What Humans, Animals and Plants Tell Us About Consciousness | Michael Pollan

1. 0:00 – 2:50

   Michael Pollan

   1. MPMichael Pollan0:00

      I came out of this experience of studying consciousness and looking at all the theories of consciousness. I don't wanna give it away, but we have no idea about consciousness really, how it's, how, how brain matter generates consciousness, if indeed that's how it happens.

   2. AHAndrew Huberman0:15

      Yeah.

   3. MPMichael Pollan0:15

      And there are people who doubt that's how it happens. It could be that the brain channels consciousness, right? I mean, that if you conceive of consciousness as, like, electromagnetic waves-

   4. AHAndrew Huberman0:25

      Mm-hmm

   5. MPMichael Pollan0:25

      ... um, brains are like radio receivers or-

   6. AHAndrew Huberman0:28

      Mm-hmm

   7. MPMichael Pollan0:28

      ... TV receivers. You wouldn't, you wouldn't look in the TV set for the woman who gave you the weather report. You know-

   8. AHAndrew Huberman0:34

      Right

   9. MPMichael Pollan0:34

      ... she's not there.

   10. AHAndrew Huberman0:35

       Right.

   11. MPMichael Pollan0:35

       She's somewhere else. So I don't know that that's true, but coming out of this experience of studying this, I don't dismiss an idea like that. You have to keep an open mind, because our presumption that, you know, consciousness is an emergent property of bl- brain complexity, that idea doesn't have much traction. [laughs]

   12. AHAndrew Huberman0:55

       Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. [Instrumental music] I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Michael Pollan, author of landmark books including How to Change Your Mind, which is about psychedelics, The Botany of Desire, which is about how humans and plants co-evolved and collaborated to thrive, and The Omnivore's Dilemma, which is an incredible book about food and nutrition, and most recently, the book A World Appears: A Journey into Consciousness. Michael Pollan is considered by many, including me, to be one of the most learned and thoughtful people on topics that matter to all humans and the things that we can do to improve the human experience. Today we talk about many topics, but mostly we focus on consciousness, and Michael brings forward a new perspective that integrates the best science on this topic as well as philosophy and beyond. And we get deep into this notion of the ego, meaning our notion of self, and how the ego is both important for and limits our understanding of ourselves and life. I should emphasize that the conversation is not as abstract as I'm making it sound. What I love about Michael Pollan is he makes these topics very clear and very concrete, and in many cases, actionable. Thanks to Michael, by the end of today's conversation, you'll be placed at the front edge of the conversation and the data on this thing that we call consciousness. You'll also be versed on the latest of plant or what is sometimes called psychedelic medicine, and perhaps most importantly, what you can do in your life to gain new perspective on yourself, others, and the planet at large. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Michael Pollan.

2. 2:50 – 6:30

   Wendell Berry, Nature

   1. AHAndrew Huberman2:50

      Michael Pollan, welcome.

   2. MPMichael Pollan2:52

      Thank you. Good to be here.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman2:53

      Longtime fan of your books, of you. I've had the privilege of s-speaking on stage next to you, although mostly I was just listening to you because you are this amazing intersection of science writer, you've written about food, psychedelics, now consciousness. You'll tell us about your new work on microbiome. I feel like there's also some Wendell Berry woven in there.

   4. MPMichael Pollan3:16

      Oh, big, big Wendell Berry fan.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman3:17

      Good, I didn't insult you. I didn't trip out that-

   6. MPMichael Pollan3:19

      Not at all

   7. AHAndrew Huberman3:19

      ... you know-

   8. MPMichael Pollan3:20

      We just lost him, too.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman3:21

      Oh, is that right?

   10. MPMichael Pollan3:22

       He died, like, two weeks ago. Yeah.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman3:23

       Oh my goodness.

   12. MPMichael Pollan3:24

       I know.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman3:25

       I'm like, I'm, like, a huge Wendell Berry fan.

   14. MPMichael Pollan3:27

       Really? Me too.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman3:27

       I mean, oh my goodness.

   16. MPMichael Pollan3:28

       He, he taught me how to write and he taught me how to think about c- certain things, but I... No, he had a huge influence on... I was very fond of him. We did-

   17. AHAndrew Huberman3:36

       Did you ever meet him?

   18. MPMichael Pollan3:37

       Oh, yeah. We had, w- he, I interviewed him on stage a few times. He interviewed me, uh, in Lexington, Kentucky, and, um, about one of my books. And I went to his house, uh, and saw the long-legged house where he writes on the river. He was always trying to convince people like us about the beauty of the tobacco culture.

   19. AHAndrew Huberman3:57

       Mm-hmm.

   20. MPMichael Pollan3:59

       And he kinda bracketed the cigarette piece [laughs] and the lung cancer piece. [laughs] But the culture was so beautiful, and it was the one time where the whole community got together and racial lines were crossed, and the, and the barns are gorgeous, the, you know, the, the, the tobacco barns with the slats for drying. So he, he wanted me to see those, uh, when I, when I came there.

   21. AHAndrew Huberman4:20

       Amazing. Yeah, I, I was feeling a little anxious about bringing in that reference in case you weren't a fan or you didn't like his work, but clearly, uh, he was calling in because, um-

   22. MPMichael Pollan4:29

       He was

   23. AHAndrew Huberman4:30

       ... and for those who don't know, Wendell Berry is this, uh, just magnificent poet who-

   24. MPMichael Pollan4:34

       And farmer-

   25. AHAndrew Huberman4:35

       And farmer

   26. MPMichael Pollan4:36

       ... and essayist. Yeah. And he, um, you know, a- actually, when I was writing my first book, Second Nature, I was trying to figure out how to behave in the garden, um, which is a microcosm of how do we behave in nature, right? In other words, I had pests. Uh, I had problems. I had fertility issues. And the American tradition of thinking about nature, which goes back to Thoreau and John Muir and Emerson, is all about celebrating the w- the wilderness and being a spectator in nature. And of course, the gardener can't afford to do that. You have to act, or you're not gonna have anything to eat. I had a head full of Thoreau and Emerson from college and graduate school, and I was kinda stymied about, like, what do I do about weeds? You know? They're, you know, Thoreau's telling me weeds have just as much right to be in your garden as the bean plant, which is crazy. But it was Wendell who, who, w- would write these essays, and he, and he convinced me, you know, he said, "We have a legitimate quarrel with nature," and that our relationship is, you know, we do have to make changes in nature to, to, for us to survive, and that's kinda who we are, is, um, the species who remakes nature in various ways. But it has to be done, uh, sort of more like a marriage than a domination. And, uh, so he just had a new way of thinking about how to relate to nature that really helped me and, and clarified my whole view of environmentalism. So yeah, he's a great hero.

   27. AHAndrew Huberman6:05

       Amazing. I'm saddened to hear that he passed, but he certainly left behind amazing-

   28. MPMichael Pollan6:09

       I think he was 92.

   29. AHAndrew Huberman6:10

       Um, well, that's a-

   30. MPMichael Pollan6:11

       Yeah
3. 6:30 – 10:04

   Consciousness; Sentience

   1. AHAndrew Huberman6:30

      Let's talk about consciousness.

   2. MPMichael Pollan6:32

      Mm-hmm.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman6:32

      As a neuroscientist, I was taught to avoid this-

   4. MPMichael Pollan6:34

      [laughs]

   5. AHAndrew Huberman6:35

      ... issue. Um-

   6. MPMichael Pollan6:36

      I hear it was the kiss of death at a certain point, right?

   7. AHAndrew Huberman6:38

      Neuroscientists who had, were already very accomplished and famous in some specific domain, like memory or neuromuscular junctions or whatever, could talk about it. They had permission once they had their prizes and their-

   8. MPMichael Pollan6:49

      Mm-hmm

   9. AHAndrew Huberman6:49

      ... um, stature. But some people have died on the bed of nails that is the consciousness discussion.

   10. MPMichael Pollan6:56

       I almost did. [laughs]

   11. AHAndrew Huberman6:58

       [laughs] Clearly not, but, uh, yeah, but maybe you can tell us why it, why it's so, so precarious. But it's hard to define, I think is part of it. And, uh, kudos to you for jumping in with, uh, both feet, uh, on this one. So after having written a book about consciousness, essentially, do you think that we can describe it in a sentence? Can we give it an operational definition or?

   12. MPMichael Pollan7:22

       It's such a strange phenomenon 'cause there's nothing we know with more certainty than the fact that we're conscious. It's the only thing we can be sure of. Everything else we know through consciousness, right? Everything else is an inference, but we have this thing that we know we have, but defining it is difficult. So there are some very simple definitions, like subjective experience. Um, that's pretty good. Uh, your toaster doesn't have subjective experience, and I would argue AIs don't have subjective experience, but we can talk about that later. Another popular, I don't know if it's a definition exactly, is, uh, Thomas Nagel, the, uh, the, the philosopher in the 1970s wrote a, a brilliant essay called What Is It Like To Be A Bat? And his point was, if it is like anything, then you're conscious. So even though we don't know exactly what it's like to be a bat-

   13. AHAndrew Huberman8:15

       Mm

   14. MPMichael Pollan8:15

       ... we can kind of imagine a creature that navigates the world through sonar, through sound waves instead of, uh, light, photons. And so, okay, we can imagine that, so yes, bats are conscious by that definition. Um, so is it like something to be a computer is a real question that I think we're gonna have to face. That's kind of what I use as a definition. There's a lot of bells and whistles that, that human consciousness has above that. We're not just aware, but we're aware that we're aware. We have self-reflection or metacognition, emotion, you know, add that in. So I think humans have a very elaborated kind of consciousness compared to some other creatures. I make a distinction in the book between sentience and consciousness that some scientists make, and I find really useful. Sentience being a more basic kind of ground floor of consciousness th- that, uh, includes awareness of your environment and a recognition of changes, and whether they're good or bad, and that may be universal. I mean, that may be a property of life. Um, you can make a case that, uh, plants have sentience, that single-celled creatures have sentience, and it may be something you need to survive in an environment that's constantly changing, that you can't program instinctually everything you need to know, so that this would be very useful. And consciousness is how we do sentience. You know, we've added on all these things, and every creature has its own version of sentience based on their body type, their sensorium, their, the scale of s- uh, at which they live in, in time and space, 'cause it's kind of, to, to, to take our i- our, our version of consciousness and make that the standard for everybody seems kinda crazy.

