EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,007 words- 0:00 – 1:45
Tom Segura
- AHAndrew Huberman
Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science, and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Tom Segura. Tom Segura is a renowned comedian, writer, and director. During today's episode, we explore the neuroscience and psychology behind comedy, and we explore the creative process more generally. Tom shares his approach to capturing and developing ideas into narratives that are at once funny and thought-provoking. We discuss the interplay between daily life observations and larger cultural dynamics when developing comedy routines. We spend a fair bit of time discussing the neurobiological basis of humor, and what data and brain lesion patients have taught us about why we find certain ideas novel, funny, or exciting. We also talk about how this relates to the activation reward circuits in the brain, and the seemingly automatic way that things are either funny or not funny to people, suggesting that humor is like taste or smell. You really can't negotiate what works for you or what doesn't. We also discuss emotional contagion and how skilled performers like Tom become masters at reading, shifting, and dancing with the collective energy of crowds, whether in small comedy clubs or large arena shows. So if you're a creative or you're curious about human psychology, or if you simply love to laugh, you'll come away from today's episode having learned a ton of useful information about the creative process and human nature. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, this episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Tom Segura.
- 1:45 – 9:35
Family, Sports, Running
- AHAndrew Huberman
Tom Segura, welcome-
- TSTom Segura
Thanks for having me.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... 'cause we'll let people know who don't already know, yes, we are related.
- TSTom Segura
Yes, we are related. People have asked me so many times the details, and I, you know, I was trying to, like... 'cause I learned about it obviously later, that it was, like, my mom's great-grandmother-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- TSTom Segura
... and your father's great-grandmother-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- TSTom Segura
... were first cousin. They're both Basque, so Northern Spain cousins, and then, you know, generations later, they moved to South America-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yep.
- TSTom Segura
Yours to Argentina, mine to Peru-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yep.
- TSTom Segura
... and that's how we're cousins.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yep.
- TSTom Segura
Yeah, I guess distant cousins, but, uh-
- AHAndrew Huberman
And my dad was on the podcast a little while ago, so-
- TSTom Segura
How did that go? 'Cause I remember we talked about him coming on.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah, it was great. I mean, he's a theoretical physicist by training, so we got to talk about physics-
- TSTom Segura
Jesus Christ.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... but we also got to talk about life. And, uh, I learned a lot from him.
- TSTom Segura
Did you?
- AHAndrew Huberman
I, I learned a lot about him that I've never known before.
- TSTom Segura
In that podcast?
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah, yeah.
- TSTom Segura
Really?
- AHAndrew Huberman
I'll send it to you if you're ever suffering from insomnia.
- TSTom Segura
Oh, I would love to listen to it. He's a theoretical phy- how did I, I didn't even know that.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm, yeah, theorist, chaos theory, and now he's into quantum internet. Yeah.
- TSTom Segura
Jesus Christ. Where does he reside now?
- AHAndrew Huberman
Northern California.
- TSTom Segura
Northern California.
- 9:35 – 12:37
Sponsors: Maui Nui & Helix Sleep
- TSTom Segura
- AHAndrew Huberman
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- 12:37 – 20:16
Ideas, Running, Sleep & Brain, Tools: Exercise for Energy; Phone Outside Room
- AHAndrew Huberman
about the running itself? I was gonna ask you whether or not it changes your mental frame so that you... I don't know, does it- do you get ideas while you run? Do you get ideas after you run more readily or are you just cursing the thing the whole time?
- TSTom Segura
I feel like it's a goal to let my mind drift, because sometimes-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- TSTom Segura
... the negative side of it is, like, you're doing a run and your- your mind is like, "This sucks."
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- TSTom Segura
Right? And you're- you're thinking about how much time is left, and that doesn't produce anything and it's not an- an enjoyable thing. But, like, if the mind goes, if you can let your mind drift, um... It's less about ideas. I feel like in those moments you're- you're kind of just- you're off thinking about more, like, life. Not like create-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- TSTom Segura
... creative thoughts. More like, you know, people and relationships and different things, and, like, that's kind of a nice place to be because then all of a sudden you're like, "Oh," you know?
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- TSTom Segura
"A couple miles just went by."
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah, there's something to be said for these states of wordlessness.
