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Understanding & Treating Addiction | Dr. Anna Lembke

In this episode I interview Dr. Anna Lembke, MD, Chief of the Stanford Addiction Medicine Dual Diagnosis Clinic at Stanford University School of Medicine. Dr. Lembke is a psychiatrist and expert in treating addictions of all kinds: drugs, alcohol, food, sex, video games, gambling, medication etc. She is also an expert in the opioid crisis and the author of Dopamine Nation: Finding Balance in the Age of Indulgence. We discuss the biology and psychology of why people become addicted to certain substances and behaviors and the key role that our “dopamine balance” plays in creating addiction. We also explore the science and practice of how to conquer addictions, why people relapse and how to avoid relapsing. Dr. Lembke shares her expertise on topics closely related to addiction such as community, shame and lying, and she explains why telling the truth—even about the most basic things in daily life—adjusts dopamine levels in our brains. This episode is an important one for anyone struggling with addictions of any kind, for their friends and families and for health care professionals. It is also for anyone who has defeated addiction and is determined to stay clean. Last but not least, it helps explain why all humans do what we do and how we can all maintain a healthy sense of pleasure seeking in life. For an up-to-date list of our current sponsors, please visit our website: https://www.hubermanlab.com/sponsors. Previous sponsors mentioned in this podcast episode may no longer be affiliated with us. Social & Website Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hubermanlab Threads: https://www.threads.net/@hubermanlab Twitter: https://twitter.com/hubermanlab Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/hubermanlab TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@hubermanlab Website: https://www.hubermanlab.com Newsletter: https://www.hubermanlab.com/newsletter Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3thCToZ Spotify: https://spoti.fi/3PYzuFs Dr. Anna Lembke Website: https://www.annalembke.com Stanford Profile: https://profiles.stanford.edu/anna-lembke Dopamine Nation (new book): https://amzlink.to/az09noicps3RR Timestamps 00:00:00 Dr. Anna Lembke, Addiction Expert 00:02:25 Disclaimer & Sponsors: ROKA, InsideTracker, Headspace 00:07:00 Dopamine, Happiness & Impulsivity 00:15:56 What Is Pleasure? 00:18:20 Addiction, Boredom & Passion for Life 00:24:00 Pain-Pleasure Balance Controls Addiction 00:29:10 Dopamine Deficits, Anhedonia 00:30:47 Are All Addictions the Same? 00:35:38 Boredom & Anxiety Lead to Creativity 00:40:35 Finding Your Passion Starts with Boredom & Action Steps 00:50:05 How to Break an Addiction 00:55:25 Relapse, Craving & Triggers 01:07:40 Can People Get Addicted To “Sobriety”? 01:11:45 Are We All Wired for Addiction? 01:15:57 Bizarre Addiction 01:18:14 Recovered Addicts Are Heroes 01:20:10 Lying, Truth Telling, Guilt & Shame 01:30:40 Clinical Applications of: Ibogaine, Ayahuasca, Psilocybin & MDMA 01:40:20 Social Media Addiction 01:51:25 Narcissism 01:53:30 Goal Seeking, Success & Surprise 01:58:10 Reciprocity 02:01:15 Closing Comments, Resources Disclaimer: https://www.hubermanlab.com/disclaimer

Andrew HubermanhostAnna Lembkeguest
Aug 15, 20212h 2mWatch on YouTube ↗

At a glance

WHAT IT’S REALLY ABOUT

Dopamine, Addiction, and Finding Balance In a World of Excess

  1. Neuropsychiatrist Dr. Anna Lembke explains how a single dopamine-based reward system underlies both substance and behavioral addictions, from opioids and alcohol to work, sex, gambling, gaming, and social media. She introduces the pleasure–pain “balance” model, where repeated high-dopamine experiences drive the brain into a chronic dopamine-deficit (pain) state that feels like depression and fuels compulsive use. Recovery, she argues, depends on abstaining long enough to let this system reset, re-engaging in low-potency, real-world rewards, and rebuilding honesty and community. The conversation also explores boredom, passion, social media, truth-telling, and why people in long-term recovery often become powerful models for living a meaningful, balanced life.