4. 10:04 – 13:52

   Environmental Response, Plant Intelligence; Self-Recognition

   1. AHAndrew Huberman10:04

      This thing about being able to respond to the environment being some key component of consciousness, um, a plant can respond to the environment. A, a barnacle-

   2. MPMichael Pollan10:14

      Right

   3. AHAndrew Huberman10:14

      ... can respond to the environment at-

   4. MPMichael Pollan10:15

      A bacteria can.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman10:16

      Bacteria can. They can light sense. It's, they actually know the difference between morning and evening. They-

   6. MPMichael Pollan10:21

      And they have chemotaxis. They know between, the difference between something that's good to eat and something that's toxic.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman10:26

      Do you think they know they know? This is the piece-

   8. MPMichael Pollan10:28

      Yeah

   9. AHAndrew Huberman10:28

      ... that I feel like the, the res- the responding and the awareness that one is responding is maybe where, in my mind, I wanna draw the line for some reason. Like, a plant will, you know, you know, furl and unfurl, uh, when, in the presence of light, but does it know it's responding and why? I mean, I suppose we all the time respond to things and don't know why, but usually, like I, if I take a sip of this tea and, and it's too hot, um, I have some sense of what I'm going to do next and why.

   10. MPMichael Pollan10:57

       Yeah.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman10:57

       Whereas I feel like the, the other stuff is just reflexive.

   12. MPMichael Pollan11:00

       Yeah. It's reflexive, but it, I, I don't think it's, it's, uh, always programmed. I think that there are novel situations that even a plant confronts, where they have to have an intelligent response that isn't necessarily, um, something programmed in their genes. I mean, I, I took a deep dive into, uh, this field of plant intelligence, which is fascinating. I mean, the things we're learning of, that plants can do that you would not have guessed. I mean, you can take a corn plant and, uh, it can navigate a maze. You can give it a maze and, and put some, uh, fertilizer, some ammonium nitrate in one, like, corner of it, and the roots will find the fastest, uh, path to that ammonium nitrate. That's not a, a situation it really experiences in nature. It has to, um, that takes a certain kind of intelligence, problem-solving ability. If you play the sound of caterpillars chomping on leaves for a plant, they will react to the sound, uh, and send, uh, either toxins or bad-tasting chemicals to that leaf-

   13. AHAndrew Huberman12:06

       Mm

   14. MPMichael Pollan12:06

       ... to defend themselves. They can respond to the sound of water, and they will, a- and their, if they f- if they feel, if they hear water running through a pipe, they will Go down. They have like 20 senses.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman12:17

       Wow.

   16. MPMichael Pollan12:17

       We have five or six. They can sense gravity, which we can't do. They, they can sense pH. They can sense, um, uh, whether nutrient levels are on a, a positive gradient or a negative gradient. I mean, it's remarkable. One of the, uh, to me, most curious things about plants is that they respond to the same anesthetics we do. Now, you might think, what does it mean to put a plant out? Um, aren't they already out? [laughs] But actually, they're just slow. They have behaviors. They're just very slow. So you take a, you take a plant with a really fast behavior, like a Venus flytrap, and you put it in a bell jar, and you put some anesthetic gas in, xenon gas or, or any number of, uh, you know, anything you can put in gas form, and they will not respond to, uh, an insect crossing their threshold, where normally they would clamp down. So that raises a really interesting question. What exactly are they losing when they are under? We would say consciousness, but that's a long way to go. I mean, I don't use the word consciousness for plants.

   17. AHAndrew Huberman13:25

       Mm-hmm.

   18. MPMichael Pollan13:25

       Although I've met scientists who do. But I would say that's sentience. That, that, that it, that, that there's a loss of sentience that's happening when, when they, uh, are anesthetized. But as you know, anesthetics are really weird. We don't even know how they work on us, right?

   19. AHAndrew Huberman13:39

       Right.

   20. MPMichael Pollan13:39

       I mean, xenon gas is inert gas, and it puts you out? How does that work?

   21. AHAndrew Huberman13:44

       Does it scare anyone going in for surgery? The anesthesia- anesthesiologists have gotten much better at it, so-

   22. MPMichael Pollan13:49

       Yes, they know what they're doing [laughs]

   23. AHAndrew Huberman13:50

       They know what they're doing.

5. 13:52 – 20:49

   Sponsors: Eight Sleep & Rorra

   1. AHAndrew Huberman13:52

      I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Eight Sleep. Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity. Eight Sleep just launched the Pod 6, which is their most advanced sleep system. The Pod 6 is half the size of their previous models, it's 20% faster with its cooling and heating, and it has nine times as many sensors for tracking your sleep. The reason why Eight Sleep is so effective at improving your sleep quality and duration is because it helps control your core body temperature. And the reason for that is that in order to fall and stay deeply asleep, your core body temperature has to drop by about one to three degrees. And to wake up feeling completely refreshed and energized, you actually want your body temperature to be increasing in the final hours of your sleep. Eight Sleep automatically regulates the temperature of your bed throughout the night and is monitoring your sleep and dynamically adjusting the temperature of your sleep environment so you get the maximum amount of deep sleep and rapid eye movement sleep. I've been sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover for nearly five years now, and with each new iteration of Eight Sleep, it gets better and better at figuring out what my body needs in order to get the best possible night's sleep. And of course, it provides me excellent data about just how much deep and rapid eye movement sleep I got. If you would like to try Eight Sleep, go to eightsleep.com/huberman to get up to $200 off their new Pod 6. Eight Sleep ships to many countries worldwide, including Mexico and the UAE. Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman to save up to $200. Today's episode is also brought to us by Rorra. Rorra makes what I believe are the best water filters on the market. It's an unfortunate reality, but tap water often contains contaminants that negatively impact our health. In fact, a 2020 study by the Environmental Working Group estimated that more than 200 million Americans are exposed to PFAS chemicals, also known as forever chemicals, through drinking of tap water. These forever chemicals are linked to serious health issues such as hormone disruption, gut microbiome disruption, fertility issues, and many other health problems. The Environmental Working Group has also shown that over 122 million Americans drink tap water with high levels of chemicals known to cause cancer. It's for all these reasons that I'm thrilled to have Rorra as a sponsor of this podcast. I've been using the Rorra countertop system for almost a year now. Rorra's filtration technology removes harmful substances, including endocrine disruptors and disinfection byproducts, while preserving beneficial minerals like magnesium and calcium. It requires no installation or plumbing, it's built from medical-grade stainless steel, and its sleek design fits beautifully on your countertop. In fact, I consider it a welcome addition to my kitchen. It looks great, and the water is delicious. If you'd like to try Rorra, you can go to rorra.com/huberman and get an exclusive discount. Again, that's Rorra, R-O-R-R-A.com/huberman. Can we go at self versus other as maybe one potential window into this? I, I don't wanna make any assumptions, but when I think about the consciousness problem, I, I think most people know that they are them, and they know what's not them. And, uh, maybe a decent analogy is when nerve cells grow, they know the difference between them and other cells. So at the cellular level, you know, this is already set up. And in fact, y- I love your example of the, the root growing towards the fertilizer because you can give a nerve cell a simple rule, all nerve cells a simple rule, which is essentially grow out as far as you can-

   2. MPMichael Pollan17:18

      Mm-hmm

   3. AHAndrew Huberman17:18

      ... and connect with as many other nerve cells as you possibly can, and know the difference between you and other. And if you do that-

   4. MPMichael Pollan17:26

      Even within the same species.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman17:28

      Yeah, so i- you know, and there are some exceptions to this, but it turns out to be, it's not straightforward to build a brain, but you don't need a ton of signals. You need signals that say, "Grow here," and you need signals that say, "You may not grow here."

   6. MPMichael Pollan17:40

      Hmm.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman17:40

      What we call chemoattractants and chemo repellents. And then if you think about the, the, the dendrites and axons, the, the branches of the neurons, they often have these beautiful architectures.

   8. MPMichael Pollan17:49

      Yeah.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman17:50

      Those are set up by a simple rule of self-avoidance.

   10. MPMichael Pollan17:52

       Mm-hmm.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman17:52

       You, they, the branches know that they are, that they're in the same, of the same neuron, and they just keep growing, and they keep branching every time they get too close to one of their own. And then you end up with these beautiful architectures, depending on what other cells are doing that around you. That's how you get the, the, all these different cell types.

   12. MPMichael Pollan18:08

       The structure.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman18:09

       And there's other features to it, too. And I was shocked and excited to learn that that's kinda how tree roots do it, too.

   14. MPMichael Pollan18:14

       Yes, I was gonna say.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman18:15

       Right, so simple rules can build immense complexity.

   16. MPMichael Pollan18:18

       Very sim- yes.

   17. AHAndrew Huberman18:18

       That, that's, that's the, the point. And the self, recognizing self versus other, and then a simple rule of get as much stuff as you can, it sounds very selfish, right? Sets up a great system, actually, because Then everyone's doing that, and you end up with essentially a tiled system.

   18. MPMichael Pollan18:35

       Mm-hmm.

   19. AHAndrew Huberman18:35

       No tree, no neuron gets too much space.

   20. MPMichael Pollan18:38

       Right.

   21. AHAndrew Huberman18:38

       And while this is all very cellular and we're literally talking about the branches of cells, it's not, you know, thinking, I feel like when you get up to the whole organism, I know the difference between me and you, me and the microphone. These plants seem to know the difference between them and the fertilizer. So this-

   22. MPMichael Pollan18:56

       Well, they-

   23. AHAndrew Huberman18:56

       ... lack of confusion about what's me and what's not me-

   24. MPMichael Pollan18:58

       Yeah

   25. AHAndrew Huberman18:58

       ... seems to be, like, the most important rule that perhaps builds up to the consciousness thing. It's just perhaps.

   26. MPMichael Pollan19:04

       It's really an important rule, and you see it in plant roots, too, because if you put, uh, two plants that are related to one another, have some genetic connections, but are separate plants, they will share soil-

   27. AHAndrew Huberman19:18

       Hmm

   28. MPMichael Pollan19:18

       ... and grow together, and but if they're not related, even if they're the same species, they will compete. Ditto, you know, the plant that, um, th- when plants are shaded by another plant, they grow fast to get above it. But if they're shaded by themselves, closer to your example, they don't.

   29. AHAndrew Huberman19:38

       Hmm.

   30. MPMichael Pollan19:38

       They know. Like, well, that's, we're get- we're getting the light over there, so I don't have to go there. But yeah, I think the self in others is, is, is a key rule, and, and I, I completely agree that you can take a set of very simple rules and build a very complex creature from it. How that gets you to consciousness, I mean, self in other is an important part of consciousness, although... And I talk about the self as kind of the most elaborate or advanced manifestation of consciousness. It turns out you can have consciousness without a self, and that's, um, uh, you know, I mean, meditators know this. Um, psychedelics give you and it can give you an experience of consciousness without a self. I think we have it every morning when we wake up. There's that 500 milliseconds, you know, when you're reconstituting, like, "Who am I? Where am I? Oh, you know, here I am." And it's 750 milliseconds if you're in a hotel room, [laughs] as I realized-
6. 20:49 – 27:37

   Plants, Communication, Sentience, Symbiosis

   1. AHAndrew Huberman20:49

      Going back to the, the plants and their intelligence, you know, I spent a little bit of time with people in the plant medicine community. Not a lot. I'm not a, you know, like a heavy psychonaut or anything.

