around certain activities. Could be pickleball, could be a barbecue.

    5. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:05:44

       Sure.

    6. AHAndrew Huberman1:05:44

       Could be, I mean, that's how people used to meet.

    7. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:05:46

       Yeah.

    8. AHAndrew Huberman1:05:46

       You know? Sometimes there's work adjacency. I mean, I think that one of the reasons the Coldplay thing went so viral is that the woman was head of HR.

    9. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:05:54

       Yeah.

    10. AHAndrew Huberman1:05:54

        And so there were a number of things that were ethical violations independent of, like, they tried to kinda rescue it, like, but w- they were in love and their marriages were failing, and people were like, "There are violations down the line-

    11. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:06:04

        Yeah

    12. AHAndrew Huberman1:06:04

        ... on this," right?

    13. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:06:05

        Yeah.

    14. AHAndrew Huberman1:06:05

        You know, in laboratories, many people coupled up-

    15. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:06:08

        Yeah

    16. AHAndrew Huberman1:06:08

        ... in laboratories. Uh, you know, my advisors were always like really adamant that no one should do that. I listened.

    17. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:06:13

        Oh, interesting.

    18. AHAndrew Huberman1:06:14

        Oh, yeah.

    19. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:06:14

        So they tried to lock it down.

    20. AHAndrew Huberman1:06:16

        This was lo- I mean, in graduate school, I, I worked alone in the lab.

    21. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:06:18

        Yeah.

    22. AHAndrew Huberman1:06:18

        But my graduate advisor actually, uh, suggested I not even date within our graduate program. This is peer-to-peer. I was a graduate student. And for the most part, I, I obeyed, but I was so focused on work.

    23. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:06:28

        Yeah.

    24. AHAndrew Huberman1:06:29

        And, and I guess it happened with like you'd go to meetings, you'd meet other graduate students, so it was really peer-to-peer.

    25. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:06:33

        Yeah.

    26. AHAndrew Huberman1:06:34

        In my postdoctoral laboratory, my advisor was like vocal to everyone, like, "No dating in the lab." And of course, there are certain married couples nowadays with kids, several of them, in fact-

    27. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:06:44

        Yeah

    28. AHAndrew Huberman1:06:44

        ... that met in the lab just by proximity, interest, and who knows? Aliquoting prowess. Who knows? Um-

    29. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:06:48

        Somebody out there-

    30. AHAndrew Huberman1:06:49

        Somebody out there
13. 1:11:25 – 1:16:15

    Texting, Verbal Skills

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:11:25

       has other plans for her.

    2. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:11:26

       Yeah.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:11:26

       But it gets to this thing that I had written down 'cause I wanted to ask about next, which is this notion of texting in particular, so not even apps. But let's just say it's migrated-

    4. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:11:37

       Yeah

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:11:37

       ... off app or people meet, they exchange number, and there- there's some texting, right?

    6. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:11:41

       Yeah.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:11:41

       And this notion of, of the kind of unique, um, advantage, at least early on-

    8. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:11:47

       Hmm

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:11:48

       ... that I think can be somewhat misleading of people who are hyperverbal.

    10. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:11:53

        Oh, interesting.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman1:11:55

        And, and in particular, a- among men. So here's what, um... I think years ago when I was on the job market for academic science, a really fantastic neurobiologist who actually re- uh, ran, um, let's just say a very famous school in Boston's brain science center-

    12. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:12:08

        Okay

    13. AHAndrew Huberman1:12:09

        ... um, they never admit the name of their school anyway-

    14. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:12:12

        [laughs]

    15. AHAndrew Huberman1:12:12

        ... um, said to me, he said, "You know, the worst part about the job search process in, uh, neuroscience is that it selects for hyperverbal people, where people can present their data-

    16. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:12:23

        Yeah

    17. AHAndrew Huberman1:12:23

        ... excite people about it, present their vision."

    18. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:12:25

        Yep.

    19. AHAndrew Huberman1:12:25

        And he said, "And there are so many amazing scientists that just don't know how to communicate their data, and we're selecting for someone who can also teach, who can also do these things."

    20. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:12:34

        Yeah.

    21. AHAndrew Huberman1:12:34

        And I realize he's absolutely right, you know? And some people can overcome this, but some of the best scientists in the world, speaking isn't their forte.

    22. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:12:43

        Yeah.

    23. AHAndrew Huberman1:12:43

        Okay. So in the realm of text communication, there's a kind of a bias toward can somebody, like a good listener in a face-to-face interaction-

    24. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:12:53

        Yeah

    25. AHAndrew Huberman1:12:53

        ... like, a guy can just sit there, listen, not interrupt, nod, maybe reflect-

    26. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:12:59

        Be a good audience, yeah

    27. AHAndrew Huberman1:12:59

        ... maybe reflect. "Tell me more." So, uh, "Well, that must have been interesting, hard," whatever. You know, and can convey a lot of, of genuine ability to, uh, to communicate and bond. Over text, just listening doesn't work

    28. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:13:16

        Doesn't work

    29. AHAndrew Huberman1:13:16

        In fact, if it's just like-

    30. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:13:17

        Doesn't work
14. 1:16:15 – 1:17:36

    Sponsor: LMNT

    1. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:16:15

       of, of, uh, you know, dates that never went anywhere.

