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The Neuroscience of Speech, Language & Music | Dr. Erich Jarvis

My guest this episode is Dr. Erich Jarvis, PhD—Professor and Head of the Laboratory of Neurogenetics of Language at Rockefeller University and Investigator with the Howard Hughes Medical Institute (HHMI). Dr. Jarvis' research spans the molecular and genetic mechanisms of vocal communication, comparative genomics of speech and language across species and the relationship between speech, language and movement. We discuss the unique ability of humans (and certain animal species) to learn and communicate using complex language, including verbal speech production and the ability to interpret both written and spoken language. We also discuss the connections between language, singing and dance, and why song may have evolved before language. Dr. Jarvis also explains some of the underlying biological and genetic components of stuttering/speech disorders, non-verbal communication, why it's easiest to learn a language as a child and how individuals can learn multiple languages at any age. This episode ought to be of interest to everyone interested in the origins of human speech, language, music and culture and how newer technology, such as social media and texting, changes our brains. Thank you to our sponsors AG1 (Athletic Greens): https://athleticgreens.com/huberman InsideTracker: https://insidetracker.com/huberman ROKA: https://roka.com/huberman LMNT: https://drinklmnt.com/huberman Supplements from Momentous https://www.livemomentous.com/huberman Social & Website Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hubermanlab Twitter: https://twitter.com/hubermanlab Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/hubermanlab TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@hubermanlab LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrew-hu... Website: https://hubermanlab.com Newsletter: https://hubermanlab.com/neural-network Dr. Erich Jarvis Dr. Erick Jarvis' Lab: https://www.jarvislab.net Rockefeller University: https://www.rockefeller.edu/our-scientists/heads-of-laboratories/1159-erich-d-jarvis Google Scholar: https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=cI-fi9MAAAAJ Twitter: https://twitter.com/erichjarvis Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/erich_d_jarvis LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/erich-jarvis-ba73624 Other Resources: Earth Biogenome Project: https://www.earthbiogenome.org GenomeArk: https://vgp.github.io/genomeark Timestamps 00:00:00 Dr. Erich Jarvis & Vocal Communication 00:03:43 Momentous Supplements 00:04:36 InsideTracker, ROKA, LMNT 00:08:01 Speech vs. Language, Is There a Difference? 00:10:55 Animal Communication, Hand Gestures & Language 00:15:25 Vocalization & Innate Language, Evolution of Modern Language 00:21:10 Humans & Songbirds, Critical Periods, Genetics, Speech Disorders 00:27:11 Innate Predisposition to Learn Language, Cultural Hybridization 00:31:34 Genes for Speech & Language 00:35:49 Learning New or Multiple Languages, Critical Periods, Phonemes 00:41:39 AG1 (Athletic Greens) 00:42:52 Semantic vs. Effective Communication, Emotion, Singing 00:47:32 Singing, Link Between Dancing & Vocal Learning 00:52:55 Motor Theory of Vocal Learning, Dance 00:55:03 Music & Dance, Emotional Bonding, Genetic Predispositions 01:04:11 Facial Expressions & Language, Innate Expressions 01:09:35 Reading & Writing 01:15:13 Writing by Hand vs. Typing, Thoughts & Writing 01:20:58 Stutter, Neurogenetics, Overcome Stutter, Conversations 01:26:58 Modern Language Evolution: Texting, Social Media & the Future 01:36:26 Movement: The Link to Cognitive Growth 01:40:21 Comparative Genomics, Earth Biogenome Project, Genome Ark, Conservation 01:48:24 Evolution of Skin & Fur Color 01:51:22 Dr. Erich Jarvis, Zero-Cost Support, YouTube Feedback, Spotify & Apple Reviews, Momentous Supplements, AG1 (Athletic Greens), Instagram, Twitter, Neural Network Newsletter, Huberman Lab Clips The Huberman Lab Podcast is for general informational purposes only and does not constitute the practice of medicine, nursing or other professional health care services, including the giving of medical advice, and no doctor/patient relationship is formed. The use of information on this podcast or materials linked from this podcast is at the user's own risk. The content of this podcast is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Users should not disregard or delay in obtaining medical advice for any medical condition they may have and should seek the assistance of their health care professionals for any such conditions.