   2. MPMichael Pollan20:58

      Mm-hmm.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman20:58

      But there does seem to be this understanding there, and I, I don't think it's just conjecture. I think it's a real understanding of people who spend time in the jungle, who spend time with plant medicines. Even pharmacists in this country will tell you that most drugs were bioprospected-

   4. MPMichael Pollan21:13

      That's right

   5. AHAndrew Huberman21:13

      ... from the jungle. Big pharma are isolated compounds synthesized, you know, um, as you know, uh, from jungle plants and other plants. So there's this notion that the plants actually can sense us, and that they're communicating with us. I know this sounds really wacky, but we can certainly see them.

   6. MPMichael Pollan21:33

      Hmm.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman21:33

      We can smell them. They can have, you know, odor effects on us. Uh, some are poisonous, some are delicious, and, and wonderful for, for us. They're nourishing. What do you think about this sort of cross-species communication? Do you think it's a, a real thing, having spent some time... You spent a lot of time on, about y-

   8. MPMichael Pollan21:51

      Yeah, I think about plants-

   9. AHAndrew Huberman21:52

      Writing about and thinking about plants

   10. MPMichael Pollan21:52

       ... and I garden and all these things.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman21:54

       Yeah, like, like, my mom gardens, and she is convinced, and she's a very rational person, she is convinced that talking to the plants while she plants them has a real effect on the relationship between-

   12. MPMichael Pollan22:06

       Okay

   13. AHAndrew Huberman22:06

       ... her and these plants. I mean, she's not thinking that they can hear and understand the language, but that there's some sort of energetic transfer there.

   14. MPMichael Pollan22:14

       Yeah.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman22:14

       And I don't think she's alone. People who garden have a relationship to the plants, and I certainly feel this way about my dog, to some extent my fish, although-

   16. MPMichael Pollan22:22

       Mm-hmm

   17. AHAndrew Huberman22:22

       ... to a lesser extent. So I don't think it's entirely crazy.

   18. MPMichael Pollan22:26

       I don't think it's crazy. I think that, um, I haven't had that experience myself. I, I did have an experience, and this was, talk about plant medicine, on s- on psilocybin that I describe in my book of, um, feeling that the plants in my garden were conscious and, um, aware and returning my gaze, and they were very benevolent. I took good care of them. [laughs]

   19. AHAndrew Huberman22:50

       That's good.

   20. MPMichael Pollan22:51

       And-

   21. AHAndrew Huberman22:51

       Otherwise, it could get scary. [laughs]

   22. MPMichael Pollan22:53

       Yeah.

   23. AHAndrew Huberman22:53

       Yeah.

   24. MPMichael Pollan22:53

       And I didn't know what to do with that. I mean, there's a whole question with insights you have on psychedelics, like do they have any value, and how do you judge their value? And in my case, I thought back to William James, who had written in, in Varieties of Mystical Experience, uh, that you can't really judge the veracity of a, of a big insight on a mystical experience because we don't know enough. But there are two ways to think about it. Is it a useful thing? Is it pragmatic to believe that? And that's one argument in favor. And the other is treat it as a hypothesis-

   25. AHAndrew Huberman23:29

       Hmm

   26. MPMichael Pollan23:29

       ... and see if you can find other ways of knowing, scientific or, or otherwise, that could, uh, support that idea, and that's what got me into plant, um, you know, learning about plant intelligence and plant sentience. We are in relationship with plants, domesticated plants in particular. I think they manipulate us in various ways. But it's, it's not at the level of the individual plant. It's at the level of the, this, the evolution of the species. So, um, you know, corn came to dominate the landscape in much of the world because it figured out what we wanted from it. And when I say figured out, I mean purely by trial and error. Cannabis, too. Cannabis was, you know, this plant, you know, located in Western China, I guess, and now it's everywhere. And the reason it did is it learned that we respond... I- I- If it produced this chemical called THC, it was gonna get carried around the world and reproduced. And so I, I, I think we're in this symbiotic relationship with plants, in that they, they do manipulate us. Th- They're, um, geniuses at biochemistry, as you suggest, you know, and that's a function of the fact that they can't get up and run away, right?

   27. AHAndrew Huberman24:44

       Mm-hmm.

   28. MPMichael Pollan24:44

       They're rooted. They're sessile, as it's called. And so instead of Consciousness like we have and mo- and, uh, the ability to move around, they, they develop chemicals, this incredible suite of chemicals, and they hit on some chemicals that happen to change our consciousness, and this has been one of the most successful, um, strategies. Uh, coffee and tea are, are great examples. They didn't originally make these chemicals for us. They're probably defense chemicals. But what's interesting about the defense chemicals that they produce is that they're not... They don't kill anything. I mean, caffeine might kill insects, some insects, but somewhere along the line, they learned that it was better to just kind of fuck with your mind than kill you outright, because if they killed you outright, you would very quickly develop resistance, right?

   29. AHAndrew Huberman25:38

       Mm-hmm.

   30. MPMichael Pollan25:38

       You'd select for resistant members of the species. The way I learned this, it was courtesy of my cat, Frank. Frank had a real catnip problem, and, uh, every night [chuckles] Frank... Uh, I would go down to my garden to, you know, harvest some lettuce or something like that, and I had a catnip plant, and this is in a fenced garden. And Frank would follow me and look at me, and he needed to be reminded where the catnip was. It's like, you know, why don't you know where it is? Because he would get so wrecked on catnip that he would, he would forget, and like that's a brilliant strategy on the part [chuckles] on the part of the, um, the plant to get your predator to forget where you are.
7. 27:37 – 34:32

   Self-Awareness, Time; Xenobots, Instinct

   1. MPMichael Pollan27:37

      did not.

   2. AHAndrew Huberman27:38

      Mm-hmm. I mean, I think about dogs a lot 'cause I love them, and I'm told that dogs descended from wolves that figured out that if they were kind enough and they were patient enough, they might get scraps of food.

   3. MPMichael Pollan27:52

      Right.

   4. AHAndrew Huberman27:52

      And eventually, that led to the domestication and the expansion of all these different breeds of dogs. I mean, I think that's essentially-

   5. MPMichael Pollan27:58

      Yeah

   6. AHAndrew Huberman27:58

      ... the story. So and they're not getting together and having a little, you know, backroom conversation like we've almost got them, but, but they [chuckles] ... So and that's certainly been advantageous for the domestic dog. Um, they're very well-treated, better than some humans, in fact.

   7. MPMichael Pollan28:12

      Yeah. And there are only 50,000 wolves left in this country, and how many dogs are there?

   8. AHAndrew Huberman28:16

      Right.

   9. MPMichael Pollan28:16

      It was a good strategy.

   10. AHAndrew Huberman28:17

       Right, yeah. And, and I feel like more people have dogs now than when I was growing up. Um-

   11. MPMichael Pollan28:22

       Well, COVID led to a, a lot of, uh-

   12. AHAndrew Huberman28:24

       Mm-hmm

   13. MPMichael Pollan28:24

       ... people getting dogs.

   14. AHAndrew Huberman28:25

       Yeah. So it's, it's, uh, most people don't get dogs to, to do work.

   15. MPMichael Pollan28:29

       Yeah.

   16. AHAndrew Huberman28:29

       They get dogs to be family members.

   17. MPMichael Pollan28:31

       Right.

   18. AHAndrew Huberman28:31

       And so they're really, they're really figuring stuff out.

   19. MPMichael Pollan28:33

       Yeah, they got us.

   20. AHAndrew Huberman28:34

       They got us.

   21. MPMichael Pollan28:35

       [laughs]

   22. AHAndrew Huberman28:35

       Um, but this figuring stuff out thing is, is, as it relates to consciousness is, um, maybe it brings us back to the definitions. So does that mean that you don't have to have self-awareness that you're doing it? Plants probably don't realize they're doing this. They're just following a rule that's scripted into their genome.

   23. MPMichael Pollan28:51

       Mm-hmm.

   24. AHAndrew Huberman28:51

       Um, try and get resources, feel good, not pain in the moment, and proliferate, take care of young, and so forth.

   25. MPMichael Pollan28:58

       Yeah.

   26. AHAndrew Huberman28:58

       So do you think that this consciousness, uh, of plants or of dogs or of humans can emerge through the simple flipping of switches that are hardwired into us, or do they have any say in this? Like, do they realize, um, that they're doing better for the next generation? Because plants don't get to see what happens to their seeds in-

   27. MPMichael Pollan29:20

       No

   28. AHAndrew Huberman29:20

       ... in most cases. Dogs don't really know what happens to their puppies once they're, you know, um, adopted out.

   29. MPMichael Pollan29:26

       Yeah.

   30. AHAndrew Huberman29:27

       Humans are unique in this way.
8. 34:32 – 40:28

   Microbiome, Influence & Symbiosis

   1. AHAndrew Huberman34:32

      case, I feel like this damn prefrontal cortex expansion that happened in humans. Uh, here's, here's where I get really, I lose a lot of sleep over this. [clears throat] And you're the perfect person to ask this.

   2. MPMichael Pollan34:43

      Uh-oh.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman34:43

      I've asked a few guests, but, um, I have this big problem lately, which is I think that... I know that humans got a lot more prefrontal cortex real estate, the area that lets us strategy set, understand context, integrate, imagine. Great. But I worry that it's, that we have enough of it that we perhaps have tricked ourselves into over, um, investing in our own importance-

   4. MPMichael Pollan35:08

      [laughs]

   5. AHAndrew Huberman35:09

      ... and our, and actually the whole meaning and, of being here. And, and here's where it gets to the microbiome. I'll try and make this very quick. Justin Sonnenburg, my colleague who you know-

   6. MPMichael Pollan35:22

      Yeah

   7. AHAndrew Huberman35:22

      ... at Stanford working on the microbiome, scared, I want to say the shit out of me, but then pun in- no pun intended, when he said, you know, these microbiota that live in all of us and create these critical chemicals for brain health and all, and it can impact our behavior, whether or not we feel sick or more energetic, more outgoing, I mean, there's this incredible array of-

   8. MPMichael Pollan35:40

      Yeah

   9. AHAndrew Huberman35:40

      ... ways they influence us. He said when we sh- shake hands like we did today, the second time in our lives, or when we, um, you know, if we kiss our ro- romantic partner or if we, um, you know, exchange a, a bill or a credit card swipe or something, it, w- microbiome is proliferating and moving.

   10. MPMichael Pollan35:58

       Yeah.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman35:58

       And I get really worked up lately in my own head about the possibility that all this stuff, like trying to go to Mars, um, trying to, uh, navigate the political barbed wire that is the United States and the world right now, wars, all of it, I worry that all of it is just the damn microbiota trying us to-

   12. MPMichael Pollan36:20

       [laughs]

   13. AHAndrew Huberman36:20

       ... trying to get us to interact it, with as many other people as possible, and they aren't sitting there chuckling, um, cackling, thinking about how w- we are losing out, uh, and suffering or feeling great while we do this, but I just worry that perhaps Sonnenburg's theory is right, which is we're literally just-

   14. MPMichael Pollan36:41

       Vessels

   15. AHAndrew Huberman36:41

       ... vehicles.