    2. AHAndrew Huberman1:16:19

       I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, LMNT. LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't. That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, all in the correct ratios, but no sugar. Proper hydration is critical for brain and body function. Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish your cognitive and physical performance. It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes. The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, are vital for the functioning of all cells in your body, especially your neurons or your nerve cells. Drinking LMNT makes it very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes. My days tend to start really fast, meaning I have to jump right into work or right into exercise. So to make sure that I'm hydrated and I have sufficient electrolytes, when I first wake up in the morning, I drink 16 to 32 ounces of water with an LMNT packet dissolved in it. I also drink LMNT dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes. LMNT has a bunch of great-tasting flavors. In fact, I love them all. I love the watermelon, the raspberry, the citrus, and I really love the lemonade flavor. So if you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free LMNT sample pack with any purchase. Again, that's drinklmnt.com/huberman

15. 1:17:36 – 1:22:57

    Partner Actions, Dating vs Relationship

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:17:37

       to claim a free sample pack.

    2. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:17:39

       Yeah, we're sort of veering towards compatibility when I say, um, you know, if I were to, you know, ask a close family member, you know, like, "What's great about the relationship you're in?" Uh, this is a woman, and she'll be referring to her male partner-

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:17:52

       Yeah

    4. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:17:52

       ... in this case. She'll generally talk about the things that he does and the things that he is able to do in support that-

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:18:01

       Oh, interesting

    6. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:18:02

       ... may or may not even require the ability to speak.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:18:04

       Yeah, yeah. [laughs]

    8. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:18:04

       Now, he's not aphasic, you know, um, but, you know-

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:18:08

       Yeah

    10. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:18:08

        ... it's, it's more about, like, what he does.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman1:18:12

        Hmm.

    12. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:18:12

        And when, when we've had conversations-

    13. AHAndrew Huberman1:18:13

        That's interesting

    14. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:18:13

        ... on this podcast in the past about-

    15. AHAndrew Huberman1:18:15

        Yeah

    16. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:18:15

        ... kind of relationship glue and things like that, it's like, it's like, oh, that they always like r- you know, one person always seems to, like, make the bed by the time I'm back from the bathroom in the morning, and you're like-

    17. AHAndrew Huberman1:18:25

        Yeah

    18. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:18:25

        ... "No, my turn," and they, they, or the other person always sets out the coffee or some-

    19. AHAndrew Huberman1:18:28

        Yeah

    20. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:18:29

        ... it's these, the little thing phenomenon.

    21. AHAndrew Huberman1:18:31

        Oh, yeah.

    22. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:18:31

        Rarely is it like, sometimes it's a note.

    23. AHAndrew Huberman1:18:34

        Yeah.

    24. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:18:34

        But rarely is it like, "Yeah, I love the way, you know, he strings together, uh, you know, sentences," or something like-

    25. AHAndrew Huberman1:18:42

        Yeah, yeah, yeah

    26. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:18:42

        ... I love the way that, I love the way that, um, you know, she describes this thing, you know. So it's often about actions-

    27. AHAndrew Huberman1:18:49

        Yeah

    28. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:18:49

        ... at least in the, in the observing the qualities of the, positive qualities of the male partner.

    29. AHAndrew Huberman1:18:54

        Yeah.

    30. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:18:54

        And that's very kind of stereotypical, but I think that it just, it's, it's a kind of window in my mind into the difference between the, quote-unquote, exploration and courting process, although the courting process, what people do arguably matters more than what they say.
16. 1:22:57 – 1:29:36

    Dating & Asking Good Questions; Genuine Connection

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:22:57

       we have, and that's very evolutionary-

    2. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:22:58

       Yeah

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:22:58

       ... uh, in its core. You talked before about this kind of crystal ball question-

    4. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:23:03

       Yeah

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:23:03

       ... or, um, probing for particular disclosures that people are willing or not willing to make as a, as a perhaps better indication of whether somebody is interesting or appropriate-

    6. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:23:16

       Yeah

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:23:16

       ... for you. I realize, however, that the notion that there's a, like, a question or a set of questions-

    8. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:23:22

       Yeah

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:23:22

       ... that would say, "Green light," is, that's not true. That's just, like, can't be true. There's probably some answers that are red light. Everyone, you know, kn- knows red light.

    10. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:23:32

        Yeah.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman1:23:32

        Hopefully they're paying attention to that. But the, it's the yellow, it's the yellow-

    12. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:23:36

        [laughs]

    13. AHAndrew Huberman1:23:36

        But it's the yellow lights and not knowing what questions to ask to see if there's a sort of green light path forward. Uh, w- uh, tell me what those questions are.