- TSTom Segura
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Where you're not constructing things in complete sentences. There's no sensory input like through a phone or through even... I- I do listen to podcasts or- or books when I run sometimes.
- TSTom Segura
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
The long run. But there's this idea that, uh, a lot of learning and creativity is about purging all the noise, and I find that those long runs, they just kind of- I come out of them just feeling like a bunch of clutter just got cleared.
- TSTom Segura
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
More than I had some, like, insight during the run itself.
- TSTom Segura
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Incidentally, 90% of the effect of exercise on improving brain function when it comes to long, slow distance work is that it raises your level of alertness and arousal so you can do really great work afterwards.
- TSTom Segura
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
High intensity stuff has a bunch of other effects, brain-derived neurotrophic factor, et cetera, but when you see, like, "Exercise improves brain function. Exercise makes you smarter." Exce- most of that is by way of the way- how exercise increases your level of alertness. It kind of puts you in that nice state like, "Oh, now I can sit down and focus."
- TSTom Segura
Yeah. My busiest day is, like, sometimes I have, you know, a very busy day. If I start that day with a- a hard workout-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- TSTom Segura
... I end up having no problem tackling that day.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Isn't that wild?
- TSTom Segura
It is wild.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- TSTom Segura
Because, like, sometimes, like, I'll have a day where, you know, I have to arrive at my studio, let's say, at 10:00 AM for something. And so- and it's just, like, it's gonna be recordings, meetings, pitch meeting, da da da, you know, and then leave here, go to this thing. Like, it's gonna be the entire day. And if I get myself to the gym and I get in, like, a good hour lift.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- TSTom Segura
I come in and, like, I'll notice everyone's like, "You look like you're in a good mood."
- 20:16 – 27:28
Capturing Ideas, Cannabis, Storytelling, Experimentation
- TSTom Segura
insane.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah. What's your writing process? Let's talk about comedy. That's, um, I've been... I've got about a gazillion questions. I'm gonna try and make them really succinct. What- what is your typical process of capturing, um, you call them bits, right?
- TSTom Segura
Yeah, for standup it's a bit, yeah. Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Uh, what's your typical process of capturing ideas? Like, do you- do you voice memo into the phone? Do you write things down?
- TSTom Segura
I've done pretty much every- every version of it.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- TSTom Segura
Uh, voice notes while high. Sometimes you can listen to them later and you're like, "Holy shit."
- AHAndrew Huberman
Are you a cannabis user?
- TSTom Segura
I mean, sometimes.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- TSTom Segura
I'm not like a heavy user.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- TSTom Segura
But, uh, a lot of times at night if you take something and you go to sleep, you're- you're trying to go to sleep, your brain is like, "Nah, I got ideas." (laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
Is that right?
- TSTom Segura
Oh, yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I haven't done cannabis since a- a long time ago, um, so yeah.
- TSTom Segura
Oh, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then sometimes you listen, like, uh, 'cause you're convinced, you're like, "This is one of the most brilliant ideas that's ever-"
- AHAndrew Huberman
Have you ever had great ideas that stick on things, yeah?
- TSTom Segura
Yeah, I've had- I've had- I've had good ones that- that stick. Um, sometimes the wording's a little off, but yeah, I've had- I've had ones that I actually do enjoy afterwards, and then sometimes you're like, "This is..." You can hear yourself smiling, like, you know, 'cause you- you can tell someone's emotion-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- TSTom Segura
... by their voice. So I can hear that I'm like, "Dude, then..." Like... (laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
Oh, because you're recording into Voicememo.
- TSTom Segura
I'm recording into my- in my phone.
- AHAndrew Huberman
So- so let me get the process. So you- you're heading up to sleep and you- you take a, like an edible.
- TSTom Segura
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
This is comedy school 101. (laughs)
- TSTom Segura
Yeah, yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
No, I'm just kidding. Hey, listen, you're- you're the pro. Um, and you- you go to Voice Memos, you're- you're there eyes closed and you- you start riffing on something?