   16. MPMichael Pollan36:42

       Yeah.

   17. AHAndrew Huberman36:42

       And that keeps me up at night. I confess it does.

   18. MPMichael Pollan36:46

       Really?

   19. AHAndrew Huberman36:46

       But it also keeps me up at night because I can only have that thought, that concern, because of this excessive prefrontal cortex real estate.

   20. MPMichael Pollan36:54

       That's right.

   21. AHAndrew Huberman36:55

       Otherwise, I would just be busy trying to get my food and nourishment, proliferate, and so on. So that's two-

   22. MPMichael Pollan37:00

       [laughs]

   23. AHAndrew Huberman37:01

       So it sort of bookends the two sort of levels of quote-unquote sophistication, like higher order brain function in humans, building technologies, creativity, symphonies, spaceships. Poetry and on and on. We think it's so important, and it is-

   24. MPMichael Pollan37:17

       Yeah

   25. AHAndrew Huberman37:17

       ... but what we're, we're deluding ourselves. It's all just about getting the m- these microbiota, getting us to get them where they wanna go.

   26. MPMichael Pollan37:25

       You know, they've been around a lot longer than we have, right? I mean, we evolved in a world dominated by bacteria and other microbes. And, um, so from their perspective, I think it's a perspectival question, but from their perspective, this animal comes along that offers certain advantages, like can go all over the world, um, and maybe to outer space if they wanna go there. I don't think they'll do very well there, but... So there's a sense in which it's true, but it's also true that we're calling the shots in some ways from our perspective. But it, but we should realize, I mean, that's, the subtitle of Botany of Desire was A Plant's Eye View of the World, and there is a perspective, and it's just as legitimate, um, in which we are dupes [laughs] of these bacteria, and that, yes, they want us to shake hands. They want us to do all sorts of things because th- this extends their, their range. And they want us to be sociable, too.

   27. AHAndrew Huberman38:25

       Mm-hmm.

   28. MPMichael Pollan38:25

       You know, if we were all, you know, kind of shy and introverted, it would not serve their purposes, and they are influencing our moods. So it is kinda creepy in a way-

   29. AHAndrew Huberman38:35

       Mm

   30. MPMichael Pollan38:35

       ... but it's also kinda beautiful-
9. 40:28 – 47:17

   Meaning; Cortex vs Brain Stem, Homeostatic Feelings

   1. MPMichael Pollan40:28

      habitat.

   2. AHAndrew Huberman40:28

      Yeah, exactly. I'm only half kidding about this one, and I'm gonna try and steer off it so that I don't, you know, spiral into the, the concern about it. It's, because it's not really a concern. I think that it gets to another layer perhaps of this consciousness question, which is about meaning. You know, part of the function of the prefrontal cortex is that we can assign meaning to things.

   3. MPMichael Pollan40:50

      Yeah.

   4. AHAndrew Huberman40:50

      Right? Like, we both like Wendell Berry.

   5. MPMichael Pollan40:52

      Mm-hmm.

   6. AHAndrew Huberman40:52

      Uh, you know him better than I do, but we both have feelings associated, memories. I, uh, I can go as deep into this as, as I'll allow, allow myself to. Like, I, the, like, the feeling of the paper, like, is different for a Wendell Berry poem, only because that was my experience. So I can-

   7. MPMichael Pollan41:07

      Yeah

   8. AHAndrew Huberman41:07

      ... place all this meaning on top of things, and that's related to memory. It's, and so on. And we don't know that other species do that, right? Um, I like to think dogs and cats and apes do that.

   9. MPMichael Pollan41:19

      And elephants perhaps.

   10. AHAndrew Huberman41:20

       Yeah. Um, they definitely-

   11. MPMichael Pollan41:22

       Which more and more they're-

   12. AHAndrew Huberman41:23

       ... know self versus other.

   13. MPMichael Pollan41:24

       Yeah.

   14. AHAndrew Huberman41:25

       I mean, I, I try and break it down to that because I saw this, um, one of these beautiful na- nature documentaries where they were essentially talking about these male lions fighting and, you know, their hypothalamus looks a lot like ours, and we know the structure. Ventromedial hypothalamus, a subset of neurons there. If y- you know, mice have 'em, we have 'em, they have 'em. And these two male lions are basically trying to kill each other, but then there's another scene where one is getting attacked by hyenas, and all of a sudden a different switch gets flipped, where the lion, who was just arguably should let the other one die, understands this us-them thing and goes and essentially fights them off, and, and it's very dramatic, and the hyenas are, the hyenas are trying to castrate the lions. It's, it's like a, it's as brutal as nature gets in that moment, but also as beautiful as it gets, because it illustrates that two members of the same species that are trying to kill each other, when one is under threat, all of a sudden-

   15. MPMichael Pollan42:17

       Yeah

   16. AHAndrew Huberman42:18

       ... the contingency changes.

   17. MPMichael Pollan42:19

       Yeah.

   18. AHAndrew Huberman42:20

       So they have enough prefrontal cortex to take the same circuitry, it's still aggression, and now direct it in a new way.

   19. MPMichael Pollan42:25

       But they redefined the us, right?

   20. AHAndrew Huberman42:27

       That's right.

   21. MPMichael Pollan42:28

       The, the I is now plural.

   22. AHAndrew Huberman42:30

       Yeah, so it's dynamic. And-

   23. MPMichael Pollan42:31

       Yeah

   24. AHAndrew Huberman42:31

       ... the reason I'm asking this, I'd love your thoughts on this, but I'm s- seeding a question about collective consciousness. And, and so this us-them thing within and across species to me feels like a, a critical gate for, for getting closer to understanding what is consciousness, at least for me. Maybe I'm too simplistic about it.

   25. MPMichael Pollan42:51

       I mean, I guess I'd attack it from another direction, which is, you know, you've been talking about the cortex, and yeah, the cortex is very cool, and we have a lot of that real estate, and that's sort of what sets us apart. And for a long time it was believed that consciousness surely, as this advanced human achievement, 'cause remember, we didn't think anybody else was conscious for hundreds of years, right? Since Descartes, we had a monopoly on consciousness. It's only, I think, in 1970, the first experiment mirror test, uh, on a, on a chimp, and we started thinking, "Oh, these primates are conscious also." I mean, we, it... That's a fairly recent, that's 50 years ago.

   26. AHAndrew Huberman43:31

       Yeah.

   27. MPMichael Pollan43:31

       55 years ago. It was assumed that consciousness was a cortical phenomenon. There is a, another line of research though that I've been, that I was persuaded by, um, starting with, uh, Antonio Damasio in the '90s and going through Mark Solms more recently, uh, he's a South African psychiatrist and neuroscientist who's a kind of protege of Damasio's, uh, suggesting that actually consciousness doesn't begin with thought in the cortex, but with feeling in the brain stem-

   28. AHAndrew Huberman44:03

       Hmm

   29. MPMichael Pollan44:03

       ... or feelings registered in the brain stem. And the reason we have consciousness according to this theory is, um, because there are these homeostatic set points and, and that the... Well, back up a little. The brain exists to keep the body alive. We forget that.

   30. AHAndrew Huberman44:18

       Yeah.
10. 47:17 – 48:36

    Sponsor: AG1

    1. MPMichael Pollan47:17

       to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1. AG1 just launched their newest formulation called AG1 Pro, and right now you can get an extra 20% off your first subscription. AG1 takes the clinically backed AG1 formula, which is a blend of vitamins, minerals, probiotics, and adaptogens and adds three important new ingredients: creatine monohydrate, calcium HMB, and zinc carnosine. It has five grams of creatine monohydrate to support muscle strength and performance, along with brain health. Calcium HMB to support muscle recovery and reduce muscle breakdown, and zinc carnosine to support and improve the lining of your gut. Some of these ingredients I personally was already taking separate from the AG1 formula, so it's great to see all three of them now in the new AG1 Pro. As you may know, I've been taking AG1 every single day for about 14 years now. That means I discovered it and started taking it daily long before I even knew what a podcast was. I continue to take it and back it here on the podcast because it is an excellent formula, and it's now even better with the AG1 Pro formula. For a limited time, you can get an extra 20% off your first subscription to AG1 Pro by going to drinkag1.com/huberman and using the code BACK2ROUTINE. So that's with a numeral two. Back, numeral two, routine. Just go to drinkag1.com/huberman. I feel like the, one of the

11. 48:36 – 57:21

    Body & Brain Communication, Vagus Nerve

    1. MPMichael Pollan48:36

       challenges of being human is that people experience the world differently enough, it seems. Uh, right at the level of emotions, let's just use that as an example. Some people, uh, I've actually seen this in, uh, comments on Instagram, so it has to be true, right? [laughs] Um, no, but somebody once said in a, in a comment and it really stuck with me, you know, that they think in feels. And I thought, "Oh, this sounds like a bunch of woo stuff." Yeah.

    2. AHAndrew Huberman49:00

       But I thought maybe some people really do experience things more somatically. Okay. Check that box. I totally accept that. And maybe the language labels of emotion for one person are more crude than for another. Lisa Feldman Barrett verified-

    3. MPMichael Pollan49:15

       Yeah

    4. AHAndrew Huberman49:15

       ... that in cultures where there are many, many different Words for types of sadness. I think that she told me that the, that in Japan, there's a specific word for the type of sadness that you experience when you got a bad haircut.

    5. MPMichael Pollan49:27

       [laughs] I love it.

    6. AHAndrew Huberman49:28

       Amazing. Which also helps people avoid global statements like, "I'm feeling depressed," when in fact they're feeling low. And when they say they're depressed in certain cultures, it really means they are depressed.

    7. MPMichael Pollan49:41

       Right.

    8. AHAndrew Huberman49:41

       So nuance is, is very important, but that's coming top-down through language.

    9. MPMichael Pollan49:44

       And that's how culture interacts with biology, right?

    10. AHAndrew Huberman49:47

        Right.

    11. MPMichael Pollan49:47

        I mean, you know, there are different ways to interpret the same sensations. I think we learn this with, uh, you know, when you have kids, when they're m- when they melt down, they don't know if they're hungry or tired. It... And the parent has to teach them, "You know, you, you need to eat."

    12. AHAndrew Huberman50:03

        You need to eat or nap.

    13. MPMichael Pollan50:04

        Um, and-

    14. AHAndrew Huberman50:04

        You need to, yep

    15. MPMichael Pollan50:04

        ... yeah, we, and we see this with kids. They're getting the signals, but they don't have the mental equipment-

    16. AHAndrew Huberman50:09

        Yeah

    17. MPMichael Pollan50:09

        ... the cortical equipment to interpret-

    18. AHAndrew Huberman50:11

        Mm-hmm

    19. MPMichael Pollan50:11

        ... what's going on.