    14. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:23:44

        Okay.

    15. AHAndrew Huberman1:23:44

        Like, uh-

    16. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:23:45

        Yeah

    17. AHAndrew Huberman1:23:45

        ... phrased differently.

    18. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:23:46

        Yeah.

    19. AHAndrew Huberman1:23:46

        If two people are on a date and they have only a few minutes, it's kind of a speed dating type situation-

    20. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:23:51

        Yep, yeah

    21. AHAndrew Huberman1:23:51

        ... and they need to make a good assessment as to whether or not they genuinely would like to spend more time with the person again-

    22. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:23:58

        Yeah

    23. AHAndrew Huberman1:23:58

        ... uh, what, what are the questions they should ask?

    24. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:24:01

        All right. So I like the questions that are a little bit more off-beat. You know, what people tend to do on speed dates is they, they wanna find common ground quickly. You know, if it's college students, maybe they're gonna talk about their major. "Uh, do we share a major? No. Ugh." Like pivot, "Uh, where are you from?" And they'll try to find something that they can bond over. A- and that can work very well. But I think the core of what we want in an initial interaction with somebody is to take away something that feels like it was at least a little different than all the other interactions that we have. And so sometimes what that means is going a touch deeper than people are comfortable with. Now, in, in four minutes, it's tricky. If you have a little bit longer, like a regular evening length date, I really like the 36 questions test. Like, this is the, sometimes it's called the fast friends procedure. But these are questions like, you know, what's one thing that you've never told somebody that you've always wanted to tell them, and what's stopping you? Or-

    25. AHAndrew Huberman1:25:07

        People answer that?

    26. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:25:08

        Yeah. I mean, after, if you've been hanging out with somebody for 60 to 90 minutes, that Is a pretty good way to elicit real depth and give, like, both people a chance to do some reciprocal self-disclosure, 'cause that's what people want.

    27. AHAndrew Huberman1:25:25

        Mm-hmm.

    28. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:25:25

        That's what people connect over, is like I've-- Like, I feel like I've just heard... You know, maybe it's true, maybe it's not, but I feel like you've just told me something that you haven't told most people, and maybe you haven't told anybody. I vividly remember falling for somebody when that moment happened, when it's like, I real- You are telling me this. I, I don't, I don't think you've ever told anybody this before. And it is such a rush. I, I think, like, I don't know, man. The internet, it's like convinced us that all we care about is, like, sex and hotness. There is nothing like the rush of having somebody tell you something that they've never told anybody else. And again, thi- this is, like, the stuff that gets relationships researchers excited, 'cause this is what we see in our data. Responsiveness, closeness, like, building trust and all of that stuff. Now, again, four minutes is really hard. Four minutes, you just gotta get a little nugget of something that you wanna build off later, and maybe that is your hometown, and maybe it is like, "Isn't this a weird experience that we're only gonna get to chat for four minutes?" But whenever there are routes to go for a little bit more disclosure, I, I usually advise that, that people go for it. It, it, it will pay off on average, even if it can feel kind of awkward in the moment.

    29. AHAndrew Huberman1:26:44

        Do you think there's, uh, more excitement if one gets the sense that the other person is, um, taking a bit of a risk in disclosing it?

    30. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:26:54

        Yeah.
17. 1:29:36 – 1:36:18

    Attraction, What Qualities Men & Women Want

    1. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:29:36

       and, like, how we form mating relationships.

    2. AHAndrew Huberman1:29:39

       You've said in, um, so many words, uh, before, uh, that men and women essentially want the same things.

    3. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:29:47

       Yeah.

    4. AHAndrew Huberman1:29:48

       I think that's gonna hit some people square in the face.

    5. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:29:50

       I know.

    6. AHAndrew Huberman1:29:50

       And they're gonna say, "That is so not true."

    7. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:29:53

       [laughs] I know.

    8. AHAndrew Huberman1:29:53

       "Men just want blank."

    9. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:29:54

       Yeah.

    10. AHAndrew Huberman1:29:54

        "Women just want blank." I, I'm, like, on this campaign lately to try and defang-

    11. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:30:00

        Yeah

    12. AHAndrew Huberman1:30:00

        ... the trolls-

    13. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:30:01

        Yeah

    14. AHAndrew Huberman1:30:02

        ... that seem to have, like... It's like it, if we were in high school-

    15. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:30:06

        Yeah

    16. AHAndrew Huberman1:30:06

        ... let's leave junior high school. Let's go to high school.

    17. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:30:07

        Okay.

    18. AHAndrew Huberman1:30:08

        And there were, like, a bunch of, like, really awful people that's evenly distributed between the sexes. Let's just do that-

    19. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:30:14

        Yeah

    20. AHAndrew Huberman1:30:14

        ... for fairness' sake.