- TSTom Segura
Yeah, you're... Uh, it's like you're... Y- it feels like it's separate from you, right? Because like-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- 27:28 – 31:52
Ideas & Set List, Performance
- TSTom Segura
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
If something works or you feel like it's a beginning, it's the start of a thread that could work-
- TSTom Segura
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... do you end up writing it down for later? Like, like, you're cuing yourself, like, uh, you know, the walk with my son bit or something like that? Or it's just-
- TSTom Segura
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Or it's all in your head?
- TSTom Segura
Uh, well, you kinda have it all in your head, and then, I was gonna show you, like, I have this that's, I'll, I'll look at this, like, before I go on stage, right?
- AHAndrew Huberman
Okay.
- TSTom Segura
Which is like...
- AHAndrew Huberman
Tom's showing me. We can get a, a photo of this-
- TSTom Segura
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... if he lets us. It's, it's a bunch of Sharpie-written single words.
- TSTom Segura
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Gitmo, jail, teacher, duck, Huberman. Just kidding. Augusta, kill my wife, um... (laughs)
- TSTom Segura
Yeah, it's like, so those, like-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Hitler, um, (laughs) Tunisia, make shit. This is amazing.
- TSTom Segura
Yeah, that's, that's a, that's a, a set list for the, for an hour.
- AHAndrew Huberman
If you think about the, the range of things in this relatively short list-
- TSTom Segura
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... um, as a partial representation of what goes on in Tom Segura's brain-
- TSTom Segura
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... you get a little-
- TSTom Segura
Well, what's interesting-
- AHAndrew Huberman
... you get concerned.
- TSTom Segura
... is that I, another way, like, I think comedians would look at it is you kind of start to go, these are 15-minute chunks.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- TSTom Segura
'Cause when you do an hour, a lot of comics think of it as four 15-minute chunks.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- TSTom Segura
Right? So you go like, okay, this is kinda like setting the table chunk.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- 31:52 – 40:56
Wife, Jokes, Reframing Content; Cancel Culture, Audience Reaction
- TSTom Segura
- AHAndrew Huberman
You happen to be married to a comedian.
- TSTom Segura
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Which probably helps your home life in the sense that, you know... Has she ever been offended by one of your jokes?
- TSTom Segura
You know, early on, when we- sh- I remember, like, we would have conversations where I would s- I- I more- it- it was more like the fact that I would- I remember I would- I'd pitch, like, a joke idea, and she would be like, "That's fucking awful."
- AHAndrew Huberman
(laughs)
- TSTom Segura
And- and then I would- I told her, I go, "You know, whenever you think something is awful, I know it's gonna be good on stage," like... And she was like, she was like, "That's horrible to say." I was like, "No, it's true. Like, if- if you have disdain for what I said, then I'm pretty confident that it's gonna work." And it was kinda like that. But, um, no, for the most part, no. And she says wildly inappropriate and crazy, funny things, like, often m- way over my line, you know what I mean? Not where I'm offended, but I'm like, "Jesus Christ." Like yeah, she says crazy shit, really crazy.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Has she ever offended you to the point where- where you're like, "You- you can't tell that joke in public"?
- TSTom Segura
Um...
- AHAndrew Huberman
Our family will suffer.
- TSTom Segura
No, I've never had- we've never had that conversation.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- TSTom Segura
Sometimes, we have what makes this joke, uh, digestible conversations-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- TSTom Segura
... where, like, we talk about a bit, and we're like, "And then this is- the punchline is, like, in this world," and it's like, okay, you gotta find a way to say that that is gonna be digestible to the- to the- like... So you'll- you actually look for, like, your own advantage. What I mean is, like, you know, as a woman, I go, like, "You can shit on women harder 'cause you're a woman." So like, you should find your way into that bit from the perspective that, like, you're actually- you know what I mean? Like, you're actually shi- 'cause, like, if you're a woman, you can- it's like, a Black comic can talk about Black people, right? Like, that's- it's- you're talking about your own. So like, we'll talk about things like that, like, "You can- you can take this angle," and then that- and then the joke becomes digestible, so we'll w- we'll talk about, like, reframing-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- TSTom Segura
... material. And then, to me, she's like, "Yeah, you're just a White guy. You can- apparently, you guys can say anything." (laughs) I'm like-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Oh yeah, really? On the other hand, comedians and what's allowed in comedy at a given time has a- a powerful influence on, um, culture.