    20. AHAndrew Huberman50:13

        And so then the question is, are the signals from the body crude or refined? I'm, I'm not denying their importance. They're critically important.

    21. MPMichael Pollan50:20

        Yeah, yeah.

    22. AHAndrew Huberman50:20

        But we can't really look to the nerve networks and say, okay, the brain is sophisticated and the, and the neural innervation to and from the body is, um, not sophisticated.

    23. MPMichael Pollan50:31

        Mm.

    24. AHAndrew Huberman50:31

        I mean, it's as precise and, as the other. So the problem seems to be that we don't have language for it. So, like, if I'm feeling wholeheartedly full of joy, that's an easy one. If I'm feeling happy, I mean, I can, I can change my language and my expression, et cetera, but where I would, I think neuroscience really needs some help, and I think you're helping the, the conversation, which will inform experiments, is h- how is it that the body is communicating with the brain i- in ways that get us away from language labels? Because language labels are a cr- we created those.

    25. MPMichael Pollan51:08

        Yeah.

    26. AHAndrew Huberman51:09

        Right? This is very important, I think, for r- like, we made that up. Grunts, um, you know, uh, exhales around putrid smells and inhales around pleasant smells, that- that's the, those are the core components of, of language. I mean, words are just shaped exhales after all.

    27. MPMichael Pollan51:24

        Right. [laughs]

    28. AHAndrew Huberman51:24

        Which is amazing. Uh, by the way, I didn't come up with that statement. Uh, Eddie Chang, Chair of Neurosurgery at UCSF-

    29. MPMichael Pollan51:30

        I love it

    30. AHAndrew Huberman51:30

        ... who studies speech and language, is my childhood friend. He said, "You know..." He said it like, like Eddie. You know, he's very calm.
12. 57:21 – 1:08:14

    Collective Consciousness, Psychedelics, Ego, Awe

    1. AHAndrew Huberman57:21

       Maybe that takes us a little bit to psychedelics-

    2. MPMichael Pollan57:23

       Uh-huh

    3. AHAndrew Huberman57:24

       ... um, and collective consciousness. You know, one of the things that I'm, um, excited by, uh, is that I'm old enough now to have w- heard about the counterculture of the '60s.

    4. MPMichael Pollan57:34

       [laughs]

    5. AHAndrew Huberman57:35

       Grown up in its wake, um, experienced this health, wellness, public education thing that I do, touched into science and, and living in California, you know, I've spent some, a little bit of time at Esalen, read, read some books, and getting to know folks across these generations, and a lot of themes repeat themselves. And one of the themes that I think we need to overcome is the lack of adequate language or dismissing language that can act as a barrier rather than a, a conduit for, for understanding. So for instance, the words collective consciousness i- years ago were about, like, one love.

    6. MPMichael Pollan58:11

       Yeah.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman58:11

       Right? And that didn't work, um, in terms of convincing people to live in peace with all other humans and animals, clearly, sadly. So that doesn't mean collective consciousness isn't worth thinking about. But just like we say, you know, breathwork is too broad a term and, um, any w- I don't like anything that's so, that lumps so much that you lose critical, um, critical information. So if I say collective consciousness, I wanna be clear I'm not talking about one love, although that's a great goal.

    8. MPMichael Pollan58:43

       Mm-hmm.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman58:43

       Like, peace on Earth would be nice. I don't, I don't know that I'm gonna see it in my lifetime. I'm-

    10. MPMichael Pollan58:47

        Mm-hmm

    11. AHAndrew Huberman58:47

        ... getting frustrated. Probably not, but I'll hold out hope.

    12. MPMichael Pollan58:51

        We're going the wrong way. [laughs]

    13. AHAndrew Huberman58:53

        It's, it's, it's tough. It's, it's, it's tough, I, I have to say. It's, um, uh, too many repeating themes of the sort that I wouldn't like to see, um, are, are visible, but-

    14. MPMichael Pollan59:05

        So how do you define collective consciousness?

    15. AHAndrew Huberman59:06

        Well, I've heard the term.

    16. MPMichael Pollan59:07

        Mm-hmm.

    17. AHAndrew Huberman59:08

        Right? And when I think about it, I've not been to Burning Man, but I think about people who are trying to set aside me-ism-

    18. MPMichael Pollan59:16

        Yeah

    19. AHAndrew Huberman59:17

        ... in day-to-day interactions so that everybody wins.

    20. MPMichael Pollan59:20

        Mm-hmm.

    21. AHAndrew Huberman59:20

        It's this notion of everybody wins.

    22. MPMichael Pollan59:22

        Right.

    23. AHAndrew Huberman59:22

        And then I kind of try and pressure test that a little bit and say, "Is there a, a version of collective consciousness everybody wins that's based on truth?"

    24. MPMichael Pollan59:32

        Mm-hmm.

    25. AHAndrew Huberman59:32

        That's not based on lies. I think that's where it failed, because people are people, and there are bad humans, there are good humans, but it's a continuum, and people are fundamentally self-interested until they're okay, and then they can take care of others.

    26. MPMichael Pollan59:49

        Mm-hmm.

    27. AHAndrew Huberman59:49

        I think that's true of essentially all humans.

    28. MPMichael Pollan59:51

        Yeah.

    29. AHAndrew Huberman59:52

        How can we get to a collective consciousness, embracing the idea that I'm me, you're you, we could work together, but we have to also acknowledge the truth, that you have self-interests and I have self-interests?

    30. MPMichael Pollan1:00:02

        Right. Right.
13. 1:08:14 – 1:13:28

    Filter Theories of Consciousness

    1. MPMichael Pollan1:08:14

       there when I need it.

    2. AHAndrew Huberman1:08:14

       And then the, the other piece about consciousness inside versus outside, I think maybe it will be helpful for people, certainly it is for me to think about, um, brains and inside/outside stuff this way. Pit vipers can sense heat emissions, we can't. Honeybees can see UV light, we can't. We experience all of life through a pretty narrow set of filters.

    3. MPMichael Pollan1:08:35

       Yes.

    4. AHAndrew Huberman1:08:35

       I think when people hear the electromagnetic energies in the world, it sounds woo to some, but it's anything but. It's simply, just for clarity, uh, sake, certain wavelengths of light, certain sound waves that we can detect, mechanical touch, chemical sensing, combined to our experience. We're abstracting our visual image of each other sitting across this table. There's no-

    5. MPMichael Pollan1:08:56

       And it's limited by our senses.

    6. AHAndrew Huberman1:08:57

       That's right. I can only bring in what I can bring in. A different animal or even person would detect you differently. But the, the whole idea is that I'm, I'm putting all that together into an abstraction of Michael Pollan sitting here doing a podcast with me.

    7. MPMichael Pollan1:09:10

       Right.

    8. AHAndrew Huberman1:09:11

       So if in one model, consciousness is an abstraction that's created within our brains, we combine electromagnetic energies, whatever other faculties our neurons can, um, contribute to those, meaning, understanding, combining with, with sa- whatever, gut, whatever, and we create this consciousness experience. But you're saying there's another model where there's an energy out in, outside of us that somehow we're detecting that is already a consciousness, and so it's, we're not cr- we're not abstracting it in our minds. It's literally entering through presumably our senses.

    9. MPMichael Pollan1:09:51

       Mm-hmm.

    10. AHAndrew Huberman1:09:52

        Maybe there's an additional sense we're not even aware of, and we're experiencing it, but it's literally out there. I don't experience you as a bunch of photons, I experience you as a human.

    11. MPMichael Pollan1:10:03

        Right.

    12. AHAndrew Huberman1:10:04

        So I'm either putting it together inside or it's put together outside and gets, um, and gets recapitulated-

    13. MPMichael Pollan1:10:11

        Yeah

    14. AHAndrew Huberman1:10:11

        ... internally.

    15. MPMichael Pollan1:10:11

        These are called, uh, filter theories of consciousness.

    16. AHAndrew Huberman1:10:13

        Mm.

    17. MPMichael Pollan1:10:14

        And the implication of them, uh, Henri Bergson, the French philosopher, was a exponent of this, and Aldous Huxley, um, uh, believed this and talked about it in Doors of Perception, that he had ha- had some access to this field. And, and, and for him, it was psychedelics. It was an, a mescaline experience that convinced him of this. And the, the idea was that there's more consciousness out there than we can handle- [laughs]

    18. AHAndrew Huberman1:10:40

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

    19. MPMichael Pollan1:10:40

        ... and that, um, there is a filter or, or what, what Huxley called a reducing valve, and it basically admits the, what he called the measly trickle of consciousness we need to survive.

    20. AHAndrew Huberman1:10:53

        God, that's brilliant, because if we took in all the-

    21. MPMichael Pollan1:10:55

        We would be overwhelmed

    22. AHAndrew Huberman1:10:56

        ... all the wavelengths of light, for instance-

    23. MPMichael Pollan1:10:58

        Exactly

    24. AHAndrew Huberman1:10:58

        ... I wouldn't be able to see. I'd be overwhelmed with whatever that would look like or feel like.

    25. MPMichael Pollan1:11:04

        Yeah.

    26. AHAndrew Huberman1:11:04

        I, I can't use that.

    27. MPMichael Pollan1:11:05

        No. Our senses are limiting. Uh, they're not, they're not as expansive as they might be. And, and your example of the bees are right. There's all, all these spectrums of light we can't see. It's also worth remembering that it, it was only like, what, 120 or 150 years ago that we learned there was an electromagnetic field that, you know, that you could actually use to convey information, and it's invisible. I mean, that's pretty heady stuff right there. So their thinking is, well, there might be another field. And didn't we just learn about this other, um, body system? There's lymph and blood, and there's a third one. What is it called?

    28. AHAndrew Huberman1:11:39

        Oh, yeah. There's like this syncytium thing.

    29. MPMichael Pollan1:11:41

        Yes.

    30. AHAndrew Huberman1:11:42

        It's like a thin sheet that runs through the body that acupuncturists seem to have known about for a very long time.
14. 1:13:28 – 1:15:06

    Sponsor: Function

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:13:28

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15. 1:15:06 – 1:21:27

    AI, Consciousness, Feelings; Memory; Quantum Effects

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:15:06

       It's a super intriguing idea. I, I sometimes wonder if AI will tell us what consciousness is in a way that-

    2. MPMichael Pollan1:15:13

       Well, in a way-

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:15:13

       ... we aren't able to solve. And some people might say, "Well, that's just very, you know, pro-AI," but, I mean, humans have been putting their heads together around these sets of problems for a long while. I do think we're at a new vista now.

    4. MPMichael Pollan1:15:25

       Oh, we're, we're stuck. We're absolutely stuck.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:15:27

       You know?