    21. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:30:15

        Yeah.

    22. AHAndrew Huberman1:30:15

        And they're, like, constantly pointing out how these people are always bad and extractive, and these people are always, you know, uh, cold and avoidant. And like-

    23. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:30:25

        Yeah

    24. AHAndrew Huberman1:30:26

        ... and, and if those narratives were just constantly, like, posted on the walls and like-

    25. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:30:30

        Yeah

    26. AHAndrew Huberman1:30:30

        ... and talked about in the, uh, over lunch and whispered in the hallways, it would be very poisonous to-

    27. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:30:36

        Yeah

    28. AHAndrew Huberman1:30:36

        ... the whole environment.

    29. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:30:37

        Yeah.

    30. AHAndrew Huberman1:30:37

        And that's kinda what the internet is.
18. 1:36:18 – 1:40:08

    Homosexual Dating & Relationships

    1. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:36:18

       men and women find a way to make it work a- again. [laughs]

    2. AHAndrew Huberman1:36:21

       Springboarding off of the heteropessimism-

    3. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:36:23

       Yeah

    4. AHAndrew Huberman1:36:24

       ... term, which is great 'cause it encapsulates so much-

    5. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:36:26

       Yeah

    6. AHAndrew Huberman1:36:26

       ... even though what it encapsulates is definitely not great.

    7. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:36:29

       Yeah, yeah.

    8. AHAndrew Huberman1:36:29

       Um, the term I'm about to use is gonna sound, um, like it means something, uh, it doesn't, but is there any research on homopessimism? Which is not the same as homophobia.

    9. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:36:40

       Hmm.

    10. AHAndrew Huberman1:36:40

        Homopessimist, meaning I'm not aware, 'cause I happen to be heterosexual, but I have homosexual friends, men and women. I'm not hearing them talk a lot about-

    11. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:36:48

        Yeah

    12. AHAndrew Huberman1:36:48

        ... how dating culture is much worse now.

    13. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:36:51

        I hear this too, yeah.

    14. AHAndrew Huberman1:36:53

        Um, but then again, uh, sample size isn't that great here.

    15. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:36:56

        Right. Right.

    16. AHAndrew Huberman1:36:57

        So I don't know. Because a lot of the same things apply in terms of, like, apps. Uh, sure, cultures vary.

    17. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:37:04

        Yeah.

    18. AHAndrew Huberman1:37:04

        But there are some constants in this picture. Um, so in any research, yours or others', research about, um, homosexual dating and couples-

    19. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:37:18

        Yeah

    20. AHAndrew Huberman1:37:18

        ... is there pessimism? Guys saying, "Well, guys these days," and women saying-

    21. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:37:22

        Yeah

    22. AHAndrew Huberman1:37:22

        ... in le- in, uh, y- lesbian women, let's just-

    23. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:37:25

        Yeah, yeah, yeah

    24. AHAndrew Huberman1:37:25

        ... you know, for lack of a better term, um, saying Women these days [laughs]

    25. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:37:29

        I don't think that's out there nearly to the same extent. The, I think some of the, like, interesting components that you see out there is, look, the apps I think did, they did a lot of good in the world for people who, you know, just felt like their social networks had no options in them-

    26. AHAndrew Huberman1:37:48

        Mm-hmm. Yep

    27. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:37:48

        ... but especially for people who might have been living in places that were genuinely unsafe for gays and lesbians, and might have helped them to find romantic partners. So like, I'm, I always wanna be the first one to give the apps credit for that, for providing those kinds of opportunities. Classically speaking, what you tend to see is that, you know, I've talked a little bit about the, the timeframe as people form relationships in the first place, and that sometimes we get locked into this idea that it's like, oh, it's gonna happen in an instant, and, and now you're together. But m- the reality is it's often an elongated process. That process has tended historically to be even longer for folks who are gays and lesbians f- forming same gender relationships. And I think part of that is something that you, you might even call, like, a bigotry tax, because if you lived in a place where it was, like, vaguely dangerous to admit your same-sex attractions, you gotta be really careful before you start disclosing how you feel about somebody. Because rejection doesn't just mean rejection. Rejection is maybe, actually carries other threats and stigma and all of these other things with it.

    28. AHAndrew Huberman1:39:03

        Loss of jobs.

    29. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:39:03

        Exactly.

    30. AHAndrew Huberman1:39:04

        We've seen examples that, like, it, it's sort of, uh, again, it plays on stereotypes, but, um, I'm, I'm going to assume some of it is true. Uh, like in, in Mad Men, right?
19. 1:40:08 – 1:46:28

    Finances; Job Loss; Men vs Women, Ambition

    1. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:40:08

       helping people to, uh, to come together in that sense.

    2. AHAndrew Huberman1:40:11

       I have a question about-

    3. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:40:13

       Yeah

    4. AHAndrew Huberman1:40:13

       ... um, financial stability-

    5. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:40:15

       Okay

    6. AHAndrew Huberman1:40:15

       ... and level.