Andrew HubermanhostErich Jarvisguest
Aug 28, 20221h 54mWatch on YouTube ↗

At a glance

WHAT IT’S REALLY ABOUT

How Brains Turn Sound Into Speech, Song, Dance, and Writing

  1. Neurobiologist Erich Jarvis explains how speech, language, music, and dance all emerge from overlapping motor and sensory circuits rather than a separate “language module” in the brain. Humans, parrots, songbirds, and hummingbirds share specialized forebrain pathways that enable vocal learning—the rare ability to imitate sounds—built on more ancient motor systems for body movement.
  2. Jarvis details how reading, writing, and even silent thinking covertly recruit our speech muscles, why critical periods make childhood language learning easier, and how genes shape both the wiring and metabolic demands of speech circuits. He also describes the surprising link between vocal learning and the capacity to dance in time with music.
  3. The conversation spans from animal models and convergent evolution to stuttering, texting, brain–computer interfaces, and global efforts to sequence the genomes of all vertebrates and endangered species. Throughout, Jarvis argues that movement—of the larynx, hands, face, or whole body—is central to how the brain generates and understands communication.

IDEAS WORTH REMEMBERING

5 ideas

Speech and language are embedded in motor and sensory circuits, not a separate ‘language module’.

Jarvis argues that what we call “language” is implemented inside specialized speech-production and auditory-perception pathways, rather than in an abstract, standalone language center. Forebrain motor circuits controlling the larynx and articulators contain the algorithms for spoken language, while auditory circuits contain the algorithms for understanding it. Evidence comes from comparative work in humans, parrots, and songbirds, which share similar specialized circuits, as well as from direct gene expression parallels in these brain regions.

Vocal learning is rare and defines spoken language; most animals vocalize innately.

Nearly all vertebrates produce innate calls (e.g., human infant crying, dog barking), largely driven by brainstem and hypothalamic circuits. Only a small set—humans, songbirds, parrots, hummingbirds, some marine mammals, and a few others—can learn to imitate novel sounds, a capacity that underpins spoken language. These vocal learners share forebrain circuits that seize control of brainstem vocal motor neurons, allowing learned, flexible sound patterns. Non–vocal learners (e.g., monkeys, chickens, dogs) can understand many words but cannot imitate them.

Critical periods make childhood the optimal window for learning languages and phonemes.

Like songbirds, humans have a developmental window when speech and language are learned most efficiently. During this critical period, phoneme repertoires are shaped and pruned; children exposed to multiple languages retain a broader set of phonemes and can later learn additional languages more easily. Adults still retain plasticity—humans have extra copies of genes like SRGAP2 that prolong juvenile-like brain states—but circuits stabilize to preserve capacity and avoid constant overwriting, making first-time language learning harder later in life.

Reading and writing covertly recruit your speech and auditory systems.

When you read, visual input is routed to speech motor areas; you silently “speak” the words, often generating detectable low-level activity in laryngeal muscles. Those motor signals are then fed to auditory cortex, so you effectively “hear” yourself internally. Writing adds a fourth pathway: hand motor regions adjacent to speech areas convert that internal speech into motor commands for pen or keyboard. This explains why people often must pause speaking to write, and why writing speed must roughly match internal speech tempo to feel fluent.

Dance and rhythmic movement are tightly linked to vocal learning circuits.

Jarvis and others have found that only vocal learning species reliably learn to dance in time with a beat. In birds, vocal-learning song circuits are literally embedded within larger motor pathways for body movement. He proposes a “motor theory of vocal learning origin”: speech circuits evolved via duplication and specialization of preexisting motor circuits. Once tight auditory–vocal integration evolved for speech, it “contaminated” adjacent motor areas, enabling synchronization of whole-body movement to sound—what we experience as dance.

WORDS WORTH SAVING

5 quotes

There really isn’t such a sharp distinction between speech and language in the brain.

Erich Jarvis

Dogs can understand several hundred human speech words… but they can’t say a word.

Erich Jarvis

Hummingbirds hum with their wings and sing with their syrinx… in a coordinated way.

Erich Jarvis

When you read, you are silently speaking what you read in your brain.

Erich Jarvis

If you want to stay cognitively intact into your old age, you better be moving.

Erich Jarvis

Neural circuitry of speech, language, and vocal learningComparative neuroscience: humans, songbirds, parrots, hummingbirds, and primatesCritical periods, bilingualism, and language acquisitionMusic, singing, and dance as motor–auditory integrationGenetic underpinnings of speech circuits and convergent evolutionStuttering, speech disorders, and sensory–motor controlGenome projects, conservation, and the ‘Genome Ark’

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