    6. MPMichael Pollan1:15:27

       And the effort to make a conscious AI, which is underway, I mean, there are, there are individuals in some companies who are trying to make it conscious, not just intelligent, and those are not the same things. If they fail or succeed, they're gonna teach us important things about consciousness.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:15:42

       Mm-hmm.

    8. MPMichael Pollan1:15:43

       For example, if it truly is about feelings, and that's where consciousness originates, feelings depend on having a body, a vulnerable body, and possibly on our mortality. Are computers gonna g- have feelings? I don't think so. I, uh... and I think a computer simulation of a feeling is very different than a simulation of a thought, which is as good as a real thought. You know?

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:16:05

       Mm-hmm.

    10. MPMichael Pollan1:16:06

        It can play chess or Go or whatever.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman1:16:07

        Mm-hmm.

    12. MPMichael Pollan1:16:08

        So if they succeed in making a, a conscious AI, it'll, it'll discount the feeling idea. I don't think they can. I, you know, as long as we're dealing with silicon computers, the idea that you could have a conscious, uh, computer is based on a faulty metaphor of the brain as a computer. And, I mean, you know enough neuroscience to, to, to, to see the... Yes, it does some computations, but take the distinction between hardware and software. That doesn't really exist in brains. Well, that's a key thing about computers.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman1:16:43

        Mm-hmm.

    14. MPMichael Pollan1:16:44

        And neurons are not just on or off. They're not simply transistors. They're affected by chemicals and oscillations. There's a wonderful quote from, uh, Norbert Wiener, who said that the, um, "The price of metaphor is eternal vigilance." And I think this metaphor of the brain as computer is, uh, is... We're not being vigilant about that metaphor at all.

    15. AHAndrew Huberman1:17:03

        Mm-hmm.

    16. MPMichael Pollan1:17:04

        I don't think... I think it falls apart if you push on it.

    17. AHAndrew Huberman1:17:06

        I also think computers are clearly not brains, even in the most modern iterations of AI, for the simple reason, uh, at least one simple reason, which is our brains create memories in one or two structures, but then they export them to a bunch of other areas, and computers have a memory center. Distributed memory is-

    18. MPMichael Pollan1:17:28

        Mm-hmm

    19. AHAndrew Huberman1:17:28

        ... you know, it doesn't exist in most computers now.

    20. MPMichael Pollan1:17:31

        But also, that memory ha- makes a physical change in the brain, right?

    21. AHAndrew Huberman1:17:34

        That's right.

    22. MPMichael Pollan1:17:34

        I mean, your... and your brain's different than mine 'cause it was pruned very differently because of life experiences. So if you had a computer where the hardware was being constantly changed, it would be useless.

    23. AHAndrew Huberman1:17:45

        Yeah, there are these, um, issues in neuroscience that never really get resolved. One of the things that's perplexing to me, maybe you have some insight on this, is there were two labs, Susumu Tonegawa's lab at MIT, he's got a Nobel, and Mark Mayford's lab at Scripps, both essentially ran the same experiment where they used an animal model where you could, um, the animals would learn something, and then you could capture which neurons were activated during the learning and were critical for the expression of that behavior. And you'd say neuron A, B, C, D, they fired in a certain order, and it was those neurons. You could... And then you could go back and actually replay those neurons, and you found that if you played them in the exact same sequence, you had the same behavior.

    24. MPMichael Pollan1:18:22

        You have the same behavior.

    25. AHAndrew Huberman1:18:23

        Here's the problem. You could play those neurons backwards or all at once and get the exact same behavior. So this throws a serious wrench-

    26. MPMichael Pollan1:18:30

        Wow

    27. AHAndrew Huberman1:18:30

        ... into our understanding of the brain. The notion that you need things firing in a particular sequence was completely crapped on by those set of experiments. I mentioned the Nobel, even though Susumu got it for immunology. He's a very smart guy. Mark's a very smart guy. So these papers have stood the test of time. But it would be like if I said, "Oh, you know, this is the, the, the keys that you play in a song, and it sounds like the song." Where then I bang on all of them-

    28. MPMichael Pollan1:18:52

        You play them in any... Yeah

    29. AHAndrew Huberman1:18:53

        ... and you still get the song. So our whole notion of the temporal ordering of firing of neurons being important for, for memories is like, it's complete horseshit. It also turns out that every one of those neurons is participating in a bunch of other memories, and so some of them are... That's great, because that's great allocation of-

    30. MPMichael Pollan1:19:11

        Yeah
16. 1:21:27 – 1:27:08

    Childhood, Gardening, Interacting with Nature

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:21:27

       about you? Uh, and can I get some advice from you?

    2. MPMichael Pollan1:21:29

       [laughs]

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:21:29

       And can our listeners perhaps get some advice from you? Uh, you've written 10 books, and I'm sensing a thread through all of them about the natural world, about us, how we re- how those relate-

    4. MPMichael Pollan1:21:40

       Yeah

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:21:41

       ... and coming to some better understanding of self and relating to the world in a more benevolent way.

    6. MPMichael Pollan1:21:47

       Mm-hmm.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:21:47

       That's, that's my export, but I'm su- I know there's much more to you. But it dawned on me as we were sitting down, I, I think the world knows very little about you, and maybe that's intentional. But I just wanna know, when you were younger, were you, were you sort of intrigued by or drawn to flora and fauna? Were you sort of, like, thinking about the humans in a certain way? It, it, it just strikes me that you have a very, um, it's gonna sound, uh, like a scientist said it, but a very interdigitated way of thinking about us them.

    8. MPMichael Pollan1:22:17

       [laughs]

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:22:17

       Like, you understand the difference between a human and a plant and a, and an animal, which is great, but you also s- find these incredible points of connectivity that are really geared towards self-understanding and therefore helping the relationship. So can you trace that back to, like, something in particular? Or is that just-

    10. MPMichael Pollan1:22:40

        Yeah

    11. AHAndrew Huberman1:22:40

        ... your d- or is this just downloaded into you?

    12. MPMichael Pollan1:22:43

        No. I, uh, so I started gardening at a very young age, uh, accidentally. I had an experience when I was four or five. I grew up on Long Island, suburban Long Island, and I loved watermelon. And like everybody, thinking about the pits, you know, the seeds, when you swallow them or don't swallow them, and, and my mother would always encourage me to spit them out. And I did that, and I, I took some watermelon seeds, and I just covered it with dirt. I was, like, really young, and then forgot about it. And that must have been May or June, and I came back in September, and lo and behold, there was a watermelon. It was like the size of a football, but to me, it was huge. I was just so blown away by this, and it was, it was just a, you know, formative moment. And I was so excited. I picked, I picked it, and I was running, and we had a concrete patio behind our house, and I, I had to show my mom this, this, uh, thing that I'd grown. I hadn't really done anything. And I tripped and fell, and the watermelon just completely splattered, um, all over the patio. But I went on. I planted a garden when I was, like, eight next to the house. I called it a farm. Whenever I could grow three or four strawberries, I'd put them in a Dixie cup and sell them to my mom. So it was a going concern.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman1:24:05

        Mm.

    14. MPMichael Pollan1:24:05

        So gardening was a really big part of it, and, and, you know, that puts you in relation to nature-

    15. AHAndrew Huberman1:24:11

        Mm-hmm

    16. MPMichael Pollan1:24:11

        ... an active relationship to nature. Most of us have a very kind of observer, um, type relationship. We admire it from a distance on vacation, you know? Um, but gardening thrusts you right in the middle of it, and you have to make decisions, uh, and the, your plants have interests. You know, you're not the only interested creature here. Your plants have interests, and to the extent you can satisfy their interests, they're gonna give you what you're, what you, what you want. So that, you know, eventually, years later, I wrote, my first book was about that. And, um, I realized what was going on in the garden is no different than what goes on on the farm. So it was very easy to go from, uh, I started writing these essays about what was going on in my garden and using that as a laboratory. We ch- Americans generally go to the wilderness to think about nature or the desert or the forest. And I actually think the garden at this point is a, a more valuable laboratory 'cause we've saved all the land we're gonna save, you know? I think 8% of the American, uh, landscape has been, we've locked it up, thrown away the key, which is great. Although, actually, Trump's trying to open the lock again.

    17. AHAndrew Huberman1:25:22

        He's trying to sell some of it.

    18. MPMichael Pollan1:25:23

        Yeah, in Utah. Uh

    19. AHAndrew Huberman1:25:24

        I will say, just as a quick note, if th- like, this angers me so much. My friends who are hunters-

    20. MPMichael Pollan1:25:32

        Mm-hmm

    21. AHAndrew Huberman1:25:32

        ... and, like, real outdoors people, um, w- were very excited about the protection of these lands, and now have, they're essentially pissed at all forms of government [laughs]

    22. MPMichael Pollan1:25:43

        [laughs]

    23. AHAndrew Huberman1:25:43

        Let's just put it that way, um, because they were promised something and it was taken-

    24. MPMichael Pollan1:25:48

        Yeah

    25. AHAndrew Huberman1:25:48

        ... away, and I, the, they're now truly outside the box of any political party. They will die before they let go of this land.

    26. MPMichael Pollan1:25:55

        Yeah.

    27. AHAndrew Huberman1:25:55

        And it-

    28. MPMichael Pollan1:25:55

        Well, hunters-

    29. AHAndrew Huberman1:25:55

        But it is really scary. It is truly scary. Um-

    30. MPMichael Pollan1:25:59

        Yeah, I know
17. 1:27:08 – 1:32:21

    Hope, Nature & Agency, Food Industry

    1. MPMichael Pollan1:27:08

       yet.

    2. AHAndrew Huberman1:27:08

       You also strike me as somebody who you think about these very high-level problems. Uh, I don't know when that came about, um, but clearly you're observant and you, and you think a lot. But many people who talk about psychedelics, write about psychedelics, and think about collective consciousness and, um, and are friendly with plants, and plants like them, they're not, like, feet on the ground. Like, so did, do you have, like, practical people in your lineage? Were you, were you taught... Like, 'cause gardening also is, has a practical aspect.

    3. MPMichael Pollan1:27:35

       Yeah.

    4. AHAndrew Huberman1:27:35

       You can't just wish the plants to grow.

    5. MPMichael Pollan1:27:37

       No.

    6. AHAndrew Huberman1:27:37

       You can't just dance around them and play them sound bowls. I'm not sa-... I think, listen, I think sound bowl therapy, we'll probably discover, has some very important effects on the nervous system, so I'm not being disparaging of it at all. But it's one thing to like these things and, and feel you have a relationship to them, um, but you've made great efforts to try and get many people, millions of people to, to appreciate and lean into these relationships in ways that can serve them and, and the world. So where does that come from?

    7. MPMichael Pollan1:28:05

       Well, I don't know exactly. I've been kind of surprised that a couple of my books have actually changed a public conversation around food and then psychedelics.