- TSTom Segura
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
What- what you can say, what you can't say. Has any comedian ever been canceled for what they said as part of a bit? I mean, we've got these examples of these, I- I consider them kind of sad instances, where people kind of break down on stage, have an interaction with someone in the audience, and it really hurts their career, and it's super offensive, but that's clearly not part of the bit.
- TSTom Segura
Right.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Um, has a comedian ever been canceled for, like, here was the bit, and they're done?
- TSTom Segura
Uh, I don't- I can't tell you that it comes to, like, the top of my head-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Me either.
- TSTom Segura
... thinking about that. I know there's been, like- I remember there's a Canadian comic that- and Canada has some, like, bizarre, to my experience, free speech rules.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Oh, okay.
- TSTom Segura
And so-
- AHAndrew Huberman
I thought you were gonna say comics. I was like- I- I always think of-
- TSTom Segura
No.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... of Canadians as so, um, you know, kind of kind and- and well-behaved, but-
- 40:56 – 48:26
Jokes, Self & Amusement; Evolution & New Material
- TSTom Segura
- AHAndrew Huberman
I'm always fascinated by comics who will smirk or laugh a little bit at their own joke.
- TSTom Segura
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Um, and assuming that certain jokes and bits work exceptionally well and you carry them forward from, you know, trying it out to, you know, Netflix specials-
- TSTom Segura
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... or big venues, huge ven- you do huge venues, you and Bert do huge venues. Do you ever get tired of the material and worry that your response is not going to, um, that your amusement won't be there and therefore they won't respond to it? This is two questions woven, I'm realizing.
- TSTom Segura
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Do you think your own amusement with a- with a joke has an impact on how it lands? That's question one. And woven in with that is, how do you then work with the idea that, uh, every time you tell a joke, it might not, um, be as funny as the previous time?
- TSTom Segura
No, those are- those are great questions. Um, yeah, I- I feel like if I'm smirking or laughing at a joke of mine, it's probably organic. I don't try to, like, manufacture one. Um, you still want to enjoy the process of performing it.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- TSTom Segura
And when you lose that enjoyment of performing it, I do think the audience knows on, like, an unspoken level.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- TSTom Segura
There's something about it that doesn't come across the same way. And yeah, you- you sense it. And I think typically what happens, what's happened to me over time is if you're on tour and you're kind of like your brain is like walking up to this bit, like you- you know it's next, and you start to, like, internally go like, "Ugh, this fucking bit." Like, what happens naturally is you start to drop it.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- TSTom Segura
And it's- you're- you're essentially listening to yourself. It's one of those g- it's like the same way you go, "I should... I don't like this person," right?
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- TSTom Segura
You go like, "I don't think I want to be friends with this per-" And you- you kind of like don't return a text (laughs) or you go, "I'm not gonna hang out with you."
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah, slow exit.
- TSTom Segura
It's a slow exit.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah, yeah.
- TSTom Segura
And what happens is you drop it. And the great thing about dropping it is your brain goes, "Hey, you have room for something now."
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- TSTom Segura
And that room for something also prompts your brain to start thinking of new things. That's how you kind of come up with new material.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- TSTom Segura
Is that you... But you have to... This is the danger, by the way, of these comedians. Sometimes there's these comics who are, like, really funny, really talented people, and they'll do... they'll have a 20-minute set, right? Like, you'll- you'll be working in clubs and you see them do a 20-minute set and it- and they murder, right? They fucking kill so hard. And then like five years later, you see them and they're doing that 20-minute set.And what happens is... It's a, it's like a very natural thing that you just have to deal with is they have this great fear of not killing that hard anymore. So, they don't stop doing that 20 minutes. And by not stopping, they just stop evolving, and they stop creating. And they- they're just like, they're the, they're the 20-minute set guy. You go like, "Yeah, they have that great 20 minutes." And then it starts to get dated, and then it... You know what I mean?
- AHAndrew Huberman
Like MMMbop.