    7. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:40:16

       Yeah.

    8. AHAndrew Huberman1:40:17

       You mentioned there aren't real big gender differences there.

    9. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:40:21

       Yeah.

    10. AHAndrew Huberman1:40:21

        Earlier we were saying scientists are always, uh, doing the opposite of improv. Instead of, "Yes, and," they always said-

    11. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:40:26

        Right. [laughs]

    12. AHAndrew Huberman1:40:26

        ... "Yeah, but," you know? [laughs]

    13. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:40:28

        Yeah.

    14. AHAndrew Huberman1:40:28

        What, "Yeah, but what about?"

    15. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:40:29

        Yeah, but what about?

    16. AHAndrew Huberman1:40:30

        It's, it's, it's, it's, it's in our training.

    17. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:40:31

        Yep.

    18. AHAndrew Huberman1:40:31

        Income level on its own, or amount of money that somebody has, i- in my mind is somewhat informative. What's more informative is having the additional data point of where they started out.

    19. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:40:45

        Oh, interesting. Yeah.

    20. AHAndrew Huberman1:40:45

        Because people with money who, um-

    21. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:40:48

        Yeah

    22. AHAndrew Huberman1:40:49

        ... didn't have to work very hard to get it-

    23. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:40:50

        Yeah

    24. AHAndrew Huberman1:40:51

        ... it, it's a different picture. Now, some people might say, like, "Who cares?" And I will make the argument that some people-

    25. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:40:56

        It's a cool idea

    26. AHAndrew Huberman1:40:57

        ... some people who had to make a, uh, work very hard to make their money oftentimes are still in the working hard mode.

    27. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:41:03

        Yeah.

    28. AHAndrew Huberman1:41:03

        The, the, the, the twist in the, in the high level of income thing like that-

    29. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:41:08

        Yeah

    30. AHAndrew Huberman1:41:08

        ... the additional question that's useful is, how much free time do you have? [laughs]
20. 1:46:28 – 1:48:05

    Sponsor: Function

    1. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:46:28

       you know, push people to some of those nastier corners of the internet.

    2. AHAndrew Huberman1:46:32

       I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Function. Function provides over 160 advanced lab tests to give you a clear snapshot of your bodily health. This snapshot gives you insights into your heart health, your hormone health, autoimmune function, nutrient levels, and much more. They've also recently added access to advanced MRI and CT scans. Function not only provides testing of over 160 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, it also analyzes these results and provides recommendations for improving your health from top doctors. For example, in a recent test with Function, I learned that some of my blood lipids were slightly out of range. As a result, I decided to start supplementing with nattokinase, which can naturally help reduce LDL cholesterol, and it did. In a follow-up test, I could confirm that this strategy worked. My blood lipids are now back exactly where I want them. Comprehensive lab testing of the sort that Function offers is just so important for health. I mean, how else are you gonna know what's going on under the hood? And while I've been doing blood work for years, it used to be time-consuming, complicated, and expensive. In fact, I used to spend thousands of dollars per year trying to get this kind of data, and the data, frankly, were not all that good. But now with Function, it's extremely easy and affordable. A Function membership is only a dollar a day, $365 a year, and if you think about the information it provides and the health challenges it helps you avoid and the proactive things that it can do for you to enhance your health, I truly look at it as a savings. To learn more, visit functionhealth.com/huberman and use the code Huberman for a $50 credit

21. 1:48:05 – 1:54:58

    Age Difference, Men vs Women Preference; Wanting Children

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:48:05

       towards your membership. Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman. In the kinda classic s- pure stereotypical narrative, you know, men who are slightly older had more resources.

    2. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:48:19

       Yeah.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:48:20

       This isn't always true.

    4. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:48:21

       Yeah.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:48:21

       But there's this, what apparently, based on your work, is a, a myth that women desire older men, uh, men desire younger women.

    6. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:48:32

       Yeah.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:48:32

       Your work points to the possibility that there is no gender differences in attraction to younger partners.

    8. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:48:38

       Yeah, and look, let me say that this is, I think-

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:48:40

       Like-

    10. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:48:40

        ... one of the more tenet-

    11. AHAndrew Huberman1:48:41

        And it's a big-

    12. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:48:42

        Yeah

    13. AHAndrew Huberman1:48:42

        ... and it's a big sample size, 4,500.

    14. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:48:44

        4,500. [laughs]

    15. AHAndrew Huberman1:48:45

        I'm like, wait.

    16. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:48:46

        It's a lot.

    17. AHAndrew Huberman1:48:46

        So a- and, uh, I'll weave a quick anecdote.

    18. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:48:49

        Yeah.