    8. AHAndrew Huberman1:28:16

       I think about The Omnivore's Dilemma. Well, it was very present in, you know, when I was going through, you know, college and, and around-

    9. MPMichael Pollan1:28:22

       Yeah

    10. AHAndrew Huberman1:28:22

        ... that time. I think it was a graduate-

    11. MPMichael Pollan1:28:24

        2006.

    12. AHAndrew Huberman1:28:24

        Okay, so it's, yeah, s- shortly, it was after, uh, college, but that book was everywhere, and the mantra from that book, right?

    13. MPMichael Pollan1:28:32

        Yeah.

    14. AHAndrew Huberman1:28:32

        You know? Um-

    15. MPMichael Pollan1:28:33

        Eat food. Not too much-

    16. AHAndrew Huberman1:28:34

        Mostly plants

    17. MPMichael Pollan1:28:35

        ... mostly plants.

    18. AHAndrew Huberman1:28:35

        Right?

    19. MPMichael Pollan1:28:36

        So I never, you know, I didn't set out to, um, start something, and, and certainly there were other important books that came out around the same period. Eric Schlosser's Fast Food Nation, and Marion Nestle wrote a book called Food Politics that was very influential.

    20. AHAndrew Huberman1:28:49

        The difference, I would say, they're great, and I, great admiration for them, but I would say that those were about what not to do.

    21. MPMichael Pollan1:28:56

        Yeah.

    22. AHAndrew Huberman1:28:56

        Like, this is bad, you know? And, um, and like, growing up, I read the one, was it, was Tom Robbins wrote a book from the Baskin-Robbins family?

    23. MPMichael Pollan1:29:03

        Yeah, yeah.

    24. AHAndrew Huberman1:29:04

        What was that book? I forget the title.

    25. MPMichael Pollan1:29:05

        Something about sugar.

    26. AHAndrew Huberman1:29:06

        But it was about, I mean, you read it and you're just like, the atrocities-

    27. MPMichael Pollan1:29:07

        Sugar is poison, yeah

    28. AHAndrew Huberman1:29:08

        ... of the, of the, of the meat industry. So there's-

    29. MPMichael Pollan1:29:10

        Oh, that one, yeah

    30. AHAndrew Huberman1:29:11

        ... so they're hard books to form a relationship to 'cause it's like a, they're ta- it's a bad relate- it's a great, they're great books, but about bad relationships.
18. 1:32:21 – 1:39:50

    Advocacy, Psychedelics, Food Industry

    1. MPMichael Pollan1:32:21

       ideas.

    2. AHAndrew Huberman1:32:21

       Sorry to hear about your father and why, why you had to step into that role, but the world's, um, fortunate that you did because when I look at the, the, the import- what I would call the important movements of the last 50, 60 years of, and I think psychedelics is one of them, and it... But when I say that, I want to be clear. I'm talking about neuroplasticity to make people feel and be better versions of themselves.

    3. MPMichael Pollan1:32:45

       Yeah.

    4. AHAndrew Huberman1:32:45

       May not come from psychedelics or even therapy or, or the somatics or breathwork or health and fitness, all of it, you know? I feel like where each of those, quote-unquote, movements reached its cliff was when the individual or individuals that were leading that movement were either too emotive and not practical enough. They weren't thinking about how they could export the knowledge in a way that people could really make use of it, um, that acknowledged the variety of truths that were out there, that people weren't all gonna just, like-

    5. MPMichael Pollan1:33:16

       Yeah

    6. AHAndrew Huberman1:33:16

       ... move to San Francisco or Big Sur, you know, that kind of thing.

    7. MPMichael Pollan1:33:19

       Right.

    8. AHAndrew Huberman1:33:19

       But that people couldn't be so practical and, and removed from thinking about new possibilities, new ways of humans being, that they, like, dismissed it. And I feel like we're, we are at an important repetition point where if we're gonna break through, I feel like those two things have to really, um, be married in the, in the movements. And, and I-

    9. MPMichael Pollan1:33:40

       Yeah

    10. AHAndrew Huberman1:33:40

        ... and I see it in you, and I'm, I'm, a w- you're like th- in your relationship to these things, at, so the practical side and the, it, you know, the, the clearly deep relationship to, to plants and the world.

    11. MPMichael Pollan1:33:52

        I mean, I do finally wanna push the world in one direction and not in another. I mean, and I, the, you know, I s- I mean, you know, that's considered advocacy in journalism, and I, I, I, I own up to it. Um, once I... I mean, there's a point when I'm starting on a subject where I don't know a lot, that I wouldn't pretend to know where the world should go or where the food industry should go. But at a certain point, you've, you've mastered the subject, and you, it would be disingenuous not to think that I think we need to move this way. Not that, you know, we had such success. I mean, I'm, I, I just wrote a new introduction to Omnivore's Dilemma, and I wish the book were more dated than it is. Um, it's, you know, the food system is still screwed up. I, I think we have more awareness of it.

    12. AHAndrew Huberman1:34:38

        Mm-hmm.

    13. MPMichael Pollan1:34:38

        People have a better idea where their food comes from. They're, they're, they're making the link between, um, what they're eating and their health in a way. Thanks to people like you, but a whole lot of other people. But we're still eating a terrible diet for the most part in this country. And, um, we still have a, a agriculture that is all about growing corn and soy, which are the building blocks of ultra-processed food, which is making us sick and killing us. Um, so we have a long way to go. In a way, we've made more progress with psychedelics, but-

    14. AHAndrew Huberman1:35:09

        Mm-hmm

    15. MPMichael Pollan1:35:10

        ... in the case of psychedelics, there was no opposition. I mean, there was some cultural opposition-

    16. AHAndrew Huberman1:35:14

        Mm-hmm

    17. MPMichael Pollan1:35:15

        ... you know, the, uh, you know, holdovers-

    18. AHAndrew Huberman1:35:16

        Nixon

    19. MPMichael Pollan1:35:16

        ... from the '60s. Yeah, the drug war and things like that.

    20. AHAndrew Huberman1:35:19

        He di- he didn't like drugs.

    21. MPMichael Pollan1:35:20

        No.

    22. AHAndrew Huberman1:35:20

        Now the, now the, the, the red side is all about ibogaine for veterans.

    23. MPMichael Pollan1:35:24

        It is the most amazing transformation.

    24. AHAndrew Huberman1:35:26

        The EMT Rick Perry self-described-- I like Rick. I get along with him. He's very bipartisan about this psychedelic thing, and he des- self-described... You said it, Rick. He calls himself a knuckle-dragging Republican who's into heart medicine.

    25. MPMichael Pollan1:35:39

        [laughs]

    26. AHAndrew Huberman1:35:39

        He used those, those words publicly-

    27. MPMichael Pollan1:35:41

        I love it

    28. AHAndrew Huberman1:35:41

        ... so I'm happy to repeat it.

    29. MPMichael Pollan1:35:42

        I love it.

    30. AHAndrew Huberman1:35:43

        He, he really wants these medicines to be available to all veterans who are experiencing PTSD and substance abuse issues, and he's worked very, very hard across the aisle to try and bring these things to legal, safe-
19. 1:39:50 – 1:44:52

    Sponsor: Mateina

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:39:50

       a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Mateina. Mateina makes my absolute favorite zero sugar cold brew yerba mate. In fact, I helped create the newest flavors. Listeners of this podcast know that yerba mate is my preferred caffeine source and has been for a long time. That's because yerba provides a smooth energy lift without giving you the jitters, and it has many other potential benefits, such as helping to regulate blood sugar, improving digestion, mild appetite suppression, and more. And I can tell you that having tried all the different brands of yerba, hot and cold, Mateina is my absolute favorite. So much so that I became a partial owner in the company. And the flavors we developed together, I have to say, are fantastic. Raspberry yuzu is probably my favorite, but I also like the mint flavor and I love the peach flavor. So I really can't pick just one. I love them all. In fact, I drink at least three cans of them every day, and you'll often see them on the table during my podcast recordings. If you wanna try Mateina, you can go to drinkmateina.com. You can also find Mateina at both Whole Foods and Sprouts market nationwide. And Mateina is now being sold at all Earth Bar locations nationwide. Earth Bar has also come up with a new Mateina smoothie called The Protocol that you can try for a limited time. I've tried it, and it's absolutely delicious. It has, of course, Mateina. It has fruits and vegetables. It's sweetened only with pineapple. It has collagen and whey protein. It's absolutely delicious. It's also beautiful. The colors are beautiful. So be sure to check out Mateina nationwide at Whole Foods, Sprouts, and now Earth Bar as well. Is the current administration with the emphasis, uh, on healthy eating that they, that they're out there with, is it, are they-

    2. MPMichael Pollan1:41:24

       They're not doing anything.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:41:25

       They're not doing it.

    4. MPMichael Pollan1:41:25

       No. I mean, RFK Junior has been talking a good game on this, but, um, meanwhile, the, the big beautiful bill, um, eliminated all sorts of farm to school and farm to, um, other institution, uh, supporting small agriculture, regenerative agriculture. They're cutting all that stuff while they talk about it. And, uh, the only change they've made on food after over two years has been getting food companies to voluntarily remove some dyes from cereal. I don't think that's that big a deal. I don't think dyes are a, a crucial health problem, and it's voluntary. So this administration is not gonna regulate anything. Um, and the changes we need in the food system, getting ultra-processed food out of the school lunch program, is gonna require regulations. Uh, and they're deregulating pesticides like crazy. Um-

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:42:19

       Yeah, that's concerning.

    6. MPMichael Pollan1:42:21

       Very concerning. So no, I, I don't think it's, uh, an honest effort. I-- but I do think what RFK Junior has done that is valuable is he surfaced this other constituency that we, we were not aware of. And these are mothers, many of whom have kids with serious illnesses that they're trying to treat with a better diet. And I met them without knowing it. When I was writing Omnivore's Dilemma, I was hanging out on Joel Salatin's farm. He's a very progressive farmer in, um, in Virginia, who has pioneered a kind of grass-based agriculture where he rotates different species over the same grasslands and, and grows amazing food, um, eggs and meat, uh, especially. And he's in the middle of nowhere. He's, like, 45 minutes from the interstate, and these people would show up on Saturdays to pick up their pastured chickens and, and-

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:43:14

       Yeah

    8. MPMichael Pollan1:43:14

       ... and I was wondering, like, "Who are these people, and how do they know about him?" And they were part of a whole network, and they were, they were these maha moms before they were called that. And, uh, they were members of something called the Weston Price Society-

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:43:30

       Mm-hmm

    10. MPMichael Pollan1:43:30

        ... um, which is, uh, a, a long story, but, um, promotes grass-based, uh, animal protein and, um, has been around since the '30s or so, um, and has a very big network that no one on the coast notices, but it's out there. And, uh, s- and I would talk to these mothers, and they, they, you know, they had their thing with seed oils and food as medicine, and, you know, th- they were not aligned with science always.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman1:43:57

        Right.