IDEAS WORTH REMEMBERING

5 ideas

Addiction is one core dopamine process, not many separate diseases.

Dr. Lembke emphasizes that the same mesolimbic dopamine circuitry underlies addiction to heroin, alcohol, gambling, sex, porn, work, gaming, social media, and even narratives or people. The defining feature of an addictive stimulus is that it releases dopamine in the reward pathway in a fast, high, and reliable way. Once someone has been severely addicted to one “drug” (including behaviors), they are more vulnerable to cross-addiction with others, because the underlying system has been sensitized.

Pleasure and pain share circuitry and operate as a balance.

One of the most important findings, Lembke says, is that pleasure and pain are co-located in the brain and function like a see-saw. Any pleasurable stimulus tips the balance to one side via a spike of dopamine above baseline; the brain then compensates by tipping to the opposite side—reducing dopamine below baseline—creating a brief pain/deficit state and craving. With repeated, high-intensity use, the brain overcompensates chronically, downregulating dopamine signaling and leaving the person in a persistent anhedonic, dysphoric state where nothing but the drug feels good.

A 30‑day period of complete abstinence can reset dopamine pathways.

In clinical practice, Lembke finds that about 30 days of zero engagement with the addictive substance or behavior is typically needed for dopamine receptors and signaling to re-regulate. The first ~2 weeks are usually miserable—anxiety, irritability, insomnia, dysphoria, and obsessive craving—because the person is living entirely in the dopamine-deficit state. Around week three the “sun starts to come out,” and by week four most people feel substantially better and can begin to enjoy everyday rewards again. This is not sufficient for everyone, but it is often the critical reset step.

Modern comfort, boredom, and low friction increase vulnerability to addiction.

Lembke argues that in affluent modern societies most survival needs are easily met and leisure time is abundant, especially among lower-educated groups. This creates a paradoxically “hard” environment: very little real-world friction or necessity, and a lot of boredom. Some temperaments need much more friction and intensity to feel alive; lacking it, they gravitate toward high-dopamine experiences (drugs, porn, gaming, social media, extreme work) to escape a pervasive sense that “normal life isn’t interesting enough.”

Recovery means embracing mild boredom, daily service, and process over passion.

Instead of endlessly searching for a perfect “passion” that will rescue them from addiction, patients in recovery often succeed by focusing on what needs to be done right where they are—cleaning, showing up to work, taking out the trash, helping others. Lembke highlights the 12‑step maxim of “one day at a time”: building a string of good days focused on simple, honorable work and service. Over months and years, this process-oriented living can yield surprising success and meaning without being the explicit goal.

WORDS WORTH SAVING

5 quotes

Pleasure and pain are co-located, which means the same parts of the brain that process pleasure also process pain, and they work like a balance.

Dr. Anna Lembke

If we expose ourselves chronically to substances or behaviors that repeatedly release large amounts of dopamine in our brain’s reward pathway, we can change our tonic baseline and actually lower it over time.

Dr. Anna Lembke

Stop looking for your passion, and instead look around right where you are. Not what do I want to do, but what is the work that needs to be done?

Dr. Anna Lembke

You will feel worse before you feel better… usually you’ll feel worse for two weeks, but if you can make it through those first two weeks, the sun will start to come out in week three.

Dr. Anna Lembke

We’re all wired for addiction, and if you’re not addicted yet, it’s just right around the corner—especially with the incredible panoply of new drugs and behaviors that are out there.

Dr. Anna Lembke

Dopamine neurobiology: tonic vs phasic release, pleasure–pain balanceAddiction as a unified brain process across substances and behaviorsDopamine deficit state, anhedonia, and the 30‑day abstinence “reset”Temperament, impulsivity, boredom, modern life and addiction riskRecovery tools: truth-telling, community (12‑step), daily structure, serviceSocial media and technology as engineered, high-potency dopamine drugsPsychedelic-assisted therapy and skepticism around “quick fixes”

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