    19. AHAndrew Huberman1:48:49

        There's this guy, uh, at the gym that I sometimes go to. He's probably in his, like, 70s or something, and he's in, like, great shape. He's retired. He made money. He's enjoying life. He's got-

    20. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:48:59

        Yeah

    21. AHAndrew Huberman1:49:00

        ... grandkids. He's like, he just seems like he... I don't know him that well, but it seems like he's really got it together.

    22. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:49:04

        Yeah.

    23. AHAndrew Huberman1:49:04

        And he's really loving life. And I always say, uh, "What brings you here every day?" You know, I figured he would be like, "Oh, I just feel so good," and he just-

    24. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:49:11

        Yeah

    25. AHAndrew Huberman1:49:11

        ... always says the same thing. He always just says, "I don't wanna lose my wife to a younger guy." [laughs] And I always laugh and I go, "Then-"

    26. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:49:18

        This is smart, man. [laughs]

    27. AHAndrew Huberman1:49:19

        ... like, I know a lot about the contour of his life, and maybe there's something he's not disclosing, but, you know, anyone would say, like, "This guy's just totally got it made," and he's in, and he's... You know, I, again, I don't know the details of his life, and I shouldn't, but I know enough about it that, you know, he's checked off all the boxes three or four times-

    28. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:49:36

        Yeah

    29. AHAndrew Huberman1:49:36

        ... and then had the wisdom, in my opinion, to not just keep working like a maniac-

    30. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:49:41

        Yeah
22. 1:54:58 – 2:07:10

    Church, Activities, Small Groups & Dating; Work; Perceived Similarity

    1. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:54:58

       that might be, like, a special feature you have to pay for and things. These things get complicated.

    2. AHAndrew Huberman1:55:02

       Who knows if the news is accurate, uh, because it's not real data.

    3. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:55:05

       [laughs] Yeah.

    4. AHAndrew Huberman1:55:05

       It's sort of whatever the news decides to shine a light on.

    5. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:55:08

       Mm-hmm.

    6. AHAndrew Huberman1:55:08

       This idea that, um, more young people are going to church, with... which is a values, plural-

    7. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:55:13

       Yeah

    8. AHAndrew Huberman1:55:13

       ... uh, indicator. Like, you know, people can... Most churches are open to whoever shows up.

    9. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:55:19

       Yeah.

    10. AHAndrew Huberman1:55:19

        But the assumption is that people are there, uh, for certain reasons, that they're either trying to build on or, or have certain values-

    11. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:55:28

        Yeah

    12. AHAndrew Huberman1:55:28

        ... that are of family, children, uh, values, morals-

    13. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:55:34

        Yeah

    14. AHAndrew Huberman1:55:34

        ... adjacent-

    15. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:55:35

        Yeah

    16. AHAndrew Huberman1:55:35

        ... if not central, right?

    17. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:55:36

        Yeah.

    18. AHAndrew Huberman1:55:36

        I think people know what I'm saying. I mean, sure, bad people can show up at church.

    19. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:55:39

        Yeah.

    20. AHAndrew Huberman1:55:39

        But, but the idea is that somebody's taking the time, uh, to get dressed up on a Sunday morning and go and listen to someone else speak, and-

    21. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:55:47

        Yeah

    22. AHAndrew Huberman1:55:47

        ... and a lot of people are meeting that way now.

    23. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:55:48

        Yeah.

    24. AHAndrew Huberman1:55:49

        Are there any data that that's a response to the kind of, uh, like, Wild West of, um, of online dating and, you know, social media and, and just the general culture of, like, everybody... It's kind of the, the culture of everybody.

    25. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:56:03

        Yeah.

    26. AHAndrew Huberman1:56:03

        I mean, even in high school-

    27. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:56:04

        Yeah, yeah

    28. AHAndrew Huberman1:56:04

        ... there were subgroups. Some people moved between subgroups.

    29. PEDr. Paul Eastwick1:56:08

        I see what you mean.

    30. AHAndrew Huberman1:56:08

        But it's, you know, it, it The, the vastness of the internet and social media-
23. 2:07:10 – 2:19:13

    Social Media, Attraction to Alternative Partners, Infidelity

    1. PEDr. Paul Eastwick2:07:11

       and it's like stupid human tricks, but it, like, kinda works.

    2. AHAndrew Huberman2:07:14

       You wanna hear something really scary?

    3. PEDr. Paul Eastwick2:07:16

       Yeah.

    4. AHAndrew Huberman2:07:16

       Uh, you probably know this already-

    5. PEDr. Paul Eastwick2:07:18

       [laughs]

    6. AHAndrew Huberman2:07:18

       ... but I was shocked. Uh, let's just say someone I know who would know, um, told me that the biggest dating app in the world by an enormous margin is-

    7. PEDr. Paul Eastwick2:07:30

       It's not Tinder?

    8. AHAndrew Huberman2:07:31

       Instagram.

    9. PEDr. Paul Eastwick2:07:33

       Oh.