    12. MPMichael Pollan1:43:57

        But they were passionate about clean food and, um, uh, and were willing to drive 100 miles to get it then.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman1:44:04

        Wow.

    14. MPMichael Pollan1:44:04

        So Kennedy surfaced these people, and now they're engaged politically. And if the food movement can make common cause with them, and we've seen some, some early signs. There was a, a bill in Congress that the administration was supporting that would have exempted, uh, pesticide makers from, from lawsuits, all lawsuits [laughs] and, um, and it was in an appropriations bill. And, um, Chellie Pingree, who's a food movement leader and an organic farmer from Maine in Congress, she got together with MAHA activists and they got it stripped out of the bill, and they did it twice.

    15. AHAndrew Huberman1:44:42

        Great.

    16. MPMichael Pollan1:44:43

        So that's what we need. That's the kind-

    17. AHAndrew Huberman1:44:45

        Mm-hmm

    18. MPMichael Pollan1:44:45

        ... of politics. Just like psychedelics, right and left together-

    19. AHAndrew Huberman1:44:48

        Mm-hmm

    20. MPMichael Pollan1:44:48

        ... you can get things done.

    21. AHAndrew Huberman1:44:49

        Yeah, amen to that. I

20. 1:44:52 – 1:52:18

    Psychedelics, Ibogaine, Veterans, Politics; MDMA, Psilocybin; Risk

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:44:52

       w- w- and forever stamped in my brain is, you know, Rick Perry, and I forget who it was on the Democratic side, like literally holding hands. They're like, "We're for heart medicine," and this was at a veterans, um, benefit. Um, and it's interesting, similarly to... Well, in a, in a sort of parallel construction with, as you said, with the, whereas the food, uh, slow food and, and, you know, movement, um, healthy food movement used to be considered elitist and now it's not.

    2. MPMichael Pollan1:45:20

       Yeah.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:45:20

       In- the psychedelics thing used to be like bigster-

    4. MPMichael Pollan1:45:24

       Left

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:45:24

       ... hippies, very left-leaning.

    6. MPMichael Pollan1:45:25

       Right.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:45:25

       And what seems to have moved the most intense of all the psychedelics, ibogaine, looks like it's gonna cross the line as it into a true, um, supported therapeutic by the FDA. It's not there yet. Was the veterans community-

    8. MPMichael Pollan1:45:38

       Exactly

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:45:39

       ... which, of course, is right and left, but tends to lean right, if we're honest.

    10. MPMichael Pollan1:45:43

        Yeah.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman1:45:43

        And that's pretty remarkable.

    12. MPMichael Pollan1:45:44

        Yeah, it is.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman1:45:45

        So, you know.

    14. MPMichael Pollan1:45:45

        It is. And something I would not have foreseen.

    15. AHAndrew Huberman1:45:48

        No [laughs] no. And, and it's really to the credit, I think, of, of the veterans like, um, Marcus Luttrell and, and, um, Marcus Capone and, but also Rick. You know, I'll say, like, I, you know, um-

    16. MPMichael Pollan1:46:01

        Rick Perry

    17. AHAndrew Huberman1:46:01

        ... Rick Perry.

    18. MPMichael Pollan1:46:02

        But also I would add Rick Doblin.

    19. AHAndrew Huberman1:46:03

        And Rick Doblin. The Ricks.

    20. MPMichael Pollan1:46:05

        The Ricks.

    21. AHAndrew Huberman1:46:05

        Is what we're referring to.

    22. MPMichael Pollan1:46:06

        The two Ricks.

    23. AHAndrew Huberman1:46:06

        The Ricks. Two very different characters.

    24. MPMichael Pollan1:46:08

        I'll say.

    25. AHAndrew Huberman1:46:09

        Actually, here's a funny one about Rick Doblin, uh, that at this event he got up there and he, he said, uh... It was a room full of veterans. Um, a lot of SEALs, a lot of special- spec ops folks. And, um, and the first thing he said was that he was a conscientious objector [laughs] during the Vietnam War.

    26. MPMichael Pollan1:46:26

        [laughs]

    27. AHAndrew Huberman1:46:26

        And the room just went silent. And then I looked around and there were a lot of smiles. They appreciated his honesty.

    28. MPMichael Pollan1:46:31

        Honesty, yeah.

    29. AHAndrew Huberman1:46:32

        And, you know, and I, I adore, I adore him-

    30. MPMichael Pollan1:46:34

        The guy is nothing if not honest
21. 1:52:18 – 2:00:21

    Caffeine, Caffeine Fast, Health Benefits

    1. MPMichael Pollan1:52:18

       Yeah

    2. AHAndrew Huberman1:52:18

       ... yeah. Wild. I listened to, 'cause as I recall, it's only in audiobook, your book about, um, doing this absolutely stupid experiment. [laughs] No, I'm kidding. Uh, uh, but it was so awesome. I, I, I love this book where you quit caffeine, and, um, I drink a lot of caffeine. From the first time I took a sip of mate, I was like, "This completes me"-

    3. MPMichael Pollan1:52:41

       Wow

    4. AHAndrew Huberman1:52:41

       ... you know, in some way. You know, the s- the same way some people who drink alcohol feel, and-

    5. MPMichael Pollan1:52:45

       Yeah

    6. AHAndrew Huberman1:52:45

       ... I'm grateful it's caffeine and not alcohol.

    7. MPMichael Pollan1:52:48

       Much better drug.

    8. AHAndrew Huberman1:52:49

       Yeah. I, I think so. So... And 90% of the world's adults consume it every day and, and on and on, and, um, and I love it, and unless I've been sick, I, I don't really know life without caffeine. What do you-

    9. MPMichael Pollan1:53:02

       You should try it, though.

    10. AHAndrew Huberman1:53:03

        Yeah, so I was gonna say, what do you think an experiment like quitting caffeine for an extended period of time could do for somebody like me or for somebody listening that would perhaps allow the caffeine to be even-

    11. MPMichael Pollan1:53:15

        Better

    12. AHAndrew Huberman1:53:15

        ... a better experience-

    13. MPMichael Pollan1:53:16

        Yeah

    14. AHAndrew Huberman1:53:16

        ... after? Is that what it's about? Or what did you discover about consciousness? What did you... Seriously-

    15. MPMichael Pollan1:53:21

        Yeah

    16. AHAndrew Huberman1:53:21

        ... what did you discover about, um, your relationship to substances or work or focus or anything? What, what was revealed there? I read the book.

    17. MPMichael Pollan1:53:29

        Yeah.

    18. AHAndrew Huberman1:53:29

        I listened to the book, and I highly recommend it, as I do all your books, but-

    19. MPMichael Pollan1:53:32

        And it is in a print book too.

    20. AHAndrew Huberman1:53:33

        Oh, great.

    21. MPMichael Pollan1:53:34

        There's a... I, I subsequently put it in a book called This Is Your Mind On Plants, and, um, uh, which came out a couple years ago, and it's one of three chapters in that book. So caffeine is a really interesting drug. First of all, most of us don't think of it as a drug, um, but it is a drug to which most of us are addicted, and something like 90%, yeah, use it on a daily basis, whether it's in the form of coffee, tea or, or herb mate or a couple other substances. I interviewed Roland Griffiths, um, when I started writing about caffeine because before he got involved, he's, he's the, was the, uh, psychopharmacologist at Johns Hopkins who did the initial work on psilocybin and really launched the-

    22. AHAndrew Huberman1:54:12

        Mm-hmm

    23. MPMichael Pollan1:54:13

        ... psychedelic renaissance. And, um, but before he worked on psychedelics, he worked on caffeine. So I, I wanted to talk to him about it. And during this interview, he said, "You know, the only way you can really understand a drug that you're taking habitually is to get off it. You can't understand it until you, you... it's out of your system completely." So he proposed that I go on this caffeine fast. I started really young, like, eight or 10. It was a way to be with my dad. He would get up really early in the morning, and he got home very late at night. And as I said, he's sort of absent a lot of the time, but the time I could really connect with him was at breakfast. I'd get my... drag myself out of bed and have coffee with him. And, um, so my addiction started very early. It was very hard to get off. If you go cold turkey-

    24. AHAndrew Huberman1:54:59

        Yeah

    25. MPMichael Pollan1:54:59

        ... people describe flu-like symptoms. I just felt off. I could not focus. I felt like I had ADHD. I didn't feel myself, which is odd. And I couldn't write at all. I mean, it was so wired into my writing process. It was just forget it, you know? Th- that idea of sitting at a desk. And it was just really hard to do, to, to shake it. After a couple days, the symptoms started to subside, and I finally got to this point where I w- had no caffeine in my system, and I wasn't having tea either, and... But even then, I didn't feel like myself. And I thought, "Well, isn't that weird? You feel more yourself on a drug than not on the drug?" I just felt like I was somebody else. It was hard. I did it for about three months, and all the while, I'm researching caffeine and learning about it and learning, you know, it's, it's not bad for you. You can overuse it. It has a lot of very positive health effects up to seven or eight cups a day, and at that point, problems [laughs]

    26. AHAndrew Huberman1:56:02

        Mm-hmm

    27. MPMichael Pollan1:56:02

        ... begin. And some people get jittery on a lot less than that. Um, but for most people, it is addictive, but aside from, you know, jitteriness, if you get it, the, the negative effects are, are, are outweighed by positive effects. Helps people with Parkinson's, reduces blood pressure. I forget. I had a whole list of all the health benefits. It, it... There are a lot of he- And some of them are not tied to the caffeine, of course. There are also-

    28. AHAndrew Huberman1:56:28

        Mm-hmm

    29. MPMichael Pollan1:56:28

        ... very valuable polyphenols in coffee and tea, which are a great boon to the microbiome. But The day I got back on caffeine, my first cup, it was, it was just the best drug experience, better than any psychedelic experience I've had. It was so powerful. I was just flying. I had all this energy, and I came home and I cleaned my closet [laughs] which I, I never do. Uh, I, I cleaned up the garden. I just was just... I was a superman. It was just wonderful. And then I had another cup, and it was, like, not as special.

    30. AHAndrew Huberman1:57:04

        [laughs]
22. 2:00:21 – 2:02:18

    Zero-Cost Support, YouTube, Spotify & Apple Follow, Reviews & Feedback, Sponsors, Protocols Book, Social Media, Neural Network Newsletter

    1. AHAndrew Huberman2:00:21

       Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Michael Pollan. To learn more about his work and to find links to his many excellent books, including his most recent book on consciousness, please see the show note caption. If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us. In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple. And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review, and you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple. Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode. That's the best way to support this podcast. If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube. I do read all the comments. And if you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms. So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn. And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast. Again, it's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms. And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure. We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training. All of that is available completely zero cost. You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to Newsletter, and enter your email. And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody. Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Michael Pollan. And last, but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science. [outro music]

Episode duration: 2:02:18