- TSTom Segura
It, it's exactly- (laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
Only s- a fraction of the audience will know what I'm talk- there was a song that was, like, the song for a summer. Y- you could replace MMMbop with any-
- TSTom Segura
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... like, a song for a summer way back when-
- 48:26 – 51:24
Sponsors: AG1 & David Protein
- TSTom Segura
- AHAndrew Huberman
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- 51:24 – 59:02
Surprise, Hidden Thoughts; Acting
- AHAndrew Huberman
On the topic of the, the finding the material humorous or being excited about the material being crucial to how it lands with the audience-
- TSTom Segura
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... I'm gonna make this very brief. When I was an undergraduate, I was interested in, uh, what makes something funny, the, the psychology and neuroscience of humor, and there wasn't a whole lot of neuroscience on it at that time. But, um, the basic takeaway from the literature, as I recall, was that the listener thinks that a narrative is going one way, and then there's this surprise element.
- TSTom Segura
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Something you didn't anticipate coming. I think that characterizes a lot of bits and a lot of jokes.
- TSTom Segura
100%.
- AHAndrew Huberman
It's like, "Whoa." It's the pop. However, I've also seen you do bits and other people do bits where you're headed down a trail and I'm thinking, "Oh, no. He's not going there, is he?"
- TSTom Segura
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And you go there, and that's hysterical also.
- TSTom Segura
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
So is there a name for this? Or how does it work?
- TSTom Segura
No, I think... I mean, I... You're right. So the, the most basic necessity for, I think, comedy at a very baseline level to explain it or, you know, define it is the element of surprise, right?
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- TSTom Segura
The surprise is like... Uh, so it's that thing, if you go, "I know where this is going," you're not gonna react the same way.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- TSTom Segura
If it gets you, it's, "Oh my God." But that second description of like, is that person going somewhere? I think that satisfies something in human beings, which is somebody saying the thing that we all want to say. And, and you, you, you can't say it, you can't say it, you can't say it in polite society. You can't say it at a, at a nice dinner function. You can't say it at work. And you're just like, "God, I... This is what I think," and you know other people think it. And then the guy's up there and he's going like, "Hey, you wanna hear some shit?" (laughs) And like somebody says it, and everyone goes, this is... It becomes a release. It's a release of like, oh, he's saying the thing that we all wish we could say. And you're saying it, you know, it's- it's a very particular thing 'cause it, it actually is... It works because you're in that building too.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- TSTom Segura
It's you... It works because you're... You all have the unspoken agreement that this is a place to do this in, right?
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- TSTom Segura
It's still different. Like, if I just walk up to you on the street and start saying that shit, you're like-
- AHAndrew Huberman
(laughs)
- TSTom Segura
... "Jesus Christ, dude." Like, "You're a psycho."
- AHAndrew Huberman
Lock him up.
- TSTom Segura
Yeah. It's like, but like in this context... So both things are... Satisfy something, I think, in the, in the humor realm, right? The element of surprise will always be something, like the unexpected.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- TSTom Segura
But there's also this, like, condition I think we live with where we go, "We all think this, but we can't say it." And that get- that's a very satisfying thing when somebody says it.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Well, I, uh, had the great benefit of getting a sneak peek at Bad Thoughts.
- TSTom Segura
Oh, yeah. Thanks.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Um, and it's amazing. Uh, people should definitely check it out. And, um, I don't want to give anything away, but the, the second one in the sequence that I watched-
- TSTom Segura
Mm-hmm.
- 59:02 – 1:05:40
Voice Impersonation, Kids, Strength Training, Activities
- AHAndrew Huberman
you do voices very well, in particular the voices of your kids.
- TSTom Segura
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Like, you're able... I always think that, um, when somebody, uh, impersonates somebody else, it's about grabbing the key elements.
- TSTom Segura
Yes.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Like, not the whole piece. They don't, like, turn around and, like, come back as, you know, like-
- TSTom Segura
Right.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Like, some people can just grab a few key elements of somebody, in this case, someone we've never met.
- TSTom Segura
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
It was your sons.
- TSTom Segura
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And we feel like we know them and we're getting the, like, what clearly are key features of their personality coming through.
- TSTom Segura
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Do you practice those? Or you just observe and it just is kind of embedded in you?
- TSTom Segura
I think it's observed and embedded.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- TSTom Segura
And I think w- in that case, in particular, 'cause w- with your kids, there's this thing that happens where you talk about your kids a lot not on stage. In other words, you know, I'm talking to my sisters or I'm talking to a friend about the kids. So you're, you're kind of like... you get this extra practice about them because they are so much something that gre- people always are like, "How are your kids," right? And so you're just like, "Oh, I got home. This little shit came in here. He was like, 'Hey, fucking pick me up.'"