    10. AHAndrew Huberman2:07:34

        And this was actually very much in parallel-

    11. PEDr. Paul Eastwick2:07:38

        Huh

    12. AHAndrew Huberman2:07:38

        ... to the, the algorithm favoring communication by direct message. People will say, like, "Social media isn't social anymore. It's not about, like, seeing what people are doing." The real dynamics, the real time spent, and you'll notice how you get rewarded and what gets served up in the algorithm.

    13. PEDr. Paul Eastwick2:07:58

        Yeah.

    14. AHAndrew Huberman2:07:58

        Reward, I mean, like what, what-

    15. PEDr. Paul Eastwick2:07:59

        Yeah

    16. AHAndrew Huberman2:08:00

        ... what posts do better than others. If there's a strong correlate to communication about that through direct message, it's a dating app that's kinda-

    17. PEDr. Paul Eastwick2:08:09

        Yeah

    18. AHAndrew Huberman2:08:09

        ... cloaked for many people as a social media app, but of course I use it to teach neuroscience, right?

    19. PEDr. Paul Eastwick2:08:14

        Yeah, right, right.

    20. AHAndrew Huberman2:08:14

        And, and other things, and this will be-

    21. PEDr. Paul Eastwick2:08:16

        Yeah

    22. AHAndrew Huberman2:08:16

        ... on Instagram. So I mean, I'm a big fan of, of Instagram and other social media platforms for teaching and learning, and I say that sincerely. But the majority of the Time spent now is not scrolling, it's, it's getting to communications-

    23. PEDr. Paul Eastwick2:08:32

        Yeah

    24. AHAndrew Huberman2:08:32

        ... that move to real world-

    25. PEDr. Paul Eastwick2:08:33

        Yeah

    26. AHAndrew Huberman2:08:33

        ... and then feedback-

    27. PEDr. Paul Eastwick2:08:35

        Yeah

    28. AHAndrew Huberman2:08:35

        ... to social media. So I found that, um, interesting. So I'm imagining, uh, a question.

    29. PEDr. Paul Eastwick2:08:40

        Yeah.

    30. AHAndrew Huberman2:08:40

        Uh, 'cause you study questions people ask them on dates. And we used to be able to say, "If you were on a deserted island, who would you wanna be there with?"
24. 2:19:13 – 2:24:58

    Stranger Attention, Mate Value

    1. PEDr. Paul Eastwick2:19:13

       engaging in the actions that would bring things to an end.

    2. AHAndrew Huberman2:19:17

       I heard a really scary story that may or may not be informative. I think it is, and maybe you can help-

    3. PEDr. Paul Eastwick2:19:24

       Okay

    4. AHAndrew Huberman2:19:24

       ... me understand it. Anytime someone starts a story with, "I have a friend"-

    5. PEDr. Paul Eastwick2:19:28

       Yeah

    6. AHAndrew Huberman2:19:28

       ... it's, it gets, uh, uh, a little-

    7. PEDr. Paul Eastwick2:19:29

       [laughs]

    8. AHAndrew Huberman2:19:30

       ... a little weird. But based on an observation I had a long time ago where I was going to a gym and I had a tru- truly just platonic friendship with this woman. Uh, she would go to the gym, too. Back then, not a lot of women worked out in gyms, if I'm honest.

    9. PEDr. Paul Eastwick2:19:43

       Yeah, yeah.

    10. AHAndrew Huberman2:19:43

        Like, it would be like, it was like, not a lot of women lifted weights.

    11. PEDr. Paul Eastwick2:19:45

        Yeah.

    12. AHAndrew Huberman2:19:45

        It was, like, something that was kind of reserved for guys or for female bodybuilders. But she wasn't a bodybuilder, but she, she liked lifting weights.

    13. PEDr. Paul Eastwick2:19:51

        Yeah.

    14. AHAndrew Huberman2:19:51

        And super fit. She's a super accomplished athlete now. She, um, one day when we were leaving, she was, like, really upset. I was like, "W- what's up?" And she's like, "All these guys kept coming up to me." And I'm like, "Well, that's-"

    15. PEDr. Paul Eastwick2:20:05

        Yeah

    16. AHAndrew Huberman2:20:05

        ... "happening all the time."

    17. PEDr. Paul Eastwick2:20:06

        Yeah.

    18. AHAndrew Huberman2:20:06

        Like, but, you know, and she's like, "No, they were all really unattractive." And I said, "Okay, well, you're good at dealing with..." You know, like she was-

    19. PEDr. Paul Eastwick2:20:15

        Yeah

    20. AHAndrew Huberman2:20:15

        ... very skilled. She's very beautiful, then and now, and so very skilled at, like, saying, "Thanks, but no thanks."

    21. PEDr. Paul Eastwick2:20:21

        Yeah.