- AHAndrew Huberman
(laughs)
- TSTom Segura
You know, like, like, we... So you, you start, like, doing impressions-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Which one is that?
- TSTom Segura
That's the little guy.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Oh, yeah. He sounds like a piece of work, man.
- TSTom Segura
He is a piece of work, dude. He is something else. He's like... It's so funny, we call, sometimes we call him Little Joe Pesci 'cause he's just like, "What the fuck?" (laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
(laughs)
- TSTom Segura
We're like, "Yo, man." Like, I don't say that-
- AHAndrew Huberman
How old is he?
- TSTom Segura
... in front of him. He's six.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Oh my goodness.
- TSTom Segura
He's six and he's like, "He's fucking, fucking with me all day, dad." And I'm like talking about-
- AHAndrew Huberman
(laughs) Did he get that from you or from your wife?
- TSTom Segura
I feel like it's more her.
- 1:05:40 – 1:13:11
Repeating Jokes; State Changes, Crowds & Energy
- AHAndrew Huberman
is a perfect cue for me to ask what I was going to ask earlier when we were talking about when you are amused by something, you, you really delight in telling this bit.
- TSTom Segura
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
It, it impacts the audience in how it lands. There's a very famous patient in neuroscience, probably the most famous patient, his name is H.M. It's a... you know, we don't know his real name. He's dead now, but he had a lesion to his hippocampus, this brain area involved in memory. And he was studied extensively for decades. And most of what we know about human memory is from this guy. All the other stuff we know from mouse studies, a little bit from monkey studies.
- TSTom Segura
Wow.
- AHAndrew Huberman
So there's a very well-known study where you go in and, and he has no, uh, retrograde memory. He can't remember anything that, that you told him before. Like, within a matter of seconds, he forgets it completely. And they've tested this every which way, okay?
- TSTom Segura
Holy shit.
- AHAndrew Huberman
His brain is now in a jar, it's been scanned, et cetera. But... so the, the study goes something like this, you go in and you tell H.M. a joke, and he laughs, and he thinks it's very funny. Then you leave, you come back and he doesn't remember who you are.
- TSTom Segura
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Uh, this has been tested again and again. He's not fibbing, okay? And there are a number of ways that you can, you can measure this, especially if you make it, um, sadly like some survival-based things like-
- TSTom Segura
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... you tell him the joke again and he laughs again, but a little less, and the next time a little less and a little less. And eventually he's like, "Yeah, that was not really funny."
- TSTom Segura
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Same joke. He does not remember the joke, but there seems to be some unconscious memory of the joke, which I always found fascinating. So it's like... it's almost like the, the narrative around something, we, we get saturated to it. We're all familiar with a friend at a dinner party that tells a joke and everybody laughs-
- TSTom Segura
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... and then they make the cardinal mistake, which is to tell the joke again at the same dinner.
- TSTom Segura
Mm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And it just burns it.
- TSTom Segura
It burns.
- AHAndrew Huberman
It burns it there and it burns it the previous time. So what do you... I mean, I'm not asking you to be a neurologist or a neuroscientist, but-
- TSTom Segura
No, no.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... but what do you think is going on here?
- TSTom Segura
Well, th-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Not necessarily in H.M. the patient, but there's something about telling that funny punchline twice-
- TSTom Segura
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... that you just... I feel like men, like guys seem to do this more. It's like, you got it, you nailed it.
- TSTom Segura
Yes.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Do not tell the joke again.
- TSTom Segura
Well, every guy thinks he can fight, fuck, is funny, and can drive. Those are the four things that every guy thinks he's awesome at. And you're lucky if you're marginal at one (laughs) . Like, every guy thinks... you know what I mean? Every dude is like, "I can do... I can drive. I'm hilarious. I can fight. Chicks," like, every guy has this thing. And then the, uh, more self-aware ones go like, "I'm not good at these. I'm good at this one."
- AHAndrew Huberman
So train.
- TSTom Segura
(laughs) You know what I mean? Like that's-
Episode duration: 2:17:18
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