    22. AHAndrew Huberman2:20:22

        And then she said something that was absolutely, like, shocking to me, that I've shared with other female friends [laughs] and some men-

    23. PEDr. Paul Eastwick2:20:28

        Yeah, yeah

    24. AHAndrew Huberman2:20:28

        ... and they always go, "No way." And she said- I feel like I have to go, like, flirt with a really attractive guy now.

    25. PEDr. Paul Eastwick2:20:37

        Whoa.

    26. AHAndrew Huberman2:20:37

        And it was clear that despite being incredibly attractive, incredibly accomplished, and su- super athlete, was questioning her own value. This is very evo-

    27. PEDr. Paul Eastwick2:20:50

        Ah

    28. AHAndrew Huberman2:20:50

        ... evolutionary biology because the guys that were approaching her-

    29. PEDr. Paul Eastwick2:20:53

        Yeah

    30. AHAndrew Huberman2:20:53

        ... were, in her mind, very, quote-unquote, "low value, unattractive."
25. 2:24:58 – 2:34:33

    Past Relationship Value; Relationship Duration, Breakups

    1. PEDr. Paul Eastwick2:24:58

       it, but it is a fascinating flip of the way I typically think about these things.

    2. AHAndrew Huberman2:25:02

       It makes me wonder whether there are, our, um, notions of self, and this goes back to the, what we were talking about before, the Esther Perel thing and-

    3. PEDr. Paul Eastwick2:25:10

       Yeah

    4. AHAndrew Huberman2:25:10

       ... attractiveness that sort of boomerangs back into the relationship. Something that's gonna be uncomfortable for a lot of people to, to hear, but, uh, at, at some level, all of it makes me wonder whether, um, there's a healthy compartmentalization that we could adopt as, as a society.

    5. PEDr. Paul Eastwick2:25:28

       Yeah.

    6. AHAndrew Huberman2:25:28

       Which is not to say, like, anyone can be attracted to anyone, and therefore commitment isn't real.

    7. PEDr. Paul Eastwick2:25:33

       Yeah.

    8. AHAndrew Huberman2:25:33

       Nor is it saying, like, okay, when you're in a committed relationship, it's a, it's a complete black box.

    9. PEDr. Paul Eastwick2:25:37

       Right.

    10. AHAndrew Huberman2:25:38

        Right? Because there is this thing called the internet-

    11. PEDr. Paul Eastwick2:25:40

        Yeah

    12. AHAndrew Huberman2:25:40

        ... and there is this thing called the human psyche-

    13. PEDr. Paul Eastwick2:25:42

        Yeah, yeah

    14. AHAndrew Huberman2:25:42

        ... and you study it-

    15. PEDr. Paul Eastwick2:25:43

        Yeah

    16. AHAndrew Huberman2:25:43

        ... a- around these issues. But maybe it's if people understood that those are two different things.

    17. PEDr. Paul Eastwick2:25:49

        Yeah.

    18. AHAndrew Huberman2:25:50

        Sometimes we refer to it, like, as the shiny object, but that that's a, an aspect of self, or it's an aspect of, of wanting that's not, it's not not real. It's real, but that it, maybe there's a way to compartmentalize it so that it's, has the potential to be toxic to a relationship.

    19. PEDr. Paul Eastwick2:26:08

        Yeah.

    20. AHAndrew Huberman2:26:08

        But acknowledging that it's real, that it's part of our wiring might diffuse some of its power.

    21. PEDr. Paul Eastwick2:26:15

        Yeah.

    22. AHAndrew Huberman2:26:15

        Like I said, some of these couples that are like, "Oh, yeah," like, uh, what's the, the phrase couples have where they're like, "Oh, you get a, it's like a hall pass"?

    23. PEDr. Paul Eastwick2:26:21

        Oh, yeah.

    24. AHAndrew Huberman2:26:22

        Which is never gonna happen.

    25. PEDr. Paul Eastwick2:26:23

        Right. Yeah.

    26. AHAndrew Huberman2:26:23

        Right? She's like, "You know so-and-so."

    27. PEDr. Paul Eastwick2:26:25

        Yeah.

    28. AHAndrew Huberman2:26:25

        "You know, my, my wife gets a hall, my, I get a hall pass with-"

    29. PEDr. Paul Eastwick2:26:27

        Yeah

    30. AHAndrew Huberman2:26:27

        ... 'cause, 'cause basically it's never gonna happen.
26. 2:34:33 – 2:39:32

    Physical Intimacy & Relationship Satisfaction

    1. PEDr. Paul Eastwick2:34:33

       Yeah.

    2. AHAndrew Huberman2:34:33

       Or even-

    3. PEDr. Paul Eastwick2:34:33

       Although, although now everything's, you know, in the cloud. It's very, very challenging.

    4. AHAndrew Huberman2:34:38

       Hypothalamus versus forebrain. Does the good primitive stuff-

    5. PEDr. Paul Eastwick2:34:43

       Hmm

    6. AHAndrew Huberman2:34:43

       ... meaning-

Episode duration: 2:50:15